The Athletic Hockey Show - Maple Leafs- Canadiens series underwhelms, goalie interference, and netminder issues for the Penguins and Panthers

Episode Date: May 27, 2021

Ian Mendes and Sean McIndoe discuss how disappointing the highly-anticipated Montreal-Toronto series has been so far, and the goalie interference in Wednesday's Golden Knights- Wild game. Is goalie interference really that hard to call? Also, goalie issues for the Pittsburgh Penguins and the Florida Panthers, which situation would you rather be in?Then, in "Granger Things" Jesse Granger previews Game 7 for Vegas and Minnesota, and shares some playoff trends for the three round 1 series still going. And in "This Week in Hockey History", Mark Messier's famous guarantee, and more.Have a question for Ian and Sean? Email [e-mail], or leave a VM at [phone]!Save on a subscription to The Athletic: theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back, everybody. It's another playoff edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. Ian Mendez, Sean McIndoo with you for the ride ahead on this episode of the podcast. We'll chat about the underwhelming Habs Leaves Playoff Series. So much hype, so much anticipation, such little entertainment. The goalie interference rule reared its ugly head again in the Vegas miniseries. Speaking of Vegas, Jesse Granger is going to drop by. for a little greenger things.

We'll chat about the Golden Knights and the Minnesota Wild going to a seventh in the deciding game, plus some betting lines as the opening round of the Stanley Cup playoffs comes to a close. A couple of teams got bouncing the playoffs on Wednesday, and which one of them, Pittsburgh Penguins of the Florida Panthers, has a bigger issue in goal,

and we'll wrap up the show as we always do with a little this week in hockey history looking back at Mark Messier's guarantee and Lanny McDonald going out on top. But as we kick off this show, Sean, there's a lot of anger in the hockey world over a goalie interference call in game six between Vegas and Minnie. And I always say this is what I feel like, okay? I always go to Twitter and people are angry. They get worked up about goalie interference. And you, Sean McIndoo, down goes brown, you are the voice of reason. You are like,

you are the guy that calms everybody down. I always say like you're like, you're the Mr. Miyagi. of goalie interference, you have wisdom beyond your years. So walk us through what was clearly a controversial moment in a crucial playoff game. Did they get that one right, Vegas and Minnie?

Yeah, first of all, let me, I'll dispute your premise because I don't calm anyone down when it comes to this stuff because we're also programmed at this point to do this whole, oh, nobody understands

goaltender interference, so therefore my team definitely got screwed and on and on we go. And it's, I'm going to write a piece, I think, to lay out the basics here because here's the thing. We should not have goaltender interference review. It shouldn't exist. This rule does not lend itself well to replay review. Replay review is good for black and white. Was it on the line?

Was it not? you know, those sorts of calls. Was the puck over the line or not? That's a great one for replay. There's a handful of others. Offside, I think, doesn't work well for other reasons, but in theory, it at least lends itself to the concept. The problem with goaltender interference is very subjective. So even if you understand the rule, which you absolutely can do because it is not a complicated rule, there's still a lot of gray areas. And there's just, there's areas of judgment. And it just, whenever you put replay review in front of fans, there's an expectation. that you're going to just get it right and that we're all going to look at the replay and go, okay, now we all saw the same thing. We all agree. And that's never going to happen for goaltender interference, which is why my starting point is we shouldn't have it at all. But we do. There doesn't seem to be any appetite to get rid of it. So if we're going to have this thing,

the next best thing we can all do is put in the basic effort to understand the rule. And it drives me crazy. And here, I'm not talking about, fans. I'm talking about media. I'm talking about you and me and everyone who covers this sport. And it's and I'm not, this is not a sub-tweet at anyone in specific. This is, this is me talking, because I see this all the time from all sorts of otherwise very smart people who just go into this schick of nobody understands, nobody has any idea, flip a coin. It's our job to understand. If you're a fan and you don't get it, that's because you've been failed by people like us who we're supposed to explain stuff to you. If you're in the media and you're still, after all these

years doing the big shrug emoji, nobody knows what's going on, that's on you. Because it's not that hard to pick up a rulebook and read it and understand most of it. Like I say, you can get to a point where you will understand 80 to 90% of what happens and what the calls are going to be. You're ever going to get to 100% because it's such a subjective call. There's just, there's no way to get there. But it's really not that complicated a rule. And the one last, night, you know, everyone's going, well, oh, geez, why is this interference? What's it? It's because the guy went in the crease.

It was Alex Tuck, was it? Alex Tuck. He goes in the crease. You can't go into the goaltender's crease. People make that out like it's a minor detail when it comes to goalie interference. They sit there and go, oh, was there contact? Was there this? Was there that?

Was he in the crease? That's most of the rule, because the rules are very, very different inside and outside the crease. If you don't learn anything else about goaltender interference, just internalize this. Players can't be in the crease. That's it. That's the goaltenders territory. And anyone who goes in the crease, if there is any sort of interference, it doesn't even have to be contact, even screening the goaltender in the crease. I've seen that. People going, what, we can't screen goalies anymore? No, not in the crease. You can't do that. You were never able to do that. In this case, Alex Tuck is cutting through the crease. He skates into the blue ice.

Now, granted, there's a defenseman right there that makes it hard for him to get out. I'm sure he would have rather gone in front of the crease, but there's a guy standing there. That doesn't mean that he gets to skate through the crease. That's the goalie's area. As a player, you can't be there. Now, yes, if you get cross-checked into that by a defenseman, yes, that's okay. There are certain times where if the puck goes in, you're allowed to go in and try to make a play on the puck, but it's very limited. And they will, they will very rarely give the leeway.

to the attacking player there. It usually goes to the goalie in the crease. Outside the crease, totally different set of rules. Virtually every goal we've seen waved off this week, if the player had been two inches further out outside the crease, that's fine. There's nothing, if Alex Duck stays out of the crease, nothing he did last night is a problem. But he's not allowed in the crease. That's the goalie's territory. The goalie has full rank to play his position in there. As soon as you go in the crease, chances are that goal's coming back. See, I told you, you are. You're the voice of reason.

And you do. When you explain it, it seems so clear. Now, here's my theory on what happened on Wednesday night. The NHL, they're like, we owe Cam Talbot. At least five goalie interference calls. Remember, the 2017 playoffs, Anaheim Edmonton, and Ryan Kessler had, it was like that play where Talbot's pad got pushed. And Talbot's post game comments there was just, he went apoplect.

And I, you know, can you imagine if that one, can you imagine Cam Talbot if that goal stood what his reaction would have been? Yeah, he would have been furious and rightly so. And the other thing is with that goal last night, initially they called it a goal, they signaled a goal, but then they got together and the ruling on the ice before they go upstairs was no goal. So that just raises the bar even more. to overturn a call on the ice, it's supposed to be a higher bar than it would be to confirm one. Now, they don't, in my opinion, they don't do that enough. They don't go far enough with that. But yeah, no, I can't Talbot would have been furious

because there was a guy in his crease and he's not allowed to be there. And he was interfering with Camtelbert's ability to stop that shot. I saw all the people, again, you know, doing the schick and the shrug emojis. And I saw a lot of fans who were convinced that was the wrong call. terrible, et cetera, et cetera. No, it wasn't. That wasn't a very hard call. There's a player in the crease interfering with the goalie. It's no goal. Now, we can argue about what the rules should be.

And we can talk about how this is a league that there's not enough goal scoring and should we be taking goals off the board. That's fine. I'm happy to have that conversation. Like I say, I would get rid of the reviews entirely. But we have reviews. We have a rule. Read the rule. It's not that tough. You can't be in the crease. End of review. You know, I, we'll pick up this series a little later. Jesse Granger will drop. I will talk about a game seven for the Vegas Golden Knights. And I think we're all hoping.

I think a lot of hockey fans were hoping for Colorado Vegas. But hey, Colorado Mini, that might be a pretty fun series. But the one, Sean, that we were so focused on, a lot of hockey fans, was the kind of the one that was going to be the first one of our lifetime, that we would remember Montreal, Toronto. Iconic original six franchises, arguably, probably not our arguably, they're the two biggest franchises in the sport, meeting for the first time of the playoffs in basically 40 years.

And it's been a dud. And I threw this question out on Twitter yesterday. We got some fun responses. I said, help us finish this sentence. The Leafs Hab series is the most disappointing thing in hockey since blank. Okay? So I got a few responses from people. A couple of people said most disappointing things since the outdoor game at Lake Tahoe.

that was pretty good, right? The sun is our enemy. At least we got that quote to live with. It's the most disappointing thing since the NHL decided to have video review for offside. Yep. Good call that. It might have been my burner account, but all right. Yeah.

You know, so those are some of the examples that we had coming in from listeners to the podcast on social media. If I asked you, Leif's Habs, it's the most disappointing thing in hockey since blank. What's your answer? I think the series is going great. I'm not disappointed at all. And in fact, no, I'm going to flip this around on you because I'm watching this series from a fan's perspective. And when you're a fan, you don't care about entertainment value. You are just results oriented at that point.

This is anyone who has spoken to a New York Islanders fan in the last three years knows that when you're, when you're a you're not looking for for the entertainment. So I can't answer the question, I don't think, because I'm watching it from that perspective. Has this been a letdown of a series? Is this been a bust? Is it that awful to watch? Are you being serious here?

No, I'm asking because I, again, like, I'm not, I'm not trying to argue that it has been entertaining. I'm saying that's not the view that I'm taking. So I'm asking somebody who's sitting there with the bag of popcorn just looking at it the same way that I would look at the other seven series, scale one to 10, like how bad has it been? And again, I think part of it was there was a hype machine here, right? Like this series was hyped up and it's been a letdown.

I think the Tavares injury certainly cast a shadow over game one. I didn't thoroughly. In fact, I didn't enjoy it at all. Like, as a, I felt sick to my stomach. And then since then, I guess as a Leafs fan, you would say, this is what you've been craving in the playoffs. there's kind of these low event, kind of just lock it down. Get a lead and then right out of the third period.

But man, a lot, there hasn't been anything of, like I've watched. And maybe, I don't know, maybe is this a function of no fans in this dance? Because you're watching the Carolina

Nashville series. You're watching Tampa, Florida. And there's this wonderful energy. And I wonder, is part of it, the contrast of no fans to some fans

and it's adding to what feels like a very vanilla series. Yeah, I think that's certainly got to be the case. And it's, you're right, by comparison when you go to some of these buildings that are getting close to being full, the fans make a huge difference.

And that is, I think we were all able to kind of deal with the lack of fans in our head when nobody had fans, but now that you're flipping the channel and you're seeing like these buildings going crazy. I think that's part of it. I think, I mean, you know, the Montreal Canadians are a team that's been well documented, don't have a lot of game breakers on the

offensive side. This was a team that was going to need Kerry Price to be fantastic. He has been for most of the series. I think this Leafs team, there's this feeling out there that this is the running gun team that tries to beat you seven to six. And that's not really what they've been this year. So I think if you were sitting down expecting that this was going to be a battle between with at least one team that was just trying to light up the scoreboard, kind of hasn't been that. The one thing I'll say, and I mean, I'm stating the obvious here. And I'm guessing probably a lot of people have been screaming at us as we're talking about this. The series isn't over yet. We're four games in to a potentially seven games series. So there's a lot of room left

for twists and turns. And I know, look, the Leafs have been the better team. There's an expectation that they'll close it out tonight, but it's not very hard to imagine a situation where Kerry Perez is a great game tonight. Canadian Steel Game 5. Now you go back to Montreal. There's going to be a few fans in the building. That changed the dynamic. Montreal wins game 6. Now it's game 7. Oh, my goodness. And here we go. And all the storylines and narratives and everything spring to life. So there's a long way for this to go. I tell you, I read the piece by Arpin on the athletic this week. And I recommended if you're a Montreal fan, if you're Toronto fan, do not read it because it chilled me to the bone as he was comparing the first four games of this series to the first four games of the Canadian's Capital Series in 2010. When the Canadians were big underdogs, they win game one, everyone goes, oh, hold on a second,

this could be interesting. They lose the next three. Everyone goes, okay, there you go. Washington's going to close them out. Hey, who's Washington playing in the next round, you know, going on to the whole thing? And then the goalie gets hot. They steal game five. It's win game six at home.

thing, you know, and I'm just reading it going, I shouldn't have opened this up. If you're a Montreal fan, you're looking for optimism. Check that piece out. Because, look, I mean, the Toronto Maple Leafs don't close out series early. They just don't. I tweeted this last week. There has been since 1963, since the Leeds won the Stanley Cup in 1963 in five games, they have had one series in 50, what?

48 years, one seven-game series that they've won in less than six games. Once, one time. They haven't won a five-game series since that 1963 Stanley Cup. So in other words, if you started watching

hockey at the 1963 off season, you've seen the Maple Leafs win more Stanley Cups than you have seen them win a short series. And this is the team that never win Stanley Cups. So it's yeah, they should win tonight. They should close out the series. We should be

talking about Leafs Jets tomorrow. But anybody who thinks this series is over, hold on. There is still lots of room for some extra chapters to be written here. Yeah, the sweep of Ottawa in 2001, right? That's the only one. Series that they wrapped up quick. It's funny, you mentioned that 2010 Habs team with Yarrow Halak, they beat Washington in round one, they beat Pittsburgh in round two.

And remember, when the Penguins lost that series, Sean, it kind of sent them in a spiral for like four or five years. We were like, oh, I don't know. Are the penguins still good? And we were like, has the window closed on the penguins? And here we are, 11 years later. And we're asking the question again, has the window closed on the penguins?

And I think Tristan, I think the worst part of this all is that they probably were the better team, certainly in game six and at times in that series, Tristan Jari let them down. So here's the question. If you're sitting in Ron Hextall's shoes and Brian Burke's shoes, how do you look at the penguins in the offseason? And has the window closed? What do you do with Malkin? What do you do with the goaltending?

It's going to be a really interesting four months here for the Pittsburgh Penguins. Yeah. And they were the better team except for the goaltending. And as I'm sure Islander fans would point out, goaltending is part of the team. And so, you know, that is something we looked at this penguins team kind of all year and went, oh, is the goaltending good enough? And remember, there were even those early in the season,

there were those rumors. Could Mark Andre Fleury be coming back? And, you know, that doesn't sound like it ever actually got close to happening. But, boy, you look at the way the season played out. And you think if they had ever had a way to do that, a completely different ballgame. I don't think the window was closed. I will admit that I've spent the last few years saying that it feels like the window was closed and they keep proving me wrong. So I don't think it is.

But I thought, like, Sean Gentile had a really good column after the game saying that, you know, this was another year gone off of the Sydney Crosby. year and and there's only so much of that left and and Evgeny Malcon as well in fact maybe him especially since he needs a new new contract next year it's uh the time is starting to run out

and to go into a series like this look we've we've all seen teams go into the playoffs and we go we're not sure about the goaltending and then the goaltending's fine because that's how goaltending works in the NHL you never really know and uh you know they they go in and and Tristan Jari plays great hey we're all we're all saying

You know what? That was smart of them. They didn't panic. They didn't give up assets. But that's not how it played out. And, you know, this is it. What does Ron Hexel do? What does Brian Burke do? I mean, remember Brian Burke when he would, in Vancouver with Dan Clucay? And then, you know, they would lose. And then he gave the big, I will never again have my team, not have the goal tending or whatever he said. Here we are. Happens again. They've got to go out and find someone. The good news is the expectation, at least, is that this is going to be the off season where there's going to be a lot of churning goal-tending because of the expansion draft. You can only protect one goalie, so any team that's got two guys,

they don't want to lose somebody for nothing, you think they're going to be hit the trade market. So there should be guys out there for Pittsburgh or any other team that is going to need goaltending. They better find the right guy, though, because this is not, you know, you don't have five more years of prime Sydney Crosby. I don't know what the number is,

how many you've got, but it's not that many. You know, I think it's interesting, too, because goaltending was at the heart of the Florida Panthers exit in the playoffs too in a different way in that they couldn't figure out who to use. It was a little Bob Brofsky. It was a little Chris Streaker. Then it was a little Spencer Knight. And I can't help but wonder, man, if they had put Spencer Knight in for game one, maybe we're having a different conversation.

But if I asked you, those two teams that got knocked out on Wednesday night, the Pittsburgh Pengers of Florida Panthers, Sean. Okay? I'm going to ask you which team's goalie issues would you rather have? Pittsburgh's or Florida's? I mean, I'd rather have Florida's because Florida's got a goaltender. They've got Spencer Knight and they've got their goalie of the future. Their problem is they're also locked into this big ugly contract with Sergei Birovsky, who I'm not ready to completely write off as a, you know, as a good NHL goaltender,

but obviously has not been anywhere near what they thought they were getting when they signed him. But the good news is if you got Spencer Knight, he's going to be on an entry-level deal for a couple of years. So it makes it a bit easier maybe to absorb that Brovowski deal or maybe there's a way to get out of it. I can't imagine you're going to be able to trade it or anything like that. So you probably just have to eat it. But I would rather have, I don't want to say the Panthers have too much goaltending because they've got an unproven young goalie who looks good. But we saw with Carter Hart, you never quite know how that's going to play out in a given year. And they've got a veteran making too much money.

So I don't think they have too much goaltending, but they have some goaltending versus Pittsburgh, where it almost. feels like I don't even, I don't think bringing Tristan Jari back as a starter is an option at this point. I don't see anyone else in the organization that I trust as my go-to guy on opening night. So you got to go out and find someone, whereas the Panthers could probably go into next year with what they already have and feel okay about it. Man, I'm torn. I think I'd rather be the penguins with their goalie, only because of what you laid out earlier of the expansion draft. and like maybe you can get Jake Allen or maybe you can get who like whoever it is

and you're not locked into them for whatever six, seven years like you are with Bob Rovsky. Like that, I think the penguins obviously to me have more flexibility. Yeah. But like you said, at least the Panthers have their guy. And it's man, it's a,

it's going to be a tough one for the Panthers. I still never, even at the time, when they signed Bobrovsky, it was like right on the heels of drafting Spaner. Spencer Knight. Like, it never made sense. Yeah. And I mean, the thing with that is when you, when you draft a goaltender, very often you're looking at a guy who's not coming in for four or five years. I mean, how many rookie NHO goalies do you see make their debut? And then you look and the guy's 25 years old.

And he's been he's been working on his game forever down in the minors or wherever else. So I mean, I don't think you draft Spencer Knight and then say, well, we don't have to address the goaltending, especially when you're the Florida Panthers in that situation. where they were in a couple years ago where you're saying we got to have some success we got to win a few rounds i don't mind them going after a uh a big name or even a sergey bravsky but the seven years i mean that is i would never go seven years to any goaltender under any circumstances let alone a veteran guy late in his career where you where you know there's going to be a decline on the back end of that contract the it's it's like any other big deal you got to say what's the ceiling here

what's the floor. And I don't think the ceiling on that was all that high for that many years. The floor was pretty much what we're seeing. And I know that, sure, I'm sure they went to Sergey Bobrovsky and said, we'd rather do three or four years. And he probably said, no, I'm going to get seven somewhere. And that's the cost of doing business. But at that point, maybe you have to make the tough calls and walk away. Or maybe you got to say, hey, if it's going to be this many years, we're not going to make you the second highest paid goaltender. in the history of the league. I don't know.

It's easy to look back and say that it didn't work because it clearly hasn't. The good news is that Spencer Knight's been not only everything they thought they were getting, but is fast-tracking his way to the NHL, getting, he's arriving quicker than you would have thought he would. That's great.

Maybe this is your guy, but you've got to figure out what you're going to do with this big, ugly contract because it's really hard to win in the NHL when you've got that much dead money sitting on your bench, wearing a baseball cap. Yeah, and, you know, I think goaltending, obviously,

was also at the front and center. Winnipeg Jets. Connor Hallibuck played like Connor Hallibuck can play. And I wanted to bring this up only because remember a few weeks ago, I told you. I was like, man, something weird's going to happen to McDavid in the playoffs. Watch. Every time there's been this like statistically dominant season,

it ends in weirdness. I didn't think that I, that's why I pick Winnipeg to advance. I never had a million years thought that the Oilers would get swept, though. No. And shout out to everyone who took our advice and took Connor McDavid with the first overall pick in their playoff pools. Yeah. I didn't see this coming. I look. I picked the Oilers as I think most people did. I'm not shocked that the Jets won. I think that the Jets are as I said, I think on the show. And as I wrote in quite a few places, they've got a lot of weapons up front. And they've got a really. really, really good goaltending, and that's not a bad combo to have in the playoffs. But I didn't see it being a sweep like that. And look, that was a close series.

I don't know if there's such a thing as a close sweep. But if there is, that was it. Three games in overtime. The Oilers, you look at the underlying numbers played pretty well. Just couldn't get a goal. And look, some of that's just Connor Hellbook. This guy is a legit, elite star in this league who should probably not just be getting a lot of

avesant consideration, but should be shown up on a lot of hard trophy ballots, given what he's got working in front of him, in Winnipeg. So full credit to them, but yeah, it's a tough path now going forward for Edmonton, and you're right. To say you had your piece today,

yet again, a player has a all-time, generational type offensive season and a round or two into the playoffs going home. Yeah. And, you know, what a 24-hour for the Oilers, they lose that series, and then Wayne Gretzky leaves the organization, he's going to TNT.

And the reason why I bring up Gretzky, he's front and center in your piece, which I thought was a really fun column that you had on the Athletica yesterday, which was, what if you put together a team of guys that were general managers and you put them up against a team of guys who ended up being head coaches, who would win? And, you know, my first thought was, well, Eisenman Sackick, that's probably going to end up being pretty good. And then you're like, ooh, but yeah, Gretzky coached in in Arizona for a long time. And as you put this together, this was actually pretty balanced. Like, I'll be honest, it was pretty balanced.

Probably you would say the team made up of coaches is going to be a little bit better. But this is probably a pretty fun column to put together. It actually was. And this is one of those where I had, in this case, actually a couple of different readers send it in and suggested. And I was kind of like you. My very first thought was, well,

team coach is going to have Gretzky and Patrick Wong. So that's going to be a hard combo to beat. And then you start thinking, wait a second, hold on. Sack at Geiserman, plus Ron Francis, that's pretty good.

And then I started digging in. And, you know, I'd forgotten that Brett Hull was briefly a GM in Dallas. And Phil Esposito had that legendary run in New York and later Tampa where he was just trading everyone. And as I was building out the forwards, I think Team GM takes it. But it's interesting because when you get to the defenseman, it tips quite a bit to the coach side. I don't know if there's anything to read into that.

I know sometimes people think coach or defense is like this more, it's more of the thinking man's position. And maybe that that translates to something. But you've got like the Larry Robinson's and Red Kelly, even Randy Carlyle, who won an or his trophy. Whereas Team GM had a couple of guys. They got Rob Blake and Doug Wilson, obviously, right now. Serge Savard had a lot of success in Montreal, but it kind of drops off after that. And then the goal tending is pretty even, too, because you've got Patrick Waugh, but on the other side, you got Ken Dryden. And that gives you the battle of the Montreal guys.

It was just one of those fun things. Throw the rosters together, gives us something to argue about, and then we can fight it out in the comment section over which team would actually win. You know, I think the, you put the caveat, the stipulation in, like, you had to spend one season in the role. Yeah, more than one season because there's a lot of guys that got one year as a coach. Brian Trachier is the first name. I was like, oh, Brian Trotche is going to be your second line center, was my first thought. And then I read, because I saw the headline and I was like, oh, Gretzky, Brian Trachier, one, two, down the middle. And then I opened your piece.

I'm like, ah, here comes the caveat. And there goes Brian Trotchea. And the reality is I had to do that because otherwise you get team coach runs away with it. Like guys like Rocket Richard was a coach for one year. And you go down the list to other Doug Harvey, guys like that. And that's just because very often in NHL history, and this wasn't really the case with Trache, but teams, especially newer teams struggling to sell tickets, would just grab a superstar, drop him behind the bench. And then after a year, you go, oh, he's not very good at this. and they would move on to something else.

Even Gordy Howe was offered the job. He was going to be the first head coach of the New York Islanders. They offered him that job. And he thought about it, but he decided not to and kept playing in the WHA. And how different does that history work if, you know, instead of Al Arbor eventually taking over there, maybe it's Gordy Howe behind the bench for this new expansion team. All right, Sean, as always, time to bring in our pal, Jesse Granger from Vegas for a little Granger Things brought to you by BetMGM, the exclusive.

a betting partner with the athletic and got to ask you how you're feeling now. A series that look like, maybe the Golden Knights could wrap it up in five or six, here we go. It's a Game 7 on your plate. Yeah, deja vu for Vegas and the Vegas Golden Knights fans. This is the third year in a row that we're heading for a Game 7

after the Golden Knights took a 3-1 lead. And it feels similar to those other series. I mean, you go back to two years ago, obviously the San Jose series that will live in everyone's minds forever, because of the way it ended with the five-minute major. But in that series, the Golden Knights were scoring at will. You look at those first few games, they took that 3-1 lead. They were scoring a lot of goals.

And then suddenly they look like the team that's playing not to lose and not a team that's trying to impose their will. And then the same thing happened last year against Vancouver. They were, it looked like that they were going to mop the floor with Vancouver. And then suddenly, no goals when they need them most with three wins in the series. And now this series against Minnesota, they go up to Minnesota. they scored nine goals in two games to take that commanding three one series lead. It looked like all things were trending to, okay, they finally figured this team out.

They're the better team. They're going to take care of them. And these last two games, they've looked very timid. They don't get going until Minnesota gets on the board and then try to ratchet up the intensity once they're down, but then it's a little too late. So it's going to be interesting to see what happens tomorrow night at T-Mobile. Obviously a huge game for a team with very high expectations entering the playoffs. And you know, you were telling Sean and I before, Like Vegas and Colorado is the series. Like if you had picked one series before that everyone wanted to see unequivocally in round two, I think it was that.

Yeah, probably some people might say Carolina, Tampa or whatever. But this one to me was the one everyone had circled. And what you were telling us is that, man, even like right now you could theoretically put some money down on a round two series involving Vegas and Colorado, even though it hasn't come to pass yet. Yeah, this series has, it's felt like these two teams have been on a collision course for each other since January, since the season started. I mean, they've been amongst the favorites to win the cup, both Vegas and Colorado, since the beginning. They have absolutely trounced everyone else in the division all year long. And it was kind of a like, all right, let's get this undercard over with so we can get to the main event.

And Minnesota had other plans. And this was kind of the nightmare scenario, right? When we were watching Colorado and Vegas, fight it out for first place down the, the stretch. And you remember Vegas had those games where they weren't using full lineups and Colorado nips in and takes top spot. This was the scenario we're thinking of. First of all, the fact that Minnesota obviously is a good enough team that they could pull off an upset.

But even if they don't, even if Vegas wins game seven, Colorado's gets the brooms out, gets their series over quick. They're sitting home. They're resting up, getting healthy. And this series is going to be a seven-game battle. it's going to be real tough, even if the Golden Knights do win game seven and do hold serve at home, they're going to be in real tough against a rested Colorado team when Vegas is going to be anything but. Definitely. And Vegas is a little banged up now, to say the least.

They had four guys that are regulars in their lineup missing last night in game six. And obviously Max Patch Reddy is the big one, leads the team in goals. He is the best goal scorer on a team that lacks true. goal scores. He fills that role for them and he's been missing for this entire playoffs. They don't know when they're going to get him back, if they're going to get him back. And then last night, they're also missing Braden McNabb, who is a late add to the NHL's COVID protocol list. They're missing Ryan Reeves, who was a late scratch. And Peter DeBore said that wasn't a healthy scratch. He had something going on. We haven't found out what yet.

And Tomash Nossick, who also got injured during this series. So they have four regular starters that are missing from this series. The only, the only counter I'd give to how different this is going to be if the Golden Knights do survive this series is for the last three years, Vegas has had the easy road. They have cruised through the majority of the playoffs, and they have always been where Colorado is. They've always been that team waiting for the rest of the series to finish. And I, like, I've had the conversation so many times with the coach about like rest versus Rust, and it hasn't won them a cup. So many times they've gotten to rest while the other team battles. And then when that next series starts, it looks like the other team is better prepared for that

battle and they've been through it and they're, they're already in that mode. Whereas the Golden Knights, like Dallas in the Western Conference Finals, we saw it. Vegas had kind of cruised through Chicago and then they had a little scare against Vancouver, but they knew they were better than that Vancouver team. Well, Dallas was battling Colorado and Dallas caught them off the jump. And I just think, while yes, it's ideal to be healthy. And if they don't have Max Patch Radio, they're going to be in trouble regardless. I do think that there could be some positives to having to battle against a team as good as Minnesota in the first round for Vegas. Well, as the first round is wrapping up,

why don't we just kind of see what trends you've seen so far here as some of these series are headed to a sixth or seventh game? Let's start with Carolina and Nashville. And I think a lot of people thought maybe Nashville could do what the Minnesota Wilder doing, which is kind of punch above their weight, hang around, maybe pull off an upset. If you see Saros gets hot,

what are you seeing as that series heads to a sixth game? Yeah, it's been a lot of fun. And to me, the story of this series is the homecrack. crowds. Both stadiums have been, I think, 12,000 each in Carolina and Nashville. The atmospheres have been awesome on TV. I'm sure in person, they're even better. And the home team is 5 and 0 in this series. They are taking care of business on home ice. So that leads you to believe that Nashville is the team to bet in game six. But Carolina is a minus 145 favorite. And to me, that's one, obviously Carolina has been the better team this year. But also, I'm looking at trends and team

team that wins game five and the series is tied two to go up three two obviously has a better chance to win and they win 79% of the time but to me the more important part of that is out of the 214 times that the team that won to go up three two has went on to win the series 70% of that time it's in game six they don't even let it get to game seven so historically a team wins to go up three two they win to win to win the next game to win the series four two a lot more often than it goes to game seven. So I think that's the, that's the trend there. And then if that ends up going to game seven, um, looking at the trends all time, Carolina is five and three all time in game sevens. And they are a perfect three and oh in rally, which is where that game seven would be. So if that game

goes to a game seven, hurricanes have been incredibly good there at home. Nashville one and two all time in game sevens and one on the road. So, so what do you guys think about that? Home team's five and in this series, do you think Nashville keeps that going? Boy, this feels to me like one of those things where I'll be honest, I had already moved on. I saw Carolina win those first two games. I thought, yeah, taking care of business. Nashville claws back, a couple of double overtime wins. I'm thinking they've got some momentum here.

They've got something. And then that fifth game, rather, goes into overtime. You're thinking here it goes. When I see Carolina win that game, there's a part of me that goes. That was Nashville shot. now this is Carolina series to win and I see them closing it out. Yeah, I tend to think the same way. I was done.

Two nothing. I thought this was going to be a sweep. And for Matt Duchayne of all people, right? The much maligned Matt Duchet to get the overtime winner in game three, you thought, oh, wow, like that's a plot twist that didn't see coming. I'd love for this to go to a seventh game. My biggest disappointment in the first round, I think, is that we didn't see a game seven of Florida and Tampa. So if we get a seventh game in the other series,

I think that would be pretty cool. Definitely. Now, we talked about this at the top of the show, Jesse, is that Montreal, Toronto has been, at least from an entertainment standpoint, it's been disappointing, it's been overwhelming, hasn't lived up to the hype. From a betting perspective here,

I'm curious about the line so far, the haps just can't score. Like, the Montreal Canadians can't score. And I'm wondering how that's kind of played out from a betting perspective here. Yeah, so that's exactly where I'm going with these trends. This series, the over-under on these games has been low, five and a half. The over-unders are generally somewhere between five and six,

and they've been five-and-a-half for every game this series. And despite it being that low, they've still gone under in three of the four games. The only game that did go over was game two, and that was a five-one win for Toronto. And that took an empty net goal by Alex Kerfoot late to get it over that total. So if you had the over in that game, you weren't feeling particularly good until the final minute you get an empty net goal to cover. You're happy. But that wasn't the right side. So I'd say the right side has been the under in almost every game in this series, three of the four. And that's because these two goalies have been awesome. You mentioned Montreal's having a hard time scoring. Jack Campbell, four point two goals saved above average or above expected. He's fifth in the league.

Kerry Price above him with four point six goals saved above average. They have both been spectacular in net. Carrie Price is holding Montreal. in games that they probably don't belong to be in at times. Jack Campbell, like you said, Montreal can't score much of anything. In his last three games, he stopped 82 of 84 shots. I think the, if you're looking for a way to bet this series, I wouldn't bet a side. I'd take the under. It's been the right side almost every game.

If you are looking at sides, Toronto's a minus 220 favorite tonight. And favorites of 200 or more in this playoffs are 7 and 1 so far. So obviously outstanding. You'd expect that out of favorites that good. The only holdup is the one was game one when Toronto was a 200 plus favorite and lost to Montreal. So there is some hesitancy on that. But yeah, those are the trends for that game. I'd love to get in the mind of a Leafs fan like Sean and ask him what his odds are in his mind.

Because it feels like the money line in your mind would be like this is. Those odds seem really steep to me, really steep. I cannot imagine the confidence to go that high. high up the numbers, but yeah, I'll be keeping my wallet in my pocket on this one. Yeah. And Jesse, the last series is the one we started with. Just give us a sense of the game seven line for Vegas and the Minnesota Wild here. Yeah, despite blowing the last two games, Vegas still a minus 165 favorite in game seven, which is pretty sizable. And it makes sense when you look at the historical numbers. It's funny because we've talked about on this show how in the

NHL playoffs, home ice advantage hasn't meant a lot. At times, there are years where the home teams lose the majority of games. But in game seven, funny enough, home ice seems to matter a little bit more. And maybe that's the point. Maybe these coaches, the reason you fight all season to get that home ice is maybe not so much for the grand scheme of things in the playoffs, but for if we have a game seven, we get to play it on our home ice. And all time in the NHL, home teams are 105 and 76. in game 7, 58% of the time. So that obviously favors the Golden Knights. This series is a little different, considering they were up 3-1, I went back and looked. And teams that have come back to from down 3-1 to force a game 7, that's happened 60 times in NHL history. And it's been a pretty even split. The team that was up 3-1 that's blown the lead has won 31 of those. And the team that was down 3-1 has 1-29. So almost a perfect 50-50 split in that, which I think if you're a Vegas fan, that makes you feel good. because you lose the last two, and I went into this, looking at these numbers, expecting the team that had won two in a row to have won the majority of the game sevens, just because that's just, that's how the series feels. That it's what you expect. But clearly that hasn't happened as the team up 3-1 has actually won more of those games. The only thing Vegas does have going against it is the wild are 3 and 0 all time in game sevens, and all three have been on the road. They've won twice in Colorado and once in Vancouver. So this team historically, has been able to get it done on the road in game seven. The Golden Knights are 0 and 2 trying to

close series out at T-Mobile Arena, which is hard to believe, considering the home ice advantage they've had there, but they have struggled to close teams out there. And the final stat I'll give you is Pete DeBoer, 5 and 0 all time in game sevens. One was against the Golden Knights to help San Jose complete that 3-1 comeback. And then last year against Vancouver, they avoided the 3-1 collapse by beating Vancouver. So Pete DeBore has really good success in these games. It's funny because the numbers kind of point both directions. You can, whichever side you want, you can use some numbers to justify it. Man, it feels like a total, especially when you lay out the 3129 number. It feels like a flip of the coin. A complete flip of the coin in this game seven. Jesse Granger, as always, we love the visits.

Boy, it's going to be interesting to watch the game seven. We look forward to your coverage of that in the athletic coming up on the weekend. And then we'll get you again in this same spot. next week. Thanks, guys. Thanks, Jesse. All right, Sean, as always, we wrap up the podcast with a little this week in hockey history. Because you know what? It's right up our alley.

We love the hockey history. We love quirky stories and trivia. And let's start with this one. May 25, 1994. May 25th, 1994. The New York Rangers are down three games to two in the Eastern final. Every devil's fan just turned the podcast off as soon as they heard that date. the end, yeah, May 25th, 94. And Mark Messier delivers his game six guarantee. The Rangers would win in New Jersey. And, you know, do you think that this is an overhyped moment in hockey history? Like, do we put too much emphasis on the fact that Messier guaranteed a win? I mean, the key to this is he gets a third period hat trick. It's not like he guaranteed the win and had a secondary assist and they won four.

to two. Hmm. He gets the hatrick. He gets the hatrick. Did take an empty netter to get the hatrick. He can point that. And it's a great call by it was Gary Thorne, right, who had it, the call back in the day. It's a great call, right?

And so my only question is, though, is this like everything else involving the 94 Rangers and apologies of my pal Nick Kipriosis list because I love Nick to death? But is this overhyped? The 94 Rangers overhyped? I think it probably is. I mean, look, if you're a hockey fan and maybe either you're young or you only became a fan relatively recently in the last decade or so, and you're just going by NHL marketing to try to remember what the 90s are like, you know all about, you would be convinced that

Mark Messier was the biggest star in the league, that the New York Rangers were the biggest dynasty in the league, and that the most interesting playoff series. in the history of the league was not the 94th Stanley Cup final, which is kind of oddly not remarried in the same way, but that conference final against the devils. And look, it was a great story. The guarantee, I've been having some fun with it, but that was a great story. That was actually cool. It was one of the rare cases in hockey or even sports history where somebody made a guarantee, and they personally were a big part of cashing it in. obviously the

I think I guess today would be the anniversary of the Stefan Mattoe goal which is an ugly overtime goal but still a very memorable one great call and all of that look the New York Rangers winning the Stanley Cup that year snapped a 54 year drone

the Toronto Maple Leafs my team right now have a 54 year drone if they win the Stanley Cup this year I expect nobody to ever stop talking about it for a couple of decades at least so but having said that Yeah, there's kind of a running joke that if you randomly flip on the NHL network at any given moment, there's about a 50-50 chance they will be talking about Mark Messier and the guarantee and the Matole goal and the Stanley Cup.

I don't know if it's overhyped, but I feel like everything else that happened in that era is maybe underhyped when it comes to how the NHL chooses to remember its history. You know, and you bring up, we're talking about, like, Messia delivered with a third period hat trick, right? Like, I don't have the stats in front of me, but like, like, Joe Namath has arguably the most famous guarantee in sports, right? It says the Jets are going to win Super Bowl three against the heavily favored Colts. Like, Joe Namath's stat line was terrible in the Super Bowl. Like, he was like, like, forget Trent Dilford. When people say to you, who's a game manager, it was Joe Namath. He didn't do anything.

And at least Messier had a hat trick with their back, you know, to the wall. And the other thing is, and to give credit words, do, his guarantee was a pretty good guarantee. Like there's, there have been a lot of, and part of it is because the Messia started was so cool, it's like we've been chasing that story ever since trying to make it happen again to the point where these days, like if a team's got their back to the ropes and somebody will say like, how are you guys feeling about winning this series? or coming back and somebody will say, yeah, you know, yeah, we feel good. And we're all like, was that a guarantee? Did he just guarantee victory?

Remember, like a few years ago, like Mike Babcock saying, see you later to like some arena staff and people are like, is that a guarantee? Is he guaranteeing that they're going to be back for the next game? And it's like, no. But in this case, I don't think he actually used the word guarantee, but he did say, we are going to win this game, which is more than we usually. again. Usually it's just somebody going, yeah, we feel good. And then we're like, that's a guarantee. And then afterwards, they lose and it's never spoken up again. Yeah. One of my favorite stories of that is,

and it's the NBA, when the Cleveland Cavaliers were down three one to Golden State in the finals, whatever, I think it was 2016. And they're down three one. And I think their head coach was Tyron Lou. And Tyron Liu went to every player and said, give me like a thousand, like everyone had to cough up like a thousand dollars because they're NBA players they just have that kind of money on them right it's like nothing uh and everybody had to give them like a thousand bucks and he went and he's like look I'm putting it up in the ceiling and he put it up in the visiting coach's room ceiling in golden state and says we're coming back to get this and it's funny how you had they use that as motivation right like yeah I've never heard that story did they make it back did they get their money back yeah yeah they

but I always laugh too because I always think well I mean they would have visited Golden State the year. I'm sure nobody would have looked in the ceiling. He could have gotten the money back. One other this date and hockey history. Actually, a quick question too on Messier. What's the more impressive Mark Messier Stanley Cup for you? 94 with the Rangers or 1990 with the Oilers? Because remember, 90 with the Oilers, they lose Gretzky. You figure it's the end of it, but they win the cup. What's the more impressive Mark Messier Cup? And weren't even a great team in the regular season. I think that one. is more impressive, the 94 one is a better story. I mean, that was just that that rangers

drought had taken on a life of its own. It's the biggest market in the league. Mark Messier, as much as I kind of joked about it, probably was at that point the league's biggest, most markable star other than Wayne Gretzky and maybe Marinole, but even that, I think he was, he was right up there. So that really was a really big deal. And it was, you know, for Gary Bettman, his first full season coming in his commissioner. You couldn't ask for anything better than your biggest market ending the drought with this big star lifting the Stanley Cup. And then, of course, we went right into a lockout and burned all that momentum to get a work stoppage instead.

All right. Well, the year before, Mark Messier won the Stanley Cup at Edmonton for the final time in 1990, their provincial rivals, Calgary Flames won the Stanley Cup. This week in hockey history, Sean, Calgary Flames, May 25th. 1989 become the only team to ever clinch the Stanley Cup at the Montreal Forum. It had only been done by the Habs, but they become the first and only team to win a Stanley Cup on the road in Montreal. And everyone remembers Lanny McDonald coming out of the penalty box, scoring a goal

on Patrick Guilmore. I ended up having a huge role in the third period, ice the win. McDonald gets the cup. And where do you rank that? Is that the best end to a career in hockey history? Is there any, like, is there, you know, it's right up there. It's right up there, right?

I mean, that was kind of almost the original old guy without a cup story of, you know, Lanny McDonald, not just a beloved veteran, but even look the role. I mean, right, this guy looks like a, you didn't even have to be a hockey fan to look at that guy and go, okay, this is, I'm rooting for this guy. It looks like a grizzled old prospector. and he finally gets his hands on the cup in his final game. I would say that was the best ending to a career in hockey history right up until Ray Bork, which I think now is kind of the modern equivalent of that and the one that people think of.

I know there are fans who will still go on YouTube and call up that clip of him getting the cup and get choked up thinking about it. So I think Ray Bork has probably taken over that title, but Lanny McDonald was right up there because there's not a lot of guys who get to go out with the championship, not just in hockey, but in sports in general. Yeah, I thought for sure you were going to say, come on, the correct answer is Joe Thornton, but maybe we'll have to revisit that. Yeah, we can pre-record that and then we'll use it a few weeks.

Okay, so I'm going to give you another work assignment here as we wrap up the show. Because I know you take a lot of your kind of cool, quirky ideas, from amazing suggestions and questions for the athletic subscribers. They'll fire in questions to your mailbag or in the comment section. And I got one for you. Just based on this and you say, you know, not a lot of people in sports history get to leave with a championship.

Okay? And I was thinking about this the other day. I don't know why this guy came into my mind, but I was looking at his career page on hockey reference. I'm like, oh, Brian Scroodland won a Stanley Cup as a rookie and then won a Stanley Cup in his final season in the NHL. How many guys in the post-expansion era? Because obviously pre-expansion,

your odds were probably maybe pretty good if you play for the Habs or, like, you know, you could have started your career with a cup and ended it with it. It wouldn't have been that crazy. How many guys would be like Brian Scrueland that in their rookie season they won a Stanley Cup and in their final season, they also won a Stanley Cup?

Scroolyn did it with the Habs at 86 and the Dallas Stars in 99. I'm thinking that's a short list. Is Brian, no, I was going to say Brian Trotche, but no, obviously he didn't, he didn't win, he won at the end of his career, but I'm thinking it's a short, it's a short list. Yeah, it can't be a long list. There's nobody jumps to my mind right away. And certainly with Skridland, I think those would have been his only two cups too, right, which would have been that there's probably a few guys who maybe had multiple ones, especially in the, in the dynasty eras. But yeah, that's a real good one. I'll have to dig into that. Yeah, maybe if a listener has another name for us in addition to Brian Scrulyne, maybe they can fire it to us. And remember, you can always get a hold of us by dropping us an email, The Athletic Hockey Show at gmail.com,

The athletic hockey show at gmail.com. You can also drop us a voicemail 845-4-4-5-84-59. Sean, this was a ton of fun. As always, the hour just flew by. I tell you, fingers crossed for you. I say this in all sincerity. Fingers crossed for you. When we get back to do the show next week,

we're talking about the Toronto Maple Leafs and Winnipeg Jets matchup, just for your sake. I appreciate that. And yeah, if you're not following the series, but you tune into the podcast next week, and it's Ian and a co-host, that'll give you a pretty good sense of how the rest of that series went. Yeah, listen, enjoy the rest of that series.

So we'll do this again next week. And thanks, everybody, for listening to us. Like I said, we'll be back at it. On Thursday of next week, I'll be back in this chair with Haley Salvean coming up on Monday to wrap up the weekend that was. And if you're not a subscriber with us, you can join us at theathletic.com slash hockey show.