The Athletic Hockey Show - NHL mourns loss of Columbus Blue Jacket Matiss Kivlenieks, Tampa Bay Lightning look to sweep Montreal Canadiens in Stanley Cup Final. Mark Lazerus discusses Jonathan Toews comeback, Duncan Keith trade request and sexual assault investigation in Chicago.

Episode Date: July 5, 2021

On the Monday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show, Ian Mendes and Hailey Salvian discuss the shocking news from the Columbus Blue Jackets, that goalie Matiss Kivlenieks has passed away at the age of 24.Ian and Hailey take a look at the Stanley Cup Final, with the Tampa Bay Lighting poised to sweep the Montreal Canadiens, despite the wishes of Tampa Bay mayor Jane Castor. Mendes and Salvian discuss lineup changes for Montreal and Conn Smythe trophy contenders for Tampa Bay.Mark Lazerus from the Athletic Chicago joins the show to discuss his exclusive interview with Hawks captain Jonathan Toews on his return to play from his year long injury, Duncan Keith's trade request to the Pacific North West and the ongoing sexual assault investigation within the Chicago Blackhawks organization. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We're back for another edition of the Athletic Hockey Show, Ian Mendez, Haley, Salvean, as always, to launch you into another new week. Ahead on this show, our Chicago beatwriter Mark Lazarus will stop by and discuss the latest all about the Blackhawks abuse allegations, his story with Jonathan Taves and his return to the ice last week, and all the trade rumors swirling around Duncan Keith. So Chicago is certainly an interesting place these days, and Mark Lazarus drops by to chat all things Blackhawks with us. The Tampa Lightning have the Montreal Canadiens

on the ropes in the Stanley Cup final, but the mayor in Tampa is kind of pulling for a lightning loss in game four. We'll talk about that, whether or not she's messing with the hockey gods and karma by suggesting that. And as always, we'll wrap up the show with a little multiple choice

madness. But first, Haley, I got to tell you, I think a lot of us woke up today on Monday, the 5th of July, with some very sobering news and some sad news. Coming from Columbus, or technically from the state of Michigan, but involving the Columbus Blue Jackets, where their goaltender, 24-year-old Matisse Kivlennox, has died after suffering what the club says is a head injury in a fall.

I know our Columbus beat reporter Aaron Portsline has been covering this story today. And the police in Michigan where Kiv Lennox was on the 4th of July, police there have said that essentially there was an incident, Haley, where the Blue Jackets goaltender was fleeing a hot tub. So there's a handful of people that were inside a hot tub on the 4th of July. There was some sort of fireworks malfunction that forced that group out of the hot tub. And during that commotion, according to the police there, Haley, Kivlennox is said to have slipped and fallen, hit his head on concrete and, you know, unfortunately, tragically passing away from that, an autopsy will be performed later today. But boy, Haley, when you wake up to news like that,

It really leaves like the pit in your stomach or the lump in your throat. Yeah, especially when you think of how many people were maybe doing something similar on the 4th of July or here in Canada on Canada Day. How many people were in a hot tub in their backyard at the beach on a dock at the cottage? You know, this is, it's really tragic and it's something that it could have happened to anybody. and it's just a really difficult thing to wake up to. He's 24 years old. You hear everything that's been coming out this morning from teammates, from the monsters, from the blue jackets.

Every single thing that I've seen about Matthias has been about his smile and about how great of a person he was. You know, people aren't talking about his save percentage, although it was included in some press releases, but, you know, the overarching theme here is not, you know, look at this gifted athlete. It was like, this was a great person. He had a wonderful smile and he loved what he did every day. And it's really sad. And, you know, as you go through the news, there's been a lot of statements. There's been a lot of tweets, a lot of stuff sent out today. The Blue Jackets president of hockey operations John Davidson said Kivie was an outstanding young man who greeted every day and everyone with a smile

and the impact he had during his four years with our organization will not be forgotten. General manager, Yarmal Kekalinen, obviously called the news, tragic, shocking, and so very sad. He said life is so precious and can be so fragile. Hug your loved ones today.

Rest in peace, Matthias, you will be dearly missed. And Commissioner Gary Bettman made a statement today as well. Again, speaking about his love for life and passion of the game will be deeply missed by everyone who is fortunate enough to have him as a teammate and a friend. So a lot of similar language, just talking about how great of a person, Matthias was. And it's just a, it's a really sad day. And I think Kekhalin probably said it best,

you know, hug your loved ones, because something like this just shows you how fragile life can be. It's really sad. Yeah. And you know, Haley, it's really remarkable. And the fragility of life really comes into play here. Kivlennox was the goalie for Latvia, not what, six weeks ago, eight weeks ago when they pulled off a stunning upset of Team Canada at the World Championships, right? It's the first time Latvia had beaten Canada on that stage in that moment. And, you know, Kiv Lennox was such a big part of it. And it's just, it's so sad.

And like you said, you read all those, you know, those statements from around the league. I've seen Nick Falino and Nathan Kirby and some others tweeting out. Gerby had a great, you know, poignant photo being on the ice with his kid with Kiv Lennox. And it's just, you know, you know what it really does take me back to. And I want to say if it, and I want to say it was during the Stanley Cup final as well. Because I remember being in Pittsburgh, Haley, when the Vancouver Canucks announced that Luke Bordon had died in a motorcycle accident. And if it wasn't in the Stanley Cup final, I apologize, it might have been like, I was in Pittsburgh. and I just know I was covering a deep playoff run.

And it was so jarring. And you're just, because I think there's always this feeling, especially with young athletes, right? You're in your 20s. There's kind of a feeling of invincibility that surrounds young athletes. And to see their lives take it away in such a senseless way in such a tragic way, it is. I really do appreciate the Yarmou Kekhalainen statement today, Haley, where he says, you don't know essentially what tomorrow will bring.

Hug your loved ones because when athletes can have their lives taken away from them like this, it shows you the cruelty of life, the unfairness of life, the randomness of life, that sometimes things are just well beyond our control. And it really truly is a reminder, not that we need one at this particular juncture in the world with everything that's going on. but the understanding of every day is a gift. It really is. And if you don't take that moment to appreciate when your friends and family

and people around you are happy and healthy, it can be a real tough lesson on a day like this. Yeah, you know, this is, it's a difficult morning, I think, for a lot of people. Again, like I said, of course, this is professional athlete. and of course this is, you know, a very public-facing thing. But again, this is, you know, a firework malfunction, a fallout of a hot tub. This is something that could happen to anybody. And it does happen to people.

You know, we see the statistics. You know, these are things that it doesn't matter if you're an athlete, if you're young, if you're older. These are things that can happen. So it just, I think it puts everything into perspective. and I think you kind of put it all really well there, Ian. It just kind of, again, it just puts everything into perspective for you. And, you know, just my condolences, our condolences,

go out to his family and everyone that played with him in the Blue Jackets organization. It's a difficult Monday morning for sure. Yeah, that's well said. And I'd like to echo what you just said, Haley, you know, on behalf of all of us here with the athletic and the athletic hockey show, just our deepest sympathy and thoughts going out to, the Kivlennox family, the Blue Jackets family, anybody that he's touched in the kind of the Latvian hockey world as well.

And, you know, we're thinking about the family, and we're certainly knowing that when game four, the Stanley Cup final occurs later on Monday, you just know that National Hockey League will take a moment of silence before that game because you can tell from the words of Commissioner Gary Batman today, this was sudden, this was tragic. And I think everybody in the hockey world will take a moment on Monday to reflect upon that.

And why don't we take a moment when we come back on the other side, we'll get you all set for game four of the Stanley Cup final. And as we turn our attention to a game four of the Stanley Cup final, the Tampa Lightning have an opportunity, Haley, to close out the series tonight with a sweep. It would be the first sweep in the Stanley Cup final since the Red Wings took out Washington in four straight in 1998. So boy, we've got almost a quarter century between sweeps in the cup final. Tampa on the doorstep of that tonight. And I think as a result, the Montreal Canadians, making maybe a couple of adjustments tonight. I think it's interesting. Aliya's spirit. Kotkinemi appears to be a healthy scratch. Based on the way they skated on Monday, Kotkinemi was wearing the gray sweater. Looks like he's out and Jake Evans going to draw back in.

Do you think that any of this could potentially give the habs of spark or is this a little kind of too little too late here? Yeah, I think I can understand people saying it's a little bit a little bit too little too late. But I did see an interesting tweet from Arpin, our friend of the show, Arpin Bassey, who covers the Canadians for the athletic. And he said, you know, people are saying too little, too late about these changes. But, you know, do you make changes after game two? That's probably too soon.

Game two was not a bad game by the Montreal Canadians by any means. You're just playing against the Tampa Bay Lightning. So they didn't make the change for game three. then game three obviously didn't go their way. So now this is, you're making the change in a must-win game for game four. I don't know if it's going to work. I don't know what would work to go up against Tampa Bay's goal-tending, their top-end talent, their incredible depth that they have.

But it is interesting. It looks like Dominic Dusharm said that he wanted to go with a couple of combos, or they didn't want to undo their duos of Deno Gallagher and the duo of Cawfield and Suzuki. and they like their fourth line. So the only changes in their mind that they could make are the ones that we're seeing with Evans going in and Cochnemi coming out. So it looks like they're really committed to, again,

the Gallagher-Den-O combo, the Caulfield Suzuki combo, and they like their fourth line. So we'll see if these moves here work for the Montreal Canadians and we'll see if they can push it to game five. You know, with all these changes, I thought it was almost hilarious that at one point on the weekend, you saw a, and I'm going to preface this by saying it was a small percentage of people. But there were some people saying, you know, the Hab should go to Jake Allen. That I just think Kerry Price looked stale.

They need to shake it up. And I'm like, wow. Like, what a difference a week makes, right? How it turns so quickly. Yeah. And I think that was, just to me, I thought that was a ridiculous storyline. I understand the thinking of we need to change things up. Haley, how could you even suggest putting Jake Allen in for Cary Price at this stage of the game?

Yeah, I think it's because maybe Cary Price has looked human and it looks like he's come down to Earth in comparison to what he was doing in the first three rounds of the Stanley Cup playoffs. but, you know, he hasn't been bad. You've got to get a save, obviously, if you're going to win these games. But I just, I don't know what taking Carrie Price out is going to do. It's the Stanley Cup finals. There's no need, you don't have to arrest a guy in the Stanley Cup finals. This is what they play for. It's Carrie Price.

It's just funny we are talking about how he's, like, going to be one of the best goalie, going to go down as the best goalie ever. put him on Mount Rushmore or whatever, talking about how he's a god and now it's like, take him out, how it changes so quickly. But I don't think if I was a coach, I would take Carrie Price out of the net. No, it seems like, again, it seemed like a vocal minority that was yelling at that. But I think it all comes down to when we look back and we need to preface this. Look, the series isn't over.

It's three nothing. Stranger things have happened. But I think when you look back at this series, the one moment in time, that's going to be burned in everyone's minds collectively for the rest of time. Is that Blake Coleman goal at the end of the second period in game two? Because Haley, the Habs were owning that game. It was Ropa Dope. And it was like if they could have just gotten out of that period, we'll never know what would

have happened. But is it fair to say as we sit here now, that series was lost in game two or the Canadians are in this predicament because of game two? Yeah, I mean, it's tough because, as I was saying before, after game two, like the Habs had a really good game. Their performance was really strong. It just that goal and everything that happened after got away from them. But I don't think you can look at the way the Habs played in game two and said, like we were just saying with these changes, we need to make massive changes to our lineup because they had such a good performance in game too. So I don't know if it was lost again because they played so well.

but I think you can maybe argue that some of the air was sucked out, that a lot of the momentum you can argue if it's a thing or not. Some people say momentum doesn't matter. Some people say it's everything. But that goal was, I guess, a spark plug for lack of a better word for Tampa. And again, if that hadn't have happened, if Blake Coleman hadn't have scored that goal, if the HABs would have won game two,

then you're going back home to the Bell Center with tied one game. game apiece against the former Stanley Cup champions. So that probably gives you a ton of confidence. It gives everyone up and down the lineup confidence, gives your goalie confidence. So, you know, I can see where you're coming from saying, was it lost there because of the way that, look, it sounds like I'm being captain obvious here, but the series being tied one-one is a lot better than being down to nothing, right? So I think you can pinpoint that as a specific moment. I don't know if you would say that it was completely lost there, but I get where you're, like I get what you're saying with that.

Like I'm convincing myself that it's true. But I don't know. I guess I can see that, yeah. You know, what I think about too with that goal from Coleman, Haley, this guy is going to be an unrestricted free agent in a couple of weeks. Blake Coleman's 29 years old. And I think if you look back in the last two years, there's a lot of people who believe like he was, and in fact, John Cooper said that both Barclay Gujar and Blake Coleman, he said

they were the final pieces of the puzzle for us. Like, they were the final pieces. So it's clear Coleman could potentially cash in this summer. He's in the last year of his deal. He made $1.8 million this year. He's 29 years old. Like, I kind of feel like this guy could double that salary on the free agent market, don't you? Because I think he can, he can go in and say, look, I am the prototypical middle six forward. I've got two Stanley Cup rings, potentially my back pocket. I was the missing piece for Tampa. Like, don't, if you're some team out there that feel, and Paging Toronto,

that feels like you're on the precipice of winning, but you just need that missing element, wouldn't you go, wouldn't you go big after Blake Coleman this summer? I think, you know, if we all agree that the NHL is a copycat league and you see Tampa Bay have that success with those puzzle pieces, you're probably going to look for pieces that are similar, if not the piece, right? I do think there might be some buyers, not buyers, remorse, but, you know, do you really want to go out and spend a lot of money on a guy who's going to turn 30 next season? And I think it needs to be said, like, he's had his success with Tampa Bay. Like, that's not just a

universal puzzle piece. I mean, the lightning are a different beast as we're seeing through these playoffs, right? So what works for the lightning, I don't know if you can just put that piece in in Toronto, because Toronto doesn't look like Tampa Bay or Ottawa, etc. So I don't know if it's a culture thing, it's a fit thing, it's the way that the lineup goes up and down. Because that line's been really great. Him and Barclay Gudrow, I think I saw Joe Smith had a piece where they called them the grind line. Just like a really, really important piece of what Tampa's doing. So I think a team would be interested in what he brings to the table.

I just don't know if it's going to be this like immediate fix for a team just like adding one of the pieces that Tampa had because, you know, if all these teams were close to being what Tampa Bay would is, wouldn't they be in the final or a little bit closer to where Tampa is right now? Yeah, but you got to remember, like, Tampa was a team that prior to getting Blake Coleman, what was the reputation on the Lightning? Yeah, they couldn't get it done. They couldn't get over the hump. And we're all give the Lightning some credit. And Julian Breezeball was the general manager at this stage because you take it over for Steve Eisenman, is they didn't blow it up. Like they, like when they got swept by Columbus, they could have fired John Cooper. They could have traded one of Stamcoast, Hedman, Kucheroff, Point. Like, whoever you want to put in, that list. Vasilevsky, they did it. They kept it together, but then they went out and tinkered. They're like, we'll give up a first round pick for Blake Coleman and Berkeley Gujar. And I think, so that's the value of a guy like Coleman, is that I think, yeah, I know what you're saying that,

okay, the guy went in, it's not like he went to Buffalo and turned around the Sabres. Like, I understand that point. But there's also something to be said that Tampa couldn't get it done until they got them into the picture. And if you're Toronto, if you're, I don't know who else you, I guess Winnipeg goes into that mix, like who else has been kind of knocking on the door the last few years, but never. Colorado. Yeah, absolutely. You know what? There's the one too. Colorado is a great, great example. But they thought they addressed that with Nazim Cadry, right? Like, that's kind of what the apps were trying to do. So I do think that there's some value to it. Like, I don't know, Like I, do you think it's out of the realm of possibility that Blake Coleman doubles his salary?

He's making 1.8. Do you think it's out of the realm it gets to 3.5 or do you think that's a touch high? It's tough because we're in this flat cap right now, right? And we're seeing, well, I think we're going to have to get through this period. Obviously see what happens with the Stanley Cup final. We're going to have to get through the Seattle expansion draft to really see how much money these teams are working with. I think there's a lot of teams who are either going to give up assets to get a big contract off the table or just they're going to pray to the hockey gods that somebody with a big contract gets taken by the Cracken. Although Seattle, you know, I think part of what is going to make them a good organization is that they're going to be smart with their cap and smart with their selections.

They've invested so much in their analytics and all their scouting departments that I don't know if they're just going to go and grab everyone's big contracts. but through the trade deadline, or not the trade deadline, excuse me, but through trades that are going to be ongoing through up until free agency, like I just don't know how much money some of these teams are working with. But we know that Tampa's over the cap right now. So I don't know if it's realistic to think that Blake Coleman would be back in Tampa, considering they are the famous, not the famous story, but the big story right now is that they're way of,

over the cap during the Stanley Cup playoffs here. I don't know. I just don't know if your team, do you want to commit almost $4 million to a 30-year-old depth forward? Like in the flat cap era, because it's different because Zach Hyman has scored more. He's been with the organization longer, but, you know, and it's way more money than almost 4 million, but we're seeing that Toronto Maple Leafs apparently are out on Zach Hyman, according to James Myrtle, it's looking increasingly unlikely that they're not going to be able to afford

Zach Hyman because he's going to be around $5,6.6 million. And if we're seeing teams who don't want a guy like Zach Hyman for that price, I don't know. I think you and I, I'm overthinking Blake Coleman and you are oversimplifying Blake Coleman. Like, sign Blake Coleman and you're going to win a Stanley Cup. And I'm like, oh, maybe, but I'm like the guy from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, like staring at the board, trying to explain what's going on in their head, overcomplicating it. I think the real recipe, if you want to win is Pat Maroon. That's a good point.

Patrick Maroon, three straight cups. Corey Perry, Perry's third Stanley Cup final in a row? Perry's second. It was Dallas, right? Dallas last year. So second. Yeah, but you're right. Patrick Maroon is on the precipice, Haley, becoming the first player since those great Islanders teams of the early 80s to win a Stanley Cup in three straight years.

Like, nobody has done three straight Stanley Cups as a player since the Islanders. So you're right. Patrick Maroon is absolutely, it could be one of those types of missing players. Look. I saw this argument on Twitter, and this is maybe a tangent here, because I know we were talking about Blake Coleman. I'm all over the place today. It's because I'm still on vacation, Ian, technically. It's my vacation brain. But I saw this debate on Twitter.

It was like, would you rather make $12 million in your career and win three Stanley Cups or make like $25 million and never win? I know. What would you want? So, okay, so what you're asking, okay, let's throw this out there right now, okay? basically what you're asking me is, would you rather be Patrick Maroon or Joe Thornton? Right? Like, would you rather be Patrick Maroon or Joe Thornton? Patrick Maroon is on the verge of his third straight Stanley Cup.

But let's agree here. He's a role player, right? Like he's a role guy. Joe Thornton is headed to the Hall of Fame, one of the best centermen of the 21st century, an assist machine. You know, a heart trophy winner, a guy that was made a ton of money. Made a ton of money. So essentially, I think the way the question is, is would you rather be Patrick Maroon or Joe Thornton? And I think I'd rather be Joe Thornton.

And I know that that might not come across and people might say like that cerebral. I'd rather win. And I get that. But I think there's something to be said for being one of the greatest of all time. For sure. And it's a team sport. Like I don't hold it on Joe Thornton that he'd, didn't win the Stanley Cup.

Yeah. Like, so anyway, that's just me. Like I, I think I would rather be Joe Thornton, get into the Hall of Fame, kind of,

you know, obviously the money is a factor too. I'm not going to lie, but I think there's something to be said for being one of the greatest of all time in your generation, rather than being a smaller part of a greater team. But I know that that kind of,

that probably goes against a lot of thinking in hockey culture, right? I bet you a lot of listeners would say, I'd rather be Patrick Maroon. And I totally get that. I think I'd rather be Thornton. What about you? Yeah.

Well, it's interesting because I saw some of the responses to, I don't even, I don't remember where I saw this over the weekend. But I think a lot of their responses were like, if you think that they're saying they want the cups, like you don't know what these players' motivations are. Like they're going to go for the money. So it's interesting. I think it's, you know, people are pretty split 50-50 from at least some of the responses that I scrolled through.

I don't know, you know, because I agree with everything you're saying, but like look at Jason Spetsa taking, he was like, I'll take under league minimum if I could to win a Stanley Cup with the Toronto Maple Leafs right now. So he's prioritizing the low contract for a cup, which would be kind of like Pat Maroon. Even Joe Thornton's on this kind of, I mean, quest for the cup signing. in Toronto for a smaller ticket. Jerome McGinla went on the quest for a cup too,

like everywhere that he signed to try to win a Stanley Cup. Like, but again, these guys are doing this after they've made their money. Exactly. Like, this isn't after your first, this isn't after your ELC taking like the smallest deal possible. You're making millions of dollars. And then at the end of your career, you're saying, okay, I'll start to make a little bit less because I'm already a millionaire.

so I could win a Stanley Cup. So it's difficult. I think one of the only players who's like on a value deal. I mean, I don't know. It's not the only players, but the one that comes front of mind, obviously the Boston Bruins, like a lot of those guys are probably making under

what their actual value would be on the open market for sure. But I mean, Sidney Crosby just always signed for 8.5, which is still a pretty big ticket, but considering what he could have been making, I think Crosby taking that kind of contract is him saying, let's keep the band together. Yeah, Boston's done it.

I don't know. Like for me personally, I think I would probably be Joe Thornton as well. Like, who am I kidding? Like hockey hall of fame, you're a millionaire, you're one of the greatest of all time. You don't have the Stanley Cups,

which is probably something like you hear from guys. Like that's the one thing that they've always, wanted. I mean, even for coaches, Darrell Sutter won two cups with the LA Kings. In the 2004, Stanley Cup final loss still haunts this man. And he has two cups. So I don't think we can discredit the hunt for winning a championship in the NHL. But if you're asking me, I'm going with the money. But I also don't have the player's mindset. I'm just sitting here. Totally. Yeah, no, I think it's a really, it's really, it's really, It's a really fun debate. It's a really cool kind of question to toss out because I think you can see both sides of the argument. Now, I got to ask you about this. Usually, Haley, I hate when politicians and mayors jump into the, you know, the playoff world, right? Like, you get the mayor in one city say, like, hey, if we lose, we send you like a ton of smoked meat, like, you know, or, you know, Philadelphia. Or if we lose, we'll send you cheese steaks. You know the drill, right? We all get tired of the

mayor wearing the other team's jersey and all that stuff. But there's actually something that I think is rather newsworthy involving a mayor. We're going to roll the clip here in a second. I'll set the scene for you. Tampa's mayor, so the mayor in Tampa is a woman named Jane Castor. Have a list of the Jane Castor. I believe this was at a 4th of July media availability talking about things going on in Tampa.

And somebody asked the mayor if it would be ideal if the lightning would lose game four on Monday so they could come back to the Amali Arena and win the Stanley Cup in front of the home crowd in Tampa later this week. Have a listen. Here's Tampa Mayor Jane Castor. Here's what we would like. What we would like is for the lightning to take it a little bit easy to give the Canadians just the smallest break, allow them to win one at home and then bring it back to the Amelie Arena for the final and the winning of the Stanley Cup. But we don't want to get ahead of ourselves, but they are playing some amazing, amazing hockey. Okay, Haley, time for us to weigh in on this.

How do we feel about the mayor of Tampa kind of low-key rooting against the lightning so that they could win the Stanley Cup at home? I feel like this might anger the hockey gods a little bit. I wouldn't want to be messing with this. Yeah, it's some weird bad ju-ju. Yes. Speak my fantasy football. name for any of our TSN,200 listeners.

My fantasy football name was bad juju, and we did not make the playoffs. And I gave myself bad juju. It was a really poor name, poor team. Anyways, I'm totally over it. It's fine. But no, I think, I mean, I think it's funny. Like, it's a funny clip. It's fun.

It's another fun discussion. You might upset the hockey gods a little bit. But, I mean, You can just celebrate. If you win tonight, you celebrate in Montreal, then you fly back to Tampa and you celebrate in Tampa. Like, I don't, this isn't, like, it's teams have won on the road before. Like, this is, it's a weird thing.

I get, but it's COVID. There's only 3,500 fans. It's not like Tampa fans can fly to Montreal to watch Game 4, because tickets are going for like $11,000 and there's not that many people allowed in and the borders close. So I get it, but I just think it's a little bit silly. Like winning a Stanley Cup on the road is not a crazy thing. Just celebrate when they get back.

But do you think part of this is because they won the cup last year, and again, it was in the bubble, but like now you can be a little bit picky, so to speak. Like, you've already won a cup. Like imagine the feeling of being so good that you could choose where you want to win the cup. Like, that's what the lightning have become. They're like, yeah, I can't. I guess we could win in a sweep. But this to me is the stories that the Tampa Lightning are so good that there's a portion

of their fan base that are like, yeah, I'd rather they win it at home. Like imagine being that good that you could choose where you want to win the cup. I do remember one thing. And this is not in defense of the mayor of Tampa. But I do remember one thing that Wayne Gretzky said years ago, although the Lightning would have experienced it last year, they would. would have won the cup in the bubble and it would have just been the team. I remember Wayne Gretzky years ago, Haley, saying, you know, the one thing he wishes

is that he could have experienced one Stanley Cup win on the road. If I'm not mistaken, all four of the cups that he won with Edmonton were at home. They beat the Islanders. They beat the Flyers twice. They beat Boston. I believe they clinched all of them at the old Northlands Coliseum. And I think Gretzky's thinking was the problem, I use air quotes when I say problem, with winning at home is that everybody's on top of you.

The fans are on top of you, the friends and family, everybody's there. And you don't necessarily get to just enjoy it with the 18 skaters, the goalies, the training staff, just you. And I think Wayne always felt like, I just wish we won one on the road so it would just be us. The lightning, though, they kind of got that last year, right? Like Tampa got that last year in the bubble. So I could get why maybe you want to win it in front of a crazy package. house in Tampa. Like I do understand the mentality. I just wouldn't want to put that out there publicly. That's all. No, and I totally get it too. It's obviously going to be more fun if you can win at home.

Maybe they're just getting a little bit greedy with the bucks winning the Super Bowl at home. And now they're like, let's win the Stanley Cup at home too. And we can just party for a year. So maybe they were like, we had the Super Bowl here, the first year, Tom Brady. We won that trophy. now let's win our back-to-back Stanley Cup here at home and just be obnoxious about it. I don't know. The race got to the World Series too. You know, like it's, yeah, Tampa. That's what we've reached that point where Tampa is the new Boston.

Like is any, I mean, this is like other than Tampa fans, like, are people having fun watch them win again? It's great hockey. But I'm a bit more of like a. But the series has been underwhelming, right? It's just kind of like, okay, they're going to win again. Yeah, I know. It's great. They're all so talented.

Look at how great this team is. They have a good coach. The GM built this team. They have lots of depth. They have top end talent. They have a great goalie. Tampa's great. Okay.

I had more fun cheering for the Nashville Predators in round one. Yeah. My bandwagon. I had, maybe I'm just, maybe I'm just angry because I pick Florida and the Stanley Cup final. We both. Well, we both did. We both had Florida go and deep. It's just kind of, okay, they're really good.

We knew this. And they're winning again. Yeah. Ho-hum. Yeah. Yeah. I need more. All right, Haley, time to bring in our weekly guest.

And you wouldn't have thought the Chicago Blackhawks would be the, maybe the number one team of the news cycle here lately, but that has certainly been the case lately with Duncan Keith, Jonathan Taves, and, of course, the ongoing investigation about the sexual assault allegations. and Mark Lazarus joins us here. And last, first of all, thanks for doing this. And we say this with all seriousness. Boy, oh boy, this has been a really busy news cycle for Chicago at a time when you

would have thought things would be quiet on your front. Yeah, I got it. Me and Scott Powers were talking like, well, Scott had a baby, a new baby in June. And he was going to disappear for paternity leave. And I was going to lay low and hang out with my kids. And sometimes the news gets in the way. And yeah, this is as busy as summer as a, for better and for worse, mostly for worse, that the Blackhawks have had in a long time.

Yeah. And you mentioned Scott Powers and yourself and Katie Strang, the three of you kind of teaming up to write this. So maybe just give our listeners a sense right now, Mark, of what is the latest as we start a new week here in July as it pertains to the independent review and the story around the alleged sexual assaults that may have occurred within the Blackhawks team facilities back in 2010? Yeah, everything's kind of in a holding pattern now with the Blackhawks announcing the internal review from Jenner & Block. The league is content with that for now, that that's the proper way to handle this. The lawsuits are still pending, obviously. There's one lawsuit from a player that alleges Brad Aldrich, a video coach back in 2010 sexually assaulted two players. And then there's another lawsuit that the Blackhawks basically let Brad Aldrich go take another job, give him, quote, positive references.

We're still trying to find those actual positive references, but they certainly didn't get in the way of him getting a job. And three years later, he was convicted of assaulting a minor while a volunteer coaching for a high school hockey team. So it's really serious stuff. It's really bad. I mean, it's going to take a long time for this to play out. The Blackhawks aren't going to end this swiftly in the internal review. We don't know how long that will take.

We don't know how long litigation will take. It's going to drag on for a long time. and it's not a pleasant story to talk about, to write about, to report on. And it's certainly not what the Blackhawks want to be in the news for, but, you know, this is out there and it's going to be out there for a long time. One of the things that Ian and I spoke about last week, Mark, when a lot of this came out was, you know, we gave you and Scott. And, I mean, Katie is, Katie Strang is Katie String. She's a machine. Yeah.

But, you know, she's national and she's investigative. She's enterprise. but you and Scott are beat writers for the Chicago Blackhawks. You have to go through PR. You have to go in the room. You have to see these people on a day-to-day basis. Once things get to normal right now, everything's on Zoom. But can you maybe just contextualize what that is like covering something like this,

knowing how important it is and how this is bigger than hockey while also knowing that you are a hockey writer? Like how difficult is that balance? Well, it's going to be interesting. This is the month where general managers are forward-facing, right? This is where we talk to them. Usually by now, I would have had a one-on-one on the phone with Stan Bowman. There'd be a Zoom call coming up ahead of the expansion draft and the NHL entry draft. We're not going to hear from Stan Bowman.

I can't imagine they're going to put Stan Bowman. For those who haven't been following the story, was reportedly, he was allegedly, I should say, in the room where Paul Vincent brought the allegation. to the brass with Stan Bowman, Al McIsaac, John McDonough, and Gary, the mental skills coach. And the allegations that they just chose not to do anything with it. They chose to sit on that information rather than reported to police. So how do you put Stan Bowman in front of all of us in the media and say, okay, let's talk

about the expansion draft. It's just not going to work. And you're going to have every, and since it's a Zoom call, you're going to have every national reporter on that call. You're going to have, you know, news reporters from Chicago on that call because this is bigger than just sports. I don't know how the Blackhawks handle that. Mark Kelly, the director of scouting, I'm sure, will handle the NHL entry draft stuff. But I don't know how you handle the expansion yet.

You just send out statements from Stan Bowman. These are things that the Hawks PR department are going to have to figure out. As for me, this one's not, I mean, it, look, nobody wants to be reporting on these things. I mean, I honestly don't know how Katie does it. it's mentally taxing the report on this stuff. It's unpleasant. It stays with you at night. The more you hear about it, the more you dig, the more you learn about it. It kind of just sticks in your brain and it's hard to handle. But the people in question, I don't think it's that awkward necessarily to report about because this is something that happened 11 years ago and most of the principles are not really, you know, they're not in the day to day. I think, you know, the summer of 2015 when Patrick Kane was credibly accused of sexual assault. And that's, you know, dragged on that was different. That was the star player of the team and I was writing columns about whether they should trade him or not. And it was like three months of reporting on that. And then being in the room and talking to Patrick Kane that day about hockey stuff and other

things. That was that was a difficult situation. Everyone handled it professionally. I was impressed by how the Blackhawks handled that. This will be different because, you know, it's the front office. It's not players. Like this, I don't know how it's going to play out. I don't know how the next few weeks are going to play out. I don't know what it'll be like. If and when we're back in the locker rooms in September and October, if this will still be the dominant story, if players will be willing to talk about it. I mean, most of the guys in the Blackhawks are 22 years old. They weren't around in 2010. It's Jonathan Taze.

It's Patrick Kane and it's Duncan Keith. The only ones left. And Duncan Keith might not be back next season at this point. So there's not a lot of ties to that team. So as a beat writer, this isn't necessarily uncomfortable to report on. I think it's all fair game. But it's going to affect how the Blackhawks do business, at least. front facing for a while.

Well, and a couple of those names that you mentioned there, Jonathan Taves and Duncan Keith are in the news cycle for other reasons. And let's get into that because you had the exclusive with Jonathan Taves last week, the first time that he was back skating and kind of comfortable speaking to a media member. And maybe you can just walk us through how that interview came to be, how you connected with Jonathan Taves and having the opportunity to tell his story after, I'm sure, what has been a very trying 12-month. for him. Yeah, it's been almost 11 months since we had heard from Taves really publicly.

The Vegas series in the bubble last year. In October, I was able to get in touch with them where he was, when the Blackhawks announced their rebuild, and he gave me some quotes about that and how he was feeling about that. And that story kind of blew up. And that's really the last anyone heard from him until that press releases sent out a little after Christmas, I think it was, saying that, you know, he was dealing with this fatigue and kind of these nebulous symptoms that were tough to pin down and wasn't going to be on the ice. So, and then he obviously didn't play all season. The interview came about, I mean, Taves knew, you don't want to have an interview like this on a Zoom call. You don't want to be answering these kind of questions in a sterile setting like that. I think Taves, I've been covering him for nine years now. I think there's a trust level built up there. It was an easy way to do it.

He sent out his video where he explained things. Then he kind of allowed me to kind of probe deeper. It was great. I was sitting across from a table from him, you know, neither of us wearing a mask. It was so pleasant to talk to somebody one-on-one in person like that. made for a much better interview. And, you know, he's feeling good. I mean, he had a really difficult year.

He was, you know, he's basically acknowledged that he's a COVID long hauler, that, that, or at least that COVID has contributed to him. He, he chucked it up to, you know, 15, 18 years of year-round hockey. And obviously, the amount of games he played during those cup years and the heavy style with which he plays, he thinks his body was just betraying him and then COVID kind of pushed him over the edge. But he feels better now. He's not 100%. He thinks he can get to 100%. And he's not making any guarantees, but he is expecting to play this year.

And Mark, one of the things that you asked Jonathan Taves in that great piece, if you haven't read it, it is in The Athletic, was the timing of this announcement coming so closely to everything that we already discussed with these troubling allegations to come from 2010. Yeah, I mean, and the Blackhawks caught some grief for that. And I don't blame people for looking at this and going, oh, that's convenient. here's a good news story in the middle of all this horrible news. But when was going to be a good time?

Taves has been back in Chicago for a couple of weeks now, skating in a public rink. He's one maybe the most famous athlete in the city. He's going to get recognized. People are going to realize, oh, he's back. So then there's going to start rumors flying. So he got to get out in front of that. He was planning on doing this for a couple of weeks. If you do it last week, it looks bad.

If you do it next week, it looks bad. If you do it right before training camp, it looks bad. Like I said, the, the alley, the alley. And the lawsuits are not going away. So whenever Taves dropped this news, it was going to look like a PR move. But I've known Taves long enough to know that he's not going to allow himself to be like a pawn of the PR department and do a stunt like that. That's just not his style. He knew he had to get, you know, at some point he had to announce that either he was coming back or not.

The timing was unfortunate. The perception was bad. It looked bad. But I don't think that it was certainly not for Taves. it was not some kind of PR stunt where he was trying to do the team as solid. The other name that we brought up is Duncan Keith, who entered the new cycle late last week, and the rumors are maybe he's headed. And I love it when trades are to like a region, right?

It's like, he's going to go to the Pacific Northwest. And then Oyther's fans are like, hold up. Are we part of the Pacific Northwest? Are we not? So let's talk about Duncan Keith, a guy who's going to be, I think, a first ballot Hall of Famer, certainly at the end of his career, what, 37 years old now, just a absolute warrior of a defenseman in his prime was one of the best in the game. I mean, how much tread does he have left on the tire?

And how does this all play out here in the weeks ahead? Well, I think we have to say the Pacific Northwest, but not Vancouver. Can you imagine Duncan Keith in the Vancouver Canucks uniform? Like the city would just implode on itself like the into a singularity. It would just be a nightmare for everybody involved. Look, Duncan Keith's got plenty of tread on. He told me a couple years ago that he wanted to play to least 45. He's got that Chris Chelyos kind of fitness freak.

He's fanatical about his diet, about his fitness regime, all that stuff. He's not the Duncan Keith of 2015 playoffs anymore. He's not the two-time Norris winning Duncan Keith. But he's still got, you know, he's still one of the better skaters on the Blackhawks. He's still a good player. The problem is they're still using him like he's Duncan Keith in 2015. He's playing 24 minutes a night in all situations at 37, 38 years old. And that's where you get into the problem.

I think it goes to, say, Edmonton, and they put him in a second pairing role where he's playing, say, 18, 19 minutes a night and maybe not having to kill penalties. And then all of a sudden, you know, you get the best that you can get out of Duncan Keith. And there's more to give there. And he gives the Oilers that, like, that, you know, the rings in the room, the cup presence, that veteran leadership that he can bring, whether it's Seattle even, or I'm sure he'd love to go to Edmonton and play with Connor McDavid and Leon Drystile and all the talent there. There's something to be had there. And he's got two years left on a deal that pays him $5.5 million. That sweetheart deal he signed, I think it was 942 years ago. It's a good deal.

He can be a $5 million defenseman. And if the Blackhawks wind up making a trade and they keep a quarter of a salary, I mean, that's a steal for any team that's going to get him. Duncan Keith has a couple of good years left in him. It's just the Blackhawks don't use him the way that can maximize him. What do you think Chicago will be looking for in return? What would it cost Edmonton to acquire Duncan Keith? Well, that's the big question, right?

I mean, do they have to, you know, are they looking to get prospects and picks for Duncan Keith? Or are they going to have to throw in a sweetener to have someone take Duncan Keith off their hands? We don't really know what the dynamics of this trade is. I would think you'd want something for Duncan Keith because he's still one of their more useful, valuable players. but in a flat cat world clearing five and a half million dollars of space when Seth Jones and Dougie Hamilton are out there and Duncan Keith has a full no movement clause

and he wants to go to a specific region of the continent like how much leverage did the Blackhawks really have here Duncan Keith wants to be closer to his son his son I think is eight years old now they have a great relationship and it's been tough on him to be away from him especially last year they went through a divorce a couple years ago so he doesn't see his son every day he wants to be closer to his family

I don't think anyone in Chicago is going to begrudge him that. So if a trade does happen, I think it would be on good terms. But it is really interesting to see how that will go down. Are the Blackhawks trading someone or is someone taking Duncan Keith off their hands? Depending on who you talk to, you'll get a different answer on that. So it's just a matter of what the Edminton Oilers think, what the Seattle Cracken think. I mean, the easiest thing to do here, right, would just be to say, hey, Duncan, wave your no movement clause in Seattle will take you in the expansion draft. But I don't think it's going to be quite that simple.

Yeah, certainly listen, one of the fascinating stories to watch unfold in this summer with Chicago. It's Keith and Taves and all the other stuff. Mark Lazarus, really appreciate you taking the time here on this Monday to chat with us. We look forward to all your coverage here around the Chicago Blackhawks in the weeks ahead and enjoy some downtime, hopefully, at some point this summer. All right, Haley, as always, time for us to wrap up our show with a little multiple-choice madness on the Monday. So here we go. A couple of questions.

Let's start with this. And again, keeping in mind, as we talked about earlier in the show, this series is not done. And technically speaking, the Tampa Lightning and Montreal Canadiens could get extended to a fifth, sixth, or seventh game. But if you're voting right now, who gets your cons my trophy at this stage of the game? Is it a. Andre Vazelowski, B, Nikita Kuturov, or C, Braden Point.

Who gets your vote right now, Haley? Well, it's just crazy how things do. change within a week. I think you asked this question last Monday and I said, if the HABs can work their magic, I'm going Carrie Price. And now Carrie Price is getting benched for Jake Allen in the minds of some. He has declined. You know, there is no question about it. So obviously things are quite a bit different this week and Tampa's one went away from their second Stanley Cup in a row. I am going to say Nikita Kutrov is my frontrunner. You know, our Dom, Luce Chishin, does his consmite watch.

You know, he tracks the MVP favorites throughout the cup final. And recently he bumped Kutrov up to the frontrunner category. You know, just because he's been so strong, his game score is at a 7.4 right now, which is quite incredible. The last time I checked Dom's tracker, it said Kutrov has nine points in this playoffs right now. And he's just been incredible. He's been a spark plug for Tampa and, you know, everything that was said about the cheating and the hip injury. I mean, he just came in and he's been lights out from the start of the playoffs.

So I've, you know, you just, you wonder what this team would have looked like through these playoffs without Nikita Kutrov. And I don't know because he's just been such an important piece of what they're doing right now. So I'm going to say him. It's tough because if you had asked me a week ago when we tackle this, I was like, it's got to be Braden Point. Yeah. Like, Braden Point went on a nine game heater, like scored a goal in nine straight playoff games. Like that that's ridiculous. And now the fact that Brayden Point is like third on most people's ballots is like, wow, that shows you how deep Tampa is.

Yeah. Let me put a vote in here for Vasilowski. And he looked really human. I guess human would be the word for how he played in game three. He looked vulnerable, look beatable. This guy's given up five goals in three games. He's got a 948 save percentage in the series. 948 in the Stanley Cup final for Andrei Vazolevsky.

And you start to look at all the things that he's been able to do in the course of the playoffs and outplaying Kerry Price in a head-to-head matchup. boy, it's hard for me to not take Vasilesky, but I don't know that you can go wrong with either Kuturov or Vaselowski or, heck, even Braden Point. But I do think that a recency bias comes into play. I think point was really good in rounds two and three and not so good in the finals. And I think that that will play a factor into it, whereas it feels like Kuturov and Vasiliski have elevated their game here against Montreal. Yeah, I agree. So on the question number two, Haley, in multiple choice. Madness on this Monday.

We're getting into offer sheet season. In fact, Pierre LeBron wrote about Kail McCar potentially being a target for an RFA offer sheet this summer. So here's question number two, Haley, in multiple choice badness. Which one of these young studs is most likely to be targeted with an offer sheet this summer? Is it A. Kale McCar, the Colorado Avalanche, B, Brady Kachuk of the Ottawa Senators? see kareel capriceoff of the minnesota wild d alias peterson of the vancouver connects or e none of the above these offer sheets never happened haley i'm going first i'm going e and i know that pierre lebrun wrote about kale mccar maybe being an offer sheet guy

ottawa fans are nervous about kachuk we've seen the the stuff that mike rousseau's had about kind of maybe a difference of opinion in what caprizov's next contract might look like i get that but i just think like this thing is the boogeyman. Offer sheets are the boogeyman. They're there to scare you, but they never actually come out and play. And they never show their face. So I'm saying nobody gets offer sheeted this summer, Haley, forget about it. Macar, Cachuk, Caprizoff, Patterson, Quinn Hughes, whoever else you want to throw on that list, they're all going to re-sign with their original team without being offered sheeted. What about you? Yeah, I think it's, you know, even in the piece about Kale McCar being an offer sheet, you know, option.

Lebrun even said like, that's probably not happening. And if he does get offer sheeted, you know, he still has to sign the offer sheet. And then obviously he's like, Colorado's going to match it. Like the thing with all these players and what makes them so attractive for teams to offer sheet is how good they are.

But how good they are is just exactly why the teams would just match the offer sheet if they have the cap space. Like, just think about how much that offer sheet for, Elias Pedersen would need to be for Vancouver not to match it. Like, we did this, I did this exercise in a mailbag on the flames because somebody asked, you know, Vancouver is extremely, they're very, very tight to the cap. They have, you know, Pedersen and Hughes to sign this off season. And they've, you know, used a significant amount of their cap for some of their veteran players.

So their cap struggles are no secret in Vancouver. And so some Flames fans were asking, you. you know, should the flames offer sheet Elias Pedersen? And in the exercise, just looking through it, I was like, you know, they would need to offer sheet Pedersen for like $12 million or something for them not to match that. Like Vancouver would have to, they would have to make the money work. But then, like, he's a great player, but are you going to go offer sheet him for $12.5 million

just to take him away from the Canucks? Like, because I don't know, they never happen. And when they do happen, like, didn't Carolina thank Montreal for the offer sheet two years ago on Ahoaks? They were like, that's cheaper than we were going to offer. Thanks. So I think that experience, too, has probably made some GMs be like, no, we're good. Yeah. And you know what?

And just so everybody knows the threshold, so to speak. Yeah. And full credit to Elliot Friedman because he was the one who posted them last week in his blog. But basically, here are the two numbers that people need to know. So the biggest number is $10.27 million. If a team offered, and let's use Alias Pedersen and Calgary, if Calgary offered Elias Pedersen a contract where the AAV is north of $10.27 million, $4 first round picks. The Calgary Flames would have to give up four first round picks. Four first round picks.

It ain't happening. The only people I could maybe you could wrap your head around for that is like a McDavid or, you know what I mean? It's not for the Elias Pedersons of the world. That's a lower threshold. So let's say that that number is, you know, 8 million, right? Or something. Now you're still, if the number is 9 million, you still have to give up two first round picks, a second round pick, and a third round pick. So I just, I really truly believe that this thing is like the boogeyman and it's not going to come out. All right. Final question in multiple choice madness, Haley, before we wrap up this Monday edition of the show, the Montreal Canadians get to the Stanley Cup final. Here's my last question for you, Haley. Look ahead into your crystal ball and tell me, who's the next Canadian team to get to a Stanley Cup final? And your options, of course, are all the usual suspects. Toronto, Edmonton, Wittipad, Calgary.

Montreal, Vancouver, Ottawa, Haley, which Canadian team gets to a Stanley Cup final next? I don't like this question because I think all these teams are going to make change. I mean, most of these teams are going to make changes this off season. So I don't know what iteration of these franchises we're talking about. Like, I put Toronto going all the way this year and they didn't. It's hard to put your money on really anybody. Is that bad? Like, look at the Leafs next year in the Atlantic.

That division's going to be tough. It's going to be tough for Montreal, too. Ottawa, look, give credit where credits do. That rebuild is going well, but they're not over the hump yet either. Edmonton is out in the first round again, even though they have Connor McDavid in his prime, Leon Dreis Heidel. Calgary didn't make the playoffs this year. But I think Darrell Sutter, having a full camp with Darrell Sutter might help. what changes they make this off season.

Like, is it crazy to say Winnipeg? They just seem the most stable. Like, they don't have something where I'm like, no. Like, they don't have a huge deal breaker, I guess, the Jets. Maybe they do. Maybe, I don't know. I don't like this question, Ian. Yeah, but, I mean,

Winnipeg seems like the least crazy one. Like, I feel like if I say Winnipeg, no one's going to hate me, you know? Yeah. No, it's a great point. You're right. They're the most stable team. And look, nobody would have, like six months ago, hardly anyone would have picked Montreal, right?

To be the next Canadian team to get to a final. So there's so much that's up in the air. I'm going to say Edmonton. And I'm going to say it because of exactly what you said earlier. Yeah, you're not by law of covering the Calgary Flames. You can't, just like I can't say Toronto. No. But I truly think you got McDavid and Drysidal in their prime.

Come on. At some point, it's going to click. So I'll take I'll take Edmonton. I did have a question for you from our last one, but I didn't want to interrupt you. It's not really multiple choice, but thinking of offer sheets. Which GM would you never offer sheet because they're so terrifying? Oh, Lou Lamerillo. My God, I ended up with a horse's head in my next to me the day after I offer sheet somebody from the islanders.

No thank you. Yeah. No thank you. What about like when Darryl Sutter was? GM. Can you imagine if somebody tried to offer sheet one of Daryl's players? Like if they offer sheeted one of his like favorites, I know he wasn't GM in LA, but if you offer sheet like Kyle Clifford or something crazy. Oh man. Also, also Ron Hextall and Brian Burke combined in Pittsburgh. I don't want to mess with those guys. Yeah, no. Right? They're all untouchable.

Burke will probably try to set up a barn fight if you do that. All right. Haley, we'll have to leave it there. This was a lot of fun. And once again, I appreciate your work and, uh, While you got your downtime here, Haley, you see your, you're plugging through and working on your vacation, but I know our list is appreciated. What's more impressive? Me coming on the podcast when I broke my pinky toe or me coming on the podcast on vacation. Vacation, for sure. Pinky toe, you can suck it up. But the vacation, this is huge.

All right. So, Haley, listen, have a great week. We'll get you again next Monday. And big thanks to everybody for listening to this latest edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. A reminder to follow us on your favorite podcast platform. Leave us a rating and a review. We certainly appreciate that. A reminder as well.

The Athletic Hockey Show, we're rolling five days a week right through the Stanley Cup playoffs into the draft. And we got that Team USA podcast coming up on Tuesday. It's Custis and Gentilly coming your way. Burnside LeBrun, the two-man Advantage edition on Wednesday. And a reminder, if you're not a subscriber to us, you can get an annual subscription. to The Athletic for just $3.99 a month when you visit theathletic.com slash hockey show.