The Athletic Hockey Show - Is Quinn Hughes on his way out of Vancouver?

Episode Date: December 8, 2025

With trade rumors swirling around Quinn Hughes in Vancouver, Max and Jesse are joined off the top of the show by The Athletic’s own Thomas Drance to discuss the star defenseman’s future with the Canucks and the direction of the franchise. Plus, the guys check in on the Norris, Vezina, and Jack Adams races and close things out with a look at some other potential trades involving the likes of Steven Stamkos, Jonathan Marchessault, and Tristan Jarry.Hosts: Max Bultman and Jesse GrangerWith: Thomas DranceExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Chris FlanneryWatch full episodes on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowJoin our Discord Server: https://discord.gg/VTm9VjkFSubscribe to The Athletic: https://theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show. Hey, everybody, Max Bolman here alongside Jesse Granger for another episode of the Athletic Hockey Show. We're going to be talking NHL awards today. But first, we are joined by Thomas Drance in Vancouver, where Drans are like the Canucks are somehow, despite being in second to last place, seem to be the story of the NHL every time I check right now. And it is almost entirely the side show of the Canucks right now. Yeah, this franchise, they specialize. in being never boring. If the results are not what we're talking about,

then we'll find something else. And the team seems to find a way to give it to us, right? And, you know, it's usually not nothing, right? Like, it's usually like the Lafair Bruce Boudreau. Or, hey, do you want trade rumors involving a Norris caliber defender, one of the three best defensemen on planet Earth? Like, we can do that, right? So the Vancouver Canucks will always provide.

That's what they do. And, yeah, so right now in Vancouver anyway, everyone's talking Quinn Hughes. Everyone's curious as to what the future looks like for this franchise and their best player. You know, this season, this wasn't supposed to go this way. This was not a team that's set up to be at the bottom of the NHL standings. That wasn't the expectation. And the fact that they are, I think, is accelerating some difficult conversations that were probably looming beyond this campaign regardless, especially as they pertain to Hughes himself, which of course is the big story coming out of this weekend. As much as some fans would prefer that people ask about and talk about a win over the Minnesota Wild, I mean, relative to, you know, what matters big picture for this franchise, Elliot Friedman reporting that the Vancouver Canucks have had at least a conversation with the New Jersey Devils, the franchise that happens to employ both of Hughes's brothers.

You know, that's the far bigger deal. And, yeah, I think the cities, the conversation. around this team's going to reflect it over the course of this week. There's no question about it. It's funny. When you were talking there about how there's always something to talk about whether it's the on ice or not, I was thinking like, you know, last year it was Pederson, Pederson, Pederson, Pederson, Pederson, Peterson, Peterson, Miller, yeah.

Right. They get it resolved and it seems like, okay, well, that's done. And now you can't even make it a calendar year until it's the other young cornerstone of the rebuild that we're all talking about. And you mentioned the Freibman Report. Like, I don't, obviously, I don't think anyone's shocked to hear that, but it does feel like kind of the official starting bell for this whole derby now. Yeah.

And I mean, you know, we're in this really interesting moment in the NHL, right, where Cap Space has become more prevalent. Teams are not dictated entirely off of sort of solving problems in the flat gap era like we were used to. And I think that's, that was expected to sort of help teams make moves. And yet we haven't seen much in the way of activity. We're also in this moment where no teams, it feels like no teams are really at the bottom in a way that feels permanent or.

There's no obvious sellers. There's no, nobody's cooked. There's also no obvious really bad teams. I mean, we're used to, you know, waking up on December 8th and looking at the NHL standings.

And there's, you know, three teams that have like five quality players on their roster total. And a minus 35 goal differential. already at this point in the season. And you sort of know that they're cooked. And, you know, right now anyway, those teams are Vancouver and Calgary and there's a Dustin Wolf in Calgary and a Roman Yossi in Nashville and a Quinn Hughes in Vancouver. Like it feels like a pretty flat season in terms of team quality. And then I think for Vancouver anyway, there's this sort of

double-edged sword that comes out of it where yes, this team's dealt with injuries and yes, there's evident talent on this roster and sure you can, you know, frame things as positively as possible and say, well, they're only six points out of a playoff spot. But the truth of the matter is, is that, you know, in the middle of the NHL, there's, let's say 15 teams that are that are pretty closely packed and variants can put them, you know, into the mix or out of the mix. The connects have run badly, but they were never going to be anything more than middling anyway. And probably on the outside, on the outside ledger of that. With Hughes, you've got a player who becomes extension knowledgeable on July 1.

And as we've seen with Pierre-Luc Dubois, we've seen with Matthew Kachuk, this moment tends to be a pressure point where players can use their willingness to sign an extension, right, to begin to have a say in where they play. And so this conversation was always coming with Hughes. The organization has been thinking about strategizing for this moment in time for years, for years. And, you know, I think the unique part for Quinn, because these sorts of conversations happen.

I mean, if you're a star player who's a pending UFA, you're going to be asked about it, right? if you're a star player on a second contract, you know, who's going to become RBeligible after the season, you're going to be asked about it. Like, this is not uncommon. This is the natural pressure points that players are asked about and that hockey fans talk about. The thing that does make it different for Quinn is he's got two brothers in the league,

also top five picks, who play for the same organization, which sort of makes this, adds a compelling layer to the speculation, to the sort of storytelling around this. And so, you know, the devil's name being mentioned. I know the Detroit Red Wings, they're sort of being talked about too. I mean, those two facts, you know, I don't want to say it poured kerosene on the situation because, you know, to some extent anyway, I don't think this has been at the forefront

of the conversation in Vancouver. It's been at the forefront of how this organization build this season, right? Like, this was the season where we had to win for Hughes. And I think that also, that natural gravity is sort of driven it too because, okay, there was the sense that the Canucks had to be competitive this year in order to make the case to keep Quinn Hughes. They haven't been competitive this year. So what does that mean for Quinn Hughes? Right. That's also driven this conversation in this market.

And so here we are with a Canucks franchise that, you know, I think a lot of fans in this market want to see change direction with, you know, one of the most. impactful skaters in the league, having their future sort of shrouded with uncertainty. And that dynamic is, you know, a pretty fascinating one. Like, it'll be wild to see how this plays out. I guess just before I, before I assume, like, do you think that's where we're headed? Like, is it headed toward a Quinn Hughes trade? Or is this, the speculation still leading the pack here? Yeah, I mean, I don't know because I don't really know what's going on between Quinn Hughes's years, right? I mean, at the end of the day, I think this is a player who's going to have a fair bit of say over what happens next, right? What's going to fundamentally drive this much like the two Miko Ranton and trades last season, right, is what the player wants and how, you know, behind the scenes conversations transpire.

And I guess the distinction between this and the two Miko Rantanin trades last season is that Rantan could sign and Hughes couldn't. And so, you know, until July 1 hits, I don't, I think there, it's probably premature to say, like, this has to happen now. Because, you know, at the end of the day, you can make the deal. But until Hughes can, like, properly put his autograph on the paper and commit to someone long term, like, that's where his, that's where his leverage lies anyway. And so, you know, I guess to, I'm not answering your question, Max, but do. I think this is where that ends up going. I really don't know. And it feels a little premature, but clearly it's in the air.

And I think that's because of the way that the season was framed and how it's gone for the Canucks. That's exactly where I was going with it. This just feels early to me for it to be like, like you said, there's the fact that he can't sign. And we saw what happened in Carolina and Renton and could sign. And they still ended up trading for a player that ultimately ended up not wanting to sign with them or not agree. to terms. This is a player who can't even do that for, we're talking months and months and months from now. And then the other part of it that, like, I wonder why is it, this seems too early is if you're going to end up trading him to New Jersey where his brothers are, like you could do

that at the last minute, because that's clearly where he would want to go. At least that's what we assume. It seems like if you were trying to trade him elsewhere, you might have to do it earlier before he, like you said, the closer he gets to becoming a free agent, the more control he has, the more power he has and the more say he has and where he goes. But if you're just going to end up trading him to where he wants to go to play with his brothers anyways, I feel like you could, you could really extend this out if you were Vancouver and try to do something else. Yeah, I mean, I agree with you. And this has been a constant source of conversation and even argument in the Vancouver market, this idea of, you know, should the franchise aim,

to try and get this done when they have full control, like prior to this deadline, right? Or, you know, can they afford to wait? And I'm sure the Canucks themselves are weighing these things. You know, I think they've been, again, thinking about and strategizing for this moment for years. And so, you know, my view of it anyway is just when it comes to players like Quinn Hughes, and I think the Ranton trade actually provides us a fair bit of information here, right?

in that, you know, Carolina sort of wins the bidding for one of the best offensive wingers. And then they make a, they pay, you know, a full freight, right? Jack Drury, Martin Naches, multiple draft picks. I mean, it's a big package for the avalanche. And then it becomes clear not only that Rantan isn't a fit there hockey wise or off the ice or that it's not working out, but also that he doesn't want to sign there. And they still are able to turn around and get a huge haul even in that. And so it's not like anyone's put it this way. It's not like your leverage diminishes when you have the thing that everyone wants.

Right. And so we can talk about it until the cows come home. Like, well, his leverage goes here or this situation looks like this now versus this in July versus this versus how it looks next deadline, right? A full, I mean, we could be having this conversation 16 months from now. And you know what? Teams are still going to be willing to pay a massive price to have Quinn Hughes on their team because he's, you know, a unicorn type player. And this is probably the same mechanism that was in play with Rantenden.

But like, as you know, like, I think all of us are worried that Star Free Agency is at least temporarily in a coma. Like at least for like five or six years as this rises. There is no more of that. Well, why don't you just let it get to free agency and see that. Don't give up an asset now. Wait till July 1. July 1 doesn't exist for this caliber of player anymore. and it won't for at least a few years.

There is no Miko Ranton in getting to free agency. There is no Quinn Hughes getting to free agency. That works in the Canucks favor here. Absolutely. Yeah, and you're right, this is a wild time in terms of team building strategies and sort of how it all means. I mean, you know, if you think about the big picture player acquisition for NHL teams, right, you're thinking about free agency, you're thinking about trades,

and you're thinking about the draft. and, you know, it's not just free agency, as you noted, right? With free agency, you're not going to be able to lend elite players for probably years to come. NHL players hate to move their stuff anyway. And now teams aren't forced to make the same sort of difficult decisions in deciding who to resign or not, right? The Florida Panthers can keep Marchand and Bennett and Ekblad. And they don't have to make those decisions. Those guys don't make it to July 1, but that also impacts the trades parts of it.

part of this, right? Because teams aren't in that same, you know, problem solving mold where it's like, oh, man, we'd love to keep this young up-and-coming third-line winger, who's probably a first-liner for 20 teams around the NHL, but now we can just do it. We're not sort of piecing it together with this like level of ingenuity and restriction that we used to have. So what does that leave? That leaves the draft. And as much as, you know, I suppose there's this thinking that in this world with plentiful cap space for everybody, a rebuild might look differently because you're not going to be able to do like what the Montreal Canadians did with the Monaghan trade, right?

Where you're able to take on money and get assets for that in the same way. I still think it's going to magnify the importance of developing your own players because realistically, where are you going to get the good ones? If you're not picking them at 17 and spending years improving them, It's a really fascinating dynamic to think through. To change the subject a little, I got to ask you about the goaltending because it's what I do. Sure. So I talked about how this Quinn Hughes talk is premature to me.

That's what the Demko extension felt like this summer, a player who has elite potential. We all know how good he can be, but he also has this injury history that's maybe long, like, I can't think of a player in the NHL who has more questionable injury history than Thatcher Demko. And they still had this whole season of him under contract. They could have let this season play out and see if he is healthy and if he is the Vezina candidate that we all expect it can be. But they didn't. They signed him to a three-year extension.

And now going into next year, they're going to have $12.5 million in the goalies. And I think that's going to be higher than every team except for the Rangers who have the best goalie on the planet for that amount. And the Vancouver Canucks have almost as much invested in. goalies, but they have often injured Thatcher Demko and Kevin Lankin, who's a good player, but isn't an elite goalie option. How do you view the whole situation and the trade to move on from Archer Sheelovs? I guess just how do you look at the goaltending and what do you expect moving forward? Well, yeah, I mean, goaltending is your thing. It's not mine, right? Like, I don't watch

games en route for goalies ever. Not once in my life have I ever done so. You know, I've also been on, I mean, I remember having this conversation with Dom La Cision, right? Where it was a few years ago when the Los Angeles Kings had, before the Kemper trade, it was like Cam Talbot and they had, you know, one other guy that season. And it was as if they sort of landed on the quote unquote wrong answer in on the goalie carousel. And everyone sort of was like, ooh, that feels like they real. And I remember having a conversation with Domlesision where I said it's very much like when you're,

playing zero RB in fantasy football. And, you know, you can't be picky, you know, because you think you have the wrong answer, but you actually have Dobbins and Rico Dowdell on your bench, right? Like the whole point is you don't know. That's the strategy. So, you know, anyway, my view of it, my view and value of goaltending,

right? Sort of runs like that where, you know, like for me, I'm not surprised right now for the Canucks. They've gotten two. really good performances out of a guy named Nikita Tolapilo, who's been at the American League level, and, you know, watching these games, especially because Lankanen is struggled in Demko's absence. Now, Demko seems like he'll be back at some point this week. So they're going to

get Demko back and we'll get back into that conversation in a bit. But already it's like, I think if Demko was out another two weeks, you'd start to see them go with Tolapilo, which for me is the argument against signing multiple goalies to big contracts. She loves clearly the one that. She loves clearly the one jettison, for example, has performed the best and been the most durable this season. Like, of course, right? This is how goldending works, especially for those that aren't Shasturkin and Hellebuck and on a very short list of the of the dudes that matter. For Demko, so the Canucks signed him. It's a three-year deal that hasn't kicked in and won't kick in until beyond the season. And like, he had a great start to the season, but you started to see the

seems even before the injury happened and now he's dealt with the injury. It's been a four-week absence. And I mean, so first of all, it's been a while since he was at a Vesna level. He really hasn't been at that Vesna level since he sustained that, you know, unprecedented Pobleteus knee tear. So that sort of provides its own concern. He also just, whether it was after that devastating injury or before, he just hasn't had a season where he plays a workhorse starters. workload performs at an above average clip and is healthy at the end of the season. Like that's, it's not that that's like hasn't happened in a while.

That's never happened in his career and he's 30. So we'll see. I mean, you know, I think that contract is already, that bet is already very much on watch as something that, you know, may be inefficient.

And as for Lankinen, you know, he's a steady player, but he hasn't, he hasn't, he hasn't played great over the course of the season overall. He's had his, moments. There have been some dominant games, but, you know, sort of looked at, especially lately,

especially the last couple weeks, stretch as Demko's absence sort of, you know, came to be like, as it lengthened, as Lankinen was pressed into that starter's role more frequently, you could really see the seam. So, yeah, I mean, their, their goaltending situation is, it should be better than it has been. They're about 24th in team save percentage. So not just that, Demco's health has like immediately been a factor, but also the expensive insurance policy that the club bought on Demco hasn't exactly paid out the way that they'd have planned it to this point. So tough start for the Canucksin net. Yeah. Well, I think that kind of ties into what I guess would be the bow on all of this, which is like whether it's the age of the goalies, whether it's the age of Elias Patterson, Marcus Pedersen, Philip Peronic, Jake DeBrus, Brockbet. This is a prime age team. and in a world where we're talking about like the future direction is you got a great column on this on Saturday night you know there may be some in the market who want the blow it up full scale you know from the ashes thing is that even realistic for a team who has so many good players between 27 and 30 yeah thanks for saying that about the column on Saturday I actually sort of messed it up I or messed up one thing in that column which is that I did pivot and talk about you know there are fans in the market that would prefer that this. team not sort of climb up the standings and get on a run in the second half of the season.

And I forgot to include the scene from the arena on Saturday night, which had me absolutely howling in laughter. But they were doing the six, seven cam. So you had a bunch of kids dancing and doing the six, seven meme dance. And it cut to a kid. And there was a gentleman behind the kid also doing the six, seven meme dance. And as they were doing so, they turned to. around, this fan turned around, and they had the absolute cheapest custom name bar you've ever

seen, right? Like I'm talking literally black sharpie on white paper folded up and taped to the back of their jersey. It was clearly a Besser jersey, so it was a six. And it just said McKenna on the back, and he starts pointing to it and the Jumbotron clearly cuts away very quickly, right? And so, I mean, we're at the point where grown men are bombing the six, seven cam. X games to call for a rebuild with their custom nameplate, their custom McKenna nameplate. And I really should have included that note, right? Because that would have made the point far stronger than me just being like, there are people in the market that would love to see this team change direction.

It's like, there are people bombing the 6-7 cam with a McKenna nameplate. That might have been the lead, Dranser. I'm not going to lie. I know. I'll be honest with you. I remember I filed it. And then I was like, oh, I feel like I forgot. I actually was worse than that.

I had the very home alone parents moment where I was like, I feel like I forgot something, you know? And that was it. So the, yeah, I mean, look, the Vancouver Canucks, we are one day away on Tuesday, December 9th, that will represent four years to the day since the club hired Jim Rutherford. And I think when you look through the track record of this Rutherland, preferred led Canucks management team. You know, you'll see some pretty good drafting. You'll see

some trades that have worked pretty well. You'll see a lot of like good for agent value signings, right? A lot of players, you know, whether it was Kuzmanko or Dakota Joshua or Kiefer Sherwood or what have you, Kevin Lankinan. A lot of players that the Canucks have pretty consistently year over year been able to bring in and get significant value from at a very affordable clip. but you'll see like a professionally run hockey team for the most part. And what the problem is is while a lot of the individual deals and the sort of way that this organization is functioned and run their American League team and manage their contracts and on and on makes sense in service of this team not pursuing the right big picture direction. right and i mean all you have to know about this is the canucks made a significant offer to keep rick tocket and rick tockett thought he had a better chance to win a cup clearly with a

philadelphia flyers organization that spent the last few years doing the work right to rebuild and accumulate assets uh rutherford was hired two weeks after jeff gorton in montreal yeah right and the gap between what the Havs have done and what the Canucks have done, it couldn't be wider, right? And what did the Canucks get for it? I mean, they definitely had a really fun 20, 23, 24 season, but they weren't a contender to your team there. They won one playoff round, right? I mean, they didn't even get halfway to the ultimate prize. So, you know, it's one of those things where, in my mind anyway, that this, or because you, you may be. mention it. No prime age players. None of Vancouver's top 10 players by ice time per game are under

the age of 25. You know, like even the Winnipeg Jets have Cole Perfetti. You wouldn't call the Winnipeg Jets a young team. I think this is not a young team. They've got some young depth players in and around. I mean, they got goals from both Elias Pedersen, the defender and Tom Villander the other night against the wild. And, you know, that was a good story, especially for a team that, you know, is going to be having conversations about Quinn Hughes, Quinn Hughes's future for the next few months. But that's insufficient, right? To be, having two young defenders on your third pair is insufficient to make you a young team.

So yeah, I mean, I do think there's, we're like a decade into this organization probably needing to accept that they should proceed without the sort of win now desperation that has far too often been at the sort of forefront of their hockey or player personnel decision making. Probably does need to consider rebuilding. Probably does need to consider, you know, honestly, like, forget rebuilding because rebuilding can mean a million things. Let's be specific. A team that probably needs to consider tearing it down and tanking for a bit, especially

because it's been abundantly clear for a while, but is especially clear this season that They do not have, you know, the necessary weaponry to skate with the avalanche, much less the, or, sorry, not much less, the avalanche are the best team in the hockey, but the, or Vegas, Edmonton and Dallas in the present. And, you know, what's coming over the horizon with San Jose and Utah and Chicago out west is, you know, something that's going, I mean, those teams are already ahead of Vancouver today, and that gap's only going to widen in the years to come as, you know, Anaheim as those players continue to find their footing dominate the NHL. So, you know, it's a really interesting spot to be in where, again, I think a lot of what this

era of Canucks hockey, this Rutherford era, a lot of the moves individually and in a vacuum can be explained and they've made sense. And it's been a far more professional operation than it was under Jim Benning when Rutherford took over. But if you don't nail the big picture, if you don't have the big picture right, it's going to be extraordinarily difficult, especially with how some of these other teams have built and then the quality of players

that they were able to mine from that experience. All right, let's take a quick break right there so that Jesse Drans and I can plan our fantasy football podcast. We'll be right back. All right, we're back. Thanks again to Thomas Drans, for joining us. That was a really fun first segment on the Canucks, obviously a ton to watch there. But we're going to go big picture now, Jesse. And I want to talk about some of the awards

statuses midseason. Dom had a great awards watch piece last week that I think did a really good job framing it. And I want to talk to you about a couple of the most interesting races. Or the first one, I guess, really doesn't even feel like a race right now because Kail McCar is leaps and bounds ahead, it feels like, of the other defensemen for the Norris. Yeah. He's the best. defenseman in the world, and he's having an awesome season. Like, when Cal McCar has a B-minus season, he can still win the Norris, but at least other people have a chance to throw their name in the conversation.

When he has an A-level season, which is what he's had through the first two months, the Norris is his. So congratulations to Kail McCar on being the Norris. No, I mean, we've basically reached that point where the only thing that can derail this is an injury is what it feels like to me. Is that how it feels to you? Yeah, it's funny, because I was thinking the other day about, how this in so many ways feels like it could be kind of the year of the two-way defenseman

in the Norris conversation, right? Like you're having breakout years from Moritz Sider, Jake Sanders, he continues to rise. Miro Haskinen, like, he's right there for what feels like, you know, probably a guy who we haven't even talked about enough yet this year for how good of a season he's having. All these guys feel like they're like, oh, these guys are all having really compelling seasons. Could they all even be on the same ballot? But it just feels destined to be behind Kail McCarr in some order. And Josh Morrissey in that same conversation, right? Like all these guys who impact the game, you know, the point producing defensemen have owned this award recently. And it does feel like some of the more true two-way guys who you really trust on PK1 have worked their way up in the mix now.

But it just doesn't matter because of what McCar is doing in Colorado. And I think Colorado's gap on the league plays a big role in that. It for sure does. And it's, I mean, you look at the heart watch. It's the same thing with McKinnon. They have the two best players in the world right now. And like, obviously, McDavid, Drysidal, there's some names you can throw in there. But right now, who's playing like the best two players in the world, it's Nathan McKinnon and

Kail McCar. And it's why the avalanche are where they are. Another name that I'd throw into that Norris conversation, he's fourth on the odds at Bed MGM. But he was second right behind McCar in, in Dom's rankings and his net rating. And it's Jacob Chikrin in Washington. He's been phenomenal. And the capitals, they see. started the season a little bit slow. It was like, okay, maybe they've taken a little bit of a step

back. Lately, they've gotten going. And they look like one of the better teams in the East, and Chickren's a huge part of that. I think he definitely belongs. His name belongs in the conversation. He should be talked about. He's not on the level of McCar, so it's tough to argue that he should win it. But I like seeing his name up there. And I think he's, he probably deserves to be higher in the, in the odds than fourth where he's at right now. Yeah, to your point, Chitrin is a plus 3,000 from bet MGM, but Macar minus 600. I don't know that I've seen this early in a year, a number like that. Usually you get there when it's like February, March, and it's clear a guy's run away with it. But minus 600 is staggering.

For non-gamblers out there, that means that right now, if you bet 60 bucks on Kale McCar to win the Norris, months from now when he wins the Norris, you will win $10. Yeah, they're not going to let you have anything for free on that one. It is funny. with Chickren. Like, I feel like they just have the secret sauce. And it might be as simple as Spencer Carber. It may be that their scouting is just this good because they've, but they've had so many hits in this regard, right?

Like Dylan Strom goes there and he resurrects and looks like that, you know, the third overall pick that he was. Alexi Protis suddenly becoming one of the premier two-way players in the NHL. They trade for Chickren and he fully realized, I think we all knew Chickren had really high potential. He's been a very good NHL player for a long time, but he's fully realized everything that he can be there. And I don't know if that's coaching. I don't know if it's just a good eye for seeing that this guy still has more in him. You know, if we bring him in, he'll find it here. Everything they touch right now is turning to gold. Yeah. It's happened in gold to Charlie Lindgren

came over and Logan Thompson. Two seasons ago, Lindgren was the, the story of the season in goal. Like he had a career year and you think, okay, well, he's not going to be able to keep that going probably, and he hasn't, but they trade for Logan Thompson for essentially nothing. The Golden Knights basically gave them Logan Thompson. And he was in the Vesna conversation last year until he got injured. And now he's one of the favorites to win the Vesna this year. He's been phenomenal. So yeah, I mean, that team, they haven't made the big splashy moves that, like, for example, the Golden Knights have made. Like, they make the more under the radar trades, get guys that are maybe underperforming their potential. And they're so good at finding those guys and finding a way for them to

reach their potential. Finding the underperforming guys, the easy part, it's getting them to reach that level that everyone expects, and they've done a phenomenal job at it. That is probably why Spencer Carberry won the Jack Adams Award last year, which as we know means there's no chance he can win it this year. They would never give a guy coach of the year two years in a row. It always has to go to someone who took an up and comer and made him good. That seems to be the trend. So let's talk about the Jack Adams here. There is another, I think, strong favorite, but it's not quite the runaway that it is on the Norris side. And that's Joel Quenville.

As we speak right now, the Anahim Ducks are leading the Pacific Division. And it's been an amazing turnaround. It's exactly what you kind of draw up in a Jack Adams campaign. Yeah, it's super interesting. We were talking about it with Las last week, and he obviously knows Quinville better than we do. But he's such an old school coach that, like, you would think wants his team to be so, like, sound defensively. And the Ducks are not that. and it feels like he realizes that.

And it's like, I'm not going to try to make this team into what I want them to be. I'm going to coach them to be the best version of what they can be and use their talents. And for the Ducks, that is, we will trade high danger chances with you all night. And we'll just score more of them than you will because we have higher end skill up front. And when Lucas Dostal is healthy, they have a goalie who can steal a couple of those on the other end. So it's a great example of a coach, like these old school coaches can easily. the game can pass you by, especially with how fast and skilled the game is becoming. I think Quinville's giving an example of how an old school coach that maybe doesn't prefer

that style of hockey is coaching his team to be the best version of themselves and not trying to force a square peg into a round hole. I still think there's always a push and pull, though, right? Like you can let them play free and use their skill. There's always a pullback at some point when it gets to be too much and then there's a crackdown. And I do think something like that will eventually come for the ducks. But the players are going to get to decide when that comes because as long as they're winning, as long as they're in first place, they buy themselves the right to say, well, it's working for us,

right? But when that three or four game losing streak comes and they give up four or five goals and, hey, with Dostal, maybe it will not come. But at some point, something like that happens, that's when you get the like, all right, now I'm going to teach you how to play responsible hockey through the neutral zone and not take unnecessary risks. And, you know, that's maybe the scary part is that they have the guys to do that. I get what you're saying is like they're able to play this way and win.

I think the guys that they have, the young guys, they have, the McTavishes, the Gautiers, the Leo Carlson's, I think they can do it both ways. And when they tap into that and they learn that they can also shut it down, that's what's going to make them terrifying. For sure. I think losing Dostal for this small amount of time might actually help the team in general because it's like, okay, Peter Morazick's back there. And then Marazek gets hurt. And now it's been Villay Huso. And great third goalie in an organization, but he can't see. save you the way Dostalken. You have to play a little better in front of him or you're going to get lit up.

I think learning those habits, building those habits of, okay, we can't just rely on the goalie to bail us out. And then all of a sudden you get your star goalie back. I think it could actually be good for them in the long run. Yeah. It is not the gap, though, like I said, and if Quenville's at plus 200 by Bette MGM, Jared Bednar's at plus 250. This one I think is interesting because Colorado, I think we all would agree is one of the most talented teams in the league. They're clearly this year the best team in the league. I don't know that we expected a runaway like this, though. And maybe this is the workaround for how the coach of a very good team can win this award, because Jared Beddner's never won this before, probably because we all kind of know how good the avalanche are. When you create a gap on the field, like the one that the Colorado avalanche have

largely created, Dallas, I should say, is still in that same orbit. But they're pretty much 10 points, no, 11 points up on everyone except the Washington Capitals, who are nine points back of them, and the Dallas Stars. That distance, I think, think gives Jared Bedner a case and he's at plus 250. Yeah, and it's not even just the wins and losses. Like the goal differential is insane. Their metric, their underlying metrics of possession are just through the roof. I mean, this team is dominating. And it's like John Cooper in Tampa doesn't get the credit he deserves individually because the team is so talented. Also never won a Jack Adams. Yep. And he didn't the year Tampa Bay broke all the records. Like he like he probably should have that year.

he had the same argument that year that Bednar has this year and didn't. Montgomery and Boston, like it's, now that one, nobody expected. I think, I think there was a little more like Boston came out of nowhere, like didn't expect that season from that team. But yeah, it's interesting. I feel like this is the third one of these seasons we've seen recently of a team just chasing records because they're so much better than everyone else. And it'll be interesting to see if Bednar can, because I think Bednar, it could also be kind of like a career achievement thing in terms of like voter. saying, well, this guy is obviously an awesome coach. Like he's won at every level. He's already got a cup.

Like maybe he deserves more credit than we've given him to this point. And this is our way of showing that. I try not to think this way as a voter. But the fact that I'm aware it like enters my consciousness tells me that it has to play some effect. It would be a little strange, I think, to give coach of the year to someone who has the Norris winner. And at minus 210, the likely heart favorite right now, certainly the heart favorite, the

I would say the likely heart winner, Nathan McKinnon. Like, does that enter the equation at all for you when you're filling out your ballot? Because I try to not let it, but it's in there. It's like, okay, was he the coach of the year or does he have the best player and the best defenseman? What if he's helping those two be the best player and the best. That's my argument for it. Imagine.

Imagine that. Yeah, like, what if? Like, there are plenty of talented players that maybe they're not quite as good as Kail McCar or Nathan McKinnon, but they're right there with them. And maybe their coaches aren't maximizing their. players to the to the extent that Bednar is. So like it's you you're, this will always be an argument in every sport. We argued it is it Belichick or is it Brady in the for the Patriots for years and years and years. I think you I don't think

you should always count the best player being awesome against the coach. I think sometimes the coach deserves a little bit of credit for that. I think it's a very fair point. Let's take a quick break right there. We're going to come back. We're going to talk a little bit more about the trade deadline. All right. We're back. And Jesse, we talked with Dranser. segment one a lot about Quinghuees. I think that's the obvious number one with a bullet thing that we're all going to be watching as the trade deadline creeps closer. It's December. We don't have to do a whole ton on this. But I did want to know what other situations you're watching. Maybe not as closely as Quinn Hughes. But like for me, I look at Nashville and this is a team that they've

won the off season in some recent years brought in Stephen Stamcoast, Jonathan Marcheseau, Ryan O'Reilly, like Barry Trots brought in some good veteran players. And it's, it just hasn't amounted to anything. And you feel like at some point, they're going to scatter. Like, they're going to have to trade these guys because it's not coming together. They're not getting any younger. If you're the predators, I feel like you owe it to everyone involved to try and move those guys. Do you think it happens?

It feels like at least one of them's got to go at this point. I mean, you look at, like, Chris Johnston has his early trade board up on the athletic. And these three are all in the top 10 in terms of players available. and even though it hasn't, like part of you is like, well, it hasn't worked in Nashville, so why would anyone want to like take on that experiment? But maybe it's because all of these older, slower scoring players can't win together, but just one of them on a line is totally fine. And like Jonathan Marsh is, so I've watched him close here in Vegas.

I watched him win a con smith for this team. If you have playmaking forwards on his line and all he has to do is playoff the puck and get himself into good spots and finish, he's amazing at it. And he does it in the biggest moments. And if I was a GM out there that needed a little bit of finishing to my team, like, okay, we've got talent, but I need a guy who can score in the big moments. That's exactly what Jonathan Marshall so does. And his contract is super reasonable.

Now, does he want to leave Nashville? It's like, you have to worry about the no movement clauses and the fact that these players signed with this team that has no state income tax. Maybe they're not going to be as willing to be traded to a place that has higher taxes. That's part of the reason their contracts are as reasonable as they are. So there are a lot of hurdles in there. But yeah, I would imagine at least one of these guys gets moved. If you're Nashville, you can't just let this ship sink. You've got to get some kind of value before that happens. Yeah, to your point, I look at Ottawa, and I covered David Perron in Detroit for a couple of years.

And I see David Perron, and he still plays a very real role for the center. He's playing with cousins and Batherson. Like, he's a good part of their team. David Peron's toward the back of his career. The skating has never been a strength that I, obviously, I think David would be the first one to tell you, like, it's not gotten better, right? He doesn't have the pace anymore. He doesn't have the juice. Now, he does have something almost no one has, which I think he's the best puck protector

in the NHL. But I just think if you put Stephen Stamcoast in that kind of role where you're with the young guys and you're doing what you do really well, which is rip pox and, you know, bring the winning habits you picked up on those cup teams in Tampa Bay, why can't Stephen Stamcoast be kind of a souped up David Perron for some team at this trade deadline? I think that's the exact role you'd have to be in. He's not going to come save you as your number two center. But if you could put him on the wing and play him with, you know,

good players who need a veteran like that around him, that's the exact fit for Stephen Stamco's, I think. Yeah, the question becomes, is a team willing to pay what Nashville wants for Stephen Stamcoast to acquire a player that's going to play that role? But why does Nashville, what incentive does Nashville have to like hold a line on that? You know, like what are you getting out of it at this point? You're probably right.

But it just seems like history. Like the predators, I think, are going to look at it. And like, GMs want to win a trade. And it's like, you're going to want what you think Stephen Stamcoast should bring back in a trade. And you're just not going to get that. Because like you said, we've laid it out. The role that these players are going to play on whatever contender trades for them is going to be smaller than the name suggests. Yeah, absolutely.

Another team that I thought we would be talking about in that exact vein coming into this year finds themselves in a very different position, and that's the Pittsburgh Penguins. I thought we would be talking for sure about where to Ricard Raquel and, you know, Brian Rust end up at this trade deadline, maybe even the big one, right? But instead, we're talking about the Pittsburgh Penguins holding down a wildcard team. How would you approach this as Kyle Dubus? It's tough because I think that the process and the smart thing to do says to sell and sell while these pieces are more valuable than maybe they were perceived coming into the year because the team has succeeded and wins. I mean, you see it every year. Like the Stanley Cup team, their free agents all get paid insane amounts because when the team's winning, it brings up the value of everyone.

So I think you could argue that the Penguins players are more valuable now than they were at the beginning of the year because of the team's success. However, the smart thing is probably to sell. But then you're also betraying Sidney Crosby. Like this is like Sydney Crosby and Evgeny Malkin have risen this team from the ashes and they're proving that they can still win. to then turn around and trade players away and handicap their ability to keep this magical season going, seems like an awful position to be. And I don't want to be the guy who traded away all of Crosby's teammates that he was trying to make one more run with. Do you?

No. And like, you know, we talked about the Elliott Freeman report on Quinn Hughes earlier. Like on that same segment, he reported that the Oilers have interest in Tristan Jari. And at the start of the year, if you told me that some team wanted to pay for Tristan Jari, you're leaping at that, Jesse. Like, but now it's almost like, can you trade away a goalie with a 913 save percentage while you're in a playoff spot? The Oilers could have had Tristan Jari last year on waivers. They waived him to the AHL.

Like this was not a like, and it wasn't like a cap like manipulation type of move. No, it was Tristan Jari's not one of the better goalies. He needs to go down to the HL. And now he's come back. He is, I've watched quite a bit of his games lately and he looks really good. I watched the game against Dallas last night, and he was the penguin's best player on the ice. They ended up losing in a shootout, and that was, if he would have won that game, Dallas scored with an empty net at the end of the game to tie it, and then they went in a shootout.

If he had just held on for 20 more seconds, that would have been his fifth win in a row. And he has been the best player in most of those games. He looks phenomenal moving laterally, which has always kind of been his strength. It looked like maybe that was going away last year. So the fact that you're seeing him look like the type of goalie, not just making the saves, but looking like the type of goal he used to be when he was a regular in the All-Star game. So then the question becomes, it's like, okay, do the penguins even want to trade Tristan Jari at all to begin with? Because he's one of the biggest reasons that they are where they are.

And then the other part is if you're the Oilers, they have consistently, at least the message coming out from the insiders is they don't want to make a lateral move. They want to make, if they're going to make a trade for a goalie, it's got to be someone who's clearly an upgrade. And I don't know if Tristan Jari is clearly an upgrade over Stuart Skinner. He's been better than him this year. He has played really well throughout his career, but he's also had down years like last year. I'd argue that Skinner maybe is even more consistent. He's been to the last two cup finals.

Like, yeah, he's playing with McDavid and Drysidal, but I don't know. And then there's the other fact that Stuart Skinner only makes $2.6 million a year. Tristan Jari makes 5.375 for the next two years. after this. That is, not only are you, is it possibly a lateral move, but you're having to clear out cap space. That is significantly more invested in the goalie position than they currently have. So I think that that trade is super, like I could see both teams not wanting to make that move. It's very interesting. The Oilers have $160,000 in cap space, according to cap wages us this morning. So there would have need to be a lot of finagling for that to even really be a possibility.

But I guess that's the third team that we should talk about here. And that's the position for the team that we should talk about here is, okay, if not, Jari, do we agree the oldest have to do something? We agree the oldest have to do something in goal, right? Or would you go into, I mean, they're not even in the playoffs right now. Would you go into the home stretch the way they have it? I mean, I've been saying for two years that they need to make a trade. And I don't, I've been saying, like, I do agree with their position that it's not easy to find a goalie who's clearly better than Stuart Skinner. And I know that there are people out there that think Stuart Skinner is horrible. And he's the whole reason that They haven't won a cup.

But the fact of the matter is he's been to two cup finals. You don't do that without being a solid goalie. And he's in certain stretches. He's the reason they're winning. Like that playoff series against the Golden Knights last year, he shut him out back-to-back games and wins them the series. He was awesome. Finding an upgrade over that is tough.

But to me, finding an upgrade over Calvin Pickard, who is not as good. And to me is hurting the tandem. I think he is a strong third goalie in an organization. like I just mentioned about Villay Huso down in Anahehan, but I don't think he is a strong enough goalie that gives you a good option to turn to if Skinner isn't great. So I think they should for sure make a move

to at least bring in another NHL caliber goalie who can be the other option. Because like Dran said, who knows what's going to happen with goaltending, at least give yourself another card to pull to see if it's an ace, the ace you need. I don't know, like we were just talking about Nashville. UC Soros,

if they were willing to trade UCSaur. that's the blockbuster move for the oilers that will clearly upgrade your goaltending, that if they were to add UCSaurus and somehow make that cap space work, that team is terrifying for the rest of the league. Even Colorado and Dallas would be worried to play against that team. But it's probably not going to happen. So I think that if you can't find that type of move, I think at least bringing another goalie in who can be an upgrade over Calvin Pickard

and give you another option to turn to if Skinner isn't the answer, at least a move like that should happen. And I should correct myself, the Oilers as of today, are in a wildcard spot after winning three of their last four. So it is trending in the right direction there, but you're still, I think in order to go toe to toe, I think with the Colorado's and the Vegas is. Granted Vegas not having the greatest year ever, but Dallas, when you project forward into the playoffs, it is hard to, for me at least to see, and they've done it two years in a row. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's hard for me to see not at least making an attempt at a goal time. That is going to do it for us. Thanks for listening to this episode of The Athletic Hockey Show. Reminder to subscribe on YouTube at YouTube.com slash at the athletic hockey show to watch full episodes.

Frankie Carotter will be between two shawls on Wednesday. We'll talk to you soon.