The Athletic Hockey Show - New York Rangers Pride Night controversy, Bobby Hull’s complicated legacy, are teams using their EBUGs incorrectly?, Jack Adams Winner of the Week, Multiple Choice Madness, and more

Episode Date: January 30, 2023

On a jam-packed Monday edition of The Athletic Hockey Show, Ian and Julian discuss whether the NHL should avoid scheduling games opposite NFL playoff matchups, the Boston Bruins losing 3 straight games for the first time this season, and which Eastern Conference team is their biggest threat, the New York Rangers Pride Night controversy just a week or so after Ivan Provorov refused to wear a Pride jersey during Philadelphia Flyers warmups, Edmonton Oilers EBUG Matt Berlin closing out a win against the Chicago Blackhawks on Saturday night, the passing of Bobby Hull and his complicated legacy, if sports commissioners should have term limits in light of Gary Bettman’s upcoming 30-year anniversary as NHL commish, and the guys close things out by awarding this week’s Jack Adams Winner of the Week and answering a Multiple Choice Madness question.Subscribe to The Athletic Hockey Show on YouTube: http://youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowGet a 1-year subscription to The Athletic for $2 a month when you visit http://theathletic.com/hockeyshowGet 20% Off and Free Shipping with the code NHL23 at Manscaped.com and shoot your arrow with MANSCAPED™ this Valentine’s Day Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show. Welcome back to your Monday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. As always, to kick off your week in hockey, it's Ian Mettis, Julian McKenzie, with you. Coming up on the pod today, we'll run down a pretty eventful weekend in the NHL from the fallout from the New York Rangers Pride Night to the Oilers using their emergency goalie to Bobby Hull passing away, Trevor Ziegress, Troy Stetcher. Boy, there's a lot of things. things to get into, Julian.

Really, just as we're getting set for All-Star Week and a lot of teams going on their buy coming up here, we're headed for a quiet kind of news cycle, I think, in the NHL, but certainly we got a lot to chew on from the weekend. Let me ask you this, though. The NHL had a couple of games at 5 o'clock on Sunday, Toronto, Washington, Carolina, Boston. should the NHL be playing games and going head to head with the NFL conference championship? Or should they be playing games at noon and not right in the middle of this whole window here?

I don't know if this is weird to say. I don't know if they should have at least two of their better franchises or more known franchises in that spot. I mean, maybe Toronto you can get away with because you think maybe the Canadian audience will tap in. But even then, like, then again, I guess if you're a Toronto guy, you probably are not watching or not watching as much because the bills are out. But that's another story. But like Boston? Really? I don't know.

I feel as if you could throw like a nothing game with, I don't know, two franchises that don't have nearly as much viewership. You throw in Arizona and there no disrespect. But like, I don't like the idea of having a split between watching conference championships games and watching, you know, two. those teams you mentioned. I mean, those are some good teams in there. I don't like the idea that they're in those slots. If they want to use that opportunity to compete, I guess. Maybe I understand that logic, but that's just like a fan of the game.

I don't like the idea of trying to split my time between one game to the next. And again, we live in a world where you could have multiple screens. So maybe I'm just complaining. You know what, though? I think the worst, like to me, if you're going to have NHL games on NFL championship weekend, is 5 o'clock not the worst possible time? Like, you're going to miss the end of game one and the beginning of game two.

Of the end of the end of... I feel like 5 o'clock's the worst time to be having games, right? Yeah. Five is such a weird start too for the players as well. Like, yeah, they're used to playing at 7, maybe 7.30, 8 o'clock in some instances. You know, they're used to some of the day games, too, I guess, where you could be at noon, maybe at 1. How often does a game start at 7?

five o'clock Eastern standard time, of course. But like, that's a bit of a weird one. That's five o'clock you might just be getting to the rink. Yeah, no, no, it's weird for the players. It's weird for the audience. Weird for every year. Five o'clock is a weird, it's a weird start time. And I think because we had the NFL going on yesterday,

it overshadowed, let's be honest here, at least in the Eastern Conference, a clash of the Titans, a couple of division leaders in Carolina, in Boston and Carolina. They beat the Bruins pretty handily. Here's my question. A little bit of concern now. Should there be a little bit of concern around Boston, Julian?

They've lost three games in a row. Two of them to legitimate, I think, Stanley Cup contenders in the lightning and the hurricanes. The other one to Florida, that's in overtime, whatever. But this is the first speed wobble that the Bruins have had all season. Cause for concern or, you know what? They weren't going to, they're not the 1976 Montreal Canadians. This was bound to happen. Everybody relax.

this is your fault. Jinks it. I jinxed them. Remember I said it last week. This is your fault. Last week, you made the point with the Boston Bruins winning as much as they were winning, that they were probably destined, or at least history has shown that a team as good as what the Boston Bruins could be, they just never find a way to do it when it really matters. And now they've decided to start losing some of these games because of some stupid Chris, this is your fault. Everybody listens to this episode.

Go back to last week's episode. Go back to what Ian Mendez was saying. This is Ian Mendez's fault. That's as far as I'm concerned. In all seriousness, I'm not worried about that at all. Okay, like the Boston Rooms were not going to win every single game that was coming in their way. It's, I mean, it's not as if they've lost to too many minnows in the NHL season. Carolina is an excellent team.

That's a team that, I mean, in terms of cup contenders, I'm not sure we've rated them enough. They're well coached. They have a good core. They can play well defensively. Like, we haven't hyped up the Carolina Hurricanes enough. And maybe they need a good run in order for us to really properly give them their due. But I'm not necessarily perturbed at the fact that the Bruins lost a random January game against Carolina. No, not in the slightest.

Who's the biggest challenge? Okay, they lost two games this week, or I guess technically last week, one to Tampa, one to Carolina. I think we can all agree. Okay, but we can't sit here with a straight face and say Toronto is the biggest threat to Boston because we know the playoff history that's there. So who's the biggest threat to the Boston Bruins in the east? Is it Tampa or Carolina? Man, I mean, both those teams are right there.

I mean, Tampa, like I said, like I said last week, I wouldn't be surprised if they found a way to go back to the conference final considered with the way that they're built in the playoff experience they've accumulated over the last few years. If you're thinking of a team that could succeed them and try to be a power, I thought the Rangers would be in that driver's seat, but maybe they're not the team I thought they would be. The Carolina Hurricanes have been knocking on that door. They're right there.

I'll say Tampa just because of what they've done in the past, but I also, not to mention the goaltending too, but I think Carolina's not that far off. I mean, look, if you're Boston, you lose those games, okay, and you take it as like a little lull in your season. It's not the end of the world. you get back up on the horse and you find ways to win more games again. But like, it's not like if this is April, this is game two, game three of a series,

like we're making a bigger deal out of this obviously. But like January, it's like, all right. Like, yeah, teams have to lose at some point. So you mentioned the Rangers not maybe being the team that you thought they'd be. The Rangers were certainly Julian front and center in the news cycle this weekend. This coming on the heels of Friday night, Madison Square Garden, Rangers were supposed to host their annual Pride Night, a night in which the players were going to go out for warm-ups

wearing pride-themed jerseys. There was going to be kind of rainbow colors on the tapes, tape sticks. Both of those things were scuttled as the Rangers just came out in warm-ups, regular gear. They still had Pride Night. A lot of the elements that were supposed to be there, were there, but a couple of key elements were removed.

The Rangers did put out a statement on the weekend. I'll just read a portion of it here. It says our organization respects the LGBTQ plus community. We are proud to bring attention to important local community organizations as part of another great pride night. The statement went on to read, in keeping with our organization's core values, we support everyone's individual right to respectfully express their beliefs, end quote.

So why this is important, or interesting is that this is now coming off the heels within two weeks of middle of January. The Flyers have their pride date in which Ivan Proverov citing his Russian Orthodox faith. That's his rationale for not wearing a pride sweater during the pregame warmups. And everybody is sitting here saying, where are we at as it pertains to this particular topic? So you and I have not weighed in on this at all. I think it's worth having an intelligent, you know, discussion on this. Where do you want to start?

Where are you come down on this? How are you feeling about where things are at? The first thing I would like to say is to anyone who is listening to this podcast, who hasn't done so already, read the article written by Steve Buckley on the Rangers side of things. It's called Rangers Retreat on Pride Night sends somber message to younger closeted players. and I read that story a couple of days ago and it touches off on the fact that

obviously with what's going on if you are a player in the league or just if you really think about it you extend to any athlete in the league who may be closeted you know what has gone on with the Rangers and what has gone on with the Flyers

can't really sit easy with you and I guess what's it's kind of weird because in one frame of mind you can argue that the reaction to what has transpired with how both teams have handled Pride Night is a sign of progress because as many people care about LGBTQ issues, or even if you are not part of that community, you still think it's worth acknowledging and celebrating. At the same time, I guess because of how progressive we've come as a society with issues and problems that surround them to see that people,

will at least be homophobic or show hate towards that community is a disappointment. And to use religious, my whole thing about it, it bothers me a bit because as someone who considers themselves at least somewhat spiritual and was raised on a foundation of faith, like it's like, I feel like it's like hiding behind religious beliefs is just a little bit of a weird rationale for me because like the same religion. I mean, if you really tie it down to every single religion, they tell you to love that neighbor. And yeah, like, it's just, it's just a bit weird that, like, because of your faith, you don't feel you should wear a jersey that has your name and your number in rainbow. Like, I just think that's just like a weird rationale to justify faith.

And look, I just think it's a bit weird in the callus of Ivan Broveroff, the Rangers thing. I mean, what's weird to what's, that to me gives me concern with how other teams might handle it, how other people might, might handle it or how other people will choose to express their beliefs about that situation. Like that could open a door to more complications around teams handling Pride night and figuring out what they should do. Because otherwise, like, it should have just been like a night where, you know, it's like just a small. subtle way for teams to show support, and now it might turn into essentially a witch hunt. Like, what if we start looking at other warmups and we're thinking, okay, this guy doesn't have tape or this guy's not wearing a jersey? Like, that's, that is, that should be completely besides the point. It should just be a subtle way for organizations to show, uh, support for,

for those communities. But where do you come down? Okay, let's go back to Provera for a second. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. He clearly, does not align with that viewpoint. Okay? Yeah. What's the point of forcing him to wear a pride jersey would be, like, to me, at that, like, here's where I come down on this. And I, you know, I haven't weighed in on this anywhere.

I would like to see teams give players the option of, in a warm-up, if you want to wear the pride jersey, wear it. You know why? I want to know who the real allies are, Julian. I don't want to know who's doing this for performative reasons or doing it because it's mandated. I want to know who the real, I want to know the real allies.

And if the Philadelphia Flyers came out for a warm up and everybody came out and one guy wasn't wearing it, I would know who are the allies and who aren't. And if half the team is wearing it, half the, I want to know the real allies. The people that when push comes to shove, they will stand up for that community or a disenfranchised community or a community.

Like, I think, and I've put some thought into this over the last couple of weeks. I thought, that's where I come down on this. You know, because I think you and I probably have a lot of similar viewpoints. I'll use Colin Kaepernick as a great example. I was a big Colin Kaepernick guy right in the beginning in 2016. I always believed in an athlete's ability to express themselves. Okay?

Mm-hmm. Do I become hypocritical if I now denounce Ivan Pro-Rov? I don't agree with Ivan Provoff. I want to make that very clear. I don't agree with his viewpoint. But then do I become hypocritical if I say, man, you shouldn't have the right to do what other athletes have done, which is use your platform to express yourself. Do I, am I guilty of being hypocritical? And I think in trying to digest this over 10 days or two weeks, I think the answer is yes.

So I will come down on this and I will say, I want to, I want people to be authentic. I don't want athletes to be performative. I don't want them to do this because, oh man, that guy's wearing a jersey. I better wear a jersey. I want you to believe in the cause. I want you to truly be an ally. So if a handful of New York Rangers players came out and said, we're not comfortable, I don't want to see you coming out and being a fake ally.

What the hell does that do for us? Tell me, can you explain to me? How are we further ahead? If Ivan Proverov wore a pride jersey that night, do we magically alter his viewpoint? No, I would be much rather have a good, try to engage people with thoughtful conversation and dialogue and education and hope to maybe sway their viewpoint. But I think sometimes this comes across as like we want everybody to be on our side of the fence

and I think you know this as a person of color, just as I do, there are going to be racist people out there. There's going to be homophobic people out there. There's going to be misogynistic people. There's going to be all that. There's no magical finish line that we're going to get to it. And we're going to, you and I are going to high five each other, Julian. We did it, buddy.

Racism is gone. Racism is over. All we can do is our best to try and engage people in thoughtful dialogue. I don't think putting a jersey on if you don't truly believe in it does anything. I don't think it does. I can understand that. viewpoint. Like, I guess let's put the shoe on the other foot. Again, I'm going to assume that you probably have a lot of the same viewpoints kind of socially as, as I do. I'm making some

assumptions. Okay. Sure. Now, let's say there's a, an NHL game or an NFL, pick your sport. And the team has decided that night, they're going to honor the local police department. Okay. Which, many teams do. Okay. And they say, in warm up, We're all going to wear local police department themed jerseys with our logo and their logo. We're united as one, whatever, okay? Now, one player on the team is a person of color who says, I'm not doing that because I don't believe in the way that certain police members treat, you know, certain groups. And would you not applaud that person? I would.

But as a person of color who, I mean, I have to say like I'm fortunate that I have not had any negative, or at least not to the point of other people, at least with interactions with the law, but obviously knowing what has happened. I mean, we're coming off a couple of days from what happened with Tyree Nichols. Nichols, right? Yeah, with police officers. Yeah, I think if a person of color were to go through something like that, I think they'd have every right to feel that way. But we also know, knowing the sport that we cover, if they were going to do that, the blowback on that would be insane, insane on that player. And I have to admit, like, that would be very, be very, it would be very, I'd feel for that

player because, you know, they would probably be the lone, one of the loneliest players in the world to go through something like that. Because considering how teams, especially in the NHL, have embraced, uh, court of law enforcement. And that's their right to do. But I, I, to your point, yes, like, people should have that right to exercise what they feel. But also at the same time, and I'm sure you understand this too, freedom of expression does not come with being, you know, without consequence. Exactly. Right. Like, like, if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're that player who's going to, uh, say that they're not down to support

this law enforcement night, you know, you're going to have to come with that blowback. What I also think is very interesting with your example here, too, is could you imagine if a player says that they don't want to do this, but the team pushes back, right? Because if you're the flyers and you do what you did, you know, I feel like you kind of open, you open up a door, obviously for people to be like, well, you know what? If this team found a way to make it work, like, why can't I do this? So, can you imagine? And I guess we're dealing

in hypotheticals right now. Could you imagine if like a player did your example or if some team coming up on February. What if some team does a Black Lives Matter thing

and someone's like, I'm not doing this. Like this just, for me, this could be like a Pandora's box of like headaches. Yeah, the teams. Okay.

But it is a Pandora's box. It is. It could easily be that as opposed to people. But do you want, just wear your jersey and go on? Do you want a player who doesn't embrace Black Lives Matter to wear a Black Lives Matter shirt? If he, if in his heart he doesn't believe in the cause, do you want him skating out there, walking out there? No, my answer is no.

I want the real allies, the real, like, okay, so I guess that's why I come back. Here's another counterpoint to that too. Yeah. And maybe this might come across as more of a generalization than anything else. But I think by comparison with the NHL to the NBA, the NFL to a certain extent too, I would, and again, it's a bit of a generalization. And I don't think it's that reflective of some of its fans too. A lot of people like to make assumptions that the NHL is not the most progressive league when it comes to the people in it. There are obviously people in the league who are progressive, but a lot of people like to make that

assumption that they're not. If you start getting to a point where you're just like, you know, let the real allies wear the shirts or do their gestures in whatever, I feel like we're going to, I feel like you open yourself up to maybe not disappointment in your case or my case. But I feel like you start opening the door to a lot of people just saying, all right, I'm not doing this. I know. But I guess my point at the end of the day.

And I would love to be wrong on that point. I would love the financial players here this part of this discourse that we're having and they're like, no, we're actually more progressive than you think. I would love to be wrong on that. I know. And I guess where I come down on this is we wrap up this topic here. I just want authenticity out of human beings.

And I think making somebody wear something when they're not authentically and emotionally involved in something is pointless. It's truly pointless. Like, I don't see the point. I would rather, like I said, give me, if I find out that eight guys on my team are really staunchly pro, you know, Pride Night and they want to wear the jerseys, those are the eight guys I'm going to care about more than if all 20 of them wore it. But it turns out 12 of them didn't really, didn't really care. Then you're not sure who the real allies are.

Just show me the real allies. I guess the only other way you could do it, you have to find a way to kind of change the way these types of knights go about, where instead of it being a thing where everyone has to wear the same uniform, you really leave it open-ended for everybody. And then you just let the real ones who want to come out with tape or wear the jersey or do something special. I guess that's a really good way to go about it. It's just that because of the way that they're structured now, like if, if. It's just the expectations that everybody wears these shirts and everybody shows that they're that they're about these causes. Because that's, I guess that's the best way to do it. You know, like if a player wants to like, it's cool to see like rainbow tape and warm up.

Why not like follow through and wear it during a game? Like wear tape that's good enough to put it under stick to wear for, to have it for 60 minutes. I don't know. Like if you find a way to kind of shape it in which we look at the people who support these. causes a little differently, maybe we could have something just right now, especially right now this minute. Like if we start getting to what we want the real allies, it's just going to be at this like kind of witch hunt mode. We're like, we're just going to be looking at who's wearing something, who's not wearing something. You got to, you got to change it around a little bit.

I agree with you. I agree with you there. And it, you know, I think what happens is we live in a society in an age in which things feel very polarized, right, on either side. I think there's more people in the middle willing to have a very intelligent, nuanced conversation that's rooted in empathy than we realize. And so we just, we get into these two camps and we're like, you and us. There's actually more people in the middle that are probably more open to, how can we support the disenfranchised communities, how do we, how do we be allies for them in a way that's not as divisive? I don't think it has to be this divisive. I don't. It doesn't. But also another thing,

too, we have to consider as well, like, the biggest shame in all this is, especially with Ivan Proverov, like it took away from people who were being real allies, right? Like before, like everyone should have been talking about how Scott Lawton and James Van Rimsdyke were with non-binary fans before the game. Like, that's something else that has to be taken to account too. Like, because people, especially now, if we get to a point where we're like, hey, let the people who are, you know, allies show their true colors and let everyone else not do their thing and why it's so important to kind of change the way that we shape that, like, because of what Proverov and

and maybe you can throw the rangers in this too, you're taking away from the real work or the real ally ship from people around the league who want to show it. Okay, and real quick, just to put a bow on this, imagine the Flyers gave their players the opportunity, the choice, you can wear a regular orange Flyers jersey or a Pride-themed jersey

and they opened the doors and Scott Lawton and James Van Reimsdike came out wearing the Pride jerseys. What conversation are we having? We're having a conversation of look at these two guys using their platform to truly show that they're allies. And guys who have been consistent, and guys who have been consistent in that viewpoint for a long time too. Exactly. Let's move along to a less divisive topic, but equally intriguing to me is what happened with the Edmonton Oilers this weekend, Julian.

goaltender Matt Berlin was summoned to be the, he figured he's the emergency goalie. Just before the game on the weekend against Chicago, he finds out, actually, man, you're not just the e-bug, you're the backup. Stuart Skinner's not good enough. You're backing up Jack Campbell. Now they're playing Chicago. Final three minutes of the game, they tell him, hey man, warm yourself up. We're actually going to put you into this game. First whistle after three minutes.

Turns out, and Daniel Nugent Bowman, great piece up at the athletic, kind of outlining how this all came together. But they said to him, get in there, first whistle after the three minute mark, under three minutes left, you're in. So this guy plays two minutes and change, 226, to be exact.

One shot, one save. I don't want to be that guy that... Oh, no. What are you going to do with that? this. I don't know that I like this, Julian. I don't think I like this. Okay.

No. No. And I don't want to be that guy. Just hear me out. Will you just hear me out on this? Okay, fine. Okay. What's the purpose of the emergency goaltender, the ebug in the NHL?

What is it's, what is the spirit of the rule? To, to be used in emergencies. Right. Was that an emergency or was that a quasi-make-a-wish situation? that, um, nah, you can't disrespect a man like that, a quasi-meiko,

dang. What is this? What is this? But he was the backup. But he was the backup. He was the backup. He was the backup. Goaley.

Come on. And I, I don't, I hate being cynical about this. Where do you draw the line? What's wrong with it? Emergency goalie. What was wrong with it?

He got it. He made his de motions. They should be, nothing bad happened. They should be encased in glass. waste in glass and broken only an emergency. That's it. The backup.

He's not the ebug in this situation. You know what? They used the ebug and they bumped him up to backup. And at that point it's their right to love using like that. Okay. If they're at a point where they have their two healthy goalies and they were like, all right, cool, let's just use the ebug. Then you're like, well, what the hell are you doing?

But then they're allowed to use them in that way. There's an opportunity to do it. They're up on Chicago. It's the Edmonton Oilers for. God's sake. I don't know how I feel. I feel like they... Like three minutes in.

Like, three minutes left. Like, what? I feel like we need to read all... Like, in whether... Imagine these San Francisco 49ers in the NFC championship game. Look, they lost their two quarterbacks. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's totally different.

No, no, no. Totally different. But imagine they're like, he, by the way, if both our quarterbacks get hurt, there's some rando guy that used to play college ball, he's going to come in and play for... That's farcical. Yeah, but that's different.

Can we just talk for a minute about, I don't know what the solution is? And maybe there is no solution because it's very rare. But I don't know that I like the idea of a guy that started the day as an emergency goalie is purposely put in because they're like, oh, we want to help. And I love this. Look, I love all the Scott Foster and the David Ayers. All the times it's happened organically, I got no problem with it. This one just felt like, now what's your message to the Chicago Blackhawks?

Like, what's your message? No disrespect, but we're going to give this kid a chance? If I'm the oldest, I could give a damn what the Chicago Blackhawks think. I can give a damn what they think. We can do what we want. We've already beat you. The game is already over. I mean, fine.

You know, you want to get your goals in on this guy. Fine. We're still going to, you know, do everything we can to win. He's not literally just any bum off the street. I understand he can play some goalie. I don't see anything wrong with this. The game I think was far enough out of reach. If they did this when it was 4.3, you're like, okay, now you're being ridiculous.

But that's it. They wouldn't do that. But it's 7.3. Like, there's nothing wrong that's going to happen. And even if, even if Chicago got two goals, got two goals in on this guy. And they made it 7.5. If they did, sorry to do this to you guys. In Calgary, I'm really sorry to do this to you.

If the Calgary Flames did this, I'd be concerned. is they got to work their butts off to get themselves from goals. If there is one an NHL team I know that can find a way to outscore a problem, it's the Edminton Oilers. And Connor McDavid, who, who was the brainchild behind this whole idea, he himself might be like, all right, just let me get the puck,

let me get two goals in and, you know, make sure that it's not that close with the game. And I know I'm being a little silly with that last point, but like, there's no, it's not a big deal. This is totally fine. This is a great story. And I think if we start getting to a point, we start worrying about ebugs and how they're deployed and stuff,

like, come on, man. Let's be careful with that. I hate that I'm this cynical, but the whole point. I'm surprised by this viewpoint from you, sir. I thought, I did not think you do that. I can't be alone. All I'm saying is I can't be alone. I can't be alone in thinking,

I don't know where you draw the line. Okay, how different is our conversation if this Berlin kid gets a high slap shot and takes it off the collarbone, breaks his collarbone, or it gets a concussion or something happens. Are we having a different conversation or no? If he gets hurt, we're not having the same conversation? I guess not, but at the same time, like, what? Like, he's a, I don't know, that's the hazard that every NHL player has to worry about when they step in.

It's like a freak accident. What are you going to say? He's not an NHL player. Okay, fine, but like even, what are you going to say? like, oh no, now we have to, we definitely can't put ebugs in. What if they get hurt? Like, what? Like, that's a risk that everyone has to go through.

Put the ebug in if you need him. Look, okay? I'm with you on the fact that you can put the ebug in when you need him. He was not the ebug in that situation. He got bumped from ebug to back up. They had every right to put him in the way that they did. It was a nice, cool thing to do. It was a rare opportunity for them to do.

No other team really does that like that. I don't see the issue. Okay. Last point on this. Sure. Okay. This guy's a university student. He's got an exam on Monday, like today.

Yes. So this happens on Saturday night. What's the last thing any college or university student needs 48 hours before a big exam? More pressure. You know what? This guy doesn't need more pressure. That's the last thing this guy. He's a college student.

You're not serious with this topic, bro. You're not serious. That one, okay. That one was... You're not serious. That one was a joke. You're not serious with this. God, I've tried to add a little levity to it here now.

And is a man with your professional candor and valor and experience that you have shouldn't have to stretch to find viewpoints at this level. Like, what is there? That was my attempt to try and get a laugh out of you. But clearly, clearly I've destroyed... Just, just, just, you, you, you, today, sir, you, you want to. one today. First, you're asking if we should be concerned about the Boston Bruins when you was the one saying they were winning too much.

And now this. The hell we do. What is this? Okay. Now we're going to move on. And this actually, this next topic here, um, you know what? This is, this is going to be, again, you know what? And sometimes we have to walk,

I don't say we want to walk a tightrope, but sometimes there's stories that come out that cause you to have very conflicted feelings as sports fans in hockey. fans and certainly on Monday morning the passing of Bobby Hull would be one of them. If you were just to go to hockey reference or Hockey DB or whatever's your pleasure, you would look up and see that Bobby Hull is one of the greatest scores of all time. The 600 goals, the, you know, jumping to the WHL and really legitimizing that league and getting

players paid and winning heart trophies in a Stanley Cup. And, you know, if you were to just look at it through the lens of that, you would say, my goodness gracious, one of the greatest players of his generation has passed away. If you were to then take a step back further and look at this with a different perspective, you would see this is a man whose, you know, history of allegations of domestic abuse, racism, anti-Semitism, you know, these types of things. You know, finally, the Chicago Blackhawks, the organization in which he really became a star at the

NHL level, they cut ties with him a couple of years ago. They're like, we cannot be associated with somebody with these viewpoints. And, you know,

he had been a, you know, quote unquote ambassador for 10 years or something like that. I think there's been kind of a recalibration of, you know,

how we look at, at athletes and the way they've conducted themselves. And we don't, it's almost now, hey, we don't have tolerance for,

oh, you were a bad guy in the 80s, that's okay. Like, no, it's not okay. And we need to, you know, we need to kind of reconcile some of that. So I think there's a lot of conflicted feelings flowing through the sports world

and the hockey world today, Julian, where you see, again, on one hand, one of the great players of a generation. And when fans who are a lot older than us maybe think back to some of their fond memories as a young hockey fan, they might think of number nine flowing down the ice with the hair and slap shot and all those things. And so they may have today a different feeling because a part of their childhood has passed away. And I'm very much aware of that.

But it's the great conversation. It doesn't just have to be, focus on hockey. The difficulty we have is fans in media of separating the art from the artist. Right? And Bobby Hall would be a great example of, I have a really hard time.

Now knowing what I know. I'm saying, I didn't know this stuff 10 years ago, 15 years ago. Yeah. But knowing what I know, it's really hard, right? to kind of to look at this news today and, you know, and, okay, I guess here's my point. I would feel really disingenuous if I got on this microphone and said, God, it's a really,

I feel really sad today. And I feel a real loss. Because I'll be honest, I don't know. I guess my point is I don't know how to feel. And sometimes that's okay. I don't know how to feel. I think we'd feel a lot differently about this topic. If and I say this.

perhaps just with a bird's eye view of things, and maybe people who are genuine fans of Bobby Hall can speak differently to this. But I think we'd feel differently about Bobby Hall if he spent at some point in his life in his later years, at least trying to atone for some of the stuff that he did. You know, I feel with celebrities who pass now, You know, it's weird to think of Kobe Bryant in this, but I think this happened a lot with Kobe in that we did a lot to remember his legacy.

Very different people understand. Both have transgressions, but obviously one with on a different level than the other. But obviously with people who have something like that in their past, like it's easy to bring it up and say like, oh, well, this person did this. Like, let's be mindful of how they celebrate. But I wonder if for certain people, at least people who are up on that stature, if they do something bad, like how you made the reference about, hey, you know, people in the 80s, they did all this stuff and they're trying to, you know, they might still have those values today. If some of those people at least realize that maybe what they did in the past was not right and they went about their lives differently or at least tried to say like, hey, what I did was a mistake and I'm trying to be better from that. do we look at them differently? And we'll never know in the case of Bobby Hall, I guess,

but I would imagine maybe it would be a bit more palatable to think about his legacy a little bit more positively. But just as a much younger person who has not seen him live and has, like, their, my view, like, it kind of goes hand in hand with the records. or the numbers that he has, but the quotes, which I understand he's refuted about, about Hitler and the allegations that have followed him, that doesn't come across to me. He doesn't come across to me as the best type of person. And I could also understand that some people might hear this and they might think,

well, why are we having this discussion now? This person has just died. But this is, I think we're the type of people to have this discussion because of what we see with the reaction with this player, right? Like, we wouldn't just do this just because, like, oh, well, we just want to dump on a player. Like, this is, like, right now as you're listening to this podcast, people are wrestling with how to commemorate Bobby Hall's legacy. If you go on any NHL team social media page right now and you find a tweet of them saying, hey, we want to express our condolences to Bobby Hall, I guarantee you, you go in the mentions. someone will reference whatever article in the Moscow

Times or whatever where he says that where body halt references Adolf Hitler. Like I think you're guaranteed to find salt at least one person make that reference. Like it's a complicated legacy. It's, and it's disappointing considering the fact he is one of the best goal scorers of the league has seen. And he should be remembered for that,

but we are going to remember him for so many other different things. It's a very complicated legacy. Exactly. And with complicated legacies come complicated feelings, right? And that's, it's okay. It's a great to be, again, like I said, sometimes I think we work so hard to try to find out, you should feel like this or that.

Sometimes you feel two things. You can feel multiple emotions at the same time, you know? And it's okay. It's okay if you grew up watching Bobby Hall that a part of your childhood was watching him rip down the ice and score a goal. And if that's how and why you feel. fell in love with hockey, that's okay. We don't, you know, we don't want you to, you know, potentially, you know, have that all, memory altered because that stuff matters to your

childhood, but it's the, it's the totality of the person, right, that I think comes into, into play on, on days like this. And look, the NHL put out a statement, to Gary Bettman put out a statement on the passing of Bobby Hall. And, you know, part of it, Julianne, it reads, the National Hockey League mourns the passing of one of its most iconic and distinctive players as gregarious a personality as he was explosive as a player. I didn't expect it. Look, the NHL is not going to go into any of this stuff in an official release. But if you're wondering how the league is handling this,

they call, again, they called him one of the most iconic and distinctive players in the history of the game, which is probably factual. Some people are going to choose to do that, but also, you know, it's, man, Nazi sympathizer. and again, again, he's refuted some of that, but like that reputation is just going to follow it. It's followed in, essentially. And it's a shame.

And look, and that statement comes off of, out of the office of Gary Batman, who, by the way, this week, Julian, on Wednesday, will celebrate a milestone. 30 years in the commissioner's chair, Wednesday of this week. Sheesh.

February 1st will mark 30th anniversary of 1st of 1st. of Gary Bettman taking over as the commissioner of the National Hockey League. So big picture question here, do you believe there should be term limits on sports commissioners? Yes or no? I'll say yes. I think it's cool to see different people take the mantle of a commissioner job and apply different things, get a different variety and not just have the same old thing all the time.

The one thing I'm trying to think of is what is an appropriate length for a commissioner is, as I feel like five years is too short for whatever reason, I guess. Maybe 10 years is sufficient, 10 or 15 years. I mean, obviously, if something else happens, I guess they could always leave. But I feel like 10 years might be sufficient for, commissioners. I feel like it just gets them a lot of time for them to implement things that they might want in the league, establish enough sufficient relationships with owners,

and other, I guess, kind of things to ensure that revenue can be generated. I think that's enough to have an impact on the league. 15 maybe might be a little better. But like, I don't think, I don't feel commissioner for a league should be like a presidential term where it's like four or five years. Like, I don't feel that's enough time for you. to really like kind of establish a legacy for yourself in this league. I'm all for it. I just think like like 30 years is a long time. And maybe we're doing,

we're thinking of it this way because it's Gary Bettman. It's a lot of time to get yourself with some discussions about lockouts, you know. It's canceled season and canceled seasons and salary cap and stuff. Like 30 years might be a bit too long for anybody. So, but, but 50. years might be enough. I think I agree with you. I think 15 years or 15 seasons, however you want to

slice it, that feels right. Like it's long enough for you to have an impact, but not too long that, okay, at the end of it, you're like, okay, you've been, like, I think 30 years is, and this will go for anybody, leader of a political party, CEO of a company, 30 years is too long. And I don't mean that with any disrespect,

other than, yes, you've provided a steady and stable hand, but at some point, you need to make way for a new vision and a new voice and a new way of doing things. And it doesn't matter if you've, and Gary Bettman has grown the business. Gary Bettman has done a great job of keeping Canadian teams in place. I don't people in Winnipeg would disagree with that at one point in the 90s. They're back. And I don't think that any other Canadian team is in jeopardy. But I think 30 years feels a touch long to me. And again, I don't know what the succession plan is, but I think it's a significant date on the calendar on Wednesday

that this guy's going to be celebrating 30 years. Like, we'd have to go back and look at all of the commissioners of all the big four sports. Man, like maybe Pete Roselle in the NFL was in this neighborhood. Like, what commissioner has served the longest? How long was David Stern in? I feel like he was probably in for a question. a long time.

David Stern was absolutely north of 30 years, right? Yeah, he was there for a long time. So, you know. Yeah, he was there. He was 1984 to 2014. That's 30 years. Yeah. Yeah.

That's almost exact. Like, he was in office February 1st, 1984 through January 31st, 2014. That's 30 years. So he went out exactly 30 years. 30 years. That's insane. Pretty much to the day. Damn.

Yeah, David Stern. Wow. So Gary Bettman, if he, wow, Gary Bettman being a commissioner longer than David Stern was, that's a long time. Man. I, you know what? Boy, I'd have to look at, we'd have to look this up and see, like I said, what, like I, baseball used to have those commissioners way back in the day. like Kennesaw Landis and, you know, those guys were in charge for a long time,

if I'm not mistaken. But anyway, it's a good conversation to have. What's a realistic term limit? And I think that that'll be a conversation. I'm sure that comes up around the All-Star game this weekend is kind of what's the future of Gary Bettman? You just celebrated 30 years on the job. You know, and I found Gary Bettman, too,

like you're reaching a point in your 70s, wouldn't you want to just go and enjoy, enjoy your life a little bit. There's been tremendous pressure on this guy over the years, right? Whether it's lockouts or, you know, media and scrutiny, wouldn't you want to just go and enjoy some time in the sun, in some time just, I don't know, not being the commissioner of a major sports league in North America?

I would love, if you're Gary Bettman, how would it feel going to like arenas and not being booed? but maybe he, I think he probably likes the booze, actually. He probably thinks it's endearing. But, yeah, like, maybe he would look at it that way. I'm also curious if it ever gets to, whenever it gets to that point, really, because he can't be there forever.

I wonder who would end up succeeding him? Like, who would be a viable can't, like, who do you, I don't know how that works in terms of looking for a commissioner, but like, who do you look to to succeed him? Like, who, like, who do you think of? Like, you find, like, a high-powered attorney, someone who is already in the league office, someone who's in a completely different league, someone who's like a high ranking exec at a company somewhere,

some big businessman. What if like an HLGM one day is like, hey, put my name in for NHL commissioner, right? Like, I have no idea how, like, where do you think, like, like, how, like, where do you even go for, for, for, for, for, to look for, like, a commission? I mean, let's see, just go to anyone off the street. But like, like, I would love to know how that process works. Is this the opportunity for us to do a natural LinkedIn jobs? Is that where you go?

Were you looking to hire? No. It's a great question. You don't publicly post this. Look, I would imagine that there's already kind of a search team in place, right? That have kind of identified. And maybe Bill Daly would be one candidate. Maybe Bill Daly.

That's actually a good idea, yeah. You know, Bill would probably be a good, you know, potential candidate, knows the ins and out to the business. I think is pretty well respected in most circles, good communicator, all those things. Like, Bill would check a lot of boxes, I think, for a lot of people, including the legal background. But I wonder, yeah, I wonder how this would go. And like, you know, what would the interview process even be?

Like, who's interviewing you as the commissioner, I guess the exact. executive, the owner's executive committee there would be, I guess, the ones conducted that interview. It'd be fascinating to see how, like, I'd love to go back and see, like, how, like, you know, how did, like, how did Roger Goodell get the job in the NFL? Like, how did, right? Like, how did that all happen? And Rob Manfred and Major League Baseball. Like, what was the interview process like for that job, right?

Like, do they ask you the standard? Like, where do you see yourself in five years? Or maybe they're like, where do you see the league in five years, right? I don't know. Where do you see yourself in 30 years? Because that seems like the standard number. Pete Roselle was there for almost 30 years. I looked this up.

Pete Roselle, yeah. Pete Roselle was there from the 60s into the 80s, right? Yeah, from 1960 into 1989. He's also the youngest commissioner in the history of the NFL at 33 years old. He was 33 when he started as commissioner? Yep. is the youngest commissioner 33 years old.

Man, have you ever seen pictures of Gary Betman when he took over as commissioner? Like it was the All-Star weekend in Montreal in 1993 when he took over. Have you ever looked at pictures of this? I got to look this up now. Look up Gary Batman February 1993,

Gary Batman. Oh my God. Is he wearing the All-Star jersey in the picture you're looking at? Not this picture I'm looking at, but he looks so much younger and happier. Oh, I got to find the All-Star jersey then. All-Star jersey.

Google Gary Bettman, All-Star, 1993. I think that should do it. All-Star, 1993. Let's see if he... Oh, I see it. Oh, that's so funny. He looks so happy. He looks so happy and joy.

What a big smile on his face. I know. That's funny. See, now I've realized. That's kind of wild. I am now older now than Gary Betman was in that photo you're looking at. I'm older than Gary Bettman when he took over his commissioner. What have I done with my life?

Jesus. This is 93, right? Yeah. Boy. I think Gary was 44 when he took over his commissioner. I was negative one. Negative one. I was not alive yet.

Yeah. It was still a year. year and two months away from from living at least i know hey listen i was in high school i was in the 11th grade for uh in the 11th grade you was about to you was about to wait you were were you in vancouver still i was in vancouver okay well watching young pavel burrett anyway you guys don't have see jeep anyway so you guys went straight to university right yeah right off to university it was 11th grade yeah and i don't know how you guys do it going from grade 11 to university.

That's such a jump. Well, no, there is something called grade 12. Okay, yeah, fine, but that's still a jump. What do you mean? No, everyone else does it. Nah, that's crazy, man. I know a lot of people like to hate on CJIP, but I like that buffer of, like, pre-university

where, like, you're sort of still, like, high school-ish, but, like, you're getting used to, you know, just go into classes on your own and not just, like, It's like sending you to the HL when you don't, like, you're ready for the, you're ready for the NHL and they're like, you need to go to the HL for seasoning to learn what it's like to be a pro. Get out of here. I don't know, man.

You see how some of these kids go to university? Like, when they get all that responsibility, they get themselves like crazy at Frosh and stuff. Like, they can't handle that responsibility, man. Like, I don't know, man. You got to be a little careful with that. That's just my viewpoint. That's just you. All right.

Hey, let's wrap up the pod like we always do with a couple of regular segments here, my friend. Let's start with this, Jack Adams winner of the week. We look back the last seven days and trying to determine who did the best job coaching. Look, got to give a shout out to DJ Smith and Ottawa. A week ago, Julian, the senators were rock bottom, awful run that they had there, responded with three straight wins, including a pair of beatdowns against their two biggest arch rivals, Toronto and Montreal. So DJ Smith, hats off to you.

three and oh last week. I thought you did a great job. Tampa, Anaheim and Carolina, they also went three and oh last week. But Julian, I think we got to give a little love to Donnie meatballs. Don Granado.

Severs go three oh and one. I refuse to call Don Granado Donnie meatballs. What kind of name is that for a? Donny meatballs. There's like a whole thing. Isn't there in Buffalo about that? Anyway. I've never heard of this nickname.

I don't, okay. If it's, if it's actually his nickname. If Donnie Meatballs is his nickname and people actually do this, I don't have a problem. Isn't there like shirts and everything? There's all like Donnie meatballs. Donnie Meepels. Am I wrong on that? Okay.

No, you're not wrong. You're not wrong. You're not wrong. You're not wrong. You're not wrong at all. Absolutely not. Yeah. In fact, in fact, in fact, there is an article somewhere.

I'm coming across it now. I think in terms of. a t-shirts like it's a thing like that's very much a thing that's what all the sabers fans on twitter that are always like ah donnie meatballs is the best anyway don'ty meatball seven out of like what anyway i don't listen seven out of eight uh points last week uh people should read down goes brown on why you should love the sabres right now if you're looking at this solely through points percentage which is probably the way we should look at the standings yeah the buffalo Sabres are holding on to the final wild card spot in the Eastern Conference, I say we give it

to Don Granato. Coach, three out of, they win, they go 3.1 and one. I'm cool with that. I still would like to, I just, I generally, though, for the Sabres, I would love to see them find some way into the playoffs. Like, I think this team has, the fact that they've gone through essentially two rebuilds in the last decade or so, like that is tough for those fans. and they're seeing progress.

You know, they'll need their franchise goaltender to come up at some point. But like, Tage Thompson, balling, Rasmus Dalit looking like a Norris Trophy candidate. Like there's some pieces starting to come up. Owen Power, a Victor Golofsen. And I guess I called him Golifson and not Oliveson. Like they got some pieces around that team, man. And at some point, like, those guys have to be rewarded.

and nothing would make them feel better than for them to make the playoffs. If they find a way into this postseason, man, good for them. So, yeah, I'm with you. Let's give it to Donnie Granato and shout out to him and that nickname. I have to admit, maybe it's because of the fact that I've been in all of Western Canada for four months, but I did not know Donnie Meatballs was the thing. Okay.

And I'm sorry. Every week I try and teach you something. I just didn't know I'd be teaching you about something from 2022. You know, I figured it might even go back a little farther than that. I don't know if you've seen that meme where it's like a like a screen grab of like Shaq on it. Like a screen grab of Shaq with like this quote say like, I apologize. I was not familiar with your game. Like I kind of sort of feel that way with Sabres fans.

Like I'm sorry Sabers fans. I was not familiar with your nickname. Donnie Meatball. Donnie meatballs. You know what? You've swayed me. I'm cool with it. I'm not going to hate anymore.

I love it. All right. wrapping up with a little multiple choice madness. That's where we look at a question, give you a couple of options, and your listeners can play along as well. Arpin and I got together, Julian, wrote a piece today.

Ottawa and Montreal are in the middle of a home-and-home series. And we thought, why not have a little fun, maybe not fun for Montreal fans? But let's go back and redo the 2018 draft and say, what would happen if the Montreal Canadiens instead of drafting Jesperi Katkiniemi

took Brady Kachuk. What would, how would the trajectories of those two franchises be altered? If Kachuk went to Montreal and, you know, who knows? Ottawa, maybe they draft Philip Zedina. Maybe they draft Quinn Hughes, whatever. Like there's a bunch of different, you know, roads you could go down. So we had a lot of fun putting that together. But it leads me to this multiple choice question.

We're only looking at the last 10 years or so, okay? Okay. I'm going to give you three, what, if scenarios, you tell me which fan base should kind of be kicking themselves the most on these ones. Okay. Okay. Is it A, should Flyers fans be angry with what if the Flyers drafted Kail McCar instead of

Nolan Patrick? So 2017, they draft Nolan Patrick and then Heiskenen and maybe even worse, Kail McCar, go right after them. So should Flyers fans be the most upset that they could have had Kill McCar? Should it be Boston fans, Julian? They go back to 2015. They had back to back to back picks in the first round. That's so rare.

They use them to take Jake DeBrosk. And DeBreska's been a good player. So I don't want to in any way, shape, or form label him a bust. But they sandwiched that pick with Jacob Zaborl, Zachsonition, neither of whom has had a significant impact at the NHL level. Instead, Boston could have had Matt Barzell. Kyle and Kyle Connor, Thomas Shabbat. So maybe Bruins fans are the ones who could be screaming what if the most.

I gave you one more. The Vancouver Connects have just had an awful go, but maybe things wouldn't be so awful, Julian, if in 2014 they drafted Matthew Kachuk, instead of Oli U. Levy. So which of these fan bases, Boston, Philly, Vancouver should be screaming the loudest and most upset about their what-if draft pick scenario? This is so interesting because the obvious answers should be.

be the Boston Bruins? It's the Boston Bruins. I'm overthinking this. You have a chance at three like all-star players. Kyle Connor is the little slept-on goal score in the league. Thomas Shabbat is a first-paring defenseman. Matthew Barzal is a solid, is a solid first-line forward on so many different teams. And the Bruins could have had all of those players.

And I get the draft is a crapshoot, but like, ugh, that is so frustrating. frustrating, especially now where, you know, we look at how this Bruins team is, is probably still at the end of their window. We don't think about that much, but like, they're playing really well, but, like, technically with Berger on there, and I know they still have Bradmore Shaw, and they still have to figure out David Pasternak, but, like, they're technically at the end of, of some kind of road with what they have right now, and depending on how things go, their offseason could look, could be pretty drastic.

But, like, imagine if they had Barzal, Connor, and Shabbat, like, in the wings to be like, Hey, like, you guys can pick up the slack and keep this going. We could be talking about, maybe not Dinist team, or one of the more dominant NHL teams of the last how many years, maybe. You know, and maybe some Leip's fans would be very sick at that. I know Canadian fans would be sick at that, but like, man, the Bruins would be so much better off. But also, the Flyers, man.

I mean, a lot, Kail McCar, man. Every time I think of people who are all like, oh, no, well, I want our team. team to tank to get first overall. And I don't want our team outside of that. Like, I don't want our team missing out on a number one overall pick. The draft is a crapshoot. You could end up with a generational talent at fourth overall.

Look up players in the last how many years who were drafted fourth overall. Pretty decent company. And the Vancouver Canucks, well, the easy answer for them is maybe they would have found a way to have Matthew Kachukleave anyway. I think that's how they console themselves with that. You know what? I think it's Philadelphia for me because when you look at McCar and what he's done, Norris Trophy, Khan Smyth, all that, like, and people saying he could be this generation's, you know, Bobby Oars is a little strong, but, but you know what I mean?

Like this generation's best defenseman for the next decade. And like you had him, the chance to draft him. It's not like, it's not like one of those situations where you drafted somebody and they're good, but you could have somebody better. Like Nolan Patrick was a non-factor for them, right? Like it's it's like you had the number two pick overall and you did nothing with it. Unfortunately, because a young man was always banged up and hurt. And instead you could have had the best defenseman of your generation right there in Philly.

I got to tell you, I think it's Philly. I think it's Philly. Yeah. All right. Could you imagine if the Philadelphia Flyers had cable car and they found it way to bring Johnny Goddrell home? man. Oh, exactly. Then you start to think of all these different what if, you know.

But then you think, well, what if John Totorello was coaching Kail McCar? I don't know. Anyway. Oh, no. It makes you think. You know what? I shouldn't say, oh, no, because I got at least from a coaching standpoint, give John Tororella credit because he has a cup and he does find ways to get the best out of, you know,

teams that maybe aren't necessarily as good. I have questions about how he coaches up Kail McCar. I have genuine questions. Does he give him that freedom? Does he make him play more defensive? Like, I have questions. And maybe I'm glad we'll never really know. Yeah, exactly.

That's the beauty of the what if, the what if stuff. So, all right, we'll leave it there. We'd love to hear from people on anything we've touched on tonight, the Rangers and Flyers and the Pride Night stuff. And feel free, like on the Oilers eBug thing. Um, if you think I'm being a old cynical, whatever, like, let me know. Like, I always leave room to be open. I just, ah, I don't know why.

I don't want to be cynical to help me up. I'm still surprised you took that viewpoint, man. Wow. Wow. But I wanted to be honest with the listeners. I didn't want to come on here and be fake and be like, I loved it. I, ah, anyway, I, I don't want to be this cynical. Help me be less cynical listener.

tweet at me. You can leave us a rating and review as well. We certainly, we read all the comments that come our way. So we'll, you know, follow us on your favorite podcast platform. Leave us that rating review. Leave us the feedback from this episode. We would love to hear that on anything we touched on today. And you can also get a one-year subscription to the Athletic for $2 a month when you visit theathletic.com.