The Athletic Hockey Show - NHL Draft 2024: Wheeler’s latest on Eiserman, Celebrini, Buium, Iginla, and more

Episode Date: March 29, 2024

On today’s Prospect Series episode of The Athletic Hockey Show, Max is joined by Scott Wheeler to talk about Scott’s recent feature on enigmatic sniper Cole Eiserman, Scott’s latest 2024 NHL Draft ranking, including best fits for Macklin Celebrini, and Scott’s too early ranking of the 2025 NHL Draft class to close things out. Subscribe to The Athletic: http://theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. Hey, everybody. Max Bolman here alongside Scott Wheeler for another episode of the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. Scott and I are going to dig into a few topics today. And we're glad to have you here, Scott, because you had a few things come out recently, new 2024 rankings, a look ahead to 2025. But the thing I want to start with is a feature you had recently on Cole Eisenman, who I think is one of the most interesting players in the 2024 draft class. You dove deep into him and I want kind of your before we before we get into a few points of it kind of your big picture takeaway on why this guy has become so polarizing in this draft class yeah um it there's

a lot to sink your teeth into with Cole I think scouts and teams are learning that uh I think even his teammates and his coaching staff have learned that over the last two years uh he's just a very complex complicated kid and player and I think part of what has turned him into such a polarizing figure at the top of the draft is, A, the natural things of the one-shot score, and those guys just typically by default are viewed as a little one-dimensional, sometimes fairly, sometimes unfairly. In his case, you've also got the added layer of it's real.

Like, it's, there are games where he doesn't involve his linemates all that well. There are games where his effort level isn't quite there off the puck. There's a lot of sort of moments in games where you can see, visible frustration, whether it's bad habits and shooting into shin pads or forcing plays or turning the puck over in bad spots, or it's just him slamming a stick or a water bottle or getting frustrated with his teammates and arguing with his teammates on the bench. Like there's just been a few too many moments like that that have caused scouts to sort of pause with Cole. And as a result, he's also had to answer about it and answer about it over and over and over again. And when I spoke to him a couple of months ago, I was, I entered into the conversation a little leery of, okay, how's this, like, I'm going to try to challenge this kid and how is he going to respond. And I've got to be honest, coming out of it, I was like, he pushed back on me. He said some things that made me sort of raised my eyebrows. But at the same time, I was kind of impressed with him, the way that he stood his ground and his belief in himself and in his game and in his belief that he actually does other things that he doesn't get enough credit for. whether it's finishing checks, which is actually true.

He's actually a pretty physical player when he wants to be blocking shots, that kind of thing. He does view himself that way. And then as I entered into the rest of the story, it was, okay, now I've had this chat with him. What is, when I put the conversation that I had to call to other people, what are they going to say about it? So it became this really sort of interesting back and forth with people of, is this just who he is?

Like, is he just a very combative, confrontational? I didn't even feel like he was arrogant or cocky or anything like that. That wasn't the vibe I got. It was just like, he was very sure of himself and he was very open. And hockey players are famously, obviously, not like that. He could have danced around it. He could have given me one word answers. And he really leaned into the conversation.

And we got into talking about his stick flex and the way that he shoots the puck and all sorts of other stuff as well. But the stuff about sort of his attitude and the way. he's perceived, I thought was really, really enlightening because heading into the combine, like he's just going to have to answer those questions over and over and over again. And I actually think there's some people he'll probably rub the wrong way, but also some people, I think he could exit some of those meetings having sort of impressed some people that there's, there's a certain type of hockey person that will also look at that kid and say, okay,

he's got a little bit of a swagger about him in a good way as well. So just a really, like I just found it fascinating sort of getting to know him and also getting to know how his coaches and his teammates view him and that kind of a thing, that added layer. And because they view him a little bit differently than scouts do, for example. So, yeah, it was, it was really a fun sort of process, which I don't normally say about those types of stories, especially when there's a bit of a negative angle to it. What I like about it is it's the exact kind of questions that NHL teams are going to ask him at the combine, which we're still a couple months out from.

But when he gets there, they're going to ask these questions of him, and they're going to ask these questions of his teammates as you did, right? Like, they're going to, there's going to be so many program kids in Buffalo, and a lot of them are going to answer questions on what was it like to play with Cole Eisenman. So to start with kind of the body language stuff, which I find really interesting here, it's one of those hard things to parse, right? Like to the outside, it's always going to look like one thing. And that's either going to be fire, competitive fire, or it's going to be bad attitude, whatever, right? And this, I think, is going to be one of the first things that teams are trying to figure out with Cole Eisenman because that you kind of use the word, or one of the coaches, I think,

maybe Nick Four might have used the word kind of emotional. Where do you think he kind of falls on that spectrum after talking to all these people? Yeah, four, my conversation with Four was, four is great that way as far as a media perspective too. There's been a lot of coaches that have come through the program and not all of them would have been as candid with me as Nick was. So credit to him for talking pretty openly and also a little bit negatively at times about things that Cole needs to work on and that kind of a thing. But the attitude, his answer on the attitude I thought was really, really interesting. He said, look, it can be viewed as frustration with linemates or it can be viewed as frustration with himself. And Nick has always believed that it's not

outward negativity. He's not creating a toxic environment on the bench. He's not giving it to his teammates. It's really frustrations with him and expectations that he has for himself. He thinks that every time he gets the puck in the offensive zone, he needs to be making a player putting it in the back of the net. And when that doesn't happen, he can get frustrated with himself. So I, and I, in speaking with his strength coach and other people, that that was a theme, like just this super high bar that he has for himself. And not in your tip. I mean, all of these guys have high bars for themselves, but maybe even above and beyond the typical high level hockey player like he's just a very intense kid and truly thinks that every time he's out there,

he's going to go put the puck in the net. So he really was forceful and Nick was really forceful in saying, look, it's it's him being frustrated with himself. If he's slamming a water bottle, it's about him. It's not about his teammates. Now on the flip side, he did say his, him and his teammates have had some difficult conversations this year about passing the puck and using each other better and all of that stuff. But he's hand to him. those really well. And Nick actually joked with me that he thinks he's, he's almost gone, because of the perceptions of him, has almost gone the other direction a little bit too harshly. There have been a lot of conversations where Nick has had to tell Cole to shoot the puck more

and say, look, if you're in the slot and you've got an opportunity to score, take it. Like, don't feel like you have to pass so that the scout in the audience or your teammate feels like you're involving them more. You're out there to score goals. That's your best quality. When you get good looks, you should be taking all of them kind of thing. So it's interesting, where Cole has now, I think maybe there's a little bit of insecurity as well, deep down there where he thinks, people view me this way, I need to show them something else. I need to prove them something else instead of maybe the play is to just lean into who he is. And he does that in some ways and doesn't in other ways.

So again, just the layers to him, I think are going to be fascinating for teams to unravel sort of through U18 worlds here and then obviously into Buffalo for the combine. Well, and that's where the story ends, right? Like you leave off in the story by Cole with a quote from Cole saying, if I try being someone I'm not, it's just not going to benefit the teams that I'm on or the teams that I'm going to be on. And that is kind of the, to me, the crux of the story, right, is first of all, who is this kid?

And does he need to change or do we need to kind of accept that this is, right? Like there's certain things. At the beginning of the story, there's a part you talk about this drill that or this practice that he struggled with. and there was, it was an off puck day, basically, and it was a practice that was not designed for his strengths. That's something that he has to improve. Yeah.

And some of the other stuff is more ambiguous, right? Yeah. And I think you're, the lead into the story, I think, was important because it positions right from the start that Cole is a kid who just has a way about him. He has things that he's good at and things that he's bad at. And he's got a little bit of an attitude within those things about him. himself and about what he needs to work on. There's a quote in there where he tells me that he thought his coaches,

his coaches had told him that his playoff the puck was perfect now. So there's still a little bit of that where I think he gets it in some ways. Maybe he doesn't get it in other ways. But yeah, that ambiguity that you're talking about, it's there in sort of all parts of him. And maybe it's just a maturity thing too. Like one of the things four had to sort of remind me and wanted to remind readers about

it was like, look, this is a 17-year-old kid and he's a summer birthday. Like, he's one of the younger kids in the draft. These are kids. We forget that. Because of how talented they are and what they're going to mean to their NHL organization and all of that. We can lose sight of that at time. So maybe there's just some growing up that needs to do. And he'll get an opportunity to do that at BU.

And under J. Pendolfo and a good coaching staff there at BU as well. So, but definitely I think ambiguous is a sort of good descriptor for Cole and sort of where he's at and what he's all about. It's an excellent story. I highly recommend everybody go read it on the athletic. Three days after it, Scott, after that story, your 2024 NHL draft rankings came out, and Cole Eisenman ranked number four on that list for you. We're going to get into that list in more detail in a second.

But clearly you're buying kind of what he and what Nick Four are kind of selling on the Cole Eisenman experience. Why are you sold on Cole Eisenman as a top five player? I just think there is room for growth there. I do buy into the fact that he actually does have a bit of a B game. I know scouts have often wondered whether he has that B game that you hope for out of a high-end score. Like, can he play physical? Is he competitive enough?

The more I've watched him this year, the more I think that part of his game is actually fine. I've seen him bowl guys over and that kind of a thing. But the question is ultimately going to be, are you comfortable taking a high-end goal-scoring winger who has had questions? about him throughout this season over maybe a slightly lesser center or the defenseman. And ultimately, I think the majority of teams will lean center and D, as they always do in this draft. And we can get into all of those guys as well. But with Cole, I think there's, it's just so hard. It's harder to find him than it is a second line center or a stud top

for defenseman even. I think it's, unless you're confident that one of those D is going to be a true first pairing guy or that one of those centers is going to be sort of a franchise guy as a center. Do you want the first line potential 40 goal scoring winger or do you want the second line center? Like it's just a determination that teams are going to have to make for themselves about whether it's him versus Berkeley Caton or him versus Consta Heleneas or him versus the third or fourth D in the class. That's where I'm at right now is that I think I'd probably still give the slight edge to this kid who just has put the puck in the net at a pretty historic rate over the last two years at the national program. And I fully expect we'll do the same at

BU next year and have an excellent freshman season. Like it's just all he does is score and it's so hard to do and it's so hard to do in the ways he does. He's a lock for the flank on a on a PP1. Those guys are just hard. They're hard. They're really, really hard to find even as a winger. So that's sort of kind of where I've settled on it. Now, if someone were to take Berkeley Caton or Caden Lindstrom or any one of those sort of three, four, five D in this class, I wouldn't shake my head at it. I wouldn't begrudge it, but it's, I do sort of slightly lean Cole at this stage. You talked about kind of bringing your findings, your interview with Cole back to some

NHL people. Like, what was their reaction when you did that? Like, do you think the industry is sold on him as a top five guy? No, the industry is not sold. I had a couple of texts back from people who kind of said, I have no issue with his, the way he carries himself. I have no issue with his attitude. Now, there are also a couple of texts and that kind of thing that I included in the story,

a text from a scout who after Cole had an 18-shot game against Sweden earlier this year, a text from a scout that basically said, I'm off of Cole Eiserman. So here's this kid who's going out there doing insane things, at least from accounting stats perspective, and there are still scouts who find that style extremely frustrating to watch. And I get it. Like, look, I get it. If you're taking 18 shots in a game, there's probably something to be said about your ability to create shots, but also something to be said about shooting it too often, right?

I think he didn't even score against Sweden, too. So there's a lot to unpack there. There's mixed reviews. I've spoken to a couple of scouts who said they wouldn't take him sort of top five, maybe even top 10 kind of thing. And there are others who still believe he belongs in that sort of five, six, seven conversation. All it takes is one team, as we know. he's going to go top 10. I still believe I don't think we're going to talk.

We're going to be talking about him going 12, 13 in the draft kind of thing. I don't think it's completely out of the question. But top five, I think, feels more unlikely than likely. And that wasn't the case heading into this year. I think heading into this year, he was kind of viewed as a top five guy in this class. And part of that is nitpicking with him. And part of it is just other guys who've had really good years. I'm higher on this draft.

I think most scouts are too. I'm higher on this draft now than I was at the start of the year. So guys have joined that conversation. And Cole was already there, but there are other players who closed that gap for sure. When you talk, that just makes me think of Jeff Skinner, right? Like it's like it's, on one hand, he's a 40 goal score. He's got this big time contract. Clearly, there are people willing to bet on him.

On the other hand, you've heard certain coaches to really take him to task and frustrate. Like, is that just kind of, does that seem like the direction that it will be? He'll have his people that appreciate him and people that just won't. Yeah. Even like, you think of Dougie Hamilton in the career Dougie Hamilton's had where there were coaches for a long time that were really frustrated with the way he played the game and sort of just who he was off the rink, bit of an odd guy, a bit of a never really fit into the locker room.

There was always sort of rumors about that with, with Dougie Hamilton. Cole, maybe Cole's just going to be the same. Maybe he's going to be that sort of enigmatic. I mean, look at Roke around the league. We've heard things about J.T. Miller and Phil Kessel. There's all sorts of guys who are great, great players in the league that have had sort of, that are just a little bit different and have found success. being different. So I think Cole might just fit into that group. Like he might just be his own,

his own guy, his own player who needs the right coach and the right team to really believe in him. And that doesn't necessarily mean that he has to be for everybody and he certainly won't be for everybody. So I think where he goes is actually going to become a really fascinating story into the draft here because we know that the teams, that most teams love the D at the top. We know that most teams love Caden Lindstrom, but Cole's one of those kids where it's going to take the right set of circumstances and the right draft order. And I think even the lottery could play a big factor in terms of where he goes just because there may only be two or three teams in that top 10 that are strongly considering him. Awesome. Let's take a quick break right there. We're going to come back

and talk about the rest of your 2024 draft list. All right, we're back with Scott. And Scott, your new list came out for 2024 this week. Not a huge movement, but the one big kind of notable thing that I wanted to get your thoughts on where you've been pretty high on two of the smaller defensemen in this class. Steve, William, same correct. They're both in your top seven in this latest edition. Obviously, that's a bet that NHL teams can sometimes be tepid to make. I think the last time we saw two guys in that profile go in that range, I think we're talking probably 2018 or so. with Quinn Hughes.

And Boquist, I think, went right around there, too. Yeah, nine or ten. Right, exactly. So two of those types in the same top ten is kind of what I'm getting at. What is your confidence level that kind of gets you to that range with these two guys? Well, I think, first of all, you're talking with both closer to Quinn Hughes than you are Adam Bochrist. And when you sort of categorize it that way, you start to think, okay, what kind of impact

can these two players have? Zeeves production is through the roof from a college standpoint. We're talking about a better freshman year than Charlie McAvoy, Zach Wrenski, Owen Power. You go down the list of the top young D who've played NCAA hockey over the course of the last decade and his production slots out right near or at the very top of it. So that's a part of it. I think with Zeev, what has intrigued me over the course of this season is the way that he's defended. I actually think he's a very competent defender.

His footwork is excellent. He's great stick on puck. His reeds and his positioning have come a long way. He plays a very tight gap, which can result in some mistakes. Like he's a very, I always describe him as busy. Zeeves very active offensively. He likes to walk off the line. He likes to take chances.

But he's also very busy defensively. He moves his feet. It's a more sort of, I'm going to go disrupt this play rather than sit back and position myself and let it come to me. In saying that, I think his positioning and his reads and his choices on when he's taken risks defensively to step up on a guy or be disruptive have really come a long way. And it's turned him into the kind of player that can play 25, 30 minutes for one of the top ranked teams in NCAA hockey as a 17, 18 year old, right?

So it's just been impressive to watch. You've obviously had, he was emerged as a top four defenseman for Team USA at the World Juniors as well. he's just checked a lot of boxes this year. I'm not sure he has this sort of real game breaking quality. Like the points sort of suggest that, but you watch him play. His game is all about breaking that past that first layer. Like he makes guys missed.

He's really, really shifty with the puck on his stick, shoulder fakes, sending guys the wrong directions, that kind of a thing. I'm not sure he's a natural finisher or some brilliant playmaker. He's not, he's a very good skater, great on his edges, but he's not a quince. Hughes level skater. So I think that's the measure that teams are sort of trying to figure out is, okay, if he doesn't have that one sort of dynamic quality, whether it's elite skating or a really high-end finishing touch, what is his, is his offense going to translate as

smoothly up levels as it has in college? And what's it going to look like? Like, is he a 40-point defenseman or is he a 60-point defenseman kind of thing? And there's a big difference for teams in terms of a top five to 10 range with that kind of a player, especially if he's not six foot two, six foot three. Now, Zeev has grown. He was five, 10 in his time at the program. He's now sort of six feet, six foot one. He's 180, 190 pounds. He'll play probably in the 190s when he's in the NHL. Like he's, he's not, I wouldn't call him small in the traditional sense. There's a lot of very high end players, his size on, on D in today's

NHL. But the more I watch him, the more comfortable I am with just the fact that he's going to be very good. I'm not sure he's going to be a star, but I think he's going to be like very, very good. Like an excellent second pairing power play guy feels within reach and then some maybe. With Zane, I think you're talking. Vince Dunn kind of. Yeah, like, yeah, I think Vince Dunn's a good example. Vince, I think has a little bit more of a chip on his shoulder.

He's always been a little bit of a harder player than Zeev is. But yeah, that type, that caliber at least. With Zane, I think you're looking. at a special player. Like not just a very high end offensive player. You're looking at one of the most talented defensemen I've watched in 11 years now of sort of doing this on a full-time basis. Like I'm not even sure I can put other.

I mean, Rasmus Dahlian broke a lot of ankles in Sweden when he played at the junior level before he made the jump to the SHL. He was a ton of fun to watch. Quinn Hughes, ton of fun to watch. Zeeve has this way about him in the offensive zone where it just looks easy. Like he makes high-end, high-scale plays look easy. He escapes pressure incredibly well. He never looks like he's in trouble.

Part of it, and a big question with Zane and has been all year, is the way that they play in Sagina. Chris Lazary and that coaching staff allow all of their players to play very loose. Cole Perfetti had to answer the same questions. Pavlmintiukov absolutely had to answer the same questions of, are you too loose? Are you ever going to be able to button it down? And then in Zane's case, he's also not a super competitive kid.

Like he almost never delivers body checks. He's not hard in front of the net. He's not hard in the corners. It's stick on puck, stick on puck, stick on puck. Like that's just who he is. And I actually think he's very disruptive with his stick and has become a pretty good defender at the OHL level. But to lead a team in scoring by 30 plus points as a defenseman and a very good

team, a Memorial Cup hosting team, to nearly hit 100 points to eclipse 30 goals and the way he does it with the skill that he does it with, it's exciting. Like I think you're looking at a kid who could be one of the most talented, productive defenseman in the NHL someday. Now, is he, the big question in terms of top five versus top 10, top 12 is, is he going to be able to get out on the ice and earn enough trust from his coach in order to put up all those points and make all those plays. And we have seen some guys who kind of play a little bit of that offensive tilt struggle to earn that. Like look what's happening with Brant Clark in L.A.

right now. Now, I think he's more talented than Brant Clark. And I think Frank Clark is an incredible talent. But Brantz, it's, it's taking him some time to earn the trust. Like you've got to, even if you have all the talent in the world, you still need to be able to get out there 22, 23 minutes a night in order to be a high end points guy. You can't just play 15 minutes and then play on the power play and be a star in the NHL. So that's what's next for Zane is, okay, can he prove to people that he can be that guy as well, that he can defend at enough of a level that the offense will take over and the offense will turn him into a true star in the league.

And I think ultimately, by my ranking, obviously, I have him fifth. I think that's within reach. And I think the offense will be so good that coaches will want him out there. Like they'll just want him out there in key situations to make something happen. it's it's pretty fun to watch certainly at the junior level and they're going to obviously i mentioned they're hosting the memorial cup so we're going to get to watch a lot more of it here like we're going to get another we might get another 20 games uh out of zane which we're not going to get for the rest of these guys and they're going to be 20 games in high pressure environments so i think this stretch actually

could be the most important of the season for maybe any player in this draft like there's going to be all of these seasons are going to be over and there's going to be a lot of scouts at those Saginaw games to watch him. So it's on him to play hard and to rise to the challenge and to make some big plays and some big moments. And I think he's up for the task, which is exciting. We talked before you came on about kind of the shape of these rankings. And you even mentioned it on the show, right?

The centers in D are going to go early as they always do. And you don't really have any huge outliers in that way in the rankings. I think there has been a group that's kind of separated themselves. So with respect to all of the very highly talented, centers in D here at the top. I'm going to take you a little bit farther down the list to an area we haven't given as much attention to on this show. Kind of in that middle teens, 13 to let's call it 20, is a big cluster of wingers.

And I think one of the questions we get a lot on the show is like how high does my team have to be picking to feel like it's going to get an upper half of the lineup guy? And usually when you're talking about centers in D, that answer is pretty high. But when you're talking about the wingers, there is sometimes a little bit of a mark on what you have to, you know, the kind of pick you need to get a certain level of talent on the wing. And this feels like a range that that applies in. Is 13 to 20? Can I get a top six winger between 13 and 20 here?

Or is it a little thinner than that? No, I think there's absolutely potential for some of those guys. You might not get a first line one, but you might get a 50, 60 point second line winger who is on PP1 or PP2 and is a productive, talented, $5, $6 million player for you someday. I think that's what you're always, you always have to be looking for in that range, right? You're not getting the nine, ten, eleven million dollar player there. But if you can find a guy who can be a five, six million dollar player for you someday, that's a huge win in that range.

And I do think there are those types in this group. Like I think there are people who believe that Tijiginwa, for example, is going to become a top six player. He's listed as a center by NHL Central Scouting now, which I think is interesting because he only played about 10, 15 games there this year and played. predominantly on the wing with that team. But I think he'll probably be a win. My hunch would be that Tidge is a winger at the NHL level.

And if he is, I think absolutely, can Tidge again be a impact top six winger? I think the answer is yes. Then you get into after, I think Tidge is viewed as kind of the premium guy at the front of that tier maybe, Trevor Connolly as well from a skill perspective. And then you get into guys where it's sort of more of a middle six projection, like a Michael Bransig-Neggarde, a Liam Green Tree, players that everybody likes. Like, you won't talk to a scout about Bransigneguard or Green Tree in particular and have them come back to you and say, oh, he's disappointed me this year or whatever, right?

Like, they guys show up to him. They text me, say, I really liked Green Tree tonight. He was a horse. He was a driver. Like, that's kind of the way that those guys are described. Really hardworking players. They can both shoot the puck, physically engaged, competitive. I think Bransagney-Gard's probably viewed as the most competitive player.

in this draft, sort of like Ryan Leonard was a year ago. Brandtigneegar just, he's in the thick of it, even in the Al Spencekin playoffs at the moment, he's been really good, scoring goals at the front of the net, finishing his checks, forcing turnovers. That's his DNA. Green Tree, a little bit the same. Captain at a very young age in the OHL projects his kind of a middle six winger. He's heavy.

He's hard on pucks. He can shoot it. He's got a little bit of skill. Those are the kinds of guys you talk about in that range. And then there's one guy who I think is really interesting who's Beckett Seneca with Oshawa. Beckett is an extremely individually skilled player, sort of more like Gingla and Connolly, in that respect. High, high, high, high end skill.

There are questions about some other stuff around him, but from a pure skill perspective, he might be the guy who's available the latest who has that sort of potential top six upside. Like you talk to people about Beckett and they think he's got talented, and enough talent to be a top six player in the NHL if it all breaks right. He's six foot two, six foot three, puck on a string. It has danced and made some really highlight real sort of skill plays pretty consistently this year. Really a very, very dynamic quality to his game.

And on top of that has size and he's a very skinny kid. So I think there are people who are excited about two, three years from now with 15 more pounds, what does Beckett Seneca look like? You could have a really interesting player. He's a player who might be in that sort of 20 to 25 range, more than the 10 to 15 one kind of thing. So that's probably about as long as you can wait. If you're a team that's a playoff team, that's probably about the latest you're going to be able to get that kind of a quality of player. One more guy I wanted to poke you on in that category is Igor Genishov.

I love the way you described them in the write up, kind of the modern power forward. I think people have a really hard time wrapping their head around like what are they getting offensively with some of these Russian guys, especially when they've played in the KHL for as much as Trinyshov has this year. What do you see as kind of the offensive side of his game and what do you like about him as a player? Yeah, I mean, Churnishab's fascinating, right? Because the classic example now again where teams don't have boots on the ground, teams haven't been in MHL, VHL, KHL ranks this year. And with the exception of a couple of folks. So it's all video and even getting to know him, talking to coaches, learning about him. Some of the Russian agents are less available to teams.

Teams have just had a bit of a tough time really honing in on these guys other than watching them on tape. And on tape, he can catch your eye. So there's been an interesting conversation about Cherneeshav because, again, he's got size. He can skate. He's got some real skill. He's got some secondary skill. He can, like he is a dual threat guy. he can shoot it, he can pass it, he can drive the net, he can play out wide.

Like there's some qualities there to get excited about. There have been questions about sort of consistency, play off the puck, involvement level, that kind of a thing with him. Sometimes that's just a learning thing, though. Like, I do think that can be taught and coached and learned. And I don't think it's a, like, he's not some one-dimensional guy who's cheating up ice and playing hockey that way. Like, it's just a, he needs to be a little bit more consistent that way.

But yeah, that's that's the next factor for sure as well, because is a team going to be able to take him in the teens over some of those other names I mentioned, even if they really like him? Are they going to be able to talk to him ahead of Vegas? That was a big question last year because a lot of the Russian kids weren't invited to the combine and teams were trying to set up meetings with Matt Payne Michikov a day and a half before the draft, right? So I think there's going to be a lot of that. It's going to come down to the wire in terms of decisions on where he's slotted within scouting rooms. And that's just going to be a sort of guessing game on draft date. Like, I don't think he's the kind of guy where come mock draft season, when we start doing our mock drafts. I'm not going to have a good sense.

I don't think of who likes him and who doesn't. There's just going to be a bit of a mystery around Igor. Yeah. All right. Speaking of mock drafts, I'm going to go way out ahead of our skis here. There's obviously going to be a lottery that's going to decide who gets Macklin celebrate. but I wanted to ask you today about the fit on him. And there's obviously everyone can use a player like this,

a number one center, a complete player. They're all going to want him. Where does he make the biggest impact and the fastest impact among the teams that look like they have a chance to him? I guess we have to limit that to basically the top 11 because he's not going, you know, anywhere other than number one, it doesn't sound like. So if I gave you San Jose, Chicago, Anaheim, Columbus, Arizona, Montreal, Ottawa, Seattle, Buffalo, Calgary, Pittsburgh,

which are the bottom 11 teams as we record this. One or two stand out, biggest impact, fastest impact? I think honestly Montreal stands out. They need someone not just to be a Nick Suzuki. Like they need someone who can be better than Nick Suzuki. I think Nick Suzuki's an incredible player. I think he might be on the Canadian Olympic team next year. Nick Suzuki is fabulous.

Is Nick Suzuki as a 70-point guy? going to be a Stanley Cup one seed. I think you look at some of those other teams. Could Anaheim get that out of Leo Carlson, Cutter-Gote, Mason, McTavish, some combination of those guys, they're probably in a better spot. Could Chicago with Bedard?

Of course they're in a better shot spot. Columbus with Fantilli, of course. Those teams have premium guys at that position. Not to say that Nick isn't, but it does feel like they've got everything else coming in Montreal. They've obviously got Lane Hudson, Logan Mayew, and David Reidbacker, three of the better D prospects in the sport are all coming on their back end. They've already got an established young back end.

They've got some very talented wingers. It feels like the missing piece between Montreal being potentially two or three years from now a playoff team and being an actual realistic contender during some kind of window is a 1C, which is easier said than done. I'm sure you've had that same conversation with people in Detroit where they may have everything in the end and is Dylan Markin going to be good enough to be that guy. right like it's so that and it's the hardest thing to find you have to either find it in the draft or you have to spend 12 million dollars in free agency on a john tibera's type right like it's that's really the only way to go about it unless you're houdini or the Vegas golden nights and you can pull a jack ickel out of your hat kind of thing um so yeah they they feel like that and then san Jose i mean san lesee needs a lot of everything they feel like the team that's furthest away for me in terms of these the sort of quote unquote lottery rebuilding types.

I mean, Will Smith is awesome. Will Smith has had an incredible freshman year. All he has done is put up points over the last three seasons really now. I think Will Smith's going to be a top six center and a very, very high-end, talented one. But the idea of Will Smith and Macklin Celebrini suddenly changes the dynamic in a big, big way there for the sharks. So San Jose and Montreal come to mind. Certainly Calgary and Seattle are missing that a little bit. as great as Maddie Baneers and we'll see about Shane Wright.

They don't have that sort of premium guy down the middle in Seattle. Part of that's just their sort of expansion draft process and how hard it is for a team like that to find that player. And then Calgary, I think, is missing that. Like they've got good young players coming. Matt Carnado, Connor Zeri, Samuel Hanzek, their first round pick from last year. But Calgary is going to need a stud and someone that they can keep. Obviously, they've had a tough time keeping high-end players there, and it would help that Celebrini's Canadian and all of that, I think. So, yeah, those, I mean, that's four teams, but it doesn't feel to me like Columbus or Anaheim or Chicago would benefit in the same way that those teams would.

So I was arguing with Sean and Haley on the Thursday show last week about what Chicago would do if they got Celebrini. I think you move Bader to his wing and let him not have to worry so much about the defensive responsibilities that a center had. and let him go full Patrick Kane. But what would you do if Chicago gets celebrating? I think they'd have to consider it. I joked with them a scout from that team. I sent a text to him after Ryan Green scored from Macklin Celebrini last weekend in the Hockey East tournament.

I said, wouldn't it be great to see Macklin Celebrini setting up Ryan Green as a Blackhawk? And he kind of joked with me. The NHL will never let that happen. Really? Because everyone else thinks the NHL will only let that happen. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, yeah, I like the idea of Bedard to the wing with a celebrating. They've got a lot coming at center. It'll be interesting to see which of those guys stick at center and which don't.

Obviously, Frank Nazar is a natural center. Oliver Moore is a natural center. But Frank Nazar, Oliver Moore, and Connor Bedard are all like 510, 511, right? Can you have three centers down the middle who look like that? And I do think Frank Nazar, Frankie will probably end up on the wing. I think he's actually quite suited for the wing. more with the way he plays the engine he plays with. I think he'll be a center. But Bard, yeah, I mean, could he move to the,

could that make a lot of sense and how much fun would that be? I know people would hate it initially, but they would become appointment viewing for the next five. I think it would be great for the league, honestly. So it would be a huge, huge, huge deal. Yeah, I don't know. The lottery night on social media, if it's Chicago is going to be a circus.

So that would also, from an entertainment value, I would enjoy that. Absolutely. All right, let's take another quick break. We're going to come back. We're going to talk about your 2025 way too early list, which I think is always a fun thing to look ahead of year. So take a quick break, right back.

All right, Scott, we're back. At the end of that last segment, I forced you to look into the future with some incomplete information on where Macklin-Cellibruini would best fit. I'm going to take that to another level now. We're going to talk about the 2025 draft class. You got James Hagan's in your number one spot. I think that's been kind of the trend throughout the year.

How firm is that grasp at this point? Do you think as we approach the end of his draft minus one? It feels pretty firm. We're not talking about Connor Bedard, Connor McDavid there. So maybe if you were Bob McKenzie and you were doing a poll of 10 scouts tomorrow like he does for his list, maybe it wouldn't be 10 out of 10, but I think you're probably looking at 9 or 10. Like it's, he's the front runner. He's got, he's on pole position, if you will.

Like it's, it's his race to lose. He's a extremely dynamic high-end skating 5'10, 5 foot 11 center, who's also very competitive and has a nose for the ned and is willing to sort of play the team game. And he's just a really, really good player. And with the skating and the skill level that he has on the puck, especially the skating. It's exciting. So not, again, not not, we're not talking about a badard level talent where you just put him at number one and forget about him for two years. But you're, it's, he's, he's, he's, he's the guy in this group right now.

All right. Let's talk about some of the challengers then because I think we know Hagan's his game, right? He's that he's that uptempo competitive center with a lot of skill, a lot of offense. That's a profile teams are going to like. But there are some, some, some groupings. here after them that I think people are going to want to hear about. Michael Mises is the name we've known for years. Anton Frandell is kind of the hot riser, especially with how he played. Was it the Five Nations that he was at here or four nations? Yeah.

Five nations. Five nations. Yeah. In Plymouth, where do you, you have both of them in the top four. How do you kind of see their trajectories going lately? And what would they have to do to challenge James Higgins? Well, I'll start with Mesa, because Mesa is a name that people are familiar with. he's the eighth player to ever get exceptional status into the OHL.

He had a better 15-year-old season from a production standpoint last year than Shane Wright and Connor McDavid had at the same age. He broke Connor McDavid's OHL Cup scoring record in minor hockey to really earn. Believe it or not, there were actually three players that applied for exceptional status that year. One was William Moore, who's also a top prospect in this draft and ultimately didn't get it and went to the NTP instead. And the other was Rubrowick, the younger Brubourke.

the younger Rube-Browick who's also eligible. So it's a, it's, Mesa's an interesting one because this year he's been very good on a top team. But I think in talking to scouts, he's no longer viewed as kind of the number two, number three guy in this class. He's, he's still viewed as sort of a top five,

top 10 guy by most. But he's, I don't think Michael is viewed as sort of the premium premium star level prospect that you'd expect out of a out of an exceptional status player like he's not in he's no longer in the john toveras i think you're looking more at like a shame right type than you are at a john taveras Connor mac david right like that's kind of the conversation around him at this point um misa is a really really talented skater there's actually some similarities between misa and haggins i don't think misa's quite as competitive as haggins is um and he's now a little bit taller

Misa's actually shot up from 5-11 to 6-1 this year. So he's had a bit of a gross spurt, which my understanding is he's kind of been managing while he's trying to play. And he's actually literally been having growing pains this year and that kind of a thing. But he's still a top player. He's played mostly wing in Saginaw.

But that's almost entirely, according to the coaching staff there, because they've got three of the best centers in the OHL and they feel like Misa makes those guys better when he plays with them and that he should be playing with them kind of thing. So they've shifted him to wing. My understanding is Mesa is going to play exclusively center for Saginaw next year in his draft year and get back to his natural position.

But dynamic skater, like really, really high-end smooth skater a lot like Hagen's is, puck on a string similar to Hagan's. I just don't think he maybe has that fire, that sort of competitive drive. There are times in games where Michael can kind of drift a little bit and be a little bit more of a perimeter playmaker type than a real sort of carry. your line type. But really, really smart,

tactical, talented, excellent skate. Like, he's going to be a very high pick. And then Frondell is interesting. Frondell, as you mentioned,

a couple of really nice international showings, including one playing above his age group, has been a dominant, dominant, dominant player at the J20 level, which for his age is pretty rare.

Like, you have to look back at Alexander Holtz and Lucas Raymond to find guys who were sort of putting together the kind of statistical profile that Frondell's put together. Frondell is also a center, which Holtz and Raymond were not. And I think he's going to start to pop at the pro level next year. Like I do believe with Gergarten that they're prepared to play him and to promote him next year

and to give him not just sort of the fourth line treatment that a lot of these kids get when they go up to the S.HL. or to hockey Al Spenskin, but to really actually, they like him. Like he's a competitive kid. He works hard. He's got skill. He profiles as a cent, like a likable center with a ton of talent as well. So Frondell is an interesting one. Like if he goes up and has a good year in the SHL or just sort of even looks like a good pro,

there's going to be a lot of excitement about a center with his makeup. So those two guys are sort of the names to watch at forward at least once you get beyond, beyond Higgins. All right. Also at Forward are a couple of guys that, based on their type, I have to imagine, are going to have a lot of helium here. And they're having good draft minus one seasons here. In our pre-show, you called them the giraffes. And that would be Porter Martone and Roger McQueen. You got them at number six and number seven. Martone obviously playing Mississauga, McQueen and Brandon. A couple of good old Canadian boys with some good old-fashioned heft to their game. What are scouts excited about here besides the physical business?

makeup. Yeah, I mean, it's everything with those guys starts with the size. They're older players in this draft class, so they've already played two full seasons in the WHL and OHL respectively. But to be a point per game player or above a point per game player, when you're six foot four, six foot five, when you're talking about that kind of a player, and specifically in McQueen's case, when you're talking about a center, Martone's a winger, people, people get excited. Like people in conversations I've had with scouts about Martone and McQueen, there is like a bullish. excitement about what they might look like after another summer of training next year. There's expectations that Martone is going to score 40 or 50 goals in the OHL.

He already scored 30 this year. Martone is a power winger. I've actually had a couple of Mississauga's nearby. They're one of the ranks I frequent the most. I've had a couple of viewings this year in Mississauga where I didn't love Martone. I do think there's been like it could just be a sample size thing where I just caught him on two bad night, two or three bad nights kind of thing. because scouts love him.

Like scouts view him as your prototypical power forward winger who's going to score 30 goals in the NHL, add size to a line, finishes his checks, plays hard, knows for the net, has some secondary skill as a playmaker. Like there's a,

he's a good skater. There's, there's people who are very excited about Martone. And then McQueen's a little bit different. Like McQueen's really even taller than Martone. And he's a little, he looks a little bit more uncoordinated. The skating isn't quite as smoother as power.

He's got more work to do in the gym to fill out his frame and get stronger. But McQueen's a center. And six foot five centers that have skill and our point per game players before their draft year and have played well across levels with different line mates on good teams and bad teams. Like Brandon, if we're being honest, hasn't been a very good team around him. And he just continues to play well. And the interesting thing with McQueen is he's not going to be the net front hip guy. Like, that's not who he is.

He's not the power forward type in the same way that Martone is. McQueen's got, like, I've seen him pull puck's through his feet and back through his legs and the sort of spin passes and finesse, like high saucer passes and finesse play. Like, he's got some real skill and some sort of touch on the puck and some finesse to his game as well. So McQueen and Martone are both going to be players that are very, very sort of below. if you will, heading into next year. And I think you'll start to hear about them a lot. Martone obviously already played for Canada at U-18 Worlds last year.

And like there's there's been a crescendo with Martone of excitement. But I think McQueen's going to sort of be in that conversation as well. Most of the guys that I have in person familiarity with on this list of the program, kids, right? You got Logan Hensler at number two. Yeah. You've got Charlie Treadaway is in the top 10 for you. The defenseman, William Moore is in the top 10.

But one of the names that popped to me as I was scroll on your list was Matthew Schaefer. And it seems to me like there's a profile here that's a little bit ripe for helium here. Really late birthday within this class. He's a September 5th birthday. He's like two weeks from being a draft classed away. Under 17's captain, big minutes player. 6-1 defenseman is not huge. But when I read that.

Yeah. When I read the profile, though, I thought, helium. Who are you? you're if I give you one bullet to throw, who is the guy on your list right now that a year from now we're going to be talking about potentially 10 spots higher than they are right now? Well, I mean, not relative to my list, but Cole Rashne's a kid who I just absolutely love. He's when you talk to scouts, they sort of view him as a late first rounder entering next year. I've obviously got him at 12. He's a 5 foot 9 center, which immediately creates some question

marks. My understanding is that just in talking to a couple people about him is his dad. is sort of on the taller side and he should grow like he's not going to be 5-9 kind of thing. The talent level with Reschney is high, high-end and he's as one scout put it to me, he's a dog as well. He is just a Rottweiler

out there. He just works and works and works. There's a lot of folks who, even if he stays 5-9, 5-10, 5-11, there's a lot of folks who think he's going to be a center and stick as a center because of just that sort of dogged mentality. Really, really good skater. kind of reminds, I mean, he doesn't have the skating that Gavin Brinley or Oliver Moore has,

but those guys have stuck at center. And there were questions about whether those two players would stick at center. And part of the reason that they've been able to is just because of skating and work ethic and getting up and under sticks. And Reschney's a kid who feels like that to me. Like just, and I think he's got more skill at this age than both Oliver Moore and Gavin Brinley had. So I'm excited about Cole. He may still be a late first rounder.

and maybe I'm going to end up pushing him down the list if he doesn't grow and that kind of a thing. But Reschney is a kid that every time, I like internationally with Hockey Canada or in Victoria and the W.HL, he's a kid where I have not had, I haven't seen him have a bad game yet. He's just always looked impressive on the puck and all over the ice and that kind of a thing. So he's probably the one I've most enjoyed watching at the very least so far. highly recommend that list to everybody out there, especially the draft geeks, which if you're listening to this show, I hate to tell you, is probably you. Scott, thanks so much for coming on today. And thank you all for listening to this episode of the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. That's going to do it for us. We'll talk to you soon.