The Athletic Hockey Show - Jonathan Bates, former Vancouver Canucks college scout, joins the show, breaking down Corey’s “NHL prospects I was wrong about” piece, international prospect tournaments recap, and more

Episode Date: November 19, 2021

First, Max and Corey are joined by former Vancouver Canucks college free agent scout, and cohost of The Elev802 Podcast, Jonathan Bates, to discuss the value of college free agent scouting within an organization, how his job differed from the work of the pro and amateur scouts, big wins recruiting the likes of Troy Stecher and Chris Tanev, ones that got away, like Tyler Bozak, Kevan Miller, and Neal Pionk, and much more.Then, Corey talks about some recent international prospect tournaments and gives his thoughts on the players that stood out, and the guys break down some of the players included in Corey’s annual “NHL prospects I was wrong about” piece, including Alex Turcotte, Shane Pinto, Moritz Seider, and Jonathan Dahlen.Plus, the guys quickly highlight the play of Columbus Blue Jackets rookie center Cole Sillinger, and discuss the arrival of St. Louis Blues defensive prospect Scott Perunovich.And, don’t forget, you can sign up for an annual subscription to The Athletic for just $3.99 a month when you visit http://theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey everybody, Max Pullman here, alongside Corey Promin, back for another episode of the Athletic Hockey Show, Prospect Series. Got a really fun show on tap today. Corey's been watching some international tournaments that we're going to talk about. We're going to get to that. He's going to talk about the prospects he was wrong about, one of my personal favorite of Corey's annual stories. But first, we are joined by former Vancouver Canucks Scout Jonathan Bates of L of 8-02. Jonathan, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me, guys.

How are we doing? Doing really well. Yeah, doing well. Thank you so much for joining us, John. Yeah, my pleasure. My pleasure. It's great to be here. I enjoy the show. You guys do a great job. So for those who don't know, for the last while, Jonathan has been doing what I think is one of the more interesting scouting jobs in the industry. And that's specifically focusing on college free agents. This is a group of players that I think have produced some fun players. And I think always generates a lot of excitement in the spring. But I think it's got to be one of the more kind of unique scouting assignments because you're oftentimes getting guys who have been passed over in the draft. and now you're trying to find the players who maybe shouldn't have been or in time have proven that they can still contribute at the NHL level.

I'm curious kind of how did that become your wheelhouse, Jonathan? Timings everything in life, right? I graduated from the University of Vermont 2008, started working for Vancouver when Mike Gillis was hired. And he wanted to add some youth to the organization. He saw a need specifically in the college free agent market. So he paired me with Stan's Meal. Canuck legend, obviously terrific role model, terrific friend, and away we went. But really the benefit for Mike in the organization at the time was I was a young guy, right?

So I had an understanding of what makes a 20, 21, 22 year old tick because I was 23, 24 at the time when I started the college free agent process. So I think that's really kind of how I found my niche. and and you know 13 years later I was basically made my my first you know third of my career in that field and it was great terrific experience with with a lot of fun stops along the way you mentioned how like you connected with some of these players and I think that's something that's interesting I hear when I talk to NHL scouts around the industry about that field is it's not just a scouting job is like well you have to interview players mean you've for the amateur draft, you know, there are certain guys in the college free agency realm,

like when a top guy, like I said, DeKaiser rolls around that every single team's going to be on. And a huge part of it comes down to relationships and recruitment. You know, what was your experience dealing with that aspect of the job, you know, compared to some of your, say, your colleagues on the Vancouver scouting stuff? Yeah, well, I'm laughing, Corey, because you bring up Danny to Kaiser and it triggers a really funny story actually, specifically when it relates to us trying to sign him. I went to see him play at Western Michigan in Kalamazoo,

and I can't remember who they were playing. But, you know, I show up to the game. I was an hour before. I like to get to the arena roughly 45 minutes an hour before. Just before warmness, get my lines, you know, don't feel rush, that kind of thing. And I show up in the game. The game isn't scheduled to start until 8 o'clock. Like, oh, geez, I thought it was, you know, I just assumed it was 7.

So, of course, it was 8, whatever. Watch the game. I've got a meeting set up with the kid afterwards with Danny. And, you know, watch the game, obviously, terrific game, whatever. Ends at 10.30. I go down and in the hallway waiting to talk to him was Steve Eiserman, Mike Babcock, Tom Kervers. Chris Chelyos, Chris Draper, I believe.

It was just a, oh, MacTee, Greg McTavish, and Kevin Lowe. It was just a who's who of the hockey world. And then me, right? Like me. All these big, big time NHL legends. And then, you know, this little scrub that Vancouver sent to watch the game. So obviously, like, you know, guess who's going first? It ain't Jonathan Bates to go talk to the kid, you know?

So they all go in one at a time, whatever, and have their meetings. I don't get out of there until like past midnight after finally meeting them. And I have to drive back to Kalamazoo, or excuse me, from Kalamazoo back to the airport in Detroit, which, you know, with no traffic and on a clear sunny day, it's a two-hour drive. Well, of course, this was, you know, January, February, and there's a massive snowstorm. It took me about five and a half hours to get back to Romulus where the Detroit airport was. Um, thankfully I made it no issues, but it was, it was a scary drive. It was a terrifying drive and, um, got back. I had like a 730 flight back to Boston. I literally grabbed my stuff. I actually took a quick shower just to kind of wake up a little bit, grab my stuff and went right to the airport. But yeah, it was one of those stories where, um, you know, that you just kind of talking with you, Corey just triggered. But, um, how do I relate to kids? Like, it's a sales game. I mean, kids have options when they become. Um, you know, um, you know, that you just kind of talking with. college-free agents if they're good enough, you know. And that's their right, you know,

30, well, now 32 teams with the addition of Seattle have the opportunity to draft seven players over a three-year period. So if they get passed over, it's on the team, you know, so that is the player's right to figure out who they want to sign or where they want to sign and where they want to, you know, give their career a shot at. So Danny was no different. He obviously made a terrific choice in Detroit. and he's had a great career ever since. I've heard, like, stories of, like, guys having, like, being really aggressive in the recruiting process, like, having to, like, meeting, you know, meeting guys that they are really hoping to sign, you know, several times,

maybe even over a dozen times in a given season, you know, were there any guys like that who, over the time that you had to, you developed a very lengthy relationships with, whether it's in one or multiple seasons, Like a guy like, I know, I say, with Bobby Trevino this season to UMass, he didn't go free agent last season. So now he was a free agent again this season. I'm sure people have been talking to him for long periods of time where there are any examples like that that you can recall. Yeah, there are a lot. One is I wasn't too involved in it because it was still early in my tenure. But Stan's Meal became very close with Tyler Bozac when we were trying to sign him out of Denver.

you know, and he had a bad, I think it was shoulder. I think he had a nasty shoulder separation that limited his ability to play his sophomore year. And we were prepared to pay for his surgery. Hey, sign with us today. And we'll send you to the best doctors and we'll get your shoulder all cleaned up, that kind of thing. You know, so that stuff.

Yeah, teams will get aggressive. If they see a need or a fit for a college free agent, they're going to do anything and everything they can to separate themselves. You know, there are a lot of players like that where I spent two, three, four years developing relationships with and they chose other teams. Harry's owner check was a kid at Brown, ended up signing as a college free agent out of out of Brown to Philly. And I got to know him pretty well for two reasons.

One, I was seeing Brown a lot the previous years because we signed Aaron Volpatti as a college free agent the year prior. and then we wanted to sign Harry afterwards. We saw a fit for him. His energy is his high compete level, the way he stood in front of the net, took a beating, and did anything and everything he could

to be a difference maker. That's the type of player that shows character night in and night out. And obviously, you know, he had a lengthy professional career as well. How early does that kind of process start for these college guys? I mean, obviously teams kind of have their development camps that you can give a kid an invite to.

And I imagine there's an element of recruitment in that. But like, you know, when are you first touching base with a kid? When do you feel like you've kind of identified your targets? Because some of these guys are there for four years. It's a great question. And that's the kids right, you know? Like, I went to college and it was the best four years of my life, you know, that age old saying. It was, I went to the University of Vermont.

And I wouldn't trade a minute of it for the world. It was great. I learned a lot in the both obviously in the classroom and about myself from maturity standpoint. With that said, you know, you want to be aggressive because you got a job to do. You know, as a scout, your objective is to find players that make your organization better. And that's what I try to do every day. You know, when do you start kind of developing that relationship from day one that you see something in a player, right? When I would evaluate college free agents, there's always one question I always ask myself.

What is the player's one NHL skill? You watch a kid play and he has to have from minute one, he has to have one NHL skill, whether it's speed, whether it's strength on the puck, whether it's skill, whether it's shot, like, what is his one skill? And how good is he at that? And then you evaluate the other components to his game. So once you kind of identify that skill, then you start watching how he's going to develop over, you know, the next two, three, four years, sometimes less, sometimes more. There are players that signed too early. They're players that maybe overcook at the NCAA level from a free agent standpoint. One player that kind of comes to mind that, you know, was ready before he signed, actually two.

But one in particular is Matt Reed out of Bimiji State. You know, he could have signed, in my opinion, after the Frozen Four in 2009, he was ready to make a difference. And he went back to Bimigi for two more years. And again, that was his right. He saw other things in his game that he wanted to improve upon. You mentioned the one attribute part about a guy standing out. When I've kind of watched college free agents over the years and talking to other scouts who have watched college free agents, you know, with due respect, there's usually a reason they get passed over in multiple drafts.

You know, if you're a premium athlete, you know, a 6-2 guy who could skate and you have some, you have technical skill and you're competitive, of the chances that that guy goes undrafted is so slim. So when you get a guy like a DeKaiser who's big and he can skate and, you know, that's what gets everybody kind of crazy. So is it in your experience that you're usually working with guys who have skating flaws or small and maybe not like overly dynamic and you're trying to find the one guy of those, that bundle of guys who kind of look the same that you think will actually help your organization? Yeah, you know, it's a tough question to answer quite honestly, Corey. It's a great question. It's just a difficult one to answer because I think it's very position specific, you know. If you have a defenseman that isn't a very good skater and that's what he needs to work on, I don't, like I'm not going to look too closely at him. Obviously, you want to watch his ability to think the game, his ability to make a first pass, defend. But the way the NHL is today, you know,

name me one team that has, you know, three, four, even really one bad skating defensemen. There aren't many, at least not many competitive ones. So you've got to be able to skate. But, you know, if you're a center iceman and you think the game at a high level, but maybe your first few steps in terms of quickness and agility aren't great, I'm going to look twice at you for sure. But again, it all depends on the position, in my opinion. I think that kind of leads in really well to talking about one of the guys you've signed, and that's Troy Stetcher, who's a guy who, from the Vancouver area. I imagine that probably helped your case. But when you talk about kind of the traits, I mean, he was a guy in college, especially early in college, undersized, and he wasn't a dynamic producing defense in those first couple years. I think that kind of came more in his third year. What did you see in Troy Stetcher? And what was that process of getting him signed like? Was it, I mean, how much did you lean on the hometown aspect to get him?

Yeah, I mean, well, it's crucial. He came to our development camp after his first year at North Dakota, and it made sense, right? He's from Richmond and British Columbia. Local kid, easy to get in and out. And, you know, his father, I believe, had a small season ticket package. I can't really remember how many or if it was through his work, but he grew up going to a fair amount of games. So it was a no-brainer on our part, despite the fact that he only had 10, I think it was 10 or 11 points in his first year at North Carolina. Dakota. But obviously playing in Penticton in the BCHL, we knew enough about his kind of resume. And we kind of took it from there. So, you know, we met him. We wanted to learn a little bit more about him as a person, what made him tick. And the first time I really had a good old-fashioned sit down with Troy. It was pretty obvious that he was driven. You know, he had that it factor. The way he carried himself, his professionalism, and the tone of his voice, I want to be an NHL player. Tell me what to do. He had this authoritative tone to his voice that really stuck with me. And I remember looking at Stan after, you know, we chatted with him. And steamers like, I don't give a shit about his

size. He's going to figure out a way to make it. And we always, Stan always used to joke too because, you know, he was, he played in the 80s at that five foot eight, you know, and was a bull and in a China shop. So he has a little bit of a solid spot for those, you know, smaller guys in terms of size. But anyways, I digress. It's, it's one of those things that, you know, watching him play and develop in the next two years, how he carried himself. Stan, Ryan Johnson, and I saw him at the start of his junior year in a couple of games, actually my alma mater, UVM. And, you know, we said hello to him after the game. We also had obviously Brock Besser, who was our first round pick at that time. So it just kind of made sense. It was easy for us to continue to build a relationship over a two-plus year

period. And then, you know, for them to accomplish their goal as a team under Brad Barry's leadership at Nodak of winning a national title, you know, he had that winning pedigree and that attitude that we were looking for. So we were fortunate enough that he decided to come home and choose us. But I'd be lying if I said there were a couple of nights in there where I was wondering if we actually were going to get them or not, you know, because if you don't get them, it's a lot of work that in time and effort that, you know, is all for not. But that's the nature of the business. One question I had in terms of like the role of the Coltrue agent scout is how you feel like that position fits into an organization compared to the amateur staff and the pro

staff. So I feel like it's a position that the average fan doesn't know a lot about. Obviously, the amateur draft gets the whole weekend on TV every summer. And pro scouts may not get the same line light, but they still have the trade deadline of free agent frenzy where their impact is more prominent, bringing in major assets to an organization.

How would you describe the role and the value of a college free agent scout, whether it's the ability to bring in players that you don't have to use, half capital on or get or something along those lines. I always call it the the island job, right? You're kind of on an island. You're not quite a pro scout.

You're not quite an amateur scout. You're sort of, you know, tucked in between both. But I loved it. And Mike Gillis, who, you know, former general manager of Vancouver Canucks, he had a great philosophy. He's like, hey, you know, we trust your abilities. You go out. You find these players.

You know, we need you to. to be successful in this role. Because at the time, you know, we were chasing Lord Stanley's Cup, the Holy Grail. And we needed to use those draft, that draft capital, those assets to be competitive at the trade deadline, not necessarily to utilize and actually trade away the picks. But it was important for us to recognize that we had those assets in place. And he needed, as well as the rest of the management team, to know that there were a couple of guys that we could, we could. could potentially sign in college free agency to sort of alleviate some of the stress that comes around, you know, with those higher-end draft picks.

So from a philosophical standpoint, it was great working for Mike in that regard because he really trusted Stan, he trusted me, and our abilities to go out, build relationships, and find quality players to make the team competitive. And the one guy that comes to mind, really, that you guys did when you guys were, you know, when Vancouver was really competitive. was bringing in Chris Tannaf, who has to be one of the most successful college free agent signings of the last 10, 15 years. You have a guy who must be coming up on 600-something NHL gains.

It would be comparable to like a top 15, top 20 NHL draft pick. I mean, that guy's a perfect example of, you know, almost kind of giving you a first round pick almost in errors in times where you were losing draft capital. Well, and that's why we were able to go to the draft in L.A. in 2010. and, you know, feel a little bit relatively more comfortable making that deal for Keith Ballard. We moved the 25th overall pick, I believe, we had in that deal because a few weeks earlier we had signed Chris and we knew what we had. You know, the TANF signing was terrific, but, you know, it was a collaborative effort. We don't sign him if we, if Dave Gagne doesn't have the relationship that he did with him from a young age.

we don't sign him if Stan doesn't get on a plane and go see him play. And we don't sign him if we don't learn a little bit more about him and his growth spurt that hit later in life and the things that he was doing to become a hockey player, strengthen up his upper body and go to work, so to speak. He was committed. Obviously, it's worked out. And he's a terrific player that's made a hell of a career for himself. I've got a couple for you on kind of the nuts and bolts of how that kind of plays out. When you're in them in these meetings with kids and you're trying to sell them on Vancouver, do they ever kind of say like, well, look, if you like me, why didn't you draft me or that kind of thing? Oh, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

And that's when I throw Judd Brackett right under the bus, you know, for me now. No. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, they do. You know, and quite candidly, like that's a fair question to act. ask. If you like me enough, why didn't you draft me? And that's one that a lot of agents and advisors always, hey, if you like the kid that much, like, why the hell didn't you use your seventh round pick on him a few months ago? You know, it's a fair question. It's an honest question.

And the reality is, is you can't draft everybody, you know. And that's kind of where, you know, being on the island comes into play a little bit that I was alluding to earlier. You need to have a really strong relationship. As a college free agent scout, you need to have a really strong relationship with your director of amateur scouting. And when I, and Judd Brackett and I, when he was in Vancouver, we still have a great relationship, but we had a really great working relationship, along with a lot of others, you know, in the organization. But Judd and Dan Palango are two guys that, you know, we would meet and speak regularly on guys that maybe were passed over and have potential to take another step. Well, and then, you know, I guess this follows that

is kind of when when you're in that process you mentioned this I think a little bit with stetcher that the drive that that you guys saw in him I mean how much is what they want to know about you kind of something that's maybe a different even department in terms of player development like if I think if I'm a kid that's really driven that's probably one of the first things I need to know is you know what's your track record of getting guys like me into the NHL and am I going to get a look over guys who you might have drafted even ahead of me so the the first relationship you have to be that has to be really strong is with your director of amateur scouting, like I just alluded to. The second one is with your director of player development. You need that individual or team to recognize

and be assertive in how they want to approach a player. They need to be receptive to the things that you're saying and where you see this kid, not just today, but where he was yesterday and where he's going tomorrow. You know, Ryan Johnson, he's the general manager in Utica and director for player development and Stan Smil was also in that role as well. And the three of us spoke regularly throughout the year on players, you know, hey, here's where he is now. This is where I think he can be. You need to come see him and give me your, you know, your two cents.

You know, a lot of the times we agreed, a lot of times we didn't. And that's the fun part of the job, right? But if you don't have that relationship internally or those relationships internally, you're not going to be successful in the college. free agent market, in my opinion. You mentioned the relationship you had with your amateur staff, and I think that's one interesting things about being a college-specific scout. I know we did some pro-scouting, too, but your focus was on the college is that it's such

a large amount of teams, may not as large as like college football, but it's a large amount of teams. They all play at the exact same time. They're not all centrally located in the same region. So how do you in a, and the college season is not like very long. You have, I think, a very short window to identify and to start. start recruiting at almost. You know, how did you manage that?

How do you, how do you, how do you, how do you, how do you zero in on the guys that you know you, you're going to try to recruit, you know, is it, do you lean on video to kind of plug the gaps during the weekdays? Because there's only, you only see games usually on Fridays and Saturdays. You know, how would that process go for you? Yeah. You got to get really close with your local florist to send flowers to your wife quite regularly. Because at the drop of a hat, you could be going anywhere.

No, it's an important question. I had the luxury of living in Boston, right? And in Boston, you know, they play a lot of midweek games. You know, Harvard will drive two miles across town to play northeastern on a Tuesday. So that's that day. Right, exactly. So that was a luxury that I had from a travel perspective. But, you know, every August when all 60 schedules would be released, it's a giant jigsaw puzzle. And that team credit card bill gets a good workout in that month. because you're booking flights, you're booking rental cars, your booking hotels to go, you know, flying to Minnesota, hop down and see Mancato on a Friday night and then shoot up to Duluth on Saturday and see, you know, whoever's visiting there. From a more detailed perspective, you have, you have your shortlist going into the season of guys that you want to focus on and watch from a close, close eye early on and get into sea. But your list is going to change over the course of a year. You know, I always tried to delegate a little bit, you know, some of the amateur guys that maybe were seeing, seeing a team that didn't really have anybody of note. Hey, keep an eye on a few guys there. If anybody jumps out, let me know.

Otherwise, I'm just going to cross them off the list. I don't need to worry about seeing them. And, again, that's important to the relationship between the amateur and the college free agency. staff. Do you have a one that got away in that time, like a one that's like, I always wished, you know, I'm sure there's a ton that did get away, but is there one that like, you never got over. Like 13 years later, you're still like, I still think we should have had that. You know, I, there are a lot. There are a lot of players. I, Tyler Bozac would have been a hell of a hockey player for Vancouver. I really would have loved to bring him on. But there

are two that come to mind. One is, one is Kevin Miller. who was a friend of mine at the University of Vermont. He was a few years behind me. That's a tough one then. Well, it's a tough one, but we also had a development camp in 2010. We had like, who's who of development camp that year. We had like Millsy, we had Taylor Fadoon, we had Josh Juris, we had Keith Kincaid, Matt Frazier, I think, was there.

We had a bunch of players that all went on to play. But Millsy particularly because I knew what made him tick, right? Like I knew him as a person. And we just didn't have the contracts at the time. You know, we didn't have the ability to sign him. And then he went to, he took an invite. He took a PTA or ATO in Boston and, you know, the rest is history. But couldn't be more proud of his ability to make a hell of a career for himself.

So that's one. And then two, Neil Pionk was a defenseman that I really, really would have loved to have. And that one just pissed me off because for all intents and purposes, we were told he was going back to school. And then all of a sudden, you know, he inks with the Rangers at like a random time in the summer. And I'm like, what the fuck? Like, what is this? Excuse my language.

I'm just like, what is this, you know? But that one, that one strikes a little bit. So those tree guys kind of come to mind. But, you know, like I said, you can't win them. all. Has Pionk exceed your expectations, even though you liked him as a college for age? Because, I mean, he's been a hell of a hockey player right now. Has he exceeded my expectations? Yeah, probably. And the reason why I say probably is because you're seeing him in a lot of tough

matchups, right? He's relied to match up against some heavy, heavy hitters in that central division on a nightly basis. And even when he was in New York, You know, he was he was asked to do a lot. So, yeah, I think his ability to match up, close gaps, play tight in one-on-one coverage, roll against power, roll against speed. I mean, he's a hell of a hockey player. So I think, yeah, I guess you could say he's exceed my expectations, yeah. On that topic, are there a couple of college free agents then over the years that you come to mind

that, you know, were much better or not as good in the NHL as you thought they'd be. Yeah. You know, a couple guys come to mind that I didn't really think twice about. One is actually Luke Lendening. Kudos to that kid. Hell of a career he's had, you know, obviously I saw him at Michigan. And I correct, you guys were no better than me, but I don't think he ever had more than 20 points, 25 points at most. You know, he wasn't a real graceful skater.

He was playing in all, you know, tough, excuse me, all sorts of tough matchups. But he came from New England prep school, went to Michigan, obviously, you know, competed hard, found a role, made the most of his opportunity, you know, goes into Grand Rapins really is, you know, just kind of a local tryout on an ATO. And next thing you know, he's matching up against anybody under the sun. in the Calder Cup playoffs. So he's really had a hell of a career. I tip my cap to that kid because I didn't think much of them at Michigan, quite candidly. You were right.

21 points, I think, was as high. Was that it was? 21. Yeah. And that was in like 40-some games. I don't even think, I don't even have half a point per game. Yeah, half a point per game was his senior year, 21 and 41. Before that, 21 and 45.

I saw them play. It must have been his senior year. I think it was his senior year. play early in the year against like Mercyhurst or something. And he had a good game, but I certainly didn't walk out of the rink, you know, scream in NHL contract for that kid. But like I said, hell of a career. And he's made the most of his opportunity.

So, yeah, I tip my cap to him for sure. Player prediction is not easy. I mean, I would have, you know, if I was watching, you know, Walker Dewar last season, I wouldn't have thought he'd be an NHL call up. this season. But I didn't think, you know, watching that team, he was a top three, four player on his team. But sometimes that happens. We get one's wrong.

Yeah, I mean, hindsight's 2020, right? And it's a subjective job. You know, Corey, you might have seen that kid against, you know, the best team in the league. And he might have been dashed two and they lost the game five nothing. But, you know, maybe I saw him against the worst team in the league. He had, you know, two goals and was plus three. and had the game of his life, those things happen. And that's where communication is so important amongst your staff members.

It's a subjective job that everyone expects an objective result. You know, it's that simple. Jonathan, I know we're running a little tight on time here, but can you tell us a little bit about what you're doing now with the Elevato 2 podcast and you and Tori Mitchell, Brian Strait, Brady Farcass and what you guys have going on over there? Yeah, yeah, no, I appreciate you asking. We're having a lot of fun. Tori Mitchell, a former NHL player, he and another one of our friends, Peter Lennis, the three of us went to college together. But Pete and Mitch started Elevado 2, which is a small ice facility in Essex, Vermont, where they do one-on-one skill development and training for young kids, boys and girls alike. And they started this really just with a passion of giving back to the game of hockey. And fast forward a few years and they're growing like a weed.

They've got franchises, people buying in all over the country, which is terrific. So Mitch and I go back to our UVM days, one of my very good friends from college. And he and I were kind of chatting one day about, you know, our experiences, mine from, you know, hockey operation standpoint and his as a player. And we decided to kind of put this podcast together called the Elevado 2 podcast. where we share our experiences, kind of life and hockey operations, his from a player's perspective, mine from a scouting perspective. And then Brian Strait, former Islander defenseman and U.S. national team product, as well as national champion at BU, which he likes to remind us up.

But we brought in straight or two. No, we brought in straighter too because he's a nice blend between the two, right? He had a great career from a player's perspective, and now he's scouting for New Jersey. so he's a good blend. So we're having fun with it. We're just kind of sharing a little bit more about experience, what kind of goes on behind the scenes in the war room and looking to grow. So, yeah, Elevato 2, E-L-E-V-802.com and Elevato 2, the podcast can be found anywhere you get your podcasts or our YouTube channel.

Fantastic. Well, Jonathan, thanks so much for joining us. It was great to have you here and great to hear a lot of really good stories and insights from a long career in the NHL. So make sure you check out his work at the, L-V-8-O-2 podcast. I wish you guys all the best. Thank you very much for having me. And Max, don't worry about showing up later, right, buddy?

Hey, the listeners didn't know about that. The listeners didn't know. Fashionably late. Fashionably late. Thanks again, guys. All right, thanks again to Jonathan Bates from the Elevate O-2 podcast, which is E-L-E-V-802 podcast for joining us on the show today. I thought that was a really fun conversation.

I actually learned a ton about kind of the ins and outs of that job. So hopefully everybody out there feels like they got a lot out of it too. Corey, we're going to get to your who I got wrong about list in a second here, which as I said is one of my favorite articles that we force you to do each year. But I know you've been watching quite a few tournaments lately. I think there are three reasons. The U20 had a four nations. The U-18 had a five nations.

Then there's the senior tournament, the Karjala Cup, which usually has at least some relevant junior players at it. What was the standouts from your observations at, you know, watching those tournaments lately. Yeah, sure thing. And also just kind of echo your thoughts. I really appreciate the conversation with Jonathan. And I kind of always tell people, I gain so much from talking to NHL scouts and executives on an insight level. I think it's easy for me, people like me to sit here and kind of espouse my own opinions. But the people with the real life experiences of going through these things who have done it

professionally, those are the people who have helped cultivated my skill set, the way I present myself, the way I do my work. And you kind of see to talk to someone like Jonathan, the wealth of knowledge and the perspective that he has. But touching on the international tournaments, last week was the international tournament break. We now have a real international schedule, unlike the last two seasons where we're going to have breaks in November, February, and April for various international tournaments. And for the NHL draft, at least this year's NHL draft, because there was a U-17 event that USA have won.

The three that came to mind where, like he said, the U-18's 20 and the senior level, the U-18 tournament was all about Team USA. That was the NTP-O-4's first official tournament as an age group collectively, and they were dominant. There was never really a game where, I think. thought they were in danger of losing it. Just the team as a whole, I thought was really rolling. The top guys, like Logan Cooley, Isaac Howard, Frank Nazar, they all played very well.

And the U.S. secondary guys like Lane Hudson, like Cole Spicer, like Seamus Casey, that did really well. Gavin Brindley came in from the USAJL. held his own, Jimmy Snugglerud played well. Just as a whole, I thought that NTP group showed there's a lot of top two, top three, top four round prospect on that team to go with several first round prospects. Not everybody played well. I didn't think Ryan Chesley had his best tournament.

You talked to people around the league. If he was considered a first round lock, he might be like a bubble first rounder right now coming out of that event. And there were some other guys on the other teams. I expected Eli Salinson from Sweden to like stand out. at that level and he was good, he wasn't amazing. Kind of other guy, I think, if he was a first round lock for you going game, he might be bubble first, high two right now.

So those are the main takeaways for me from that event. Snuggaroid is one guy who really quick, I just wanted to follow up on because I think he had a hat trick in one of these games. He's a guy who's off to a really strong start overall for the NTP in the U18s this season. Is there a change that's been made in his game or is this just kind of part of the natural progression of the 17 to 18? I think he's still not a good skater, but talking to Scouts around the league,

they have noticed there have been some improvements in his skating from a year or two ago that helped him elevate. He's very skilled, very intelligence, good size, really good shot. Yeah, he had two very strong games on the four that he played. And, yeah, I think he's a guy who looks, I don't know if he's a first rounder, but I think he could be a second round pick. I wouldn't blink if that happened to him. The guys who I thought really stood out on that team were Isaac Howard and Frank Dazar who played on a line together.

Because I don't think their U.S.HL games have been all that impressive to start. So seeing them go to that level and just like consistent standouts versus their age group, I thought it was very notable and helped their first round arguments. For sure. Sorry, I cut you off there as you were getting ready to transition into the U20 and the Karjala. No, no, that's fine. This is meant to be a discussion of the U24 Nations, which features some drafted players and also some premium draft eligibles. On the drafted front, he only played in two to three games, but Detroit Simon Evanston, I thought was very good in the two games he played. He showed really good skill.

He was physical, played with not an amazing pace, but decent pace. they didn't play him in all three games just because I think they said because he was recently injured they wanted to rest him for the third game there was no issues there in that regard. This Sweden

World Junior team is not going to be amazing outside of him and William Eklund presuming that Lucas Raymond obviously is talking to get low given that Detroit is kind of leaning on him a little bit right now and Alex Holtz is up with the Devils. So if they're going to have a chance

to medal, Evanson is going to need to be the best offenseman in the tournament and we'll see whether that comes to pass. Yesper Walsh did the Minnesota goalie prospect. I thought it was just okay. I didn't think he had his best tournament there for Sweden. But he's had an up to a really strong start, so I still think he's a great prospect.

Emil Andre, the Philly prospect, was named the defenseman of the tournament, very skilled and competitive small defensemen, not an amazing skater, but good enough. I think he's a good prospect, having a pretty strong season versus men right now. So that was notable. You will remember from watching the World Junior Summer Showcase that that line of Atu-Ratu,

Ronnie Hervonan, and Casper Simon Taval was very good there. For sure. And Seimant Tavallel wasn't there this time. They rotated a Brad Lambert and Kelly Facedon on that line. But Hervon and Ratu were, again, among the better players versus their age group. And for Finland to medal, they're going to need to kill it at the World Juniors. And at least from the two times they've played together this year, those two have been impressive players,

which I think is good. I think Toronto and Highlanders fans will be happy to hear. Lambert has had a tough first half so far this season. I actually thought he had some good flashes there. I think he's been scoring a little bit more in League of late, so a little bit more some positive signs from him on that front. And then the last team we wouldn't talk about

because the Czechs didn't really have anything there from a draft perspective. Eury Kulich was okay. I thought would be for Russia, where it had two premium draft deltables on that team, and Ivan Mirov and Mirov Mera Sancho started off. On the first line, giving a letter. I don't think letters are like all the end-all be all, but for a 17-year-old to be given that responsibility on a World Junior team,

at least a U-20-level team is notable to me when they, and it speaks to the high character I hear about him a lot from NHL scouts. He was pretty good. You're off, kept getting more ice time as the tournament went along, and he was a standout there. The Stammer Panath picked by Carolina, Alexander Paschene, was rather good there, too. So those would be the takeaways from me from that tournament. Just to hone in on Lambert really quick there. I mean, he's a guy who we've seen kind of maybe stock slide a little bit through the first half of this season.

But to go back to a name that you mentioned earlier in that kind of summary, Atu Ratu is a guy who last year, I think, maybe experienced a little bit of that too in the same league and ultimately I think in the post draft months maybe has seen himself rebound a little bit. I know they're very different styles of players, but maybe do we underappreciate the difficulty of playing in league out with, especially when we assess these guys that have this really high stock coming in? Yeah, and it's a fair argument. Rattoos didn't really play that well with Carpath when he went back also too, so it kind of looks similar to his draft year. he's since been transferred to Eulchrit in Liga where he's actually been quite good so we'll see how the rest of the season goes with that club

there's between Lambert and Ratu I think for will be that Ratu not only had production issues he had skating issues too whereas Lambert's a dynamic skater which I think will I'm not talking to many NHL scouts who say he does on our first rounder so I don't at least at this current time things can change at this turn time, I'm not expecting a drastic slide from Lambert because he's dynamic skilled, dynamic speed. Those things, well, I think we'll still make him a first rounder, even though he think he has

some flaws that the Rattu doesn't. But this has not just been a first half of this season kind of thing. I think there's been some talking to scouts, they say this is a three-year trend with Lambert where they're noticing some flaws in his game that can continue to be accentuated, mainly his competing. level perimeter play, lack of play making at times. But that being said, he has some special elements, and I still think he'll go in the first round and has a chance to be a very good NHL player. Yeah, you know, I certainly can see that especially the perimeter aspect of that is something

that when I've watched Lambert, which admittedly in person has not been very much. It's been really limited to one tournament. But has shown up. And what I guess my, if I were in a position to be evaluating him for a team, I think the thing that I would be debating in myself is like, how much am I going to worry about this now and how much am I going to look at the toolkit, the skill, the speed, and just bet almost on the fact that, you know, there's a certain point in the draft where you're not going to find guys that have traits as high level as either of those two are for him. Right.

That's why Fabian Leesel went around 20. It's why Ryan Merckley went around 20. There's going to be a certain point where a guy is too dynamic that someone's going to take a shot. It doesn't mean to say he's going to go at the 20 spot, but I'm just making it for an example purpose. And then the last term was the Karialla tournament, not as much from a young, at a team. prospect perspective. Really, you know,

the focus was on Russia in that respect who brought a very young team. You know, the story obviously was about they had a 16-year-old on that senior men's team in Montevay Michkov

who scored one goal a lacrosse style goal and had another assist on a very nice play. I'm not going to say he was amazing throughout the tournament but the 16-year-old does it do that

look like he belongs at that level. That speaks to the fact that this is a unique prospect who are we talking about for a very long time. even though he has signed for a while in the KHL. There were a couple other NHL prospects to note.

I thought the Winnipeg prospect Nikita Chibberkov was rather solid in that skating for a size not amazing, but I thought he showed a very good puck game. He competed very well, showed he could win battle versus men, even as a teenage undersized winger, which I thought was rather promising. The other Winnipeg prospect, Roshchewski, which we talked about on the podcast before, was there. I didn't think he was amazing. I thought he was okay. I thought he showed he could hold his own at that level,

which is what we kind of wanted to see. I thought that Ascarov in the one game he played, kind of struggled. It's only one game, though, for a teenage goalie at the highest, you know, at the senior level. But that was kind of an amazing showing from him on that front. And the other one that was interesting from a draft perspective was that that David Yerichek was playing for the senior check team,

not at the U-20 level. He also, I wouldn't say it was great. I thought he just steady, held his own. He was able to move the puck well enough, defended okay. Skating for that level was, you know, looked just okay, I thought. But again, you know,

first year, draft eligible player, playing versus men in a senior tournament, I think shows the fact that he's been looked overwhelmed, playing power play, played penalty kill. I thought that showed that he was, you know, a real premium prospect. And I expect to also go. he would go high in an NHL draft if it would be held next week.

Obviously, it varies by nation a lot with this, but there are pretty good prospects who, even after they've been drafted, aren't, you know, chosen for these Karjala teams. And, you know, there's a series of tournaments that the name is escaping me of that plays out throughout the year. But Channel One Cup and so on. That's correct. Yeah, exactly right. So, but there's good prospects who don't get picked for these teams throughout the year and

the year or even sometimes the two years following their drafts. So to be in there, I know it varies by country a lot. Like Sweden's always going to have a. really, you know, big team to bring to that. And maybe the check, maybe I could understand it a little more. But always impressive when a draft eligible kid is getting picked for those teams. Yep. No, I mean, yeah, I mean, it's not common.

And you have to always put all these things in context of the guy doesn't stand out. At this level, or a 17-year-old goes into the U-20 levels, it doesn't stand out. I forgot to mention, like, Jonathan Lekaramaki and Liam Obrin on Sweden, who were drafted all of those, and they played very prominent roles. Lekaramaki is a guy. I keep talking to scouts. This guy continues to rise as a guy who has pretty good speed, really good hands. And it looks like to be, along with the old Kimmel, like be the goal scoring threat of this draft class.

He has a pretty elite shot. And the fact that he's able to kind of look like he belonged to the U-20 level, it's a very young, 17-year-old thing. It's like a June of July, 04. That's not easy to do from my history of watching those events. Absolutely. All right, let's go from there into your what I, prospects I got wrong about article, which you do every year. I joke that it's my favorite article,

but I actually do think it's a really great thing that you do because I think not only is it a measure of accountability, which I think is probably what a lot of readers enjoy about it. I like the window into where you saw a prospect then and the progression that you've seen him make now. And, you know, this year's the names on them. Obviously, I hope people will go read the article, but Moritziter, David Gustafson, Jonathan Dahlin, Shane Pinto,

are some of the ones you said you were too low on. And I think, you know, the flip side of it, Alex Turcott and Dominic Bach, Patrick Puistola, some of the guys that you were too high on. And I'm not going to go through all of these here really quick. But I did want to hone in on a couple of them, the first one being Turcott, because that was a guy who, in his draft year, it was one of my first years on the beat. And covering the Red Wings, the draft is a very big part of my beat. And Turcott is a guy that I thought was pretty close to a can't miss, partly because

of his style of play and the way it blended with his skill. Why two years later, three years later, do you feel like you were too high on Turcotte at the time? Right. And I think we want to put the proper caveats on here. I don't think Turcott's not, Turcotte's going to miss. I think Turcote is going to be a very good NHL player. I predict him currently as a second line forward in the NHL, whether it's center or the wing, we'll find out. You know, he's off to a pretty strong start this here he has nine points and 12 games in the American League as we record this. But I was, you know, I adored Turk on as a draft-beligible prospect. He was fifth overall.

He was number three on my list going into that draft. I saw like a potential strong potential first-line center type of prospect, guy who had, could be a really elite two-way guy. I saw excellent feet, excellent. skills, sense. He competed so hard. His production was always just incredible. Like, there was just like, oh, it's like, this guy has everything. There's no way he's not going to become like a stud. And it doesn't mean he won't be able to a very good player. But I think realistically, as we've seen the 2019 draft progress over the last couple of years,

we've seen what's happened with Kirby Donk. We've seen what's happened with Moritz Cider. We've seen what's happening with Trevor Zegris. He wouldn't be number three right now. it would be number five. I mean, I'm not going to go that much later, but, but it's just a reality. Yep. And I think there's a couple of things with Tercut. One is the, you know, every scat I talked to like who also was high on him. I ask him, what did we miss?

One, it's he's 511. And I know people don't like it when we point to size of a prospect, but it's a variable. When you advance levels, your size is a variable. Your skating is going to be a variable. Those are the, and your compete, those are the, those are the things that prevent skilled, players from translating to higher levels. And that he was a 5-11 guy who was not like an elite, elite skill guy. Still meant he was going to be pretty good in college.

It was going to be pretty good in the pros. But it hindered him as he's advanced because he can't do the things he did versus juniors. And another thing about him that I think I just, it was always a problem in his skill set, but it's something that I just casually overlooked, maybe because he just produced so is he never really scores goals, which is alarming because he's not like this dynamic playmaker. His value is how much he creates around the net, around the high percentage areas. You know, in looking at the numbers, he had, you know, he's always has like a two to one like gold to assist ratio in the USHL and college hockey and in the American League.

it just seems to be a trend with him that he doesn't really finish at a high level, which is not ideal. And I just think there was so much around him. And as you might recall, from covering that draft, the hype on that and TDP team was unreal. And I played a part of that, you know, is a reality that I accept. And I think you kind of just from what I watched that team so much. I watched almost every game they played and you almost kind of maybe get bought into that too much a little bit

and you can't can't maybe see the forest through the trees there and I had I knew a lot of scouts obviously L.A. was one of them who thought this guy's going to be a stud like this guy's on the path to start him kind of thing but there were some scouts who watched him

who told me you know 5-11 guy he's a good skater don't think he's an amazing skater don't think that the puck games, like anything special, like you're a nice player. I prefer my 10 as opposed to like three or four or whatever. And I think that's the opinion that's proven to be true. To your point about the size, and this is something that I think has kind of been come to be my feeling on the subject, is that it's not that you have to have size, speed, and skill, but you have to have some way to

separate from defenders in one-on-one situations. Some guys do it with speed, some guys do it with size and strength, and some guys do it with skill. But if you're going to do it with just skill, The skill better be crazy because it's really hard to do it on just skill. Yeah. I mean, I think I hear a lot of NHL evaluators made that argument that, you know, an ideal world, you check all the boxes. Yeah. But if you're missing one of the boxes or two of the boxes in a notable way, those other boxes

better have huge emphasis markers next to them. Right. Right. You know, so, you know, if you're going to be five foot age, you better be an electric skater with really good skill. if you're going to have skating issues you better be six foot three and compete really hard you know we were talking about the podcast before with jonathan he mentioned you know how there's no like um you know not a whole lot of competitive blue lines that don't have mobile defensemen

you know well Montreal went to the stanley called finals with shea Weber who was an excellent player and he's not an amazing skater but he's huge and competes like a bastard and and is really physical right he covers ground nonetheless yes he does it in his own own unique way. So I think those points are a lot valid. Yeah. All right. One of the guys that you said you got wrong on the other flip side is Shane Pinto,

and that's a guy for Ottawa where, you know, I kind of feel like, and it's not certainly every pick, but Ottawa shows up on these lists from time to time with guys who maybe the public sphere did not love, and after a few years, they turned out pretty good. No, I mean, several years in a row. I had to put Brady Kachuk on this list a few years ago. I put Josh Norris on this list a couple of the last year. year. They've appeared on this list several years in a row, which I'm sure Ottawa fans will take much, we'll take much pleasure in.

Jake Sanderson's tapping his finger right now, waiting on his turn. But I don't think, like, I've, I don't think I've been harsh on. You had Sanderson fairly, you've liked Sanderson. Yeah, like, I don't think I was harsh on him. Like, like, and I know, like, Ottawa fans get triggered if I've mentioned this. Like, I think I had my ground 10 on my last list. So it's a little bit too, a little bit too low. But you've seen the draft, like, play out since then.

Lucas Raymond is doing some things in the NHL right now. Yeah. You know, there's some other guys, whether it's like, you know, Lundell or... Drysdale. Yeah. I'm not saying I would take Sanderson over Lundell or take him over Driesdale, but there's reasonable arguments to be had, I think. You know, and, you know, so, like, I don't think I was like... You have Jack Quinn now in the American League doing great things.

You have Seth Jarvis already up in the league. And, you know, it looks like, you know, I thought he'd go back, but he's sticking around right now. now, quote, perfidy continues to do excellent things. Marco Rossi's been really good in the American League, holts is up in the NHL, like, you know, I don't think I was. Unless Sanders and, like, really, like, just kills that the next year or so I don't think he'll be, he may not be a quick mention list.

I mean, maybe with time, if he proves to be, like, the second or third or first best player or the draft, that would be, that would be a canon. But no, yeah, Ottawa. Shane Pinto shows up here, a pick that I think, he was an interesting pick, because I thought I watched a lot of him that year, live and on video. Saw him in the USA Chl, Sean the World Generate Challenge. And I always thought he was just kind of boring. Like 6-2 center, skating's just okay.

Has some puck game. He doesn't, like, dazzle you. Just looks like he's, you know, this big guy who works kind of hard and scores a couple of goals. and he makes plays, but he's pointed game in the USHL, which is good, but I think incredible, although he did play on, you know, the second half of the year on a very, very good team.

And he was a tall player on a team that was arguably the best team in the USHL he's in the regular season in Tri-City. That's one where I've kind of like learned, like, I don't think there was evidence at the time that's just what he's become, which is a guy, he's a top two-line center prospect,

guys, when it looks like, at least when he's healthy, obviously he's had injury issues to start the season, that looks like a really premium prospect. I don't think the evidence at the time suggested that.

And Ottawa didn't believe that either. I believe Dorian kind of said after they drafted him, they think he's a third line center. And I think they've kind of, also, he's exceeded their expectations. Sure.

But, yeah, I think I've learned that the boring good guys can still be good. That there's nothing wrong with, you know, if you look through

a given draft history, the guys who are playing full-time NHL you're talking 30 players 35 25 25 maybe 40 on the high end there's not that many so there's a guy there you know who has some size has compete has has some offense even he's not like an amazing skater like

those guys tend to play games and there's a place for them on a draft list is it in the first round he probably for more dynamic dynamic elements, even though he would definitely go in the first rounddown and redraft. But I probably should have been like more endorsing the second round picked there as opposed to what I was like, yeah, I don't know if he's going to do it. Like what's so special about this guy kind of think?

Because guys like that play in the NHL. Another guy on the two low list is Mort Cider. And we've talked a ton on this podcast about Cider. Have we? We've talked plenty about more than Cider. We did a whole article, in fact. about a year ago, about how Moritz-Sider had kind of won over a lot of draft analysts from his draft year. So I won't make you rehash all of that.

But I did want to hone it on just one specific aspect of his game really quick, which is his offense. And in year one, the offense has come really fast. He's running Power Play 1. He's doing things with the puck that, like, even as he had clearly ascended as a prospect over the last couple years, you know, I don't know that necessarily offense had come to the forefront. It was something that was clearly better than people thought. But, you know, he's got 30 years. 13 points in his first 18 NHL games here, running PowerPlay 1, you know, very early into that career. I'm just curious, you know, with that part of his game, is this a totally new level even that

you've seen from him? Yeah, I just, you know, I've watched lots of Mo over the last couple of years. You know, I've watched him since he was 16 years old, and I've just never seen that element of his game and be a standout. Like he's not like his puck game, his puck skills, the way, the thing, the kind of plays he can make. You see some flashes here or there. But, you know, for me, whenever I've watched him over there's always the skating, the size, the physicality, how good a defender he is, good first pass type. The brain.

Yeah. I mean, this is a guy, and that's kind of a thing where it was like in his draft year, he didn't play on the power play at all, like, ever in his draft year. So it was, he only time he did is when he went to go to the U20B pool that season. And like, I don't know, man. like he was really impressive at that tournament. Like he really was. He was the best defender at that tournament and all the credit in the world to how good he was. But he was playing against Austria, France, Latvia, Norway.

Even though he was really impressive, if I had told you a player had dominated like Norway and Austria, you wouldn't be saying, oh, well, that's exciting. Let me take him in the top ten. Like, you know, that's, it's, it was a really unique evaluation case. And I still think it came down to the World Championships. That was the most persuasive element. And he was really good in the DEL postseason too. And like you, that's when I started to kind of hear the whispers of the stock going up in.

But it was really that world championships where, you know, that was a world championship, not like the last one, where a lot of NHL players went to that one. And he, and he more than held his own. He got injured actually in it. But when he was healthy, he definitely looked like somebody who belonged. And even though he wasn't on the power play there either, that's the part that stuck with me. And I was like, oh, fuck, I could that. I should have been on that.

But you live and you learn. Yeah, absolutely. And then really quick, last guy on this list I want to touch on is Jonathan Dahl. And I thought you made a really good point in the write-up that you did about it about kind of his all-sfenskin production. And the point you made is there was not a lot of precedent. because usually at 22, if a Swedish prospect is ready to do that, they're already in the SHL, they're already in the HAL, they're already in the NHL, he was doing this in the Al-Sfenskin.

That seems like there's kind of a tie in there. Yeah, I mean, it's, I think what you're seeing with a lot of these is from Turcote, with cider, and Dallin is the unique cases are the hardest ones. I remember I had an NHL director scouting tell me, like, when there's a guy who's 6-2, it could skate, he has skill and he has 90 points in the CHL. I've seen that guy a million times. I've seen this track record a million

times. I can tell you where this is going. It's the unique cases that keep me up at night when I'm trying to evaluate guys. And that's one of them. I had some scouts tell me, hey, this guy's going to play in the NHL next year. He's going to get a top 9, top six four. I'm like, yeah, of course, right.

Like, you know, like, he got his ass kicked when he came to North America last time. And he was dominant in the Aspenskine then, too. Why is this time any different? Like, there's no way he's playing in the NHL next season. Like, he's small, I can't skate. Perimeter, yeah, he's got some skill.

He scores a lot in the Ossfenskin, but, like, I don't know. I've seen this movie before. I know how it ends. I did not know how it ends. I had a twist ending. Where he comes when he breaks camp and he's, like, on the top line for San Jose. He's scoring right away and making an impact. And I'm not saying he's going to be that long term, but clearly I was wrong.

and, man, he was, like, yeah, he was just so dominant at that level. And, you know, kudos to the sharks who traded their third-round pick for him that they had drafted earlier and used that asset to turn, get a really useful NHL player. Yeah, I was just, like, like, the other ones that were, like, kind of off on, like, oh, I should have had Turcotte a couple spots lower, I should have kind of have siders a couple spots higher. Maybe I shouldn't have said Pinto was a third, fourth rounder. I should have said he was, like, a second rounder. This one was like, this guy's not a prospect.

He barely or barely. I think I was like a friend like had a chance to have a prospect. And now he's like a top line four. Like that's just massive miss that just learning experience for sure. Pop quiz, who drafted him? Ottawa. Ottawa, the Ottawa Senator. So another point for that Ottawa Senator's Amateur Scouting team.

So here's the thing. I liked him when he was at Ottawa prospect. I liked him. He was really good and, you know, he was really good coming up. He was really good at his World Junior. just a really unique case the unique ones are tough you have you have unique ones in this year's draft

or you've got like an Austrian and Marco Casper playing in Sweden you've got like a couple of like premiums players playing in the Slovakian pro league and Simon Nimich and Philip Messar you've got like cases where you've got like Connor Geiki who's a premium prospect

and Winnipeg's such a deep team he's going to be playing on a second power play unit all T. you're not really getting a lot of prime minutes. The tough cases are the ones that I spent a lot of time on. And then just to wrap here, I know we're running a little short on time, but I did feel like we cut a couple of teams prospects short in the last episode that we did on early season, you know, rookie standouts basically. And I got to see one of those guys in person this week, and that's Cole Cillinger.

I thought he had an excellent game. And I did just want to give just a brief kind of window here for a few of those. guys, what we'll get to more in a second. But for me, like Cillinger, I thought was really good against Detroit. He had a particular shift that I can think of where I think it might have been a bit of power play, which obviously helps, but three really high danger chances in a row that, you know, I think probably at least one of them should have gone in. I thought the entire night, he played really well for Columbus. And, you know, I don't know that the advanced stats, I don't remember exactly how they graded out. I think it was probably better on the quality

than the quantity. But to me, like Coal Cilinger looks like a real, real player. Yeah, and that's another guy who, I thought he was a very good player, but I think he's exceeded all reasonable expectations of how good he was going to be right away. I know Columbus was very high on him, but for an 18-year-old, to be doing what he's doing, considering he's not even like that strongest skater too, like that thing just speaks to his skill, speaks to his hockey sense, speaks to how competitive he is. And that kid, for an 18-year-old, you can't tell versus NHL players. he's laying people out. He wins battles versus people who are seven, eight, ten years older than him. Just, yeah, just, you know, what a story for Columbus to get that guy into the organization and how important that's going to be for them going forward.

Like I said, just looks like a real premium, you know, I guess. Absolutely. It's entirely possible. We don't know exactly where Kent Johnson ends up playing as an NHLer, but for a franchise that needed centers for a long time, it's quite possible they found one, maybe two in this one draft. I'm sure they hope so. Absolutely.

All right, the other guy I wanted to get to just made his NHL. I don't know if he was this debut, Perinovich. I think it was his debut. Yeah, Scott Perunovitch. Yeah, we mentioned him before. It's good to see him to be called up. And obviously, he was just so good in the American League this year. He clearly didn't belong.

And we kind of like, I think the. The reason why he wasn't called up was apparently due to his salary cap issue. St. Louis is really up against the cap, and he had certain, I think, bonuses in his contract to prevent that would have given them some issues. But he's up now, and I expect he will help the Blues in a significant manner going forward. He was off to an amazing start in the inch. I think he was like, I think he was like two assists per game or something close to it. Yeah, it's like stupid, particularly for a defenseman.

Yeah, absolutely. All right, anyone else you want to touch on before we let everybody get on with their lives? Yeah, only a little obvious one is that just from watching the Ducks games of late, like Trevor Zegris, Trevor Zegris looks like he's feeling it. Like the scoring is coming now, but even when the scoring wasn't coming, you'd watch some of those games, and like he was doing some very, very unique things that he does very often. And, you know, Ducks are off to a surprising start, and I think Zegress is a big, reason why. I think he's going to be a very important player for that franchise for a very

long time. Well, we talked about that 2019 NTP team a minute ago with Turcott and Jack Hughes and all those guys. And Zegris, obviously, you saw it then. There's no doubt you saw it then. I think the question then was, how much of this stuff can he actually pull off in the NHL? And the answer seems to be damn near all of it. Oh, yeah, no. Like, yeah, we've been seeing him do those spinning, like, those spinning, like, backhand passes since he was 15 years old. And he just keeps doing it. He did it. You know, in college, you did it in the world juniors, he's doing it here, didn't, you know, I guess the hockey sense is just such at a high level.

Like, it's not just, you know, I think people like sometimes, like, well, like, you know, roll their eyes when I say, oh, he's pretty, you know, he's really high-end hockey sense, or it's elite or, you know, we reuse words, like, whatever, whatever superlative you want to, like, give when this guy's, like, you know, hockey sense or his vision, you know, give him whatever your highest accolade could be. and that's what he is. His creativity is just special. Absolutely.

All right, that is going to do it for us on this episode of The Athletic Hockey Show. Thanks for listening, as always. And if you're enjoying the show, please feel free to leave a rating and a review that really helps us out. And right now, annual subscriptions to The Athletic are just $3.99 a month when you visit Theathletic.com slash hockey show. Thanks again to Jonathan Bates for joining us. We'll talk for the rest of you soon.