The Athletic Hockey Show - Macklin Celebrini tops Pronman’s latest U23 rankings

Episode Date: January 16, 2026

It’s no surprise that San Jose Sharks center Macklin Celebrini, a potential Hart Trophy candidate this season, lead’s Corey’s comprehensive list of the best under-23 NHL players and prospects, but that doesn’t mean the guys don’t have any disagreements where other players landed. Check out today’s episode to hear all the debates, questions, and self-congratulations as the guys deep dive into the latest U23 rankings.Hosts: Max Bultman, Corey Pronman, and Scott WheelerWith: FloHockey’s Chris PetersExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Chris FlanneryGot a question? Ask it here: t.co/fYieuQEg14Watch full episodes on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowJoin our Discord Server: https://discord.gg/VTm9VjkFSubscribe to The Athletic: https://theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show. Hey, everybody, Max Boltman here alongside the athletics, Corey Pranman, Scott Wheeler, and Flow Hockey's Chris Peters for another episode of the Athletic Hockey Show. Prospect series, a fun episode, guys, one of our favorites that we do every year. It's Corey's mid-season update to his under 23 player ranking. Peter's is rubbing his hands already. Well, that's why, because this is the day that we get to do a thorough fisking of Corey's list. So let's start here at the very top. You got an unsurprising trio, I would say.

Macklin-Cellibrini, Connor Bedard, Leo Carlson. Scott, though, you've got an issue right off the hop. Yeah, honestly, my biggest gripe on Corey's list was Matthew Schaefer at number four. And more than Matthew Schaefer at number four, Matthew Schaefer not in the elite NHL player tier projection. I think if he's not that already, he's close, he's 18 years old. And I think the sky's the limit for Matthew Schaefer. I think we're looking at a player who's going to win Norris trophies in this league, or at least potentially contend for them with the Kail McCars and the Quinn Hughes in the next few years here.

And then my other gripe with it was the above average skating grade. That was sort of flipping through all the grades. That was the one of all of the top players that kind of floored me a little. I think if you were to poll NHL skating coaches, who were the five or ten most impressive skaters in the NHL today, Matthew Schaefer is probably unanimously or close to unanimously in that conversation. So I just, that one surprised me. I'm fine with Schaefer at 4 behind Celebrini Carlson and Bedard, but I think he belongs in the elite tier.

And I think the skating is, is world class. Yeah, honestly, if you just watch the first half of his NHL season and just watch that player, I'd agree with you. he probably belongs right there with Carlson, as, you know, in terms of what I've seen in the NHL this year, he's been spectacular in the first half of the season. And he was right on the precipice of me of being elevated into that elite tier. My hesitation at the end just came down to body of work,

which which Schaefer has been very impressive what he has played, but really hasn't played much hockey in the last year. He's only played half a season in the NHL. some people may remember that Aaron Echblad in his 18-year, for example, came about flying in the NHL. He put up very similar numbers to what Schaefer did in the first half of this season, and then, you know, kind of levels off a little bit as time went on. And I think Schaefer's a more talented player than Ekblad,

better skater, more puck game. So that's kind of where I fell a little bit. It's like, I just want to get a little bit more data. Even if it's on a full season of data. Like I just wanted a little bit more before I said, like, he's in the same group as like a badard, for example. I'm not quite there yet, but I don't think it's unreasonable. Like if we were having like this collective ranking together and the three of you decided

like this is where we're going, I'd be like, yeah, that's fine. He's an outstanding player having an excellent rookie season and you see all the traits and the character that compete in his game. And I think it's reasonable, but I just couldn't quite get there yet. That is probably a good opportunity, Corey, to kind of clarify one portion of this list, right? is that it is projecting based, and certainly there's a whole lot of good to project with Matthew Schaefer. But you're looking at not so much who's had the best first half, not so much who's proven the most yet. You're looking three, four, five years down the line here.

Yeah, I'm looking at who'd I want in my NHL organization for the next decade plus. I'm looking at a guy who I think will have the most impactful pro careers. That is the objective of this list. It's why there will be players on there who have played 200 NHL games, and there will be players out there who played zero at HL games. And it's funny. One of the most common grips I get with this kind of exercise is, how can you compare guys in the league to guys who are outside the league?

And I'm like, well, NHL teams have to do this. I mean, you know, when the Quinn Hughes trade happened, you know, Zeev Boyan had barely played in the NHL. Liam Ogren had barely played in the NHL. But that's part of the exercise. You evaluate talent and sometimes there's projection. Sometimes there's less projection. But at the end of the day, you have to assess the value of the player

based on your evaluation of their traits and their production. Yeah. All right. So Matthew Schaefer is at four. Five is Logan Cooley, six Wyatt Johnson. Then there's a tier break. Seven, Yerai Slavkovsky, eight Ivan Demidov, nine Will Smith, tier break. And then Dylan Genther is at top the next group.

And Chris Peters, anything I said there resonate with you? Yeah. I don't know how many years we've had the Kooley, Slavkovsky. And to a lesser extent over time, Shane Wright. debate. But I win. So what I did this list, so he's, what was Chris trying to say, that he had, you know, he's been a coolly as the best player in his draft class advocate for years.

And it looks quite, since halfway through his draft year. Yeah. And it's been a very reasonable take for a long time. It's funny, though, when I made this list, it was like, I finalized it, I think, like, right during the world juniors. And since then, Slavkovsky's been on, like, a tear of late. and I don't think you should change your opinion based on a couple of games,

but I thought it was really close. I mean, I basically have thought it's been close between those two for years, essentially. I know Chris thinks it's not close. That's fine. He could be wrong about that. Well, I mean, it's closer. I'd say it's closer than I used to think.

Yeah, for sure. Anyway, but I still think it's really close, and it's just gotten even closer since I published it or since I put together the evaluation. You know, two very different players, Cooley, the elite play driving, elite speed and compete, centerman. Slavikoski's really covered. to his own as a powerful winger who's, I don't know if the offense in his game is ever going to be like truly, truly elite, but there's like a lot of offense there. I mean, Montreal's offense

is just rolling right now. All those young kids are scoring and he's been a big part of that. And I think it's between those two guys. And it might be between those two guys for years. They might flip flop as the years go on. But right now, Cooley, just because he's a center, I would get the slide edge to him. Yeah. And honestly, like, you know, it is very close. And I think that the fact is, is that, you know, when you're making kind of these determinations, you know, we're going to get plenty right, plenty wrong over time. And as we are doing these U23 lists, they're kind of living documents. It's a snapshot in time of where that player's projection is. The thing that I would say that, you know, and I was pleased to see that, you know, Corey had elevated Cooley is, I think what we've seen from Logan Cooley at the NHL level is actually exceeds what I thought he would be early on. I didn't think it was necessarily that strong of a draft year. You know, I didn't think that even though I had Cooley number one, that he wasn't, you know, like I didn't feel super elated or confident about that.

Like it was, but what I think he has become is a really strong all-around player. He is continually, you know, upping the competitive drive that I think, you know, it never really was a concern for me. But how was it going to translate at the NHL level? I think we've seen that. I think he's very much, you know, we talked about him in the Olympic discussion at the time very reasonably. So I just think he's a tremendous player. And so is Slavkovsky. Like I'm being more joky when I'm saying like I win because, you know what?

It could change. And we've done these lists years. Corey, how many times have we done redrafts where we redrafted a guy and then all of a sudden we're like, actually, either we were right or we were, you know, even after doing the redraft. And that's going to be the interesting kind of thing to follow over the years. Yeah, you look at the Fords in the 23 draft, for example, you know, Will Smith, Will Carlson, and Fantilli, Muttie, Mitzchkopf, that had order has been something we've debated for years.

I think we're going to continue to debate it as time goes by. I mean, you know, I think, remember Carlson versus Fantili was so contentious for years, even once in the summer, when I put Carlson over Fantili. And now it's like, the conversation is more like, well, where does Fantili fit with Will Smith right now? Is Montefi and Mitchcoff even in this conversation? anymore.

I think this whole panel was Montefay Mitchkoff lovers for years, and he's been awful this season. So I think these are all continuously evolving debates. Well, let's go to Mitchcoff right now, then, because he's at number 20 on your list, still very high. He's still in that tier that puts him on the bubble of a top line player and an NHL All-Star. But to your point, as you see some of the other guys from the top of that draft class really hit kind of supernova, Mitchcoves probably taking a step backward this season. Yeah, and I think, listen, we have discussed Mitchkov, like I said, for years. We know what he is and what he's not.

He is super skilled. He is super intelligent. When the puck's on his stick in the offensive zone, you love him. When he's on the power play, you love him. But there are things about his game that will frustrate you and has frustrated now several coaches. He's not a great skater. He's not super hard to play against. He's small.

I don't think he's perimeter. I think for a small guy, he gets to the inside at the NHL level well enough. But his effort level doesn't, you know, get you overly excited. and I still think it's still only a guy who's a couple of years removed from being drafted. He had a really good rookie year in the NHL, so he doesn't lack track record. He scored in the KHL.

He scored everywhere he's gone. I think he's going to score still, though he's had a really tough first half year. I think he's going to bounce back. He's going to put up plenty of numbers. But I think with Mitchkov, what you're worrying is not whether the offense is going to be there and be there in big numbers,

is it going to be special enough to compensate for some of the headaches you're going to get along the way. And I think at the end of the day, ultimately it will be mostly good enough, but I don't know if I think his first half this year has started to beg more questions that kind of the questions we had in his draft year

of like, is he just such a special, unique player that you would prefer to have him over a play driving centerman or a great two-way defenseman or something along those lines? I think it's begged more debate, at least right now. It's kind of where he went. It's kind of where he went, though. We talk about those five, but he went seven, right?

So this isn't, I don't think when we're redrafting it, we have to sort of reassess him with those five. We have to reassess him relative to where he went. Now, I'd still take him over David Reinbacker all day, every day. But I think it speaks to the concerns that have existed since before the draft, including about his fitness level and his weight and what that was going to look like, which I think plagued him early on this season. and they've spoken obviously about, maybe spoken about a little bit too much in Philadelphia because it took on a life of its own in the first month of the season there in terms of his usage and coaching staff talking about it and that kind of a thing. But he's, I tend to still think that it, what we've seen at lower levels and even last year

is so high end in terms of the offensive IQ that he's still going to be like when we redraft, if we redraft it today, we're maybe having a bit of a different conversation, but when we redraft it 10, 10 years from now, I still think we're going to be talking about Matt Faye as one of the premium players in this class. And I think at some point in his career, he's going to have that 80, 90, 95 point season here. I agree with you regarding Ryanbacher. Is he clearly ahead of Simashev, though, who went one spot, one spot ahead of him? I know Simashev hasn't stuck in the league this year, but when he went down in the American League, I mean, he's been ripping it apart for the last month, and he's like six, five, and he could skate and he plays hard, and he looks like he's got real

offense in his game. I have Mishkov ahead of Simishev, but the gap for me was gigantic. two years ago. And I would say it's like razor thin right now. I wouldn't say it's razor thin for me. Like I'm still taking, taking Matvey, but it probably has, to your point,

it was also gigantic for me and it is probably shrunk. And there was probably a drop off from Michkov to Ryan Leonard at the time of that draft. And now Leonard's a couple spots ahead of Mitchcov. I wanted to go to this most recent draft, Corey,

and Scott talked about Schaefer right off the top. But the one that was interesting to me is I expected to see Anton Frundell's name a whole lot earlier than at number 44. And granted, when you're talking about basically five draft classes worth of players here, that number can be a little misleading. But for a guy who I thought in a pretty good world juniors is at a pretty solid first half

in the SHL, talk me through Frundell and how you placed him at 44. I think it's been interesting to follow Frundel because I think while you look at his numbers in the world juniors and at the SHL, they all look promising. but like I thought in the world juniors did Scott, Chris, either of you think he had a good medal round? Did either you like really notice him in the big games? I thought he was fine.

I mean, he wasn't one of their best players though. Yeah, yeah, that's how I feel. Like in the SHL, he's had some really big games and he's been like healthy scratched at times too, right?

I think that's kind of been the issue of Frondell over the years is there's been like this track record of inconsistency where like he has some incredible stretches of heights and then you don't really, notice him. I think there's sometimes you question his playmaking at times and his shots elite, and he scores a lot of goals as he has in the SHL and at the World Juniors this year. And he's competitive. He's physical. I do want at the end of the day if he's an elite play driver. Tough evaluation. I can easily see me being way off on this in a year from now. If he goes back,

I think he's probably going to sign coming to North America, he could be really good right away. Maybe he won't be. We'll see. But that was one of my tougher evaluations. Scott, Chris, be curious if you think I'm way off here. On top of... Go ahead, Scott. On top of the playmaking, I wonder a little bit about the pace as well. Like, he can get moving when he's got ahead of steam, but the little short races in the offensive zone when he's at a standstill

and he can look a little clunky out there at times. So I do wonder if he's the size and the detail and the shot are all real, but is that enough to be a truly high-end, impactful player in the NHL? And is he a set, like we still haven't seen him play center, despite the fact that we all keep listing him as a center. He hasn't played center in three years, basically, including with the national team. He's been almost exclusively a winger, both with his club team and with the national team. Yeah, it's going to be interesting to watch. I think he is a very difficult player to evaluate because when you do see those high end moments, they're at such a level that you're just like, I mean, he's got a chance to be really special.

and but I do think that, you know, the best players are the ones that are doing it consistently and the guys that are doing. And it's interesting because the Blackhawks have a few guys like this now. Like Artie Levshanov is very much in the, you know, hey, the high end looks great, but it's not super consistent. Um, you know, I think we've seen Oliver Moore go in and out of it. We've seen Frank Nasar going and out of it. You know, like there's, to a lesser extent, Nazar, but, you know, some of these other guys. And so, you know, I do think for me, you know, I, you know, I do think for me, you know, I I'm still very high on Frundel. I think the upside for him. And, you know, if I were to, if this were my ranking, he would be higher on my list, mainly because I think that the upside is to such a degree that it would put him over some of the players that he's behind. But it's one of those things where you can completely understand the argument

because he is a tough eval, because you don't get that consistency. I thought at the world juniors, it was interesting, you know, he was named the best forward of the tournament, did not make the media all-star team. you know, kind of an interesting pick for the directorate, which has to vote on it before the gold medal game. But either way.

He did make the media all-star team, by the way. Did he make the media all-star team? Oh, okay, never mind. He shouldn't have. I don't believe he made any of our three ballots. It's actually just that you personally are a hater is what's going on. Yeah, yeah. So he wasn't on my ballot.

But anyway. And he had a great tournament. I don't mean to just. He played really well. He was one of the five. the sixth best forwards, I thought there. I thought there was a big group you could have gone either way from how you arranged them. He also had, like, he had some eight, nine shot, eight nine shot games in that.

Yeah, he was, he was, he was, he was, I just felt like when the, when the chips were down, Stenberg and Bjork were the guys, they leaned on. Yeah. And that is, that's a distinction between this player. Like Mason McTavish had an amazing world juniors, but I just look at the two profiles, and I don't see that much difference in Mason McTavish, who you got at 16. and Frondell at 44. I think with McTavish,

I like that there's a, I think there's a little bit more jam there. And I think, I thought also, well, he's also clearly a top two lines center in the NHL. I think that's a question with Frontel right now. And I think,

um, I just, I see a little bit more offense there. But like I said, I could be wrong here. Like I said, if Frontel keeps this up and carries it over to the next year, I might revisit this one.

But it's a very tough eval, because I feel like it's, he's very much a Jekyll and hot. player, where if you see the great moments, you're like, whoa, like, you could be special. And then then the moments where you're, you're, you're looking for him, you can be very frustrating. You wonder if there's anything more than like a middle six forward at the end of the day. Chris, anything from the 25 draft class to stand out to you on this list?

Yeah, I mean, you know, and I, I said this to Corey, too, like, Mesa has been one of the toughest players for me to rally behind. And I, I'm not, I'm not entirely sure why at all times. Like I, my live viewings of him, and this could just be my life, you know, when I'm seeing him, I've never walked away from a game thinking that is a special player. I have certainly seen him on video do special things. I have certainly seen him in moments do, do special things. special things and in the totality of his O HL career.

He is a player where I am always seemingly left wanting more. And so, you know, I thought, you know, and I told Corey, I said, I think he's a little too high, you know, in, in this, in this one. And so, but, but again, it's very early. And I think these, these 20, these 20, 5 guys like Frundel, there's a lot, there's a long runway for this. And it's going to be interesting to watch the Frundel Mesa. kind of back and forth.

Obviously, Corey has Mesa much higher at this point than Frundel. I don't think it's as big of a gap, and I probably would have had Mesa lower on my own list. But to me, you know, I just, he's one of those players that, similar to Frundel, there's a lot of tough e-vals in there. I'm never blown away. I'm always left wanting more. That's just kind of been my experience with the player.

I don't know. Corey Howe is yours different, I guess. Well, Max, I want to go to you for this because I feel like you have a good recollection of these kind of things. Wasn't it when we did our collective draft list in the spring last year? Wasn't I the one arguing that Schaefer and Misa should not be in the same group? Wasn't I outvoted by the panel here on that front? I believe that was the case. I don't remember if a super vote had to be involved or not, but that does ring a bell.

Interesting. Anyways, I agree with Chris about how the last I think we've also seen. We'd seen Matthew Schaefer play about five minutes of hockey in the air. Yeah. That's... Anyway, anyway. That was a big part of the conversation. Bygones could be bygones.

It's fine. Anyways. I have the same frustrations with you, Chris Belmisa, in that I wish he would have more of a defining moment at times and times where he really took over games. I don't know if that's ever really been in him from when I've seen him. I think he dominated junior in part because his skating is so good. And he has a really high skill level. And that Saginaw team was just, you know, very talented. And he had a lot of good players to play with.

And he was the best player on that team. But I think it's fair to look at this player and wonder, is he going to be a first line forward? Is he a second line forward? Is he the guy on the team? Is he like the third or fourth best guy on a team? And I think we've actually opened up question now where we thought, like where they drafted him, like,

oh, they've got their top two lines. centers of the future of the sharks and celebrini and Misa. Now he's like, oh, well, maybe Smith's the second line center, although he's been a wing predominantly in the NHL. I think they have options and things they got to play with. And I think Misa's a great player. I mean, you said they are like way apart. I don't think he's that far apart from Frondale on the ultimate list.

I think in terms of like gaps of talent that gets so close that point. Yeah, that's fair. I mean, like I think it's pretty close. Like, yeah. And like, I mean, you, I just victory, like, you know, victory left in you guys. Like, I mean, you could go Hagan's over Mesa, like, honestly. And I wouldn't be offended. Like, I think they're pretty similar as hockey players in terms of the way they play.

Like, I think Hagen's had a very good year. Mark Townes had a very good year. McQueen's had a very good year in college. I think they'd all kind of be in that. They'd all be kind of a group of players there. Well, let's lift the moods of some of the Sharks fans that have heard us poo-pooing Michael Misa and tell them about the rise of Igor Chernishov, their 2024 draft pick. I believe he was a second round or maybe the first pick of the second round, Corey.

And Chernoshov is just on a rocket ship up your list. He's actually one spot ahead of Matveh Michkov now at number 19, tearing up the American Hockey League when he was there this year. Comes up to the NHL. He's producing there too. Yeah, like Chernobyl is one of those players on Saginaw that I was just referencing last year. Him and Misa had a fantastic year together last season.

And I think most people would have watched those two guys and thought, oh, well, Misa is the one driving this in his help in Chernoshev. And then they turned pro and Chernoshev's without Mesa for half a year in the American league. and he was just outstanding. Like all situations player in the American League is a 19-year-old driving play, playing hard, getting to the net, showing legitimate skill and playmaking ability to go with his size and his speed.

Then the sharks get some injuries. He comes up and, you know, he gets to ride shotgun with Celabrini, which, which, you know, is probably one of the cushiest spots in the NHL next to playing with Big David. And he does just a fantastic job with it. And the scoring continues. And it's not just the same. scoring is the way he scores. It's a direct

style of play. It's a toolkit that you know is going to translate. And now this is a guy for now over a year at three different levels. The OHL, HL, HL, NHL, has scored in a significant way and there's just a lot to be excited about with this player.

Maybe I'm being a little over-ambitious here with how high I have him, but to me he looks like a potential top-line winger, a premium prospect. And a guy who's going to be a very essential part of the shark's build going forward to go with Smith and Celebrini and Misa. I think he's not in Celebrini's level, but the rest of those guys, I think he belongs

in that conversation. He can absolutely rip it too. Yes. Yeah. He's got a lot of traits there to work with. And just that's a very fascinating prospect at this point. There's probably a few of the lesser, widely known Russian players on this list that we could talk about.

Like Chernishab's at 19, but you've also got Roman Cancerov at 23. Igor Surin was a first round pit. but maybe not as prominent as a Mitch Kov or a Demadov. He's at 34. Alexander Jarovsky is at 39. Again, another guy ahead of Anton Frundel, who was a top three pick in the last draft, Corey. I know I just threw a bunch of names at you all at once,

but some of these Russians are really moving up your list. I think it speaks in part to the lack of information we get on these players at times. Like if these guys were all playing on national teams and all the major tournaments, I think we would have better data on them. And maybe some of these movements wouldn't be as, severe, but you mentioned those guys like cancer rob. I think he's only, what, 21 years old right now. I think you can argue he's the best player in the KHL this season.

Like he's been that good. He's been the best player on the best team with Magnitigorskin. He's not that big, but great skater, great compete, great skill, scores lots of goals, like fantastic players. Surin's one of the best players on Locomotive was a top team in the league, and he's a teenager. Went to go play with a senior Russian team. He played fine, super physical. play driving centerman who plays playing wing mostly as a pro but uh he's got offense a lot there

to like i mean shirovsky's having a absolutely monster year you're talking about him versus frondell i think we would probably all agree the khls better than the shhl as a league like shorosky's production is notably ahead of frondels this year and that's half a season of date as it doesn't that doesn't prove anything but i think shorosky what shorovsky's doing right now is is super impressive the skills i remember watching him in the summer at the Milstein's camp and thinking, oh, he's got a lot of skill. Like, it's really impressive. How is this going to translate?

And, and, like, it's translate. And, like, what, it's like a wow level skill now for me. Like, he's got top six caliber tools to go with his skating and decent enough size and compete level. Yeah. So it's been really fascinating to follow developing these Russians. And, um, and I think the biggest risers from across the board for me have been Russians. And I think that's, that might speak to the kind of new world. order we're in right now where, you know, you even see what, you know, with Demadov,

who went five in his draft. He's probably, you know, undisputably the second best player in his draft at the current moment. Like, it's, it's going to be, I wonder how things develop on that front going forward. Now, you know, there's some good Russians in the next draft. I don't know there's high-end ones. I think what's really interesting is going to next year when you have Nazar Privalov at the top of next year's draft is, does someone have, have the nuts to take him one to one. If we feel like he belongs in that conversation talent-wise, do people try to start finding ways to go over there

to go watch these players live more consistently? Because it feels like teams, particularly in Montreal, have been getting value out of picking Russians. For those of you listening on audio, Scott reached over and literally patted himself on the back, on Demadov. So these are the kind of things you miss when you do not subscribe and watch on YouTube,

which we would strongly encourage you to do. One of the things I think is interesting in general, and this ties into those three players you just mentioned, Corey, because a lot of them are assigned to these three teams. Montreal, Chicago, and Utah come out of this looking pretty good here. Utah does not have one of those guys. They do have Demetri Simashev, who's another high-level Russian San Jose, the other one as well. These are the Rebuild Scott that come out of this looking really promising. And you have Montreal and you've got under 23, you've got Slavkovsky, Demetov, Hudson, and now Zeravsky's in this mix. San Jose, you add Chernishov to the Celebrini, Dickinson, Smith, Misa, CORE, you know, Chicago, yeah, okay, Frendel and Leveshinov

maybe aren't going nuclear, but you have the rise of Nazar, now you have Cancerov. Like, these are some of the most exciting, these are probably the most exciting rebuilds in the league. Yeah, I mean, and going through your list of Montreal guys there, you didn't even mention the kid who just led the world juniors in scoring in Michael Hage, right? That's right. There's a lot coming. Chicago's going to be picking high again this year. San Jose, Utah and Montreal, not quite as high, but we're quite likely going to see Chicago picking top three again.

So there's reason for optimism in all of those places. We've seen flashes even from, I'm not sure what he'll ultimately be at the NHL level, but even from Nick Lardis. And we haven't even talked about Caleb de Nway and Tijiganla and some of the sort of pieces of the puzzle that they have in Utah. So those groups, all four of those groups. And San Jose in particular. Like Montreal's in the in the sort of race to lead the Atlantic division here. But San Jose in particular just feels like there's this swell of okay, we could we could have something special here. Like maybe this is the next Chicago Blackhawks, right?

Like maybe this is the next Los Angeles Kings. Like it feels like like San Jose just because of maybe just because of celebrini. But it feels like San Jose's got even. more reason to be optimism about a Stanley Cup future. I think Montreal, Chicago, Utah, of those teams have a have a pathway to get there, but I think there's still a lot that would have to happen for each of them. With San Jose, I'm not sure you're really missing the core pieces at this stage. So, especially if Chernishov sort of joins that group, as Corey was talking about, and becomes like a true, true front of the lineup player for them, suddenly you look at what's

coming in San Jose. And I think that's the team that maybe has the clearest path. Like the road in front of them is probably most open. They need at least one more D, I think. Yep. Yeah. On paper, this team doesn't look like really good right now. Like, it's, it's, like, Celabrini is just completely carrying and willing this team to a playoff spot right now. Yeah. And that, and that is, you need the cornerstone. You need the nuclear. Like, he is the whole core. The core is a guy. It's one guy. It's incredible. When they decide to spend in free agency, too,

that is going to be the sales pitch, right? Like, it's going to be, come play with this kid and let's, let's do this. And they'll want to. They'll definitely want to. I mean, that, that to me, like, Celebrini is, is at a level that we did not. Like, I, I think collectively, we did not see how high this was going to go. Um, I talked about, you know, like maybe his ceiling, his offensive ceiling wasn't as high as as Badaards? What if it's higher? You know, like, and what if everything about his game is, is higher? And the, the Crosby comparisons will only persist now, and they only look more apt as he continues to do what he's doing. If you have one player like that, you, you obviously, you can't do it alone with one player, but he is one of the best central pieces. You, you know, you put him in

that Crosby McDavid category. It hasn't worked out for Edmonton, but I think you're looking at, you know, Scott had mentioned the Blackhawks and you think about the Taves, Cain, that they were able to build around. That is what we're, I do agree. I think that that's what we're seeing in San Jose, and then they're just going to continue going. And then you have some of those found opportunities like a Chernoshov. You know, you see some of these other guys. You go out and you get Escarov, who was potentially going to be, you know, that goalie for them. I'm fascinated by the sharks, and I have to watch them because of one guy. And then they have these other pieces that make sense.

So you can't undersell Celebrini. You can't. He's the better, or oversell him. Sorry. You can't oversell Celebrini. He is like the next era of this league. It's amazing to watch. I do wonder if they tail off a little bit in the second half here, whether a Chase Reed or an Albert Smiths or Carson Carls makes a lot of sense there as well.

Dickinson has been okay this year, but Dickinson has some flaws in his game as well. And there's no guarantee that Sam becomes that true number one for them. So that's to Max's point, that's the piece that they have to find somewhere. Is that player even in this draft? I love Verhof, Smiths, Carl's, Reed. I don't know if any of them are that player either to be perfectly honest. But it's good to have, I'd rather have two really good guys than just one really good guy. You don't need to have a star number 1D to win.

There's no set criteria. It helps a lot. You don't, you know, Florida didn't have that the last two years. It'll be interesting where they pick. Washington didn't really have it, like as good as John Carlson is and has been. they may not have access to read Carl Smith's Verhof, right? They may be picking in the early teens. And what could be interesting is, are they in a perfect spot to take a shot on a Zavio Vilnav

or a little bit later on like a Ryan Lynn kind of thing and go for the power play type? I'd be really surprised if my career took one of those two guys. He does not like that kind of player. All right. They did take Kagnoni. In the fifth round. That was later. Yeah, much later.

One difference, going back to that kind of comparison of those three or four rebuilds, one difference in, and you could say this about Utah as well, but Montreal compared to San Jose and Chicago, like I think we know for sure that it's Ascarov and it's Knight in those two places. We're getting an indication that it may be Jacob Fowler in Montreal, but Scott, like, you know, you had a gripe with that. Like, Fowler's not on this list. Yeah, Corey has six goalies on his list and goleys are always hard to slot in an exercise like this side by side. forward, especially in that U-23 category, where they just aren't quite as developed. But Fowler for me is, like, if I'm doing a top 10 goalie ranking today, he's not outside of my top six, and he might be one, two, three. In fact, he would be one, two, three for me.

I think he's been good already at a very young age. He's 21. He's been good in the NHL this year. He's been good in the HL. He was obviously sensational, arguably the best goalie in college hockey across his two years in college hockey. before that in the USA, like there's just, there's a five or six year track record now that is pretty unimpeachable with Jacob Fowler. And I think he's got a chance to be the starter that

Montreal needs him to be and to be the goalie of the future there. So that I was a little bit surprised that Fowler wasn't one of the goleys on the list. Yeah, for me, the issue is not that he hasn't done really well at lower levels. I worry for a guy who doesn't have elite athletic traits, you know, he's whatever he's below average size goalie. He's not an elite side-to-side athleticism type of goalie. I worry on the projection there a little bit. I tend to, we've tended to disagree over the years on guys like Dustin Wolf and Devon Levi and how quickly to elevate those guys to the highest levels in the NHL. And like I was never a big Levi guy. I thought the contract Calgary gave Wolf was ridiculous. But I thought the same thing about Jeremy Swayman. And

Swayman's kind of in the one that I kind of see Fowler potentially being if he hits like that kind of goalie. Like, and that's kind of I'm, I can see it. Like, I could even see myself get there by the end of the year if he continues at a high level in the NHL. But that's just kind of like similar to the Schaefer argument we started the show with. I just want a little bit more data at this level before I get him there. Because at the moment, I still think like the profile is more like a tandem backup guy when it's all said and done. just the tools. Don't just jump out to me as like a true, like, number one starting goal in the NHL.

I just don't see the data argument against him. Like how it would be impossible at his age to have better data for us to back in opinion. Like you've got Marcus Gibloff and guys. I agree with that. He's been prolific at lower levels. That's not the argument. For me, it's just like how those tools are going to translate into the NHL or a minor question for me. what about his hockey sense core

it's excellent yeah that's that's that that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's the separator for him yeah he's excellent he got excellent hockey since but like so does wolf so does levi um i mean he's three three inches and 25 pounds heavier than those guys he's he's a much bigger goalie he's six two two oh five or whatever like he's a much is he actually six two though

i think i mean that's his listing uh i know 6-1, 6-2, I mean, whatever. Yeah, yeah. It does matter. He's better. He's better than Levi. He's better than Levi.

Like, there's, that's not what I'm trying to. I'm just made like the undersized goal. I'm trying to think of anybody else. Like, I think Swayman's closer in terms of the tools, the athletic profile. Like, that's probably a little bit more on the nose for me there. So, yeah, like I said, I'm on the fence. Like, I could go either way. Like, I don't think what you're saying is unreasonable at all.

got, I probably wouldn't get him like, towards like a top 50 prospect in hockey or something like that. But like he's a good player. I like, he wouldn't offend me if you wanted to put him somewhere in this range. The only other one I wanted to raise, and we've been at this at Corey for a while here, but we talked about Jorovsky and some of those sort of skill guys in the 30s and 40s on this list. And the one skill guy that I felt belonged higher, the sort of the deeper, among the deeper cuts, once you got into the thick of it on the list is still Gabe Pro. And I know we've talked about him a lot, but I don't see much of a difference between the

profile of Alexander Sharovsky at 39 and Gabe Perot, with all that Gabe has accomplished at the college level, with what he's shown us at the HL level this year. And I think sometimes we knock, and I know you've been lower on Perot all along, but I think sometimes we knock guys when they don't immediately have that sort of NHL impact that we're looking for. But I think that could well happen with Sharovsky or one of those guys who's in one of those sort of 5-11, 6-foot skill wingers who's in that sort of 30s, 40s, 50s range, which is where I would have Perot on my list.

I think we could be seeing that we could see a very similar path play out for Zorowski when he comes over here where he's a productive guy in the H.L and he doesn't immediately land with Montreal at the NHL level. And I just think that there's, there are a lot of lines to draw between Jorovsky and Perot. So I was pretty surprised at the 80, 80 placement gap. Like, that's not one of those ones where it's a 10 or 20 placement gap for me. Like, I would have, I'm still a big believer in Gabe, and I think he's been outstanding in Hartford whenever I've watched him and has been their only real play creator on that team.

Jorowski's both taller and faster than Perot, though, isn't he? Jerovsky's like 160, 170 pounds. So I wouldn't get bogged down in a 5-11 versus 6 feet. I think he's like 6-1, isn't he? I don't think so. Anyways, but I think the skating is definitely a differentiator there. And like, like, for me, that's the feed are definitely like, like, Gap's, because it's a slow 5-11 forward.

Like, that's, to me, it's going to be the big hindrance and that's my concern. Like, I debated cutting him all together. Like, see, I can, I think Gabe, like, I'm still very confident that Gabe becomes a 60, 70 point winger in the NHL, just the way he thinks the game, the skill level, the power play. I think Gabe's going to be a high-end player in the league still. Well, the Rangers could use that. They are in some trouble right now. Any other teams based on looking around this list, Scott, Chris, that you have, and even

Corey, you could offer one here too. Like, it teams that when you look at this list, you go, oh, boy, I don't know if this is going to go well for them in the near future here. Ottawa would be one. And we talked about the excitement around Montreal and Chicago and Utah, but I'm worried about the Flyers and what the Flyers rebuild looks like. Porter Martone's awesome. Matt Faye's still going to be awesome.

They've used two top 12 picks on two kids who might top out as third-line centers for them. If, and that's if Jack Nesbitt is even a center in the league, which I'm not convinced at this stage that Jack Nesbitt does become a center in the league, that if they miss on both Nesb, and that's not, if Luchenko and Nesb both become NHL players, that's obviously positive. but if neither of those guys becomes an actually impactful move the needle type, they are still so, so, so far away. And I know they're getting better results at the NHL level this year. And frankly, last year, they kind of hung around the playoff race longer than maybe people realized.

But they feel almost as far away as any team in the league to me right now. Like them and the Canucks, just they have so, so, so far to go. so I'm worried about the future in Philadelphia. I'd say Winnipeg is another one that have some serious concerns on right now. There's like, you know, Yeager hasn't really done much down there in the American League. I like Bumidi, but you're hoping he's probably like a four or five defense been when it's all said and done. Salmon's the same thing. Barlow's been awful.

And now you're looking at this team that just signed a bunch of big money contracts to a lot of guys and it's not going well. and they're all getting up there in age. And they might have a high pick this year. Maybe it's McKenna or Stenberger, Verhoeff, or Smiths or whoever else. And it helps inject some much-needed high-end talent to this organization. But I think that's another one you're looking at the direction here and saying, okay, well, what's the five-year trajectory in Winnipever?

I mentioned Ottawa earlier. They don't have much young talent other than the Acomchuk, but at least they have young talent on the team. I can see them turn it around. Their expected goals, metrics are decent right now in the NHL. like there's more of a path there. Like with Winnipeg, they're not playing well. They don't have much talent coming up.

I think that's a concern right there. I echo Scott's concerns on Philly. I think there's some, I think there's a path to them to turn around, but I think the timeline might be longer than fans thought. Yeah. Has any team ever gone from winning the president's trophy to finishing dead last in the NHL?

That is good trivia. I don't know the answer to that question, but it has been stark. I would guess the answer is. no, but Winnipeg might make some history. Which is crazy. I don't think it'll stay that bad. I think Helibok will elevate them probably for the worst, for the long-term direction.

I think you'll elevate them just outside, like the top, the bottom five. But it has been a rough go there. All right. So the article is ranking the best NHL players and prospects under 23. You can read that on the Athletic. That is going to do it for us today. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Fletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. you can of course catch more of Chris over at Flow Hockey and on his podcast called up.

We'll talk to you soon.