The Athletic Hockey Show - Maple Leafs are on the wrong side of the puck

Episode Date: November 12, 2025

The Maple Leafs have lost three straight in regulation, and with Auston Matthews and Anthony Stolarz out due to injury, they are playing poor defensive hockey with seemingly no end in sight. Gentille, McIndoe and Frankie dive deep into the Leafs’ dysfunction. They take a look at the Nashville Predators’ nightmare season and discuss if Steven Stamkos might get moved before the deadline. Scott Powers joins from Chicago to discuss the resurgent Blackhawks with Sean and Sean and what Connor Bedard has done to change his game in his third season in the NHL.Hosts: Sean Gentille and Sean McIndoeWith: Frankie Corrado and Scott PowersExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Jeff DometWatch full episodes on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowJoin our Discord Server: https://discord.gg/VTm9VjkFSubscribe to The Athletic: https://theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic hockey show. What up, what up? It's the athletic hockey show. Sean Jensili here. To the side of me is Frank Corrado. To the other side of me. Farther to the same side of me, actually, Sean McIndoo. We're talking YouTube terms now, guys.

We're talking about visuals and what have you. Thank you to everybody who subscribed. It's been fun seeing that takeoff. Hope everyone's doing well. Hope everyone's doing better than the Toronto Maple Leafs. We're just going to dump the pucks out today. Let these two boys skate around. Another ugly loss for Toronto.

This one to the Boston Bruins. Fellas, I was perusing the site this morning. The top four Leafs headlines on there. A guide to this year's leaf seasons for Blue Jays fans who are just tuning in now. And you can guess who wrote that? He's on their record right now. With Austin Matthews, Matthews injury, things have gone from bad to worse for the Leafs.

Uh-oh. that sounds bad too. Myrtle, who's to blame for the Maple Leafs Bore start to the 25-26C? Everything's going awesome, right? Right. Today has the feel of a practice. This is for us.

This is us. It's a feel of a practice where there's kind of no rules. The pucks just get dumped on the ice, and it's like, just go have at it. 30 minutes and do whatever you want out there. Because quite honestly, that's what we're, it feels like the Leafs are doing with the way they're playing the game. Just hopping on the ice, seeing what happens.

Maybe we'll win. Maybe we won't. We probably won't. But there's not a lot of like, there's not a lot of detail to their game right now. And that is a scary thing. There's a lot of things not going well for them. And when you wake up in your Toronto, and usually you follow up a slow October with the quote on quote November to remember.

And now this year, it's been. anything but and you wake up today and the only team worse than you in the Eastern Conference is the Buffalo Sabres. I don't know if, I don't know if we have to like significantly adjust our expectations for who the Leafs are or is this just who they are now. But there are so many things going wrong with this group and it's almost like you don't even know where to start, but there's big issues in Toronto. Well, what's like the primary issue McIndo? Like, Like, you just, I'm sure you just had to change what your original plan was on that, on that, on the Leafs column for the laps Jays fan. I wrote that yesterday.

Yeah. During the day. And then as the game was going on, I had to go in and edit it and make it meaner because I'm like, there's no. I had things in there where I'm like, well, I mean, they're, you know, there's still 500. They're not terrible. And I'm like, no, this is, this is going to get me yelled at. So, yeah, it's, I don't even know where to start. Other than, okay, let's say this.

They brought in Craig Barouba. He has a certain system. He clearly wants them to play this system. They made some adjustments to it over the summer to make them more of a defensive team. Playing on the right side of the puck is the catchphrase now. And they're just not doing it. And I don't know if it's because the players can't. I don't know if they don't want to.

I don't know if they're sick of the coach already after one season and 16 games. Or what it is. Maybe the system is broken. Maybe it isn't a fit for the skill. You go down the list. But the point is, right now, every Leafs game, we do two days. of they've got to get it figured out defensively. And then the next game comes around.

They drop the puck. And immediately the other team is getting breakaways and odd man rushes and all of this stuff. And I'm not enough of an X as an O's guy to specifically pinpoint what's going wrong. But I'm enough of a hockey fan to know that something is going very badly wrong here. Because I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to be giving up poor breakaways every period. No, I just like the big. defensive issue for me. Like, this is an X's and O's thing, is how porous they are off the rush.

And if you ask anyone, like, what's the quickest way to generate offense? What's the easiest way to generate offense in the NHL? And anyone will tell you, man, if you could get quick strike stuff off the rush, it is so much easier because once you get, you know, playing in the offensive zone and a team sets up their D zone coverage, it's hard to break through like the different layers. And it's like you have to play, you know, possession. in time before you can break them down, before you can get the shot, get the chance and the rebound, but offense off the rush? You kidding me? In five seconds, I'm going to go from blue line

to opposing hash marks and get a good scoring chance. I'll take that any day of the week. And guess what? Teams are taking that against Toronto right now because they are like the worst rush team against in the league right now. And like for me, this is what it comes down to. You know, DGB, you talked about being on the right side of your check. And that's something that, you know, this Craig Baroube system is. It was the Sheldon Keefe system. It's the Mike Babcock system.

It's every system in the history of hockey is being on the right side and not getting three players trapped in the offensive zone. So you're giving up three on twos and two on ones and eventually breakaways. Like that is, we're talking about the bare minimum that they're not even doing that right now when it comes to negating all these rush chances. But another thing that, like, comes to my own. mind is when you're playing defense on the rush, when you get back into your own zone, around the

blue line, everyone should know what their defined responsibility is as they go towards their own net, meaning we should be able to create, you know, three one-on-ones in three lanes so that we know, okay, if the puck goes here, I can get a stick on it. If it tries to go across us, well, now it's got to go through two sticks and the other guy can get a stick on it. That's not happening. And like other teams defensemen are beating the leaps forwards up the ice consistently and getting chances. And, and so like you watch it and it's a complete mess and it's so easy for teams to generate offense. And it's it's a massive issue for them. It's a massive issue. And that's not like a, I don't know, that's just every team should know what they're doing off

the rush. I'm sorry. Like coach can communicate to you as best as he can. And maybe that's something that's not happening right now. Maybe they don't know their defined roles and responsibilities coming into their own zone. I know I'm long-winded and ranting, but that's the biggest glaring issue right now as far as how they're defending. And here's the other thing, though, is that right now what we're seeing is bad. They're clearly spiraling right now on that side of things. But it wasn't like this is brand new.

We saw a lot of this last year, too. You look at the underlying numbers and all of that. A lot of them weren't great last year in the first year under Craig Baroube. But the difference was they were getting Vezina level goaltending. And that bails you out an awful lot. And they were not getting in that. They were a PDO team last year. To use a phrase that a lot of people don't like.

Yes. They got better results. I won't say better results than they deserve last year because goaltending. is part of hockey. The power play is part of hockey. I mean, this is, there were warning signs on the dashboard last year, but they were able to paper over them by, you know, sometimes your strengths outweigh your weaknesses. And that's, was really the story of last year for this team. And now it's not happening. The power play can't do anything. And the goaltending is not good. And specifically Anthony Stoll, I mean, they, they had the graphic last night on the broadcast, which I thought was

interesting of his numbers before and after he called his teammates out after the, you know, the night that he got run over a bunch of times. I mean, he has not been good. And last night he left the game early, apparently, as we're led to believe now, a minor injury. But who knows, maybe it's something he's been fighting for the last little while. Maybe it's unfair to say he hasn't been good the last bit. Maybe he's been playing through something. Hard to say. but the results just haven't been there. This is what happens when you're not good defensively and you don't have that Vezina level goal tender bailing you out.

It gets ugly. And it's an 884 save percent for Stolaris. He's below zero and goal save over expected. It's not good, man. And listen, he calls out this team that's old news. Like, you know, everyone's kind of talked about that and wrap that up. You didn't like that, though. I didn't like that because let's let's let's let's let's let's let's let's let's let's

let's let's cite to hear that I I didn't like that because first of all there's always a conversation afterwards within the group where the next day everyone's coming to the facility and there's going to be a meeting within the players and even the coaching staff where everyone just says guys we have anything to say to each other we say it in here we're all brothers we're family we're in this together we don't bring you know outside noise into this dressing room so if we have something to say let's all be comfortable having the conversations in here. Who knows? Maybe that happened and he got fed up and he lost himself in the moment and he

said something he shouldn't have. But that, I'm sure he would want to mulligan on that whole situation because now he's added more pressure in a very pressure packed situation. You're the goaltender for the Toronto Maple Leafs. It's enough pressure. But now you add that things aren't going well for the team in front of you and you're playing more than you ever have. Like you don't have any reprieve. You don't get a night off unless it's a back to back because Joseph Waller, not there. That's already enough pressure. But then you're going to put a target on your back from, I don't know, teammates or outside noise. It just, it wasn't smart. It wasn't a calculated move.

And now the numbers tell us that, you know, he struggled before and he's struggling afterwards. And that's, that's an issue. But, you know, one thing, like Anthony Stolars is not wrong about this. He's not wrong that he gets bumped and hit and there's a lot of chaos that happens in his crease. and nothing happens the other way. Like Toronto doesn't get any rebound wax and hacks and second chances. They just don't. Like, and that's something going back to the Keith era that was an issue. Like they made a lot of really pretty plays, man.

Like rush chances, you know, they could get going on the cycle and Marner could hit Matthews for a nice play in the slot. But, you know, it's a goal from 20 feet away. And now that Toronto's this different kind of team, You know, big, heavy, was supposed to be big and heavy and mean, forechecking type of team, they still don't get anything from the gold mouth area. That, that's got to be,

if you're going to be a big, heavy, heavy forechecking team, that's got to be a hallmark of your team. And that's not the case. And that's, you know, that's a big issue too. The scale and the, you know, the measuring sticks might say they're big and heavy, but this is not a big heavy team. And it's sure not a mean team.

And look, this is, it's, it's 2025, it's not 1985. We can't, you know, just go out there and send out the Goon Squad and tell them to go, you know, take numbers and all of that. But there was an implied suggestion when they brought in Craig Baroube that that was part of what was coming in is this team is going to get nasty and it's going to, you know, and all of this stuff. And I hate to say it, people have heard me do this before, but this idea of, you know, we got to have. an identity in the NHL. I'm like, I'm so sick of hearing that because the identity is always, it's always the same. Every team,

same identity, hard to play against, you know, smart defensively, boring, win two to one, all of that stuff. But it just hasn't clicked. This doesn't feel like this team doesn't feel different from the Sheldon-Keefe era.

It feels worse, maybe. Certainly right now. Doesn't it feel stale compared to the Shelton Keith era? Okay, but DGB, you talk about teams having an identity, right? And you say that, you know, a lot of teams want to have the same identity, except if you're Colorado, where you're hard to play against is that we are going to skate you into the ground and you're not going to have the puck and you're going to chase us all game long, all game long. You know who that was like three years ago?

The Toronto Maple Leafs. The Maple Leafs. The Maple Leafs used to be a team. that way where when they were at their best, they're hard to play against was that when Matthews line was on the ice, they had 70% of the possession and the chances. And you just,

guys after the game, I would hear it all the time. Like, I would do the radio, you know, pre-game and post-game shows with Jim Taddy on TSN 1050 and we would roll audio for an hour after the game. And all we would hear was, you know, the opposing coach or the best players for Toronto say,

Yeah, it felt like we were fast and we had the puck all night and they couldn't get anything going. And then we would hear the opposing team say, man, you just felt like you never have it against those guys. And that's like, we're talking three years ago now. And that was their identity at the time. It almost feels like Toronto has tried to address these playoff demons by getting, you know, these slower, slower, tougher, bigger guys. And they moved so far away from that where you're almost better. off just saying, we are going to be the fastest team on the ice every game. And we're going to have

the puck more than you and you're just going to have to chase us around. And they never doubled down on that. And now what this team lacks in so many different ways is skill. It's not grit. Well, they lack grit too. But who cares? They were never going to be gritty enough. But they could have been way more skilled than everyone. But they tried to implement all these pieces and mesh it all together. And now you have what you have. And it's kind of messy looking. And it doesn't look good what's going on out there. And, and I, I get that transformation because the skill era did not work in the playoffs. I mean, we saw it over and over again. This skill team would go in and they would get shut down by a Florida or whoever else it was, Boston. And so I, I get the idea of, hey, we have to,

maybe we take a step back in the regular season so that we can take a step forward in the playoffs. That's a trade every leaf fan would have taken when Craig Barubei came up. But the problem is right now it feels like it's two or three or four steps back in the regular season. And look, the optimist view, I guess, is maybe this is just the growing pains. I don't know why we're seeing growing pains a year plus into this stuff. Yeah, from a bunch of 30-year-olds. But maybe this is just learning. And if it costs you five points in the or even 10 points in the regular season, you still make the playoffs and you're better equipped.

Maybe. It's just tough to get into that mindset right now because it's five months away. And right now, if I have started today, the Leafs wouldn't be in them. Well, okay. Ask yourself this. Ask yourself this, okay, as you try and unpack what the Leafs are. I'll pose it to both of you. What's the one thing that you can cling to that would tell you it's November 12th today and they're going to turn this around and they'll be all good like they usually are, where it's not. no sweat and they just make the playoffs. Is there one thing that you can play to right now? Austin Matthews. He's hurt. That's right. He sure is.

He's hurt after last night. Lower body injury gets checked into the boards. Ruby wasn't thrilled about that, obviously. Here's my question for you guys. Who is the new sin eater for the Toronto Maple Leafs? Who is the new scapego? We've seen them cycle through them over the years. it was Sheldon Keefe

it was Kyle Dubus it was Mitch Marner and now it was Jake Gardner my God it was it's been it's been Morgan Riley and it certainly was

William Nealander for a lot of years there yeah yeah most of those guys are gone in some capacity the the Riley's and Nealanders and Tavaris's of the world have stuck on the roster

I think they've all worn that collar at one point or another but who is to blame for this primarily now where i the better question is is maybe where where does the laser get truly focused like does this turn into a burubi thing does this turn into a tree living thing does this turn into an austin matthews thing are people projecting anger onto brandon carlo because he was the big trade edition who's gonna you know who it's a top five protected lottery pick going back to Boston, so I guess they have that going for them. I'm like, who is the guy who ascends to the, to the peak of Mount Scapegoat here for Leif's Nation?

Because there's going to be somebody. If it's the pie chart, I think it's a pie chart situation. I think we got to break out the pie chart and you've got to go percentage of the pie. And the reality is when the team that has been so good for so long, okay, I was talking to someone about this this morning, actually. I was there for year one of this iteration of the Toronto Maple Leafs being together. Matthews, you know,

Nylander, Marner's of course gone, Morgan Riley was there. That was 2016, 2017. Just to let you know how long, to put it into perspective, how long these guys have essentially been cruising to the playoffs, stress-free.

I was there year one. I played for a bunch of different teams in the minors, different NHL team, played for two teams and two continents in Europe, and started a new career. And now I'm like three years into that career. Yeah, got married, had a couple babies. Got married, had a couple kids. There's been some big changes. That's how long we have held the Toronto Maple Leafs to the expectation that you just get to the playoffs.

And then it's up to you guys to get over the hump. Now, it's like we have to, we have to almost adjust. that because today we wake up and they're in the basement of the Eastern Conference, which is just not something that has happened. So as far as assessing the blame to people, there's like, listen, the general manager has made some moves that, you know, he moved on from a guy like Fraser Minton and a first round pick and has brought in Brandon Carlo and it hasn't worked out and couldn't get Mitch smarter sign. And like, you know, and now it's a different coach who's a different voice than what

Sheldon Keith was. And like, so there's going to be blame for the GM. There's going to be blame for the coach. There's going to be blame for the players who are ultimately, you know, very good players, but aren't playing to their capability. You know, goal tend to, that took a huge step back this year. You know, it's all about assessing the percentage. But when they're, when they're that bad this year, it's not just one thing. It's not the old, hey, Justin Hall had a couple, you know, plays that cost us a game. It's not that. It's, it's, this feels different than the old school.

One guy's the whipping boy. This is the, the pie chart of percentage. And that sounds a lot, that sounds a lot worse. That sounds like this single biggest thing. Correct me if I'm wrong. You guys can both answer this. But like, what are you more concerned about regarding this team than anything else? And I, to me, if I were in your shoes, and if I, if I, if I,

of vested interest in the in the success of the Toronto Maple is which I don't I think the fact that there isn't one whipping boy is the single biggest problem there's no there's no there's no single person left to absorb you know all the all the negativity in all the beating this seems more like a full systems failure than than we've ever seen from them in the past it it does I mean I think you could argue that a lot of the previous failures were system failures too but it was just fans and fan bases and markets doing what they do. But it does feel like that time is over in Toronto, at least right now. It's not, you know, you talked about lasering it on somebody. It's not right now, it's the blame, the anger, the frustration in Toronto. It's, it's a machine

gun. It's not a sniper rifle. It's, it's everybody's getting it. And, and look, I mean, you talk about percentages. That's Myrtle's piece that I would suggest people go read, where he was talking about where does the blame lie. Like that's the approach he took. Published two days ago, by the way. This is, two days ago. This is before the latest catastrophe.

Different world, but here we are. I really feel like if I had to, if I had to focus it, I think you're seeing more of it on the coach and the front office right now. I think a lot of people are looking at Craig Brubago and this is year two. Is this working? Is it not? And it's coming from both sides because you've got to, people who maybe like Shelton Keith and like that era and like the high speed play to your

strengths. Don't worry about the playoffs. Just be the best team you can be in the moment. They like that approach and they don't like this new Barubi approach. And then there's also a lot of people who loved it when Craig Barubi came in because they were like great. Here's a grizzled, no-nonsense guy. He's not going to baby these guys the way Sheldon Keith kind of felt like he was sometimes we're not going to see him offer little tiny mild criticisms and then immediately walk it back the next day because somebody's Fifi's got hurt and he has to like repair the relationships. This guy's going to come in and crack some skulls. And so far, I mean, he looks furious on the bench, but then, you know, who's gotten benched? Who's gotten sent

to the press box? Who's gotten called out? You don't really see it. So I mean, Craig Barubei's kind of caught in between where it's like, do I, do I be even more Burubi? in than I have been or do I dial it back and maybe adjust to this roster that I've got. But I really think it's more even than that, you're going to start seeing the Bradtre Living hot seat warm up. Because even in Myrtle's piece, I saw, you know, he singled out Barube, Burubi, got a big chunk of the blame. And then in the comments, people are going, yeah, who hired Craig Barrube?

Well, it was Bradshaw Living. And last year's deadline looks like a disaster. He went all in on Brandon Carlo and Scott Lawton, and meanwhile makes the Carlo trade, gives up a first round pick and a very good prospect in Fraser Minton for for Carlo from a team that then trades Brad Marchand for less to Florida and, you know, which guy would you rather have for a playoff run? The offseason stuff hasn't worked out great. The new guys who are coming in, this whole thing of, you know, we can rebuild Mitch Marner in the aggregate, money, ball approach has failed completely. Yeah. And I think people are looking at True Living's track record in Calgary and all of that stuff,

and it's not great. So I think that's where you're going to see it. And then it trickles down. But again, it just bounces back up. True Living's been here long enough now that if you don't like a guy on the roster, good chance. Brad True Living is the one who went and got him. You don't like a contract?

Good chance. Brad True Living's the guy who signed that contract. It's whatever your thoughts on Kyle Dubas, that era is largely done. Not saying it's a completely clean slate, but it's no longer can you point to the past and say, those guys screwed it up and, you know, Brad's just here to clean it up. He's not cleaning it up. It's not very clean out there. It's ugly.

And I think that's where you're going to see the fans pointing. And that's a problem because, hey, if everyone wants to point to Morgan Riley, I mean, you could trade Morgan Riley or you could trade for somebody to come in and bump him down the lineup. When it comes to a front office, you're talking much bigger changes and they're tough to do in November. For tree living though, like just, I know we got to go to break, but he can always redeem himself with a couple smart trades, right? Like you make something happen and all the sudden that jump starts your team and sparks it. There's always that possibility. Yeah, with all those tradable assets they have, all those.

And also, this is the same guy. It's, it's been five months of him trying to trade David Camp. Like, your six best center, and it's apparently too complicated for this front office to pull off. So I, you know, you'll forgive me if I'm not really too excited about their ability to pivot now when, you know, the Cali Yarncroft trade watch is, you know, we're in the month eight of that or whatever. Trades are hard, Sean. There's a salary cap. Did you guys know that? It makes people's jobs really hard.

That's why there's no trades in the NBA ever. Frank, who's your pick? Blame somebody. Come on. I told you. It's everyone. Right. I took hop out move, but I'm sorry.

It's correct. When goaltending, worst in the NHL. Defensively, porous. Like, there's, so that's, so it's, goaltending has some blame, coaching has some blame. Players have some blame because they're not clearly getting what they're supposed to be doing. And some of the moves that have been made in the front office. I'm like, what is that, four, four things I named.

It's 25% each all the way around the pie right now for me. And until I see anything further, it's just everyone's got to take their share of it. It's not one thing when you've been that below your expectations to start the season. I think that was a segment for everybody because least fans want to revel in their own suffering. There was a Donald Cowboys. opposing fan bases want to do the exact same. That felt like an ESPN Dallas Cowboys type of segment where like nationally, like if you're a fan of any other team, you'd be like, I can mess with that. Like I can find some entertainment in the Cowboys struggles.

And I feel like hockey fans can find entertainment in Leap struggles. I can't wait to hear from all the people who are like, why do the Leafs get so much coverage? and then they post that comment 18 times in every single Leafs article and can't square the circle of how those two things might be related. I've got some numbers that answer the question. Why do the Leafs struggles get so much attention? I think next seven we're going to talk about some other crummy teams. And how they affect the Maple Leaf?

That's the big. What are the Nashville Predators done to affect the Toronto Maple Leafs over the last few weeks? Stick around for that. All right, we're back. As we said a couple minutes ago, there are, in fact, other bad teams in the NHL besides the Toronto Maple Leafs. We want to talk about a couple of those here.

Fellas, don't know how much you've been paying attention to the way things are going in Nashville. Not great. Lost six, three to the Rangers a couple days ago, a bunch more losses before that. Last in the league in goal differential, or in a I'm sorry in in five on five goal share second from the bottom in points we had the whole rhino Riley kerfuffle last week it seems like he apologized for some of that and you know fell on

his sword right like they caught him at a bad moment clearly can't can't blame them for that um let's rate this on a scale of one to ten frankie like how bad how bad do you view the situation in Nashville right now especially when we're talking about barry trots's future we're certainly talking about Andrew Brunette's future. We're trying to, people are already trying to work Steven Stamco's out of there and somewhere and other trade vultures are circling. Like this is a devolving situation, I would say. It's, it's so weird in, you know, how, how dire, how bad of a situation, like, I don't

know, out of 10, it's got to be an 8. Like, at least it's got to be an 8. Like, I never want to say 10 out of 10 because there's a lot of, like, there's a lot good people involved in these situations that are good hockey players. that it's just not gone well for Nashville. And a lot of guys with really good track records. Like Ryan O'Reilly is one of those guys. He's one of the best guys you'll meet in hockey.

He really is. And he's a great player and has been for a long time. But, you know, the moves that they've made in Nashville have clearly not made the team better. Their goaltender's not getting any younger. And he gets bombarded and peppered seemingly every time he's in the Natch. Gets yanked against the Rangers on Monday night. Yeah. He's he allowed five.

gave up goals at Madison Square Garden. Nobody does that. That's right. Yeah. Five goals in New York, he's like giving up 15 somewhere else, you know. Roman Yossi's only played eight games this season. Like he's trying to play with,

you know, he's got pots and he's playing through stuff. Like it's just, it's not a great situation. And now, you know, Stephen Stamcoos, who, Stamco is a really good player.

It's been a really good goal score for a long time in the NHL. Is he still a play driving centerman? No. but he's a useful goal score, but they're not getting that out of him. So it's crazy what's gone on in Nashville. I don't know like how you turn it around there like quickly. And Andrew Burnett, Andrew Burnett as a coach, like had the reputation of being this like offensively, you know, minded, empowering his players to do a lot with the Pock.

And like they certainly played that way in. in Florida when he was there and they don't score a lot. Like a lot of that has to do with they don't have a lot down the middle of the ice. But man, it's not great in Nashville. And you're at the point now where it's like you try and strip it. And then how far back does that set you as you try and, you know, get back to some kind of trajectory that makes you a winning team? They're in Sweden now too. They had a fly over there for the for the Sweden series with the,

with the penguins. Like, this is, the wheels, it's, it would be disingenuous to say that they're wobbling. Those things are, those things are about to fall off. It's also tough in that market, guys. Like, it's tough in that market to, to sell a, a rebuild because it's not like a guaranteed. Like, if you were, I lived through the rebuild in Toronto. Like, I was there when we were last place and we drafted Austin Matthews. Guess what?

I looked up every night, whether I was in the press box for, on the ice, there wasn't an empty seat. You didn't have to worry about that. Not every market is like that. That's a big difference. That's a major differentiation point for Toronto too. Like, like, I'm speaking, of course, from like a Pittsburgh centric point of view here. There are so many fan bases and there's so many cities in the NHL that think that where

there's been a lot of success that think they're immune to all the problems that creep in when you're on year two or year three or year five of like retracted rebuild. like the amount of fan bases, the amount of franchises that can continue making money during that kind of situation is really, really short. Right? So everybody's

like laughing at the predators or whoever, like teams that really need to watch it. Calgary, teams like that, they really need to watch it for rebuilds. Like, don't like be careful because odds are your teams a little bit closer to trouble there than you realize.

And that's fair, but I do think there's another side to this coin, right? Which is in in Toronto, let's say, or Montreal or, you know, pick a big market like that. Yes, the building is still full and the money's still pouring in. But that building is full of fans who have paid a lot of money to come see the team. And they have opinions and they boo when the team is losing. And then they call the radio station and then they go post on social media and they do all this stuff. And that can be an issue in especially Canadian markets and what we would consider traditional markets, where I think a lot of times it's harder to rebuild in those markets,

because yeah, financially maybe you've still got the support, but you can sit down and say, we've got a plan, and this is going to, we're going to feel some pain for three years, but we're going to come out on the other side, and then you get two months into it, and the fans are freaking out. And suddenly the owner is getting cold feet and, you know, all this stuff is happening. That was the, you know, the start of the Brandon Shanahan era in Toronto where he was able to come in and actually sell that and say, we are actually going to do this and get the fans to buy along.

And is it easier to do that in a place like Nashville where you say, hey guys, we're going to take this step back and maybe the local fan base is more willing to go, okay, you know what? We'll watch the Titans for a little while. Titans are doing a rebuild too. They got a number one overall, but we'll go watch them. and give you a bit of space to do it. And I think the worst of both worlds is like a Calgary or maybe a Vancouver where you're not quite a big enough market to whether it financially, but also you've got everyone screaming at you every time you lose.

And that's why we haven't seen Calgary do it. And who knows how long. But yeah, Nashville is a mess. And to answer the question of Frankie D is tear it down, you have to. You have, I, I can understand, yesterday, yesterday. I can understand maybe if you're an optimist and all of that stuff, you say, maybe last year was just one of those weird years where everything went wrong. So we run it back or we, you know, we, we, we give it another shot. Okay, this team now is what they're telling you they are.

They're not a good team. You look at their leading scores. Four of the top six are 30 years older, older. five of the top five of the top eight I think because March so and by the way Stephen Stamco's isn't on that list because he's not even he's not scoring at all and I and I got to say again like we said with the Leafs we were talking about Brad till Living a lot of this has to go on on the front office and I loved Barry Trots coming in finally a guy with fresh eyes he hadn't been a GM he hadn't been in front offices for 20 years learning all the excuses and all the stuff about how it's your job is too hard. this guy was going to come in and take some big swings. But now you're looking at it going, you know, A, the moves aren't working, B, the coach isn't working, but the coach who is the GM doesn't seem to want to make a change there either. I mean, at some point, this is a mess.

And this is headed towards dead last overall. And maybe that's the plan. But yeah, it's not a controlled demolition. Like we've seen in Chicago and San Jose and places like that. And that's okay because a lot of times these rebuilds, that's how they start. You know, the hockey gods tell you give you a little boost and then you've got to take the hint and follow along. But this isn't a hint anymore. This is a big giant flashing neon sign in Nashville saying it's not working.

It will not work. You have to fix it. And they're over in Europe. I don't know if there's any concerts in Europe that they can get tickets to and then cancel. But that's about the only thing that's going to save them at this point because it is an absolutely. best. I was like after last season, whenever that was that two years.

My God, that was when did U2 save their season? The U2 was two years ago. Two years ago. And that was the thing that people forget. They were awful for most of that season. And then they had the whole U2 thing. They went on the hot streak,

made the playoffs, and everybody was like, oh, this team's good. Let's go out and get Stamco's and Marsso and all of that. I mean, it's, they've been pretty bad for, you know, going on two and a half, Two and a half seasons.

And, you know, not to do like revisionist history, but think about this at the time. They go on that hot streak. They make the playoffs. They lose to Vancouver. And like goals were hard to come by at the time. So what did they do? They went out and they got Stephen Stamcoz and Jonathan Marchesel. And they essentially imported 82 goals.

That's what they did. Like in theory, you were importing anywhere between because they both had 40 the previous season. You were saying on a good year, I could get 80. on a so-so year out of both of these guys, I can get 60 more goals in my lineup. And it didn't work, and it's not going to work. A crucial thing they forgot, by the way, was someone who could get the puck to Steven Sam Cows,

which is like why I was, like, last year I was willing to be like, maybe this is not true, ugly, full decline for him, you know, just because he's so reliant on having someone set him up for those shots. Yeah, we saw the shot rate decline. It went from 11 to 7 per 60 at 5 on 5. that's that's not good but now we've seen the finishing talent just crater crater as well like so i i'm i'm concerned about about stamp goes like i i feel like this is him uh rapidly rapidly progressing towards the end and by the way eight million bucks a year for two more years two more

years this isn't it's easy to look at this and go maybe he just needs a fresh start maybe he needs this or that how are you going to pull that on i oh i i i think If you could get someone to eat that money and take him, you would do it in a second, and guess what would happen? He would go somewhere that's a good fit, and he would pop 30. I love it.

That's what I was going to ask. That's my view on Samco's. I think if he goes to the right spot, you get him on the power play, and even if you get him with the right player at five on five, he doesn't need Kutrov, but he needs someone who can facilitate. There's not a team out there that's going to pay $8 million to find out.

You know, that's like, I don't think you would ever waive Stephen Stamco's. I mean, just given the respect that they have around. But if they put them on waivers, he wouldn't get taken right now. So, you know what? I'll throw a team out there. I'll throw a team out there that's like always kind of feels like they're, I'm not going to call them desperate, but urgent to try and make the playoffs.

He's Vancouver. I don't know. Maybe Vancouver's like they're never going to do a rebuild there. No way. They're always going to throw something at the wall and see if it sticks. Like that would be something. But again, like, Stamcoast was so deeply entrenched in Tampa. And then this year they got the whole family settled into Nashville.

Now you're going to go to Vancouver? I mean, it's just, it's a tough dynamic. Can I throw something at you that is just, I don't even know if I should put this evil into the world. Let's assume Nashville's willing to eat half. Are there any teams out there that are pretty good, but just lost a center for most of the season? Stephen Stamcoast to the Florida Panthers, where he slots in there. They resurrected Seth Jones. How much would you hate that if you're the Tampa Bay Lightning?

Well, I don't think he's a center on that team. Because I don't think he's a center anymore. But if he went to a team like Florida and for some reason, it all of a sudden just turned around and that would be the greatest. Ride Marchand was done last year. It's not a heel turn. We all thought it was, yeah. It's just a really cool situation.

like down the road from Tampa and all of a sudden this guy's popping water bottles again daily. The Pittsburgh Penguins have $9 million in caps Piz. Dubus pick up the phone, take the entirety of the contract, take on a draft pick of sweetener. But if you add another old guy to old guy Voltron, there's your trade deadline reinforcement.

That's what you have to do with your Nashville is retain. Retain and to get something as opposed to refuse to retain and now you're probably giving up assets to get the guy out of that you can't be given up picks and all of this stuff you need those you need to you need to do something and now it's do you even have the right front office in place and are you like would you fire barry trots you're not going to do that in Nashville the guy's a hero the guy is the most important guy in in the history of the organization he's second the firing line that's for sure is it do you bump him upstairs to president I don't know, man. Just give them the team. Just make them the owner. Just trade stamp goes to the Maple Leafs. I think that's clearly the solution here.

Frankie, where are you this week, buddy? We got, I'm in Montreal, and we have the Dallas stars here tomorrow. So it'll be nice to get eyes on them. They had to come back win last night against the Ottawa senators. Actually, going to go watch them practice today. Get eyes on what's going on there. So looking forward to it, boys. Let me know how that goes.

I'm interested in the Dallas Stars. Yeah, me too. The Dallas Stars practice experience. They're always like this analytical darling of a team, and they always lose in the Western Conference final, a different coach this year. So interesting to see how that whole dynamic is with Gwen Gulleton running the show.

Just congratulate Jim Nillan. Jim Nillan is a fourth consecutive Gregory Award and beyond your way. Soon to be. See you later, buddy. See you, boys. All right, folks, we're back for our third segment today. We are joined by a,

a man who covers a team that for the first time in the long running history of the DGB weekend rankings I think have climbed out of the bottom five. Is that true? Is that true? Not the history, but it was a streak of three years and 68 columns. This is the first time they're out of the bottom five.

Scott, is the banner raising like the next home game or did they just do it immediately when that... It's, you know, the athletic will be 10 years in January. And the Blackhawks haven't really been that relevant in the entire time I've covered the team for the athletic. It was... I covered two Cubs for ESPN and then came the athletic. And, yeah, you know, even the first year,

we weren't credentialed. They went to credential the athletic. So we didn't cover the team that close to the first year. And then the second year... I didn't know that, by the way. That's very funny. Yeah. And then the second year,

it was the last time when they were in the playoffs. So it's been a minute since they were, yeah, and I don't know if this is exactly a playoff team, but they're playing better and they're interesting. It's her best stars since the 2016-17 season. So that's, it's something. So, yeah, a little bit more relevant than we've had in Chicago for some time. Did things feel different for you personally,

waking up every morning and knowing that you're covering, according to Sean McHen do, the six or seventh or eighth, the eighth worst team in the league instead of the second or third? Yeah. There's a little bit more interest in the stories and you're not like having to write every story that's advancing the next five, ten years, right? Like it's not always looking at it. We're not talking about the, you know, the 2027, 28 draft already. So yeah, that's a positive. It's a little bit easier when the day to day is relevant. So I think that's the upside. And certainly the Conradard factor.

I mean, people, I don't know if people are as crazy about as Connor Bardard and the interest made wane since, you know, that year one where everything you wrote about Conner Bradard was just, which is, which is. just killed and eating up. And, um, and, and now it's, um, you know, there's maybe less intrigued, but he's, you know, he's, um, I think he's proven some people wrong. And I think some people wrote him off strangely at, you know, at 20, but, um, he's, he's performing at a high rate. So it's, um, yeah, there, there's something there. And, you know, the fact that he's doing it with, you know, Andre Barakowski and he was with Ryan Green, who, um, who's a fine player, but, you know, like, you're still doing the players, so you probably wouldn't think of typical first liners. You know, Tyler Bertusie's on the top line out too. So, so.

I think there's a little bit more, I don't know, stability there a little bit than, than he's had in the past and guys who are at least pros and, you know, guys who played top line, you know, top line positions before, maybe a little bit on the wrong side of 30 and, you know, not long-term line mates, but I think that's helping too, just having guys who are predictable. And he's, you know, he's, you know, Badard has more passes of the slots and he's doing a lot of things that you see top players do. And, you know, Bertuzzi's finishing him in Bukra, Verkovsky's been pretty good in setting him up. So it's, I think that comes into play.

And then I think the larger thing, too, is that Conradar is just faster and more mature. And, you know, there's some physical features that just, you know, as an 1819, you know, probably wasn't exactly ready for everything in NHL. And I think he's understanding the league at this point. And it's, yeah, things are evolving. Yeah, I'm, I'm starting to think that I made a mistake with the Mount Rushmore of first overall busts in my backyard that's, I have Yakupov, Patrick Steff on a Rick DiPietro. and I had already started carving Connor Bedardin,

and I'm now starting to worry that may have been early. You had to go back and get the Alexander Degh that you had. Yeah. That you'd thrown away. Power sanding off Alexander Degg in the nurse's uniform. It was perhaps a little early. Maybe I should have let the guy get out of his teens before I cast judgment. I got to ask as a Canadian about the Teen Canada factor.

I was watching the on TSN last night. Mike Johnson and I want to say Craig Button had their team Canada. They did not have Connor Bedard. They did have Macklin-Cellebrini. Is this something that matters? How much does this matter to Connor Bedard? And how much are we kind of trying to force maybe a little bit of a rivalry here between these two number one picks?

Or is there a little bit of that in him of, you know, what? I want to be in this conversation. Yeah, I think the team Canada is important to all. these kids, right? Like they, you know, I think it's on his radar. Yesterday he was asked about and downplayed it and he was asked about Celebrini and the points he's producing. And he said, you know, they're good friends and he's, he's happy when he's putting on points. And I think, I think Connor Bernardard is so comfortable in who he is. And he's dealt with the spotlight so much early on in his career that, yeah, I think he looks at it differently where I think he's very

competitive with them himself and he wants to produce. But also very supportive of those other young kids because I think he understands what they go through in the spotlight and, you know, all that that goes with it and, you know, even him knowing Gavin McKenna and, you know, he's talked about him before. And so I think for Celebrini, and I know they spend some time together in the offseason and they work out. So I, and, you know, I guess some of this is the rivalry, you know, be built up whether it happens on the ice or not. I think right now it's, it's easy to, to create just based on their ages and all the hype that was built around them. But yeah, we'll see what with the sharks and Blackhawks become.

And unfortunately, the two teams don't even play until I think it's March or something like that. Yeah, that's a bummer. I found myself looking that up recently, too. Like, when do we get Celebrini versus? Yeah, so it's going to be a minute for that. So I think that'll be important. I think, you know, whether those teams are relevant and they take that next up. And yeah, it'll be interesting to see, you know, how much even they play each other again, you know,

this sort of age, but how much down their ice at the same time. But, yeah, I think it's important to me. I mean, I think, you know, he took some criticism for not playing in the world. Worlds for Team Canada and whether that would have an effect and Celebrity did. But part of it was, you know, Conradard understood that he wasn't the player he needed to be or wanted to be after two years in the league. And part of it was how, you know, it was the speed factor. And he looked at him.

He was just playing even slower in year two than he was in year one. So he attacked the off season in a different way than his, than his, than previously. And, you know, the results have been out there. He's skating much faster. He's, you know, he's getting the pucks. he's, you know, the puck's scoring on the rush and producing on the rush are at a higher speed and doing it more consistently. So it's hard to knock what he did in the offseason and saying no to cadent at the world. You know, like if Conradar is good enough, they're going to take them.

It's just, whether it's this Olympics or the next one. But, you know, if he continues to build on this, and if he's at a point of game plus come a month or so from now, it's hard to ignore that Connor Bard's going to only continue to get better. And the fact that he's playing with, you know, decent players, but he's obviously, you'd think him around better elite superstars that, you know, he can probably take this to another level too and maybe not have as much on him where he's, you know, his ice time's crazy right now. And he's, you know, he's playing center and, you know, whether that would happen

in Canada and I'm taking faceoffs. And there's so much on him, too, that you wonder on a team Canada. And if he's just worried about if you're focusing on offense, maybe there's more there to give too. So, yeah, if I'm Canada, it'd be weird not to take celebrating in Padard, right? Like, you just, you know the potential there and the fact that they're only going to get better. I mean, it's a really talented team. But if both these guys are in the top 10 scoring and they're doing this, and, you know, with so-so teams, what's it going to look like when they're playing with other elite players? Is the skating the primary difference? And is that the thing that's changed the most when you watch

him year over year? Has that been where he's made that leap? Is, like, we're looking for some reason to explain, I think, and this might be wrong, why he, you know, why, why the production zamped up. It is, and I know it does need to be one thing, but as someone who's watched, you know, every professional game that this kid has played, like, is that the secret sauce for the time being? Yeah, and I wrote about this on the athletic on Monday, and we kind of dove into all the reasons. And one of them is the skating.

He certainly, he looked faster coming into camp, and then, you know, the NHL's edge data. it shows he's faster and he's you know he's not a burner but he's he's fast enough now um and the linemates are important him and berf kosky are having the most success um you know he's having the most success with ber of koska than any linemate he's had in his career um i think it was minimum a hundred minutes of five and five so it the sample size is growing um you know some of this maturity like you see him being stronger him being um you know i think plashill is really emphasized the defensive side and and just you know being three years in a league in a 20 like it's he's he's played enough financial hockey now to kind of understand what he can get away with and what he needs

to do. And you see some of that and, you know, just the strength wise too. And you see it in the face offs where, you know, he was at 37 percent, I think, last season. Now it's at 46. Like it's, like there's, like there's some significant growths there. So I think it's a lot of different things, but I think the speed was part of it where he just needs to be, he doesn't have to be Connemick David. But he has to be fast enough to, you know, to be able to get to, you know, get on the rush and and curate and he's been really good this year with um yeah just being able that you know to finish off those two of ones or you know i think he's so you know that shot is so so unique and it seems like it's a little bit more precise this year too his shooting percentage is a

little higher and you always tell the goalies are a little unsure anytime he he lets it go where they're just not sure if he's going to you know where he's going to put it and there's a lot of rebounds created so i think even that's you know benefit of bertusie and verovoski and um you know the primary sister up i think he's set up nine of verovskis and bertuski's and bertuski's these goals so far so and being the primary. So, you know, there's a lot of different factors, but I do think the speed is, it was key to unlocking a lot of that, too, just creating more in his game.

So let's, in the newsletter this week, I pulled out the gimmick of let's plant some flags. Let's plant a flag on this Hawks team. I'm not going to ask you if they're going to make the playoffs. Is this Chicago Blackhawks team playing meaningful hockey in March? So they get to March. Are they playing games? that we're all going, oh, this one's got real, they're in the mix, even if they don't make it.

Meaningful big time hockey for the first time in Connor Bardard's NHL career in March, yes or no? No, I don't think so. I don't think it's there yet. I think this team isn't deep enough. And there's a lot of signs pointing that Spencer Knight's really keeping this team up. And I still question this team can score enough goals. You know, Bard's going to cover some of that and he's taking that stuff. and certainly, you know, Frank Nazar, and you've got some young players that weren't producing

at such a level last year. I just question whether this team's, yeah, I can score enough goals. And, you know, right now they're playing 11 forwards and seven defense from every night to cover a little bit up of the defense in some of the guys who, you know, strengths are in different areas. And, you know, Artim Lefshanov, you know, the third overall couple years ago is playing better. But, yeah, I think they're so young defensively, too, just whether the consistency of

that and, you know, you have some older vets to and see how they hold up. But even now, like, they're dealing with some injuries, you know, Nazar's hurt, Dickinson's hurt, and, you know, there's a couple of guys in Rockford that they called up. Nick Lardis, who scored 70 goals in in the OHL last year, I think is really intriguing. But there's, there's not a lot of depth of this team. And I think some players kind of are what they, you know, kind of are what they are. You know, I'm not sure Nick Faluno's going to fly in the fountain of youth at this point or, or, you know, like, I mean, there's some young guys who are still trying to figure out the NHL. So, I think there's, yeah, I think they're a really solid team and they're, they're interesting.

Whether Spencer and I can keep this up through an entire season. I mean, there's been a lot of nights where he's been the reason. You know, it'll be interesting to see if he can keep it up and Soder Bloom, Harvard Silverblum, has been pretty good as the backup. But right now it feels a lot of ways that, you know, like they're, yeah, the goalie's carrying this team in a lot of ways. And so, yeah, it'll be interesting. But yeah, I don't think it's this year. I think the year from now, it's, it's probably. a little bit more realistic. And even now, they haven't played a lot of teams from Central. So we'll see when they start playing Colorado and Dallas and all those teams, what that looks like, too.

The important thing, Scott, is that you have other stuff to write about. So congratulations there. You don't have to do the 15th or 20th assessment of Lucas Reichel or what have you. Lucas Reichel's gone now. I know. Las and I have written about Lucas Reichel more than any person should be allowed to. Thanks for joining us, bud. Appreciate it.

Thanks, guys. And thank you fine folks for listening. I'm back tomorrow with Haley and a little fella by the name of Mike Russo. Join us for that. McIndoo, Frankie and I are back. Of course, on Wednesday, we'll talk to you real soon and again. Thank you folks for listening. As always.

Have a good week.