The Athletic Hockey Show - Jim Rutherford on Trade Deadline 2021, Avalanche, Sabres, Blues, Maple Leafs & Jets look to be active at the deadline

Episode Date: April 7, 2021

On this edition of Two Man Advantage, Scott and Pierre welcome three time Stanley Cup Champion Jim Rutherford, one of the most proactive General Manager's in NHL history. Jimmy looks back on his record of trade deadline deals from his time as a manager with Hartford, Carolina and Pittsburgh.Scott and Pierre discuss what teams might be the most active leading up to the deadline. The improved Nashville Predators have decisions which need to be made, are they a playoff team? The same questions apply to Columbus Blue Jackets, St. Louis Blues, Arizona Coyotes and the Boston Bruins. Plus in the North Division, Toronto and Winnipeg are keen to make impact deals.Pierre tells Scott that he is looking forward to seeing what the Colorado Avalanche might have up their sleeve, with goaltending being a top priority and Lebrun takes Burnsie behind the scenes of trade deadline day at TSN.Finally, the boys taken your questions on the Kraken, Sabres, Habs and Red Wings. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey, everybody, Scott Burnside back for another edition of Two Man Advantage, the Athletic Hockey Show. Oh my gosh, Trade Deadline ticking ever nearer. What a show we're going to have today, Pierre LeBron. We're going to have Hall of Fame, GM, Jim Rutherford. I'm so excited because Jim, no one knows a trade deadline better than Jim Rutherford. No one has been knee-deep in trades more than Jim Rutherford over the year. So I'm looking forward to catching up with him and getting so. some of his observations on the trade deadline,

which is Monday at 3 p.m. Eastern. You and I will answer some questions. And I want to start. I'm just going on. I haven't even allowed you to say hello. Hi, Pierre. How are you? Amal right.

I'm all right. Next time we chat, the most lackluster, potentially trade deadline in a show history will be over. But we'll have some trades. We'll have some trades. Maybe Taylor Hall before the end of the week here, given he was held out of the lineup last night and the senses that the sabres are in those discussions.

So we'll see where that goes over the next day or two. I'm absolutely fascinated. I don't know why. Maybe it's being trapped in my house for, you know, 15 months or whatever it is. I'm fascinated by what happens to Taylor Hall? What's his value after, you know, a couple of really horrific seasons? And, you know, if he gets traded, it'll be his fourth team since the start. of the 1920 season.

I'm fascinated by his value. I'm curious about Kyle Palmieri. You talk about players who have been held out for precautionary measures, which means they hope to trade them and don't want them to get banged up. Palmieri, out of the devil's lineup, I'm such a huge fan of Kyle Palmieri. Like, to me, he's a guy I would want on my team all the time. And I'm curious to see about him. And the other guy, and former guest on Two Man Advantage,

Nick Folino, the captain of the Columbus Blue Jackers. Now, they're coming off a huge win over Tampa, so not out of it in the Central, but he's another guy that I'd be like, oh, I would love to have him on my team for a stretch run and a playoff drive. So I'm curious about all those guys. Yeah, I always felt with Columbus

that they would go right to Monday on their decisions, but maybe I'm wrong about that because, again, last night they beat Tampa yet again, by the way. They kind of had Tampa's number. And it feels like they, you know, this is a team. that could get back into it, but then that came out for three losses, right? So I don't.

Columbus is so confusing to me this year. And, you know, the Fulingo deal, if it happens, that's an emotional one, I think, Fiormo Coakland. And Nick Fulingo's been their heart and soul guy, their captain. And that's not just one of those as well. Let's do some asset management here. You know, this is a human being, both in the community and throughout the organization that has meant a lot.

So I don't know that that one's a slam dunk. No, but to me, that would be one of those ones in, you know, knowing Yarmal Kekhalainen a little bit and certainly knowing Nick, that you just, you'd have that, I assume they'd just have that conversation. Hey, if this happens and he's got a limited no trade, so he or his people are going to be involved anyway. But to me, that's one of those things. You don't, you make it work for both sides. And who knows, you know, if you're Yarmokke Kalainen, nothing to. stop you from circling back in the offseason and bringing Nick back for a year or short-term deal one or two years or whatever it is. But yeah, and I don't know. I just, I think there's such mutual respect there that it wouldn't be. So, you know, maybe I'm reading too much into it, but my antenna went up yesterday when I interviewed Caldouis, the Leaf General Manager, and he said that, you know, the play of Alex Kalcenaeuk had reduced the urgency that they felt they had to fill that second line winger void, right?

Because he's played so well of late, or well, in a way, with Tavarice and Nielander. But he said in the same sentence, just so we're clear, it wasn't me asking him another question. He kept on going and said, but if we have a chance to upgrade at that position,

someone that fits well in our locker room and on the ice, dot, dot, dot, dot. And I was wondering if he was trying to hit something at me, or if I'm, or if he's, maybe you just throwing me off the set like a lot of GMs do it this time of year. But I was curious whether what I read into that, and that's what I put in my column,

is that I wonder if he's talking about, you know, he's added guys like Thornton and Begoge and Wayne Simmons, who are these glue guys full of experience, the guys you want come play out of time, right? And I'm wondering if that's what he's hinting at. And of course, automatically, I thought the highest possible version of that potentially in the market was Nick Foligno. Now, it could be you could dial it all the way down and say that Scott Watton has, you know, has had some playoff games with the Flyers and he plays a hard game by all accounts well like by his teammates in Philly. So I don't know. It could be, it could be a lot of different versions of what Dubus was inting out there. But I'd be curious to see what that ends up being, if at all,

if they make a move. Well, to me, this is, again, the great, you know, you talk about going to the wire and Columbus is one of those teams presumably that, you know, right now they have the, you know, they have a win percentage of 4-6-3, which is, you know, which is 7th in the central division. Points-wise, they're, you know, they're still in it, but, you know, they still got two teams to dislodge if they're going to be a playoff team in the central. But so my question, let me circle back to this, the teams who are like, are, you buyers or sellers,

like, Yarmal Keklena at some point will have to make that decision. I think the same kind of decision, you know, exists in Nashville for David Poyle, um, whose team now occupies the fourth spot in the central. So it was a playoff team after being sort of left for dead about a month ago.

To me, that's a team that if you're in a playoff spot in your David Poyle and you look at that roster, aren't you in? Aren't you in? Like, if you're not a, if you're not out there actually looking to add, you're not selling off Matthias Eckholm or Michael Granland or, you know, those players, are you? Probably not at this point. I mean, I feel like I like their chances as much of any of those teams in the four-team race for fourth, you know,

Nashville, Chicago, Columbus, Dallas. I feel so bad to the stars. I mean, the COVID and the schedule this year just, you know, it just put them in a, they never had a chance. But you know, they still have games in hand on everyone. We should note. But it feels like, I don't know, and Chicago has been a terrific story, but it's a terrific story, given how surprising their compete level has been as they transition that roster. But I feel like Nashville is the best shot of that group.

And, you know, two weeks ago I felt Columbus did, but now I feel like Nashville does. And, you know, I have to be honest about that. But, you know, I think if you're Nashville, you're certainly, I mean, listen, I've talked to some teams that, you know, we're hoping to dip into some of those players in Nashville, and now they've been told, don't know. So my sense is that David Poyle was going to continue to listen right to Monday, but with, you know, certainly more discernible now, right? Doesn't have to do, doesn't have to sell because he's got a chance to get in.

Now, here's the thing I would say out of caution to that. And maybe it'll transition us to Doug Armstrong and the Blues, because I think there's quite an interesting conversation to be had there. I'm always curious about GMs who sit back and their actions, their actions say something perhaps different than their words at the deadline in the sense that, okay, we have a chance to get in, but are we really going to win around? Okay. Okay.

So now, listen, at the end of the day, I mean, as we speak today, Florida is in first place of the central, the surprising panthers. Who's to say Nashville can't upset Florida? I mean, at the start of the year, you would have had those teams pretty closely ranked at each other, right? So maybe the answer is Nashville looks at the standings and says, hey, what if we get Florida? You know, I see that with all due respect. The Panthers have been an unbelievable story. But the two teams, you have to, if you're Nashville, you have to generally say with a straight face that if you get in the first round, you're not going to beat is probably Tampa and Carolina.

So, again, you know, maybe they shouldn't sell. because they've been playing so great and they got a chance to make the playoffs. But what if they get a kind of offer for one of their players where it's like, this helps us set us in a better shot for next year? Like the Predators aren't going to win the Cup.

I guess is what I'm going to get. So you really got to balance those two things. And that's why, I mean, St. Louis, Doug Armstrong has an unbelievable history of saying, here's what I think about my team right now. As you know. So I think the next five days are going to be fascinating from a blues perspective. I talked about that on insider trading last night.

Well, okay. So, and I think that's a great segue because I'm with you. But I don't think those situations are necessarily, maybe the arc kind of parallel. To me, when I look at that West Division, and I look at Colorado and Vegas at the top, and however it's going to shake down right now Colorado's so on fire best team in hockey plus 50 goal differential like just they're unbelievable Vegas not far behind I mean there are four points back down so anyway it doesn't matter those two teams are with all due respect to Minnesota which has been a great story with the no if it's not Colorado and Vegas in the second

round then then you know something dramatic happened like come on and I think that central is just a little bit different. And to me, Nashville, yes, I agree with you. Okay, they're probably not going to win the Stanley Cup. But that team is still, there's still a core of players that went to a Stanley Cup final in 2017. I know that, okay, that's four years ago. That's, you know, time has changed. That's still a roster to me that has the parts. Now, they've been disappointing in the last couple of years. But I, I'm fascinated to see, especially the way they're playing now, Nashville's going to be a handful. I don't care whether it's Carolina, Tampa, or Florida, they're going to be a handful. But the West is, that's a little bit different. And I, and I am like you, curious to see what Doug Armstrong does with a Blues team that has been, man, the bottom has completely fallen out on them. They, you know, they can't win. They can't score. They can't stop any goals. They've juggled their goaltenders. And Doug Armstrong, to your point, has made moves at the deadline where he has sold assets and still gone to the playoffs. I think of Kevin Chattonkirk and Paul Stass?

He's my GM hero for it. Yeah, exactly. Because, you know, I had another team executive say this about Doug Armstrong once to me. He goes, that's a guy that has confidence in his position in the organization when he does that. Right. I mean, there's not a lot of GMs we feel that good about. And maybe it's not even, you know, no what? Maybe it's not even that.

Maybe it's just this is who I am. But, you know, he traded Kevin Chattonkirk at the deadline in 2017 with the blue still in a playoff spot, but not, but saying, you know what? I got to get a return on Chatton Kirk because we kept all our UFAs. I think it was a year before, right, when they lost in the conference final. And, frankly, what he was saying is we're not winning the cup this year. So he does it. The year after, there are a point out of the playoffs, and he trades Paul's Tashi in a Winnipe, who is a pending UFA. So, you know, I think it's, you know, I think it's fascinating.

And frankly, this team is probably a little more behind than those two teams in the sense that they're five points back. Now, you know, Arizona is not the most solid team ever either. So certainly I could see the blues coming back into that spot. But, you know, Mike Hoffman's a UFA, Tyler Bozak's a UFA at the end of the year, and Jane Schwartz. Now, the two names I mentioned on inside trading were Hoffman and Bozac, because I think those are more obvious that, you know, Bozac's 35. I don't see the Blues bringing him back unless you do. Hoffman's interesting. I mean, there was a chance for that to maybe be a marriage pass this year, I think when the year started, but I don't think it's been a great fit at the end of the day.

And he can help. And it's funny because all this hype over Taylor Hall. And listen, I'm a big Taylor-Hall fan. I think he's not a very good year. He only has two goals. I do think that on a better contender here, and he's going to get a good. obviously dealt here over the next few days that or before Monday, you know, Taylor Hall will be better. But Mike Hoffman has nine goals. And, you know, if you're a

team that needs help in your parlor play or just need a little more offense, why not go get Mike Hoffman? Jayden Schwartz is interesting to me because I don't think they want to deal him. I think that, I think, you know, Doug Armstrong was quoted earlier this season saying, you know, he's shorts as an original blue and they'd like to get something done so i think maybe he's the guy that the ufa that sticks around but we'll see well so the blues and i'd like you know listen i'd love the way that team's constructed of course they're you know the memory of that stanley cup run is is still very fresh right i mean it's the core is still very much there and so if they do get in are they a team that could be a handful for a colorado i think that's that's something

thing. But to me, Arizona is another interesting issue to consider with Bill Armstrong there. His first trade deadline as the GM of the coyotes. We know the issues that they've had with draft picks and, you know, assets. There are so many, you know, Jacob Chitrin for me, oh my gosh, what a, what a revelation. What a season for that kid. And probably the best kept secret nationally for sure. Oh my God. Oh my God. Yeah. No, he's just been. outstanding. And remember when we had Doug Armstrong on, no relation, on our show, and talking about Connor Garland and, you know, there's lots to like about Arizona. But to your original point, are you, if we saw what happened when Arizona played Colorado in the first round after the

they beat Nashville in the playing round, they're no, they're not in that same class. So you got a bunch of UFAs on the blue line, Nick Yomerson and Alex Gologoski and, you know, so do you, you know, what do you do if you're Bill Armstrong when you realize, you know, it would be great to make the playoffs. It's great for those kids, but do you need to try and do some asset management while you can at the trade deadline? To me, that's another fascinating, you know, dilemma or debate that must be going on internally in Arizona. So no team is in a tougher spot in the entire national hockey league as far as the deadline. I don't want Sabers fans jumping down my throat here.

As far as where they are in the standings at the deadline, no team is in a tougher spot than the Arizona Coyotes. And for everything you just described, because this will really give you the truth serum about ownership there in Arizona, because if you're able to take a step back and look at what this organization needs and keeping in mind the draft penalties that they incurred for the draft prospect cheating last year, but They don't have a first. So they didn't get a first last year and a second last year, right?

They didn't get one or the other. Now this year they don't have a first. They don't have a third. They traded the third. Yeah, they traded the third. So now they do have two seconds. But this is a team in dire need of picks and prospects, right? Right.

If they finish fourth, they're playing Colorado or Colorado or Vegas. Either way. Come on. Yeah. Right? So, but you have, you know, owners trying to make a splash net market. So this is the great counterintuitive moment of all in the entire league in my mind. What the long term should trump the short term, but it may not necessarily do that.

And maybe it's a bit of both. Maybe it's you sell off one piece or two pieces, but keep other pieces to stay competitive in the now. But to me, I mean, they got, geez, they got one, two. two, three, four, five, six, seven. I'm just looking at the cat-friendly page, seven, eight, nine UFAs that I can see in a way. So to me, you got to flip some of them and do what's right for moving this program forward.

And so it'll be interesting to see, you know, what Bill Armstrong will have to do that way. Yeah. So what you're saying is they will reacquire Taylor Hall but trade Alex Gologoski and Nick Yomerson and Antirontas. So, okay, yeah, no, I'm with you. It is, listen, we, you know, we sort of joked off the top, but, oh, this, you know, this, you know, that could be the non-event of the century Monday afternoon. I mean, it's still, even if, you know, even if Arizona just stands pat and they don't do anything.

Wow, which would be, which would be terrible. Yeah. Right. Yeah. No, yeah. No, I, you know, right. I mean, yeah, for sure. It's a story. No question. And listen, we're going to have trades. It's just going to be half of what we're used to.

I mean, Taylor Hall will move. Calle Palmyri will move. You know, we know those things. You know, probably Brandon Montour, who had a bit under the radar. I think that he put him on a better team that he can help your back end. And I think some of the buyers are intriguing to me that haven't acted yet. I mean, I could sense in Calduis's voice yesterday that, you know, he has a, in his short GM career, he's got a little Jimmy Rutherford in him and he's made his deals early, right? He got Jake Muzzin in late January a couple years ago and he got Jack Campbell, which is now turning into one of the great deals.

He got Jack Campbell last season in early February, you know, just under four weeks ahead of the deadline. So that's, he's actually his preferred window. He just wasn't able to do it. season and this rather unique season where the teams just weren't ready to announce themselves as sellers fast enough, right? So, but it'll be interesting, you know, what does he do? What does Winnipeg do? Kevin Shevallelay off, man, if he can get, somehow get a top four defenseman, I think that changes some of the dynamics in that North Division.

I mean, the Leafs, to me, are the best team. Winnipeg spends a little too much time in their own zone for my liking. And, listen, Derek Forburd's a great story that he plays 21 minutes a night. I don't know that he should be playing 21 minutes a night. And no, and that's not a, listen, good for him. Like, he's filled a role there. And it's a role that I'm sure no one on the Kings saw coming when, you know, they let him go. And he's in Winnipeg now.

But my point is, the Jets, if they could somehow figure that out. And, you know, I know that Josh Manson has been on their radar, but my sense of Anaheim and Manson is only an overpay gets you Josh Manson, that they really like Josh Manson. that they really like Josh Manson and Anaheim. He's signed for another year. My guess is this summer they may even go to him and try and do an extension. But if someone is willing to do a first round pick and a top prospect, they might listen before Monday, right? Yeah.

No, I think that, you know, for me, I'm curious about a guy like David Savard and Columbus on an expiring contract. He'd be good in one big too, for sure. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, and there are teams, there are a number of teams that are looking to fill some sort of void. Now, you know, the Bruins need some help on the left side on the blue line. I think the Bruins, you know, I agree with you on that, but I think they like what their kids have done there. I think what they're going to do is go get a top six four before Monday in Boston.

Now, okay, so I'm curious, do you think it, does it cost them, Jake DeBrusk? Because that's, you know, that's part of the story of the Flute Ocean Zawar, great guy in Boston, did a great great breakdown on what happens if you trade Jake de Brescott and he suddenly you know he puts up 70 points somewhere else or whatever yeah and I agree with fluto that's the danger of selling low right yeah so it's still a kid yeah right it's still that's like Edmonton felt they had no choice you know to trade the justin shultz uh and we'll ask Jim ruttford about that later in the podcast but uh yeah you know traded justin sholtz at his lowest possible value in 2016 to pittsburgh forgot him for a bag of bucks.

And you knew what was going to happen. He won two cups. Yeah. And he was back to being a top four guy. And so that's, I'm totally with Pluto on that one. I try to find a way to keep the brusk and prop them back up next season, hopefully by the end of the season. I think the Bruins, I know they haven't played like their normal brand, their normal, I think

watch out for them come playoff time. I think that's what they're waiting for. Especially if they can make a few moves here before Monday. And, you know, the Bruins are fascinating to me because Don Sweeney is a super smart guy, very analytical mind. You know, he's been measured in his last few trade deadlines. He's not gone crazy, right? I mean, a lot of his moves have actually been hockey deals, not always rentals. You know, we talked about Arizona having the counterintuitive emotions, right?

I think Boston has some counterintuitive emotions, and that is this. I think that Don Swede, deep down, knows he needs to start transitioning this roster. Right? And the Bruins have done it better to almost anyone over the last several years the way they keep doing that. Yes. Yep. But the emotional side of this is we got to get Patrick's Pershing all we got here. Right? Yeah. I mean, he's not playing forever. So, you know, those are, those things are not always aligned is what I'm saying. You know, there might be a deal there that really helps you for this year's playoffs, but does not really help.

help you in the transition is what I'm saying. Yeah, I will say Boston's one of the teams that I'm most curious about between now and Monday afternoon for that for that very reason. And, you know, right now they're in fourth place. But they got to, no, listen, the Rangers are a great story. Oh, like just pouring pucks in the net now. Like it's, it's unbelievable, the switch that has gone on in New York and Adam Fox is so good there. And, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's fun to watch that team now. But there are five points back of the Bruins. And the Bruins have two games in hand. So I think the Bruins are going to be a playoff team.

But there's also, yeah, and they've had all kinds of injuries. Now they're goalies, you know, Dan Vlader plays. And then I'm going to embarrass myself now. Because they had a kid who got his first win last night, Swayman. You know, they will go back to back with two basically, you know, third and fourth goalies on your depth chart and still plugging along. But, yeah, I'm with you. I think they're, throw it all out when,

you know, May 14th or 15th or whenever the playoffs are going to start, because that's a Bruins team that will be a handful in a very tightly packed East Division. So I'm curious to see how Don Sweeney handles it. But, okay, I want to ask, what team, is there a team one or two that you're like, okay, this is going to be fun to watch how they navigate the next four or five days? Who are you looking at? I think Colorado, you know, best team in a league. And I just, for the life of me, and I've repeated this now for about two weeks, for the life of me, if they enter the playoffs with Grubauer and no other insurance behind him and goal, I just can't believe that. I just can't believe that.

So, and again, we're under the impression. We're not going to see Pavel Franzus again this year. So, you know, I know they went on and got Johansson. That's not cut again. That's not insurance. He's okay as your three. But. So that's the move that has to happen for me. You know, whether that's, I don't know, whether that's Jonathan Bernie or Ryan Miller or Devin Dubnick. That Dubnick could be fun there. Yeah. Just you got it. And I think the experience is necessary. Not just a goalie, but a guy who's been around who will understand his role and also not be scared of the spotlight if Grubauer goes down.

Now, again, there's no reason to think Grubauer is going to go down. and he's healthy right now and playing lights out, but he did last year. So, so, yeah. So that's the move that has to happen for me before Monday's deadline. Yeah. All right. We're going to take a break in a minute and we're going to come back with Jim Rutherford. And it's going to be great.

But I'm curious because I never get invited to like the TSN, you know, trade deadline panel day, you know, like in. It's funny. I was on a, I did a show yesterday with Eric DeHatchuk. And he was talking about being on the panel. and that, you know, he was like on the writer's table. And once every two hours, he would come to the writer's table and ask him what they thought. But when the action really heated up, it was, you know, it was you and Bobby Mac and Taryn and Tarynx and Tarynx and Trey and Dragon and all those guys.

But what's it like for you? Like when you, what time do you have to get there on trade deadline day? What's that day like? Because it's, it's like a national holiday in Canada. Let me look at my email here. There's so many emails that go into the preparator. And that's the big thing I got to say that, you know, the real story of Trade Center is the people behind the scenes.

I mean, we get, although I'm like, Duffy, you know, Gordon Miller, Dregs, Bobby, me, Ray Ferreira, all the people that you see on camera, but it's the people behind the scenes that do everything. I mean, Steve Dryden, Bill Dotson, the work they put into Trade Center is phenomenal, and those are the real, you know, the real MVP's. But I'm just looking, my Trade Center. makeup schedule. Carol LeBron, 7 a.m. is when I get my makeup.

And I think I have an art, probably going to do something with RDS at some point around 7.30 and then we're live at 8 a.m. And then this is going to be a fun, this can be a great day. So we're on all day, obviously. And usually, so the deadline ends at 3, but there's news until about 5. And then we usually do something for Support Center for the 6 p.m. hour. And then I got a 7 p.m. Havs Leaves game to do that night in studio. so that'll be fun

that's good well it is seriously when I say it'll be fun I mean that it's still such a privilege to do what we do for living and I think the past year has given me even more perspective on that you know just amazingly lucky and you know there's stress involved

with chasing the news this week but I've learned to really approach it in such a different way when I was younger I think control that you can control, I guess, would be the way to put it. You know, I always like to text you during trade deadline day because I can see you, but then I like to text you and give you words of encouragement during the trade deadline day. You know that, right? We have, well, I don't want to.

I have a few stories, but I think they're going to wait until I'm no longer into business, yeah, about a funny text that we get on that day from different people in hockey. Yeah. All right. Okay, well, when the book comes out, right? There you go. All right, everybody, here we are. We're back.

And as promised, joined now by Hall of Fame GM Jim Rutherford. And Jim, my math is not my strong suit, but I was looking at it today before we taped. And if I'm not mistaken, since taking over as the GM of the Hartford Whalers in June of 1994 through to this moment, this might be the first NHL trade deadline when the NHL was actually playing that you won't be knee-deep in trade talks and all that kind of stuff. A, is that true? And B, are you just sitting around in slippers in Pittsburgh and with your feet up watching what's going on around the NHL with the trade deadline less than a week away? Or what's that like? Yeah, it's, well, you're correct.

It is the first deadline, of course, except for the years that, that we had to work stoppage, but we weren't trading those years anyways. But this will be the first year since 94. And I am sitting around as a fan and enjoying it like everybody else, curious to see what teams are going to do. Well, if there was ever one to sit out, it might be this one, Jim, to be quite honest.

But teams are a little hamstrung this year with the lack of finances and the flat cap and Seattle and everything. But I'm sure you would have found a way to make nine trades by now if you were still the GM. But let's have fun with all the moves that you've made over the years. And you've been as busy as any GM, certainly during the time Scott and I have covered the national hockey league. And I wanted to start with your philosophy because one thing that you have been known for, going back to the Mark Recky deal in Carolina, even last year, getting Jason Zooker two weeks before the deadline is that you like to act ahead of the deadline if you can. Can you sort of walk us through why that's been important to you over the years?

Well, the sooner you get the player that you identify, the better you're going to feel. You know, I mean, we get into a time of year here, months or so leading up to the deadline and on the deadline where you know that some of the deals are going to work and some aren't. but at the same time, you've identified an area where you'd like to try to improve on your team, and the sooner you can jump in and get the player, the more comfortable you're going to feel. If you go back to 06,

the guy that everybody talked about and wanted, and they knew was going to be available, was Doug Waite from St. Louis. And everybody talked about where he'd go at the deadline. Well, I jumped in early on that one, It was in January, actually, and made that deal well before the deadline, and then Mark Recky was the deadline deal. Oh, I flipped those.

Right. I thought it was the opposite. Okay, but that's right. Yeah, yeah. It was Doug Waite that we got first, and then Mark Recky we got at the deadline. And the biggest thing when we got weight in Carolina was we had a good team. Now, the people did not project that, the experts, when they were picking prior to the season to not project Carolina as even being a playoff team.

And we had a good team. We were on a good run. And by adding Doug Waite that early, it was a statement. It was saying, you know, the organization believes that we're contenders and that we can compete for the cop. And that got the players' attention. And then beyond that, getting reckey, who had already had so much. experience and won a cup. It was,

it meant a lot to the players. Jim, I'm curious. I'm we, you know, Pierre has been at TSN for a long time and it's a big deal. You know, they got a day long trade deadline show and we love the lists and talk about who might get traded and what teams need. As a GM, do you have to really work to ignore all the external noise? I mean, maybe you do that as a course of of daily business anyway, but at trade deadline time, especially, do you have to really step back and say, okay, there's a lot of noise out there, but I really have to drill down on what are our needs, what kind of assets am I willing to give up? Like, how do you balance all the stuff going on

outside? Because there's a ton of it. It's an exciting time of year for fans and everyone around the game. Well, the media does a great job with it. It's a good time to hear because it gives people a lot more to talk about. It's what the fans expect. But from my point of view and our organization's point of view, you know, we don't follow it that close. We do a lot of homework. We know who's available.

We know who we're trying to get. Certainly on trade deadline day, though, we do follow TSN or SportsNAT or, you know, the hockey network, whoever has it on to, you know, see when the trades happen and see who's coming off the board. But as for our organization, we keep it in-house. I mean, pretty much not even around trade deadline. You know, I try to stay away from the rumors and the noise out there because the fact the matter is when you have rumors, they're not all true. If you're dealing with things that aren't accurate, then you can really get confused.

Do you have a couple of favorite trades from the deadline over the years, Jim? I'm looking, it's funny. Cap Friendly has a really nifty device where it has a whole section of Jim Rutherford History of Trades on the Cap Friendly website. So I'm looking at it right now to refresh my memory. And one that I may turn out to be quite useful for you is getting Justin Shrude. Schultz from Emmington on February 27th, 2016 at the deadline. I think it was a day or two for the deadline. And, you know, he was down on his luck, as you remember in Edmonton and was really

kind of being run out of town at that point. And you really got him for a third round pick. And, you know, he ends up playing quite a role for you guys. Yeah, Justin Schultz played a big grow for our two cup years. And, you know, sometimes players just can't get comfortable in certain teams. And they deserve another chance. And Justin Schultz was one of those guys, you know. He lost his confidence a little bit, lost his way a little bit in Edmonton. And he became available.

But we liked him. He played the way our team played. that was an important thing to us. He could transition the puck. He could skate, you know, and he could put up some offensive numbers. And all the things we were looking for, it was, you know,

it always pointed to Justin Schultz, even though he wasn't playing that well. So you have to give a guy another chance, you bring him in, and you try to get his confidence back, and our coaching staff did a good job working with him, and he played very well in pitchers. even the non-cup years. I mean, he was a good player.

Jim, I'm curious. You mentioned the coaching staff. And the thing with trade deadline, and especially as you get to the actual deadline, it's very fluid. And maybe a guy your targeting ends up going somewhere else and all those kinds of things. How closely are you in contact? Let's go back to your time in Pittsburgh. Like, how closely are you talking to Mike Sullivan about, listen, we got a shot at Justin. what do you think or is there time or does it really does that factor into it how do you factor in the coaching staff when you're making these sometimes split second decision it factors in a lot so i don't go and talk to everybody on our staff it's too many people but the point people for the mike solvons obviously the point person so he's aware of what's going on he's talking to mark recie and jock martin and and sergey gongy gongy and sergey gongy gongy And all his guys, Mike Buckley, the goalie coach and everybody.

And he'll come back to me with his opinion on what his staff said. And then, of course, you've got the pro scouting staff. So, you know, you go to Derek Clancy and Ryan Bonas and on and on. You know, I got four probably main point people, the assistant. in those cases, you know, was Jason Botryl and Jason Kermanis, and they would have people they talk to. So everybody's involved, and all that information would be out there and all come back to me. If there was something stood out or a red flag somewhere, then, you know, we'd have more intense

conversations with whatever department that was. But any time that I've made deals, I've never made a deal on my own. everybody's always had their input. Now, you had an agreement on deadline day on March 1st, 2017 that at the time, none of us knew about. It wasn't reported on. It was a private agreement between you and George McPhee, which, of course, was verbal only and then formalized until months later after the Stanley Cup. But as we would unearth later on, you had talked to George McPhee about Mark Andreo Flurry that day. And number one, you keep a heck of a secret.

But maybe walk us through what turned out to be, you know, not just for the penguins, but for Vegas, right? A pretty important moment. Well, we were looking at big time cap trouble at the end of that season. and so we knew something had to give. Mark wasn't comfortable at that point in time with sharing the net as much as he was. He was really a good teammate and never said anything except to me to make me aware of what he was feeling.

And, you know, he was used to play in the majority of the games. And along came a young goalie. and when Mark had hurt, Matt Murray played extremely well, and then all of a sudden they were sharing the net, and one was playing a little more than the other, and it wasn't something that Mark was used to. And so we had good conversations about the future and also where the cap was going.

And so at that point in time, after hearing what he really wanted, which was to go to Vegas, if he had to leave Pittsburgh, and he understood because of the cap he was going to be leaving. So I talked to George McPhee about it, and in short, we had an understanding. You know, there was nothing binding, but we certainly had an understanding that he was going to take Mark, and that kind of relieved the pressure on the organization as far as the cap went going forward. Right.

And the cost was a second round pick. And that's, you know, Vegas had everyone that way leverage-wise, right? I mean, they made a number of deals that way. And it was worth it for you guys. Because as you say, going into that, I guess, that playoff with still the uncertainty hanging over you cap-wise would have been difficult, I guess, right, Jim? Well, definitely. It gets pretty intense when you're dealing with the cap.

and you're trying to keep your team as good or make them better and make sure that you're cap compliant for the following year. So we had to do things that we didn't want to do. I mean, nobody, especially me, didn't want to move Mark Andre Fleury, you know, when he meant to the franchise and what he was capable of doing as a player. But it was something we had to do. I'm curious, Jim, when we think about the actual deadline day, did you have moments where you're literally looking at the clock and it's going towards 3 p.m. Eastern and you're like, okay, maybe you've got two or three balls in the air or whatever it is. But did you have days, deadline days, where it literally went down to the wire to actually get a deal done?

were there were days like that where you had the clock running on you? Yeah, we, I can remember a year in Carolina that we weren't going to the playoffs. We were trying to clean some things up. And nothing seemed to be happening that day. It was, you know, every time we were getting closer to move in a player, you know, the team would go in a different direction. And then in about the last 20 minutes, I think we made three deals because one fell and then the other fell and then the other fell.

I can't remember what the deals were, but I know one deal that Jason Permanis was scrambling to get the name in and timed the league by 3 o'clock so we could have the trade call after 3 o'clock. And it was just a mad scramble to try to get it done. And we did. Now, are there any deals that you can remember were non-deals that either you, that were close, but you couldn't pull it off for different reasons that you look back either and wish you could have in retrospect or, you know, the old saying, best deals you make are the ones you didn't. Something you were looking at that you glad you didn't come together. Any of those come to mind from over the years, Jim? No, not off the top of my head. I'm sure there are some. But, you know, I did this for a long time and made a lot of deals. So I can't think of one just off the top of my head. I always wonder what it's like at the end of trade deadline.

I know having spent many a trade deadline with Pierre that we always like to have a good glass of wine and when the dust clears at the end of it because it's stressful. There's a lot of things going on. And I wonder, you know, so what it's like for a GM and his staff, you mentioned all the people that are involved. and in helping get deals done over the years. What's it like at the end of the trade deadline? And you step back and you assess, okay, how did we do? And are we better than we were yesterday? And how did our opponents and, you know, whatever division you were playing in at the time?

What's it like post-deadline after you've made a move or two? Well, we don't spend a lot of time on it because you really don't know how it's going to play out. I mean, teams can pick up a really good player that was playing very well for his team and end up going to the new team and have a problem adjusting. So to sit and try to analyze it, I mean, it's fun to do, I guess. You know, we sit around for an hour or so and talk about it a little bit. But trying to be accurate on that would be very difficult. Because as we know, there's such a short period of time.

time for these players to adjust or be ready for the playoffs after the deadline. There's not many games left in the regular season. They're coming into a new system maybe. They're coming into new players. And some players can jump right in and adjust and some players can't. You know, the trade deadline has changed a lot over the years too, right? Jim, I was interviewing Lou Lamarillo recently. And, you know, he said he was talking to some of his people about not missing.

but reminiscing about the older days where you made huge hockey deals ahead of the deadline. And really in the cap era, while you can still get good players, the deadline seems to be, you know, your hands are tied so much by the cap. And it's so much about asset management. And it seems like our bigger hockey deals now come in June in the off season, when there's a little more breathing room under the cap and more teams can get involved in different conversations. I mean, what's your sense of the evolution of the trade deadline in all your years? Yeah, I agree with that.

And especially now where we're in the air of the flat cap, I think you're going to see more hockey deals or cap deals and bigger deals leading up to the expansion draft. Teams are going to have guys that they're not going to be able to protect. They're going to be good players. They can either leave them on protected and let Seattle get them, or they can trade them and get a draft pick and lose a lesser player to Seattle. So I would suspect, and of course there will be teens making deals with Seattle for the same reasons.

They don't want to lose a certain player, so they're going to give up a draft pick or give up a younger player or something. And so I think the flurry of deals will come after the Stanley Cup finals when teams are preparing for the expansion draft, the amateur draft, and free agency. What do you think it'll be like for you as you get closer and closer to Monday and the trade deadline? Do you think will you miss it? Will you get that sort of itchy trigger finger? Or do you think you're really going to be able to enjoy it, as you said early on, just as a complete fan this year? What do you think that's going to be like for you?

First time since 1994. It's pretty incredible. Well, I'll definitely miss it. You know, it's been a big part of my life. And despite the fact it's a stressful time, it's, you know, it's also a fun time. And so I'll miss it. But at the same time, I'll enjoy it, you know, because. really, I pretty much stress-free now for the first time in almost 30 years.

And after going through the quarantine period, COVID, and everything that's gone on, it's really been a good time for me to just reset, you know. And so I'll miss it. It'll give me more information to make a decision as to whether, I'm going to retire or whether I'll go back, jump back in with another team at some point in time. But trade deadline day is always fun. You know,

you have all the commentators that are fun to listen to and talking about different players going different places and everything. So I'll enjoy it as a fan. And before we let you go, Jim, you mentioned your future, and I think it was about a month ago, you and I chatted, and I wrote a column about that for the athletic.

And, you know, it'll be an interesting crossroads for you, I guess, this summer. You know, once you deal with the Penguins is up and no doubt teams come calling, you know, do you have a sense yet how you're going to react depending on which teams they are? But I feel like we're going to see you again somewhere, is my prediction. Yeah, time will tell. I mean, I certainly have the itch. I watch as many games as I can every night to follow the players and stay in the loop. I talk to different GMs in the league periodically about different things.

They call me, and, you know, I feel good. You know, I feel like I have a lot of energy, and if I want to work, I'm certainly capable of doing it. But, you know, it'll be interesting when, whenever you're. the time is, for what decision I make, it may not necessarily mean I just make that decision in June or July.

You know, it may mean I make it six months later. So, I'm going to enjoy my time now, enjoy the games now, and then we'll see where it goes. All right. Well, Jim, I can tell you this

that if you get bored on Monday, you can always call Pierre Rai. If you just want to chat, if you got something you want to get off your chest, or, you know, like our line is always open. So feel free to call any time you like on Monday in case you're feeling a little, you know, a little withdrawal. So that door is always open to you. Well, TSN has been lined up to do a couple of little things. So that'll give me something to do.

There you go. See, I was aware of this, but I didn't know if you were going to mention there. not Jim's. Well, you're on the right network, Jim. That's a good thing because I know that if you'd gone another direction, it might have made things a little bit awkward with you. Oh, not at all. Not at all.

It would not have. Hey, I'm not picking and choosing. They're the ones that ask. So I'll look forward to it. That's great. Good stuff. Well, Jim, it's always good to catch up with you. And I'm glad that it's staying safe and healthy and enjoying time and with your family.

and it's always great to catch up and I'm sure we will again soon but thanks for coming and hanging out with us today. Yeah, I always enjoy you guys. Thanks a lot. You tipped your hand, my friend, about your prediction vis-a-vis what happens with Jim Rutherford, but I'm with you.

I think there's a man who's still got lots to give to a hockey team and I know he's mentioned it and you and I've talked about it. It may not be a traditional GM role. Maybe it's the president of hockey. or a senior advisor position. And frankly, I think there are going to be two or three teams who will, it would be a perfect fit. I know we've already talked about Buffalo and his relationship with Kevin Adams there. But I think there are going to be a number of teams maybe that are going to be going through some offseason upheaval. And my guess is that Jim Rutherford will have no shortage of

options if he wants to step back into the game sooner than later. Yeah, I agree. And I think that, you know, the timing is right, I think, in his career to come in as sort of the president of hockey, right? I mean, I just feel like that's the right time where, you know, I just think his experience and his wisdom would be of great benefit to a GM. And yet, in that role, wouldn't have to travel as much. And I think, you know, I just feel like, you know, the same way that Brian Burke is doing that role in Pittsburgh now. I think that there's got to be a team out there that, you know, that looks at Jim Rutherford and says, I think we need to create this position and bring him in. I can think of half a dozen right now that could benefit from his ire.

Yeah, no, I'm with you. And I think, well, I just think there is going to, there may be some movement around the, the NHL and the offseason with teams that have underachieved and maybe looking to shake up how they're structured. So, and games better with Jim Rutherford in it, my friend. If I can share it. That is for sure. That's my feeling on it. All right, everybody. As promised, nearing the end of this edition of Two Man Advantage, the podcast, the final one before the

2021 trade deadline. We've got some Ask the Dork questions here. I like these. How about this one from Matthew Jek's? If you were Gerard Gallant, would you rather be coach of the Buffalo Sabres or Seattle Cracken? That's a great question. What do you think? And the answer's not close. And that's not a shot at the Sabres at all. Because I think if, you know, if the Sabres became an opportunity for Gerard Gilean, knowing him like I do, I think he would be all over it. But if you're going to ask me if it was all things being equal, being offered the Seattle job and the Sabres job, come on.

I mean, the Seattle job would be of interest to any free agent coach. I mean, he just lived it with Vegas too. So that story itself, I think, would be very enticing for Gerard Gile. There's no question of my mind. And honestly, he's the guy that I would hire if I were Ron Francis, but we'll see. We're fracking. I've been doing things a little differently, which has been fun to follow, actually, with that organization so far. But there's no question to answer to Seattle. Okay. Yeah, I think it's interesting, though. I mean, you know, sometimes you get, is it recency bias?

I don't know if that's what even applies here, but the Sabres has been such a nightmare. But, you know, you got number two pick and Jack Eichel, you get number one pick, and Rasmus Dahlin, there's, I mean, I don't know, I'm just saying, I'm not disagreeing with you, but I'm just saying, at some point, Sabre's going to get good, is you and I chat here. Now they're on a, you're on a, that feels like a comment from 10 years ago. Okay. This is one from Sam, DARP 12. Any update on Brendan Gallagher's injury from the Havs game the other night, and maybe more importantly, be given, you. your recent conversation with GM Mark Bergevin, what type of player would the house be looking for if he's gone until the start of the playoffs, which would give Mark Bergerman some salary cap flexibility if he wanted to make an ad before the end of the trade deadline Monday? Yeah, that's a super smart question because it's something I think that, you know, that is now

dancing in the heads of Mark Bergerman and the rest of his front office stuff. And it's funny because, well, not funny, I have to stop using that word. I was tackling this on TSN last night on Gino Reda. That's hockey because, you know, that's the big story of Montreal, the last couple of days. Well, that and Kerry Price isn't blank tonight in Toronto. Right. But when I interviewed Bergerman at the start of the weekend, last weekend,

I was sort of pestering him about, well, what are you going to do when you're, you know, you've got all these bodies? What are you going to do when you're healthy because the cap didn't add up, right? They were so tight to the cap, and I was curious I was going to handle that. And in Lou Lamarillo fashion, and Berzman said, I've learned not to have to make decisions until I have to make decisions. Who says that we're ever going to be totally healthy? And bang.

And now, again, I don't think Mark Bergeman wishes he would have been proven that prophetic. But there you go. Gallagher goes down right after Tafoli comes back and Armia is still on the COVID list. So, you know, they'll get Armea back soon. But they're not totally healthy. They're arguably their number one winger, their heart and soul player, Brendan Gallagher is out. now they still as we tape this don't have a complete clear picture of what is the prognosis is so

i think by friday they should have that and that'll be huge as as our reader just asked like i pointed out you know if he's out five weeks that's the end of the regular season and now he's off your cap but if he's out three weeks you have to basically hold his salary live on your cap simplifying it but so there's a big difference between three to five three to five or five or five or five plus and so on and so on. Now, here's the thing. I don't know that if he's out until the playoffs, I don't know if this suddenly presents a huge opportunity

from which y'all, as much as takes away some pressure to what they were actually going to do. In that interview with Burschevind, and I pushed him a little, he admitted that in a perfect world, he was going to try and create some cap space because they're right at the cap.

So I took that to mean that he was probably going to trade a forward before Monday's deadline. Now, if Gallagher's out to the playoffs, that could help absorb that cap pressure, I guess is what I'm saying. It doesn't mean that you can't go out and maybe get a defenseman at a cheaper cost. Maybe that would make sense for them to get a little more insurance on the back end. You know, in the event of, you know, Ben Chorot's coming back at some point here,

but in the event of another injury that you got a little more depth there, I wouldn't be surprised if maybe a deft move happens before Monday. But the point being, you're not going out in. try to get a top six four even if Gallagher is out to the playoffs in my mind. They got lots of depth up front. Right, yeah, no, and I agree. And I think you have to be careful about something like that, even if you did have the wherewithal to make another, you know,

sort of top nine move, let's call it that, because you've got Eric Stahl. You want to make sure that he's finding his way with a new team. Of course, a pretty good night for him, overtime winner. Well, like Michael FroLeaks only played two games this year from the taxi squad. He's an established veteran who can slide into your fourth line any night. Cole Coughfield at some point might get the call-up, depending on how things go in the H.L. So they really don't need to trade for a Ford, even if Gallagher is out to the playoffs.

And again, we don't know that he will be. We'll know by the end of the week, I guess, when the Habs announced that. Good. Okay, let's finish up with Michigan Man. How many trades will Steve Eiserman make between now and next Monday's trade deadline? And that's, you know, I'm fascinated by the Red Wings because they, you mentioned, you know, the kind of depth ad that might be attractive to the Canadians and to a number of teams that are looking.

And to me, the Red Wings have a bunch of players that sort of fit that kind of more. They don't have a Taylor Hall. They don't have a Kyle Palmieri. But, you know, you got a Bobby Ryan on an expiring contract. The guy I'm really curious about Luke Glendening, terrific on face off. Really good, depth guy. Again, you know, cheap on a, he's going to be a UFA. And what about, you know, what about Patrick Nemeth?

I'm a little bit soft. I love Patrick Nemeth. I thought he, you know, I got to know him a little bit in Dallas and then he moved the year I was there, moved to Colorado. They picked him up on waivers. And he was outstanding for a Navs team that snuck into the playoffs and gave Nashville all they could handle. And he's also going to be a UFA.

So I think there's lots of little pieces in Detroit that my guess is Steve Weizerman. and would like to do some asset management with these expiring contracts. And I think they're useful players that could fit a nice niche role on a lot of teams. Yeah, so the two action names for me, you mentioned Lupalendet. I think he moves for sure. He's that type of guy this time of year where can boast of your bottom six. And my colleague, Frank Saravale at TSN, has repeatedly mentioned Edmonton as a possibility. And I know myself and my own reporting that that's the type of player.

Ken Holland is hoping to add for Monday in a soft deal is that. bottom six guy for the Oilers. The Oilers can't do a whole lot this year. They traded away a lot of picks last year. The deadline is you remember, Scottie, and really only have a fourth round pick to move, I think, from this year's draft anyway, to get something done. So they've got to be a little more careful this time adding. But Glenn Denning to Edmonton or a player like Glenn Denning to Edmonton would make sense for Emmington. But either way, I think Glenn Denning moves his 1-8 cap hit is pretty low and he plays center and wing and kills penalties. wins face-offs. You know, Jonathan Bernie, we mentioned him earlier, but I think he can help a team. Now, he's still an IR as we tape this, but I think he's on the men. So that'll be important to figure out his health and to have other teams figure out his health before Monday's deadline. And then after that, I think there are no guarantees. I mean, you mentioned a lot of players, but, you know, more and more, the last few years,

one thing we've noticed, right, Scotty, is that some pending UFA don't get moved. There just isn't enough demand, and the cap is tight. And it's like, you know what? I know it's only a six-round pick, but maybe I want that six-round pick instead of giving it to a guy who may only play four games for me. So there's no guarantee that all is UFA's move at all. You know, Mark Stahl is there, but it's a big cap number, you know, and I don't sense a huge market for him at this point. Interesting. It's going to be fun.

I'm curious to see, though, and your point is a good one, where we've seen in the past at the trade deadline, that GMs are anxious or hopeful of bringing on players who have term so that they're not just getting the rental. But with the flat cap and all that we've, the economics, I wonder if we will see maybe a little bit more openness to take those expiring contracts because they know they don't have to deal with them moving forward. Plus, with the expansion draft, you know, adding players with term creates another headache for lots of GMs. That's a great point. Yeah, so anyway. The rentals are almost back in again after a few years. of teams acquiring guys with a year and a half, right?

So it's sort of like almost a retro year this year that rentals are actually more at a premium because of Seattle. I'm all about the retro, my friend. All right, we are going to wrap things up here. What else should you be paying attention? It's like crossover week. Ian Mendez from the Athletic Hockey Show.

He goes to the full 60 with Craig Custin's this week at the athletic. And it's like another kind of, it's not crossover, but kind of, because Hockey Night in Canada's Elliot Friedman joins Jonas Siegel and James Myrtle this week on The Leaf Report with all the trade deadline talk at The Athletic. You should check out our comments section for each podcast episode at The Athletic app

and rate and subscribe to The Athletic Hockey Show on Apple. If you aren't already a subscriber, go to Theathletic.com slash hockey show and receive a subscription for just, wait for it, $3.99 per month. But you can't beat that. Here's to having a good trade deadline show for you, my friend, and I'm sure we'll be chatting. And when we reconvene next week, we'll sort through all that has transpired.

Good work by you, as always. Yeah, look forward to it. Jim Rutherford and Kevin Weeks coming on to Trade Center with us. Nice. It should be awesome. Right on, right on, right on.