The Athletic Hockey Show - Man arrested for the death of Adam Johnson, NHL considers a change in 3 on 3 OT rules and Bill Guerin's Wild still not at the top of their game

Episode Date: November 14, 2023

Julian McKenzie and Mark Lazerus discuss the news out of Britain where an arrest has been made involving the death of Adam Johnson.The guys look ahead to who is eligible to join the Hockey Hall of Fame in 2024, the NHL's interest in tweaking the rules of 3 on 3 overtime and Hockey Canada appealing the ruling into the 2018 assault by World Junior players in London Ontario.Bill Guerin the GM of the Minnesota Wild joins Mike Russo to talk about the Global series in Sweden involving the Red Wings, Senators, Maple Leafs and his Wild, and Daniel Nugent-Bowman stops by to discuss the Oilers getting Kris Knoblauch his first NHL coaching win.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is The Athletic Hockey Show. Welcome to The Athletic Hockey Show. I'm Julian McKenzie, alongside Mark Lazarus. Ian Mendez, is not here. He's in Sweden. We'll have him back later this week. We have a bunch of different topics that we're going to get to on today's show. We're going to talk about, we're going to have Daniel Nugenton Bowman, who is our Eminton Oilers writer, talk about the latest with the Emmeton Oilers. We're going to have a conversation between Mike Russo and Minnesota Wild GM and Karen.

Karen, we'll talk about some potential changes for three on three in overtime in the NHL, but we begin with a developing story. A man has been arrested in connection to the on-ice death of Adam Johnson. You may remember this story from a couple weeks ago, Adam Johnson, a former NHLer, playing in England, unfortunately losing his life after a skate rose up and caught him in the neck. A man has since been arrested on suspicion of manslaughter in connection to the incident. Mark, a little bit of a tough one for us to start here, but I was just like to tell your thoughts on the fact that we're at this point with this story where an arrest has been

made. It should be pointed out we have not seen any charges as of yet. It is just an arrest to this point. Yeah, I think anyone who had the unfortunate experience of watching that video of Adam, of the skate cut of Adam Johnson probably saw this coming. I mean, it looked really bad and we don't know if there was this skate clipping another skate, which is why his leg went up so high. And I mean, we don't know how this is going to play out. But it's just a reminder that what happens on the ice isn't necessarily, you know, excluded from the law of the land, right? I mean, we saw this with Todd Bertuzi when he had his horrible hit on Steve Moore.

Criminal trials or criminal charges were filed against him. There was a civil lawsuit that I believe was settled out of court. It's one of those things where there is, the question is, is there an assumed risk when you step onto a playing field, when you step onto a basketball court, when you step onto a football field, when you step onto the ice. This is a violent game. And there is, there is absolutely assumed risk. If you take a slap shot to the face and, you know, you suffer serious injury because of it,

is the person who took that shot liable? These are the questions Jeff to ask, this is, you know, I don't think anybody thinks there was intent here, but is there liability in keeping control of, of your, you know, the dangerous weapons that are attached to the bottom of your feet in hockey. That's the issue that that's at play here. And the fact that this is happening in England, I don't know what the law is there. I honestly don't know how they perceive incidents like this. So it's going to be fascinating to watch this play out because you can see both sides of it pretty easily.

Yeah, my whole thing, I unfortunately ended up seeing the video surface on social media a couple weeks ago. And I just can't help but just feel for Johnson's family and also just note how much of a freak accident. it was. We don't normally see, I mean, to get to a point where escape will make an impact like that, there have been other stories like with what happened with Richard Zednik a couple of years ago, or Clint Malarcha a couple of decades earlier. This seems like it's in the same vein where it's just a freak accident and an unfortunate situation. At least that's how I see it. I mean, I'm not in law enforcement, but I just have a hard time just reconciling with the fact that we're at this point,

considering that at least to my eyes, this is a freak accident. This is not something that was intentional. But of course, again, this is just my opinion. Well, yeah, but that's why I'm assuming, again, not a legal expert here, dumb hockey writer guy here, but, you know, manslaughter is not the same thing as murder one either. You know, the question is, are you at all times responsible for the life-threatening weapons on the souls of your feet when you play hockey?

If you get checked into the boards and your feet fly up in the air and someone gets clipped in the face, are you responsible for that? These are the questions that need to be answered by the legal process here. And, you know, I talked to Haley Wickenheiser right after the incident happened. And she's an emergency position and one of the greatest hockey players who ever lived. So maybe as, you know, excuse me, as qualified as anybody to talk on this. And she took issue with the word freak accident with that term because she kept seeing it. She said, these are not freak accidents.

They happen all the time. They just don't always end in tragedy. You know, Jason Dickinson took one on the collarbone last year. And he thought for a minute that it was his jugular vein, basically. And he got lucky. There's a, you know, you can go back and find a clip. I think it was in 2009 where Ben Eager's skate caught Adam Burrish in the throat, like right across the throat.

And if it was, you know, two millimeters deeper, who knows what happens. There are incidents all the time. Jason Dickinson skate hit Jacob Lalka in the face, caught him in the eye, almost, you know, narrowly avoided taking guy's eye out. That was the season. That was just a couple of weeks. That was like a week before Adam Johnson in, uh, incident. So these, it's not that rare. It's just, you know, guys get lucky a lot. Let's face it.

Guys are getting away, you know, they're, they're fortunate to get away from these incidents with, you know, their livelihood, let alone their lives. And, you know, I don't know what the accountability is. If you throw, if you're a baseball pitcher and you hit a guy in the head and, you know, seriously injure or, or even kill him, are you responsible? Because you are the one who threw that ball? Even if it's, even if there's an assumed risk, I don't think these guys necessarily sign waivers to play in the NHL, right? Like when you go to the trampoline park, like there's an assumed risk,

but I don't think it's written in paper that they give away any rights they have to their own safety. I'm curious too, if it gets to a point where there could be charges or if it does get further, if this ends up being a case of precedent, in this case, since this is happening in the United Kingdom, I mean, that's their own standard. I don't expect that to be applicable for North American law,

but just this is going to be a really interesting situation with regards to this unfortunate situation, obviously for Adam Johnson's family. And the fact that we've reached this point is it's, I mean, obviously we're going to keep talking about it here on the athletic hockey show and all throughout the network. But this is just something that I'm still very surprised at this point, to be honest with you. And you have to wonder about, you know, the man who's arrested. We're not using his name because, you know, UK police did not use his name.

But, you know, the, the, obviously, he's not the victim here, obviously. But he has got a heavy burden that he'll be dealing with for the rest of his life here, regardless of the legal ramifications, regardless of any lawsuits that come. He's already been the subject of all kinds of abuse online, like really ugly, hateful, horrible stuff. And, you know, for the rest of his career, he's going to be tied to this. And there is absolutely a mental toll, an emotional toll that's going to be taken on him. His career obviously is going to be affected.

And now he's got it, now he's dealing with this. And, you know, hey, it happened. And like I said, you have to be responsible for yourself. He made a reckless play regardless of the intent. But he'll be paying it for it for a long time now. Yeah, you're absolutely right on that one. A bit of a rough one for us to start on the athletic hockey show. But I'm glad that we were able to spend some time and talk about this.

And of course, we will continue to follow it as it develops with regards to the arrestment. in connection to the death of Adam Johnson by an unfortunate skate accident. There's a few other topics I would like to see us get through before we get to, let's see we get to at least one or two before we bring on Daniel Nugent Bowman, who covers the Emerson Oilers for us here at the Athletic. This past weekend, we just had the Hockey Hall of Fame induction celebrations, some candidates getting in. I don't have the full list in front of me,

But some really big names, obviously. Carolyn will let the big women's hockey superstar, Henrik Lundquist, Pierre Lacroix, who won Stanley Cells with the Colorado Affilanch in there. Ken Hitchcock, legendary NHL coach as well, part of that group, Mike Vernon, Tom Barrasso as well, part of that long list. It's really a hall of very good, my friend.

My God, the names that we're letting you feel about it. I really do. I hate being that guy and like just stomping on people's moments. but Tom Barrasso, really? Mike Vernon, really? And Eric Du Hocchal slapped me around for saying that. But I just, you know, Pierre Turgeon, I'm biased. I grew up an Islander's fan.

I loved Pierre Turgeon as a kid. Of course, you should get into my mind. But I don't understand how we're getting some of these guys in, but Alex McGilney's not in. You know, Steve Armer's not in. Natalie Darwitz is not. There's two slots for women every year, and we can't fill them after years of not putting women in the Hall of Fame.

Like, it's absolutely inexcusable. that Jennifer Botterl and Natalie Darwitz and so many others are not in the Hall of Fame yet. Like, look, the Hall of Fame committee is like the secret cabal of like 15 people in a room somewhere. And I just wish there were more transparency because this is not, this is not yielding the Hall of Fame that I want to see personally. We're lowering the bar for some and we're raising the bar for others. It doesn't make any sense to me.

Okay. Well, clearly your standards are. I put Yager in already. He's playing like 10 games a year because he owns the team. and he's to sell tickets. Just put him in already. All right. Mark Lazarus clearly fired up to start off our athletic hockey show here on a Tuesday here.

God, say. Let me just focus on Yer Moryi Yager for a second. There is still that three-year weight period that will start, essentially, when Yarmu Yager eventually retires. I agree with you. I think at this point, he's not going to play an NHL game. Not coming back to the league, yeah. What are we doing? Like, why are we at a point where we're reading with this guy?

I should be just putting him in. I was out in Prague for the Blackhawks opener a few years ago in 2019, and I took a side trip up to Cladno, and I actually spent some time with Yager at that rink. And, you know, he's the most harried, busiest man I've ever seen. Like, he's literally running the team. Like, he doesn't just own the team. He actually runs the team.

He has, like, no staff at all. He had to run back to Prague that day to pick up a visa for one of his players. Like, he doesn't even have, like, an assistant to run, you know, menial task errands for him. and he's playing because he has no choice. It doesn't really seem like he wants to play. He has to play because it sells tickets. He's trying to keep the team alive.

He's doing it for his own business, and he's doing it for the town because there's not a whole lot there besides cladno in the town, the hockey team. It's just ridiculous not to put him in the whole thing. The guy's not coming back to the NHL. Even Yarmory Yager's not coming back to 52. Make an exception.

They made exception for Gretzky. You can make an exception for Yager. He's one of the 10 greatest players who ever lived. This is stupid. So what would you say to people who would hear that and say, well, of course, they waived it for Wayne, for Wayne Gretzky is the greatest player who ever lived. And even though Wing, even though Yager is one of the greatest players who ever lived,

he's technically still not on that level of a Wayne Gretzky. Like you're technically lowering the bar in a weird way. When was the last time he was in the NHL? It's been long enough. Nobody cares that he had a Czech extra leaguea, screwing around with a way to invest on during practices. Like, it's a great story. He belongs in the NFL.

the Hall of Fame. He's not... For what it's worth, I agree with you. I'm just playing devil's advocate. He's still technically, like, able to play. Yes. He is technically ineligible for the Hall of Fame still. He technically correct. Is the best kind of correct. I know. But come on, man. Like, this is, this has gone far enough. He's been away from the league long enough. Do we have to wait until he's 65? Because Yarmir Yager might freaking play until he's 65 years old. Okay. I want to take advantage of this energy that you got here. And I want to go through Eric Hugh Hachachek's column. Who has the best chance at the Hockey Hall of Fame in 2024? examining the best candidates.

There's a couple names that are listed here that I would love to get your opinions on. I would love to start with one name on another show I was debating with a couple of the colleagues. Pecoreen, who has a career 917 career safe percentage, 369 career wins, which if memory serves, is eight wins more than Kerry Price, who I'm sure will be considered for the Hockey Hall of Fame once his time. If you're doing gold medals for Canada, you get in. no matter what. That's all you guys care about. I feel like there's some shade with the fact that you don't appreciate the fact that Canada,

at least for the time being, it's still superior occupying country due to the Americans. I have to say, you got to throw your shade somewhere else, man. There's a lot of anger coming from you. I'm just saying, you guys put too much stock into the international stuff sometimes. Anyway, speaking of international stuff, Pec-Arenna has a silver medal at the 2014 World Championships, four-time All-Star. Is Peck Arena in your mind a hockey hall of fame? I have another name after this, but I'm curious about it.

Here's how I look at it. Pecorina, I love Pecoranine. He was a great guy to deal with. He's a phenomenal goalie. He should not be in the Hall of Fame. But if you're going to let guys like Mike Vernon and Tom Barrasso in, then yeah, Pecoran. This is the problem.

When the baseball Hall of Fame let like Bill Mazoroski in, like it was all bets were off. Like, all right, we're just letting in anyone with a 262 average and, you know, pretty good glove in there. Like, we've lowered the bar so far now in the hockey Hall of Fame, as a producer Jeff points out, it's not the NHL Hall of Fame. It's the hockey Hall of Fame. I get it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we've lowered the bar so much now that I don't know how you leave a peccarina out. But then again, how was Alex McGilley not in there? How was Steve Larmer not in there? How was Jennifer Botter? There's so little consistency in what we're doing here. It just seems to be that if like four dudes in Canada love you a lot, you're going to get into the Hall of Fame.

Like that's what it feels like right now. Keep throwing shade on King of Canada. What is this? I'm just saying it's just I don't understand what the rationale is. There's so little transparency as to how, you know, we've done the Shadow Hall of Fame that, that Eric Du Hocchuk, who was actually on the committee for years, one of the most respected guys in the world, like one of the great hockey historians ever, like the nicest guy in the world. We all love hat. He kind of runs this shadow committee that we do. And even we can't come up with a consistent, consistent names, right?

like we got darwitz in potterillin a couple of years ago i tried to get steve larmer in i think he's a no-brainer and yet you got zero votes two straight years so like we all have our own standards and the problem is it's it's it's inconsistently apply that's all pick a lot well start pick a bar and stick it there uh we are going to move on to daniel nougan bobbin who covers the evans and oilers for us here at the athletic he's standing by waiting to hop in with us we got a ton of questions we got to ask him about the evans and orlers and these last few days, a lot of changes, a lot to talk about.

Why, what happened? Yeah, what happened, D&B? Thanks so much for kicking it with Mark and myself. Do we have it? I don't know. What happened? You tell me, I feel like, I feel like so much has happened

that I can't even wrap my head around it, really. Where do you want to start? Okay, I mean, we have to start with Jay Woodcroft. We have to get to the point where he loses the game with the Emmons and Oilers as head coach against the San Jose Sharps. I think, you know what? Let's start at that night because so many people were looking at that game. Even last week, Ian Mendez and I were saying,

you got to circle that game as like the game of the week. And if the Oilers lose, chaos ensues. At the final horn, what did you think about Jay Woodcroft's future as head coach at that point? I thought he would be gone the next day, quite honestly. I was very surprised that he wasn't. But by the way that Ken Holland and management, which really goes down to Jeff Jackson, I'm quite confident he's the one who truly made this move.

The way they explained it is it takes time to get a new guy in there. So clearly they had made the decision at that point to fire Jay Woodcroft and his right-hand man, James Manson, former NFL defenseman. You know, when it comes down to that game, I don't recall, I mean, aside from a big playoff loss or, you know, season-ending playoff loss, I don't recall the mood in a dressing room being so despondent, so confused.

I mean, all the players that we spoke to after that game struggled to find answers to pretty seemingly basic questions. It was so perplexing to them that they were in this state, this situation, you know, with two wins through their first 12 games. So I don't think the whole situation, you know, falls on the feet of Jay Woodcroft. If you look at the underlying numbers, they had a league worse, say, percentage and we're shooting, they're shooting percentage with second worst in the league at five on five. I mean, what coach can outdo those types of numbers?

Now, obviously, you know, it's the system changes that Woodcroft put in place. I think he's got to bear some of the responsibility here for sure. but if the others had done nothing the rest of the way, logic dictates that they would be at a pretty decent spot, just given that the natural course of action would take its place and these numbers would improve. They always, given that they're in a win-now scenario with Connor McDavid and Leon Drysettle, in their prime and at the end of their contract,

didn't have the ability to wait any longer, and ultimately the moose were made. What do you make of Ken Holland saying he consulted leaders, and then Jeff Jackson saying, no, we didn't do that? And then Connor McDavid saying, no, they didn't do that. Is that just a sign that Ken Holland is not in charge here? Yes.

And that he's losing power by the day. That's one thing. Ken Holland is a hockey all-famed general manager. One, two, no, three Stanley Cups as a general manager. Another one is an assistant general manager. They're letting him right off into the sunset here. His contract expired at the end of June. And there's almost no way he will.

will be back as general manager for next season. Now, both things can be true. Ken Holland is one of the most kind of in the room general managers of any in the league. He's on almost every road trip. He does consult with his players. And I've reported, you know,

like he talked a lot to Connor McDavid. Connor McDavid was somebody that said, hey, you know, can we keep Warren Fogle around? Here's why. Holland ultimately listened to him. Connor McDavid wanted.

to Connor Brown on this team, his junior teammate as somebody who could be a low-cost option, you know, in the top six and be a veteran guy that can play two ways. Connor Brown's on this team. But is Ken Holland going to McDavid and the leadership group and saying, should we be firing a coach? I'm not as sure about that. Ken Holland likes to gauge the temperature of the team, but I don't think he's necessarily making every decision or every important decision based on that. But Jeff, Jeff Jackson goes another way.

And I think both things can be true. Ken Holland can talk to the players, but maybe not about the key critical aspects of a team. And Jeff Jackson is the one making the call, and he didn't do that. Is it not weird that a player of Connors caliber of such importance to the organization doesn't get a say on who the next coach could be or if Jay Woodcroft should be the guy to go? and I mean of all people for them to hire in his place, like you mentioned all the connections that he's had with players who have been at his team,

including Connor Brown, who he played with an Erie, to have his Erie Otter's coach come in and for him to not have a say in him to be blindsided. Is that not strange? I would say, like, there's a couple different things to play here, right? Does Connor McDavid not have any idea that things are going badly?

Of course he does. Of course, coaching change could come. He is a guy that I think will play, as I put in a piece late last night, a piece of, you know, he's a, he's a guy that would play for, you know, a three-eyed, ring-faced alien if it, if that could get the Oilers, you know, in a better position, or in a better position to be a Stanley Cup, true Stanley Cup contender. So I don't think he cares necessarily who the coach was.

He doesn't like the narrative and the perspective out there that he's the one calling the shots. And I don't think he is. I mean, he's going to have a say, like I said. He's going to be, you know, in the loop to some degree, maybe not necessarily about this. But he's going to have a say in what happens to some degree in the organization. He's not the one calling the final shot. There's a huge coincidence, obviously, that Chris Knoblock was his junior coach.

That was more than eight seasons ago. Chris Knoblock and Jeff Jackson also have a very, very good relationship, dating back to, obviously, to Erie. And Jeff Jackson has a kind of reception. respect for him and look at the way Jeff Jackson basically got him a signature who's become rather a signature NHL client,

at least when he was an agent in Alex de Brinkett. So there was a lot of ties there that go beyond Connor McDavid and to a less extent Connor Brown. He's also here as a former eriator that played under Jeff excuse me, but to say McDavid doesn't have a say

or have any idea of what's going on around here. It's simply not true. But the fact that he, to say that he's calling the shot, I think is overblown and quite frankly not true either. So there's a bit of a gray area. But Connor McDavid is clearly what happens with this Oilers team. So how did,

how did Chris Knoblock fix Connor McDavid so fast that he was, he looked good last night. It was like magic. That old eerie magic, I guess. No. I mean, Connor McDavid. Like it's Connor McDavid.

get it come out. And I know, like, I had a chance to talk with him on the road last Friday. He says he's not hurt. Just the way he's playing, like, it's clear that he's hadn't than 100%. So he got hurt there a few weeks ago and came back ahead of the Heritage Classic. I mean, that was his first goal in nine games. For a guy that scored 64 last year that was a runaway, Rott Ross, you know, winner, you know, again, is something that's almost unfathed. the way he's played. I mean, it's not just the fact that he hasn't scored. I mean, his expected goals rate is one of the worst on the team.

And you don't expect that to continue with Connor McDavid. So whether it was Chris Knoblock behind the bench last night, still had been Jay Woodcroft or it had been me. I think there would have been a way to get Conner McDavid going in a relatively quick fashion. And it got going last night. I mean, the other one, we talked a lot about Connor McDavid. But Leon Dreisled, that might have been his best game, aside from, you know, cross-checking somebody in the back of the leg and getting a fine.

But he had a goal in three assists. That was somebody who also wasn't going. That was he scored last night. It was a second goal in 11 games. So, you know, I mentioned huge droughts for two guys that are perennial, or at least dry-sidels case, a perennial 50-goal guy in McDavid who scored 60 last year. The owners are going to have, based on their history, are going to have a lot of trouble winning hockey games without those two producing.

and then that was the case early in the year. DNB, appreciate you hanging out with Mark and myself on the Athletic Hockey Show. Looking forward to your coverage on the Emmington Oilers as it goes. I'm sure we will be talking about them again at some point. Thanks so much, man. Of course. I think there'll be more to write about it. Oh, I think so.

Daniel Nudgeon Bowman of the athletic. Thanks again, man. You know, it's funny covering a team that's just in a total disarray like that. Like you come in, I was just talking to D&N. be yesterday. It's like you come into the season with all these great story ideas that you're looking forward to you. You were thinking about all summer long that I'm going to get to all these great features you're going to write. And then it just becomes a total shit show right off the bat. And that's all you can write about. And then the new coach comes in. That's all you can

write about for a while. It'll be like mid-January before he can actually do his job for he wants to. We've all been there. I feel I can sympathize with that. Obviously, no, the same level. But yeah, with Calgary Flames, obviously they're going through what they're going through. I have all these different ideas I want to do. I probably not until January at this point. knows. I'm just messing around here. But yeah, just couldn't imagine being in Alberta. I mean, yes, I'm in Alberta, but I couldn't imagine being in Emerson right now. I'm not in Alberta at this moment, but could you imagine being an Oilers fan? Could you imagine having all of these hopes thinking, okay, this is the year, you're going to put it all together, you're in the cup final, and you are at

such a disadvantage to start with everything that can go wrong. It just does. Dude, I'm a Mets fan. I can very much imagine that. that's true. I'm so sorry. My deepest condolences on your fandom. My deepest condolences to everyone. We will get to, in a couple of minutes, a really fascinating conversation between Mike Rousseau and Bill Garrett, the Minnesota Wild GM. Got a couple of minutes before we get there.

I know we kind of talked about the global series games, all these teams playing in Sweden. I mean, I don't think it's going to really move the needle that much for me. Like, I'm just curious about what you think about it, Loss. It's one of those things where they do it, not for the fans back home. They do it for the fans over there. But I don't, like, Sweden's a hockey crazy country to begin with. Is that the place you need to quote unquote grow the game? Are there Swedish hockey fans unaware of the NHL?

Like, it feels like it's throwing them a bone, which is great. I don't know how much this costs the league. Probably a fair bit. I know it costs our company a lot of money to send a lot of writers over there. It's fun. It's cool. There's no harm in it. I don't know how much it really does move the needle, though.

I think when you have it, when you hold games in other countries that aren't hockey hotbeds, that's when things get interesting. Like the Blackhawks had a preseason game in Berlin. You know, Germany is a growing hockey country, but it's not like a hockey-obsessed culture. So that was kind of cool to do that. The Australia thing was sort of ridiculous, but also really cool. It's tough to sell preseason hockey.

It would be great if you can get like actual NHL games over there. But it's a nice thing to do. The players, you know, from that country appreciate it. They get excited to go over there. The fans over there will appreciate it. Is it going to make the league of much money? Is it going to make a difference in the size of the fan base globally? Probably not.

But it's a cool thing to do. It's a way to break up the monotony. I'm ambivalent about it. Yeah, I'm kind of in that same boat. I mean, for me at this point is it, It's if something fascinating happens, a lot of Leif's fans are wondering if that is going to be the time when the Leifes decide to announce an extension for William Neelander. He gets to play in his home country. And then all of a sudden he gets this new contract as he continues this point streak.

That would be wild too. That point streak that he's on, I think it's at 15 games now. That continues over for however many games he get to play out in Sweden. That'd be a fun story to do as well. But yeah, if the players were in it, I'd care a little bit more. but to your point, Mark, you are absolutely right. It's definitely something that if you're in the market or your teams are there, you definitely care about a little bit more.

It just kind of sucks that like we're at that point where because of just the nature of these games, it just feels so regional, whether it's a global series game or winter classic stuff or the Heritage Classic. Like, I don't know, like other sports seem to find a way to have these one-off events and everyone's able to like care about them. But for the NHL, it's just. Well, that's the NHL, right? That's what it is, right?

I always say Chicago is a great Blackhawks town, but it's not really a hockey town. Like, once the Blackhawks are eliminated from playoff competition, like when they were in the playoffs, they got eliminated, nobody was watching the Stanley Cup final afterwards. It's not like Buffalo or Minnesota. There's very few American places where you are a NHL fan.

There are huge hockey fans everywhere in the United States and all across North America, but it's very tribal. It's very regional. It's a regional city. You are a fan of the San Jose Sharks. You don't watch. a Bruins Capitals game on, you know, on prime time. That's why the ratings are so poor.

That's why they, that's why the legal, TNT and ESPN and NBC sports before them always wanted Pittsburgh and Chicago and Buffalo and New York and Boston and D.C. All these big fan bases. They wanted those games on not because they attracted people from outside of those cities, but because it attracted those cities and they just come in with a higher floor. I mean, you're getting 400,000 people watching some of these games. This is not a national sport in the United States. at least. And Canada doesn't have the kind of population to make, you know, to counter that.

So it's always a regional niche sport that way. And there are exceptions. Again, Minnesota, Boston, Buffalo, great hockey areas. But for the most part, you're a fan of your team. And while anyone will watch a, you know, the Bills play, who the Bills play last yesterday? I already forgot. They played the Denver Broncos. Yes. Right. And lost. You'll watch. Yeah, yeah. You'll watch Bill's Broncos because it's the NFL and everybody watches every NFL game, people don't do that with hockey. Very well said. And with that, we're going to transition over to our conversation.

Well, Mike Russo's conversation with Minnesota Wild GM, Bill Garron. Sit back and enjoy everybody. We'll be joined by Bill Garron, the Wild General Manager, four-time Stanley Cup champion, two as a player, kind of bookended your career. And two is an assistant GM of the Pittsburgh. Penguins. In a global series time, Detroit Red Rings, Toronto, Maple Leaf, Ottawa, Senators, Minnesota Wild, going over to Sweden, two games against the Maple East and Ottawa Senators. How long was this in the worst? Was this something that, because originally I heard

that you guys were maybe even in the works for Australia, but next thing you know, it was Sweden. Yeah, I knew we were in kind of the mix for one of them. But I'm happy at this one, With all the Swedish players that we have, I think it'll be really exciting. And Zuki, too, you know, close to Norway. So I think it'll be really exciting. And, yeah, I think these are fun. They help the game. They help the league.

They help our brand. But, you know, we just want to make sure that we don't forget that we're going over for two. This is not an exhibition. These are two regular season games and we need the points. Yeah, they always say Eric Snack. says that Swedes are a lot like Minnesotans. Everybody in Minnesota thinks Minnesota is the best state in the country. And everybody in Sweden thinks it's the best country in the world. And now they'll get a chance to show off their country. It's a fantastic country. I mean, I love traveling there for, you know, all the

scouting trips, you know, the U-18s or U-20s, whatever they have. The World Junior's there this year, too. I'm excited for that. It's a beautiful country. Fantastic people. Stockholm's a great city. great food. And yeah, it's just a really fun place. And the Wild will be playing the Maple Leafs and the senators on the weekend. Toughest Swede you've ever played against? Oh, man.

Toughest, I... You know, I just... I always go to Peter Forsberg. I mean, he was so skilled and smart and he was tough. He was mean. Yeah. Like, he could hit, too. And if he got mad, he was coming.

You know, there were guys like Golf Samuelson, Shell Samuelson back in the day. They were really tough too, but, you know, Nick Lindstrom, obviously, a great defenseman. He was tough to play against because he was more, like, mentally tough on you because he wouldn't lay a hand on you, but you feel beaten down after a game. He was just so good, like, so smart.

So, I mean, there's so many great Swedish players over the years. Although you got the last laugh on Nick Ledstrom in 2009. Yeah. He had this shot on Flurry, the amazing save. Yeah. Yeah. And 95. It is funny, that's true too. It is funny that, you know,

like Fordsberg just has this mystique in Sweden. Like Erickson Eck was telling me that Forzberg played in the Matt Zucrello charity game this summer and they were teammates and he was scared to death to even say hello to him. And Foresberg is actually a part owner of his agent.

He still didn't want to go up to him and say hello. Yeah. Well, I'm sure they're, you know, he probably idolized him growing up. And yeah, he's got a presence about him, that's for sure. Let's talk a little bit about the wild bill. As you mentioned, this is not an exhibition going over there. These are two very important games. You guys have been treading water to start this season.

What do you make right now of the team? You know what? That's, I guess, a frustrating thing is, like, they're, I think, for a good stretch, don't think we were competing the way we really needed to compete. And I still don't think we're at the top of our game. You know, against, just recently against the Rangers, you know, we, we didn't play the first period. Yeah. You know, and then we played a great second. Then we were okay in the third, like inconsistent during games. Buffalo, we put together a great effort, but we didn't, we couldn't score. We didn't get, we needed a couple of key saves, and we didn't get it. So we just need to flat out be a

lot better. And I think it starts with our compete level. Yeah. Obviously, you start off the season poorly just because Spirit Spurgeon's out of the lineup. Your captain, one of your top two best defensemen, most like, not arguably, unarguably. He's back in the lineup now, and it did seem like that Buffalo game that you guys played the other day. I mean, that was his dominant performance he could play without winning. And he played a big part in that. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, he's, you know, he's a a key ingredient in our team. I mean, we need him. It was tough to start the year without him, but we got him back now. He's, you know, Spurge is one of those guys. He's just got a, he's got an elite hockey brain, you know, and he was ready to go. You know, he made a big impact. Like you said,

we did everything we could that night. The guys played great. It was just one of those nights that we didn't get what we deserve. You know, they're, hey, look, there are going to be other nights, too, where we don't play well and we win. Right. So it all kind of evens out. but I would just really like to see a more consistent, you know, high level of competitiveness. And it's in us. And the guys, you know, they care so much and they work so hard, but it's got to get to another level. With Carol Caprice, I mean, we've seen the best of him two years in a row, to 40 goals seasons.

It just seems like right now, even though he's getting pretty much points every night, he's not getting to that interior as much. We even saw it in the last minute the other night. He was playing Playmaker rather than being the guy. that's trying to score the goal. How do you get him back to being the impactful player that you expect? Yeah, I think you made a good point. He's been a little too much on the perimeter, especially in, you know, in crunch time.

And we don't want him distributing the puck. We want him shooting it in the net. Yeah. You know, he's gotten a few goals lately, which is good. But still, his game has always been on the inside. And that's where we need him to get. And, you know, I think, you know, nobody knows that more. than him. And, you know, but I have seen better play of him lately and hopefully he just continues

to get better. Same with Boldie. I mean, you need him to be a difference maker. You're paying him the big bucks. And he just, again, feels like he's not being, you know, at times a little too cute and all that. Exactly it. And, you know, I think a lot of times when players struggle, I mean, I remember this from my playing days. When you're struggling, you try to make things happen and it almost snowballs on you. And it just, it gets worse and worse. The best thing you can do is simplify your game. I mean, really dumb it down and just get to work and get your nose dirty. And right now, Matt, you know what? He's not playing his best hockey. I know it'll come out sooner or later, but he's just got to, you know, not be so hard on himself and not try to be so

perfect. Gus has been talking about hard on himself, has been really hard on himself lately talking to him. You know, it just feels like he can't get traction. There are games where he's playing really well, but at the end of the night, you know, not getting the victories. How do you get him back to the consistent guy that we saw all of last season? Yeah, honestly, I think it's two things. It's him continuing to work on his game and make sure that he's sharp. Like, you know, he played pretty well the other night. But it's also, it's also the team. You know, we need to be better defensively in front of, in front of him. We're giving up way too many great. grade eight scoring chances. I don't care if you got Ken Dryden in that or, you know, or anybody.

Like, if you're giving up too many grade A chances, you're not going to give your goalie the best chance to play well. So, you know, again, we don't want to be in too hard on himself. Just continue to work at his game and keep getting better. Let's talk a little bit about Mark Andre Flurray. He's four wins from tying Patrick Watt, five from passing him for second all time. This is somebody that grew up idolizing both Waugh and Brodora. We've talked to Brodor for a story that we're working on, talking to a bunch of other players.

You've known Mark Andre for well. How deserved is this and how fun is it to see him? It's awesome. You know what? He is just, you know, outside of being the great human that he is, and everybody always talks about that, he's a hell of a goalie. He's been an amazing goalie for a long, long time in this league.

You know what? He's got the stats. He's got the wins. He's got the championships. You know, he's done it all. And he's done it all with, like, such class. And, you know, it's just, you just can't say enough good things about Mark Andre Fleury. A couple more minutes with you, Billy.

We've started to see the fruits of your labor with prospects. Marco Rousey's stepping in, playing really well this season. Brock Faber, the big trade you made with Kevin Fiala, having a great start to his season. Yes, for Walsh, Donovan, the Miners, who's in Sweden with. you right now. It just feels like we're, you know, who's in Vina up and Europe and Ogrin and all these guys are going to be coming over that we're starting in the next couple of years to see these guys step into the Minnesota Wild. Yeah, definitely. And a lot of guys are having good years. It's nice to see that, you know, these guys are finally, you know, like you said, guys like

Marcos, guys like Faber, they're really having an impact on our big team. You know, Esper's time will come. He's playing great down there. It's, you know, it's, you know, it, It's really nice to see. We're going to have more and more guys coming in through the pipeline in these next few years to come. Does it even hard for you to be patient? Like, you know, I'm sure you want to see Walshatt in this lineup. And you'd love to see O'Rourke. We've seen Damon Hunt play well.

Yeah, Damon Hunt played great, actually, for us. You know what? Yeah, you really want to see them in the lineup. But it's just like, you know, I think Marco has been a good lesson for me, for, you know, all our hockey ops guys, coaches. Like, we just really need to be patient. and, you know, Marco's having a great year right now. He's an NHL player, like an impactful player on our team now, which he couldn't be a year ago.

So I think the more patient we can be, the better off. Our prospects will be and our team will be. What's your biggest surprise that you've seen so far in the West this year? I mean, Vancouver one that shocks you coming out of the gate, or maybe not because I know that you have a lot of respect for Rick Tockett. Yeah, I mean, I love Talk. He's a great guy, great coach. but you know what they have so much talent

I just think it's just they don't shock me like they're so talented you know I think I probably Anaheim I mean Anaheim's had some really good stretches they're really you know kind of seems like they've turned the corner you know when you talk about young players

being effective like they've got a ton so you know they're probably one of the biggest surprises well Billy as always appreciated looking forward to this trip in Sweden and we'll see you over there maybe we'll share some Swedish meatballs or something That sounds good. Thanks.

Maybe they'll share some Swedish meatballs. Michael Rousseau, great chat with Minnesota Wilde GM Bill Guerin. We have two topics that we're going to get to before the end of our show today. One of them is another developing story with regards to hockey Canada. We're going to just as we get the facts right on this one, we're going to put that to aside for now. We're going to talk about another NHL story with regards to the possible change of three on. three rules in overtime. I love three on three.

I used to be a fan of the shootout. I just think three on three is just way better. But now we're at a point where GMs have discussed the idea of changing rules to limit teams from doing that loopback that they continually do in the offensive zone and then going back out, then going back in on three on three. There's potential solutions could be a bit of a law with crossing the red line or the blue long, you can't go back out, or having a shot clock, which I have mentioned previously before, just got to say, if we get to a point where we're changing these three-on-three rules,

why do I have a weird feeling that's just going to mess up three-on-three? Well, you say you love three-on-three. I loved three-on-three before coaches ruined it by being coaches. Once, after a couple of years, once they figured out that possession was everything, and transition was everything, everybody got so conservative. And now every time you see a three-on-three overtime, the first tour, three minutes is just the most boring thing you ever saw. And then there's a turnover and then there's some frenetic action that we,

that we're longing for. I mean, look, three on three is not hockey. You know, we always, we always complain about the shootout not being hockey. Well, neither is three on three. That's not how hockey's supposed to be played. It's already a gimmick. It's just a cool gimmick that we all like. So if you're going to make it a gimmick,

gimmick it up even worse just to goose it a little bit. Let's have a shot clock. Let's have the red line be a firm line that you can't, no back court violations, so to speak. Like, let's do whatever you can to get it back to what it was supposed to be, which is psychotically crazy end-to-end action. How is three on three and the format of it not hockey? I don't know how familiar you are with the sport, but there's usually five skaters and a goalie on each side. Okay, but like, like, just power plays exist.

Teams play with men short for due to penalties and all that. How often do you three on three in actual regulation hockey? You don't. point is, is that we have seen teams play with fewer than five men. What is this idea that is not hockey all of a sudden? In fact, when you see that phonetic action, you could argue it's among the best form of the sport we see. I love it.

I'm not complaining about it, but I'm saying, you know, we don't, the beauty of three on three hockey is we don't have to worry about the purity of it. We've already ripped that bandaid off by going to three on three and overtime. So we don't have to worry about, you know, it's sacred and we can't touch it. We can do whatever we want to. we can keep adjusting it until it gets better. That's all I'm saying. I wanted to get back to what it's supposed to be,

which is fan-friendly, player-friendly, goalie, unfriendly hockey. It's gotten so bad. I mean, it's all about just creating a turnover and scoring in transition. Now, that's all has become. The Blackhawks, when they had Derek King as coach, he'd put Alex to Brinket out there with Patrick Kane. He'd have to brinket, who's not a center, take the face off,

basically intentionally losing the face off, because you had a better chance of scoring with Kane in transition, than you did with possession. Like, it's, it's, it's, it's gotten so bad in terms of how difficult it is to, to wrestle the puck away from anybody. So let's gimmick it up more and make it more fun. Would you rather a back court violation rule or a shot clock in three on three? Porque no los dos.

I mean, why not both, right? I mean, let's, let's do it. Like, I like both of those, like, you know, maybe even make it once you're inside the blue line, you can't leave the zone with possession. Okay. Let's really cram it in there. Let's get the action going because all we get is these guys circling back and circling back and circling back and circling back, waiting for the perfect zone entry, waiting for the perfect cross seam pass. I want it to be frenetic.

Like it should be nonstop chaos. And I want it at 10 minutes too. I think the idea that it's just five minutes, you just, and I want it continuous, to be honest with you more than just five or 10 minutes. Like, do you want no whistles? I mean, you need whistles when you can get whispers. But like, don't let it get to a point where we have to go to overtime in order for us to see a winner. We should still have a winner. I don't believe in ties, especially in that sport.

But I think if you have it until somebody wins, someone's going to eventually score. But if you have those rules in where you have a shock lock, I would probably personally just rather a shock lock, but also at the same time, maybe just like you, why not just have both? Anything to make that part of the game, which, again, I think when you see both teams going back and forth, that might be the best form of the sport. you can get. And there's a reason why people complain so much about it going straight to a shootout. Like, we agree. I know we're yelling about it, but we agree. And you talk to any player in the league and they'll all tell you the same thing. Yeah, you know, it's tiring, but I'd still rather have 10 minutes of three on three than go to a shootout. Nobody likes the shootout. Nobody. Yeah. I don't know. It's just like the shootout at the start seemed like a good idea. Like the Merrick Malik,

between the legs is a great moment. We'll remember forever. But I think it's just because of how OT rules are now where it just become, it has just become so much of a buzzkill. Yeah. That has played such a huge role in why the shootout has lost his luster. Yeah. And it's just, you know, you go to the other sports and the baseball is doing things to speed up their extra innings with the ghost runner on second, which I hate that they call it a ghost runner because there's actually a dude there.

But, you know, everyone's gimmicking things up, but they're not going to the length that hockey has gone to. You know, you're not seeing a home run derby to decide a game. You're not seeing a field goal kicking. I mean, NFL overtime is the worst thing in the worst. world. I don't know why they don't just adopt the college model, which is the best. Yes. College football overtime is better than NHL overtime. And I love NHL overtime. But you put them in the NFL, fine, put them at the 40 yard line instead of the 25 and just go from there.

But this is what we're doing now because we don't want ties. We don't want games decided by, you know, stationary things like a shootout. You want to decide it by something at least resembles the sport. And three on three hockey, while not hockey, at least resembles. of the sport of hockey. We're getting in some, a YouTube comment here. I also want 10 minutes. Gary Benman of all people had a good reason why it can't be 10 minutes. They would have to bring the Zamboni back out. Oh, just skating the crappy ice like everyone else in the world does, you prima donnas.

Oh, no. The Zamboni driver has to work overtime. Oh, no. There's not enough hockey related revenue to pay the Zamboni driver for another cut. Oh, no. How is he going to feed his family doing these? extra shifts in overtime. Like, give me a break.

Just play. To do another dry scrape and let them play. Yeah, just hire some of those old hosers, as they used to call them, with the, you just put the water on the ice. Is that where the term comes from? I believe, yes. No kid. I learned something today.

Yeah. And you know what's funny? I learned that in grad school because my, my American prof asked me about these two, like, Canadian characters. I had no idea about Bob and Doug McKenzie. And after that, he explained to me the concept of losers. I thought you're going to say Terrence and Philip from South Park. Oh, no.

I was never a South Park guy for whatever reason. Like, I was just like, that show never, I never gravitated to that show. At its peak, it was almost the Simpsons, almost. I don't know if anything could truly be the Simpsons, Mark. We have one last story we're going to get to. Hockey Canada. This is just coming in over in the last few minutes. Players from Hockey Canada's 2018 World Junior Team have appealed a ruling from an independent educative panel that was launched to investigate and determine national team sanctions.

Of course, this is in relation to the 2018, well, the allegations around that 2018 team involving a group assault. The ruling was made, but with appeal, Hockey Canada says details can't be shared now. Again, this is just coming in under the wire over the last few minutes. hockey Canada, that story we've been following. I think it's the work of Katie Strang as well. If you see on TSN request, Ted has done some work on this as well. Mark, just very quick thoughts on the fact that we're at this point

with the hockey Canada scandal. Look, I know there's a process, and I don't know exactly what that process entails, but it's outrageous that we don't have names yet, right? Like, there are people playing in the NHL right now that may or may not have done something truly abhorrent. And we don't know who they are. And they're getting paid and they're getting cheered. And then there's other players who were not involved who are getting, who are under a cloud of

suspicion just because they were on that 2018 hockey Canada team. This has gone on long enough. You know, every Friday at like 445, I start getting twitchy waiting for the news dump, knowing that I'm going to have to write some kind of thing off at national, from a national perspective, because they're definitely going to try to dump it in the middle of the night as much as they can. But I just, it's, it's really uncomfortable that we know what might be out there and we don't have names yet, that there are people in the NHL that probably don't belong in the NHL. And they are, they are being cheered and revered and praised. And every single player in that team, we're all look at them a little askew, right? We're like wondering, well, what if that's

one of the guys? And that's not fair to them either. We need to know the results. This is a long time now we've been waiting on this. And we need to know results. We need to know names and we need to take action against those names. Very well said. I should mention all players from the 2018 national junior team remain suspended by hockey Canada and are currently ineligible to play, coach, officiate, or volunteer with hockey Canada sanction programs. Obviously, we will have further reporting from Katie Strang and the rest of our athletic team on this story.

And with that, I think that's just about going to do it for our Tuesday edition of the athletic hockey show. A bit of a tighter one, the normal. kind of up and down in terms of some of the topics that we were able to get to today. Very uplifting start and begin, a start and end, wasn't it? Yeah, but hopefully change for the better prevails in some respects. Yeah, Mark, thanks so much for hanging with me yesterday and today. Appreciate this, man.

I'm just here to listen to you pronounce names in French. It's just, it's just the best thing in the world. Is there like a name like you would like for me to pronounce it in French in particular? Oh, wow. It seems to a name are you so much? I don't know them. That's the problem is I Americanized. I'm like a dumbass than I am.

Like an Alexei Lafranian. That was the one yesterday. Like I was like I needed to go get a drink after hearing that. Does that mean my voice is mollifluous? No. Okay, fine. Only Ian Mendez gets to be malefous. Your accent though is impeccable and beautiful.

Merci, Mark Lazarus. By the way, speaking of Ian Mendez. Sean Gentile and Jesse will be in North America with Ian Mendez tomorrow will be in Sweden we will have a show tomorrow back at a regular time

of 2.30 by the way for anyway for those who are still missing Ian Mendez after he missed out on the Monday and the Tuesday episode. Can you imagine tuning in for Ian Mendez and getting me just to letdown

you have his listener? My God. My God, those poor people. I apologize to all of you. I'm so glad. you were able to do that and be so considerate of our audience, Mark. So nice of you to do that. In all seriousness, thank you to everyone who got to listen to us over the last two days.

Thank you for listening to The Athletic Hockey Show. Please follow us on your favorite podcast platform. Leave a rating and review. We would really appreciate it. Follow us on YouTube at YouTube.com slash at the Athletic Hockey Show. We'll be back tomorrow. Peace.