The Athletic Hockey Show - Macklin Celebrini and everyone else: Pronman’s latest NHL Draft 2024 ranking

Episode Date: March 15, 2024

On a brand new Prospect Series edition of The Athletic Hockey Show, Max and Corey break down Corey’s latest NHL Draft 2024 ranking and discuss the clear gap developing between presumptive No. 1 pick Macklin Celebrini and the rest of the field.Plus, FloHockey’s Chris Peters joins the show to talk about prospects on the move at this year’s NHL trade deadline including David Edstrom, Casey Mittelstadt, and Bowen Byram, how Vegas has succeeded in dealing most of their prospects since their inception, what the Penguins should do to facilitate a rebuild, and the guys close things out with listener questions in the mailbag.Subscribe to The Athletic: http://theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. Hey, everybody, Max Boltman here alongside Corey Pranman for another episode of the Athletic Hockey Show's Prospect Series. Chris Peter is going to join us in a little bit, but I wanted to start, Corey, with your latest 24 NHL draft rankings out this week on the athletic. Something's not so surprising. You've talked about the strength of this defense class, and unsurprisingly, to that, you've got four defensemen in your top five.

something's more surprising. And I wanted to start with the forward group here because we've talked so much about the strength of this defense class and we'll get into them a little bit more in depth in a second. But there's a clear gap here now developing between Macklin Celebrini and whoever is the number two forward in this draft class. In this edition, it's Berkeley Caton, I think last time it was Caden Lindstrom. Can you just talk a little bit about kind of the shape of the forward crop of this class

and what we're seeing developing there behind Celebrating? Right, yeah. Like I said, it's a pretty significant gap, at least in my opinion. You could talk to some various NHL people. They may have a Ford that they're very passionate about. Some might say it's Kat and some might say it's Adamadov. Some might say it's Kahn Lindstrom. But everybody, I think, will admit there's a significant gap between the first and the second best forward in this draft. And some might even say it's at a very large gap. I think that's in part just because of how good, you know, the top of the draft is in terms of defense. But I think there would be NHL people who may be hard-pressed to say they think there's going to be a real impact forward in this draft after Celebrini, or maybe not a player they feel has a high probability of being an impact player. And I think there's some really interesting debates about who the next best forward is. I think, you know, we start with Ken, who is my number two ranked forward currently by the slimmest of margins, mind you. I see this really dynamic skating skill combination. He's been one of the top players in the Western League this season. I'm going to have 50 goals, 50 assists, you know, all-around player,

just has some size issues. Then you have Ivan Demadov, who was the MVP of the Russian Junior League last season. Seems to all indicators is he's been the best player again in the Russian Junior League this season by no surprise. Extremely skilled and creative, really good motor. You know, also not the biggest, powerful, but in. efficient, you know, awkward skating player. And then you have Kaden Lindstrom, who is the physical tools player, 6-3, extremely fast, extremely physical, has offense.

That degree of offense was maybe not to the extent of what Katten was, or Davidoff. And coming into the season, that was definitely a big question. I mean, he scored as an underage, but it wasn't at major numbers, just wasn't amazing the U-17 challenge, really was average at the Hulinkogretzky where Berkeley Kett, for example, was, I think, five times the player he was there. And then Lindstrom comes into the season,

and in those first two, three months of the year, he's on fire, medicine hats rolling over, people left and right. You know, the offense is playing at an elite level. He's being a big part of it. And then you have some other forwards I think would be in that conversation. Some scouts might have Consta Heleneas there.

Some might have Tijigeno there. some of my have coliager in there. But for me, that's where the number two forwards lies. Which of those two Western League forwards, Blintzheimer, Kannon, or Dammadov, would be your preference. So with Katton, I mean, we've talked in the past on the show about the small offensive center. I mean, I don't think we can call Katten just an offensive center. I think he's earned the title of kind of complete center, but still a 510 frame. We've talked about the challenge of finding true NHL comps for those guys.

And my temptation is to say that Katten, you know, know, everyone wants to go to Braden Point always. Katten probably is the best case of any of the guys we've talked about in the recent years, maybe other than, I guess, like a Logan Cooney, Cooley and Katten both, obviously, better skaters than Point was considered in his draft year by considerable margin. Do you have, does somebody come to mind? Is it Clayton Keller with better compete? Like, where do you kind of view Caton in that range?

Well, when we were doing comparables for Logan Cooley in his draft year, I had the same issues. it's like well who's is comparable he's he's a really good skater and he's talented but he's not like Jack Hughes talented right and he doesn't quite have like the grit of Vincent Trocheck and probably is a little bit more dynamic skill

wise than that is like well then maybe he's brain point it's like but not at every space is he really brain point like is he that's really what his play style was and that's where I mean that's the name I use for Cooley I didn't love it though and you know I and I got some pushback from you know our readers or people in the league about that one it's like well I get it but like I can't just make up a player and say well if he has this component

of the A and this component of B that's as comfortable because that's kind of not a really good use of a player cop but really for Caton the name who I think of quite frankly is Cooley I think of coolly at the same age and I can really draw a line from A to B and if that being said, said, how do we feel about Logan Cooley right now? It would be the follow-up question after his rookie year in the NHL. And I would say still very good. Like I think this is a guy, you know, he's got, I think, about 30 points or so as a recording right now.

Still a very talented, dynamic, skating skill combination, competes well. The offense kind of tailed off a little bit in the second half of the year compared to the first half, but it still looks like a guy is going to be a really good player for a long time. So he's going to be a star? you know, maybe. Like, you know, I think Arizona's hoping so, but I think he's going to need to prove it in subsequent seasons that he can produce at a very high level.

But that's the name I really think of when I think of Ken. Yeah, and I think with Cooley, like I think I was, I thought there was at least a chance that he could have something like a Tim Stutzler rookie year here, and that hasn't necessarily transpired. But we keep in mind what the first couple years of Jack Hughes's NHL career looked like, and I don't know that we see that endpoint in terms of the top, hundred point kind of territory here. But I do think that timeline is still fair to keep in mind for a coolly and eventually for a cat.

And I thought of Stutzel, quite frankly, when I watch Cannes, but I think the distinction between Stutzel and say Cat and slash Berkeley is 6061 versus 510. Yes. Those are, and that's a, that's a, I know some people, people get say, don't want to always get hung up on size, but when you're translating into the NHL, particularly as a rookie, that can matter. It can't for sure.

Especially as a teenage rookie. And the other guy that you talked about at the start of this conversation is Caden Lindstrom. That's no question for him at all, frankly. 6.3, the size issue will help him. In fact, he was much higher. Well, I mean, you can only be so much higher when you're at number eight. But he was higher in your previous ranking. And I saw the note at the end of the blurb you wrote up in this one where you talked about the chance that he could get pushed to the wing.

And I wonder how, first of all, where that kind of concern has started to come from for you. and second, like how much of that is why he drops to eight in this ranking as opposed to the previous. I think he was four in the previous. He is probably my toughest evaluation of the top prospects. And I think a big concern for me with him is going to be sample size in that he was really, really good for those first two, three months of the season, is that he was so much better than for what I've seen him previously. And then his season kind of ends. And I think it ended, you know, if everyone's season had ended just then, I think he's a top five pick all day, not even a question.

Because at least you had the same things to look at with other players. But that wasn't the case. If you look at all the players I have ranked around him, they've all had fantastic years, and particularly fantastic second halves. Katten's been on fire in the second half. Demodal's been on fire in the second half. Sam Dickinson, been on fire in the second half. The Ack and Chuck's been playing really well. Artie La Shudov has been playing really well.

Anton Salaya has been playing really well. And so you look at all those players and you're like, well, we don't know whether Lindstrom would have continued that upward trajectory in his play. I think you look at like scoring chances and shots on goal. Like, on a per game pace is way ahead of him. And so maybe would he have regressed a little bit? I don't know. There was hockey sense questions coming into the season on Lindstrom.

He kind of put those away in the first half of the year. Would those have tripped up back again in the second half? I don't know because now all of a sudden he had a hand in. injury that came out for a month and now that hand injury has extended into a back injury that might take him right close to when the WHL playoffs start. And so it's a really tough conundrum for me. And really the hockey sense is the one where I'm not so sure on Lyncham is because if he does have good enough hockey sense, then maybe he can be a Dylan Larkin type with that

frame and the high end skating and the compete and he'll drive offense. I mean, it'll be your, you know, your most high-end playmaker on your team, but he's he's going to score offense. If it's not that, then I'm thinking, okay, well, who does he look like in the NHL? And it's like, well, it's a lot of wingers. Like I think of Chris Kreider. I think of Valerina Kuskin. You know, both of who are great players, obviously, you know, Quentin Byfield maybe to an extent.

I think Kreider, New Kuchkin fit better than Byfield. But my point, you know, some might say Byfield might end up be back in the middle, but right now he's a wing. So I think that's where I think there's a lot of really good debates on Lenton. Like there are some people who I talk to who still adore this player who think like he could be a superstar who think like this is the number two

Ford is not even a question. And then there are some like me who have some reservations who would prefer Katten, who would prefer Demadov and have some questions on just, you know, whether they saw enough of him this year, what how good is the hockey sense particularly?

And I think, you know, depending on when he comes back, I think he's going to be a really interesting debate over these next few months. One other forward that the placement really caught me on this one is Cole Eisenman. And I think we've talked all year about, you know, he comes into the year as kind of this contender for top two, top three guy in this class and kind of steadily dip down all the way at 13 for you in this ranking, though. And that was kind of the point where I started to think, are we over scrutinizing Cole Eisenman at this point? because while there are holes in his game and all this stuff, right, it's maybe a little one-dimensional in the scoring side. That's not different than it was three months ago, right?

Like there's not a new concern here developing with Cole Eisenman. And I wonder at what point is the level of spotlight on Cole Eisenman, the scrutiny? What point does it get too much? And do you think we're approaching that point here? I would have a hard time lowering him too much more than where I have him right now. I mean, I've talked to scouts who have them lower than that, quite frankly, and that's where I think kind of what you said, like you said,

I think you have to wonder, like, is it this too harsh on this player? Well, he does have holes. He's not a player full of holes. I don't think his playmaking is great, but I don't think it's bad either. I think it's NH. I think it could be NHL average. I don't think he's soft. I don't think he has a super high motor either, but I don't think he's compete an issue.

You get to the inside. He even shows a little bit of physicality here or there. He's a good skater, not a great motor. great skater. But as I've watched him this year, and really the program in general for me, as the season has gone on, those players in general have become more concerning to me. As, you know, they come out of the gates a little bit slow. You're like, whatever.

Okay, it's the first few weeks. Then they go to that November Five Nations overseas. They come in second in the tournament after blowing, I think it was like a five. goal lead to Sweden in that in that in that game you're like okay that's concerning but they scored a lot of goals maybe they just got a bad goalie game which they did from from parsons in that game and then season keeps going on going to February again you know I thought he gave a very mediocre player pool at that U18 five nations in February I thought they played well but I didn't think they they dominated like they should have when fitman was sending their their C team and check yeah was

sending their B team and, and against that, you know, a Sweden team that really wasn't all that amazing. They still choke up a late lead and then lose an over, and then not losing overtime, I'm lose right at the end of the, at the regulation there to Sweden.

I just think there's a lot of concerns across that program. And frankly, it starts with the top players. I think, look at those defensemen. I think, you know, those quote unquote top defensemen haven't been amazing this year. You look at those top forwards,

which is Cole Eisenman, which is James Higgins, and I think you have to ask questions about why is this team losing so many games across all the various levels of competitions this year. And I think there is a part of their games where they don't have, you know, I think he's a guy who drives the bus.

You know, I think, you know, someone would compare him to Cole Cofiel. Cole Cofield drove the bus. Like he got a ton of scoring chances every single game and someone would say, well, he played with Jack Hughes and completely fair. But for me, that was what Cole did. I don't see Isman doing that.

I see him being a player with a lot of, I would say, inconsistency from game to game. I see him. You've kind of seen that and that he seems to have a new linemate almost every weekend kind of thing. Like they seem to have a hard time getting him going in the way where they feel like they're having consistent production and play from their team. And I think that goes to James Higgins too, quite frankly. I haven't loved James Hagan's as much as I thought I would this year. I'm not saying he still hasn't been really good. Sure.

But I think in like November, it was like, well, he's number one. He's number one. Like, it's kind of funny. Like maybe like two years ago we would have said, oh, number one pick in that draft. The 25 draft is going to be Michael Mesa. Don't even hear any scouts me even suggesting any more than he says a one-to-one. And then like, you know, coming to this year, late last year, it's like, oh, well, it's the James Hagan's draft. And now it's like deep in this year.

It's like, I don't know. Like people really like this frontel. kid in Sweden. He could be better than Higgins. Maybe Martone in Mississauga could be better than Hagan's. And I think that's Bikarck's part because I think things that those top players on the program just really haven't elevated. But all that being said, if they kill it in April at the U18 Worlds, I think

I think Isamun could, you know, compete his way back into being a clear top 10 candidate. I don't think he is right now in the view of the league or myself, obviously. but I think if he has a dominant April tournament, very well could. And I think that will be a test for them. I think Finland's going to be way better than what they saw in November and February. You know,

they're going to have Costa Haleanias back. They're going to have Emil Hemming. They're going to have VT. Vasonen, who haven't really played for them at the U18 level this season. There's the hope that Aaron Kivaharhu will be back for that tournament. Still not back from injury yet. It seems to be a week-to-week think right now with his injury. So I think team Canada is going to be loaded.

So I think it's going to be a really good test for that U.S. NTP team and for Eisenman, Higgins, Cole Hudson, Logan Hensler, E.J. Emery, Will Ska and others. And I'll be really interesting to see how they do. Well, really, the thing that caught me, I think, was about Eisenman in relation to Hellenius. And my first thought was, oh, like, is this, I don't know if this is a great kind of analogy, but is this like preferring Alex Turcott over Cole Caulfield? But you could also look at it another way, is it Anton Lindell versus Alexander Holtz? And I don't know which side of kind of that thing you would fall on.

I don't know if it has to be exact comp to one or the other. But is that kind of the right alleys here that I'm thinking along the lines of? Yeah, I'm not sure. I think he's quite Lundell, but that's the way I view it is I think Heleneas has had a lot of success on a good league of team this season. He's really skilled. He competes well. I think he's shown this year.

He's just got as much offensive talent as Iserman does, quite frankly. I mean, I know Isman has that track record of scoring a lot of goals, but what Haleigh is doing this year versus men is really impressive as well. And he's a center and he's competitive. So again, if you are an Eisenman, you know, Stan, I guess, for lack of a better word, maybe you don't agree with that. Maybe you think Arsman is an elite offensive player. But from what I've seen this year, I'm just not there with the player right now.

Still a good chance he gets that goal's record. We'll be monitoring that. Really quick on the D, Corey, because that is, I think, kind of the story of the class. And you've got 6D overall in the top 10. Zane Perrick and Z. Buiam at number 9 and 10. there are a decent gap behind Salaya of Dickinson, Yakimchuk, and Livshunov by the tier system you have here. But I want to know, like, how entrenched do you think that divide is between those top four guys, Salaya of Livshunov, Dickinson, and Yakimchuk versus Perak and Boe, who seemed like kind of the next two up, still in a very good range for those two.

Yep. And I think depending who you talk to, like with a given scout, they would, some might have Parake in that top group. Some might have Boyum in that top group. I think that's the distinction for me as I see in those four defensemen that I have right above them, which would be Saliav. Sam Dickinson, Artie Lipschunov and Cardiak and Chuck. I see players with all the traits. I see size, skating, skill, projectus two-way pro defensemen.

But something I have them there for various reasons, like I'll talk to some scouts who won't have Dickinson rate quite as high because they worry about how much offense he's going to have as a pro. or some who might have issues with the Ackamchuck skating in defense, even though I don't, but I know some who do. And some might see Zane Parake and say, well, I think this guy can be the next McCar or the next Queen of Hughes. I mean, the offense he's showing in the OHS right now.

It's just bonkers good, like how much how smart this player is and how dangerous offensively is. I mean, you know, everyone's talking about how good Artya Liff shoot-offs been this year. Zeev, boy, I'm scoring more than him by a significant number this season. He's two inches shorter. only two inches. So, like, I, I know some people who think Zeev Boyum should be a top five pick. And I think those are the sixth defensemen.

And I think it's going to be a really fascinating debate to see how it all plays out. What order they actually go in and seeing how their careers pan out. But I think with those four defensemen that I've said earlier, I just feel like they check all the boxes. They've all had really, really good seasons. And I think it's really easy to envision them playing big minutes on an HL team. Whereas I think with Parake or Boyam, they have to be legit top, you know, top three top power play guys in the NHL to have success.

Otherwise, their minutes are going to be more guarded. Good stuff. All right. We're going to take a quick break right there, but definitely encourage everybody to go to the athletic and read Corey's latest NHL draft rankings there. Lots of good stuff to dive into. You can easily lose yourself in that for quite a while. We'll take a quick break and be right back with Chris Peters.

All right, we are back. And bringing in our friend, frequent co-host of the show, Chris Peters from Flow Hockey. Chris, how you doing? Max, I'm doing well. I'm just chomping at the bit here after listening to your last segment. So I'm ready to fire some barbs if we need them. Well, that's good. You're just in time because we're going to get into now the NHL trade deadlines.

It's the first time we've talked since then, at least on the podcast, you know. But I wanted to dive right into one of the players that I just saw live a couple nights ago. I just got back from Buffalo watching Bowen Byram play there. He had a three-point night. He's got four points in his first three games in Buffalo. He's playing with Rasmus Dahlene. It's maybe not the headline-grabbing trade of the deadline because it probably doesn't have the biggest impact for, you know,

I guess on the Ave side of things, it's pretty big news for a contending team. But the Sabre's not really a contending team this year. But I think we should really talk about Byron. And we can lump Middlestad in, too, as some of the more interesting players long-term that were dealt at this deadline. Oh, no question about it. I mean, I think this was, you know, certainly as a watcher of the younger players in the league, especially on Bowen Byram's front, very intriguing deal, you know, and just in terms of,

there are a couple things that are intriguing about it. One, obviously, him being a top five pick, a guy that, you know, was part of a significant run into the Stanley Cup and, you know, played a good role there. And also a guy that has kind of been a little up and down. has dealt with a lot of different injury things and throughout his career. But it was also interesting because, you know, this is yet another left shot defenseman.

And just like, does Buffalo know that there are right-handed shooters that play defense as well? But that is, but that's the thing. Like you look at who they have done on the left side. You're like, wow, that's a lot of talent. That is a lot of talent, a lot of depth. And then obviously you see what Bowen Byram does right off the hop. And it's one of those trades where, you know,

I think Buffalo got a significant. value return on a player that, you know, a lot of people figured that they would be dealing. And, you know, I think Bowen Byram has that more proven track record, even though he's had some inconsistencies in his career. But then, you know, if you're the avalanche on the other side, it was an immediate need to have a top, you know, a top six center play. And, you know, we've now seen both players make pretty immediate impacts for their teams. So, you know, I thought it was a real fascinating move. But yeah, you look at, you know, kind of the long-term vision of what the Sabres are going to look like versus what, you know, the win now version of Colorado. I mean, I'm less, less interested in that, more interested in what it means for the future of the Sabres is a team that's, you know, still floundering after we thought they were going to take the step. So it's a great asset. It's just a question of now roster construction going forward and who's in, who's out, who makes sense. But they obviously have a lot of puck moving talent on their back end now. Could you imagine the internet's thoughts, you know, two years ago this time,

if you had told them Byron was going to be traded for Casey Millstatt straight up? One for one. I know. It would look. Yeah, that would have created an uproar. There have been a lot of online GMs that were saying, why am I not working for the Buffalo Sabres? And Byron definitely hasn't had an amazing year, but you've got to look at the context there of a guy who's playing behind some. pretty good defense minute with Ed Powerplay time there is not has not always been easy to get.

Mind you, you have to take the opportunities that are presented to you. And if somebody else is good ahead, somebody else good is ahead of you on the depth chart, you have to steal away their ice time. So it's not just, you can't just excuse that. But,

you know, now you see on me, even though there's still good defensemen on that team with a, maybe not quite as much talent around him, and he's playing a lot more and, you know, kind of looking, you know,

in an extremely short sample signs, mind you like the Bowen Byron you thought you were getting when you picked him at fourth overall. He's a dynamic skater. He's got pretty good skill. Hockey sense is good, not amazing, but he's competitive. And I think there's a lot there to work with long term as a potential top pair, all situations, defensemen there for Buffalo. But I think this trade is done, not just because of Byron,

but I think it's just because of just, you know, the fact of Casey Middlestead has all of a sudden kind of developed after probably being rushed into NHL too quickly and having some ups and downs, he was probably the Sabres best player, at least at Ford this season. I mean, when I watched them this year, mainly not as much in the last month or two, but definitely when I watched him in the early on the season, he was dynamic and, you know, it was all over the puck making so much happen. He's got elite skill, creativity, skating isn't amazing, but I think this is definitely a legit quality top six forward, top six center in the NHL right now.

now and someone who can really help the avalanche in their playoff push. His next deal is going to be fascinating, by the way. How do you kind of value a player who had the start that he had and then, you know, now to be where he's at? That's a fascinating next contract for Casey Middlestead of how much do you pay him for just this year versus the kind of collection of what it's been the last three or four. So that's what I'm curious to watch. But moving along to some of the other deals that we saw, I think let's go to the Jake

Gensel deal here because that feels like one where prospects maybe some of the more interesting part of. I don't know when we were talking about the Jake Gensel deal in the lead up to it that I saw Jake Gensel going for, for lack of a better word, this little, right? Like there's a lot of prospects in the deal. They don't get a first round pick. Michael Bunting will help him now. That's something. But you've got to really believe in the prospects that you're getting from Carolina here. And we talked about a couple weeks back, the challenges for Carolina of dealing from their farm system, there's not that many teams that draft like them. One of the teams that did was Toronto under Kyle Dubus.

And so that, I think, makes us a really interesting fit here. Yeah. And I think what's, you know, I think also what's interesting by this deal is it kind of shows the issues we discussed earlier with Pittsburgh. And it's like, what is the direction here? Are you trying to win or are you trying to rebuild? because this trade, I think, reflects both those issues, is that they get back Michael Bunting, who's a good player, who's under contract for term,

who will help them in subsequent seasons. And then they get some nice prospects back. Is there a premium prospect among this group? If you talk to some scouts, they would point to Ville, Coyvin, and say they're a real believer in that player. They see a guy who's had a lot of success versus pros this year, see a ton of skill in hockey sense. his skating is just okay

I think he's 511-6-0 so we'll see how I translate into the NHL but that's the I think he's the one where the biggest hopes are pinned on right now but yes they got a lot of you know it reminds me a little bit of like you know not the same caliber player but remember when Eric Carlson was traded

that he got the Ottawa said we got six assets back that kind of feels like this trade we got they got a lot of assets back And one of those assets, you know, turned, I believe, you know, that, you know, Josh North was in thought up super highly at the time. Obviously, he's been injured a lot lately. But he became a very good asset for that. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, and so. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Obviously, very unexpected, you know, so things can turn in an unexpected way. Obviously, I'm not saying that's going to happen. It's a much different caliber of trade between those two things. But, you know, could that second round pick become something?

Sure. Could Ponomario or Koiun and. turn to something, sure. Could you turn flip-bunting in a subsequent draft or deadline into something really good? Sure. So I think there's still a lot left to be played out in this deal, but I think it reflected the issues the penguins have going on right now. Yeah. And I also, you know, we talked about, you know, the quality of prospects. And we're, you know, we're basically, yes, as to Corey's point, Billy Coyvenin, you know, probably a B prospect in most people's eyes. You know, You know, I would say, you know, a guy that certainly has an opportunity to make it and be an everyday NHL player and is coming off of a breakout season.

But, you know, it's the guys that, you know, I think a lot of Penguins fans look at the guys that didn't move. The A level prospects that you might say there aren't a ton of them in the Carolina system. But they do exist. I mean, I think, you know, Bradley Nadeau is certainly a guy that is having a tremendous year. And you're saying, well, we want at least to get one of their top prospects back. and we talked about it in an earlier podcast about, you know, just basically, as you mentioned, they draft a certain way, a certain type of player. And, you know, how many of those guys are really going to help you at the NHL level?

I mean, because even Bradley and Joe is a prospect, the guy that scores, a guy that's having a great season, you know, he's a smaller player, you know, there's not, not as certainly a fit for every single team. And, you know, that's one of the reasons why he lasted as late as he did into the first round. But, you know, I would say that, you know, I thought given the situation that the penguins were in to get volume in this deal was good because they needed so much and there are so many holes in their system. There are some that are starting to look like they might be getting plugged a little bit. You know, Yol Blalmquist continues to improve at the HL level. So showing some promise there.

So there are some guys in their system. I think Kovinen coming to North America next year is going to go a long way to find out exactly what he's going to be long term. I think that he could be a mid-lineup kind of guy. I like Ponimarev. I had him in his draft year I had him as a first round pick that was a little over the top, you know, from what he's become. That's another guy that, you know, I term as like a low B prospect with an opportunity to play games. And then, you know, I'd say the jury's still out on Cruz. But, you know, he is actually led Wisconsin scoring this year, had a tremendous season overall.

all, real good growth and development. And also playing under Mike Hastings is going to help round out his game. I think that we've started to see that already from him. So there's still potential in his game. But I think it was it underwhelming considering how devastating it looked like the Jake Gensel trade was to the veteran players on that team? Probably, yeah. But I still think that this isn't a deal that I felt like they completely undershot it. You know, I don't think that they got fleeced.

I just think that it was a trade where, you know, this was where Carolina's surplus of prospects in that kind of mid-tier range worked to their favor because somebody was willing to, you know, take that on. And they got Jake Gensel for, you know, a subsequent, what we expect to be a long playoff run. Yeah, I just struggle with not getting a first round pick for Gensel. But I guess the way you have to rationalize it is if the idea here was, you know, all futures, you're probably, maybe have a better chance of getting the first, but you get bunting. He gives you something for these next couple of years with Crosby, and that's probably the way you have to rationalize it. If you are in Penguins management right now, and if you're thinking to yourself, what is the goal

for 2024-25? Not what you would tell the media, not what you would tell your players, but if you're being honest with yourself, what would you actually say is your goal now for next season? move old players and money. I mean, I don't know how possible it even is, but that's what I would be wanting to do. Or if they're allowed to do it.

Yeah, right. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. As long as you have Sidney Crosby and a guy that's playing as well as he is in his age 36 season, if you're not saying we're going for it, you are not doing your job as Penguins management at this juncture.

Or, you know, think about all the people that were, you know, seriously talking about Sidney Crosby not being a Pittsburgh penguin. I don't think there's a scenario in anyone's world where that's a win. So that's the other thing you kind of have to figure out now is what's, because like how much value does any of the older players have? Are they going to be able to move Eric Carlson next year? I don't think so.

I mean, it's going to be really difficult to do it. I mean, hey, maybe you could get a nostalgia play in Ottawa or something like that, but I don't know. I mean, it's going to be really interesting to see what they do. And I think that they're, they are backed into a corner a year. long corner that they've been backing into, you know, for quite some time. But, you know, I think this, I think last summer was a damaging summer for them for their future. It's like, do you, do you keep your first round pick this summer? Like, do you trade future

first round picks? Do you trade Yeager? Do you trade pickering? Like, what, like, what's the, I just, I do wonder what the, what the, what the plan here is, exactly. there's a point where I think you have to look at it as you you kind of owe it to yourself to try to win as much as you can with Crosby but you also I think I have to owe it to yourself to recognize when it's just not going to happen like that happens for everybody right like it happened in Chicago it happened in Detroit so you basically just pushing Crosby and Malkin out essentially I don't know that you have to get rid of Crosby but you have to you have to get younger you certainly have to get younger I think I don't know more like asking like

do you make him almost want to leave essentially. It's a great question. Yeah, I still think any scenario in which Sidney Crosby is not a Pittsburgh penguin for the rest of his career is something you will never live down as a manager of that team. You cannot. So that is not an option for you. So what do you do otherwise? And that's the corner that you're backed into now. Yeah. No, it's, it's a lot easier said than done to talk about what, what I think probably has to happen or would be the best case scenario to happen. It may not be as possible as we'd like to think it can be really interesting. On the other side of this, a team that still definitely

is pushing the chips in and has every reason to do so and might well be rewarded for it is the Vegas Golden Knights. They make two of the biggest deals of the deadline. They had Noah Hanifin. Obviously, they add Tomas Hurtle. We've heard a lot about the Vegas side of this deal already on this show talking about the LTIR stuff. I think Kelly McCrimmon was on with Sean and Mike Russo on Wednesday. I want to talk to you guys about David Edstrom. First of all, him as a player. And second of all, maybe in a bigger picture sense, this Vegas team doesn't seem like it's going to really hold on to too many prospects here. And I want to know kind of what the big picture implications of that are. So, Corey, let's start with you.

And let's start small on Edstrom. Right. I mean, well, he's not small. He's big. He's a six three setter. He skates quite well. He is a two-way player. And I think when you hear that, you're like, oh, it's boring.

But, I mean, he's scoring at a pretty impressive rate in the SHL this year. He has been a regular part of Rolanda's power play this season. You know, it was a top power play guy for Sweden at the U18 level of the prior year. I'm not saying he's the dynamic offensive player, but I think there is a guy who you can envision becoming this really nice two-way, potentially, you know, second-line center. If he hits third-line center, I think at worst in the NHL, you know, a night, you know, if he's a two, he slots in, I think really nice behind Will Smith,

who has, you know, been on a tear, mind you lately unrelated in college. And, you know, maybe Philip B sets one of the centers there, but I think that I think he fits in nicely with the young players that San Jose is putting together right now. And I think it was a really good deal for San Jose, quite frankly. I've seen a lot of internet praise praising Vegas for this deal. Like, I've seen Hurtle at his aid with his injury history, never been the best skater too, mind you. I have real questions on how that contract's going to age. And to get a really nice prospect in Edstrom and a potential future late first for Hurtle, I thought was a really nice piece of work by San Jose.

Chris, the center outlook here now with Edstrom, Philip Easton and Will Smith, how does that stack up for you? Is this a team that now has its centers of the future, or are you still looking for, I don't know how you view necessarily Will Smith as the top of the line number one there. Would you rather be a number two or even a winger? Yeah, I mean, I still think you're hoping that McClintellararine lands right in your lap when the summer is over. But at the same time, I like the balance that they're striking here. You know, obviously Will Smith, not a big physical guy.

Edstrom has that size advantage. I love the player. You know, he's 23 on my board last year at the going into the draft. And, you know, just a guy that I think is. going to flourish, you know, between him and B-Stat, two guys with some good size, you know, B-Stat certainly with that skating ability. That's, you know, Vegas is, or sorry, San Jose is doing, you know, things well at the center position right now. You know, I think to your point, the question is going to be like, well, Smith, to me, can he be a play driving center? I do think he can.

You know, it's just the situation is going to be, is this defensive game strong enough are the things that he does strong enough to allow him to be, you know, the minutes eater that you need for that guy. And that's less clear. However, I do have, you know, just tremendous value in terms of what he's going to be for Samson-Hose long-term. And I do think he's going to be a massively productive player over the course of his career. He's just too smart, too skilled to not be, you know, an impactful guy. And I think that that's going to happen. But, yeah, and I think to Corey's point, it is.

You look at this deal and it makes a heck of a lot of sense for San Jose. I think getting, I think it's a huge value add from moving on from hurdle with this kind of package. You know, we talked about B prospect being the last deal. I mean, Edstrom, to me, is a clear A prospect as a guy that I think will be, you know, a higher level contributor to an NHL team. Whether that is as a two-way guy where, you know, he's more, he might not be. on your top power play. You know, I think that there is certainly value to a player like him.

So, yeah, but you look at San Jose is just kind of this, they're very much in that, you know, kind of mid-terterdown situation and now have really, you know, certainly improve themselves coming out of this most recent trade deadline.

It's a big tear down in San Jose. And one of the ways you get into a massive tear-down is by going for it year after year after year. And San Jose was right there. for a long time. And I think you can kind of tell where I'm going with this, Corey, is, you know, there's probably more recent examples we could use. Heck, you could probably talk about Pittsburgh, shouldn't talk about Tampa Bay right now.

How sustainable is this for Vegas? How long can they keep, you know, because they still have their first round pick this year. And I can't help but thinking they're going to make that pick at this fear and then trade of it next year's deadline, too. Well, one thing for Vegas is, especially with the moves they made at this year's deadline is, I hope they work because they still need to make the playoffs. That's not a guarantee. right now. I think they are in the seventh. They're the eighth seed right now as we're talking.

It's a really good roster and it's gotten better. Obviously, Hurtle will take some time before he's in their lineup. But I think they will be a playoff team. I think they can be a contender this year, but they actually have to make it. And you look at like some of the picks and the prospect they traded away and it's hard to, you know, say there's there's any remorse on that regard. You know, they turned Peyton Krebs into part of the deal for Jack Eichael. They turned Zach Dean into a part of the trade for Ivan Barbershev, who was so good for them in the playoffs. You know, the only one who I think they're really looking at it, you know, Mark Stone was used for to get Eric Branch from Eric Branstrom.

I think the only one where there's maybe Eddie like remorse would have been patcher ready for Nick Suzuki. But otherwise, I think they're like, this works. And they still have Brandon Brisson that they could, that they could use as trade-made in future times. I don't know. It's kind of been funny watching how big as operates in that even though they don't have a ton of picks and prospects,

there are still young players who have been playing for this team consistently, whether it is guys like Versaun or Pablo Dorofia for Paul Codder, Cajon, Korn, Zach, you know, they got Zach Whiteclad out of college and became an important player for them. Hey. There isn't, hey, there isn't like they never have any young players on this team either. But eventually it will catch up with you because I think if you, mentioned. You mentioned Pittsburgh, who are dressing names like Drew O'Connor and Valterrey

Puson lately in regular, regular rules. Or you look at Tampa Bay, where you have, you know, whether it's Mikey Asamont, whether it's Hayden Flurry, whether it's Nick Purbix, whether it's Mitchell Chafee playing, you know, regular minutes for them. It's at some point, the pain will come. but you just hope you got a couple of championships along the way. Yeah, you know, it's so interesting looking back and, you know, like, you look at all the, you know, when you put them all side by side and it's everybody's gotten traded, you know, they're all gone, you know, if you're first wrong except for Brennan Bresan. And, you know, I'm sure there's, you don't have to do too many conspiracy theories to think about why it would be beneficial to keep him around. but also the other things that we talk about is like like Corey said when you look at trading first round draft prospects or guys you are in your system Vegas probably maximize value on most of the first round picks that they traded you know with the

exception of Suzuki and obviously Cody Glass was kind of a sunk asset at that point when they traded him for Nolan Patrick so you know like there are all these different things but it's like it's also like oh, you know, like the drafting of the first round players hasn't necessarily been all that lucrative for the teams that they end up trading them to. Like, you know, those players. And there's jury still out on some of these guys still. I mean, there's still plenty of time for guys like Krebs and Zach Dean and, you know, to find their way as impactful in each of players. But, you know, the thing I look at is you have to be really strong in your second and third

round drafting. We talk about guys like Haig. We talk about, you know, the guys like Kotter that find a way. they still have some of those guys in there. There are guys like Matisse Sopoval. It could still potentially be a player for them down the road. You know, different players that are still kind of, you know, figuring that things out. I mean, they have a few of those guys in Henderson right now and some of their defense prospects that they've put down there and have been trying to work their way up to the NHL.

But the interesting thing, the other ways that you kind of try and maximize it, you know, we saw Zach White Cloud, huge assets. that as an undrafted free agent, they're going to have to continue to be very aggressive in undrafted free agency, I think, in order to continue to, you know, populate Henderson with players that could potentially play for them eventually. This isn't an amazing, uh, undrafted free agent year by any stretch to the imagination. It's fine. You know, there are guys, there are options, but it's not, you know, you may not get guys that way. Also, you're not, it's harder to recruit those guys when you don't have a clear path forward to the NHL for a lot of them. And with Vegas and win now mode, it's harder to get work those guys in. So it's hard.

to recruit those players as well. But yeah, I mean, I think eventually at some point, you know, players are going to get old, players are going to get injured, players are going to move on, and they're going to be in the same place. They're going to be up against the cap. They're going to have a lot of these issues. But the thing is, the one thing I'll say about Vegas's strategy is this is the kind of strategy that I think everybody kind of loves, right?

Like, it's this guy, everybody wants their team to be going for it. Everybody wants their team. And I loved it when Kelly McCormin said, you know, why do you do this? Well, we pay. And I also think not being too precious about your prospects can be beneficial to you. You know, when it's like, hey, he's a first rounder. We love him. But is he really, does he have as much value as you think he does?

Is he going to be the player you think he's going to be? Or do you have a player that is the player? You already know that. So that's the other thing that's kind of fascinating is, you know, hey, maybe this, if they win another cup, you know, This is a copycat league, right? Our team's going to copy this. I mean, it'll be interesting to watch for sure. I think there's been some Carolina fans that have wished their team would be a little bit more like that at times.

And we're very happy to see them part with some prospects and some picks, even though, you know, you know, where you can argue whether those were top prospects or not, but to see them, you know, try and go for it. That's an interesting kind of point, Chris, about the prospects and he has a first-arm pick, not being too precious. I want to know, Corey, like, do you think that a prospect has kind of more value than a pick because it's a known quantity, you know who they are, you know it's David Edstrom and you scouted him, or is the pick because of the mystery box factor, do you think? I mean, I'm sure it depends on the prospect, but in this case with Edstrom. I would think most teams would say the pick is more valuable than the prospect. Because when it comes to the prospect, nobody will know that player in the world better

than the team that drafted him. they will have full access to his medicals. They will have had player development people working with that player closely. And there's no way you will have more information than the team trading. It doesn't mean that you're not getting a really good player. In case I say David Aström, for example, doesn't mean that the sharks, I don't think are still not getting a really good player. But like, it couldn't help but think when Bowen Byron was traded by Colorado to Buffalo.

I couldn't help but think like, man, like I would have wanted to have like 20 doctors look over those medicals. if I was in Buffalo's position. Because I'm sure Colorado was transparent. I'm not alleging anything unethical. But if I was in Colorado's position and this guy has had multiple injuries, serious injuries at times,

you are definitely operating from a position of strength when it comes to dealing this player. Because there's no way anybody else knows what that player has been dealing with for the last few years like you have. Yeah. Really good stuff. stuff. We'll wrap there on the trade deadline. We'll take a break and we'll come back and close show with a mailbag.

All right. Let's get to the mailbag now, guys. And I'm going to start with you, Corey, for this one from JJ Gab, who says, why is Liam Greentree being so discounted as a top 10 pick? Look at his production compared to his teammates. As a draft eligible, then look at Katten, who has roulette. And for comparison, look at point. He sends along some screenshots. But I think you get the idea. Like, Green Tree, production-wise, especially relative to his teammates, really strong. Not yet in that top 10 territory wise. that. You know, it's a good conversation. And when it comes to players on bad teams, I think it's always like it's a chicken or the egg argument. Like, you know, is he, is it really impressive that he's producing so much on a bad team? Or if you're playing 25, 27 minutes tonight on a bad team and does that speak negatively on you as a player in some regard not in a way that I still think Green Tree is not a really

excellent player, but is he a guy that can go drive the bus consistently at the junior level? I think that's been a question with Green Tree is despite his great numbers, there have been some consistency concerns with him at times watching him at the junior level. I think he's really talented. He's got an excellent skill. He can shoot the puck. He makes plays. He's big.

I think his skating's just okay. I think his compete is fine on a major asset. I look at him, and I think there's a lot of analogies I draw personally. Here's Chris things. I see a lot connection between him and Quint and Mustie at the same age in terms of the frame, the play style. made this guy's a little bit more competitive. He's already the captain of his junior team as a 17-year-old. I mean, there's a little, I think just generally there's a little bit more consistent

season in his game than musty was really inconsistent, I thought, as a junior in his draft season. That's kind of where I fall. I think for him to go top 10 at that frame, he's going to need to, like, dominate the U-18 world. And I mean, dominate it to, I think, to work his way into that range, just just given the issues with his skating. All right, Chris, next one is from Michael Morris, who says of the four defensemen at the top of, in this case it's Corey's, most recent draft rankings,

so that would be Celayaev, Lev Shunov, Dickinson, and Yakimchuk. Where do you see them playing next season? Will any of them be in the NHL? Oh, wow. Yeah, that's a good one. I think, yeah, it's always, I mean, well, we already know where Celiav is, not in the NHL. He'll be in the KHL. So we already, that's the easy one.

But, you know, I think the, I think the team that does draft Leveshinov, I would not be shocked if he, if he signed does not mean that he would play in the NHL right away. I can definitely see him playing in the HL first. There's, could he go to the NHL? I think his progression year over year and the last going from, you know, how he played in the USHL in year one, how he's played in college in year one, you know, he's had a, you could definitely do it that way. I think if you are the NHL team that drafts him and you know where he is

and know who he's working with and Adam Nightingale, you're saying, well, you know, if we're a team that's really struggling right now, we don't have a spot for him. It wouldn't be the worst thing in the world for him to go back and play another year. But I could definitely see him signing right off, right off the hop here. As far as the other guys go, you know, I think that the team that drafts Dickinson will certainly want to give him a good long look in training camp. and see where he's at. I wouldn't be shocked to see him go back to junior. I think that that probably, you know,

there are certainly elements of his game that are grown man game and there are elements of his game, especially some of the hockey sense things. I'd like to see him clean up a little bit. I'd like to see him. I mean, obviously he's been such a dominant force. And so I think you want to give him every opportunity to prove that he might be ready. And I think you could probably say the same thing about Yakum check as well.

But, you know, those, it's a really interesting year in that I think a lot of those guys, you could give, you could certainly give them the chances and want to have options and why, you know, whoever drafts left Shanava can certainly see them just wanting to have the option of saying, well, if he's not in the NHL, at least we can put him with our HL team. And so, you know, it's a little tougher with the guys that are in junior because, you know, you say, okay, well, they performed at such a high level, you know, can they continue? Is it worth sending them back there? you know, those are the arguments you have to have. But I'd be, I'd be interested to hear what Corey has to say on that one, too, just in terms of where those guys would be. But that's kind of, you know, my general take on those guys. It's always taught, especially for defensemen, to project them into the NHL immediately. And I think we've seen plenty of instances where it's been too much too soon for guys

and in instances where they just do just fine, albeit often sheltered. But that's my take on those guys. My answer will be pretty similar. I think left shootoffs at 50-50 to be in the league next year. And I put late birthday, he's really physically developed already. And then I think, like, Dickinson's got about, like, a 20, 25% chance. The trend on top demon has been to not come the year of the draft. The trend has been for the college guys, go to another year at college.

We really haven't had that many OHL guys that high up. But I'm trying to think of who the tendency breakers here even are in the last five, six years. Yeah, because, I mean, even Bo and Byron went back after, you know, drafted. And the other thing is, too, is the data on the guys that have spent two years in college, most of those guys were competing for the Calder Trophy the following year. You know, like guys like Quinn Hughes, like Cal McCar, you know, Anderson.

Sanderson, Owen Power. I mean, though they all were two-year guys in college. Yeah. Yeah, Dahlene, really, I think, the last to go straight, right? Was he the last of the defenseman? 18. Yeah, even Hayeskiden did one full year in Finland right after. after it.

Yeah. It's not a whole lot of them. Yeah, for sure. All right. Habs draft nut, Corey, wants to know who are the most polarizing players for scouts would be in the draft this year? He says excluding Trevor Connolly. Well, you know, we've talked a lot about the guys right at the top of the draft.

Like we've talked, we just did a whole segment on Eisenman earlier, a segment, but we talked about him at length. We've talked about, you know, Carter Each and Chuck over the last, you know, month or two. I think there's some scouts I talked to who sees 6-3, high-end, offense, physicality, and think he could be a top pair, maybe even a number one defenseman in the NHL one day and some who don't love his skating, love his defending, and don't even think he's a top 10 pick.

I'm more on the former than the latter, but there's definitely that divide. We talk a lot about those two players and the divides on them. A little further down, I think in Gindla is becoming a little bit of a divisive player. I've talked to some scouts who adore this player, like adore him, who think he's better than Berkeley Cat, and who think he could be a top eight, maybe even like a top five or six pick in this year's draft, who see a super skilled natural goal score. And then I talk to some scouts who, quite frankly,

don't think he's even like a top 15 pick who they see average hockey sense, who don't see a guy who's like an all-around player. He's just a skill guy who's a goal score. I think that's actually quite interesting debate you could have about Eisenman versus a gindler. How similar are they as hockey players?

And what is the distinctions between the two of them and where should they fit ultimately in the draft? I think that'd be interesting debate. I think Charlie Alex is becoming a very divisive player. I know some people who just absolutely hate this player to have no time for him. You know, I just think there's no offense there at all. And there are still quite a few scouts

who think he's going to be a legit NHL defenseman because he's a really, really good skating six-three defenseman with physicality and not a ton of offense, but he still got 20-something, 25 points on the season. So I think that's probably the most divisive players off the top of my head. All right. This one is for Chris, but we could probably all weigh in on this at some point, I guess. Charlie Douglas says, if you were Kyle Dubus and the Penguins pick ends up in the 8 to 10 range, would you give up the unprotected 2025 pick?

Or would you give up the 2024 pick in that 8 to 10 range, assuming you don't win the lottery? Obviously, this is a result of the Carlson deal, the Penguins Oval pick to the Sharks. Yeah. I think. Kind of goes back to Corey's point about the direction here. Yeah, exactly. And I mean, it's a really interesting question. because there are a lot of different ways that this can go. And if it is top 10 protected, you know, you go ahead and you decide to keep the pick. And I'm trying to think back, Max, and maybe you can refresh my memory.

When Ottawa was in this exact same situation with the Air Carlson trade, if I'm not mistaken, where they had the opportunity to either keep a pick and then the following year, shoot. Now I'm screwing myself up. Let me look at that real quick before. That was the Dushane. Was that the Dushan trade? In the in the Cachuck year, and they kept it and picked it to pick Cichuk. And then they lost, they were the worst team in the league.

But that pick fell all three spots. So Colorado got Byron. But that could have been Jack Hughes. It could have been Jack Hughes. It could have been Jack Hughes. Yeah. So exactly. So you are running a huge risk if you, this, this 2025 pick would be unprotected,

as bad as the Penguins have been this year. And you say, okay, well, we're going to keep that top 10 pick. and we're going to or we're going to trade it or we're going to do whatever we want to do with it. You now have none of that protection. If you finish the last, you could be missing out on the next player that does that. I'm always of the mind where you go with what you know. And I would, you know, you keep, I would keep the top 10 protected pick and make the pick, probably. But that is, as we've talked about, this all depends on where they actually want to go.

in the direction of their franchise. That's the long-term play. Taking the pick is the long, making the pick is the long-term play. The short-term play is retaining that top-10 protected pick, trading it away to a team that wants it, and then continuing to go for it, leaving yourself at a huge risk the following year

to potentially lose that on an even higher pick. But, you know, I think that's going to be the real question. I think that there's going to be pressure to continue going for it and to throw caution to the wind and to potentially trade that pick away, which I think would probably be the most value they could get, you know, at this stage of the game, to get somebody that could actually help them next year. It does change their incentives a little bit, though, if they don't have a pick in 2025.

If they make the pick this year, they don't have the pick next season. They know going into the fall. that doesn't matter how bad they play, they're not keeping their first round picks. You might as well try to win games. Yeah. Yeah. And to me,

like when you think about like the worst case scenario of like, oh, it's the 2025 unprotected, it could be number one overall. If you think that there's any chance, like not any chance, there's obviously a chance. If you think that that's like even reasonably likely,

it means you don't really believe that much in, in winning in the next two or three years anyway, just get the, get the bus moving on this rebuild and take a top. eight to 10 pick while it's there, I think. And if you turn out to be kind of good next year, like Corey said, like if you, you have the incentive to push and if you decide, hey, actually, we can win next year, you can still trade that player that you picked at eight to 10.

I don't know if it's going to be, you know, Zeev Bouem or Ivan Demadov or whatever, but that player is going to have value too. Maybe not as much as the pick in the top 10 pick in the abstract. I think you make that pick, planning on it being a big part of what you're going to have to do in the future anyway. Because if the 2025 pick is going to be better than top eight, you're cooked, period. right like it's just not happening then you might as well have gotten the ball rolling on having a real farm system sends a really shitty message as well to your players and your fans

as well if you basically imply i think we're going to be worse next season yeah right and i think making the pick is a little bit of a you know vote of confidence in that way too isn't it it could be or or it's or or it just tells your fan base okay you can sell it was okay you can you sell it as a vote of confidence. Yeah, that's what the messaging should certainly be that. No question. Yeah, absolutely. All right.

Back to Corey here. John Sebastian Godin said, what are the upside and comparable for Beckett Seneca? I'm really intrigued by his position on your and Bob McKenzie's list despite his production. Yeah, he's a really fascinating player who has kind of grown on me as a season has gone along. The toolkit really jumps out of you. Like, I remember when I was watching with the CHL top prospects testing, like just watching him skate around the ice. The skating, especially for a guy who's six two, a little over

six two, I think, jumps out immediately. Then you watch him in the games and his puck handling skills really high and he makes really difficult plays at quick tempos. And, you know, and now he's like, I know the point production hasn't been amazing, but Osha has been a really good team, particularly here in the second half since Calam Ritchie who's been on fire. And like, I feel like not, not getting enough discussion just how good Cal and Ritchie's been lately in the OHL. But like, Those guys that, you know, and a bunch of other places in Oscebo, I've been playing really well. They're top in the Eastern conferences we're recording right now. And when you watch Seneca, he's, like, the points may not always be there, but I watch him.

I don't, like, he can be a little inconsistent with his effort, but I don't think he's soft or like or lazy. And I think, you know, he really has a lot of talent, stands out to me on a consistent basis, or at least enough of a consistent basis when I watch him. and I just see a guy who has the ability to really pop in the NHL. Like, you kind of, I think of like, you know, when Jordan Kairu was that age, he didn't have a ton of production either, but he was just so talented. We were like, man, if this clicks, he could become a really good player. And that's the kind of, that Kairu isn't exactly the comp I have on Seneca right now.

If I had to think of one player, I thought of like Ricard Raquel maybe a little bit while watching him. Turns of just the high-end skill, good skater, decent enough size. Probably a little bigger than Raquel, actually. but that's what I think of when I watch this play. I'll be really interesting to see how his playoffs go and how the rest of his year goes. But he's definitely been a guy that's been on the rise all season. So he doesn't have the kind of complete attributes of like a Hanzek then for you?

No, but he's much more skilled than a Hansek, I think. Yeah, okay. Got him in the same range is why I asked. All right, and then we'll go to Chris for the last one here. or NHL and Atlanta wants to know. Actually, not about NHL in Atlanta. If the Flyers don't make the playoffs, then how disastrous was this season for their rebuild?

I mean... Just an easy one for you. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, if they don't... I don't think it was terribly disastrous. I mean, obviously, the whole... I would rather have Cutter Goce than Jamie Drysdale, but that's just me.

But obviously, that was never going to be an option. So it doesn't matter. You know, I think certainly that is going to be the touch point of the season for me in terms of what this means for the Flyers rebuild. I don't think that there's anything wrong with competing and trying to contend for a playoff spot. And the fact that they have a lot of younger players and including now, you know, Jamie Drysdale, who's probably going to be, you know, if not a core piece, an important piece for them going forward. the you know there's there are going to be some tangential benefits to the players that were part of pushing for a playoff spot that you know i think i think does help but you know there's there's there's so many different ways to go with that because i still think that they're in a better position now than they were you know a year ago with with you know i think mat bay mitchcob is an important piece for them i think he's a core you know corporate player and prospect um i will be fascinated to see how long John Tortorella is there to help this play out, like how many of these guys are going to come under his guidance,

you know, and, and that'll ultimately, because I mean, basically that was the play. It's like, we want torts to be the coach. We want him to,

and they, they didn't stop him from going, you know, going for, they didn't start trading away assets and different things like that. So is it, I think progress may have stalled this a certain amount, and certainly you're not going to get the,

high-end draft pick that you wanted to. I still think you're going to be able to get some value for your team. But yeah, I mean, it's in the end, I think that the Flyers are trying to go about a rebuild without tanking, which is hard to do. But that's kind of where I think they are right now. Let's call a Spade at Spade. This season kind of feel pretty fluky for them too, right? Oh, 100%.

Like they're, look at the Ross. They're not a playoff team. Like they're on the numbers, like their bottom, they're a bottom 10 per game offense right now. They don't have a goalie. Obviously, Carter Hart's not there anymore. But even when he was there,

he wasn't playing at a super high level anyway. Like this team shouldn't be in a playoff rate. They've won a lot of close games and, and kudos to the players for squeezing out points and, and putting themselves in this position to where they might be able to make the playoffs. But they probably should be in the mix more for a top 10 picked than a playoff spot. It didn't work out that way. I don't think it's disastrous.

for the rebuild. I don't think whether you pick 17 versus 8 is going to fundamentally change the trajectory of your rebuild. You know, the difference between 17 and, you know, three is probably more significant in that regard. But,

I mean, I think it's very possible at the time next year. They could very well be at the bottom again. And it's just, you know, this kind of flukeish season is kind of in the rear view of mirror. Right. And it is important to note,

like, you know, obviously we know the situation with Carter Hart, but there is no plan B. There is nothing there. And that is, and that is to that is beyond losing Carter Goce, who I thought could have been, you know, a very important piece for them. Losing Carter Hart and then also not having really anywhere to go. Now that's a huge hole in a team that if you are rebuilding or if you, when you need to build, you need to have something there. They don't have that now, which is, which is going to make. And that kind of also changes. your plans for how you do, you know, your drafting in different things.

And there's, there's, I mean, there's not a goalie in this year's draft that I'm looking at that I'm like, yep, that's going to be the, that's going to, that's going to put some tape over that. So there's a lot of, there's a lot of really tricky things kind of ahead for them. There are some positives, though. I mean, you know, like, I think Oliver Blanc has had a really strong year. Denver Barkie has had a really, just a ridiculous year for London this year. Massimo Rizzo has been one of the top players in college hockey. You still have to get him under contract if you want to.

So there's a lot of different things. There's a lot of different things that are still going well for this team and this franchise. So, you know, I think that that in the end is positive. But yeah, to Corey's point, like, you're not going to materially change the trajectory or rebuild. And still, there's years ahead. There really are. There's going to be years ahead and you're going to need more guys to develop. But obviously, a lot of unexpected losses to the system this year will,

impact things going forward. Really quick, each of you, would you rather be Philly or Pittsburgh, starting with Chris? Oh, Philly, for sure. Corey? I think the answer should be Philly, but like if I'm Pittsburgh

and you know you're going to have, you're probably going to have a top 10 pick this year, presuming you keep the pick. Like I almost wonder if like, I'd rather have Crosby Malkin and see if I could,

and I know you can't trade him, yada, but see what I could flip them for theoretically kind of thing and see what I could turn that rebuild into with Yeager, with Pickering, and whoever you pick this summer. But I think Philadelphia just has a little bit more. They have some young players.

Are they great young players? What's Frost going to be? What's Ken York going to be? What's Bobby Brink and Tyson Force are going to be? Still a lot of two-beated Charmer, but they just need to have more youth there, even with their middle-aged guys. There's some more there, so probably Philly.

Okay. All right, that's going to do it for us. Great show today, guys. And thank you all for listening to this episode of The Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. You can, of course, catch more of Chris over at Flow Hockey and on his podcast talking Hockey Sense. And right now, you can get a one-year subscription to The Athletic for $2 a month when you visit theathletic.com slash hockey show. We'll talk to you soon.