The Athletic Hockey Show - Ivan Provorov refuses to wear Pride Night jersey for the Flyers in warmup, Jason Priestley on Harold Ballard's complicated history

Episode Date: January 18, 2023

Charlie O'Connor joins Rob Pizzo, Jesse Granger and Michael Russo on the roundtable to discuss Ivan Provorov's decision to not take part in Philadelphia's pregame skate, wearing Pride-themed jerseys as the Flyers celebrated Pride Night to support the LGBTQ community, and we look at the organizations reaction to it, and Provorov and John Tortorella's post game comments on the matter.Actor and director Jason Priestley, along with his producing partner Michael Geddes, talks with Rob and Jesse to discuss their new documentary "Offside: The Harold Ballard Story", which focuses on Harold Ballard, the enigmatic, polarizing, controversial, notorious former owner of the Toronto Maple Leafs.Subscribe to The Athletic Hockey Show on YouTube: http://youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowGet a 1-year subscription to The Athletic for $2 a month when you visit http://theathletic.com/hockeyshowCancel unwanted subscriptions – and manage your expenses the easy way – by going to http://rocketmoney.com/hockeyshowGo to http://grammarly.com/tone to download and learn more about Grammarly Premium’s advanced tone suggestions.Visit our sponsor Better Help at http://betterhelp.com/NHLSHOW today to get 10% off your first month Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is The Athletic Hockey Show. Good afternoon, everybody. Welcome to another edition of The Athletic Hockey Show, the Wednesday Roundtable Edition. I am Rob Piesel from CBC Sports, joined as always by my two line mates. Mike Russo, who is in rally right now, ninth hotel room in 12 days.

I think I read on your Twitter account. Yeah, it's been a long road trip. Explains why I'm just tired and in a bad mood all the time. We were always getting the background of your hotel. That's how we know you're always on the road, but you're always got that microphone to join us. And Jesse Granger, who's just at home. Nothing exciting there. Just hanging out in Vegas, seven-game homestands.

So it's been a while. We get to stay at home for a while. We got a lot coming up on the show. I want to mention second half of the show, Jason Priestley. Yes, that Jason Priestley, I was a huge natal to a no fan boy when I was in high school. He came on because he is the director and narrator of a new podcast, excuse me, a new documentary called Offside, the Harold Ballard story. We'll talk to him and Michael Geddes, who is the executive producer.

If you are familiar with the Harold Ballard story, even if you're not, it's just a great doc. And man, it is pure entertainment. So we're going to get to them the second half of the show, guys. And ordinarily on this Wednesday roundtable edition, we hit like, I don't know, somewhere between five and ten topics in the first segment. We're going to hit one today, guys, because, you know, we had eight games last night, and all anyone in the hockey world is talking about is something that did, or to be more accurate,

didn't happen before one of those games. So let me set the scene in case you are living under a rock right now. Last night in Philadelphia was Pride Night. During the warm up, the players were wearing pride-themed jerseys. Those jerseys were going to be auctioned. off for charity. We've seen it before. One of the members of the Philadelphia Flyers, Ivan Proverov, said he did not want to wear the jersey. In fact, he didn't even take part in warm up. He said it was because of his religious

beliefs. He is Russian Orthodox. I'm going to read you the exact quote. He said, quote, I respect everyone's choices. My choice is to stay true to myself in my religion. That's all I'm going to say. John Tortorella, the head coach of the Philadelphia Flyers, said he stood by him for sticking with his beliefs, did not want to bench him. And he obviously played in the game. Now we're going to bring on Charlie O'Connor in just a second, who, of course, covers the team on a regular basis for the athletic.

While we do that, and we're going to kind of hit this from every angle, guys, but your initial thoughts when you started seeing this story and obviously the Twitter world went a little crazy in the hockey world, went a little crazy on it. Your initial thoughts on this. Jesse, we'll start with you. Yeah, I think. My initial thought was what everyone thought was shock that he wouldn't go out for warm-ups. I think that it's a tough balance between religious beliefs and supporting a cause and what

support are you actually giving by wearing a jersey out there? It's put the flyers in a tough situation because of the religious beliefs. I'm not going to pretend to know law well enough to know whether or not they could bench him for something. that he claims his religious beliefs. But I disagree with him not wearing the jersey, him not taking warmups. I think that it's the least you can do to support an initiative that the team in the league is doing. But like I said, I think they should have benched him, but also I'm not in the position to make that call. And I don't know if the people that were in the position to make that call knew the legality behind it. So I guess that's that those were my thoughts,

Mike, what do you think? Yeah, I mean, well, first of all, I was one of those people that was living under Rock last night. I was covering a game in Washington and, you know, saw Charlie's tweets and, you know, that Prover Ruff wasn't in warm ups, but there was not one part of me that was looking at the context and things like that. I just figured he was heard or something. And then obviously after the game, I caught up pretty quickly and also was shocked.

And the first thing I did was try to refresh my memory in last year's Pride Night, that the Wild have had, they're not having one until March. And I really quickly looked because I know that, that, you know, Caprisoff and Kulikov are also Russian Orthodox. And I wanted to make sure that they actually, that I somehow didn't miss the fact that they weren't wearing their pride jerseys and they were. I talked to my colleague Joe Smith today and he said that Vasselowski always wears the ones with the lightning. It was, it was interesting because it was Pride night in Washington yesterday, but they didn't wear pride jerseys during warmups. They had the sticks and some of them had the rainbow tape and things like that. I just, I, you know, it's hard for me to really comprehend what Proveroff is

thinking for myriad reasons, you know, based on religion and things like that. I just, you know, part of me just doesn't understand why for 10 minutes you can't just put on a jersey for a good cause that's going to be auctioned off. I don't. understand how that would have changed his life for any of the worse. I just don't get it. So it's hard for me from that standpoint. I agree with you. I think the Flyers were in a tough spot. I think Charlie's going to talk about this in a little while, but it sounds like they found out right before warmups. So I think that it was a real quick try to figure out, you know, can they even play them? What are the legalities of that if they suddenly say you're not? The thing I was

a little surprised was is I just thought that Torts was just not eloquent at all. And, you know, I just think in four hours, there could have been a better statement that he could give rather than I respect ProVee because he's being true to himself. It's just not what you say in that situation. So tough, tough situation all around. And it's going to be interesting what the ripple effect is now because as Charlie, I'm sure, is going to talk about him. This is somebody that's been rumored to be on the trading block for a while. And now it's going to be a PR nightmare. Well, let's bring Charlie and Charlie O'Connor, of course, covers the team for the athletic. Thanks for jumping on, man. Paint us a picture what was going on last night, as Russo kind of alluded to there. This was quite last minute. I'm sure the flyers were scrambling. I'm sure reporters were scrambling. I'm sure it was a big scramble last night, wasn't it? Yeah.

Yeah. This really did kit kind of out of nowhere with regards to warmups. You know, as as Mike said, this is a situation where he didn't show up for warmups. He wasn't out there. Justin Braun skated in his place. But you could kind of tell there was something up because Justin Braun. is not a top pair defenseman. When they ran lines and pairs, he was on the top pair on the left side with Cam York,

which presumably if Proveroff had gotten hurt in, you know, pregame stretches or lifting or whatever, that Justin Braun would not be the one to be sliding right into his place. So it just, it screamed that he was something of a stand in. And, you know, there, Proveroff, there's been reports. I've reported this multiple times that he's not the most popular. player in the locker room. There is a divide there that's going back years. And this is a situation where, you know, Flyers players, particularly Scott Laude and James Ryan and Reamsdike, who kind of spearhead at this, you know, really do care about LGBTQ plus initiatives and really, you know,

have kind of tried to spearhead this. And I wouldn't be surprised if that was part of the tension that has been building up over these last couple of years, has been, you know, Proveroff's unwillingness to have to participate in these initiatives. I know in the past, the Flyers had done Pride nights before. They had never worn jerseys. They had done the Pride tape thing on the stick. Provovroff had never used it. But I know in this particular situation,

Flyers players with Lawton and JBR kind of leading the way, wanted to do something more. They wanted to wear jerseys and they wanted to do it in a unified group to show support for that community. And Provovroff clearly had no interest in being part of that unified show of support. And that's one of the things that jumped out to me because the way I see a lot of these Pride Nights, I don't think NHL teams or even the league are trying to solve homophobia in one warm-up skate. I think what they're trying to do is say members of the LGBTQ plus community are welcome here in our game.

And we've seen it with the, if you can play, you can play a campaign. And that just leads me to say, well, what does Proverrov think then? Does Proverov not believe that gay should be playing in the NHL? If that's true, well, that's a problem. Is Proverov saying to one of his teammates who maybe is gay, I won't do the bare minimum for you. I won't put a jersey on in warm up for you. And I'm not trying to make this a hockey discussion of what it's going to. happen, you know, what's going to happen with the team. But you alluded to it there, Charlie,

this, this is going to be something we continue to talk about because we, the locker room is everything. And if it's a divided locker room because of an issue like this, who knows where it could go. Yeah. And I think, to be clear, I don't think that, I do believe that Ivan's Perover, I'm in proverroval's name has come up in, in trade conversations, particularly over the last few months. I think both sides have kind of come to the conclusion that a change of seen. room might be best. I don't believe that's because of this. But I do think that, you know, as you said, a divided locker room can be a problem. And Proveroff has, you know, clash with teammates in the past, not necessarily over this particular issue, but over other things. And this isn't

helping. You know, it isn't helping when every single other player on the team wears a jersey before warm up and Ivan Proveroff doesn't do it. You know, the whole, I think what's, what's frustrating for me as an outsider in this is that the whole reason why a gesture like this is meaningful to the LGBTQ plus community is because everyone on the team does it. It's that show of solidarity. It's that, that message that's being sent that we're all on your side. You know, we all, you know, we all support you.

It's the same reason why the whole team during warmups wears hockey fights cancer, style jerse. It's the same reason why the whole team during warm-ups wears military appreciation day style style jersey. It's the same reason why when Claude Drew was going in his 1,000th game, which everyone knew was going to be his final game as a flyer, everyone wore number 28

jerseys and warm-ups. It's that message that, you know, we've got your back. And by one player on the team, not going out there, it sends the message that not the whole team has that community's back. And that's got to really hurt people in that community. Charlie, you mentioned that he could be on the trade block.

Do you think this changes that? I mean, if you're a prospective GM out there thinking about trading for this guy, you already hear the problems that he's having with players in the locker room, which to me, that's already a red flag. Maybe I don't want to trade for this player. But now you bump this on top of it and the PR that comes along with it. Do you think Chuck Fletcher sit in there wondering how he's going to trade this guy now? I feel like that's a question that's probably better serve for the other GMs in hockey

because I don't know. I don't know if this would be enough to, you know, dissuade another GM from wanting to acquire Ivan Perrovo. I can say that it can't help. I mean, in the end, you know, general managers, hockey organizations, hockey ownership groups, they don't like distractions. And now, because of this,

Ivan Proveroff has pretty much guaranteed that on any team that acquires him, it's going to come up. He's going to be asked about this. And yeah, very well, might be some GMs that just don't want to be bothered with having to deal with that kind of situation. And sure, this probably does make Chuck Fletcher's job more difficult if the plan was to try to find him a change of scenery. But we'll see how it plays out. Maybe there's GMs that don't think it's a big deal. Maybe there's GMs that would view this as a way to buy low on them.

I don't know. It's probably a question better serve for other GMs. Yeah, it might be that. Might be the latter. That is the way that they sometimes think. But as you mentioned, it's not even just the distraction in the locker room, Charlie, it's the PR nightmare of a team that wants to support the community adding somebody like this to a locker room. It's just going to meet the immediate story that you write about. And it's just going to have a bad, bad look, especially this close to it. Can you kind of paint the scene last night? Like, you know, is it you're reporting that essentially this was not something that they had all day to prepare for that they didn't find out at the morning skate that he wasn't going to wear this jersey, that it was really right before

warmups and that, you know, I know a lot of people are quick to just rip on the flyers and letting him play and their, you know, maybe their statement that they put out and things like this, but it had to be just a frantic, chaotic situation for them, right, if they found out right before warmups. Yeah, that's my understanding based on the people I've talked to close to the situation. I know for a fact that the ownership group was blindsided, that they did not know that this was coming. I think it's theoretically possible that there were some people in and around the team that maybe were aware that Prov Ruff was going to do this. But I don't think it was everyone. And I certainly don't get the sense it was anyone who would have had the power to make a

decision based on whether Prov Ruff should play or not. So yeah, I think generally people that would have had that power found out about this pretty late in the going. And then, you know, look, we've been around locker rooms. It's pretty chaotic in that lead up to, to time, you know, the half an hour, 45 minutes before everybody's getting ready, everybody has their routines and whatnot. And then suddenly, you know, everybody finds out kind of haphazardly that a player is, is kind of taken the stand and isn't willing to go out for warm-ups. Yeah, it's a tough situation. And I'm not, I'm not here to, you know, defend the way the flyers did it, but I will, I will say that, yeah, this, this definitely blind side of the team from what I've been told by

sources. This was not something where they knew days in advance or even a day in advance and we're able to make the decision that, no, we're going to stand behind our player and we're going to allow him to play. This was a very fast-moving situation. That being said, Charlie, something that Mike alluded to earlier, John Tortorella, you know, we spent last week's show kind of ripping on torts a bit, and I think we're going to continue doing it here. But I don't know about you guys. when I saw him say, oh, no, I had no, no intentions of benching him because he's sticking by his beliefs. I immediately thought, isn't this the same guy who said he'd nail anybody to the bench if they decided not to stand during the national anthem? I wasn't the only one who thought that. Twitter kind of thought that as well, but you deal with that guy on a regular basis.

Are we going to get the, I don't want to talk about this anymore, torts over the next couple of days? I mean, he'll certainly be asked about it again. I can't tell you one way or the other, whether he's going to basically say, I've said all that needs to be said. I'm done with it. I will defend towards a little bit with regards to the kneeling controversy, because while he did absolutely say that and it was a big deal, he did a few years later backtrack and say that kind of he's changed his opinion on that. So while it doesn't change the fact that it's something to say on Twitter, I will say that I don't think he would make those same statements again today. That said, yeah, the statements did not come off great, to be sure.

It was, he did say in the lead up that basically he supports initiatives like Pride Night. He thought it was a great night. So I don't think that, you know, he's opposed to what the Flyers organization was trying to do on this night. But, yeah, it didn't come off as the most, I guess, for lack of a better term, sensitive to those who were hurt by this. interesting night that I think we're going to be talking about for that this is not going to go away

and Charlie thanks for just jumping on it. I know we called you last minute, but your reporting was was great last night. We'll probably get you on again when this thing continues to play out. Thanks so much for doing this. Yeah. And make sure everybody reads Charlie's piece. He's got an opinion piece that's about to pop on the athletic that's, I know, really well done.

I'm in a channel right now on our Slack channel where all the editors are talking about how good it is. So well done, Charlie. Can't wait to read it. Thanks a lot, guys. Thanks for having me. Charlie O'Connor, who covers the Philadelphia Flyers for the athletic. Guys, real quickly before we go to break, do you think the NHL gets involved here? Is this just an internal matter or is this a situation where we're going to see the league?

And then if the league gets involved, of course, the PA getting involved somehow with this, Mike? I really don't. I think that the league, they have all, as Charlie was mentioned, all these types of initiatives, but they really don't mandate it. And one of the reasons why they don't mandate it is because of this, because of the country, because of the United States and Canada and freedom and all that stuff. And I just think it's a really impossible position for them to be in. So, you know, there is no rule that says that he's got to wear the pride jersey. there's no rule that says that the flyers should have scratched him for not wearing the pride jersey. I think the better thing that happened is that they wouldn't let him be in warmups because that would have been just a really true aggressive, to me, anti-gay stance if he was the only player in warm-ups, not wearing.

You think that would have been worse? I really do. I think it would have been worse. Like I do. If he was just wearing his flyers jersey and everybody's wearing a pride jersey, to me, that's just slapping you in the face saying, I just do not. respect you, don't care about you, nothing. But I just, I think the league's in a tough spot here. And I just don't think that there's anything that you can do to really reprimand him, especially when, and I hate to use the word hides, because I know there's a lot of people that,

you know, are extremely religious and would take that the wrong way. But when you use that as your rationale for this, I think it puts the league in a really tough spot, both morally and legally to then all of a sudden say you're now suspended or something. I just don't, I don't, it's not like something that happened on the ice where he used a slur where the league can then react. This was somebody that had a choice to make and whether you agree with it or not, I just don't see how the league can go there and say you're, you're in deep trouble here. So that's just, that's just my gut sense on the whole situation. Yeah, I agree with Michael that they're in a tough spot because there's no rule. Like there's nothing you can point to black and white. I disagree

that wearing the jersey would have been worse. I think this is just as bad. I think so too. I think. I think not going out there because you don't want to put the jersey on sends the exact same message that it would have if he would have worn the the regular jersey. I just, I don't know what they can do because again, I think the whole religion aspect of it, if this was just him saying, I don't respect LGBTQ plus community, it's an easy, bring the hammer down on him. You're suspended. But because it's religion, because he's saying it's religious beliefs, it believe, it, where does the line then get drawn on, okay, which religious beliefs are we going to suspend people for? Which ones are we not going to? I'm not a religious person. So I like, I don't feel qualified to talk

about this. But I think because it's a religious belief, it creates a real problem. And I think if the NHL were to do action on it, like Rob said, the NHLPA, whether they agree with his religious belief or not, they're probably going to have to back their player on this. And it's going to create a very, very difficult legal, ethical battle. So I just don't, because there's no hard rule and because of the religious aspect of it, I just don't see if there's anything they can do. Yeah, I agree. And I think a lot of people would like to see something happen, but it's an easy thing to say on social media or when you're talking with your friends. It's an easy thing to say. The one thing that bothered me a bit last night, too, people comparing this to other quote-unquote protests that we've seen, you know, be it Colin Kaepernick, be it Black Lives Matter, take your pick.

The difference is those protests, at least in my opinion, did not take a group of human beings and kind of call them less than another group of human beings. That is what I saw last night. That is what homophobia is. So again, this is, I feel like we'll be talking about an update on this next week on the show. And when we do, obviously, we'll keep you completely updated on that. So like I said, one topic in the first segment and next segment. We're talking about Harold Ballard. Man, what a show.

Jesse and I had an opportunity to speak to Jason Priestley and Michael Geddes about offside the Harold Ballard story. And that's coming up right after the break. So, Jesse, as you know, I grew up in a hockey household. Okay. Hockey night in Canada, Saturday nights. me and my dad, he was a big Lee fan. We grew up just outside of Toronto.

So even at a very young age in the 80s, I heard so many Harold Ballard stories. Some were funny, some were not so funny, and some were just downright crazy. As I got older, these stories continued to take on a life of their own because this man was this man before the age of social media, YouTube, internet, everything. and for so many years, especially when I got in this business, Jesse, I wanted someone to tell the Harold Ballard story. And they finally did. The doc is called Offside, the Harold Ballard story.

And a couple of those men who are responsible for this are joining us on the athletic hockey show. We've got the director and narrator, someone I've been a huge fan of for many, many years, Jason Priestley, and the executive producer, Michael Geddes. Guys, thanks so much for coming on. Hey, you got it, guys. Hey, great to be here. Jason, let's start with you, and this might be a really stupid question given the intro I just gave, but why Harold Ballard? Why did you want to tell this crazy man's story, and why did you think this was the time to do it? Well, I mean, you know, how could you not want to tell the story of

Harold Ballard? I mean, it's, you know, we, when we started to examine the story of Harold, we couldn't believe that no one had told his story in this fashion before. You know, a lot of people that had sort of done, you know, 10 or 15 minute feature rats on him. But no one had sort of really done a big, you know, feature length documentary deep dive on him and his character before. And as, you know, told his full life story before. So we wanted to, you know, take this opportunity to do that. I don't have the history that Rob does with this subject. It was all brand new to me going into it.

But what I'd like to know, I guess, from Michael, is when you went into this, you obviously knew a lot about the guy. Did your perception change, or was it, or basically was it just, this is exactly what we thought? And then we just dug further into the type of man we thought this guy was. Yeah, I mean, during the 70s, I was a teenager, believe it or not. And yeah, I knew a lot about Ballard. You'd hear it.

You'd hear it from your dad. You'd hear it from watching the telecasts. He was, his reputation preceded him, obviously. So when we got into this, I didn't expect we'd move the needle at all on that perception. However, it was just interesting. You know, here's a guy that was 68 years old when he got to the top of his mountain and got control of the Leafs. And, I mean, talk about a guy who had to take on a whole new breath of life and go forward. Well, that was Harold.

I mean, he went full steam for another 20 years, which is kind of unbelievable. So I didn't know that. And that might give a lot of perspective to the guy who was Harold Ballard and how he ran the team. Because, I mean, somebody born in 1903, you're not changing that guy. There's no changing him. And he was old school as old school gets. And the way he helm the team, I think, wasn't a surprise because, again, his reputation preceded him. But there were just some tidbits along the way in this documentary, that being, you know, 68 years old when he assumed control the team.

And maybe another great tidbit was, you know, he was in debt. He assumed a lot of debt to get this team. And people forget that. I mean, you've got that weight on your shoulders called, you know, the bank and a big mortgage on that team. You know, financially, I don't think he had any pressure on them, but by all accounts, he owed the bank a lot of money. So that was something I did not know. Guys, this question may be for both of you. Sometimes tracking down guests and people who are willing to talk about such a polarizing figure can be difficult.

I loved all the guests. Everyone who was involved with Harold Ballard seems to have been in this documentary. And I'm wondering, because none of them really held back. I felt like everyone was so honest. No one sugarcoded it. A lot of times when someone's, you know, no longer with us, they don't want to trample on someone's grave. That wasn't necessarily the case.

Did you almost find it was too easy to get guests for this thing? Were people very willing to say, I would love to talk about Harold Ballard? Jason, we'll start with you. Well, we were able to find a lot of people, like you say, that we're willing to talk about Harold. I mean, it's sort of, I think people were a little more trepidacious at the beginning. But once we got our first few people, there was sort of a domino effect. And Gord Stelich, who was one of the people who talked to us for the documentary, was very instrumental in helping us access all of the, a lot of the players who came and talked to us. Certainly the journalists were all very, very eager and willing to talk to us about their interactions with Harold over the year.

And people were very forthcoming about their remembrances of working with Harold. And that was actually one of the driving factors for us in making this documentary now. You know, people, those people who actually did have a lot of personal interactions with him, we're starting now to get to an age where they're starting to shake off this mortal coil and leave the plan. it, you know. So it's important to, uh, to document, uh, their remembrances of him before they actually, um, uh, exits days left. And I think, you know, once we, once we start getting people in the tent, per se, and it was a tent because it was a bit of a circus, uh, obviously for 20 years. Um, I think, you know, getting, getting Settler, getting Wendell,

two different errors of Ballard, you know, uh, Wendell came in as the, the hot rookie at 18 years old and started immediately and was a key member of that team at 18 years old, Sittler coming to the team when he was a rookie back in the early 70s. Once those two guys came in to kind of bookend this documentary, I think the rest of them, you know, had that, had that assurance to come in and then, you know, we got vibe and we got a number of key players. And I think because we weren't looking to move the needle on Harold the Bad, because that story has been well told, and as I said, his reputation precedes him, we really wanted their introspect. on what it was like being around with Ballard as their boss.

And yeah, they all seem to have a level of respect form, too, which was curious, depending on, even people that had bad experiences, you know, like Rick Vive at one end of the spectrum. And the documentary you saw a guy, Rick scores 50 goals, three years in a row. And life was kind of miserable at that time for him as a Maple Leaf. I mean, put that to today, anything. player in the NHL that scores 50 goals three years in a row, that's not going to happen. So that just tells you, you know, from the top down, how, you know, fractured things were

for that team. So it was great to get their perspective. Yeah. And that being said, just quick follow up on guests. One that jumped out to me, I'm not going to lie. I saw Alan Eagelson on the screen. I went, whoa, Alan Eagelson doesn't do too many interviews anymore. And, He's got a checkered, checkered past of his own. So I'm wondering just when you guys were putting together a list of people he wanted to talk about, was there any debate as to whether Alan Eaglson should, shouldn't be on this given his past? And did he need some convincing to come on? Jason? We did talk about it.

But at the end of the day, Alan's very, very personal interactions with Ballard. sort of won the day. You know, his whole thing, you know, him and Ballard were very heavy collaborators on the whole Summit series. And they were part, they were business partners through that whole process. And we sort of felt like his deep business connections with Ballard sort of tip the scale in his favor and being included in the documentary. but it was a difficult decision for us, given his difficult past with the NHL and the NHLPA at all.

As kind of an outsider on this subject, one of the things I kind of wanted to know was like, okay, this is a team that is one of the oldest, most story. They had so much success before he took over. Like, how did it, like, what happened here? Like, what was the, and to me, one of the things that stood out was just the leanness that he ran it with. like they talked about the scouts not having, and like the one throwaway line that it stood out so much to me was he didn't want the names on the back of the players' jerseys because he thought he wouldn't sell enough programs,

which is insane to me. Like, is that like when you boil it down, do you think that was the number one reason that the downfall? Like obviously there are so many things that happened under him. But like to me, it seemed like the unwillingness to spend despite being one of the most profitable teams, that was what it kind of all boiled down to. Yeah, I mean, it goes to,

to Harold's personality. He came from money. He didn't come from poverty as a child. And growing up in the city, he had a privileged upbringing. Yet he was tighter than two coats of paint. You know, so that's how we ran the team just in a general sense. But, you know, you look at what was going on. First of all, when the Leafs were great and not taking away anything from that throughout the 60s, there were six teams in the league. Most of the Cups were dominated by Montreal and Toronto. Fast forward to when Ballard eventually had control of the team in 71, 72, the WHA had arrived. How do you deal with a new league? That was foreign territory for everybody. He obviously didn't manage it well because he didn't take it seriously and he let a lot of players go

and they went for more money. Of course, he wasn't going to pay them what they deserve and recognized that there's now some new dynamics to deal with. And then I think, think just overall, here's a guy again who was stuck in the past. The league had changed. The players union, the perspective of how teams were run, television contracts were changing the game. And access to the teams were from a viewer standpoint were getting broader. Remember, back in the 60s, the CBC didn't even air the game until the start of the second period, which was crazy. that's the way they, because there were other programs in this country more important. So somebody along the way determined that hockey in Canada needed to be broadcast and be an anchor

to their schedule. And thankfully they did. But a lot of moving parts for Ballard. And part of me thinks, you know, he didn't just know how to manage that. He was stuck in the past. And there's some great quotes that deal with this in our documentary. But he was an old school, old principled guy, used to dealing with a boys club that all of that was coming apart on him the moment he took control of that team. And along those lines, the section which deals with, you know, I talked off the top of the show about my dad telling me things, he used to say, this man's a racist, this man's a homophobic, this man's a sexist.

That was a difficult part of the doc for me to watch. And I don't mean that as far as the film goes. I just mean the subject matter. Was that difficult when you were putting that part together? because in 2023, hearing him tell Barbara Frum on her own show to shut up and women should only be on her back or hearing him use the N-word on multiple occasions, that just stung for me. Jason? Yeah, it was, it is. You know, that kind of stuff is difficult.

But I think that, you know, showing that stuff, I think is important, you know, because I think it's very revealing as to who he really was, you know. and I think and I think that you know but also remember we're you know we're viewing all that stuff through a through a 2023 lens right and it was and it was and it was you know they were different times back then right and not not to excuse it because you can't excuse it but but I think that I think that things were viewed a little differently back then he I mean his his behavior was still outrageous or even back then right which which makes it extra outrageous today. And I think, yeah, just the way putting all that in perspective as Jason just did,

you know, you have to remember he was an original character in himself. I mean, Canada didn't have anybody like him at that time. I don't think there was anybody you could say was as big and grandiose and as awkward as Harold was. And yet added to that, he owned the most important and high profile public. company in this country at the time, Toronto Maple Leafs. Maple Leaf Gardens Limited. So you put those two things together. I mean, getting headlines was clearly for Harold what excited him.

And we've said on many occasions he had a, this documentary in Harold had a had a Trumpian flare to what he did. And what we mean by that is, I mean, he kind of was candidate as Trump before Trump, but also he knew the media and how to play the media, probably. better than anybody did in a very innocent, different Toronto and Canada at the time. He was a bit of a trailblazer. He wasn't trailblazer in many things, but he certainly was in how he played the media for sure.

I've been lucky enough to do some documentary style stuff for CBC as well. And I got to ask you about just diving into those archives. I mean, I was so happy to see the apartment. I'd heard so much about the apartment in Maple Leaf Gardens and the fact that you guys have footage of that. I thought, this is fantastic. But I also know that sometimes things have to hit the cutting room floor. They're like, you know, killing your children at times. They say that. Was there anything that ended up time-wise or just you just couldn't fit it into the storyline that maybe you wish you could have? Interestingly, and Jason can add to this, but as public as Harold was,

there weren't many one-on-one interviews with Harold back in the day. Most of his exchanges were, you know, impulsively done when the media showed up, a media scrum, or when they were following him. And I mean, not in a paparazzi way, but he did very few interviews. He loved headlines and he loved print. And he had a very love-hate relationship, of course, with the print media. But, you know, we were challenged, as long as we were saying, basically we were challenged. We had to look long and hard for some of this footage. And sure, Hockey Night in Canada, he was on that show a few times as a guest.

You know, we didn't get a chance to put that on the air. That would have been fun because he was a little outrageous on those moments between periods. But, yeah, I mean, in 90 minutes, we could have done two documentaries and, you know, maybe we should have. Carter, but you never know until you get into it. But, you know, Jason can kind of add to this as well. Yeah, there were, there were a few other tidbits that were, you know, kind of gold, Christmas party, you know, Hockey Night and Canada Christmas party moments and stuff like that, that were kind of gold, but we just couldn't find a place to squeeze that stuff in. But it was, but, you know, most of the really good stuff that we were able to find in the archives,

we found places for in the film. But it was, like Michael said, it was, you know, for a guy who was so public, he really didn't like to do one-on-one interviews that much. You know, the Adrian Clarkson interview that we utilized quite a bit up in the documentary was really the sort of the deepest-eye of one-on-one interview that he really did, which was fascinating for a guy who was such a public figure. The one thing that kind of jumped up to me as well, you know, this is a story. If you ask Khali fans from the 80s, you know, the greedy owner who decimated this team,

drove it into the ground. But I really love that you dove into some of his relationships with King Clancy, with, you know, Yolanda, with his own children. I mean, I felt like, I don't know if you guys watched Succession. I kind of felt like I was watching an episode of Succession where, you know, this father and his kids are completely battling over this right till, you know, the moment of death. Were you surprised to see because because of just his image, were you surprised to see that, you know, there were people who actually liked being around him all the time, Jason? Well, I, you know, I love that, you know, I love that there were guys who, who really liked him and respected him, you know, Tiger Williams, you know, and guys like that really, really liked him.

And King Clancy, loved him, right? So there, and I think it was important to show that there, that there were guys who, uh, who, who, who had those types of feelings towards him. You know, I, you know, she just, you know, having, showing a documentary that's completely one-sided, I felt would, would, would be irresponsible of us, you know, because, because he was, uh, you know, he was a human being and he was a multifaceted human being. and I and and you know of course you know there are going to be lots of um detractors but you know every and and and and Harold Harold I think was a was a was it was a was a very interesting um very mercurial very very divisive um guy and people either fell on one side of the fence or the other in their interactions with him and I we felt like as filmmakers it was our responsibility to just lay out all the evidence that we found in the making of this

documentary and let the audience come to their own conclusions about Harold. So we lay it all out, the good, the bad, the ugly, and let the audience come to their own conclusions about them at the end of the day. I can say, and Jason can kind of double this. Since we've announced and gotten involved in this documentary, and it's well known that this documentary was coming, the amount of stories that have come our way that are anecdotal about Harold, there seems to be no end to them because you say his name and it conjures up in an immediate gutter response. And, you know, there's these random acts of kindness that, you know, people have offered up that, you know, didn't make it into the documentary, but there's no way to cover them. But, you know, he would

buy drinks for people randomly in a bar if you, you know, saw a couple sitting that looked like maybe they were young and he took to them, he would just go over and say, look, I want to buy all your drinks tonight. He would do things like that. But he also did funny things, you know, he traveled with the team a lot, more than any owner ever would, by the way, on the plane. And again, this didn't make him in the documentary, but he routinely, towards his later years, before they went on the tarmac and crossed the tarmac to get on the plane, he would

go and pee on the front wheel of the plane. and I don't know what that was about, but he did it on every flight. And I mean, now as a pastor on that plane, I'm not sure if that would be a good thing, but they got off the ground every time. But you hear these things, and I think it's, you know, there's no end to that. Did that get covered in a documentary? No. But there's a hundred stories.

How did you not put that story when I asked you about cutting room floor? Come on. That had to be. It wasn't footage. There wasn't footage. There was no footage of Harold being on a plane. So unfortunately. Yeah.

We couldn't figure out if that was just folklore or if that actually really happened. Someone would have taken a picture of it. We would have known for sure. Actually, I'll tell you my favorite while we're on this topic. And this came our way. Harold could get on the phone and call any sports editor at any paper and was guaranteed a headline the next day. There was a women's club in Toronto that was a women's country club for, you know, business women, powerful feminists in the city called the McGill Club.

It was their own thing. Unfortunately, they got into some financial pressure. They had to sell their building and vacate. Harold got wind of that and being kind of the misogynist he was. He looked at it as an opportunity. And he announced the media that he was buying the McGill Club. and in the moment it was vacated, he was turning it into a Playboy club. And there was no truth to it.

He never made an approach to the McGill Club. He got ink in the paper the next day, and it was only just to piss off a whole demographic of successful women in the city. So, I mean, you can't make that stuff up. Of course, it never materialized, but that's the kind of inhaled laughed harder than anybody, but that I'm sure. So that was the Herald and the stories continue, by the way. That's what I mean when I say his stories took on a life of their own. I mean, it just, like Jason said, some were folklore, some were true. We're going to leave you with one more, guys.

We've all heard of the curse of Harold Ballard, the Harold Ballard curse, whatever you want to call it, leave still having won a Cups in 67. If the Toronto Maple Leafs win the cup this year, are you going to try to take credit for breaking that curse finally with this document? That's true. 100%. Absolutely. Yes.

And I would hope that Toronto Maple Leafs would invite me to some sort of a ceremony to celebrate us and our film as an integral part of finally breaking the curse. Get you in the parade. You'll be in the parade if they win the Stanley Cup. In the parade, and I would take it a step further. I'd want a pair of platinum. Oh, wow. Yeah.

Wow, spoken like someone who wants you. Yeah. Who's thinking long term. The doc is offside the Harold Ballard story. It's fantastic. Guys, thanks so much for doing this. We really appreciate it. Look forward to more of your stuff.

Thanks, guys. Thanks to talk to you. Jason Priestley and Michael Gettis. Guys, you both have covered teams for a lot of years and you've covered owners. I think you should count your lucky stars. You never had to cover someone like Harold Ballard. But have you had any experiences? What's it like, you know, you deal with players, you deal with coaches, you deal with GMs,

but I assume dealing with an owner is a completely different beast, isn't it? Jesse? Yeah, it's, I'm very lucky dealing with Bill Foley. I mean, he's as good as it gets when it comes to, like, access in terms of just being a guy. Like, I don't think I've told this story on here before, but just sometimes I forget I'm talking to a billionaire when I'm talking to Bill Foley because he's just such a normal guy. He's just like, I'll just be having a conversation. He's just a guy. And then one time I was, so it was during the summer and I'm on a fishing trip. And I had been trying to get him for a while. And they finally call me. And I'm literally in the mountains. I couldn't even believe I got service. And I'm like, okay, well, I wasn't ready for this

interview, but I've been trying to get him. So I'm going. Hey, Bill, how's going? What are you doing? Jesse? Oh, I'm just fishing right now. He's like, oh, cool. Where are you fishing? What lake? I told him. What are you fishing for? And then he goes, yeah, so I got a lake that I own up in Montana. And I have them, stock it full of salmon. And that's what I do. I catch the salmon. I'm just like, yeah, for a second there, I forgot you were a billionaire. This is just a very clear reminder that you and I are not living the same type of lives. I drive eight hours to get to a lake to catch fish that I hope are there. You own a lake, buy the fish to put in the lake so that you can catch them. But yeah, Bill Foley, he's awesome. He's good to deal with. He's about as normal of a guy as you'll find

for billionaires. Yeah, I mean, Sam of Craig Leopold. Um, we are, are super, super lucky. He's owned the wild since 2008. He's the most accessible owner I've ever covered in my life. Text him, email him. He gets back to you in a second. Shoot the breeze with them constantly via text email in person. You know, gotten together dinners and cigars. And, you know, it really is, you know, it helps to cover the team and to know that you are talking to somebody that is part of the decision-making process. And he's just really good at really gauging the temperature of a lot of things and things like that. Every year he invites the media to be in a suite during preseason.

I mean, I have a gazillion stories about just, you know, the ability to cover somebody that simply. And he is an every man. Like anybody that's ever met him will tell you that. He's the guy that you want to go sit at the end of the bar with. and have a beer. And similarly, you'd absolutely never know, unless he follow his incredible yacht on Twitter, on Instagram, on Instagram, on Instagram, on the world. You'd never know that he's a billionaire as well.

I mean, you know, so, you know, we're very, very lucky that we don't cover Harold Ballard. That's for sure. But does he own a lake? If he doesn't own a lake, is he really an individual owner? Well, I think he owns a private island in the Bahamas, if that counts. man we are just dealing with different human beings like you said jesse when you when you're dealing with owners but yeah harold ballard man if you haven't seen it go check it out i am fascinated by people like that that have that have money but yet are so down-to-earth human you know and and

uh but because you know from somebody that's been a sports writer's entire life you do wonder how the heck is it even possible to gain the wealth that these people do right i landed you know I fly across this world and I sit in the window seat and every time you look down and you fly into all these cities and you see these just insane mansions and and but there's hundreds of them. You're like, where do these people get the money? And, you know, so I'm always fascinated about that. But then when you actually meet somebody like Craig Leopold and you realize, my God, this guy is just so normal. I just, you know, it is. It's reassuring. I covered Alan Cohen in Florida. Alan was more of an eccentric guy, but extremely nice, accessible, things like that.

I remember the first time I ever sat down with an owner. It was Wayne Heis ago when he owned the Florida Panthers right after the Pavel Burray trade. And I remember looking in his like blue eyes and being so intimidated that I was talking to him. You know, this guy was bigger than life, right? Owned waste management and blockbuster video and the Miami Dolphins. And here I am across the table from him. And I just remember being so absolutely nervous talking on. He didn't give off the same vibe.

I'll tell you that Alan Cohen and Craig Leopold and Bob Nagley did. That's for sure. Ah, Matt, check up the doc because, Like these guys are saying, there are owners, and then there's Harold Mout. After the break, the soap opera that is the Vancouver Canucks, we're going to dissect that very interesting press conference from one Jim Rutherford after the break. So don't go anywhere. So on Monday, Jim Rutherford, guys, as you very well know, held a press conference,

president of hockey operations from Vancouver Canucks, who are in another tailspin. And just like he's done a few times this year, just dropped a whole bunch of bombshells. in this press conference. Let me just say a couple of the lines that you guys tell me what jumped out the most to you. Of course, he was asked about the standings and, you know, the big prize of Connor Bredd. And he said, quote, I thought we were tanking.

We're pretty close to the bottom on making changes with the team. He said, quote, we have to do major surgery. We're going to have to do some things that I didn't think we'd have to do when I first got here. On Bo Horvatt in his contract, we, I believe, have taken our best shot. The contract we had on the table for Bo's a fair contract for what he's done up until this year, but it's certainly under market value for what he's done this year. And then I know this is the one Russo wants to touch on his head coach Bruce Boudreau. He said, Bruce is our coach now and did add that he's talked to coaching candidates.

I just, I can't believe he said that out loud. It was the whole presser was about 45 minutes. I rewatched it again before the show just to refresh my memory. And I was just as baffled the second time. Russo, the floor is yours. All right. First of all, let me preface everything by saying that I have a good relationship with Jim Rutherford.

I've known him for 28 years. This guy used to treat me like gold when he was the GM and the Carolina Hurricanes. I have an immense amount of respect for him. I'd give everything to cover him because he's as canned. as he is and always accessible. The Bruce Boudreau thing has driven me crazy all season long. I just don't understand what Bruce has done to deserve to be treated with such a lack of respect from the very beginning, dating to last summer when he was essentially forced to accept

their one-year extension or not get paid and leave when he had opportunities, by the way, to maybe go to Vegas or other places to coach. and it just to make him a lame duck since last May and June, and then to constantly publicly basically question the way that Bruce is coaching the team. And then to have your head coach know that behind the scenes now publicly that you're talking to other candidates and that Rick Tocke might be the next coach of the Canucks or whatever, I just don't, I don't understand it. It's just, you know, this guy is one of the most winning.

regular season coaches in the history of this sport. He's as good a person as you've ever met. And I just don't understand. And by the way, Jim, Jim, you know, and him have had a good relationship for a long time. Like when Jim was GM of the Pittsburgh Penguins, I used to always see them down by the locker room talking together, whatever the wild were in town. Drew famously scored, I think, his first NHL goal against Jim Rutherford, by the way. That's what it is.

Yeah. He's been holding that against him. I just, you know, it's either that or Jim's first goal he gave up, whatever it was. But like, I just don't, it makes no sense to me that you would just, just fire him. Put him out of his fucking misery, man. Like, let's save his life here because I can't imagine the stress that he's under. Like, this is just stupid. Just send him on his way.

Let him get paid for the last four months of the season and go make us all entertained on TNT or TNT or TSN or NHL network or something. Like, this isn't fair, man. And, you know, it just makes no sense to me. I just don't understand, you know, why at this point they just don't get rid of them. Like, it's just, it really isn't, it isn't fair that you every day are making this guy come to work to coach a team. What do you think the players in that locker, and you think they're going to listen to Bruce Boudreau now when they know that's it? I mean, it's just so fucking stupid. And Jim's a smart guy.

It makes no sense to me. Yeah, I totally agree with everything you said, especially that last part of like, so like, this isn't something new. GMs or president of hockey ops talking to potential candidates before they fire a coach. Quietly. Quietly. Exactly. And actually, just to interrupt real quick, Jesse, like, I, you know, I know it's like I'm trying to make, you know, like him seem like a victim here, Bruce.

Bruce was in, when he was fired by the Washington Capitals, he was in Anaheim the night knowing that Randy Carly was getting fired after that game and he was going to be named the next day. So this happens all the time. I don't mind that. It's just the fact that this is dragged on for. month. Right. And the fact that it's public. Like I, like, I mean, the Golden Knights literally fired Gerard Gallant and hired Pete DeBore in the same press release. It was the same, it was one press release.

Gerard Gallant is no longer the coach. Pete DeBore is now the coach. Clearly, they talk to Pete DeBore before they officially fired Glant. This happens all the time, but to say it publicly and still have him coaching the team, the part you said at the end about the players, like, how is Bruce Boudreau supposed to tell these players anything and have them listen to him and take him seriously. If your president of hockey ops has already said, yeah, we've talked to plenty of guys that we're thinking about bringing in as a coach. It's like when this, when this coach tells a guy do this or I'm going to bench you, the player can respond, not for long, though. You're like, the next coach isn't going to bench me. Like it puts Bruce in an impossible situation. If you're

going to do this, why not fire him, hire an interim or promote an interim until you find the guy you want. It makes no sense to publicly trash him the way he has and flat out say, we're looking at new candidates while keeping him the coach. I just don't understand. This is the third time we've had this conversation. This is the third time. All year long. I mean, a week into the season, two weeks into the season, Jim said how much he didn't like their training camp and all this stuff. It just, it just, this has been going on for several, several months. And it just has made no sense to me. And you think that like, you know, they got strong personalities and that fucked up locker room strong ones you think j t miller is going to sit there and respect bruce boudreau now like

you know when bruce tells him to treat dully with a little respect you know i mean like it just it makes no sense uh you know it's just i don't know it's uh whatever the vancouver canucks are a mess a soap opera a drama whatever you want to call it that is the vancouver canucks so i look forward guys to about a month from now when we have another instance where jim brother It says a whole bunch of stuff about Bruce Boudreau. We'll talk about it again as well. That's it for another great show, guys. What are you working on this week?

Jesse. Well, the goalie power rankings that I hyped up last week is finally coming out. I'm, or the goalie mask power ranking, sorry. It's more important than the actual play on the ice is the artistic design on the masks. So hopefully everybody's as excited for that as I am. God, I wish people could see your face right now. Like, he is like legit. Just imagine like a giddy,

giddy kid talking about something he absolutely loves. And that is Jesse, like Jesse's face right now. It's pretty cool. And you've conned people to give you money every two weeks to do something like this, right? Like it's, yes,

it's crazy. Yeah. My story about what it's like to be in an NHL locker and during admissions that runs next, I think Monday, working on that story. I was in the NHL situation room like we talked about, I think on last week's show,

that story will come out probably right before the allster game. These stories are, we have something in the athletic called A, one that sort of runs on every app, whether you follow that feed or me or whatever. So, you know, sometimes these stories get pushed back a little. So that's the plan at least of now. Jesse and I will both be an all-star weekend. That'll be really fun.

Mark Lazarus, Corey Praman will be part of her team as well. So that'll be cool. And then obviously, I'm here in Raleigh right now. I've got the Wild and Hurricanes tomorrow. And then Joe Smith is on the father-son trip in Tampa and Florida next week. And a lot of cool stories has she in the works. Thanks, boys. Everybody be sure to check out that.

And everybody, be sure, as I tell you, each and every week, guys, get that annual subscription to The Athletic right now. Just two bucks a month when you visit Theathletic.com slash hockey show. And we're on YouTube. Go check out the YouTube channel. It's YouTube.com slash The Athletic Hockey Show. The Athletic Hockey Show is back Thursday with Ian Mendez and Down Goes Brown. I want to say thanks to Charlie O'Connor.

Thanks to Jason Priestley. Thanks to Michael Gedis for coming on. Thanks to you, Russo. Thanks to you, Jesse. See, three of us are going to be back next week speaking to Mike Murphy, who recently retired after a 50-year career as a player, a coach, and then, of course, in the war room. So be sure to tune into that next week. Thanks for listening. We'll talk to you in seven days.