The Athletic Hockey Show - NHL Draft Day 1 takeaways, Golden Knights trade Reilly Smith to Penguins, possible destinations for Connor Hellebuyck and Erik Karlsson

Episode Date: June 29, 2023

Together in Nashville, Ian Mendes, Sean McIndoe and Jesse Granger recap their last few days, including a traveling nightmare for Sean, and a scooter adventure for Ian and Jesse. Next, their takeaways from Day 1 of the NHL Draft, including the lack of trades in round 1, and the Anaheim Ducks taking Leo Carlsson at #2. Then, Reilly Smith's trade to Pittsburgh, and they discuss Vegas' aggressive approach to their roster management. Also, possible destinations for Connor Hellebuyck and Erik Karlsson, and to wrap up with "This Week in Hockey History", the most painful trade in DGB history.You can always email us your questions at [e-mail], or leave a VM at [phone]!Subscribe to The Athletic Hockey Show on YouTube: http://youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowGo to grammarly.com/tone to download and learn more about Grammarly Premium’s advanced tone suggestionsNuts.com is offering new customers a free gift with purchase and free shipping on orders of $29 or more at Nuts.com/hockey23 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show. It is a Thursday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. And it's a battle to see whose voice is actually in proper shape here. After a couple of days in Nashville, I think I'm okay. I think I'm okay. I'm a little rough, but I'm better than last year. Really? Last time we did this all in person, I got a lot of feedback from people saying, like,

it must have been a different mic or something because your voice. voice is very, it wasn't like, it was, it was late nights and we now know COVID as well. So,

right. I think I'm doing a little bit better. Yeah. I'm feeling much better than I was for yesterday's podcast. I'll say that. Yeah.

Yesterday morning, we did the Wednesday show. Tuesday night was a, Tuesday night was a late night for most of us. Wednesday morning was rough, a little bit better. I don't think anybody had a better time

in Nashville than Bill Garrett. You guys, first of all, you see Bill Garrett, He gets up to the podium to do the, you know, way to go, David Paul, yada. And you're looking at his eyes and you're like, did you just wake up? Did you get out of like a heavily chlorinated pool? Like what happened?

And then the first thing he says, well, big thanks to Tutsis for keeping us hydrated. I'm like, oh my God. Right? Did you guys not feel like Bulgarian look like? Fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think that was a line that was just fed to him.

Yeah. A way to pander to the home crowd. Yeah. Tutsies. That was terrible. the worst place on earth. Best place. Terrible.

Awful place. It's funny. The guy from Vegas is like, that's amazing. And then the two guys from Ottawa are like, you know, it seemed a little crowded. Yeah,

that's it. The guy from Vegas is like, it's a nice relaxed place. It was right. I know. Someone told me, they're like, man,

I wish it wasn't so crowded him here. Like, what do you mean? We got plenty of space to move around. This is nothing. Yeah. Yeah. So,

you know, speaking of moving around, I do want to get to this because Sean was fascinated by the use of scooters the other night. And now, I had never been on a scooter. And I wish I had like 10 or 15 minutes just to play around with the scooter,

understand how it works. I've never been on one of these things. But it was you, great. It was Jesse Granger, myself, Saad, and Terrick. Four of us get on these scooters. So I've never been on one of these before. And these guys just take off, like down the street in traffic. You know, they're not because you're like, flying.

And I'm flying. And I'm like, okay, well, stop, start. You know, I was, you know, the Austin Powers, the 30. That was me just kind of learning, like, okay? Now they're out of sight. And now I don't even know where I'm going. But then my phone, literally my phone rings. I can feel it buzzing in my pocket.

I'm like, oh, this is like, like nobody ever phones me. So usually when somebody phones me, it's either air duct cleaning or like something big is going down. I'm like, oh my God. It's actually somebody phoning me. And it's somebody who keeps me in the loop about the brinket. Like, oh, okay. So I pull over, I get off on the sidewalk, and I'm taking this call. And now I'm thinking like, oh, these guys are gone.

I don't know what I'm going to do. We turn around and I'm like, where did Ian go? Lost him. He's gone. So I turned around and drove all the way back, like three blocks back to find him. Yeah, finds me there on the phone. I almost ran into Roberto Luongo was in the crosswalk. And I almost ran into him on a scooter.

I was like, what is going on? That would have been great. What a sentence to say. What a season finale. Yeah. After defending goalies all year long, Jesse Granger kills a goaltender at the NHL draft. A scooter, he takes out Roberto Loh.

And then Joe Sackick walked by. I think it was Joe Sackick's son. I don't think it was Joe Sackick, but he looked just like him. So I'm convinced it was Joe Sackick's son. Anyway, I got back on the scooter, they still went ahead.

The only time I was afraid, to be honest. Do you remember at one point in the scooter ride to the restaurant, there was trees and you had to duck underneath them? That's the only, I'm like, imagine that's how I go out. Like, this is, decapitated by,

like on a scooter in Nashville. 1984 video game was this scooter ride. You guys got to duck tree branches. Yeah, it was. It was. The tree branches were literally the exact height of the, like, scooter handle.

So you had to be like, you had to be below the scooter handle. And I'm like, oh my God, this is how it's going to end for me. I had a blast. I was jumping off curves. It was great.

Granger was like the Tony Hawk. Are you an experience? Scooter Redd? No, but I did skateboard when I was a kid, like, younger. See, but when Granger was a kid and I was a kid, the time spans a little bit different. Because I also used a skateboard as a kid, you know, all that stuff. It's been a little bit longer. It's been a little bit longer. A little bit longer. Anyway, it was a blast. And then we had a great kind of staff get together on that Tuesday night. Because for people who remember the podcast from last year, the three of us could not find food in Montrose.

Trial. And this year was completely different. We had no problem getting. It was great. Yeah. It was great. It was fantastic. Tuesday was a super great day. Oh, my God. We almost forgot. Let's talk about Sean's adventures of getting from Ottawa to Nashville. Because this was not a, this wasn't an easy trip for you. No. Well, I ended up, so I missed everything on Tuesday. I got in Tuesday night. I was supposed to get here on Monday. Everything got canceled. This was on Monday, anyone who's out east, there were bad storms and Newark especially, but all the New York airports were just canceling everything. And of course, that's where I was flying through. And it just, everything got canceled. So I just went home and got on the phone to try to

rebook and there was just nothing. There was no way. You need to tell us, tell the listeners about the one itinerary that was offered up to you. This is great. They kept saying it wasn't one. The very nice and helpful lady that I spoke to kept saying, you know, we're going to put you through SFO, SFO. And finally, I said, I'm sorry, this must sound like a stupid question, but you keep saying SFO and I thought that was San Francisco.

And she goes, yeah, it is. And I'm like, you're not going to fly me from Ottawa to San Francisco and then give me like an eight hour layover and we hope for the best. I don't want to be further away than... What was the total time again of that trip? Well, no, that one would have been a very long day. And then as all this is happening, I was texting with a few people and one of them was Myrtle.

And he's like, oh, you got to go on kayak. That'll set you up. Just book whatever you need there. And it came back with a 44-hour itinerary. Three stops. 44. Like, how does that even... How is that even an option?

How can that even come up? Like, there's got to be at some point the... program, just say no. Just say you don't have anything. And so it ended up that as the other problem we were having is even though United had canceled all my flights on Monday, they hadn't like released me off their off the itinerary so I couldn't, they couldn't rebook me. So they were on hold. They being the the company travel people forever. I'm just sitting there for for an hour. And then she suddenly pops on and she's like, United just told me they, have one trip, Ottawa, Toronto, Chicago, Nashville. There's four-hour layovers in between everything.

It's on Tuesday. You'd get in late Tuesday night. Do you want it? Yes or no? You've got like 30 seconds. I said, yeah, let's roll the dice. And Tuesday went smooth. It was a long, long day, but everything was on time. Everything went the way it was supposed to. So at the end of the day, like, I got here, and it was a pain. But it wasn't as bad as, some other people. A lot of people. Including, and we want to tell our listeners about this, Saad Yusuf, who covers the Dallas Stars. Just a terrific story that's today

about the two Dallas Stars scouts from Sweden who had an, I won't give it away, but just an adventure to end all adventures to get here. And we also want to say we really legitimately feel badly for our colleague, Shana Goldman. Yes. Sean's talking about Newark. Shana couldn't even get out from Newark.

Stuck. Matthew Fairburn from Buffalo. He drove. From Buffalo. 13 hours, he said it was 13 hours. What? Yeah. Dedication.

Like, Sean probably could have, like Ottawa to Nashville, I think to drive would be about 16 hours, maybe 15, 16 hours. You know what? Door to door, you probably would have made it faster. Well, if I had left on Monday, I would have, right. I definitely would have been here. My favorite, my favorite thing, Sean on Monday, when he's going to the airport, he tweets out, oh, damn, I forgot my headphones. Yeah.

Is this, is this not the worst thing that could happen to me? And it's like, it's like you poke the airport dots. They're like, you'll teach you. I'll teach you this. But you got here yesterday, you live blog, day one of the draft with Sean Gentilly. And I'll tell you, I thought the draft moved along at a really quick pace. Like, in fact, at one point, I looked up on a squad, we're already at like the 22nd, 23rd pick. I think a part of that was it was just no trades, right?

Like usually Gary gets up that we have a trade to announce and everyone's like, oh, wow, rushing the crowd. Does everybody have a Gary Betman impression with me? Yeah, I think so. Is that like a podcast thing? You just have to, okay. I got to say, as someone who's who's covering a team with the 32nd pick, it did not seem to move to all that.

No, that's a good point. That's a good point. But was that, was that disappointing? Like, as a guy who's live blogging event, and it's basically not newsworthy outside of, you know, obviously what the Flyers did and a couple of effects were. Newsworthy, but... Yeah, no, I mean, I'll go further. It was, look, it was, it was the Connor Bardard graph,

which we, it doesn't feel exciting in the moment because we all know he's the number one pick. We all know where it was going. But we will look back and be like, hell yeah, we were there the night that Connor Bader got picked and it all started. So you had that was cool. Anaheim, well, in a, you know,

a little bit of a switcheroo on us at number two was interesting. A little bit of a switcheroo. This poor Ducks fans sitting outside. I ran into him. With the Fantilly jersey? Yes, and he's got a Fantilly jersey on. And I'm like, how did you get that jersey so fast? He's like, yeah, I wish I hadn't got it this fast.

Yeah, no kidding. Well, I mean, what, who had it tougher? One Ducks fan with the full Fantilly jersey or all the Havs fans who bought the Shane Ray shirts last year. Yeah. I feel like the Jersey guys got it worse. Yeah, it's expensive. That's a tough one. And then we got out of the Mitch Cobb watch, which I thought was probably the most interesting part of the draft

and had the most potential to be interesting. But it just ends up being, he drops a couple of picks, the teams we didn't think wanted him, didn't take them. The first team we thought might did take them. Nobody traded up. Nobody jumped in. Nobody did anything creative. And then after that, it just was.

Snoose City. I mean, if you're a prospect guy, if you know all the names and then it was interesting. And, you know, if you're a blues fan or somebody where they had the multiple picks, but it just was everybody just going by the book. And in fact, late in the draft,

at one point I even turned to Gentilin, I was like, nobody's even gone off the board. Like, people are going, like, you know, that's because Ottawa

didn't have a pick in the first round. Maybe, maybe. Well, I mean, between Promin and Wheeler, like they had their list, both of which were,

they were fairly different. But I, I think every pick was within like three to five of one of those guys. And then we got to the Leaps. And the Leafs went, you know, kind of off the board. So that taught me to say anything.

But, man, that, the 20, 25 picks, right? After Mitchcov, it was a bit of a, like, if you turned off the draft after that and said, I'll just get caught up Thursday morning, you didn't really miss anything. And obviously, like you said, Golden Knights picked 32nd. But they did make a trade on Wednesday. Now, it would have been better if they waited until the draft and Gary could have. have announced it, whatever, but one of the OG Golden Knights is out in Riley Smith. And we were talking about this just before we started recording that.

Like, man, like they run that organization in a kind of ruthless manner. Like even though there's a sentimental connection, I think, between Riley and the fan base and all that, see you later. This is what works for us. You're out. I know you had conversations with people around the night yesterday. What was the thought process there in moving one of the most popular guys ever played for the organization. Yeah, he's a super popular guy. Obviously, being a part of that original team,

that just automatically, like, makes you one of the fan favorites. But outside of that, like, Riley Smith was probably the most philanthropic, like, connected player on the team. He runs a charity softball game every year where it's the Golden Knights versus the Raiders, and they raise hundreds of thousands of dollars. So he's partial owner of a restaurant across the street from the practice facility. Like, he was really embedded in Vegas. So, um, The fans obviously devastated to see the news, but it makes logical sense when you look at it from just a team-building perspective because they trade a former first-round pick in Zach Dean to St. Louis for Ivan Barbashev last trade deadline. So you're invested in that player. And you win a Stanley Cup

so you could say, you know what, that was well worth that first-round prospect, just that cup alone, even if you let Barbishchev walk. But Barbechev was such a perfect fit on this team. He went right into that first line winger roll next to Ikel and Marsha. So, and those two are kind of more skilled perimeter players and Barbashev just crashes the front of the net and he's just a wrecking ball in there. And it just was a perfect stylistic fit from day one. And you win a Stanley Cup and he's a huge part of it and they're like, we got to keep this guy. And so now you're just, okay, we don't have very much cap space. So Barbishchev wants about $5 million a year. Riley Smith makes $5 million a year. I asked Kelly what the decision was like between those two. Kelly McCriman told me it wasn't

a decision between those two, but that's not true. It was, it most certainly was a decision between those two. And it comes down to, I think you could argue either side is a better player. I think Riley Smith is a more complete player. I think he's very underrated. He does all the details right. He gets the toughest defensive matchups every night and he handles it well. But he's 32 and Ivan Barbashev is five years younger. He's 27. And so they sign Barbashev to the five years. your deal five by five. And he won't be 32 until the end of that deal. So I think all things being equal, you take the 27 year old over the 32 year old. You move on from Riley Smith. They actually got a third round pick, which the way trades have been happening in these off seasons with teams trying to

clear, like a third round pick is a pretty good return. I mean, it sounds awful because Riley Smith's such a good player. But the way the trade market's been with the flat cap and teams having to basically give players away. So they get a return for Riley Smith. They then turn around immediately sign I have and Barbashev to that extension. So it's, I think, a tough day for Golden Knights fans who really love Riley Smith. But I think from a, if you take emotion out of it, there's a lot of logic behind it. Barbishev was a good fit. And I think the Golden Knights are in pretty good shape after it.

And that's what the Knights do. They take all the emotion out of it. The vibe I get from them is they manage the team. Like, you ever play a video game or a computer game where you're like managing the team, you know, the franchise mode, in man or whatever? And it's like that, right? If, okay, there's a, oh, there's a star player available. I want that star player.

Let's go, let's figure out how to get them. Oh, I've got to, I can get 3% better on this forward over that forward. Get rid of the old guy, bringing the new guy. And you could say that's absolutely the right way to do it. I mean, they just want a Stanley Cup with that approach. But it's fascinating to me to see, you know, a guy who's literally, you know, not to be, not to be a smart aleck but a guy who has been the entire history of the franchise just shuffled off because the new the new guy came in and he gets your spot he gets your money um not a bad

way to go out though hey your last moment in a golden nights uniform being the first cup handoff uh that's i guess if he got to go yeah right way to do it and like they're like obviously his teammates were devastated might be a strong word but but sad to see a teammate go uh William carlson and Jonathan Marshall. So those three are best friends. But it takes a little bit of the sting out of it that you all want a cup together, right? Like the fact that they won the cup together and they'll always have that moment. And like, you know, you hear all the players say when you win a cup with guys, it's like your friends for life. And that's just a connection you have. So they got to win the cup together. And now Riley goes to Pittsburgh where I think he's going to be very good. Like if you're Riley Smith, you don't want to leave Vegas. But if you're going to get moved in a cap shedding maneuver, there are a lot worse things to happen than you're. he's most likely going to be playing on either Sidney Crosby or Evgeny Malkin's wing. So, like, I would be shocked if he's not on one of those two lines. So pretty good spot for Smith to land for the last two years of his deal, if you're going to get moved.

Yeah. And so, look, that was one of the deals that went down on Wednesday. We're sitting here recording this podcast Thursday just kind of as the second round starts. Like, do you guys feel like the Dubois piece? That was a big one? Tim O'Meier, we were wondering what was going to happen. That situation's resolved. He's re-up there.

Alex DeBrinke is now, I think the guy, like when you read most trade bait boards on our site, other sites, whatever, Alex De Brinkett is pretty much near the top. Now, you and I were chatting yesterday, Jesse, as soon as that Riley Smith deal was made, I ran into it. I'm like, is there any way this is Vegas cleaning up some space to take a run at De Brinket? And you're like 100%. Yeah, it seems like something they do. 100%.

But that obviously wasn't the case. my understanding of it and had a good chat with Pierre Dorian on Wednesday is there's nothing imminent with Alex De Brinkin. And I think this is what's going to happen. I think it's going to, they're going to, and again, everything I'm saying could be

completely changed within five minutes, but I think we're going to get into mid-July on this one. I really do. I'm starting to think that this is going to play out exactly like Matthew Kichuk last year. Remember Matthew Kachuk? We went to the draft in Montreal and is he going to get moved? And there was, who was, who was?

the team, was it, was it, um, who's the team that it was rumored to like, Philadelphia? Who had the second overall pick last year? Uh, who was picking number two after? Jersey. Yeah, it was, yeah, was that not the rumor that like the devils were taking a run at Matthew Kachuk? And we're willing to give up this.

Anyway, but all of that happened and then nothing happened and we're like, wow, what's going to, and then it, like two, three weeks went by. And then as we got closer to the arbitration date, that's when the deal happened. And then that's when, when Florida swooped in. I think that's what's going to happen on Alex De Brinket here. Does that make sense for Ottawa, though, because I saw you had your piece where you had Peerodorian saying there's no pressure point. There's no inflection point at the draft.

And I don't know. I mean, Jesse just said his, he just said his GM told him something that it wasn't true. Yeah, they all lie. I mean, Peer Dorian to say there's no inflection point today. I get that. And probably, I mean, certainly if you're Peridorian, you've got. an asset like Alex to work it, you're hoping you get a first round pit. So that makes last night the inflection point. When it comes and goes, maybe that does take a bit of the pressure off.

But to me, I'm looking at July 1st because cap space is tight around the league right now. But when July 1st comes, that cap space gets spent. And so is anybody going to have the, whatever the number is with DeBringk it, you know, it's 9 million, but it could be a little bit less if it goes to arbitration. And obviously you're trying to sign them long term. but, you know, there's not going to be a lot of teams in mid-July that have $8 million on the cap just sitting around. The options for sure go down after all the free agents have been bought. Yeah, it's a great point. I don't know, but I just saw how it played out with Kachuk last year.

I feel like this is headed down the same path, but yeah, we'll see. I mean, the flip side of that is if you're a Senators fan, you're saying, well, you know, it's only, it's only eight or nine million going out the door if we don't get anything bad. If we're getting picks and prospects, then it's out the door. but we want players back. We want the Matthew Kachuk type of deal. And especially as you guys talk about July 1st, well, you're going to want to know your budget for next year. Like maybe you want to go out and acquire players or sign guys.

And anyway, so that's what, the other one I want to ask you guys about is do you think Connor Hellebuck? I don't know Kevin Chubble Dayoff spoke on Wednesday. Didn't sound like there was anything imminent on Shifley and Hellebuck. But Hellebuck to me is the most, and with apologies to Alex De Brinkett. Connor Hullabuck's the most interesting guy on the trade market for me. You don't often see goaltenders of this stature with that type of resume.

That's the cliche. Every year. Every year. What happens to you? Yes. And there's always, you know, it ends up being Matt Murray or, you know, whoever like that. And you go, oh, that's who they wound up with. And people say, well, they sit you down and they get very, they pull out their serious voice.

And they say, you understand, right? That Vezina caliber goaltenders just aren't on the trade market. that any team that had a guy like that isn't looking to trade them. Now we actually have the guy out there. But you're right because I'm fascinated because what even is the goaltending market? After that playoffs, we just saw where, I mean, if you had gone down the list of the star goaltenders, right? Shasturkin, Sroken, Vazolevsky, all out in the first round.

Sergei Brabowski, this guy that we thought was a bum, kind of reborn as, as his old self, which in theory, you know, you're looking at that going, okay, that's, you know, that's what a goalie can do for you at playoff time. He's, he's out here just dragging this team to all these upset wins, taking them all the way to Stanley Cup final. So maybe that boosts the idea of go out and get a big name goalie. Yeah. But when it's all said and done, last guy standing, Aiden Hill. So if I'm a GM, do I need, do I need a goalie at all? Why don't I just go get the third string guy off the 28th place team and that guy might be good enough. Yeah. So what am I going to give up for Connor Hellebuk?

Right. I think, yeah, the two teams that made the finals, like made arguments against each other, right? Yeah, exactly. The $10 million goal, he finally worked and then he lost to three goalies that nobody had ever heard of and just were behind a really strong team. For me, and I said this yesterday, I think Hellebuck, it's most interesting, but also I don't think there's a, another player out there that will impact the Stanley Cup odds. And not just the actual odds, but just the way we all feel heading into next season. I don't think there's a player out there, a move out there that can change as dramatically the way we feel about a team than if New Jersey or one of these teams adds Connor Hellebuck,

because that position is just so important. And like Mark Andre Fleury got traded after his Vez in a season, but he was a little older. Like Connor Hellebuck is in the prime of his career. He's been one of the best goalies in the league for four straight, five straight years, statistically probably even longer if you ignore the bad, the one down season. But to me, it's a question of, I don't think it's the assets you have to give up for Connor Hellebuck that's maybe holding things up. I think it's the contract that you have to give him after.

And it's what GM in this environment, like you just said all the reasons in this environment where maybe you don't have to pay your goalie a lot to win, which GM is going to. to say, no, I'm going to be the one to do it. I'm going to trade these assets for him and I'm going to sign him to that big extension. That is where you get so worried. I have written about this for going back years now. I call it the shiny new toy syndrome, which is when you look at the very worst contracts in the league, so many of them are guys who a team has just traded for. You trade for a guy who's either an RFA needs a new deal right away or it's a guy who is one year away. You want to get that extension done. Because as a GM, I mean, what leverage do you have? You've just given up a bunch

of assets. You've had the press conference. Your fans are excited. And then you got to sit down and work out a deal with this guy. I mean, they've got you over a barrel at that point. They're saying, I mean, we know you love this guy. We just saw what you gave up for him. So you got to get the big contract. And so many of them, those awful deal, Seth Jones, great example, right? Chicago goes out in trades for him. The trade itself, not bad, but they go and do the extension. They go and do the extension. You look at last year, I mean, Matthew Kachuk's situation, that looks like a great deal for Florida, but then look at what Calgary got coming back, right? McKenzie Uighur, maybe not bad. The Jonathan Huberto deal looks disastrous right now. A lot of us love that trade for Calgary when it went down, but now you got to sign the guys. And it's just, you go on down the list. There are so many awful trades like, so many trades that on paper, the trade itself is fine. But it's that contract you give out. And to give to,

to give a goaltender who's, you know, 30 years old, seven years, eight years if it's a sign or trade, I wouldn't want any part of it. Now, again, we've been talking about the, you know, look at this year's final. Go back a few years before that, right? You know, because the counter argument is going to be, oh, so you wouldn't give a guy eight years, so you wouldn't get like, you know, an Andre Vasselowski guy. Look at him, right? Oh, you can't win with a goalie out of big contract. Two championships, another trip to the final with Andre Vasselowski. the Lightning would do that deal again 10 times out of 10.

You look at Colorado. Colorado wins with Darcy Kemper, certainly not a guy at that level, but a guy they went and traded for the year before. They trade it, gave up a first round pick, had them for one year, let them walk, but they got a Stanley Cup out of it. You know, Kevin Sheffledayoffs pulling that out.

And then you go back further than that, and St. Louis wins with a guy out of the ECHL. So who knows, who has any idea. It's complete voodoo. It really does feel like you, look at the New Jersey Devils. And to me, that's, that's the, that's the, the nexus of all of this because they're, there's, how often do we say, right?

We say there's no good goalies available. And usually good teams already have a goalie. Bad teams don't have goalies, but bad teams shouldn't be given up stuff. New Jersey is a really, really good team that doesn't have the goal. Okay. But when you listen to Pierre LeBron and all the insiders, they keep saying, Helibuck wants Vasilevsky money, right? So that's nine, nine, nine and a half.

Which he should. And I'm not arguing against that at all. But like Sean says, if you give him seven years, eight years, you know, takes him into his mid to late 30s, the bigger question I have is can they even fit him in now that they got? Like my question is, was Timo Myers money, the money for Connor Hellebuck? Or like, like, I love, like, I think in two years from now, the Jack Hughes contract will be the best contract in the NHL. You could make the case right now.

right now. Like, like, they got him at a little bit of it. Like, is there enough there? Like, is there enough money that you think you can get Hellebuck at the $9 million that he wants? Yeah. And how much of it is Hellebuck wanting, you know, how much is he factoring in the fit, you know, what, what team he's on. Maybe he's got certain preferences on, on where he'd like to play, all of that sort of stuff. He does, I don't know if he has any sort of no trade protection, but in this case, his no trade protection. is the fact that he needs to sign an extension. If he just tells him, I'm not going to sign an extension with you, they won't trade for him.

So he can pick whatever. If we heard, has, has Winnipeg said anything about being open to let him talk to teams? Or is this, do you have to go in line? No, it's interesting because Otto was in the exact same boat with the brinket. And they're not letting him talk to other teams until they feel like they've got the framework of a trade. Then they're going to green light.

Which is not a bad way to do it. It's not a bad way to do it. Because it's, it's tough, right? Because you, on the one hand, you might have teams calling, up saying, you know, oh, what do you, Pierre, you want a first round? I can't do a first round pick if I don't know why I can get them signed. So maybe the market is a little bit cooler, but the flip side is you started letting people talk to your guy. I know. Then your guys' demands are high and people come back on, you know what, I'm out.

And suddenly you don't have a market anymore because nobody's all that interested. So I mean, there's, even if he can't talk to people, there's ways for it to be done, right? There's ways for that information to get out to teams on and temperatures to be taken. But yeah, I'm with you. That is the most interesting thing. And I can't, was it Pierre, his piece? Somebody this week had something saying, don't be stunned if Connor Hellebuck is the Jets goaltender on opening night.

Man, I don't know, I don't know that you can do that. Would you guys, if New Jersey gets Conor Hellebuck, how comfortable are you saying the New Jersey Devils are the team to be? in the Eastern Conference? I mean, there's so many good teams in the East. Like, Florida beat them all. So, like, the 8th seed ended up coming out. And I think we forget how stacked the East was, like, at the start of the playoffs,

with Boston and Tampa and Toronto. Like, Healthy Carolina. Yeah. I don't, I think they're significantly better. And I feel a lot better about them. And I think they're absolutely right there with Boston and Toronto and those teams. But I wouldn't say they're the fate. Like, they're the team to be.

be I've been worried for you know for for a while now that we were going to see the step back from New Jersey that that's so often when you see a young team make that unexpected leap right was the correction year we're just way I mean not even necessarily correction even if it was just a year where they stayed put uh that would feel like a disappointment for a team like this because we you know we all we've all got these little lizard brains and we just remember only what what's recently happened and you see a team make that big step and say, okay, it's going to be that every year, and so often it isn't. But also so often, especially when it's a young team, you don't see the major changes happen.

You see them, see, they stay the course. So this would be a big, you know, a big move. And, boy, I'd be, I'm fascinated to see it. I know Buffalo is another team that's kind of looking to make that New Jersey type of leap. But do you think Helibuck, the Buffalo makes any sense on, like, I think Buffalo is right there, but they also, and I love, Devin Levi, I love this guy. Like I had some chance to spend some time with him at the Worlds.

The most ice in his veins, cool, calm, like, and he actually looks like, you guys ever looked at a picture of Devin Levi? Put it side by side next to Kerry Price. Like, legitimately he looks exact. And anyway, I just love this kid. I just think he's just so cool and calm. But if you're Buffalo, would you kick the tires on Connor Hallibuck or no?

I think you kick the tires. I mean, the thing with Hellebuck is we're talking, as we always do when you talk about contracts, we're talking about the dollar value. You know, is it going to start with a nine? Is it going to be Vasilevsky money? To me, it's the length that scares me for a guy. If I'm Buffalo and Connor Hellebuck is willing to do a shorter deal, I'll go up to a high number. Yeah, absolutely. I've got no problem with Vasilevsky money.

but it's it's though it's that long long term thing and doesn't this feel a little bit like the florida panthers was sergey brabrovsky to you know when they signed him as a free agent and i think it was the same year they drafted spencer night yeah and and that one even there you sort of went why would you why would you have uh you know you got spencer night why would you go out and give seven eight years to to a goaltender like sergey bobrowski and that was a goal he was still going to be three years away and then we saw even not that long into the contract, suddenly you're sitting there going,

okay, now you've got two guys. How does it fit? In the case of a Buffalo, their kids way closer, to the point where he could be ready this year. I mean, maybe this is the year that he's there. So I don't think you want to put an eight-year guy ahead of him,

but at the same time, if you're Buffalo, you might be sitting there going, you know, what are we up to, 12 years without the playoffs? Yeah. Got pieces here.

We can't do this again. We can't get up to the door and then fall back and have to start all over again, we've got to make the push forward. So maybe you take the big swing. But New Jersey feels like the much better fit to me. But I honestly think the devils, if they get Hellebuck, they added to Foley, they got all those,

Myers coming back, Dougie Hamilton. I just don't know who's a better team in the East. It's a great team. They almost won the division last year. Right? They almost won the division. Now you've gotten Hellebuck Antifoli in this scenario. And you did it.

Like, I just don't know how they're not the best team in the conference. And I think the needle is pointing down. Boston won the most games in the history of the league last. I mean, yeah, they're going to lose some guys and like they're getting a year older. But I just feel like the needle is pointing down on Boston, on Tampa. I'm not sure about Toronto, which way that needle is, it just might be a straight line. but I all of those teams there's only one of them that the needle is pointing firmly up and that's New Jersey like the Rangers might be flat the Carolina Hurricanes might be five

one team out of the eight and how you might add the best teams yeah absolutely and you now you might add a vest in the I just don't know how they're not the best team in the but but what a great turn of events for that franchise right like it's been a tough yep like and I always think too if I was a player I know some people think like I wouldn't want to play in New Jersey Wouldn't you guys think it's a great spot to play? Like you're literally a stone's throw from Manhattan. You can enjoy the city life as you need it. You can, you know, like I feel like you have all the benefits of a big city without the big city pressure, without the big city, you know, media market, all that stuff.

Got a flawless airport that just works like a well-oil machine right there for you. Newark is right there. Yeah. It's, yeah, anyway, it's, it's going to be fascinating. Here's my last question on Hellabook, right? Because we talk about New Jersey. Buffalo, maybe not. Who else is out there?

Because if you're Winnipeg, if there's only one team bidding, this isn't going to go well. This is not going to be a deal that Winnipeg fans like. If there's two teams bidding that really want the guy, that changes the whole equation. And then obviously if you get three, four, five, I'm just not sure who else is out there.

that again, like there's certainly lots of bad teams that need a goalie. But if you're Connor Hellebock with that leverage, well, when you look at good teams that need a goalie, so Carolina has already said they want to sign, they want to bring back their two goalies, Anderson and Randtaback. Yeah.

If they were to suddenly not want to bring those two back, Carolina is a great team that could use a goalie, and they've been looking for a goalie. I feel like I say, I've been saying this every year since I've been alive, that Carolina needs a goalie. Every year, their goaltending ends up being good enough. No, it isn't.

This is the argument I have with everyone. The goaltending is terrible. The team in front of them is just so good that it covers it up. And then the stats are fine. And then trust me, I get it from Hurricane fans because I tell them their goalies are bad. And then halfway through the year, they've got a 915 save percentage. And they're like, you were wrong. They're great.

And then you get to the playoffs when you actually need the goalie to make some saves and he can't. And it's been happening forever. with this team. And it's like, during the regular season, when you, when, what, Carolina has like 85% of the shot attempts in every game they play because they possess the puck so well, the goaltending doesn't matter. Then you get to the playoffs. The games get important. Everything tightens up. I mean, Freddie Anderson was good this year, though, in the playoffs. I think he was okay. I think he was. What did Freddie Anderson do to get kicked out of the goaltending fraternity here? This is, I think he's, I think he's an okay goalie. I, like, I think

Freddie Anderson's a fine goalie. Is he a Stanley Cup winning goalie? I don't know. I think Connor Hellebuck is. You just covered Aiden Hill. Like, you know what I mean? Like, like, like, I, I think he's good enough. But, okay.

But counting on that, counting on getting that is, that's a different story. It's not a strategy to say somebody's going to come out of nowhere next year. So we're just hope it's our guy. That's not. No, no, no. But if you put like, but you're, to your point, Carolina dominates the analytics, the underlying numbers, all that, that in theory, if any thing, if any team should be able to win with pedestrian goaltending, it's them.

I agree. I agree with that. But don't you always, one thing you hear about Carolina is, gosh, they could use a sniper. They could use a score. Somebody would finish your touch, right? Yeah. Right. They couldn't finish.

Yeah. And the other thing is, you know, if we're talking about a guy who's a year away from free agency, wants a big contract, is Carolina the spot for that? You know, is Tom done. Maybe not. The guy who's going to sign the record-breaking goldender contract, the way that they work there. Right. And all signs point to them bringing back their two guys. And again, it's not, you don't look at them and say, wow, their goaltitting is terrible. Good luck. It's okay. It's fine. It's just,

if Carolina gets Carter Hellebuck, are they not the favorites in the East? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I think so. So it's like, yeah, that may be, maybe, maybe Hella buck, like you said earlier, he could be the guy that swings the odds in, uh, in somebody's favorite. The last guy I want to talk about is Eric Carlson. Because here's the reigning Norris trophy winning defenseman, fresh off 100-point season. Fun little story for the listeners.

So we're staying at the same hotel here in Nashville as the San Jose sharks. Sharks are in our hotel. We had staff meetings throughout the week. And on Monday, we had a meeting that was like adjacent to the Sharks room. So literally you'd walk in and there was a sign, you know, San Jose Sharks, you know,

meeting room A. the athletic meeting room B. And I guess the sharks lost their, you know what? They're like, we are not having, because you can imagine 25 reporters with cups up against the... You know that you always see the tweet, we're hearing that?

Like, it would have literally been true this time. We're hearing that San Jose is really... So they punted us to a different room, but then our guy, like James Myrtle and everyone were like, actually the sharks upgraded us. Yeah. The room was huge. Huge ballroom.

Anyway, but so the sharks are here and obviously, it got me thinking like, I wonder, like, are they super sensitive to the fact that maybe some of the stuff they're going to be chatting about? And you would think Carlson would be at the top of the list that they're worried about that. But now we're sitting here on Thursday. Carlson hasn't been moved. And Mike Greer said, probably not.

Somebody said, are you willing to eat 50% of Carlson's sour? And his answer was probably not, which is definitely, he didn't say definitely not. So to me, it left a little. Like a little bit of room to get in the door. But here's my question. Even if they don't eat 50%, if they ate 20% or 30%, now you're getting Eric Carlson at 8, 8.5,

whatever, if Eric Carlson was a free agent on Sunday, and you could sign him for four years at 8.5, would you do it? Yeah. I think so. To me, that is how the math works on this. What would Eric Carlson get on a four-year deal on the open market.

I think at least eight and a half. Okay, well, so here's the thing, though. If he gets eight and a half, if we're saying that is the comfort level as far as the risk with the injury and everything, then that means that's how much the sharks have to eat just to get this down to neutral value. Remember, you sign a free agent.

You're not giving up assets. So you're not getting a first round pick by knocking it down to eight and a half. You're not getting top prospects. That's the number they have to get down to for this to just be some team will take him. and then you have to get even lower than that to create the value where you're now getting assets. So, I mean, I'm, I said at the deadline, I said this is the time to move Eric Carlson.

Because he's having an all-time great season. You're getting five playoff runs instead of four. You're getting, including the playoff run in the greatest season that he'll probably ever have in his career. And everybody said the usual NHL stuff, it's too complicated. It's going to take too long, kick the can down the road we have to do in the summer. And I said at the time, I don't think in the summer. summer, they're going to be able to do it. Now, what has changed is it feels like the conversation has gone from the sharks would be open to an Eric Carlson trade. Eric Carlson would be open to it to

Eric Carlson wants to be moved. And at this point, if Eric Carlson is going to my career saying, get me out of here, not necessarily in so many words, but I want to go play for a contender. I don't want to be here for the rebuild. Maybe that, you know, maybe that motivates everyone a little bit more, but I think the time to do it was during the season. And I think that right now, I mean, if you're a Sharks fan and you're sitting there going, this guy just had one of the greatest seasons of defensemen's ever had. He just won the Norris trophy, man. We're going to get a ton for this guy. I don't know that you are unless, you know, Mike Greer. And look, if I'm Mike Greer, I'm sitting there with a sliding scale. When teams call up and say, what's going to cost to

get Eric Carlson with some salary retained? Well, what are we talking about? You want 50 percent? the price looks like this and it's high and it involves, you know, some real top shelf as, you know, could we go down to 30%? Okay, now the price looks like this. You know, can we get it as close to zero as possible? Then suddenly the price gets real cheap and we just move on from the contract. But I don't, I don't know that it's going to happen. And I can't wait until this podcast comes out in three hours. And Carlson's been traded. De Brinket's been traded. They've been traded for each other. The entire thing is completely Three-way deal with Hellebuck Maybe worked in.

We have to get our producer to cut it all out. He's like, why is the podcast only seven minutes long? It's just all scooter talk. What the hell? Hell is this? I think, and this is an opportunity to give the little, the plug for BetMGM, which is our partner here with the athletic.

And as you look at the odds, people put the odds out on where is Eric Crossing it end up? Interestingly enough, Ottawa is at the top. is at the top of the list. And that's his, like, Eric lives in Ottawa, loves it. I can't tell you how much, the guy loves it there. You just don't think it works right now for Ottawa. But I, you know, you probably read this.

LeBron said Trillivin kicked the tires a little bit on Carlson to Toronto. What do you guys think? If you had to pick a spot that Eric, like, would you be comfortable saying, I'm willing to put money down that Eric Carlson ends up in the province of Ontario? I don't think, I don't think the, I don't think the Leafs are written on it. This is one of these things that you've, you've heard. a lot of in the last little while is that Bradtrelliving calls about everybody. And in fact, I've, I've, I've, I've had some Calgary fans say, you know, you're going to just have to get,

you're going to have to get used to the fact that he's in on everybody and doesn't get any of. He's the opposite of Vegas, which, which, you know what, that's not a bad way to be as a GM. You should be in on it. You should pick up the phone. Who knows? You know, you don't have the caper. Maybe you don't even have the need. Pick up the phone. Have the 10 minute conversation. Who knows where it leads. But having that guy in Toronto is an interesting fit because we all know any conversation that the Maple Leafs, because they suck up so much of the oxygen coverage-wise in Canada, in the NHL in general, as soon as they even talk to anyone, it gets out there. The Leafs are talking to somebody because then Eric Carlson's picture is going to be on

the top of every homepage because you're going to hear the Leafs are run on. I can't imagine that there's any scenario where it makes sense for the Leafs to, you know, not to add a guy like that. They need a great defenseman like that. But with the way the salary is working and everything, I just can't see it. Ottawa, I think not to beat the dead horse, but in the middle of the season before the ownership change and Pierre Dorian was on a little more secure ground, probably makes sense. It's tough. I don't, I'd be very surprised.

if it's, I would be outright shocked if it was Toronto and I'd be surprised if it was Ottawa. I agree with you. It's going to end up in Vegas, isn't it? I agree with you that the salary cap doesn't make any sense for the Leafs, but I said it yesterday. I don't care. Do it anyway. It's too much fun. It's too much fun to have that guy.

The way he moves the puck up the ice to those forwards in that market with that story about how they haven't won in forever. I need it. I need it. I need Eric Carlson in Toronto. I mean, how much are senators fans cringing right now, hearing us even say that? Carlson to Toronto. Like, that would hurt on so many, so many levels. Yeah.

Like, like, I mean, you already had to watch us corrupt Jason Spets. Yeah, Spets. Yeah. Spetso was, now seeing Spets in Pittsburgh is really weird because Ottawa and Pittsburgh had some unbelievable playoff games and rivalries in, you know, they met in the playoffs in 07, 08, 2010, 2013. Jason was there for all of them, and now he's going to work for them. Yeah, I think Carlson, yeah, if you want to really stick the dagger into a fan base, put Eric Carlson in blue and white.

So where else does he go if it's not? Can I throw one other team out? And I don't know if it works, but Detroit. Like, I, man, I tell you, I am so interested to see what Detroit does because I, I, I'm not sure I've ever seen a team with this kind of vibe around it where, I mean, the rebuild has been going on for, what, six years now? Steve Iserman has not been there for all of it, but he's been there for a while now. And the progress just seems to be minimal. Another year of being sellers at the deadline, you know, they had that two-game series with Ottawa this year and then got their doors kicked

in both games, immediately go into sell mode. Any other fan base, you feel like there would be a lot of impatience. And Detroit is a great classic traditional fan base where a lot of times you'd say there's not a lot of patience, but it's Steve Eiserman. And every time that I even nod towards suggesting that maybe it's time for Steve Eisman

to pick up the pace a little bit here, maybe it's time to see some progress. Detroit fans, absolutely, the faith that they seem to have in this guy is just, they are all in on the Steve Eisman plan and if he tells them it's got it you know that that it's going to be five more years then they will ride for five more years

but yeah I mean I think this year is the year they need they need to be in the playoffs this year like they like or at least what's their path to get there but don't you think Buffalo Ottawa and Detroit are in the same bucket yeah in terms and though you also feel like Buffalo might be a touch ahead of the other two

and Ottawa might be a touch ahead of Detroit yeah or am I wrong on that I'm I might say Buffalo more than a touch ahead, but yeah, I think you've got the order. You know what I mean? Like, so if all of them are going into this offseason with the idea, we got to take a step for and get into the playoffs, that's all well and fine. There will, one of the eight teams will be out of the playoffs. I don't think three.

I agree. And that's with, you know, Pittsburgh has a mandate to get back into the playoffs. So, I mean, that's another team. I think Washington is taking the step back. But that's another team that's in there. There's not going to be enough chairs left when the music stops. And you're right. If we just said Buffalo, then Ottawa, then Detroit, they go and add in there, Carlson,

or Alex DeBrickett. That's another, you know, name they've been linked to as far as the people from the outside saying this would make sense. What I was saying, though, is I don't think Detroit is a playoff team. And for all those reasons you just said. Yeah. But I think if they missed the playoffs again this year, that's, to me, it feels like that's, when the heat turns up a little. Like right now, everyone's like,

yeah, we're okay, we're still building. If it was any other GM or any other team, I feel like the heat would already be there. It just feels like this is Steve Eiserman in Detroit. It's not, and it's not just that he's the franchise icon, because we saw, you know, Carolina ran out of patience with Ron Francis and, you know, that sort of thing.

But he's the franchise icon who did it somewhere else. Right. And then came in and it's like they're ready to go. You're looking at Twitter. I'm looking because Danielle, our producers sent us a note because it's, as you know, these things are fluid. Okay. Not a huge trade, but a trade.

The Chicago Blackhawks have acquired Josh Bailey and a second round pick in, oh, 2026. So a second round pick in Josh Bailey from the Islanders for futures. Right. So that's the salary. So, and again, Chicago has been pretty, they, they, I mean, they're a team that they got Nick Falino now for another year at four million. What does Josh Bailey have left? Five million cap hit and one year left on his deal, according to Scott Powers. So, Josh Billy is one of those guys that you look at the Islanders' all-time games played list, right?

And he's like right up there. He's like more games than a lot of guys. But here we go, right? Teams are trying to move ahead of July 1st. What can I move out? Kyle Davidson did everything short of like on Furl a sign last night where he said like, yes, we are open. We will take. And this is exactly.

the sort of deal that you make. I mean, the Taylor Hall one was the obvious one. You get somebody with short term. You're not locking yourself in for a while. You got Connor Bredard. Now, he's got to have some guys to play with it. He's got to have some guys to learn from how to be an NHL or you can't just surround him with the same roster you had last year.

And you get an asset. You get cap space. You spend cap space that you have a ton of. I mean, they need to get to the floor before they're worried about the ceiling. That makes perfect sense. And, you know, for the Islanders, it always hurts to have to pay to get out from contracts. But a second round pick to get out from $5 million is not bad considering what we've seen other teams pay over the years. Yeah.

Real quick, let's do one mailbag question here. A reminder you can reach us at the Athletic Hockey Show at gmail.com. Can also leave us a voicemail? 845445-85-85-85-85-85-85. This is from Jason. Last week, of course, we had the Hall of Fame induction ceremony. Three goalies go in. Pierre Turgeon goes in.

Jason wants to know, why is Keith Kachuk? Not in the Hall of Fame. 500 goals, 1,000 points, 1,200 games, et cetera. Good international player. Why is Keith Kachuk not in the Hall of Fame for you guys? I think he's got a solid case. And in fact, I would say, this is probably the first time where I'd say, I feel like he's more likely than not to go in.

Pierre Turgeon was the guy that I looked at. Because the argument for Keith Kichuk that a lot of people would say is, look at the goal scored list. Everybody who's ahead of him who's eligible is in the Hall of Fame. He's the all-time leading goal score who's not in the Hall of Fame who's eligible. Pierre Turgeon was the all-time reading points guy. And my argument with Pierre Turgeon was if you put him in, then the next guy on the list is Jeremy Roanick. If it's not, if Jeremy Roanick goes in, then we're down to Vince Danfuss.

And I can't do it. There's Bernie Nichols, I want to say, is the other guy. Somebody's got to be that guy. Right. We can't just keep going down the list, put everyone in. I want to say if Kachuk goes in, it might be Pat for Beak might be the next guy on the list. So

you know, his argument against Keith Kichuk, his numbers are very good. They're not slam dunk territory. He doesn't have a lot of the all-star selections. It was kind of a stat compiler. It was kind of a statler. Like if you play long enough at a pretty good level, you're going to have a lot of

stats. Except that he wasn't, you know, not at that like Patrick Marlowe or even Pure Turgeon level. Like he had a few years where he was near the top of the league and goals. Also, I mean, just, just, I'm not sure there's there have been many players

who've ever had been as good as Keith Kachuk without any playoff success at all. I mean, I don't know. Well, he went to Atlanta. Yeah, that he was ever out of the most successful run in franchise history. Exactly. How could you do that?

He never got out of the second round, I want to say, but that doesn't seem to be something that gets held against, you know, guys like that. Well, even Pierre Turgeon. Did Pierre Turgeon ever get, oh, I guess one year with the Islanders? Oh, no, he didn't even play that. He wasn't, yeah, he didn't play. I don't think Pierre Turgeon or maybe one of those St.

Pierre Turgeonne bounced around so much that it's hard to say. So anyways, I didn't think Pierre Turgeon belonged in, but he's in. And Keith Kachuk feels like a comparable. And I think Keith Kachukes probably has a stronger case. And even though it has nothing to do with what he did on the ice, having Matthew and Brady be front and center doesn't hurt. It doesn't hurt Keith Kachuk's case. I think he does get in at this point. But it is a question where the pipeline, the Hall of Fame pipeline, gets,

pretty crowded. This year was the last year for a while, we think, where there were going to be a lot of open spaces. They did some very interesting things with who they put in. So, do you think Kachuk's case is better than Rob Bremdmore? Yes. Yeah. I don't, I think Rod Bremdmore's case is oversold. And I know that that's frustrating to Carolina fans. I'm, I, to me, this is, I remember 10 years ago when I was at Grantland. And this was when Marion Hosa was winding down. And everybody was writing pieces about Marion Hose is saying first ballot Hall of Famer. As soon as he's done, he's in the Hall of Fame. And I wrote a piece where I said, are we sure Marion Hose is a first ballot Hall of Famer? And I compared him to a few guys,

including Rod Brindamore. And I said, Rod Brindamor's got 1,200 points. He won two Selkys. And yet you never hear Rod Brindamor mentioned in the hall. And you didn't. I mean, back then, we all, you know, we do our list. He wasn't even in the conversation. Now, obviously, we don't know what the committee does. We don't know if it was being discussed or anything. But back then, I was making the observation that there was just no buzz around this guy. And then over the years, it's built and built to the point where now you get Carolina fans saying like, this guy's a slam dunk. How is this guy not in? To me, he's, I mean, he had the thing with Rod Brindamor, you talk about a compiler. This was a guy played forever. He's a compiler. You know, never,

never a guy was, I mean, forget about all-stars or, you know, getting heart trophy votes. This was a guy who was a second-line center on a good team, even those Carolina teams. You never felt like this guy's a Hall of Fame guy. He has the two Selkees. I think, Brinney's didn't get any votes any other year. So to me, Brindamore is is a guy that like the stats don't, don't explain the impact he had on the sport of hockey and the league. right? Like, I feel like when you think of the hurricanes as a franchise and the moments he's had for that team, like, does importance to the sport of hockey, like I feel like he's more important than his stats suggest. Importance to the sport of hockey, sure. I mean, for example, like Alexander McGilney, being in the obvious one.

I think you can point to McGilney and what he did opening up the door for the Soviet players. There is a difference between importance to hockey and importance to one franchise. That's true. It's perfect. Look, if somebody is important to one franchise, that's why we retire numbers. That's why we do ceremonies. That's why we build statues. That's fair. Do all of that. I mean, Rick Nash is the most important player in the history of the Columbus Blue Jackets.

He doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame. Right. You know, Meku Kovu in Minnesota, you could say the same sort of thing, or you go down the list. And then, you know, I know that the reason I know the Brindamore's case isn't that strong is the weird arguments that, you know, Carolina fans will say, you know, well, he's so important to Carolina. or they break out this, he was so important to the way nutrition and, you know, Rod Brindamore, look, man, we all love the workout videos. He didn't invent exercising.

That's good. Yeah. Like, we're not putting Gary Roberts in the hall of fame. So, you know, let's settle down. And, you know, the two selfies is nice. Yerry Layton has three. I mean, I think if Rod Brindamor gets into the Hall of Fame, to me, it's not like a geek cardinal moment where you just look at it and you go,

that guy does not belong. I'll be okay with it. But I just don't think is, I think. You make a good argument, and I honestly, I like concede to you on these, I think, I think you have a better handle on this than I do. I would just say, Carolina fans, I know you love the guy. And, you know, the other

thing we should say, if people don't know, his coaching, in theory, has nothing to do with his case as a player. Your coaches are in the builder category and they're separate and, you know, you're not supposed to combine them. Maybe it doesn't work out. And look, he's a guy that everyone in the You go into that committee.

I mean, we know, right? It's the old boys club. There's very good chance that at some point he'll have enough support to get in. I will just tell you, as somebody who was a diehard hockey fan for all 20 years of his career, there was never a moment where you were watching any of his teams playing tapping the guy next to you going,

look at that guy. That's a hall of favor. That's second line center. Did he play in that 96 World Cup? Was he ever with Canada in the best on best? That's always a... He may have been on that. That's always a standard to me.

But I think maybe you made an argument for, let's say Brindamore wins his Stanley Cup in Carolina as a head coach. And he stays there another 10, 12 years. I think you make a good argument. Maybe you put him in in the builder category. As weird as that sounds. He built that franchise. As a player and as a coach, if he does that.

I would absolutely. And you know what? I think so. Build a 30-foot high statue to him outside the arena. You know, I'm flying with that. That would be the most chiseled statue in the history. She's not enough. Wait a second. This is, we made it out of marble and yet somehow.

He looks flabby. Yeah. He looks flabby. All right, listen, we got to wrap up the pod. And we're going to do this. Actually, we're going to invite you in to this week in hockey history, yes. Oh. Okay.

So before I give the date, take me back. So for me, the most hurtful trade that ever happened to me as a fan, I was like just my heart ripped out. Patrick Waugh, got traded from Montreal when I, a huge fan of the haves as a kid. gets traded, heart ripped out. For you as a kid, what was the trade that ripped your heart out? So this is going to be, I had a very weird fandom as a kid. So I grew up in Colorado during the glory years of the avalanche. So I was a huge avalanche fan, absolutely despised the Detroit Red Wings, hated them.

I could not hate a team more than I hated the Red Wings when I was a kid. But my favorite player didn't play for the Avalanche. My favorite player was Dominic Khashik. And the reason was I played goalie as a, kid. And when I first started playing goalie, I couldn't afford, my parents couldn't afford gear. So I would go to the thrift store and I'd pick out, I'd find gear. So I was wearing a player cage, not a goalie mask. And then I'm watching on TV. And I don't even know who Dominic Koshik is. And I'm like, this guy's wearing the same shitty mask as me from Goodwill. I love this guy.

He's my new favorite goalie. I didn't even know he was good at all playing for the Sabres. And heartbreaking when they lost to the stars in the Stanley Cup final. So I was a huge Dominic Khashik guy, but I'm an Aves fan who hates the Red Wings. When he went to Detroit, it absolutely destroyed me. I couldn't do it. And then he wins a cup, but I couldn't even be happy about it. Like, I wanted Hachuk to win a cup so bad. And then I couldn't even enjoy him winning his cup because... I love the idea of like a young goaltender loving Dominic hat.

Because, you know, they always say like when you've got kids, like whatever you tell them is forbidden. They will seek out. And you can just picture like goalie coaches being like, all right, kids, do you know, Dominic Hasick, don't do any of that stuff. Don't do what that guy does. don't be like him. Right. Young Jesse Grange going home and like sneaking on to like YouTube and like downloading

little highlight videos of Dominic Hassi. Yeah. So that was the one that ripped your heart out. Patrick Gwa. And the reason why I do this, we take you back to June 28th, 1994. It's the NHL draft. Hartford. In Hartford, the whalers are, they take Chris Pronger and it's a big, no, that wasn't

the year. They took Jeff O'Neill when they had the draft at home. Anyway, long story short, young. Sean's favorite player, Wendell Clark, is traded the Quebec. I want you to take the listeners back to how you react.

How'd you find out about that? It's funny. I don't actually remember. You've blocked it out the trauma. Finding out. But I mean, back then, you know, no Twitter,

no nothing. Like, I mean, I probably found out by somebody telling me coming home and being told, like, hey,

this, this trade has been. You must have thought it was a prank. I do remember that there were, uh, there was a report on the radio. This is back when we had the all support station

Toronto was relatively new. And I don't remember maybe it. Maybe it was Howard Berger or somebody like that had said, I talked to Cliff Fletcher and he said that something is, he basically had told him, keep your eyes open. You're going to want to be ready because we're going to do something really big. And it was a devastating trade for lead fans.

I mean, we just finished talking about how much Carolina fans love Rod Brandenabore. Look, Wendell Clark doesn't belong in the Hockey Hall of Fame. but if there's a Toronto Maple Leaf Hall of Fame for fans of my age, it's Wendell Clark first ballot. This was the most entertaining, most beloved player that we've ever had. And to see that trade, especially back then, right? I mean, they get Matt Sundee.

In hindsight, this was an absolute steal of a trade for the Toronto Maple Leafs. But they've just, remember, they've been terrible for years. Wendell has just led them to the conference final two years in a row. and now you're trading him for some 20-something swede who's got a high flow. Oh, you see fancy and he scores by. Don Cherry almost had an aneurysm when this trade went down. And I don't remember where I was when I found out, but there are two things that I remember about that.

First of all is in August, you want to talk about how beloved the player is. They had a rally at City Hall to say goodbye to Wendell Clark. And I went with my friend, and it was at Alexander. Frue played the music. I mean, there's thousands of us there. They brought him up on stage. Tide Omios there. He wasn't on the Leafs at the time.

But, you know, I mean, it was just this outpouring of a good buy for a guy who turned out was going to be back a year later. But, you know, we didn't know that at the time. The other thing I will say, and the reason that I remembered it was Hartford, go back. Somebody, somebody, I hope it's still there, uploaded the moment on YouTube where this trade is announced on the floor. this gets out. And again, there's no insiders to spoil it. So nobody knows what's happening. And they get up there and they announce the trade and like each piece. It was three players on each side. There's a draft pick on each side. And I think Wendell Clark's the last name that they announced. And you can just hear the crowd, wooing and awing after each name. And then they say Matt Sundeen and obviously Hartford fans, they know the Nordic's, they go ooh. And then when they announced Wendell Clark, the reaction in Hartford of just like, holy, they. They. They know, they know, they know the Nordic's. They go, ooh. And then when they announced Wendell Clark, the reaction in Hartford of just like, holy, they. They. They. They. They. They. They just traded the Toronto Maple Leafs just traded

a Wendell Clark even in Hartford. They knew that this was a really big moment and boy, that ripped my heart out. Yeah. No, I think everybody as a fan, you have the one trade that really kind of just gets at you and yeah, I knew that would, I wasn't trying to end

on a bad note. I just, that was the way it worked out. We got to ride scooters to the arena to get the moot to get the vibes back up. We're going to head back now for I'm just going to go sit in the dark in my room for a while. stare into the middle distance. Listen, next year will be the 30-year anniversary of that trade.

Isn't that crazy? That's, yeah, 30 years next year. All right, that puts a wrap on this Thursday edition of the pod. Listen, hopefully we don't have any travel stories to write about on our way home here. I guess for you, what was it, Nashville to Vegas is what? Two hour flight? It's like two to, almost three. Two hours, 45 minutes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Direct everywhere in Vegas, I'm lucky. Sean, are they routing you through Seattle to get home? Yeah, I'm going through, I don't know, Melbourne. Have you got to see it? Seems kind of strange, but we'll give a shot. Anytime you book in a flight and you see the plus one day. Oh, yeah.

That's bad news. I'm on a submarine at some point, but I think it's going to be okay. Oh, my God. We're going to end it there. All right. We want to thank everybody for listening to the Thursday pod here live from Nashville. And speaking of pots from Nashville. Friday, Corey Prudman, Max Boltman,

will have a complete recap of the second day of the draft, so make sure you download that. Any questions? As always, email us to The Athletic Hockey Show at gmail.com. Leave us a voicemail 8454-45. 8459. Right now, we get a one-year subscription to the Athletic for a dollar a month or 12 months. When you visit theathletic.com slash hockey show.