The Athletic Hockey Show - NHL Draft Combine: What did we learn?

Episode Date: June 8, 2026

After last week’s NHL Scouting Combine, where the top draft-eligible prospects do fitness testing and sit for interviews with NHL teams, the guys break down what they learned from the event and if players like Gavin McKenna, Ivar Stenberg, Chase Reid, and Caleb Malhotra hurt or helped their case for draft night. Plus, a deep dive into Corey’s NHL Draft Confidential piece, where scouts and execs give anonymous quotes about the top prospects in the class, potential Dylan Larkin trade packages, and thoughts on a wild Game 3 of the Stanley Cup Final, featuring a Mitch Marner natural hat trick, an improbable Carolina Hurricanes comeback, and ultimately a double overtime Vegas Golden Knights victory to take a 2-1 series lead.Hosts: Max Bultman, Corey Pronman, and Scott WheelerExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Chris FlanneryWatch full episodes on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowJoin our Discord Server: https://discord.gg/VTm9VjkFSubscribe to The Athletic: https://theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. Hey, everybody, Max Boltman here alongside the athletics, Corey Promon and Scott Wheeler for another episode of the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. I know we're not on our usual day this week, but it's for a good reason. The NHL Draft Combine was last week, and Scott and Corey, you guys were both there in Buffalo. Corey, let's start with this. Let's start broad. What did you learn over four or five days in Buffalo? Well, other than I didn't learn this Buffalo, but I learned that Scott looks very dapper.

today. That's right. I got a wedding to get to here. We're recording between the ceremony this morning and the party tonight. But at the combine, I think everyone's main interest is the top couple of picks and mainly how is this draft going to go. And I don't think I can answer that today as we record this on June 7th precisely, but talking to a lot of people there, kind of getting a general sense of how people think it's going to go. I think talking to a lot of scouts, executives, agents, I think most people expect the top four picks in some order to be the two dynamic wingers, Gavin McKenna and Yvars Stenberg, the center, Caleb Malhotra from Brandford, and defensemen chase a reach from the Sioux. Can't guarantee what order those top four are going

to go in, obviously. But that seems to be the emerging consensus, as those are the four. players. So who's going to take who? I think Toronto likes all four of those players and has done a lot of homework on all four of those players. I think, though, almost everybody I talked to in Buffalo believes they will take McKenna with the first pick. Then we get to San Josea too. Who are they going to take? Will they take Stenberg? Will they take a defenseman? I think most people do expect them to take a defenseman. I think most expect that defenseman to be. Reed, I don't think that's settled. I think they're doing a lot of work on Carson

Carl's. I think they're doing a lot of work on Keaton Verhoff. And on Stenberg, I don't think that's settled, but I think most expect, just like we did in that scout, an exact Mockt B, 1, 2, McKenna, then Reed. Does feel like Mahatutut of Vancouver is a thing. I don't know if that's a done deal, but I feel

like it's moving in that direction. and then I think Chicago would take whichever of those four players are left. Even the D. I think, yeah, I think in the eyes of a lot of teams, Chase re-separated himself a little bit from the rest of those D. And I think they would probably still do that because he's the clear best player available at four. Then we get past four. I feel like we've, that's been kind of the chalk four that has emerged.

In a lot of our conversations, I feel like every mock draft I see has some variation of those four players going in the top four. So I think a lot of people are wondering, okay, what about the Rangers? What about Calgary? What about Winnipeg and Seattle and Florida? I think then six to ten, again, variation of this, I think we're probably going to see a run of defenseman. I think you're going to see Carson Carls, Albert Smith, Keaton-Verhoff, Malte Augustine, kind of go very quickly in that second half. half of the lottery range. It does feel like Vigo Bjork, the center from Eurgaarded, has worked his way into that

conversation too. I think he's made himself, I think he's in the conversation with a lot of those teams picking in that 612 range right now. It does feel like of that next group of defensemen after Reed, it does feel like Carls has the most love in the league right now. So if I was handicapping, who's the most likely to go? go first, i.e. to the Rangers, I think it would be Carl's, but I feel like there's still a lot of conversations to be had, and the fact that Carl's had to skip testing, I believe it was due to

some lingering concussion symptoms. I think that stuff that people are going to look into, I don't believe it's, believe it to be that serious, but it's that these are all just kind of minor conversations happening in the coming days towards the draft. I don't think from everything I heard this week, like I don't think Carls gets past five, six. And I think there's is a chance that he goes two or four. Like I think San Jose and Chicago are both strongly considering Carson. All right. Lots to unpack there here. The thing that stood out to me most, Corey, was you saying, you know, it's this group of four and the only defenseman in that, obviously being Reed. I feel like we've talked about it as a cluster. I know you've had Reed ranked as your top player.

You mentioned some separation, though. Where do you think that separation is coming from with Chase Reed from this cluster of defenseman, who we've kind of talked about intertwined all cycle? I feel like with Reed, you look at him and he has no clear issue in his game and he checks every box. I feel like with Verroff and Smith, some teams are going to have questions on the offense. I feel like with Rudolph, if you're going to have questions on how competitive he is and how good a defender he is. I think that with Guseson, I think you're going to have some minor questions on the offense there. Carl's as well. I don't think is a premier puck mover despite his great production in this season. But at least the offense is good enough that I think he's emerged into

the conversation with Reed. But I think with Reed you get a guy who's being measured at the combine as six two and a half, great skater, great puck mover, great all-around player. I mean, you know, he looks like the kind of defenseman that goes one, two, three. Like that's, that's the kind of prospect he is. I'll say too. was one of the, and we can get to some of the interviews and guys who stood out, Reed worked the room this week. Like he was someone I heard from multiple teams was very, very impressive in the interview process. So let's go to that.

I mean, that's a big part of what this kind of week is, the four or five days. Teams aren't really using this to assess prospects on their athleticism so much as they want to get to know them and they want to see how guys react. We see all the silly exercises and questions teams ask leak out, Scott. But who do you think kind of helped themselves? and did anyone hurt themselves in that process this week? I got mixed reports. When I started asking that question around to a handful of scouts,

who I know sort of interviewed the top guys in the top range, the one guy that I got mixed reports back on in terms of the interview process was Smiths. He's a pretty unique kid. We've spoken to him over the course of this year, dating back to the world juniors. He's got a bit of, I don't want to say, arrogance to him. But there's a bit of a sort of cockiness

to him, if you will. And I heard from multiple teams that he did not do as well in interviews as Carl's did, as Reed did, as those other D did. All of those kids are very, very impressive. And I think Smith isn't for everybody. Like, he's going to rub some people

the wrong way. So he was one of the guys amongst, there were others that I heard sort of struggled in interviews. Samuel Al-Laari was a guy who, there are people who have sort of pretty significant concerns about his fitness level and his weight. And there were others that sort of didn't do well. But Smiths was a guy who I had a couple of people text me, like, I don't know if I like

this kid kind of thing. I feel like I have definitely found when guys have elite compete, they tend to be the kind of high character players that people gravitate towards. And thus, it doesn't really surprise me that both Carson Carls and Vigo Bjork, I heard, interviewed very well with teams. I think, you know, I think Bjork in particular, I think there was a lot of interest in him. And I think he's another guy.

There was a lot of positive things coming out about him throughout the interview process after a very strong end to the season. On the other front, I think Tyne and Lawrence got challenged pretty significantly on how his season went, on his decision to leave junior and go to college and how poorly it went. I think there was some difficult interviews, was my understanding. That doesn't mean I don't think that he's not sliding, but I think, you know, he had to deal with some adversity this season. And I think there were some, you know, hard questions asked of him about his decision-making process and ultimately why he struggled so much at the college level. And you want to mean, when we talk about some of these interviews, the direct tie Scott is about rising and falling.

Like who are the guys who you think, whether it's based on the interviews or whether it's only just kind of coming out via the combine of guys who are going to go a little higher than maybe we've talked about them, guys who are going to go a little bit lower than we've talked about them. Less on the combine, but Maxime Sokolowski, the six foot seven, nearly 240 pounds was his listing defenseman with the London Knights was. a hot topic for just about every team at the combine and a real focal point for a lot of teams. I think Sokolovsky goes first round. And that's saying a lot for a kid who just played his first year of high level hockey in the OHL, who struggled, especially in the first half of this season in the OHL, but who has a very unique package in that you see him, we saw him around the hotel a few times. Like he is, like he's a mutant.

Like he is an impressive, impressive sort of physical specimen. and on top of that he can skate and he came along really quickly and he finished really strong. I think that was important. Corey and I had some conversations with people at U18 Worlds as well. So this is a conversation that has been happening for a little while here. But I think Sokolowski's going to go like early 20s here and be that sort of rising D. So he was one that sort of is on everybody's mind. There were two who I think two wingers that we've talked about over the course of the season to varying degrees who I think were kind of on the bubble of the first round,

sort of day two, early day two guys that did really well in testing that caught my eye. Nicholas Aaron Olson, the Norwegian winger and Mathis Preston of the Vancouver Giants, both did really, really, really well in testing. Not that that can move the needle in any significant way, but I do think if you were a team that was comfortable taking one of those kids in the first round, you're probably a little bit more comfortable taking a Preston or an Aaron Molson in the first round coming out of it just because of, of how athletic they looked

in sort of the quick twitch, the agility stuff, the vertical jump, all of that stuff. Like these kids are natural, natural, impressive athletes. Not everyone did all the testing.

I mean, Carson Carles, I don't think, participated in the testing. Marcus Ruck, I think, had to, he was injured during it

or had to tweak something during it. Yeah. And anytime you hear the word back, I think you get a little bit worried after what we've seen with the combine over the last few years. Liam said that Marcus had been dealing with a back injury prior and then in the horizontal jump tweak something. We saw him coming off and when he was walking through, like he actually looked like he was visibly uncomfortable and in pain after it happened.

That is not a good sign for a kid who needs to spend this summer in the gym. Like I do think that really matters. It's been a huge talking point with them, how little muscle those two guys have and how important it was going to be for them to get an uninterrupted summer in the gym. get stronger and now that may be in a little bit of jeopardy here for Marcus. Obviously, Liam's fine. But there's a little bit of that happening. Like, Belchez didn't participate in a couple of the tests, the heavy weightlifting test because of his clavicle. It sounds like he's getting close, but he didn't participate in some of the testing. Zavier Villeneuve absolutely crushed the testing that he did participate in, but didn't participate in a couple of

the events because of his hips, which have been bothering him all year. So there's some guys who have some injury issues here heading into the draft that teams are going to be factoring into their decision making. There's also, Corey, I mean, when I've been there with you in the past, I know you spend a lot of time right at that first station, double checking things. It's a good place to watch from. That's where everyone weighs in and measures. Sometimes these measurements, these final measurements, can, you know, that half inch, make fun of it or not, it can matter to teams. Yeah, a couple that caught my eye, multi-guss of sin coming at a six, four and a half. that's a guy

I think we thought in the year he was closer to 6.4 and now he's 6.5. You know, can he get to 6.5? I think that's something when you look at the way he skates too. Like, I think that's really intriguing for teams.

Picking high in the draft. You know, White Cullen's official measurement comes in at 6-1. That's a guy who forgot the exact measurement he came into the program, but I think he was measured at 5-8. 5-5. Yeah.

You know, so him his official measurement coming in a 6-1, very notable. there's a couple of guys who we never got official measurements for all season. Usually these are guys who are playing pro hockey who don't have. So NHL Central Scouting will do these measurements at major international events like the U18s and the HALNKah at their showcase events like the OHL Top Prospects game or the CHL NTPs game. So we were waiting for official measurements on Gavin McKenna, on Evar Stenberg, on Vigel Bjork. We didn't get one for Stenberg, at least not yet to my knowledge, because he didn't talk

testing because he was sick. McKenna came in at 511 in a quarter. Vigo Bjork, 59 on the dot. So there was no major variations there from what we kind of expected. Ilya Morozov, 6.3 in a quarter to, which I think is what we kind of expected beforehand too. No major changes there. Probably one guy who kind of came down a little bit, which may hurt his draft stock,

is Tommy Blyle, who we thought was when he was, Last measured by Central was at 511 and three quarters. His official measurement here is 511 and a quarter, so that 6-0 moves to 511. It thought the end of the world. Very was also visibly disappointed when he came in at 510.75. So, you know, these are things that I think can be of secondary importance. You're talking about late first versus earlier mid-second kind of think. Yeah.

Plont and Valentini, both importantly going from 59 to 510. if I recall correctly. They're like mid-rout picks, though. Yeah. It matters, though. I mean, it matters for all these guys. And I, you know, people can joke about, you know, Chris had the line put away the tape measure, you know, a couple years ago.

But these things can matter. And, you know, Bjork was, I think, the one that I was the most curious to see. Could it be five, nine and a half and you could call them five, ten? Ultimately, to your point, Corey, like, for the guys who are really this good, they're going to go really high. But they're little details that matter. Scott, one other thing I'm, I want to talk about is becoming more and more of a part of the combine beat, and that is figuring

out where some of these guys are going to play next season. The big news out of the week was Daxon Rudolph and his college commitment to Denver, but what else did you learn this week about the college commitments, any other player movement considerations that could come for next season? Yeah, I had a list of like 10 guys I wanted to pull at some point over the course of the week, whether it was at the hotel or on testing day just to get them one-on-one and get a concrete answer on some of their decision making for next year. The Rucks have made the decision after touring between the end of Medicine Hat season and the Combine after touring some colleges, the Rucks have made the decision to return to Medicine Hat. Mathis Preston also briefly

considered college, but is going to return to the WHL. The week started with Daxon Rudolph, sort of confirming his commitment to the University of Denver. I grabbed Seamus Ignativisius, because I was curious on his status in the NL. Ignatavisius is obviously a pretty unique story. out of Lithuania, potential sort of more likely early day two guy, but wouldn't shock me if he was a late first. He still has one more year on his NL contract, but he sort of made it clear to me that he that he has an option, that he has an out in that contract and that he's going to discuss with whichever team drafts and whether he should come to North America.

I asked Marcus Nordmark the same thing. He's obviously an import pick of the London Knights. Nordmark has told me he has two years left on his contract with Gergarten, but that he has told Gergard and was telling teams in the interview process this week that if he's not in a top nine role on the SHL team, that he will likely try to work something out with them so that he can go play in London at some point next year. He is going to start the year in Jurgard. Novotny would seem cagey on it, but I got the sense from Adam Novotny that going back to Peterborough isn't in the plans. And then the last big one was Blyle, who I know MSU tried to get in

for next year and have left a spot open for hoping that he would come. There were some teams when we talked about the interviews. I probably should have mentioned him. There were some teams I heard that were pretty critical of Tommy's decision to go back. And he held strong. He wants to go back to Moncton next year. They came up short of winning a QMJL title. I think he probably feels that with Chase Reed coming into MSU that he doesn't have

the opportunity that he was looking for. So Blyle, against some of the advice of some NHL clubs who would have liked to see him take the step and play college. hockey next year, Blyle seems pretty firm on going back to Moncton. So that's going to become an increasing story with a lot of these kids. They've got big, big decisions to make here. Not one of the players that's eligible this year, but just talking to people around hockey, it does feel like Latin DuPont's commitment is down to Michigan.

It will be down to Michigan or Michigan State likely, and I think most people are betting on Michigan being the one who will be able to put together the most attractive offer for him in terms of NIL money, ice time, etc. I think it's going to be Michigan. All right, so that's the combine. Were you guys able to catch any of the Stanley Cup final Saturday night? I know you were traveling back, obviously, but it was quite the game if you were able to see any of it, Corey.

I was actually at the airport for the duration of it between some delayed flights. I arrived at home and pulled up my phone and Martner had just scored the hat trick, and then I went and tuck the kids into bed and gave him a kiss good night. And I came back and they'd scored three of the four goals to sort of mount the comeback. So I really started watching at four, three and finished it out from there. Yeah, well, if you went up to tuck the kids to bed, those three goals could have all been scored in the time just getting them up the stairs. It was a ridiculously fast flurry for a comeback to the Carolina hurricane. It's been amazing. Yeah, I'm really impressed by the level of talent on both teams. Like I know there's

I mean, some of those goals were lucky, and some of them were high-skill plays, the challenge goals and whatnot, but just watching the games, just really impressed by the level of tenacity on both of those teams, the level of the pace, the skill. Like, these are,

I know Vegas didn't have the best regular season, but their underlying numbers were strong, and I feel like when they have their whole group on the ice, like these are two elite, elite teams, deep teams, teams with high-end talent, And it's, you know, I think this is, you know, a very deserving Stanley Cup final and seeing, you know, some of the best hockey players in the world going at it. One question for you guys, because I don't vote on the awards. I know you do. Why does Jordan Stahl knock out more love when it comes to the major awards? Because just watching him in these playoffs, like he, I know his offensive numbers are not great. But man, like he's, every time I've watched him in these playoffs, he's a difference maker.

Like he's one of their best players. And it feels like he deserves to be in these sulky conversations. And I know he doesn't have the points, but like he's just been awesome. Scott, why don't you go ahead first? I'm trying to pull up some of my old ballots, see if I've got any Jordan Stahl on there. He's been on my ballot over the years. He was not in my top five this year. But he was among the eight or nine guys that I considered for my ballot this year and has been on my ballot before.

I think part of the problem he faces is that, Despite it being a defensive award, I think a lot of people weigh fairly or unfairly, weigh sort of the ability to do it at both ends. And so you get the premium offensive guys who also check. You get the Suzuki's and the Kopitars over the years and Bergeron and Datsuk and those guys who were also like that 70-point player that stall has just never risen to. Yeah, it looks like I had him third in 2024 and second in 2023, Corey. So I think I'm on the same page with you there.

But I do agree. I think as he's gotten older into his career, maybe it's gotten a little easier to overlook him. I also think the Carolina system. We talked about this last year with some of the Edmonton guys, and it can be hard to know what to do with the Bouchards and the Nugent Hopkins because you know the structure that they're kind of operating within. And I think Carolina's guys can fair or unfair fall victim to that

because we know it's such a good defensive overall picture there. I think it's the same challenge that Sam Reinhart face is playing with Barkov, too. Like, people are just reluctant to give Sam Reinhart more credit. I guess. I just feel like they're the best possession team in the league. He gets all the tough matchups. He's on their, one of their, he's on the top power play unit right now, too. Like, there's just, like, like I said, I'm not a Carolina expert.

I don't have a deep dives on Tor and stall in a very long time. But just watching with these playoffs, like, to me, he's been one of the five to 10 most impactful players consistently throughout this entire postseason. I agree with you. Like I said, he's been in my top three, two of the last four years. So he's a force, and there's a ton of the best defensive forwards in the world in this series. And I think there's a lesson in that as well, right?

I mean, Mark Stone is in this series. Jack Eichle is in this series. Jordan Stahl is in this series. Mitch Marner is in this series. And Mitch Marner is not just doing it with the defensive end. I mean, all the production that everyone always wanted in Toronto, it's coming out all at once, like a fire hydrant Scott right now. Yeah, honestly.

And one of my big takeaways from the series, and Corey kind of alluded to it, with the talk of the skill plays off the top. But this series, for all the talk of playoff hockey and the way the game changes, this series has not been really played in the mud. Like it hasn't been that violent, bitter. It's been physical, but it hasn't been that sort of violent, bitter hockey. Like, they're out there making plays. They're relentless.

But I wouldn't call this sort of the typical series that we see at the end. And that speaks to the lead changes and some of the skill plays that we've seen made. But these teams are, their roster, are built four lines deep. Like there are guys, look at what Brett Howden's done. Look at what that sort of Stankoven line has done. There are players up and down,

Dorofev, like there are players up and down these lineups who can make skill plays. It's not just the stars anymore that have to carry that load while everybody else mucks it up. I mean, also one thing is just Brady McNabb, like, like, Warrior.

Standing ovation for what he did last night, like, unbelievable. And for him to have a key play on one of the Marner goals, too, you're never going to expect Braden McNab to be making a big offensive play in the game. But if there was ever a moment for it to come out, that's a pretty darn good one. I know talking to people at the combine, they connected the dots from McNapt and multi-guust us in. If you wanted to just insert some draft talk into this conversation. Are you taking McNabb top 10, though?

I mean, he's a great player. He's two wins away from two Stanley Cups. That's fair. That's fair. Not the only guy in the blue line. I get your point, though. And I think Gustafson has a higher ceiling than Bray McNabb, personally. But it is a good tie-in. Let's put a pin in that right there. Take a quick break. We're going to come back. We're going to talk about Corey, an article that you had come out, the Scout Confidential, which I think dovetails really nicely with all this Combined stuff. Be right back. All right, we are back.

And Corey, every year you put out one of my favorite articles to read in draft season, the scout confidential, scout and exec confidential, with a lot of anonymous quotes from decision makers in the hockey world. And I think let's start at the very top with Gavin McKenna, because some of these quotes I think are very interesting. You know, one of the quotes here that I found interesting from a scout, when things get tough, if that's the guy you're leaning on in the playoffs, our guys would be so excited to play against him.

I would take Stenberg, Reed, and Malholtra ahead of him. but you contrast that with other quotes, right? And this other scouting director says, I get the concerns, but there is a realistic chance he's Patrick Kane or Nikita Kuturov. His brain and hands are that special. It is hard to kind of square those two things. And yet that is the picture when you talk about Gavin McKenna. Right.

I feel like the debate with him has always been, never been that the skill or the hockey sense has been debated, that the special offensive talent has been debated. I'll put it, you know, as how one guy told me at the combine. It comes down to really the player evaluation and the exact level of player you think you're getting. You know, there's levels of ratings between Marner, Panarin, Kane, and Kutcherov, you know, or something below that. And that's really, like, me, that's something closer like Lucas Raymond or something like that. Like, that's really the debate.

And figuring out exactly what you're getting and what the realistic outcome for him is really defines the debate of one and the debate around McKenna and ultimately what Toronto or anyone else decides to do with him. Ironically enough, Lucas Raymond is the comp that Evar Stenberg now uses for himself after he was using Tim Stutzler earlier in the year.

So if we're talking about a floor for Gavin McKenna, of Ivar Stenberg or of Lucas Raymond and that's the player that Evar Stenberg is using for himself, then I think you can potentially still come to the conclusion that Gavin McKenna is the better prospect. Well, your word the floor is Alexei Lefrenier, more than

anything else kind of thing, but I get what you're saying. Yeah, I don't view that as the floor, but... Is there not like some overlap, though, the same age? Like, you look at the dominance that Lefrenier had, the world juniors at his age, dominance, you really didn't play college, obviously. I think McKenna's ahead at the same age, but I think you can look back in late birth dates,

the, like, the Nottieh, super athletic profile. And, like, you could connect the dots there a little bit. McKenna was, what, 15, 20 points more productive last year than Stenberg was at the same age in a lesser junior league? I'm not talking about Rain, I'm not talking about Stenberg, though. Or Lafranier. Yeah, yeah, I think he's ahead, but it doesn't, like, I think you can suggest that they're reasonably closed the same age.

Yeah, I don't see. The sense would be a different level, right? I mean, you might actually like Leffernier's compete more. Yeah, Leffernier was bigger and heavier. I feel like there's some revisionist history going on here. I think we can go back to what we said about Leffronier. Then the word game breaker, elite stick skill, elite offensive creativity. Like, that was the scanner report on Leffronier coming out of junior.

It's hard to go back to Carsonier. described him that way. But I thought too, though, like you guys mentioned Stenberg and there was a scout quote here on Stenberg that I think was interesting. People talk about this guy like he's a slam dunk to go one or two. It reminds me of William Eklund's hype. He was in everyone's top five. Then he goes seven when teams get to meetings and they describe a smaller winger who isn't

dynamic to their GMs. He will start moving down lists. Now, I think we would all put Yvars Stenberg above William Eklund. But that characterization, Corey, I think is why, you know, when we talk about this, we've talked a lot about Evar Stenberg being available at four to the Chicago Blackhawks. And there's been a lot of pushback that's like, no, this guy's going to go too. Why would San Jose pass on him? Why would Vancouver pass on him?

That's the answer to the question, even if it is about size and positionality a little bit. Yeah, I think what teams are debating McKenna, I feel like everybody can rationalize, even if they don't all agree or they don't love the player type, they can see a path for him to be like a hundred point score, to be a leading score. in the league to be a dominant offensive player. I think with Stenberg, there is some real fears here your drafting like a 60 to 80 point guy. And not that, that's not still a really good player, especially with how competitive he is.

But if you have the bullet a 1-1, is that really what you want? If you have it at 1-2, you want a 5-11 70-point winger, would you rather get like a big-minute's defenseman or a big-minute center? Now, the people who love Stenberg might say he can be 80 to 85 while providing, you know, tilt in the ice, being a playoff type caliber player. But I think that's the debate on him right now.

It's like, given he is not that mechanic dynamo with the puck, and he's not super athletic, he's not huge, he's not a blazer. Like, it's, you're really just betting that this, this compete level in his game is just so good that he's going to, you know, become the first or second best play. player in the draft. I think that's, for some people, it's a big bet. I am a little surprised when we constantly hear Stenberg discussed as if he's small. Like, he's 185 pounds and 5-11 at 18 years old. There are tons of players playing in the

180s in the NHL that are stars on their team. There are players playing in the 170s in the NHL that are stars on their team. Like, I do not, and the way he plays, the way he gets up and under sticks, I do not view Stenberg. There are other things. I think you could look to in terms of pure upside, but I do not view his size as at all an issue, nor the way he plays. Is it fair to say, though, like, there's a difference in talking about being one of the stars on your team and picking someone one or, like, if you're picking someone one or two, you expect them to be your best player within a number of years?

Period. Like, not one of your best players, your best player. And I think if you're, if Stenberg's, you know, 70 or 80 point winger, that's still among, it probably is one of your best players. The question is, can you build a championship team around that? Like, I think that's the debate. Would you rather pick a 22 minute night defenseman who's at the 40 to 50 point range, but plays penalty kill, power play, heavy, even strength,

like, or a center like Malhotra, who probably project to be that 18, 19 minute and night centerman, power play, penalty kill, I think that's where the stress points really come in. We're currently watching a team in the Stanley Cup finals in Carolina that is built around a bunch of 60 to 80 point players. And a bunch of 40 point really good two-way defensemen, right? So it's which one is driving that bus?

I think that's the question teams are going to keep coming back to. Yeah, I would probably say that I know they haven't been their best players in the playoffs, but I mean, Aho, Jarvis, Slavin. Miller, to me, are their best players. And there's a little bit of both flavors here. So if you're a team, which do you give the credit to? Are you giving it more to the Slavans and the Millers? Are you giving it more to the Ahos-Tankovan Jarvis types?

We didn't talk about this when we were doing the Jordan Stahl thing earlier, but Kiannui-Miller, man. Yep. He's got to be standing. Like, he's probably doing what Seth Jones did for himself last spring, where I know we're not in an international cycle. now, but I feel like if there was a international tournament coming up in six months, he'd be in the team of USA conversation right now.

Yeah. Okay, let's go to the D on this class, Corey. And opinions are kind of all over the place. We could probably do this with each individual player. I want to focus on a guy that I don't even think we've really talked about enough, and that's Albert Smith's, just to give people a sense for the range here. And Corey, I'm sorry that I'm reading so many of these quotes. I do want everyone to go read this article.

I promise you, I'm getting to less than 10% of the stuff that's in here. There's one executive saying, I think McKenna goes one in the conversation for Smith starts at two, so that high up. Another scout. I have Smiths at one, reminds me a more at cider. But then there's the detractors, right? There's scouting directors, questioning the hockey IQ, kind of throwing Sam Dickinson around, which is a good player, but more toward the back of the top 10. An executive, I don't see the hype with Smiths. He's a good player, but he's vanilla with the puck.

This is how you get these kind of dramatic results on draft day, Corey, is that you have some teams that have reservations and, you know, maybe are pegging a guy around eight or nine, and maybe that's where the public sees him. But if you have one team that believes this guy's more at sighter, and that team picks him in the right spot, it can be a very different result when the time comes. Yeah. And only so much I can say on that front. But this is a draft. And I kind of hinted at the top of the article talking to people that say they see this as a group. There's not big drop-offs. There's a group of seven players for some, a group of nine players for some that are all really close.

If the lot, this was kind of similar to how the 23 draft would have gone minus celebrini. And if the draft order had been slightly different, I think we would have seen significantly different results in how that two to eight would have gone in 23. And in this year's draft, if the draft order had been slightly different, I think we'd be talking about different names in the top four, in the top two, in the top five, based on people's preferences. You know, I'm not hearing Smiths as much with the teams with the high picks currently,

but if the draft order had gone differently, there's a chance. We'd be hearing his name more. We've been hearing Verhoff's name more. You're hearing Daxon Rudolph's name more. That is kind of how some people in the league view this crop of defensemen. There is very much significantly different preferences. One other guy I wanted to ask you about from this, and you alluded to him in segment one, is Tyne and Lawrence. And for a guy who we at one point were talking about at the very upper part of this class,

what do you think the odds are that Tyne and Lawrence goes top 10 this year? 50-50, I would guess, in that the strong play of Vigo Bjork and the year in the S.H.L. And at the World Championships, I think will appeal to those who are really, really eyeing a center high in the draft, as teams tend to eye centers and defensemen primarily. I think he's worked as went to that top group that I feel like people can feel more comfortable with a center like him high. Still pretty, very, you know, very reasonable that three centers go in the top 10,

and then Lawrence would be in that conversation. But I feel like the way he ended his year, he actually was quite good towards the end of the year of college. But his last two games, his last two games were excellent. Yeah, he was their BU's best player by a significant margin, I thought. But then his U-18s was fine, not great, I think probably puts him more like 10 to 15, I think, if I was doing a mock draft today. Yeah, coincidentally, you said 10 max, and I wonder specifically at about 11 with St. Louis. Well, it's interesting.

He's another guy where you look at these quotes, Corey, and you can. really see guys who really feel like, oh, you're overthinking this. Don't throw away everything from the early part of the season from his underage year just because of what happened in a couple months span in college. But then you have other people who I think are just pointing out, you know, some of these flaws and the vision, does he see it well enough? Is he making enough happen? Well, yeah, and I got, I've seen the chirps. I've got the trips. I'm like, I'm text and I'm sure fans have chirped me. Like, you had this guy, you know, really high at one point house, he'll always 16. Like, did that much change? And I'm like, well, you know, people don't

realize this, but that happens with other players, too. Like, you know, Rubrik, I had five, top five of what pointies, like in the 80s and the 90s. You know, there's plenty of other players this year that I've dropped significantly, a raise significantly that we're on the rent. We don't talk about Melhotra, you know, six to nine months ago. Even if the information is in 50 games worth of new information, we don't usually get that much sometimes. So you do what you can with the information you get.

And it wasn't just a handful of college games. It was, you know, he played pretty much every game for BU in the second half. And he played U18s, and he played Holinka, all of which, you know, didn't leave a great taste in my mouth. And so I think that's, you got to assess the whole body of work. A lot of good stuff in that one. It would highly encourage everyone to go read Corey's 2026 NHL Draft Confidential. Let's take a quick break right there. You're right back.

All right, we are back. And I'm going to spend the last few minutes of the show today talking about some NHL news. who's not typically mainly our wheel hustle that we did talk Cup final a little bit earlier. But I want to talk about Dylan Larkin because I think it dovetails a lot with some of these prospect conversations now. Yeah, and Max, you and I had a piece go up today

talking about what a potential trade packages can look like for Larkin. It's always tough to construct these because there's never a perfect column, but we looked at past, you know, highly thought of centers that were trading in recent years, Ryan O'Reilly, Jack Eichol, to get some inspiration for what packages could look like.

Before we get to that, just to start, you know, if you had to handicap a percentage that Dylan Larkins, Detroit Red Wing on September 16th, what would you put the percentage at right now? I would say like less than 20%, but it's not zero. And I think people are taking it like it's zero. I'm not saying that it is, you know, exactly 20, but I'm just, I'm trying to ballpark here. Like, it's a non-zero chance. And I think the way I've put it in a story is I would imagine that's inversely proportional to the size of the list that he gets.

gives the Red Wings to work from. Pierre LeBron has reported that right now it's a short list. I don't know. I mean, there's a lot of wiggle room within that, right? Like there's, I think there's a big difference between Dylan Larkin saying, hey, there's four teams I'd go to.

There's six teams, eight teams, whatever. Really, I think it makes a huge difference because if you only have a small cluster at teams, and if we assume based on the Red Wing state, right, they've been losing, they haven't been in the playoffs in 10 years. I imagine if Dylan Larkin wants to be traded, he wants to be traded to somewhere that's going to win. And the problem is, like, those are not the. teams that typically have the assets that, you know, can, I mean, could you match the bar of an O'Reilly

trade? You could probably squeak to it, but it's not going to be the one that, like, knocks the Red Wing socks off, you know, and I think that's when you have five years on your deal, the Red Wings are going to have an incentive to make sure they get something that they like here. And I think the more that opens up, if you could get Utah, if you could get Anaheim into that conversation, all of a sudden, I think there's teams with assets. But if you're talking about Vegas, Dallas, Colorado, these teams that have already depleted their farm systems chasing it, it gets trickier. Yeah, so let's get to the packages we kind of put together. And I'll start with Minnesota, because Minnesota has been an often talked about team, a team desperate for a premier center.

We had, I think, difficulty trying to construct a package that would make sense for both sides for two reasons. One is that Minnesota just made a similar type of trade for Quinn Hughes, moving several premium young players in that deal. And arguably their best young asset is a goaltender in Yesper Walsdette. And Detroit's dealing with their own goalie situation there where they're trying to figure out what to do with this whole Trey Augustine and Sebastian COSA dynamic at the moment. It's tricky.

And that's like what I think of that one, it's like you've got to get the best asset you can. So yeah, you have John Gibson, you have COSA, Postava, Augustine. But if the best asset that you can get for Dylan Larkin turns out to be a goalie, you take the goalie and you figure out what other wheeling and dealing has to happen. So in ours, we sent COSA back, I think as part of it, to round out the proposal. He also came with a couple of young forwards, Dillanil Your Off and Charlie Stramel. And I think that would leave the Red Wing some decisions to make, obviously. But yeah, you could trade one to Florida. You could try to trade one to Edmonton, right?

Like there are good teams that need goalies. Edmonton and Florida. I mean, Florida has the ninth pick. And they're another team that we actually talked about because they're. They tend to be a place players like to go. But yeah, you wheel and deal from there. I think everything has to be about what's the best return you can get. If you hyper fixate on centers, well, there's not that many center prospects out there

who are clearly better than what the Red Wings already have. And Casper and Danielson, I don't know how redundant you really need to get with a cluster there, Scott. No. And excuse me because I haven't read this story, but did you guys consider Montreal in the equation? No. So the teams that we went through to start, I think, are kind of the true contenders in desirable player states. So low-tax states, you know, warm weather, you know, American markets.

Not to say that I would love to play in Montreal, but I'm just saying they're not, typically you don't see a lot of Americans on a small list having the Canadian teams. Montreal will be another one. I mentioned Utah and Anaheim. If Montreal is in the mix, that's a really good thing for Detroit because Montreal has assets. Well, and one of the things that came out of the combine, not directly out of the combine, because Fridge wasn't there, was Fridge reporting on the Matthew Nyes deal that fell through post-dedline because they missed the deadline between the Montreal Canadiens and the Toronto Maple Leafs and their willingness, by all accounts, to include a player like Alexander Zorovsky,

to include multiple first-round picks. There's Michael Hage there. There's David Reimbacker there. We know the need and desire after they played Oliver Capon in at 2C for much of the year. We know that that sort of finding a second center, not that, not that Dylan Larkin is even a second line center, but finding a second center that can play with Nick Suzuki and change the outlook of that team. Like I think they're, obviously the taxes are the taxes of it all, but from a pure hockey standpoint, from a opportunity to win standpoint, from a

market, I mean, I think players love playing in Montreal. Montreal seems like a team that has the ammunition, Anaheim and Utah, to your point, would be in that same boat. They have the pieces to make that deal happen. But Montreal feels to me like it would be a more compelling destination if you're Dylan Larkin than Anaheim or Utah even. Well, we were going through this piece, Max. I think when we got to Utah, we could see all the different ways that could make this work. I even think despite how great Dylan Larkin is, you know, an Olympian Premier play driving centerman, I think you would be really squeezing them to get either Demetri's Meshav or Caleb Denaway into that deal. I think you're probably talking about some combination of Tija Ginnla, Cole, both Dwen, Daniel Boutt, Maverick Lamarou,

I know Yuta has been trying, it's not, I don't know if it's been public reported, but I know, like, over the years I've heard Barrett Hayden's name thrown around in trade deals. Like, I think that's a reasonable name to come the other way to go center for center there. So that would make some sense to me. The one we got to that I thought was really interesting as camp of 10.

Just curious. Do you value De Noeier more than? Again, La? Because I think I'm on the other side of that. I think I would. And I think they would. They just picked him fourth overall a year ago as a center. Like, I think they'd be that. I think they'd have a real hard time letting go. They picked Teague sixth overall the year prior. And he's playing center. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think he's in NHL's center though. But, um. I think DeNoya would be just like, that's like the one young center among the teams we evaluated that I was like, this is a path for Detroit to actually.

come out in a good spot from this. I did not leave those proposals feeling really good about the position the Red Wings were in. The way they... The one that I was really intrigued by was Tampa Bay because they don't have a lot of young premium assets, but they have two centers that had really

good years. Connor Geeky was really good in the American League this year. He's one of the best young forwards, I thought, under 23 forwards in the American League. And then you have Sam O'Reilly, who just had a monster year in the O. HL. I don't know if they're not premier pro assets like a day. and Noye would be, but they're really good players.

And I think, like you said, Mex was a little bit of worry, but redundancy, like how closer they at Casper and Danielson and something along those lines. But I feel like, you know, Tampa has shown a lot of willingness to do what it takes, to win in their window with Kuturov and, and Sorrelli at point in this window they have right now. I could see them put together a package with those guys. That could be pretty desirable for, Detroit.

Not the most desirable, but one that I think could make a lot of sense for them. Scott, I want to start with your opinion on this just before we wrap here. Like, my big question in this is like, is this salvageable in any way for Detroit to remain or try to get, like, they're trying to snap a 10-year playoff drought here and their number one center wants out. To me, I look at that and say, you're almost going to have to take a step back and retool. But is there a way to salvage this in your eyes?

I don't see a path forward. We all love Mordsideer. We all love Lucas Raymond. There just isn't, we all love Simon Edvinson. I think Simon's a stud. I just don't know whether you have, if you subtract Dylan Larkin and you're adding a young piece that's a couple years away, I don't know that the timeline any longer works with those guys. And I don't know that Red Wing, I mean, you know the market better than me, but are Red Wing's fans even going to be prepared to hit a bit of it? Not that you have to go into a full-hand rebuild.

they've got tons of young pieces, but maybe they do. And are Red Wings fans even going to be able to put up with that, to put up with another four or five years? And if the answer is no and the answer is to continue pursuing what they do have, maybe you're just kicking the can down the road of three or four years from now having to make that difficult decision later than you should have. So I don't know. Like it's almost impossible to win the trade in a player for player swap.

Like you're not getting an equivalent player to Dylan Larkinback. So if you're prioritizing youth pieces or Barrett Hayton and a youth piece, I don't know where that leaves them. Like, I just don't know how you pull out of that and how you sell it to Moritz-Sider and Lucas Raymond long-term either. How many years ago did I go get traded? I think it was 2021. So, I mean, that kind of took Buffalo from there until now, and it was a really frustrating time.

and I know there was a lot of conversations of like, you know, Rasp is this is dragging on guys like Dahlene and stuff like that kind of thing. Like are they ever going to win here? Is it ever going to be ever not going to be miserable? But like that, but it's not impossible either. It's just going to require extended patients from a group of fans that have already been extremely patient.

And it's not my job to fire people, but suggest to me probably a management change at some point here a lot. in this time frame. And there's just, there's no, like, there's no Martin H.S. coming back, right? Like, that allowed the Miko Ratanin decision to be salvageable, to be palpable if you're the Colorado Avalanche. Now, Rantin's a better player than Larkin, but, like, that, that piece with the, with the way that his no move, like, I just don't, I don't, I don't, are you even getting a Logan

Stankovin plus, plus? Obviously, like, Caleb Dainoyer would, I think you'd consider. consider a win operating out of where they're at. I think the two names, Corey, that we had in there that would fit the definition a little closer. One was Alexander Nikitian. I don't think he's as good as Larkin, but, you know, with the age and top four D. The other was Thomas Harley.

And like it was maybe felt like a little bit of a stretch, but it gets cheaper for Dallas. Cap is really important to Dallas. So it makes their cap sheet better. He's coming off the down year. Like, Dill-Larkin counts almost two million less against the cap than Harley. And if you had a blue line of Harley, Cider, Edvinson, and Axel Sandine Pelica, all of those guys, 25 or younger, maybe that's your path forward. You're building around a really strong blue line, and you're still obviously dying for centers. And you've got the goal lines coming.

I remember the old Nashville teams with the really good blue lines. Like, when you look at this way they've built here, Max, like, I don't think you, maybe I'm being too nice. I don't think you can look at this team and say they've made some really glaring blunders as a management. group, like some absolutely terrible signings, terrible trades, terrible draft picks. I'm not saying their records perfect by any means. I think they get hampered a little bit by something like the Phillips, Edina, happening the year before this management group came in. But, like, I don't know, how do you assess where things stand for Detroit and how they've

kind of designed this build up until this situation? I think their mistakes are mistakes of kind of cautiousness and conservativeness, right? Right. Like, like, you're right that there's not some massive money deal that's become an anchor or some massive miss on a draft pick where the guys aren't even going to play NHL games. You know, there's draft picks you can revisit. Like the COSA pick at 15. Like if they had taken Walsett, they're in a better spot, right? Or, you know, obviously everyone looks to look at Wyatt Johnston. You know, but I think even just compare the goalies, right? If they had taken Wollstett, that could age better. You can debate the Danielson pick. I know there was a lot of people in the market that preferred Zach Benson, certainly today, that looks like Zach Benson would have been a better pick. The Red Wings also have long-needed centers, and I think taking the 6-2 skilled center who can skate, like was a defensible pick at the time, even if it's not going to age into being the correct answer. But I mean, I still could. Nate Danielson's not that old. He's going to be 22 next year. Those to me, like, but I think their mistakes are mistakes more of conservatism. The Jake Wallman trade, attaching a second

round pick to him only to see him get traded for a first. Like, that stands out. They let Shane Goss to spare walk. They gave out some contracts to Justin Hall. and but like these are things that I think almost every NHL team does. Every NHL team can list a few contracts like that that they maybe wish they hadn't get away or given out, a couple guys that they wish hadn't let get away, stuff like that. I don't disagree with you, Corey, that there hasn't been any catastrophes here, but there haven't really been any home runs. And I think especially outside the first round of the draft, Emmett Finney and Albert Johansson

are the only players they found. And those aren't impact guys necessarily. Yeah, you look at like some of their divisional rivals. There's no, yeah, there's no, there's no, there's no, there's no, there's no, there's no, that they've got in, never mind, like, Elaine Hudson type or, you know, to Buffalo, getting Samuelson in the second round or, like, yeah, like, that's, Paturco who became Done. Yeah, like, there's, that's the kind of the things they've been, feel like they've been lacking. I think, I think, feel like, yeah, and that's why I think this is so tough, right?

Because it doesn't feel like this has been, like, incompetent management or poorly executed rebuild. They've just, like, really lacked, like, that one or two moves. It's really just one or two, I feel like. That could have put them over the top. They also didn't get the lottery luck. Like, it just never bounced. It's true.

But I don't think in those years, and the years where they were really bad, like, yeah, they should have picked first overall in 2020. But they came out of that draft with Lucas Raymond. And if they were first overall, they might have come out of it with Alexei Lafranier. Like, they might have been in a better spot because of that. They dropped in 2019. They got more at Cider. Cider's probably going two in a redraft of that year. So they didn't get the luck.

But I don't actually think the luck is what kills. them outside of not getting lucky in like 23 and moving up to get you know badard or whatever but anyway a lot to unpack there i'm sure we'll talk more about this uh scott you've got a mock draft coming out on tuesday uh so that make sure everyone keep your eyes peeled for that but that is going to do it for us today thanks for listening to this episode of the athletic hockey show prospect series be back with you soon