The Athletic Hockey Show - New season resolutions, John Vogl on Jack Eichel situation hanging over Buffalo Sabres, Arthur Staple on the New York Islanders' push for the Cup, and more

Episode Date: October 7, 2021

With the opening of the NHL season less than a week away, Ian and Sean discuss resolutions for the "new year", including cutting Kraken fans some slack as they navigate their first season. Then, they are joined by Sabres beat writer John Vogl to discuss Jack Eichel, fan optimism levels for this year, and put on their marketing team hats to come up with some team slogans.Arthur Staple then joins the crew to discuss the Islanders' push for the Cup, starting the season with a lengthy road trip, and if they are a "boring" team. Continuing the guest cavalcade is "Granger Things" as Jesse Granger brings some fantasy hockey sleeper picks this week. Also, in "This Week in Hockey History", a look back at the trade that sent Mark Messier to the New York Rangers.Have a question for Ian and Sean? Email [e-mail] or leave a VM at [phone]!Join The Athletic Hockey Show’s official fantasy hockey pool on OfficePools.com: http://www.officepools.com/invite/classic/m/HAFE2H6Q Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back, everybody. It's another edition of the Athletic Hockey Show coming your way on Thursday. It's Ian Mendez and down goes Brown. Sean McIndoo with you for the next hour or so. And if you've been listening to the podcast this week, you know, we've been kind of bouncing around the National Hockey League with their beatwriters for the most intriguing storylines heading into opening night. And in this episode, the podcast, we'll connect with a couple of writers in the state of New York.

We'll connect with John Vogel. Talk about all things Buffalo Sabres. And yes, we'll get an update on the. Jack Eichel Saga and then Arthur Staple will join us as well to talk about the New York Islanders and the expectations on that team that appears to be on the precipice of going to the Stanley Cup. Jesse Granger will be by for Granger Things and this will be a useful segment as a lot of you are getting set for your fantasy drafts and hockey pools coming up. So Jesse Granger will maybe give us some ideas on players to take and maybe players to stay away from.

We'll open up the mailbag and we'll wrap it up as always with a little this week hockey history, the 30th anniversary, actually, this week of one of the biggest trades in NHL history. But we'll kick things off by saying hello to Sean McAdoe, down goes brown to kick off this episode of the athletic hockey show. And I was thinking last couple of days, how do we start to show? What do we do? How do we launch this podcast? And then you drop the gift into my lap this morning with your latest column, which is all about, hey, let's have some, and people are very familiar with New Year's resolutions, but if you know your work, they're probably familiar with your new seasons resolutions.

So it's kind of a way for us to look at the season, maybe be, as, you know, as hockey fans were really known as open-minded, flexible, right? We love change. We're very, yeah, very much. But you know what, this is, this is, I write this column just about every year. And it's the exact same concept. right new year new you you you make a few resolutions maybe you stick to them you probably don't uh same deal here why not uh you know we're we're none of us are perfect and we could all probably

up our game a little bit and then this is written from a fan's perspective i'm looking at it and saying as a fan what could we do to maybe be a little bit better a little bit different just say you know something to keep in mind and there there are suggestions and people are well i've got five ideas people are willing to take or welcome to take whichever ones they want, take none, take all of them. But these are just some thoughts I put out there of, hey, maybe this is something that we can keep in our minds as this new season dawns in front of us. Okay. So the one that I think is really important, I feel like this should be easy enough for us to do, which is let's not get on a high horse here and look down at hockey fans in Seattle. They're new to this, right?

I think this is a really important point. You let off with this. But we really do need to be a little bit better about, you know, not gatekeeping. I think it was the term to use when it comes to new hockey fans, right? Yeah. This is one of the worst habits that we have as hockey fans is that we complain constantly that this sport doesn't have enough fans. There's not enough coverage.

This TV network never talks about it. This sports personality never mentions it. but then whenever they do, we just sit back and we wait for them to make the smallest little mistake and we jump all over and we say, ah, you're not a real fan. And, you know, there has to be a middle ground between being somebody who doesn't care about the NHL at all and being a diehard true blue fan, you don't just jump from one to the other. There's this whole middle ground where you're kind of finding your way. And look, this sport is kind of confusing for the newbies. And this league certainly is confusing for the nobs. And we've got to be a little bit more welcoming and not turn it into a contest to look down and, you know, and all this other stuff.

And look, I do get it. I say in the piece, I think some of this comes from a good place in the sense that we're very defensive about this sport. We know that this is not, especially down in the United States, not a very popular sport. We know it doesn't get enough respect. We've heard all the dumb punchlines and the lazy analysis and all of that. And so we get our backs up. and we get defensive. But that isn't something that we need to be taken out on new fans,

especially in a new market like Seattle. There's going to be fans that don't understand how icing works or don't understand off sides or what's the deal with the line changes and this and that. Let them learn. Answer some questions if they have a question. Don't look down. Don't roll your eyes when somebody doesn't know as much about the sport as you do as somebody who may have been watching it for decades

or have it passed down from your family or however you became a fan. let's be a little bit more welcoming. Let's save the dunks and the quote tweets and all that stuff anytime anyone makes the smallest little mistake. And let's see if we can actually grow this fan base for a change. Okay. So you're saying let's be patient with fans on the rules. You know, they got to learn.

It's going to be a slow process, which brings us to goalie interference, which is another one of your new season's resolution. So what you're saying, Sean, is I'm not allowed this season or I should try to really not do this. I'm not allowed if there's a goal that's under review for a goal of interference, I'm not allowed to tweet, well, it's a roll of the dice or your guess is as good as mine. You're telling me, hey, back off on that and stop saying you don't understand goal of interference, right?

I've been banging this drum for a while and I said that the column is aimed at it from a fan's perspective. This is my one that's more aimed at the media, my colleagues. because I've been banging this drum for a while now. Goalie interference is not simple. It's not a great rule. We shouldn't even be reviewing it, is my opinion. I don't like replay review for goalie interference at all, but we have it. And there's a rule book, and the rule is not as complicated as you've been led to believe.

We kind of went over it. I wrote a whole long explainer post about it a few months ago that I linked to in today's piece, if you missed it. It's not that bad. And it drives me a little bit crazy when I see people in the media, especially broadcasters who clearly don't know the rule because it's your job to know this stuff. And if, you know, yes, okay, nobody's going to be an expert on the entire rulebook, but you either have taken the time to think about it and to learn about it,

or you haven't, in which case, don't get up and tell everyone that it's incomprehensible and impossible and they're flipping coins and all of this stuff because they're not. It's actually pretty predictable. If you know the rule, 90% of the time you get the exact result that you expect. And, you know, especially if you're a broadcaster, and I'm sure we have a ton of national broadcasters listening to this podcast and taking their advice from me, please take a look at the room. And please don't be on the air saying, well, I don't even know if this matters or what are they looking at. It's really your job to know. And if you know, then you'll be able to explain it to your audience and then the fans will know.

and maybe this thing that we've been told is confusing and incomprehensible, we'll all realize that it's not anywhere near as bad as we've been led to believe. Okay. And the last resolution I want to hit on is it's a fun one. And it's a great debate in social media because, and what you're doing is you're preparing our North American listeners. Look, we are very mindful of the fact that not everybody who listens to us on the athletic hockey show is based in North America.

But we do think that the majority of our listeners are here. And so, Sean, you've decided to go ahead and press the fast forward button to the Olympics in Beijing, where there's going to be a lot of games. Look, the time difference from Eastern standard time in North America to Beijing is exactly 12 hours. So when it's 7 p.m. in Beijing, it's 7 a.m. in the East Coast of North America. So we're going to have to likely get used to some odd times of games. or if there's an afternoon game there, 2 p.m. That's 2 a.m. for us.

And you have gone ahead and you're planting your flag. You're putting it firmly in the ground saying, hey, don't tell me I can't tweet about this game in real time. If you don't want to see a spoiler and you want to sleep in, that's fine. But stay off on social media, right? That's it. That's it. Stay off social media. Don't turn on your car radio to the sports radio station.

if, you know, the games we've seen the schedule for Canada and the U.S., they're playing some games at midnight, so, you know, most of us will wake up in the morning not knowing what happened. Other games are going to be at 9 a.m. Look, we all want to watch games in prime time. We all love, you know, sitting down at 7, 8 o'clock to watch our game. We got spoiled a little bit, 2002, 2010. Both were in North America, so, you know, we got to watch games played at the time

that we're used to watching NHL games. It's not the case this time. and look, anybody can watch and enjoy however they want to. If you want to try to go the whole day without knowing whether Canada beat the U.S. And you want to sit down after you put the kids to bed

and crack open a beer and watch the game there with no spoilers, great, good for you. You absolutely can watch a game. Don't come on Twitter where you follow a bunch of hockey writers and yell at everyone for talking about a game that is hours old by that point.

We're going to talk about it. That's half the fun of sports. it's up to you if you don't want to be spoiled to do your best to stay away from the places you know there are going to be spoilers. And you know what, let me just pass on as we wrap this up here. Let me just pass one the story of how a sporting event got ruined for me, spoiled for me. And this is a great reminder. Like you said, hey, don't tune into the radio. Okay.

So as you know me very well, you've known me for a long time. And I've always been a Dallas Cowboys fan, okay? Huge Dallas Cowboys fan. Back in the day in the mid-90s, I was in New Zealand. for Christmas time. My parents were down there. And the Cowboys were playing a playoff game. I think it was against the Carolina Panthers.

And the game was going to be aired later after it really happened. And so I'm like, okay, this is great. What's going to happen? My mom had the radio on. It's like some, you know, we're in the middle of nowhere in New Zealand. And the news comes on. And then the last thing the announcer says, should I try the New Zealand accent? No, no, I don't think so.

No, I don't think so. But basically they're like, and a shocker in American football as the defending Super Bowl champion, Dallas Cowboys, have been taken out by the upstart Carolina Panthers. I'm like, oh, no. So that is your reminder. Even if you're in New Zealand, just keeping radio off. Wow, that's rough. All right, Sean, you know, one of the fun things we're doing this week on the athletic hockey show,

we're kind of going around the league and, you know, connecting with our beatwriters from various cities, biggest storylines around the NHL. And let's be honest here, Sean, before we bring John Vogel in, Buffalo Sabres might have the most intriguing storyline of any team in the National Hockey League, right? Yeah, as far as

open storylines, they're right up there. And it's not often, yeah, a lot of times you look at a team that everyone thinks is going to be bad. And that's a boring team, or at least for that year. You just sort of say, well, we'll check in a year or two,

from now and see how you're doing. But not right now. The Sabres are a very interesting team from a couple of different angles that we'll get into. Yeah, and let's do that with John Vogel covers the Buffalo Sabres for us with the Athletic. Welcome back to the athletic hockey show. John, how are you? I'm doing well, thanks. Yeah, it's always a pleasure to be here. Since the last time, the big thing hasn't changed, though, James is still here. Yeah. Okay. So I got to ask you, the last time we had you on the athletic hockey show at some point in this summer, John Vogel told us he was sleeping with his cell phone on all night because in case, the Eichl tray came out at 2 a.m., he's going to pop out of bed,

he's ready to go. Is John Vogel still sleeping with the phone on at his bedside? I was for most of the summer. Finally, the last week of August, I put it away for a little while and enjoyed some golf and said hello to my wife again. And good to see her. But it got to a point where you can tell nothing was going to change. And unfortunately, we're still at that point.

It's just, I know there's a lot of frustrated people inside the organization. Obviously, Jacks, I want to hear from his people. They're all frustrated. So, yeah. But it just never seems that there's an end in sight, unfortunately. I'm looking at the Buffalo Sabres fan survey that you published today. and one of the questions is when will Jack Geichel be traded? The number one answer is next offseason.

And the number two answer right behind that, both at just under 40%, is next, between January 1st and the trade deadline. So Sabres fans seem to think pretty overwhelmingly that we got a long road left to go on this thing. What's your view on that? when, if not imminent, when is this thing going to get resolved? Are Sabers fans right? Can we, can we be waiting until next summer? The big issue, it's the log jam that's causing all this. The savers are asking, they're asking price in a trade is for an elite center, a number one guy. They don't want to get anything less than what teams would pay for a number one center.

However, 31 other teams don't see a number one center. They see an injured guy who's got to get healthy first. the savers and Jack Eichael disagree on how best to get him healthy. And until he's healthy or until the savers realize they're trading an injured player, nothing's going to change. And there's just no signs that this logjam's coming up, which is why fans have become pessimistic that it's going to end anytime soon. So, like, what are the options on the table here? Like, just walk us through because we've got a week to go to the regular season, John.

What are the realistic options on the table for Kevin Adams? For Kevin Adams, it's either convinced Jack Eichel to have fusion surgery on his neck, which is not going to happen. Jack is refusing to do that with his right as a human to not do that. Or the Sabres could let him have the artificial disc replacement surgery that he prefers. However, Kevin Adams has steadfastly said the doctors are against that. they're not blinking on that either. So the only answer is to one of those has to blink on which surgery, or Adams has to realize the teams aren't going to give him what he wants for an injured player.

Are there any teams out there that would be on Jack Eichael's side as far as the surgery? Clearly the Sabres aren't. That's where this whole impasse is coming from. Is there not one of the other 31 teams going, you know what? Yeah, we could live with that. So trade them to us and we'll give him permission. and then we go from there. From what I've heard, yes, there are a couple teams, at least a couple of teams that would let him have the surgery he wants.

However, they don't want to give up what the savers are asking at the moment. And that's where the big thing, I mean, it's just, as Kevin Adams said, last time he talked, we viewed Jack Eiffel went healthy as an elite player, but he's not healthy. And they're still asking an elite asking price for him. And teams just don't want to give that up at the moment until they're sure that, that he's going to get healthy. And while they agree that it's, while they agree that that surgery might be right for Jack,

they're not willing to take all the risk on at the moment. You know what I think? And Sean brought up your fan survey, which dropped in the athletic on Thursday. And I want to ask you about the optimism level for this season on the ice. Eichael obviously plays a huge role in that. And maybe if they get some pieces for him, that will change.

I thought it was interesting in your survey, John, that people maybe inside Buffalo don't think it's going to be as bad as it was when they tank to get Jack Eichel in the first place. And those were two ugly years, right? Those were two awful years for the franchise. Were you surprised that a lot of Buffalo fans are like, yeah, it's going to be bad, but it's not going to be like 2014 bad? I was surprised because, yeah, the Sabres average 53 points during the tank.

And it was ugly hockey. But when I look at this roster and compare it to what they had back then, At least then they had some veteran guys who kind of knew it. I mean, I guess the fans right now are just hoping that all the young guys the Sabers brought in can really make some strides and make some jumps, guys like Casey Middlestad and Dylan Cousins, even down the line of guys like Rasmus Aspland. So what the Savers fans right now are hoping is those guys make jumps,

whereas they look back and it was just all journeyman veteran back then who you knew what their ceiling was and you knew how bad things were going to be. Now they know things are going to be bad, but they still have that little glimmer of hope that these young guys will make a stride and get a few more wins than those teams did, but it's going to be rough. It is going to be a rough year.

The fans have some optimism, maybe more than some of the outsiders will. Is that going to translate to them buying tickets to go and watch this team this year? No. That was the story of the preseason. Obviously, people look at this, I posted a few pictures of stands, and they were empty and people said, oh, who wants to go to a preseason game on a Monday night.

But that's not the point. The point was they announced ticket sales. They didn't announce actual attendance. And the ticket sales for the last game were 6,327. That's it. That includes season ticket holders because season ticket holders had to buy preseason tickets. This team used to cap their season ticket sales at 16,000 because of demand. They used to have a 3,000 or more person waiting list.

Now they can't even sell 6,400 season tickets. So in a 19,000-seat arena, they're going to need nightly walk-ups of 13,000 just to fill the building. And that's not going to happen. I mean, we could see some very, very ugly numbers on the attendance sheet this year. Okay. So you know what, maybe then this is the perfect time for a little exercise here on the athletic hockey show. We're going to create a crack Buffalo Sabres marketing department here.

And we're going to sit down and we're going to figure out what should the slogan for this team be. You know, I had the laugh when at one point John said it's going to be a rough year. And I thought, boy, that would have worked if Lindy was the head coach. You could have had some fun with that. What are we thinking here? If you are legitimately marketing the Buffalo Sabres, actually, let's pick the mind of Down Goes Brown here. Like, let's see the genius that he can come up with on short notice, no less, that we're, we're, in the Buffalo Sabres marketing meeting.

We know it's going to be like a 55, 60 point year. Guys, how are we selling our team? Boy, you know, I used to work in the marketing world. And thankfully, I never had a challenge quite like this. I mean, the slogan might be, come see how bad it can actually get. Maybe you just go for that. I mean, we're in October, right? It's spooky season, horror movies.

Or the other piece of it, I mean, look, if you legitimately want to market this team, I think given everything, this team is very, very ripe for us against the world. You know, nobody believes it literally nobody believes in this team. Everybody thinks they're going to finish dead last. Everybody thinks they're a complete right off. Yeah, so you embrace that. You say, you know, you lean into it. You can even if you, I'm not saying that the team would market it this way, you can even say,

hey, our best player doesn't even want to be here. That's how bad everyone thinks it's going to be. and then you turn it into a kind of, yeah, it's us against the world. And I have pointed out in one of the pieces I wrote a little while ago, take a look at the Sabres schedule, the first two, three weeks, the first 10 or 12 games. There's a lot of bad teams on that schedule. Now, the Sabres are a bad team. Sabers are a worst team than pretty much all of those bad teams.

But it's not inconceivable that this team could actually get off to a decent start. And if that happens, then everybody, you know, starts, hey, maybe the Sabers. are a little fight. We're in Ottawa here. We've seen it a couple times with the senators, right? They were the pesky sins and then they were the sickos. You can kind of get into that whole, you know, hey, nobody thinks, I thought we were supposed to lose 82 games. What's going on? How come we've started off pretty well?

And then you go from there. You do all that, you do it well. I might be able to get you up to 7,000 fans a game. And after that, I'll pass it over to John. He's got to do the list. Yeah, come on. So, John, Sean's slogan is, come see us in October play against some equally bad teams. That's his marketing slogan.

That's the best thing I could come up with. How can they connect with you? John, you know this fan base so well. How can they bridge the gap? How can they market and sell this team in Buffalo in the next few months? On short notice, I'm having some troubles. But the most marketable person right now in the organization is Don Granato. The fans have become big Granato fans, just because the way he talks, the way he's coached.

he's unlike Ralph Kruger, he's embraced an offensive system rather than defense. So they might lose five. We might lose five four instead of five, two. Could be a slogan, I guess. Come see some goals. That can work. That might work. Another one, the bills are obviously the talk of the town right now,

Super Bowl contender could be maybe Josh Allen will be in his suite today. Come see if you can wave at him. Because he does come to a few savers games. That's usually been the loudest ovation the last couple of years when they put him on the jimbo. But yeah, they're in a rough spot. And unfortunately, they know it. I did a couple season ticket holder stories this year.

And people who had canceled theirs even told their rep, he's like, I just, I don't envy you at all. I don't know what you're going to do. And that was kind of the response back was, yeah, we're in a rough spot. You know what? I got the slogan. If you're using Granado as your centerpiece, dawn of a new era. There it is.

There we go. Dawn of a new era. There we go. Okay. And I also like the secondary slogan of come see Josh Allen from a distance. And you guys did mention Ottawa. So Craig Anderson is going to be the starting goalie. So maybe there's some magic.

Yeah. That's one I think there were probably some fans in Ottawa going, Craig, is that like any relation to the guy who was our goalie 10 years ago? Is that like his kid or something? No, it's it is Craig Anderson. and you know what, he's a good guy. It would be a hell of a story if he could drag this team somewhere. Yeah, all right. Tell you what, we're going to wrap up with this.

And maybe Sean, I'll get your take on this first because this is a, you know, we're talking about the Sabres, but you guys have mentioned Ottawa a couple of times. Sean, I'll start with you on this one. Which gets solved first? Jack Eichol and his trade situation in Buffalo or Brady Kachuk signs an extension with Ottawa? I mean, I would go with the extension. But I mean, I'm just going to go ahead and read between the lines here and say that Ian Mendez is suggesting perhaps a Brady Kachuk, Jack Eichel trade, a little sign-in-trade?

Is that what you're hinting at? Yeah, happens at the same time is what I'm saying. There you go. All right. Take this clip. This will be how we'll, you want to market. This is how we'll market this podcast. Yeah.

John, last word to you. Do you think there's any chance Jack Eichol's situation in Buffalo gets resolved before Brady Kachuk in Ottawa? No. No, I just don't see an end in sight. There was a quick tweet sent out yesterday that, oh, there might be a breakthrough teams are getting the medicals. But then I talked with someone in Jack's camp, and they said teams have had the medicals out recently. So he'll believe it when he sees it, they said. So, yeah, I mean, that's kind of the thing.

That's all it is down Buffalo. We'll leave it when we see it, both on the ice and off. See, we're going to wrap up, and you just inadvertently came up with the actual marketing campaign right there. Buffalo Sabres will believe it when we see it. There we go. I love it. John, hey, listen, appreciate the time. And I think a lot of hockey fans across the country have appreciated the way that you've covered this whole Jack Eichel thing from a distance.

So we really appreciate you. Taking a few minutes and kind of setting up the Sabres. for us here on the athletic hockey show. It's always my pleasure to talk to you guys. So thanks for having me. Thanks, John. We're going to switch sides here. We're going to go from the bottom of the NHL with the Buffalo Sabres.

We're going to stay in the state of New York, though. And we're talking about the Islanders here because I think they're one of the most interesting teams in the National Hockey League. They've kind of been knocking on the doorstep of the Stanley Cup final last couple of years. And let's see if they have maybe put the pieces together to get over the hump. And we bring in Arthur Stapel, who does a terrific job, covering the Islanders for us here with the athletic. Arthur, how are you?

Good, fellas. How are you? All good. All good with us. So I want to know what's the feeling of Islanders fans, like I said, kind of on the doorstep of getting to the Stanley Cup final in consecutive years. There's a lot of people who think that, yeah, maybe this is the year for the Islanders. What is the feeling amongst kind of the fan base and the local media there as it pertains to the expectation levels?

I think there's a lot more confidence in the fan base than I've seen in a long, long time. I mean, it's, you know, it was not that justified, obviously, over the course of most of the 2010s and before that, because the team just wasn't where it needed to be. But the last couple of years, like you said, the results of getting within a game or a couple of games of the finals, I think has convinced a lot of people in the fan base, outside the fan base, that this team was legit. They obviously had some cap, you know, a cap crunch, like a lot of good teams. They lost a couple of their core guys in Jordan Eberley and Nick Letty and replaced them with very senior members of the NHL players group in Sedano Chara and Zach Porese. But it's still seen as a positive. They still feel like this core, especially with a healthy Anders Lee back on the ice after missing most of the last season on the playoffs. You know, I think I think there's a lot of confidence and especially in a division where there's some.

maybe some question marks about a couple of the other contenders. There's not as many question marks about this team, at least in the regular season, and certainly in the playoffs they've shown that they can take it up a notch. So, yeah, confidence is definitely the right word, and that's a rare one around the Islander fan base. We're talking about the Islander's roster and how good they can be. Do we know for a fact that they haven't acquired Connor McDavid at some point, and Lou Lamarillo just doesn't want to tell us?

What was the deal with that, that whole offseason of secrecy? and signing guys and just not announcing it? You know, I spent a lot of days wondering at myself about why this was all going on. I heard from a lot of other people around the league wondering why it was going on so long. But I think the lose mantra is if you have time, you use it. And I think if you want to paraphrase that a little bit, is if you have control of something, you can also use that for as long as you like. And he is firmly in control of their.

situation, you know, we don't even really have, they haven't even filed contracts for Parisei and Chara and a few of their RFAs still. So he is stretching the rules, I guess you'd call it, which is not a new thing for Lou Lamarillo, but he's doing it maybe some new and creative ways. And I think initially it was about keeping their true cap situation hidden from fellow GMs who are maybe negotiating trades or agents who are asking for certain amounts for for some of the guys that they were interested in or some of the guys that they wanted to resign. And then after a while, if you just get used to it and nobody's asking you, you don't have

to do it. You don't have to volunteer any information. So, you know, as odd as it is that other teams seem to, you know, offer up contracts and file them as soon as they're done. There are a lot of handshake agreements with guys this off season and still to this day. So maybe in a few days when they have to make their roster official, we'll actually see some numbers for sure on some of these guys. But it's a weird one, but it's Luz World, and we're all just sort of living in it.

And have you had a chance, Arthur, to take a tour of the new arena? I keep on to call it USB, but I know it's UBS. But have you had a chance to kind of get a little sneak peek or preview of that facility? Yeah, we saw it during the playoffs, the commissioner, went around with one of the co-owners, Sean Ladecki and, you know, the Oakview group that's built the arena and also did the one in Seattle. It's nice. To say that sounds funny because obviously it should be nice. It's billion dollars. It's brand new. But this is something that the Islanders and their fans have never experienced. I mean, I think I wasn't there. I was a little young when the

Nassau Coliseum opened 50 years ago, but I'm sure it looked terrible from about day four that it existed because it was just never a real it was not the era of the state of the art arenas in the 1970s and you know they managed to spruce it up a bit and and it certainly had all of its its charm and and kind of local flavor and I'm sure that there will be a lot of fans who miss it even though they're about to enter into an era of more modern technology and state of the art uh you know hosting capabilities for their home team a place that uh that everybody will enjoy that has all the amenities of a lot of the other newer arenas and probably more than that. It's going to be a strange situation for a lot of the long-suffering fans to have a team that

has high expectations and have a building that people like to be in. So it'll take a little getting used to, I think, for the fan base, but I think for everybody else, it's going to be a big step forward in this franchise. And just just to have the islanders be a destination team without. any real holes in their pitch, say, to free agents or anything like that with a winning team and a great facility and a great practice facility, it's a new era for them. And it's pretty amazing to see. So can I just ask a quick question.

I want to make sure I'm clear on this. Like, is the plan still they start on the road for like almost the first month of the season before getting a home game? Is that, am I right on that or am I off? You are. 13 games. Yeah. Five weeks.

Yeah. It's not one long continuous road trip. It's kind of the most haphazard. It's not like they knock out California and Western Canada and then come back. It's a lot of different places that they're going. A couple of them twice. They're going to play in Florida. They're playing the Panthers in Florida twice before they ever play a home game.

So that's a unique one. But if there's a team that's built for that kind of difficult early stretch, it's probably these guys because they are such a veteran group. You know, just in talking, there's been a couple other teams in the New York area that have done that when their buildings were just being built or being renovated. The Rangers did it back in 2013, 14. They were on the road, I think, for eight games and got pumped a couple of times out in California on that trip. And people were kind of wondering, that was Alan Vino's first year there. And then they turn on and go to the Stanley Cup finals that year.

So, you know, I think, and I think a lot of that had to do with a veteran group that had been together a long time. So this Islander team with Barry Trots, who doesn't really get flustered by much, Lou, obviously, nothing fazes him. And this is a group that's now been through the wars a little bit. So I think this is just one more wrinkle for them to handle. And even if they're not sitting above 500 when the 13 games are over, I think they're going to be able to see the big picture and not panic too much. You talked about the fans, the long-suffering fan base.

And certainly there's not too many groups in the NHL that could lay claim to that title as clearly as Islander fans can. So I'm going to ask you a question on behalf of them because I've had my share of interactions with Islander fans over the years and I know there's one subject that they kind of get their backs up over. So I want to lay it to rest once and for all.

This is a Barry Trots team. The goaltending is always good. It's a great defensive team. The Islanders have sort of become the team that we all think of when we imagine a two to one win. Here's my question. Once and for all,

is this version of the Islanders a boring team? Sometimes, I guess, would be my honest answer. They know how to melt it down, obviously, in the regular season, and in the playoffs, when the stakes are higher, maybe they just do it in a different way.

But I think anybody who watched, certainly the first two playoffs series against Pittsburgh and Boston this past spring, you know, they can score when they need to score. And I think the way that you see their lineup now, you know, you take Eberley away, which is, which is, you know, he was a top line right wing. But then you sign Kyle Palmeri,

who may not be the same kind of player as Jordan Eberley, maybe not as dynamic, but is an Islander type score. He scores goals within five feet of the net. Anders Lee is the same way. They've obviously got Matthew Barzal. Brock Nelson is a guy who's become a clutch playoff. player over the years. Obviously, they've got Jean-Gabriel Pazzo. Their fourth line is very well known with Casey Zegas. But these are all guys that made big contributions in the playoffs. And if you

can get that kind of scoring when you need it from four different lines as opposed to having a superstar or a couple superstars, I think the NHL has sort of proven, even without the Islanders being good, that that's the way you win. And, you know, it's great to have the high-end guys. But I think does anybody really believe Tampa would be back-to-back champions without that third line that really was came up big for them a lot in the last two post seasons and maybe will be a big problem for them that they're all that are all elsewhere now. So, you know, boring. I think it's a little bit in the eye of the beholder.

I think the Islanders, because their reach is not as big as some other teams, even some other teams that are local to this area, that's an easy way to dismiss them. But I think their fans love the way that they play. It embodies a lot of, you know, when you play that physical, grind it in your face style, that's a good way to get out a lot of years of frustration. And I think that's really what Islander fans love so much about this team is that they can take a punch or a couple of punches. They give the punches back. They score some ugly goals.

They kind of carry themselves with a little bit of, you know, cockiness, but also quiet confidence. you know, it's just, it's a perfect marriage of fan base and team in this era after all the decades of disappointment. And I think they love it. And I think, you know, I don't want to give a New Yorkie answer to are they a boring team? But I think the answer that most Islander fans would give would be who the F cares at this point. They don't care if they're boring as long as they win. Pretty fair. Boring Stanley Cup beats a six to five loss.

most fans would tell you. Exactly. Well, hey, listen, last question for you, Arthur. We'll keep it with a New Yorkie theme then. Can Islanders Rangers potentially be the best rivalry in the NHL this season, Arthur? You know, I think that really depends on the Rangers. They've got to get to another level to be able to compete. It was fascinating to me.

Obviously, the Tom Wilson situation with the Rangers was kind of the headline-making one and all the changes that happened in their front office and in their roster after that. But I think the real issue for the Rangers was a couple of games they played with the Islanders a week or so before when they were still in the playoff hunt and the Islanders just, just, you know, just put them down really, really forcefully. It was physical. It was, there was timely scoring.

And the Rangers just kind of shrunk from the moment. And I think that was a much bigger issue for Jim Dolan and Rangers ownership than the Tom Wilson nonsense. I think it was more, this is. is the team that they've, their biggest rival, the fans care the most about beating, and the Islanders have just been tuning them up for now for a few years. And especially the way that the Islanders can do that by kind of wrestling someone into submission. I think that didn't sit well with the Rangers in their front office and they had to figure out a way

around up. Maybe they went a little bit too extreme by getting so much toughness into their lineup to maybe make it more of a side show rather than just kind of build that from top to bottom, have that tenacity and that consistency that the islanders have. So if it's going to be a real rivalry, and the Rangers obviously need to get back to the playoffs to make it so, but if it's going to rise to that level, the Rangers have to just, you know, find another level of fortitude, basically,

to win, to grind out games. And they haven't gotten there yet. They certainly have a lot of wondrous skill, and they can pop off at any time. But the Islanders have a hold on this rivalry right now because they're just, it's, you know, it's turned from, the Rangers were always the big brothers from when the Islanders were born 50 years ago, but now it's certainly turned where the Islanders are the ones kicking sand in the Rangers faces,

and we'll see if the Rangers can answer this year. Terrific stuff. Well, listen, we're looking forward to your coverage. I know a lot of it will unfortunately kind of be on the road to start, but looking forward to your coverage all season, Arthur, and I'm sure you're going to enjoy working out of that new arena this season. Thanks so much for joining us here on the Athletic Hockey Show. Thanks, guys. Appreciate it. Thank you.

All right, Sean, as we continue our, I guess we call this like a cavalcade of guests here, the Athletic Hockey Show. We had Vogel, we had Staple, and now it's time to bring in Jesse Granger. For a little Granger things, a reminder that this segment is brought to you by BetMGM, the Exclusive, a betting partner with us at the Athletic. And Jesse Granger, a lot of people getting set to maybe participate in a hockey pool, fantasy draft. And the one word you hear all the time is sleeper. You know, everyone knows the McDavid's and the dry sidles and the McKinnons, but they want the breakout guys or the guys who might be criminally undervalued. So hit us up here, Jesse. Give us a couple of names of players who might fall into the sleeper category.

Yeah, I've got some guys that I like a lot more than where they're currently being drafted, starting with Connor Garland in Vancouver. He's a guy who obviously got traded there from Arizona this off season. He's currently being drafted 142nd around the 15th round in most drafts, so not high. at all. He's the 23rd drafted right winger on average. And last year, he was the 19th right winger in fantasy points in Arizona. So he's, I think, in my opinion, he's already being underdrafted just for what he did last year. He's on a Vancouver team that we don't really know what they're going to be. I'm interested to see what this team's going to do. I mean, two years ago when they were in the Pacific Division, and I saw them a lot covering the Golden Knights, we kind of thought they were the next

up-and-coming team to take over this division. And then last year in the North, I didn't get to see him a lot, and they took a major step back. I think you can look at their situation with COVID and everything and say that maybe that was a throwaway year. And this team, I feel like this team can bounce back, especially with how weak the Pacific Division is. And I expect Connor Garland to be one of the big pieces on that team. I think he's going to get top power play minutes. Right now, he's been playing on the second line with J.T. Miller and Vasili put Coles and very offensive players. I loved Connor Garland's game watching him in Arizona. Every time I watched that team, he stood out to me. He jumped off the ice. I think he's going to be playing.

playing in a better situation. If he was the 19th best fantasy right winger last year on Arizona, I expect him to be better than that this year. And he's being drafted a lot lower than that. So I like Connor Garland a lot. Another guy who I think I'd like to draft in fantasy, this isn't a guarantee that he's going to get a bigger role, but I think there's a great chance for Kirby Doc to move up the lineup as this season goes for Chicago.

We saw him come back at the end of last season after missing a lot of the year with an injury and played really, really well in that limited time. Right now he's the third line center for Chicago. But Tyler Johnson and Jonathan Taves are the two guys above him. And I don't know how solid that is. If Kirby Doc plays well, I could easily see him getting moved up and playing next to Patrick Kane. And if he's playing next to Patrick Kane, I mean, right now he's being drafted, 187th average.

That's the 19th round. Basically, you're picking him at the end of your draft. He's the 61st ranked center in the NHL, way down there. If you take a flyer on this guy, and I think it late in the draft, sometimes you're just trying to take guys that they're going to sit on my bench. They're not going to be racking up points for me, but I'm taking them on potential, hoping of what they can be. And I think Kirby Doc is a guy who, if he can get on that power play,

if he can get bumped up to playing next to Patrick Kane or the second line at any point, I think he's going to produce way higher than the 61st ranked center, which is where he's currently being drafted. And I just like Kirby Doc's game. He's fun to watch. I think he's going to have a big year. And then the third guy is another guy who I think, I'm not necessarily gambling on his talent, although I do think he has a ton, more so his opportunity.

And it's Nolan Patrick. It's a guy who I've seen a lot of here in Vegas, been watching him at training camp when he first arrived. I didn't see a lot. I'm wondering what Kelly McCriman has seen in this guy to kind of obviously Kelly McCriman coached him in junior and he has a lot of faith in him. But as he's been in Vegas, he has gotten better and better and better every preseason game. just a couple nights ago, his last preseason game, he looked phenomenal. He's one of the best players on the ice. I think right now he's on the Golden Knights third line, which doesn't sound great,

but it's a third line with Hvgeny Dadanov and Matthias Yanmark and Alex Tuck could come back at some point in the season. So there's tons of talent on that third line. I think Nolan Patrick's going to get a chance. He's also going to be on the top power play unit. He is the net front guy on the number one power play unit for the Golden Knights. And anyone who follows the Golden Knights knows their power play has struggled pretty badly over the last couple years, but it's looked good in preseason. They've put a lot of emphasis on it, and he's going to be playing on the ice with Mark Stone, Max Patcheretti, Alex Petrangelo, Shea Theodore, guys like that. So he's going to have a ton of chances to put up points, especially on the power play. Right now, Nolan Patrick,

if you look up Fantasy websites, ADP, his average draft position is nothing. He's not being drafted. So he's a guy that if you're at the end of your draft and you don't see anyone you like, you're trying to take a flyer on someone who could become something. I think Nolan Patrick's going to be fantasy relevant immediately on the third line just because of that power play. And then there's also the opportunity that I still think while Chandler-Stevenson has played well as the Golden Knights first line center between Patchretti and Stone, he's not cemented in there.

And if at any point Nolan Patrick is playing incredibly well and Chandler-Stevenson or that line has a slump, I could see the Goldenites trying Patrick in that role. They tried it with Cody Glass last year and it didn't seem to work. So, I mean, if you get a guy who's not even being drafted and you'd get him at the end of your draft and then halfway through the season, he's playing on the Golden Knights top line with Pataretti and Stone, and he's on their top power play, that is the steel of the draft. So it's not a guarantee. Nolan Patrick could do nothing this year like he did last year in Philadelphia fantasy-wise, but I think there is opportunity there for you to get a really good player with

basically no risk. I like you sneaking in the Philadelphia pun with Take a Flyer. Yeah, I was going to say, take a flight. That's not actual advice. Do not do that, especially when it comes to your goaltenders. Do not take a flyer. Jesse is not suggesting. Yeah. You know what? We do want to talk about one other guy on the Vegas Golden Knights, but I'm going to ask Sean this question before I pick your brain here because Sean, last week, Team Canada announced its three players that they would be kind of marketing and kind of putting on the initial roster for the Olympic Games. Sydney Crosby, Connor McDavid. No surprise with those two. And Alex Petrangelo, I was like, oh, okay. I mean, I guess you could have got Nate McKinnon or whatever. McKinn's the guy I thought was going to be. Yeah.

Were you surprised, Sean, to see that? Yes and no, only because I think, you know, Nathan McKinnon is obviously going to be on that team. And those are the three biggest stars that Canada could offer. But I also get that maybe in some sense they say, you know what, we don't want to do three forwards. We want to have a defenseman on there. And yeah, that's probably. the number one defenseman lock that you would say for Canada. Some of the other guys are a little younger.

Maybe you want to see another season, make them prove it, that sort of thing. It's this kind of thing, it's not, you know, it's not even binding to the team. It's an honor as much as anything. And Alex Petriangelo deserves that honor as much as anyone. So I had an initial sense of surprise more just that McKinnon wasn't there. but after that, when I thought it through, it made sense. Okay. And Jesse Granger, you're going to tell us a little bit more about Petrangelo, maybe through the fantasy lens. And again, he's obviously a high profile player.

If he's going to be on Team Canada's initial three-man roster, that speaks volumes about his reputation. But why should people who are in a hockey pool maybe be thinking of him kind of as a sleeper or as like kind of a sneaky good pick? Yeah, he doesn't really qualify, along with Garland, Doc, and Patrick's, slightly different tier of player here, but he's a guy who I think is being drafted lower than he should be. I mentioned Nolan Patrick, and obviously I'm going Golden Knights heavy here, but that's because those are the guys I'm watching in camp. And I've seen Alex Petrangelo look like the guy who

can challenge for a Norris trophy. I think last year, his first year in Vegas, he's coming off of a career high year in St. Louis where he scored career highs and goals in points. He was the number three fantasy defensemen two years ago, his last year in St. Louis. Number three, Top three in the league. He was really, really elite. Last year, I think the expectations were you're coming to an offensive team in Vegas that scores more goals in St. Louis. People expected big things out of him, and he just wasn't the same. He was hesitant. He was, I don't think he jumped into the play as much. He wasn't, he didn't dive deep into the offensive zone the way he didn't St. Louis. He finished the 19th ranked defensemen. So you probably weren't pumped. If you picked Alex Petrangelo last year, expecting top three and you get barely a top 20 defensemen. But at the end of the year and then in the playoffs, especially, I thought he was their best player in that Colorado series and the Montreal series. He looks totally comfortable. I wrote a big story in the off season about kind of him getting integrated in this team. And I think it was kind of a case of a new guy coming into a team that has had so much success in the Golden Knights. And I think Petrangelo was kind of, I don't want to

be the guy to mess this up. So I'm just going to kind of fit in. I'm not going to take over these games. I'm not going to be the dominant puck possession guy that I was. I kind of want to just fit in. And then I think as the season went on, and then especially in the playoffs, he realized, no, I need to be that guy. That's why they brought me in here. And here, I know it's preseason, but he looks like that guy. He's all over the place. He's diving into the offensive zone. I expect a big time offensive year out of Alex Petrangelo. Right now he's being drafted 59th. He's the 10th drafted defenseman. So if you can get a guy with top three potential and you're drafting him as the 10th defenseman in the draft, I think that's, I think he's going to produce a lot higher. than what the fantasy projections are saying this year just because it's his second year in the system. And I think you're going to see this year what people were hoping when he first signed with the Golden Knights.

Terrific stuff. Listen, we'll leave it there. And hopefully our listeners take some of your sleeper picks in mind when they're drafting their team in the next few days. So Jesse Granger, as always, we love the Granger Things visits. Have a great week. And we'll hit you up again next Thursday. Thanks for having me, guys. Thank you, Jesse. All right. Great to have, you know, Jesse. be a part of the show here again, heading into the new season. And Sean, as we were recording this, a little bit of news came out. In fact, we were just talking with Jesse

about Team Canada's original roster for the Olympic Games. I think there's some people who would have said, well, Kerry Price would have been if he was healthy and everything was good with him. He would have been a lock to be maybe on that initial roster. But we do have some news to pass along on Kerry Price, and that is a joint statement

from the National Hockey League and the Players Association today. And it reads, the NHL and the NHLPA announced today that Carrie Price, the Montreal Canadians will be away from the team while voluntarily taking part in the NHL, NHL-NHLPA player assistance program. There will be no further comment. So obviously, Sean, that's a seismic piece of news. Arguably the, you know, one of the best three or four goalies in the game, a guy who we thought

wasn't going to be ready for training camp because of a knee issue. and there might be something a little bit more serious afoot here with the Canadian Starnet Binder. Yeah, no other information available and presumably there won't be. These things are private and are kept that way. And big news as far as the Canadians and the playoff picture and all of that stuff, but it pales in comparison to Kerry Price taking care of himself and being well and really nothing for your right to add other than kudos to him for doing what he needs to do. And beyond that, you know, you just offer him our best as he goes through whatever he's going through.

Yeah. And you know what? I think what's important to note is, you know, I really appreciated the way the Montreal fans and the Montreal media really treated Jonathan Druand in the last month. And I hope that that same sort of empathy is there for whatever Carey Price is dealing with. And I think, you know, I think that is arguably the most pressure-packed market in North America. It comes with a lot of extra baggage. And sometimes it can push athletes over the edge. But I think there's been a nice sort of connection between Drew Ann and the fans.

And it would be really nice if we could see that same sort of sentiment towards Kerry Price. And obviously, I think, like you said, Sean, we don't know what's going on. All we can do, I think, as hockey media and fans, sit there and try to be supportive and his understanding of the situation as we can. So I want to just kind of wrap up this show a couple of things here. And we'll kind of get back to a little bit of a lighter note here. And that is, I need to know, as Sean McIndoo, down goes brown, has he filled out his office pools, athletic hockey show, fantasy team yet?

Have you gone on to office pool.com? By the way, for our listeners, the link to this where you can go head to head against Sean, myself, Haley, Salvean, Jesse Granger, Custins, Gentilly, all of us. We're going to pick our own teams, and then you're going to see if you can beat us, which chances are you probably will, because we're not that smart. Just curious, have you picked your team already? I have made an initial selection. I reserve the right to tweak and adjust as necessary between now and opening night because I think the cutoff is 7 o'clock next Tuesday opening night. So I'm going to be weighing and take it right to the wire. But I have sat down.

I went through all of the different options and I've done my research. And I feel pretty good about my squad right now. They are in there currently, you know, again tentatively based on. on who makes the final cut. Tentatively, they are the pasta makers based on the fact that I've got David Posternak and Kail Makar on the team.

So I'm going for the joint pun name there. I like it. But I got to say, man, it's, this is the sort of thing. If you haven't gone to office pools and filled out your roster yet, and the format is

we give you a group of players and you got to pick one player from each group. And you can Pick and choose beyond that, it's up to you. It is, you, there are some tough decisions. There were a handful of boxes where I felt pretty good right away, but there were some where I really went back and forth. And you narrow it down, you go, okay, not that guy,

I don't want that guy, but you're still left with two or three or four names. And I have a feeling I'm going to be shifting stuff around for the next few days, right up until opening night. Yeah, but I appreciate the pun factor going, you know, postured, you know, you know, pasta, all of that stuff. And, you know, just to peel back the curtain for our listeners, and I texted you and our producer Danielle last week because I made my picks.

I purposely selected Brock Besser out of his bracket because I thought, you know, I could make a little pun name. My team is better than yours. That's my team name. Not bad. Within the hour of me selecting Besser and making him my focal point of my team, name, Thomas Drans, who covers the Vancouver Connects for the Atlantic, tweets out,

Brock Bester will be out of the lineup for at least the next week after he suffered an injury. I'm like, wow, the curse is real. The pun curse is real. Yeah, you've done it. So, I mean, now what do you do, right? Because when you like a pun, you're sort of stuck with it. I don't know. You know what I'm thinking of doing after that Jesse Granger segment?

I'm thinking he may have talked me into Kirby Doc. Okay. And I'm thinking of going Doc McStuffins. Okay. You know what? That's not bad. That's, you know, the parents out there will. Yeah, Doc McStuffins.

Yeah. You know, I'm looking at the Brock Bessor box here. I mean, the bride rust is in there. There's got to be some pun potential there. Blake Wheeler, you could have the 18 wheeler going over the cliff. You know, I feel like you've got, but you've got the right approach, right? which is you, a real hockey team you build from the net out. An office pools team, you build from the pun out.

And then the rest of it, you just try to drop in in place. Like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Jason Roberts. And I can't do anything with that. You're not giving me enough to work with. Yes, Mike Smith, it's just not going to work out. Yeah. Sorry, man. Yeah.

All right. So again, I hope our listeners, check out our officepools.com, fantasy hockey league, The Athletic Hockey Show. We've got a bunch of people, listeners, signed up. It's going to be fun. Some great prizes for you just for signing up. So check it out, and we'd love to get your feedback on that. All right, here we go.

Wrap it up the show, as we always do, Sean. A little this week in hockey history. How about this 30 years ago this week? October 4, 1991. The Edmonton Oilers trading Mark Messier to the New York Rangers. In exchange for Bernie Nichols, Stephen Rice, Louis de Brusk. And I wonder if we're looking at impactful trades of the expansion era of the NHL. Boy, I got to tell you, Mark Messier of the Rangers, Sean, it's got to be, is it,

is it the top one? Is it, is it near the top? Like this, this was as impactful of a trade as second think of in the last 30, 40 years? Certainly in terms of short-term impact because you had both sides of the coin, right? You had a Rangers team that had been very good and had been kind of knocking on the door being contenders, but that classic case where we always look at teams and say, are they one piece away? The Rangers felt like they were one piece away. And it was an era where you could go out and get a big piece like Mark Messier. There weren't many bigger at the time. and they got that deal done. And it translated ultimately to a championship, of course,

and then the only one that the Rangers have won in forever. But that very, very memorable playoff run in 94 with the guarantee and then the Matole goal and then they beat the Canucks and, you know, the Messia laughing with the Stanley Cup, certainly one of the most memorable moments in NHL history and one that to this day, the NHL still really beats into the ground. I mean, you would think that was the only cup that was won in that era sometimes. So for the Rangers, great trade, huge impact, the fact that the league's biggest market had the championship. The Rangers, they were all over David Letterman.

There was that famous Sports Illustrated cover that the NHL was hot and the NBA wasn't and all of this stuff. And at least for a moment in time, we thought, man, this is really strapping a rocket to this league. The fact that Mark Messier, this big star, this big Broadway star celebrity, One of the biggest stars in the sports world at the time in our biggest market just wins the championship. And then you flip the coin and the Edmonton Oilers. I mean, the Gretzky trade obviously was enormous. And they had traded, you know, Fear and Anderson had gone around this time as well. But this really felt like the end of the era.

I mean, Gretzky goes and everybody writes off the Oilers and then they come back and they win the Stanley Cup in 1990 with Mark Messier as captain. And when he says I want out and they make it happen, this really spelled the end of the Oilers. Dynasty and really of the Oilers as a contender for a very, very, very long time, maybe even up to and including today if you want to go that far. So huge impact on two teams. Is this the most impactful trial? I don't think anything will ever touch Wingrenski. That was the, you know, that's the biggest and most important trade that. I think that there's ever been.

But you could make a case for Mark Messier as number two. Not as far as the talent involved, because Bernie Nichols was a real good player, but Bernie Nichols was not a Mark Messier level star. And none of the other guys involved got to that level. So, you know, there are certainly trades that have had more talent involved. You think of the Lindrosse trade would be a big one with Peter Forsberg going the other way. Ted Lindsay and Glenn Hall being traded in the same deal. that sort of thing.

But as far as pure impact, and if you're talking the bottom line for league and the potential of what it could have meant, this one might be right up there. I've written about this question before. What's the second biggest trade in NHL history? This was on the list. And I think you can make a real good case

that maybe this should be the one that gets the nod. Yeah. The only one for me that I think of, too, like Patrick Waugh, because he ends up winning multiple cups in Denver would be pretty darn close. But like you said, it's like that one Rangers cup is equal to like three or four cups. Yeah.

And the other one would be, you know, both of the Esposito trades, if you're going back that far, would rank there. The one case that I made when I wrote about this is that I feel like this, and it's very, very hard for new fans to understand that there really was a time in 1994, right out. after Mark Messier wins the cup. And like I said, he's on Letterman every night. He's dating Madonna. And there was a time where hockey was, for the only time in really our lives, hockey was cool. Hockey was the cool sport in North America, in the United States.

And the NBA was dull and defensive and everything. And people were kind of turning on that. And there was this feeling that, you know, could the NHL, the fourth, the perennial number four in the big fours, sports actually make a run at the NBA? Could this actually happen? And then Gary Bettman picks that moment to have his first lockout and shut the whole league down for half a season.

And the NBA says, oh, we're defensive and boring. Well, let's change our rules. So we're become high scoring and fun again. The NHL goes in the exact opposite direction. The dead puck era comes in. And of course, now if you say the NHL is number four in the big four, people will laugh at the idea that there even is a big four because the idea that the NHL could ever tend to. the other leagues is so ridiculous. But there was this snapshot in time with Mark Messier

where it really felt like this could happen. It didn't have the staying power within a year or two most of what had happened from that. Messia was in Vancouver and all this other stuff. So it maybe didn't have the staying power. But in the moment, it felt that way. And it's, we haven't been back to that place since. See, I thought you were going to be able to get out of there without mentioning Messier in Vancouver. We just lost all our West Coast listeners. Oh, they were yelling about it. They were all yelling at there.

As soon as we said the name Mark Messier, they were gone. Yeah, they were out. All right, hey, we're out too. This was a lot of fun. Sean, thanks for doing this. It was a fun hour, and we'll do this again next Thursday. Right on. All righty.

Hey, thanks, everybody as well for joining us here for this latest edition of The Athletic Hockey Show. Like I said, Sean and I are back in the seat next Thursday. You got any questions for us? We're always happy to open up the mailbag, The Athletic Hockey Show at gmail.com. The athletic hockey show at gmail.com. That's how you can drop us an email.

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