The Athletic Hockey Show - NHL All-Underachieving Team draft

Episode Date: November 11, 2024

Laz and guest cohost Peter Baugh each pick three forwards, two defensemen, and a goalie to fill out their roster of underachievers a month into the season. Plus, the guys take a quick look around the league and discuss which team is the favorite to win the Metro, Tanner Jeannot’s suspension, if the 2024 Jets or the 2012 Blackhawks own the best start in NHL history, and more.Hosts: Mark Lazerus and Peter BaughExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Chris Flannery Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show. And welcome to the Monday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. I am Mark Lazarus, joined by a special guest today in for Max. It is a multi-purpose writer for the athletic base head of New York. He's the author of a book on the 2022 Colorado Avalanche, Force of Nature. He's the owner of some of the absolute most baffling food takes you've ever heard in your life. He is the single proudest St. Louisian, St. Louisson. I don't even know how to pronounce that.

the proudest man of St. Louis you'll ever meet in your life. You can pronounce it, the Paris of the Midwest. I will not do that. And he's one of the most talented hockey writers in the world. We've got Peter Ball here. Peter, how are you? I am doing all right. Thank you.

That was a very kind introduction. You know, I was looking at, I was actually, I was going on Twitter search function trying to find some of your worst food takes. And I think ice in red wine might have been the most offensive one. Okay, that's, I've grown a little bit, but I did, I did, I did, I did, I did, I did, I did, I did, forget that I I did experiment with that. You said at one point that raisin brand would be elite

if it had more raisins in it? That's true. That is an absolutely insane thing for a human being to say. I have a box of raisins on top of my fridge right now. I just had a giant handful. Are you four? Do you have a juice box with it? One of those apples sauces you can?

I do often have apples sauce in my fridge. I don't currently. And you said that ham is better than steak. That's true. That's just so not true. I would rather have a good burger than a good steak. I just, I don't know what to do with you, Peter. I can't believe I haven't to spend the next hour with you.

Anyway, so here he's got guys sitting here wearing a New York Yankee shirt just to taunt me in the wake of the Mets. That's false. Also, that shouldn't taunt you. The Mets never played the Yankees in the playoffs. It's not a Yankee's shirt. Ichero Suzuki was my favorite player growing up. It is an Icho jersey that happens to have a Yankees logo on it from when he was on the Yankees.

But it is, I'm not a Yankees fan. It is an Eichero T-shirt. Just know that I am judging you every second of this podcast. Like literally every second. I'm judging you for every time I see that shirt here on the little screen on my computer right now. You've been in New York for what? About a year now, right? Last 10 months.

10 months. All right. So you've been in New York for a year. You covered the avalanche for us before that. You covered what, Missouri football for us before that. Tell me the difference in the vibe covering the Rangers, and less so the Islanders and the Devils, but I know you dabble there, but covering the Rangers versus covering the avalanche. What are some of the, what surprised you about making that move?

Yeah, I think it's a different, the styles of the organization are different just in how they handle a lot of different things, whether it's information flow or kind of media access postgame or media availability in general. it's just probably a little more, I would say maybe a little more tight, a tighter ship here with access, which obviously the Rangers have their reasons for that. Not always the most conducive for our jobs,

but to each organization their own. But I think that it's a team-wise, it's interesting because both of the teams I've covered most consistently since coming to the athletic, well, on the hockey side, Missouri football does not fall to this. Our teams that have like, well, although this year it does, but are teams that have, I guess, playoff aspirations and championship aspirations. And I think it's, I've been very interested in kind of almost the polar opposites of how

the teams are constructed just in terms of the avalanche were such a dominant team with their skaters. And I still think even if they get fully healthy at some point, we'll still. be a pretty dominant team with their skaters. Almost, I don't want to say in spite of their goaltending, at points in spite of their goaltending and points they've had fine. Darcy Kemper, when they won the cup, was a good goalie.

But he was not one of the stars of the team by any means. Rangers, meanwhile, it's kind of the total opposite. They're middle of the pack team skaters-wise, five-on-five numbers-wise, certainly have more talent than middle of the pack, I would say. But five-on-five, at least they're kind of a lot their numbers are middle of the pack. And then they have just one of the best gullies in the world. So different styles of teams. And then, and it's New York. There's more people around.

There's more people covering it. And, and that's fun. But, but it's, it's been good. How many times have you heard a local TV or radio person say, what's it like to play at Madison Square Garden, the world's most famous arena? Is it just different here? Well, I haven't, I haven't heard people. I think that generally during asking questions, there's not a lot of referring to it as the world's most famous arena. I feel like every time I was there with a visiting team, whoever was playing at the garden for the first time would have to answer the question, you know,

how excited are you to play in New York City? Like it's something like completely different than playing in, say, Toronto or Montreal. Yeah. I mean, I think it's a cool. It's certainly a pretty awesome arena. Oh, 100%. Yeah. But it's funny because like I grew up, you know, I grew up on Long Island.

I grew up an Islanders fan. And so I've always got this like inner resentfulness. towards the Rangers because they always were kind of like the more glamorous team, the better team in a lot of ways. But it always cracked me up because people would, you know, a player would come to the Rangers and be like, oh, are you ready for the pressure of playing for the Rangers? The Rangers are like the seventh most popular team in town.

You got both baseball teams, both football teams, both basketball teams, and then maybe the Rangers. Like in Colorado, I know this, I know it's a smaller city, but the Avalanche or number one or number two, there's nothing else. Yeah, they're not number one. The Broncos will always be number one. I always feel like we overstate the pressure of playing hockey in New York because there's so many pro sports teams that everyone's attention is always distracted.

Maybe, but I also think there's so many people there that there is a lot of, there are going to be some really big diehard fans. And because there's so many people, there's going to be probably a few more diehard fans. And so I don't think it's like necessarily completely different. but I think there's there's certainly some pressure in New York. And I think a lot of like a lot of the East Coast fan bases, I think are probably a little more. And I don't necessarily mean this as a compliment, but intense in a lot of ways, in their ways about going about their sports consumption.

Perhaps a little rougher. Yeah. Yeah. And that's not a, that's not a diss at anywhere else in the country because I don't always necessarily think it's a good thing. But I think that vibe adds some pressure. And the Rangers definitely do have a pretty intense following. Maybe it's a smaller following than the other teams in the city, but it's still pretty intense.

All right. So let's dive into this year's Rangers. They're one of the preseason favorites to win the Cup. Certainly one of the favorites to come out of the Eastern Conference. They're 9, 3 and 1. All their wins are in regulation. They've got a plus 19 goal differential. I think only Carolina is ahead of them in the east.

They've got the best PK in the league. They got a top five power play. And yet you told me you weren't really that high on them. Explain that to me. Yeah, I think that for a lot of this year, the Rangers have skated by on the brilliance of their goaltending, both Igor Shasturkin and Jonathan Quick. Last night, Jonathan Quick played an excellent hockey game.

New York got absolutely caved in for portions of the game against a Detroit team that's kind of a middle of the pack team. And I just think that, like, we saw the limits to this formula in the playoffs last year. I think you saw that when you have a team that is so reliant on special teams and so relying on goal-tending, at a certain point, one of those things is going to go cold in a two-month span, which you need to be successful. You need to have two really good months to win the Stanley Cup. And generally, one of those two.

things is going to go cold at some point. Against the Panthers, for example, the power play went cold in the Eastern Conference final last year. And they looked completely overmatched at five on five. They got worn down. Their penalties go down as series go on. We all know how like refs kind of swallow the whistle a little bit in the playoffs. I just think that this team, it's certainly one of the best teams in the Eastern Conference. It certainly wouldn't shock me if they're in the Stanley Cup final. I just think that it is, there are more problems with how this team is playing, then its record would, would tell you on the surface. You know, there's, you could look at the numbers and see a little bit of that too.

If you look at their, their team expected goals, they're basically right around even, but they're up like plus nine at five on five. And that can go directly to having two brilliant goaltenders, right? So, um, the, the, the contract stuff with Chester, and obviously that's been a dominant story and it's going to continue to be a dominant story. And the better he does, the more money he's going to make, how much of an issue has that really been? Is that just something that we in the press like to talk about, or is that something that's actually, like, permeated into the locker room? I don't think it's permeated into the locker room. I think there's a lot of pressure on this team for a lot of different reasons. I think people know, at least if

these players have agents that are straight with them, which I think they do, people know that, like, this team could look very different next year because of how much Shastarkin's going to make, because Lafranier's cap hit is going to go up to seven, whatever, because Keandre Miller is going to get paid. There's going to be differences on this team. We don't know exactly who yet. I would be surprised if Jacob Truba is back next year. We've, Arthur and I have written about that extensively. And then there are guys like Jimmy Visi, Capocaco, Ryan Lingren that are all free agents, either restricted or unrestricted, that have been like pretty consistent parts of this team the last few years that have uncertain futures. So I think that there is a sense of urgency. I mean, Jacob Trubo on the first day of

training camp said, we know this is probably the last shot with this core. which is a pretty drastic thing to say on the first day. But I don't think Shasturkin himself, I don't think that is stressing anyone out. If anything, it would put more pressure on him, but he looks as good as ever, even though he gave up a lot of goals to Buffalo. But again, that was more because of the defense in front of him

than anything he did. Do you get any sense that the Rangers are reluctant to go, 11, 11, 5, 12 on him, a million dollars a year, or is that just they fully understand that it's a no-brainer? Well, I mean, I think you've got, You look at the reporting we've made Pierre. LeBron has reported that he's turned down an offer that would have made him the highest paid goal in history. So that means over 10.5 million. I think the Rangers obviously are in a place where they're willing to offer a lot of money. If they don't sign Chesterkin, they're going to have to completely change how this team operates because this team is so goaltender dependent in a lot of ways. Because the five-on-five numbers maybe aren't as good as you would think for a team that's nine, three-and-one. They'll have to make a lot of changes and probably take a pretty significant step back if they're going to let Igor Shostirken walk.

So I would guess at the end of the day, I mean, all of the people in the Rangers organization know how valuable Igor Shostirken is. And at a certain point, they're going to have to make a decision. And I would guess it would be we're going to have to pay this guy. Yeah, there's no way they're letting Igor Shestirken walk. Especially with the cap going up, I mean, even if he's making 11, 11.5, I mean, his percentage of the cap is. still going to be significantly lower than like Carey Price was at 10.5, right? Yeah, I mean, I think, and I mean, I think that's probably why they turned down what Pierre reported, but highest goal tended contract industry.

Which could be 10.5-0-0-1 or something like that, theoretically, right? Yeah, the percentage of the cap, carry price, the 10.5, I think probably why Shostarkin isn't just signing this deal to make him the highest paid goalie ever is probably because he knows that the percentage of the cap is less than what Kerry Price's was is, is less than other goalies in the past. And he probably wants more than that. And it's also worth noting, I don't know if this is part of his motivations, but Artemi Panarin is kind of the benchmark of he's the highest paid player on the Rangers.

And if Igor Shasturkin thinks he's the best player on the Rangers, which I would agree with him if he thinks that, then he might want to get past that Panarin number. They've both been in my heart ballot multiple times the last few years. So it's certainly an interesting discussion to think who is more valuable there. Let's look at the Metro a little bit wider here. We're going to get into a draft here where the U and I draft the all underachieving team because we're just a bunch of negative Nancy's here. But before we do that, I want to get into the Metro a little bit.

Look at what Carolina is doing. I got into this discussion a little bit online today. To me, Rod Brindamore is the coach of the year. What he's been able to do with all the guys they lost for the Carolina Hurricanes to be where they are, to be just two points behind the devils as we record this with four games in hand. It's incredible what they're doing. What about the hurricanes? I mean, we know they're just, they're just this machine that like, you're Brindamore's system.

It's plug and play, you know, Eric Tulski gets the guys, puts them in, and they automatically become that much better. Goaltending's been pretty mediocre since Freddie Anderson got hurt. Like, Kachecoff's not even playing that well, and they're still just winning all these games. What is it about the Carolina Hurricanes that just is working right now? Yeah, well, they've got an elite top line. Whoever Ajo, Svetchnikov, and currently Jack Roslovich, who is pretty pedestrian on the Rangers last year. She's got nine goals and 13 games.

He had five goals in, I think, 35 games between the regular season and playoffs with the Rangers last year. So he's been excellent, and they haven't had NACIS on the top line with Ajo and Svetichikov, and he's been excellent to start the year, 23 points. and then you look at like you have a line with Stahl and Jarvis. Like that's a good, that's an excellent third line. Oh man, we were doing our predictions. You know, every month we do our updated predictions. And for Selke, I'm looking at, like there are three legitimate Selkeke

candidates on the hurricanes alone, Martinuk, Stahl, and Jarvis. They won't win because they're probably going to split the vote. I mean, I can't tell if that's a sign of how good the hurricanes are or is how good their system is. Totally. And I think it's probably a. mix of, I think the system definitely brings the best out of players defensively. But I look at like, you mentioned like Tolski, like bringing in guys and them just kind of clicking. Eric Robinson last year played seven games for Columbus, didn't have a point, was a minus three. He was also

with Buffalo for part of the year. Sorry, so he had 10 points in 47 games minus three on the year. This year he's a plus 10 with seven points in 13 games. Like it's incredible. It's really, really impressive. I thought that the Jake Gensel letting him walk was a giant mistake. And obviously, they tried to bring him back. But I thought that that was going to really plague them this year. I thought they really needed him. They lost Tara Vinen too. I mean, they've lost, they lost, you know, half their top six basically. Yes. I still have questions about them in the playoffs. I don't think those questions I have will go away until they answer them in playoffs. They still don't have the finishers. They still don't have the goalie. That's what it always is, right? Yeah. Yeah. But I think your point is good that

that they would, that Rod Brindamore would make sense as the Jack Adams winner. I think that we too often just look at the Jack Adams winner as the coach who was, took the worst team that made the playoffs to the playoffs, you know, like who had the most improvement. John Cooper never wins coach of the year. Yeah. It's a silly award, like Nick Saban, I think, won coach of the year once in college football. And to be fair, the broadcasters vote on it, not us.

So don't yell at us. Yeah. And I mean, I don't even fault them like a lot of the times it is. I definitely do. Okay. A lot of the times, honestly, it's an award that comes down to who has like the goaltender that kind of steals a bunch of games and like has leads a team to being better than what they should be. So it's a, it's an interesting award. Not one that I necessarily put a ton of stock into when looking at like, oh, should this coach be a Hall of Famer. But Rod Brindamore certainly in the regular season, that team is so good at cranking out wins. I thought they were going to take a step back this year. So far they've completely. proven me wrong. So I think the more common name you're hearing for Adams would be Spencer Carberry of the Washington Capitals. Tell me, you see them. I'm here in the Western Conference. I don't see them as often as I would like. Should I believe in the Caps? Is this legit? I don't know if it's legit.

I think Carberry is a really good coach. I covered the Rangers Capitals series last year in the first round. And this is going to sound like the most backhanded compliment ever. That's like maybe the worst playoff team I have ever seen. The fact that Spencer, the fact that Spencer Carberry got that team to the playoffs is so impressive. And now that, and now this team is kind of, they've made these additions of, of guys like Manjia Pani, Logan Thompson, like Pierre Louie Du Bois now there. Like they've, they've kind of supplemented this team.

Plus they're getting this Ovechkin resurgence and the results are falling. The fact that they made the playoffs last year with Ovechkin having as, I mean, he was good down the stretch, but in the playoffs, he was bad in the first half of the year, he was bad. The fact that they made the playoffs last year is astounding to me still. And so I can't remember if in our latest poll, if I had the capitals making the playoffs, I don't think that they are a 714 point percentage good. But I think that, like, if you're asking me who I'd rather have between him and them and the islanders, I would take the capitals, them and the penguins, I would take the capitals.

Like, the teams they have to stay in front of, I think that. that they have a, they certainly have a chance and maybe it's a 50-50 chance, but I mean, that's pretty good considering what I thought of the capitals at the end of last season. Yeah, I mean, for them to fall out at this point, one of those, the three teams we always talk about waiting to take the next step, the Detroit, Buffalo, Ottawa, Triumvirate, one of them is going to have to make up an absolute ton of ground because of this incredible start that Cap 7. We talk all the time on the show about just how difficult it is to make up ground in the NHL because of the loser point. Yeah. Yeah, it's fascinating. I think they're a good team.

So I was looking earlier at our friends at BetMGM have their odds to win the division. Right now the hurricanes are heavy favorites, plus 110. Rangers are next to plus 250. The devils are at plus 400. The Caps are at 900. The Islanders, then it gets crazy. Islanders at 3,000. Penguins at 8,000.

Flyers at 15,000. And the Blue Jackets at 25,000. So there's four teams, three teams, really. No offense to the caps. It feels like it's the hurricanes, the Rangers and the Devils. Who do you think has the advantage? Regular season. Just talking regular season here.

Who has the best chance to win the division? Sure. It's a good question. It's kind of hard. It's so hard to not get wrapped into recency bias with how the hurricanes have looked. I think I'll say the Rangers, just because you know what the goaltending is. You know they're going to be good. They're the president's trophy winning team from last year.

They brought back pretty much the same team. They're going to be a really good regular season team. I think the devils have an extremely high ceiling. I really like the devil's roster, even though, as we're recording this, I think they're losing to the sharks. I think that they're, I really like their upside. Disqualified. I think the Rangers are, are probably the safest bet there, especially if you're taking the odds into account.

Like if you wanted to say all the odds were even, then maybe you can make the case of the hurricanes. But if the Rangers are plus, what did you say, plus two? Plus 250. Plus 250? Like, that's honestly, that's a pretty good bet. The Rangers definitely have the highest floor, I think, of those three teams. Like, they're not going to fall back too far. They're going to be in it to the end where you can see the other teams like, you know,

if Jacob Markstrom's on that, you know, I feel like the Rangers have the highest floor that I think you're right. Yeah, although Carolina's floor clearly is very high. I think they could put me and you on the second line and they'd still be contending for the division at this point. Yeah. We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, we are going to draft the all underachieving team one month into the season. All right, we're back. Mark Lazarus and Peter Baugh here.

We are about to draft the all underachieving team in the NHL one month into the season. Now, we've got to set some expectations here, right? We're not here to kind of crap on some fourth liners. We're looking at big names that we know are capable of more that are underperforming early in the season. I don't know how you win a draft like this, Peter? Is it they have to stay bad or do they have to get good? I'm not really sure there's a point to this, but we're going to do it anyway. We're going to pick three forwards.

We're not breaking it down by position. That gets a little complicated. Three forwards, two defensemen, one goalie in any order you want. Peter, you're the guest here, so I'm going to put the pressure on you and you get to go first. Who are you taken? Yeah, so gracious of you. And again, we should clarify it. This is because these are players who we know are good hockey players.

We're not calling them bad hockey players. We're just saying they got off to slow start. I can see the aggregators already. Peter Boss says X-O-and-so is terrible. Yeah, no aggregators. And these players, I think very highly of all of them as hockey players. I wish we could do that. Like, you know, like when you're like, you know, like when you're a kid, you just say,

no aggregators. and then they wouldn't be allowed to aggregate you. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I'm with you. I'm going to start with a guy who I think we're still kind of waiting for him to pop throughout his career. He's had a few 60-point seasons, was on the cover of the EA sports video game, and that's Trevor's egress. He has three points in 13 games.

He's a minus six. The Ducks aren't controlling. Analytically, it's not going great for the Ducks when he's, on the ice. Granted, it's, it's not going great for a lot of the ducks when, when a lot of the ducks are on the ice. So that might not be the biggest knock on him.

But it just feels like this is a guy who clearly has a ton of talent and is clearly shown. I mean, if you look at like his, his rookie year, he had had 61 points in 75 games. Like it's, and he had 23 goals in each of his first two seasons and he's just kind of falling off of Clifson's then.

Yeah. And last year was kind of a lost year. He had a bunch of injuries. But like, look at his first. year compared to like, I'm kind of saying this just to like poke at you last, but look at his first year compared to his first full year compared to Connor Bedard's first full year. Their numbers are pretty similar and they were both on pretty bad teams. Like it's, this was a guy who had an excellent rookie season. He was a phenomenon. His style and his flare and he was pissing off the traditionalist. It was great. And now you just, it's just not a guy you ever hear from anymore. I've been playing an adalimes part of that. But no, he's a good pick. And I think there's more there. I think he'll,

I'm sure he'll get on a streak at some point where he has a bunch of points in a bunch of games, but he's going to be my first pick. All right. I'm going to stay with the forwards. I'm torn between three names here. I think I'm going to go. I feel like the Nashville Predators, they are the most disappointing team, the biggest underachieving teams.

I want to start with them. Stamcoe seems to be coming alive a little bit. I'm going to go with Jonathan Marchesau. He's got three goals and six assists in 15 games. He had 42 goals last year. There's a reason they went out and got him. The Predators, this is. unbelievable to me, have zero goals at five on five with Jonathan Marchesot on the ice.

Wow. They've been outscored 7-0 at 5-on-5. He's got two power play goals and one OT winner at three-on-three. There's a lot of bad numbers on this Predators team. Roman Yossi's got like a 17-6 against differential and Stamco's drought. This is not going well in Nashville for obvious reasons, obviously, but I feel like Marchesote, there were like 20% of the way through the season, and the Preds haven't scored with him on the ice yet.

So I'm going to go with Jonathan Marchesau that forward. Yeah, it's not what you want. I actually was looking at when I was doing research for the goalies, I was like, well, maybe UC Saras will be someone I take because he's on the predators. But then I look at his numbers. He's been solid. This is not his fault. No.

It is not his fault at all. And so I was, I'm just saying like in my research process, I was just kind of astounded of like, holy cow, they're getting decent goaltending. and they have all these names and they're close to the bottom of the standings. I mean, God, Barry Trott's just throwing the rebuild word around. I mean, how would you even start with that team, DeRoeira? I mean, it's, it's belief, man. They're saying the rebuild word a few months after signing Marches-O Brady Shea and Stephen Stamcoast.

All whom have terrible numbers, just brutal. Three of the biggest names in free agency. So, yeah, I think that clearly if we were doing it. a team underachieving draft, they would probably be the number one overall pick. I felt they needed to be represented. I mean, they need to go find a concert to cancel or something because they need something to spark. Yeah. And they, and hey, I don't want to spoil too much, but they might not be done being represented in this draft so far. All right. What's that? Round two. I think I'm going to go the goaltending route. And I think I'm going to go

to Tristan Jari. He's just really had a tough go for Pittsburgh this year. 836 save percentage. I believe he got sent home on a road trip at one point just to kind of clear his head. He clearly is really struggling on the ice. He's back up with the NHL club now after a stint in the AHL. I'm rooting for him. I hope he figures it out. But it's been a tough start to the year. He's only played three games and he had an 836 save percentage. I think he got pulled in one of those games. It's just been a tough go from a goalie that Pittsburgh really pinned a lot of a lot of faith on and for good reason. It's had some really good seasons, but it's been a tough start. And hopefully kind of this reset in the age, I will help him get back on track.

I dispute the for good reason part of that. I remember when that signing happened, I was like, are you hitting me? But no, that's fair. I had, it's funny. I had three goalies, you know, in mind for this. And none of them were Tristan Jari. So there's a lot. lot of goalies having rough starts here. Yeah, there was, uh, I, I obviously like still am, uh, am pretty tuned in. Well, I actually, no, I'm not going to say that. I don't want to spoil any future picks. Your pick. I can, I can wait. The beauty is I can wait till the last pick pick to the last pick goalie now. So I'm going to do that. Yeah. Um, I'm going to go, I think I'm to go with defense. And I'm going to pick someone you know well, DeFont Taves. He has zero goals and

three assists in 11 games. Uh, he is a 50 point guy each of the last two seasons. This is a guy, you know, talked about as playing on the top pairing for team candidate, the Four Nations Cup or Four Nations Face Off, whatever name it as, alongside Kale McCarr, because obviously, you know, they know each other, but he is playing very poorly.

He is giving up just every time I watch the avalanche, it's just odd man rush after odd man rush against. He's giving up 13.83 high danger scoring chances per 60. That's the worst among Colorado's defensemen by a pretty wide margin. And, you know, that's your primary job as a defenseman, is to not give up high danger scoring chances. And he's not producing at the other end either.

This is a very, very good defenseman who I've been, you know, I've had him on Norris ballots in recent years. And he just does not look like himself so far early in the season as he works his way back. Yeah, I think one of the biggest things with him is that he's plus minus is a very flawed statistic. I think we all know that. Defensemen are the ones that care about that number, though. When you talk to an actual NHL defenseman, they're like, I was a minus three. I was a dash three today. Yeah.

And he's minus four. on the year. The reason that's so jarring to me is because let me read you, since he's been in Colorado, last year, plus 28, year before, plus 39, year before plus 52, year before plus 29. In four years, in his past four years in Colorado, he's a plus 148, which I believe led the NHL during that span. I could be hard to top that, yeah. A lot of that has to do with the team you're on, but yeah, it's obviously he's not playing the way we're used to seeing him play. Yeah. And he's had, I think he missed a couple games with injury. The team's been struggling.

Maybe he was rushing back. I'm not fully sure. I'm not overly concerned about him. I think he's an excellent hockey player. But yeah, not the start you want from Mr. Taves. But I'm not all that concerned. Round three, I'm going to stick with a defenseman. I'm going to pick a guy who, honestly, one of my favorite players in the league.

I think he's an excellent hockey player. Charlie McAvoy. That's who I was. I was torn between picking McAvoy. or taves first. Yeah, four points in 16 games. His underlying numbers aren't nearly where you would expect for Charlie McAvoy. He's underwater.

He is underwater in almost every metric. Yeah, which is just a really strange, it's really strange for him. He's, he's so good. He's someone I've had on Norris Ballard before. And I, again, he's, he's 26 years old. Like, I think he's going to. Totally washed. Peter Ball, aggregators.

Peter Ball, Charlie McAvoy, washed. Charlie McAvoy washed. Yeah, he, he's, he's just had a really tough start to the year. And I think that's been reflected in kind of the Bruins. I know they've kind of started to write the ship a little bit of late. But 7, 7 and 2 through 16 games is not what we're used to seeing for the Boston Bruins. No, it really does feel like he's emblematic of the Bruins as a whole. Like something's just off.

Like, it's hard to, like, it's hard to explain why it's happening, but it's clearly happening. Yeah. This was, you know, you talk about the Norris. The Norris is such a narrative award. We always talk about that right, where it's someone's turn. It really felt like going into this year, there was a realistic chance that this was Charlie McAvoy's turn. He had another big year. It might be his turn again.

Now, obviously with Caleb Carr on pace for 135 points, he's running away with it at the moment. But it really, like that's how highly everyone thinks to Charlie McAvoy. So it is pretty shocking the start that he's having. Yeah. But it does seem like the Bruins of late have started to maybe kind of write the ship a little bit. So I'm not overly concerned. But yeah, really, it's kind of when I was doing research for this, I was a little jarred seeing kind of how pedestrian he's been to start the year. All right.

Well, I'm going to go back to forward. I got so many guys I want to use here. We'll have to have some honorable mentions afterwards. I'm going to go with Andre Kuzmanko, the Calgary Flames. He has one goal in 15 games this year. This is a guy who had 39 goals as a rookie in Vancouver just a few years ago. He had 14 goals in 29 games after being acquired. from Vancouver last year for Calgary.

They pinned a lot on this guy, and he is, it's just not working out. It's just not, he's not producing. And it's always bizarre to me when you have a guy spike a monster season, and then he can't score again after that. And that's not exactly what this is. He's still kind of relatively, he's only been, I think this is his fourth year in the league, but he's been a producer, and now it's just not there at all. And, you know, Calgary had a great start to the season.

They've kind of fallen back to Earth. If they have any prayer of competing in the West. conference, he's going to have to pick up his scoring a lot. Yeah. Yeah, that's a fair. I looked at a couple, there were a couple guys from from the flames who you could look at, which is kind of funny because they actually got off to a pretty good start. But there are a couple of their big guys who you're like, oh, maybe this, their numbers aren't quite what you'd maybe want them to be. All right. Who you got? I'm going to go to a guy that, that you know well, excuse me, that I think it's tough.

It's another class of 2019 draft pick. I think I'm going to go with Kirby Doc. Yes. I was wondering if this was too, maybe not a big enough name, but he had 38 points in 58 games a few years ago, missed last year with injury, which is a bummer. But this year, five points in 15 games, minus 14.

his expected goals for kind of middle of the pack on the Canadians, and obviously the Canadians aren't, uh, aren't the best team in the league by, by any means, but they're still like, the other team's getting more shots off, getting more goals,

obviously, um, getting more scoring chances when he's on the ice. And I think that this is a Canadian's team that, um, I know we didn't expect them to be good, but I think you definitely wanted to see a, more of a jump than four nine and two to start the year.

No, So the have certainly had high expectations for him after the jump, it seemed that he took before he got hurt. And that's the problem with Kirby Doc, because he's always been hurt, it seems. He's never really been able to be at his 100% self. You know, his younger brother, Colton Doc, is a prospect in the Black Hawk system. And kind of the same thing where he's been dealing with concussions and other kind of injuries. And it's a bummer because he is, I feel like Kirby Doc has all the tools to be exactly what the Blackhawks thought he would be when they drafted him. I'm just not sure he's ever going to be able to put it all together, which is a bummer.

Yeah, and it's a bummer, especially because, like, if you look at, like, after the 2022-23 season, where he had 38 points in 58 games, it's like you, if he has a healthy 23, 24, who knows what he has? And I think just from talking to you, I remember when you talked about him on the Blackhawks of, like, this is a guy that they thought could be a really good two-way player and has the size and all of that. the haves have given up a lot with him on the ice and that's not I think not the start you wanted from him and this is a team that I think a lot of people

myself included weren't expecting to be a playoff team by any means but at least we're a team that maybe I thought could have I don't know been like hanging around in December where it's like oh look at the Canadians are still kind of in the mix you know and now they're already their seasons already feels like it's kind of over a month in. I had

Doc on my kind of my long list, but I was looking at Eurice, Lefkowski's got one goal through 12 games. You know, we're kind of expecting the breakout season this year after 20 goals last year. I don't want to pile on in the habs though, so I won't pick him. Yeah, he does have eight points in 12 games though. Yeah, yeah.

He's not completely invisible, no. And he's not a minus 15. I'm going to go down to Dallas, which I still think is the best team in the league. I'm very high on the Dallas stars. I thought they were the best team last year. I think they're the best team this year. I love everything about that organization, the way they put guys and young guys in particular in a position to succeed. But I'm looking at Wyatt Johnston. He'll be my third forward. He's got one goal,

five assists in 13 games. He's been dropped to the third line. He's lost that top line spot to Logan Stankovin, who's been terrific, who's already kind of like, it's like Johnson's already old and busted, and Stankovins is the new hotness already. He's already like an old man on that team. On the one hand, just imagine how good Dallas will be if and when Johnson kind of gets it together, which I full expect he will, but it's, it's kind of shocking. This is the first time we've seen Wyatt Johnson not produced since he's been in the NHL. So it's always kind of shocking when you see a guy take a step back when you just think it's going to be a rocket ship to the moon his whole career. Yeah, I mean, when you when you said like if and when he gets going to me, that's a when,

because I'm sure we can find another 13 game span in his career when he only had one goal and five assists. But I think it's always a little jarring when someone starts the year that way. This is magnified that way, yeah. Exactly, yeah. Like you're playing catch up a little bit on the stat sheet. And I'm leaving a lot of forwards on like big name forwards on the board here. I know you got at least one more forward to pick, but I'm curious here to go with this. Well, I'm going to wait to take my forward because you, because you, you've allowed me to do that.

I think I'm going to go to defense. And I'm going to stick with Nashville. And Brady Shea, another one of their big acquisitions this summer. has really just not been, I think, what they've wanted to start. Again, this is a team that has really, really struggled to start the year, so it shouldn't be a surprise that they have a couple guys on this list. But I think looking at the defensemen, I think you can, have you picked both your defensemen?

I have not. Okay, so I don't want to, I don't want to, there were some other names I was going to throw, like say who I kind of considered. I'll wait to do that. But I think, Shea, just because of how the vibes felt in Nashville going into the year, the expectations, you touched on all of that. But this is a guy that on a team that's drastically underperforming, he's got the third lowest expected goals for a percentage on the team and the lowest by a defenseman. That's minimum 10 games played. So it's just been a really tough start for him to start the year.

I always wonder about guys who come over from Carolina and then have to play on a team that doesn't play. Carolina style and how much of a challenge that is to have to like adapt to a completely different format of playing. I don't know if that plays into it at all, but there's no doubt that Shea has been incredibly disappointing this year. Yeah. And I think it's also worth mentioning that that I think defensemen, anecdotally, it seems like sometimes defensemen take a little longer to get adjusted to a new team than goalies, or then forwards. Goalies, obviously, I think, are also in that boat. So I think that that's worth considering with him. We could look back, look up at 40 games and he's kind of doing what he did in Carolina, but so far it's been a tough start. All right. I'm going to go

to my second defenseman. I think I'm going to go with Noah Dobson of the Islanders. He has no goals in just six assists in 15 games. He had 70 points last year, 10 of them goals. This is a dark horse Norris candidate too, a guy who could, you know, we could see maybe start producing the way that some of these other high-end, you know, the O season, McCars do and Bouchards. It's hard because, you know, he's got a positive goal differential at five on five. I think it's like 13 to 9. He's not playing poorly. He's certainly not the reason the Islanders are in this, you know, kind of scuffling through right now.

It's injuries and other things. But again, when these young guys have these big breakout seasons, the big test is what they do the following year. Like, is it legit or is it a mirage? And I'm not saying it was a mirage because, you know, you don't do it. Noah Dobson did last year by mistake, by accident. But you want to see him kind of like reinforce it with a second season just like that. And so far, we're just not seeing that the Islanders just aren't scoring goals that way. And Noah Dobson's not helping him in that matter.

Yeah. And he's also someone they probably want to, I think defensively, obviously he's an offensive defenseman and a really gifted offensive player, but you probably want to see a little more on the defensive side too. And that's, that's, I think he's earned that stand. standard. He's like you said, he was someone who, I don't know if I've had him on my Norris bout, but I've certainly considered him for the nor not number one spot, but but on Norris bouts previously. So I think that is a very, a very fair pick. All right, where are you going now?

Oh, this is a, this is a tricky one. I have a large, a large list of names and I feel like I'm done taking, I'm done taking 2019 draft picks. No, I can't do another, another, another. young guy. I think I'm going to go to Vlad Tarasenko. I think I was watching the Red Wings last name. He still got it. He made a great, a great move to the net. Quick made a nice save. But three points in 13 games for a guy who, I think they paid him a hair over $4 million this year. It's a tough start, especially for a team that has felt like it's needed goals at points. You know, like this is a team that has a lot of those like Andrew Kopp, JT. Comfer, like really good, two-way centers that you're, you kind of need a few finishers around them. And I think, I mean,

Patrick Kane, I don't think he's had his best start to a season. He's on my list, too, two goals and 14 games. I mean, this is one of the greatest scores of his generation. Yeah. So maybe I should have held him to a higher standard than Teresanko. But Teresenko, he's making, I was wrong, it's 475. So he's making a fair amount of money. He's making more than Patrick Kane. Yeah. And just hasn't produced at a rate that I think they've, needed, especially as they're trying to be in that group of teams that's trying to kind of make that jump and get to the next level. All right.

So I got the last pick here, right? I believe you do. You have to get a goalie. Yeah. You know, I was torn between two guys. I'm going to go lean his own mark. He's got a minus goal saved above expected. He's got an 890 save percentage in Ottawa, three and four record.

He got a four-year deal with 8.25 a year. He got a big boy deal. this is a guy who's been a part of a tandem, his whole career really with Jeremy Swayman. Both of them got paid. Neither of them is really playing like an $8 million goalie right now. But Olmark, I feel like Swainman's coming around. Olmarsh is still kind of waiting for. And if he does, Ottawa becomes a team that could, yes, contend with the Islanders for that last

playoff spot in the east or maybe if capitals fall down to earth. If he doesn't, it's going to be another lost season in Ottawa. They need goal to end. They've needed it forever. they thought they got it and they're not getting it. Yeah. I'm not overly concerned about him. I mean, he's still, he's just under the, he's barely a negative and goal saved above expected.

He's, 890 is 890, man. 890 is 890, but that's like he has one good game and that's 900 this early in the season. Like it's still so early that I didn't have him. I maybe looked at, I think one of the things that makes this hard with goalies is, I looked a lot at like what guys are paid. And a lot of times GMs hand out contracts to goalies that are really questionable. So I looked at like Villay Huso, who got paid in Detroit and was in the minors for to start the year.

He played one game, got sent down, I think was on waivers at one point. So I was considering guys like him. Obviously Jari is in that about two of a goal. Yeah. Like that's like I feel like Jari and Huso are not guys that even if they're getting paid pretty well. They don't have the expectations of like an omar, even a Stuart Skinner, who's a guy with an 883 right now. Like, like that's kind of, maybe you and I approached this a little differently.

Like I had on my list, you know, we got our whole rosters now. We could talk about some honorable mentions. I had Austin Matthews on my list. And Zach Hyman, Zach Hyman, he's starting to come around a little bit, but he's got three goals coming off a 54 goal year. Yeah. So, you know, you can talk about the Slavkovskys and the Dillon Cousinses and the Zegris and, you know, the Kuzmancos. But there's some big names out there that aren't really living up to the hype right now either. It's funny that you mentioned Hyman.

I feel like a lot of the Oilers are starting to come around because I had a lot of oilers on my list of guys that I was considering. And then I looked at their numbers and I was like, oh, they're coming around. Yeah. Yeah. Like I had, I had, Hyman, I had Evan Bouchard, who's had a bit of an up and down start on my long list. Ryan Nugent Hopkins, like, these are all guys that I think I kind of was like. Eugene Hopkins was a 104 point guy two years ago.

He's got six points right now. It's got six points. Yeah. They were all guys that I think I was thinking about. And then I looked at the numbers and I was like, not a great start, but we definitely can find some other guys. I think that's kind of like the theme with all these guys is we all kind of, almost everybody that we named,

we kind of expect them to not necessarily level out, but regress to the mean a little bit here. I think, we call them out as underachievers because we expect more out of them. And it's very unlikely that Jonathan Marchesow just became a bad hockey player overnight, right? Wyatt Johnson's not just a crappy hockey player now. That doesn't happen. It's kind of like what you said where like if this happened in the middle of the year, it would be a slump.

It happens at the beginning of the year and it feels like a crisis. Totally. And I think you are right at like kind of how we were looking at it. Like for example, I had like Arter's Seelovs on my long list because he played in the playoffs and was pretty good last year. But the fact of the matter is that Vancouver, in their ideal version, he is not their number one goal to. It's like this is a guy who gave them a good playoff run and now is probably regressing a little bit. bit, whereas it's not someone who maybe we've seen more from previously. I looked at Alexander Georgiev. I had him on mine too, yeah, but I'm not sure what we really expected out of him.

I mean, this was a guy. Better than this. Don't get me wrong. Yeah, he, well, he kind of, I think probably the reason I didn't pick him is because his last two games, it seems like he started to come around a little bit. But this is a guy that he has a top 10 Vezna finish. He made the All-Star game last year. He led the league and wins each of the past two years. Like, the fact that they, seemingly had a crisis where they're starting Eustace on and in for a couple weeks. And early going in the season is not what you want with your goalie who's a pending free agent. You and I are saying this is a guy who more than John Maddenden in his prime. It's kind of amazing what we're doing here, actually.

All right, let's do a quick recap. Before we go to a quick break, quick recap, I had at Ford, Jonathan Marcheseo, Andre Kuzmenko, Wyatt Johnson, defense. I had Devon Taves and Noah Dobson. And goalie, I had Linus Omerk. Your team, Peter. On my team, I have Trevor Zegris, Kirby Doc, Vladimir Teresanko, Charlie McAvoy, Brady Shea, and in that, I have Tristan Jari. And Mark, before he cuts a break, I'm curious, who on your team are you most confident in will get this back on track? Oh, that's a great question.

Honestly, Wyatt Johnson. I think the team that he's on, the guys he's surrounded by, the coach he has, he's the one I'm most confident will kind of, you know, get back on track. How about you? I think that's the correct answer for you. I think on my team Charlie McIvoy. I just think really highly of him as a hockey player. He's an excellent hockey player. The Bruins had a wonky start to the year.

The goalie situation probably played into that. The fact that they didn't know if their starting goalie was going to be there until like a night before the season started. So I think the Bruins will stabilize. He will stabilize. He's really good at hockey. I'm not overly concerned about him. Everyone that we named were not mad at you.

were just disappointed. All right, we're back. Let us know who's all underachieving team you think is, I guess, more underachievey. Again, I'm not sure how you win a team like this, but there'll be a poll on Spotify where you can cast your vote for Peter or for me. If you're smart, it'll be for me. Let's a quick look around the league. Tanner, you know, got a three-game suspension for his high hit on Brock Besser.

It was a bad hit. You hit a guy in the head. There was no question. Nobody was defending the hit. This wasn't one of those Jacob Truba plays where it's like, well, maybe, I don't know. This was a bad hit. But the thing that stuck with me, Peter, is in the explanation that the Department of Player Safety put out, they list as the criteria the fact that Besser was injured.

And I hate that. I hate that we're factoring in the result and not the play itself. If Brock Besser had popped up and skated right off, it still was a bad hit that deserved a three-game suspension at the very least. Am I crazy with that? This is the way the league does it. They always factor in whether. a guy was injured or not. I don't like that.

Can I, I actually go back and forth on this. I don't have a strong take right now, but I will pose a devil's advocate for you. If you shoot someone and they just got dark, if you shoot someone, whether or not they die plays into your punishment in the legal system. That is an absolutely absurd. argument. That's more absurd than saying Raisin brand needs more raisins. I don't think this is an equivalent argument. I'm just saying, I mean, it doesn't

have to be getting shot, but like if you do like, if you, if you like, Two minutes for attempted manslaughter. If you commit vandalism and like accidentally set a fire to a house or something, you're going to get a bigger punishment if there's more property damage. I don't know, man. To me, arson's arson, right? It just,

seems like if this is taking I think if you commit arson stain argument if you commit arson all right say you're just trying to let's hear let's unschool this Peter let's hear it out you set a tree house on fire no one's in and no one gets hurt it gets extinguished

very quickly you probably and you get sued for arson and whatever so you do the same thing but the whole block catches on fire because there's a wind you're probably going to get a big punishment. I think in the smaller world of hockey, we don't have to be that big picture about it, right?

This is a league where we're trying to get these hits out of the game, right? It's that simple. We do not want guys picking guys in the head. And whether or not a player gets hurt or not, I don't think it should factor. I don't even like how they factor in sometimes, whether it's explicit or implicit when if a guy gets like a match penalty, five minutes into the game,

they're less likely to suspend someone because you essentially got a one game suspension. I hate that too. Either it's a dirty play or it's not a dirty play. Either it's a suspendable hit or it's not a suspendable hit. I don't like that we're legislating the result instead of the actual play. I agree.

I think I do agree. You just told me I was like murdering someone in the street. Again, I said I was going to play devil's advocate. I just think that like there's not a ton of consistency. even like sometimes they'll list that but like I saw Andrew Cogliano get his neck broke in a playoff game with a dirty hit the guy didn't get suspended for one game well yeah we do need some consistency here so like it's it's it's uh it's not I don't know I think that um I that is true by the way Andrew Cogliano got a fracture in his neck after a hit for Jordan Eberley return to

play and then and that was honestly if he doesn't return to play that he probably does get dispensed. So it is like, like you said, it is a little, it is a little sign. Yeah, I think that it shouldn't, it may, I can see how human nature is, it plays a factor and maybe how you're evaluating it. Like if a guy doesn't get hurt and you're like, oh, maybe this should be a two game suspension. Whereas if a guy does get hurt, maybe it's three. I kind of get that a little bit. But in general, I do think a bad hit's a bad hit. Yeah, I mean, I can see how human nature can affect the officials on the ice. If a guy's laid out and unconscious versus a guy who gets up and fights back,

you might be less inclined to give it a major or whatever. But like in the cold light of day when you were dispassionally reviewing it on tape, I'd like to see the hit itself be legislated and not necessarily, you know, if a guy flukishly hit his head on the ice or on the glass or something like that, right? Like either it's a bad hit or it's a bad hit. I originally was going to ask you if the Winnipeg Jets are legit. Of course they're legit. I mean, anyone who watches this team play knows that they're the best goalie in the world,

this side of Igor Shestirkin and Connor Hellebuck. They're 14 and 1. So instead of asking that they're legit, I wanted to ask you this. The Jets tweeted out after their last win, best start in NHL history. And technically that's true. They're 14 and 1. No team has ever won 14 of their first 15 games in the NHL. But my first year on the Blackhawks beat back in 2013, the lockout season,

the Blackhawk started the season 21-0-3. Now, they were, I think, 10-0-3 at one point, and then they won their last 11 straight games. It was a big deal. It was a circus came to town. Every game was like a national game. They were on the cover of Sports Illustrated back when Sports Illustrated existed. And it was like a big deal. It was the team that brought hockey back, all that stuff, yada, yada, yada.

The question is, what's more impressive? 14-1 or 21-0-3? what's the best start in the cap era here. Now, keep in mind, all three of the Blackhawks losses were in shootouts, which isn't actually hot. I, before you even said that, was going to say that I think it's the Blackheart's just because it's more games, number one. It was half the season. Remember, that was a 48 game season, and it was a 24 game start. I was a junior in high school at the time.

I hate you more than anyone I've ever hated in my life. I think that I think it's more games. The fact that overtime hockey, even like overtime hockey, I don't mind the shootout, honestly, and I don't even really mind overtime hockey, even if we all get annoyed at how people like hold the puck too long. But even if they lost in overtime, like three on three hockey is a different sport almost than five on five. Wait, aren't you the guy who thinks the shootout winners should count as a goal? It should. It should. Another horrible Peter Maudeek.

It's ridiculous that on the. box score, there is a number of goals scored, and there is not an equal number of goals scored in the like goal scoring column on the score sheet. I think that's absolutely insane. Teen goals or something then. It should not go to an individual player. Yeah, or maybe it should just go to the guy who scores the winning goal. But regardless. Absurd. Absolutely absurd. The guy who scores the go-ahead goal in the shootout should be credited with a goal. That's just any hockey-knowing person. Any hockey-knowing person?

If you know Puck. Peter Baw, professional hockey-knowing person. If you know Puck, that's a goal. But that wasn't supposed to be our debate. I think that the fact that like at five-on-five, essentially, the Blackhawks were 21 and O with three incompletes, I guess. Like, that's pretty darn impressive. They didn't lose a game.

They didn't lose a game of actual hockey for the, for the first entire half of the season. I still think that's. And it's funny, like, here's the thing. And, you know, the Blackhawks almost lost in the second round to Detroit, who barely made the playoffs that year. They were down 3-1 in the series. It was, they were one period away from losing.

If that happens, 210 and 3 doesn't mean anything to anybody. That's the Patriots being 16 and 0. It means nothing to anybody. So the Jets don't do something with this. It's not going to matter. So I personally, like Winnipeg is, my favorite place in the league to see a hockey game. I love the crowd there. I love the small barn that they've got. I would love to see Winnipeg going around. I know the ESPN and TNT probably

aren't so cool with that, but I think it would be fantastic. But they got to do something with this. 14 and 1 is amazing. It's incredible what they're doing. And I hope that they can turn it into a special season that that that fan base could really, you know, cling on to. It would be really fun. By the way, the Detroit Tigers, I would argue, got off to the best start ever in any sport in history, or at least of the four major sports. They were 35 and 5 through 40 games in 1984 and won the World Series. I don't know if you guys knew this, but Peter Ball would much rather be covering baseball than hockey. That's, I like, I like my job. I just also like random baseball tidbits.

You are the one who introduced me to Immaculate Grid and I forever hate you for destroying my brain that way. All right, that does it for us. Thanks for listening to The Athletic Hockey Show. Please leave us a five-star rating and review if you're enjoying it. The Athletic Hockey Show is back on Wednesday with Sean Gentilly, Sean McIntoo, and Frankie Carrado. I hope you give it a listen.