The Athletic Hockey Show - NHL prospects Corey was wrong about, Calder Trophy check-in, listener questions

Episode Date: December 1, 2023

It’s Friday and a brand new episode of The Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series as Max, Corey, and FloHockey’s Chris Peters break down Corey’s annual “NHL prospects I was wrong about” list, check in on the Calder Trophy race, and answer a bunch of listener questions in the mailbag.Subscribe to The Athletic Hockey Show on YouTube: http://youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowGift a 1-year subscription to The Athletic for $19.99 or a 2-year subscription for $39.99 when you visit theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. Hey, everybody. Max Boltman here alongside Corey Prondman and Blow Hockey's Chris Peters for another episode of the Athletic Hockey Show's Prospect Series. We got a lot to get into today. We got the Calder checking. We got a really full mailbag. But I want to bring it in here with a story that's really a favorite for everybody around here. Corey's annual players I was wrong about. Technically, I guess, prospects I was wrong about. But now they're players. And the point is that Corey was wrong. And Corey, in all seriousness, I do think this is one of your best articles every year because it isn't just a kind of check-in.

It is a reflection of where you think you went wrong on certain players with how you rank them. There was a couple of guys that I was actually surprised to see in here. If I remember, right, I think you were still pretty positive on Mason McTavish at the time of his draft year. But he makes your list as a guy, I think because of what he's become, especially this year for the Anaheim Ducks. Yeah, correct, Dick. Going into the draft, I thought he was an excellent player. Obviously, everybody had saw that whatever, he scored 29 goals and a 16-year-old in the OHL

and didn't play because of the COVID pause in his draft season. He played a couple of games, I think Switzerland's second-tier league. And then he goes to the U18 World as one of the best players there. So obviously he was a highly rated player. But I didn't have him rated at the same level as Owen Power or Maddie Baneers going to the draft. And he fast-fass-for now a few years. it's become very clear he should have been rated in that tier. I think you can make a pretty reasonable discussion for Mason McTavich as the best player from that draft class right now.

I still think those four first picks, which was Power, Feneers, McTavish, and Luke Q's are the top four players in some order. Depending on who you ask, the order might be different. McTavich is absolutely in that conversation. Might be at the very top of that conversation. He's one of the best all-around young forwards in the NHL right now. And going into the draft, I did not see that. I had some mild skating concerns, which have proven to be not true. His skating is more than fine.

It's an asset at the NHL level to go with the tremendous skill, the scoring ability, the competitiveness. He's a smart player. You know, he doesn't have, I think you saw those other three candidates. You saw power, you know, the 6-6 frame, Beneers, the elite competitiveness, Luke Hughes, the elite skating. I don't think there's anything about McTavish's game

that ever rose to that level, but everything about this player is either good to very good. It's interesting because with both McTavish and another player on this list, Matt Pwatra, there is a mitigating factor here, right? And I wonder that both of you guys could probably speak to this. When you hear NHL teams now reflect back on those two really heavily affected COVID drafts,

McTavish's draft year and Guatra's age 16 season. What kind of role did that play for teams, especially now that they have a little bit of hindsight in who they missed and who they hit? Yeah, I mean, particularly in McTavish, I mean, you know, he's playing in a league where you're just not typically scouting. You know, you're not, you're, he's that, that Swiss second tier league, you know, how do you judge that? You know, and I think that that's a real and obviously everybody was watching them also on video on, for the most part with that draft as well. So, you know, I think that that's absolutely, you know, where, where some of the, where some of the issues were. And, and, you know, I think for the guys that miss

their 16 year old season, it's just, you know, it's less of a book. It's less of a track record. And it's less of progression that you can track that's actually, you know, that we're typically doing for the rest of the players that, that we, that we do track. But, I mean, I still think that that was that was such a difficult year. I'm really glad that we did have the in-person under 18 worlds because that at least allowed us, but like you look at like Wyatt Johnson at that tournament, you know, if you would have judged off of that tournament, you wouldn't think that Wyatt Johnson was going to become what he is now in the NHL.

So it's just, it's wild to see how we saw those types of things happen with these players. But yeah, I mean, you can't ignore that that had an impact in some way. But I still think that a lot of teams, I mean, McTavish was a guy that, you know, I had them too low as well. I had him seventh in the class at that point. You know, I had guys like Kent Johnson and William Ecclund ahead of him, you know, on my personal ranking. So, you know, that's that and that was, that was tough because, you know, we were looking at guys in different situations. And, yeah, but it's, it's fascinating to look back on that year and just kind of see where, where were some of those mistakes made. And Corey, I wonder too, like, you know, you talked about skating with McTabish.

And, you know, I've always thought that skating off a video can be really tricky, especially the kind of video that we were getting out of that Swiss League. You know, but we did get those live viewings too. So, but yeah, that's always interesting. I don't have issues scouting on skating on video personally. But I do think the quality definitely matters. You go to those lower tier leagues. If you're trying to scout like high school on skating on video, it can be very challenging.

sometimes, for example. And I did see McTavish live as a 16-year-old. Obviously, not as a 17-year-old until the tournament. So those were obviously, again, COVID had some unique challenges, as you both were alluding to. It wasn't widespread in terms of, like, making massive errors all across the board with the OHL players, though. It wasn't like Brandt Clark went in the fourth round or something like that.

You definitely had a couple of significant cases. that if maybe if Wyatt Johnson had played a full draft season. And I was a bit, I Wyatt Johnson fan. I had him right around where he went in that draft. But if he had played a full season, maybe he actually put up 80, 90 points. And he shows that he's more than just this nice two-way center. He has the elite offensive abilities too.

I thought he had good offensive abilities going into the, into his draft. Obviously, he showed far more than even I thought, and probably even than Dallas probably thought they were getting at 20. in terms of if watchtran maybe he has a little bit more of a runway he develops more and his offense really pops in his draft season

and that's all possible it's hard to say what would or wouldn't have happened but you know you still saw most of the top Ontario players in those two years go in roughly the right order but obviously we now as time has gone by

and we've started to see how those age groups have developed the highest error rate has definitely come out of Ontario relative to Quebec and Western Canada. Yeah. I did think it was interesting, Corey. I think you mentioned the skating here with not sure if there's a mis-evaluation or something you made progress in. My recollection is the comps that were being thrown around on McTavish at that time were like a Ryan O'Reilly. And that tells me that a lot of people were in that same boat of what they saw at least at that time. And there were some scouts. I talked to the time who didn't like his skating. And there were some scouts. I talked to the time who didn't like his skating.

and there were some scouts who thought it wasn't an issue. But kind of what Chris was getting at, very limited live viewings in the draft season. You know, you could, I guess, wherever you saw at the U-18, some people saw a good feed, some people didn't. And that's where the debate ultimately came down to. You know, it's interesting when you kind of think of the runway

and how players will change in their draft season. You know, I didn't hear anybody telling me this time last year that, you know, out of Colonna, that Tijiginla could be a first round pick in this draft. I don't know whether he will or not, but he's definitely helped based on the progress he's made this season. There's plenty of other examples you can make in the course of a draft season of how guys progress or fall back.

And in the case like McTavish, Johnson, especially Pautra, that full runway of two seasons in the CHL can really change the way you view a player. And, you know, we were, we were playing with limited data. That it still doesn't mean if the evaluation is way off. And other people saw it. That means they saw something that you didn't. There were some people I talked to who really liked Poitra. There are some people I talk to who love McTavish.

And so that other people could arrive with those conclusions means that you could have arrived at the same conclusions too. If nobody thought Quattro was good, you know, if he would have went in like the seventh round, at that point, it's like, okay. obviously this player developed incredibly well in the period of two years now that he's in the NHL. But it wasn't. They took him in the second round.

Boston did. So obviously they saw something really positive in this player to make that bet, especially given the player type and he didn't score a ton in his draft season. Another player who was kind of divisive on the, maybe not so much on strict sample, but maybe on how concentrated the sample was was Jack Quinn. And he had that explosive draft year after not really being that high in anyone's radar coming into it.

And obviously, a couple years later here, it looks like the people who believed were very right on Jack Quinn. Right. I mean, remember the Markle Rossi versus Jack Quinn debates and those were some very passionate debates at times. And obviously, you know, Quinn's been injured. So we haven't seen how we've been able to play this season in Buffalo. So it's a little, you know, I've done this article for a while. And sometimes you put players in this article and they come back the other way shortly thereafter. it's happened more times that I'd like to admit. But I think in the case of Quinn,

given that I thought he'd be like the second third line, you know, 2020 type of winger. And now seeing what he did in Rochester, two years after his draft, seeing what he did in Buffalo last year, just evaluating how dynamic his skill really is. I'm confident at this point

thinking that he's going to be better than just a 2020 type of forward, I think, as he continues to develop, presuming he stays healthy. I was concerned at the time that he was just another pretty skilled, mediocre skating, 6-0 winger. I see that player type all the time. But where he was different is in the results. This was a guy who was driving an elite, elite CHL team

and being a big reason for why he was getting so many goals and points. It wasn't because of Marco Rossi. He was doing a lot of the heavy lifting too, a very competitive player. and I probably was a little too harsh on him, giving the team around him and his late birthday and the mediocre athleticism and not just appreciate just truly how skilled and intelligent this player was. It's interesting when you talk about kind of the results there and what they said about him, it can bite you too.

And your assessment of Samuel Fajimo kind of concludes, I didn't think anything about any one thing about his game was so special, but the production, the results were just there to the point that you bought in. Right. And I actually had a couple of Kings fans in the comments say, you know, you're going to be wrong about being wrong on Fasimo. Look at how good he's doing in the American League.

And he's been very good in the American League for a number of years. He was very good in the SHL, very good for Sweden internationally. This is also a player that's been claimed on waivers twice this season and is now in the American League. maybe he is an NHL player one day. Maybe he finds a way in. And I know the occasional scout who still does like this player,

but I hadn't rated as like after his, I think his World Junior where he led the tournament in scoring. I think I raid him as one of the top 10 to 15 wingers outside the NHL. And that obviously was wrong because he's not in the NHL three years later. And I don't know when he'll ever be in the NHL. And I still think he's a good skater. He has skill. you can score goals.

He's a nice player. But there is definitely like a high-end traits in his game. And especially with Wingers, it's very tough to make the H.L. If you don't have something that you're special at, or you're just a really good athlete in general. Because the goal scoring winger with average size and average skating, that is a very replaceable job. and they exist in the NHL, but they exist, I think, until the team finds a better option.

Or a cheaper option, yeah, usually by the time you're ready to get paid, they're ready to be done. It's not the best line of work always, although I'd still take it. But you talk about kind of the profile, and I think you could make a similar case about the small-skilled offensive defensemen. And so reading about Adam Bowquist, you know, you kind of talk about the force that he was at the junior level and the production that it was in the OHL playoffs. And yet you go into the NHL and you just see over and over again how much tougher it is to translate that into the hardest league in the world. That little stretch there, the 2017 draft, the 2018 draft, you saw such an emphasis

in those drafts on skill and defensemen. You know, you had both this, but you had in the same draft, Quinn Hughes, obviously fantastic player, and Gil Bacar, obviously fantastic player. obviously fantastic player. But you, you know, you saw, you know, Ty Smith, Ryan Murkley, Niels Lunkfuss, even Jacob Bernard Docker was 6-0,

went in the first round. You saw in the 2017 draft, you saw Timothy Lilligran the first round. Eric Brannstrom went high in the first round. It was really a lot of these smaller puck-moving defenseman types that went high in that two years. stretch. It's interesting to see how a lot of that has aged over time. And I saw a couple of people

make remarks in the comments of the piece comparing Adam Bockefus at the same age to Lane Hudson. And I'd be curious what you would think of that, Chris. Oh, man. I just think, I think Lane Hudson's a lot more skilled than Bokwest ever was. And he's also a lot smarter than he ever was. I think those are two of the mitigating factors. The question is, like, and that's, And I mean, that, that says a lot because Boquist was very skilled. I mean, the hands, you know, he made some great plays with the puck. He was able to make plays on the rush. You know, there was a lot there.

But the other thing that I think is a separating factor for Lane Hudson is the competitive edge that he has. Even though he's small, he's a competitor. I mean, I don't, I've never watched a game of Adam Boquist saying this guy is a high-end competitor. You know, and I think that that in the end, I think is part of where, you know, what, what kind of went wrong for them in part of it. And really, you know, once, once you get past the skill, is there anything else there? And, you know, I think we, we, I mean, I had them very high as well.

You know, I had them, I had them right behind Quinn Hughes that year in that, in that draft. And, you know, I just, yeah, and you think about guys like Noah Dobson and Evan Bouchard, who were in the same class. And you're like, oh, well, they're a lot better than Adam Boquist. but it's interesting. And it's interesting that you said kind of like in that era of, hey, we're going to, we're going to go for some of that smaller skill.

And then you do end up with a Quinn Hughes or a Kail McCar. And that's a great thing. But, you know, as we've seen now, it's really started going the opposite direction. The guys like Lane Hudson are going in the second round, you know, guys like, you know, you still see the occasional guy like a Denton Matechuk. And, you know, there are certainly players that are going to go high enough that aren't super big guys that that can play with the puck very well. But, you know, this, I think we are going to continue to see that, you know, those guys are going to continue to slide. There's a higher risk factor unquestionably.

You know, you think about guys like, you know, Axel Sandin Pelica last year. He's having, you know, he's having that great year or great start to the year production wise this year. but as Corey showed, you know, like guys like Fasimo and different, different players that you, you got to be careful about how you look at the points because there is at some point, you know, the size thing, the different elements of their game that you might not be as high on. Once you get to the NHL level, that's a, the separation is very noticeable. And I think for Boquist, the thing that I got concerned with very early, on with him was his decision making and his, what I thought he had was poised before.

I didn't see that as he progressed. As the ice shrunk, and he also talked about, I remember very, when he was at London, he talked about how difficult the transition of the smaller ice surface was for him and how it had to, he had to like recalibrate. And I don't know that he never ever necessarily got comfortable with that, just in terms of time and space and things like that. It's funny you bring up Sandy Pelica. I can't help reading these things sometimes through a Detroit lens because that's the team I cover on a daily basis.

And I was trying to think what distinguishes those to? I guess it's probably the shot in the compete. But it highlights that even in these, you know, these pro, Sandy Pelica might be on pace to set a record for a defense from that age. But if they're all just power play goals from the circle, which of it's going to translate and how much does that matter? I'd argue both. I get the one part of Chris's analysis that disagreed with. I think Bochfist, when he was 17.

18, I thought had exceptional skill, exceptional hockey set, like Lane Hudson level for sure, and definitely better than Axel Sand and Pelica in terms of his puck. Yeah, I would, I would agree with. Yeah, like, he was a dynamo with the puck. Like, and probably all like, and as I'm talking about in the article, almost too offensive at times. He played like a forward. Um, but like, you know, what he did in Sweden, internationally, especially in the OHL offensively was, you know, kind of like Lane, extremely impressive record breaking almost at times um you know but the competitiveness for me was always the biggest issue just you know very indifferent and and and a negative on the defensive side of the puck even though he is bigger than lane yeah um you know i think lane's skating slightly better

and then much more competitive so that would be the distinction there uh for me but it wouldn't surprise me if that is Lane's career. I think it will be better. But like, I think, and I think there are people in the NHL who think Lane's going to be like the second, third pair power play specialist. And I think until he's in the NHL or maybe if he goes to the world this year, plays really good against NHL forwards. I think there's always going to be that question on him until, until there isn't. Yeah, it does seem like that, that player type. You have to really wait to have seen it happen before you're, you're confident in saying that it's going to happen, right?

It's, you can see as much as you want in college and the American League even to some degree. We want to see it in the NHL. I had a good conversation the other day of somebody about Eric Branstrom. Remember how good Eric Branstrom was as a junior? And then he went to the American League. It was like an all-star right away. I think it's like a 19 or a 20-year-old. And it's, to what Max was saying, it's a big jump going from there into the NHL.

Man, yeah, that brand. And I remember thinking, wow, you know what? Ottawa did pretty well to get Brandstrom in that deal for Mark Stone. And I was like, it actually became evident quickly how not true that was. Like that was, that was crazy to me that it just went south because, man,

I loved Brandstrom those, especially that world juniors that year with, with Deline when they, they went to the gold medal game and ended up losing to Canada. But boy, there was some, they were playing on the, on the harbor center ice.

And in that small building, just watching those two skate was just, and they, they did a lot, a lot of damage in that tournament for sure. Yeah. awesome that's great stuff core i always love that article i know chris uh loves the opportunity to i do too but it's like it reminded me how wrong i was on the same exact players like this was

this was about as close as i like i there wasn't one guy that i could say ha ha i got you corey on that one guy so uh so i this wasn't as an enjoyable experience for me max quite frankly yeah well kudos to you cori it is seriously it takes uh it takes something to do an article like this and it does not go and notice. We're going to take a quick break right there. We'll finish shower and Corey with love, and then we'll come back to you. We'll check it on the Calder race.

Believe me. All right. We are back, and we are going to talk today about, it's kind of the quarter season point, I think. I think it's a good time to check in on the Calder Trophy race. And maybe since the start of the year,

it has not been the most climactic race here. Connor Bedard expected to be a prohibitive favorite. And I would say at the quarter point, we're pretty much on track for that to be where this is headed. Is that fair? It is, but he's not like running away with it to the point where there's no way anybody else will win it. He's obviously been very impressive for Chicago, and he is the deserving favorite right now,

you know, impact player on their team, very dangerous offensively, generates a lot of scoring chances. But I think there are some guys who are close. Like, you know, Adam Fantille, he's seconded in the NHL among rookies and shots, but Annifantilly is first. Probably has a little bit of bad puck there. I wouldn't be surprised me if Fantili starts to get a stretch of him to go in for him here. In the coming months, it makes it a little bit closer. If Leo Carlson starts playing consistent games, maybe he could get closer.

And then you have this pack of defensemen who are playing really important roles on the teams that usually these awards go to forward to the post of defensemen. but I think there's guys within striking distance of Fodard right now. Let's talk about some of those defensemen here because there's two that are putting up pretty gaudy numbers here, and that would be Luke Hughes and Pavel Minchikov. But there's a third in Brock Faber, who I know people are suspicious sometimes about Tymont and Ice as a stat, especially when it's for a team that's having the kind of season of Minnesota Wildar.

But for Brock Fabor to step in and play 23 minutes a night, on a blue line that is not actually lacking that much, I'm quite impressed by that as well. Yeah, and I do, I'm a big time on ice believer. I mean, I think that what the way you're playing is going to dictate the amount of time you play. And, you know, we saw it in the playoffs last year. Brock Faber steps in and because he's a good skater, because he's incredibly intelligent, because he's a great competitor, he's able to make an impact pretty immediately.

You know, you look at all the things that are ailing the Minnesota wild right now, and Brock Faber is not one of those things. Brock Faber is one of the solutions to what is happening. And I think, you know, with John Heinz coming in, I don't think that his role is going to be changed very much. If anything, he might be used even more the way the way things are going. But what I've liked to see, what I like to see with guys like Brock Faber is, you know, just how simple they make the league look. And it's not that it's easy because they're obviously, the team has been terrible. But the games that I've watched the wild, I've never had one where I'm like, wow,

Brock Faber is just, he's behind it. He's, he's not, he is always prepared. And I believe he's always just, he plays, he plays to his own identity and doesn't try to do too many things. And I also think that some of the things that he's done offensively, the way that he's moved pox, the way that he's exited his own, the way that he's, you know, gotten transitional play. I really like what I'm seeing. I also like the way that he's played in the offensive zone,

which has never been necessarily the thing that we think about. We think about Brock Faber, who's always been, you know, one of those guys where it's like, oh, man, he really, you know, the defensive side of the game is really where he excels. And, you know, those players are, he's not going to get the points to win the Calder. But what he is going to have is a season that he's going to be able to build on to the point where this guy looks like he's a number one defenseman. if he continues down this road.

Now, he wouldn't be a number one defenseman everywhere, but with the Minnesota Wild, he's on that track, I feel like. Yeah, kind of like the cul de situation, McAvoy was when he came into the league. He's just not going to have the offense to win that award. And I don't think Faber, even though there is some rhymes with the skating and to compete,

I don't think he is of that caliber. I agree with you. Yeah, a player, but there are enough rhymes there in the player type and to where you, maybe he'll get some votes, but probably not going to win the award unless something really strange happens in the coming months. Minchikov, too, and both him and Luke Hughes have been impressive in playing big roles, but I think especially for Minchikov,

who was a 2022 draft pick, he's really soon here. I guess Hughes, as a late birthday in 2021, nearly was as well, but for Minchikov already to be playing the kind of role he is in Anaheim, I mean, we just did the trade value rankings, top 100. on that list, Uriyslovsky was not on that list. He has very quickly cemented himself as a really valuable piece for Anaheim. Yeah, when coming to the season you saw, Anaheim had a lot of really strong defense prospects. You know, he had Minchikov, he had Jackson Lakov, Tristan Leno, Olinzellweger. We'll see how these things working stuff out at camp. Obviously, Minchikov was the highest pick

among them, and we've seen why. I mean, there's a, you know, a ton of really desirable traits in this game between his skating, his tremendous skill. I think his offensive hockey sense has really shown early on here in his NHL career. And he's done this without being so detrimental defensively that they don't have to play him. I think that was always the concern in junior as he played like a forward at time. Not too similar from the hand of both this conversation we had earlier, but the difference is he's this is a fairly 511.

This is a barely 6 foot 2 defenseman who I don't. think has compete issues as much as he tries to create offense and activate into the offense. And, you know, he's running their power play now and just looks like a true top defense prospect, who I think, you know, maybe, you know, maybe more so even than a favorite type has a chance to be a legit number one defenseman in the NHL. Yeah. When you watch them as a prospect, you saw it. I don't think it was like recklessness.

It was just really aggressiveness. And sometimes maybe more than I needed you. But he would chase a big hit. He would chase a, I can break up this and take it the other way. And that way, I think you can see some rhyme actually there with Luke Hughes even. Maybe not the big hit. They're pressing, right? They're pushing the office.

I think maybe a little bit more natural puck mover than Luke, but doesn't have quite the skating that Luke goes, even though I think Mitchcock is a good skater. I think it's really interesting in Anaheim, you know, it's a shame that yet again, Jamie Drysdale has hurt because I really wanted to see how the two of them would look on the same blue line. consistently and I'm sure Ducks fans do too. Yeah. And I would also say that this, you know, regardless of what happens in the

standings this season, I feel like this entire Ducks season has been a net positive because of what they've seen from their futures, from what they've seen from, from Carlson, from Mitzikob and Jackson Lekombe, too, who's, you know, playing averaging nearly 20 minutes a night for them, you know, and there's, there's a lot of positives to kind of look at with those young guys taking that step. And obviously, we talked about Mason McTavish earlier in the show as well. I mean, there's so much to like about it. But man, Mintukov, I definitely, you know, have been impressed by him this year.

He's tops among a defenseman and shots on goal as well with 36. And then the vast majority of his points have come in even strength, you know, despite the fact that now he is getting more power play time and that he's got an opportunity to make a significant impact on the advantage there. So if you're a Ducks fan, I mean, it's got to be super exciting to see the litany of young talent that is already making an impact pretty quickly. And the one negative being Trevor Zegris's start to the season, although I think Duck fans are hoping that that was just the injury that was least in part causing his underwhelming start. What do you guys make really quick of the way that they're approaching things with Leo Carlson? I think Chris maybe alluded to it earlier on in this.

I mean, it isn't maybe the same throw you right into the fire approach that we see with like a badard. I find it fascinating for one because we don't see it very often with top picks. And maybe we should on it. You know, like, and there have been how many, you know, should we have seen that with with Slavkovsky, LaFranier, you know, any of those guys that we've said, you know, hey, this isn't really clicking. Do we just keep putting it in there? And this is something like to stick to your guns to even when, you know, Leo Carlson has hat trick in a game and you're just like, hey, you know, like we're sticking to this plan.

This is the, you know, we don't want to, we don't want to play any two games this year. And maybe you build and maybe things shift as he gets better. But I just think that the discipline to remain patient with the process. And then also, you know, at the beginning of the season when they're competing and it's like, oh, hey, this is, there's something happening here in Anaheim. We're starting to get rolling a little bit. They just stuck to it. And I think that that level of patience.

doesn't exist particularly for top picks, for guys that are top three picks in the draft, those guys don't necessarily get that level of patients applied to them when maybe when a lot more should. And I just, I want to see how this is going to play out over the course of the full season. As long as everybody understands what, like what it is and if there are certain benchmarks that are supposed to be hit,

then I think it's a positive for them. But even in limited minutes, he's making an impact. So the lack of consistency of playing time or sitting out a few games has not impacted him negatively in any visible way at this point. But I find it fascinating. Just one thing that I think is important is I think it's very different depending on where you come from. I probably wouldn't do this with a top picket of me out of the CHL who are used to 65 games season plus extended playoffs. But when you come from, you know, the European countries like Sweden, where their seasons can be 40 games sometimes.

If you look at the amount of games they play even before they reach the SHL or the J20s, those J18 or those 14-year-old seasons, they might play 20 games sometimes in a full year. That's a big jump going from 30, 40, 50 games to 82. So, you know, U.S. college, maybe even some resemblance of that too. I think that's a distinction as well. Yeah. One thing that I think always factors into the Calder race, especially on these candidates who are in the top 10 for scoring,

is what's your role on the team and how the team do? So I think when we talked about Matt Poitra in the last segment a lot, he's in a big role for one of the best teams in the NHL at such a young age. I also think you can make a case for Logan Cooley on those grounds, just with an Arizona team that they're around a playoff spot. If they can continue that throughout the whole year with him playing the role he is and producing the way he is. Probably, like we talked about in an earlier case with Faber,

probably not going to win the award, but certainly can get you some votes there and get your name around it. I mean, I think he's, I wouldn't rule out as coolly, wouldn't have the award just quite yet. I think, like I said, I think he's one of those guys in striking range. We'll see how it's season goes.

He's had some times this year where he's looked, you know, really, really good. And then he's had a couple of game stretches where he's, you know, he looks like a teenager in the NHL and the physicality can wear on him a little bit. but he's, you know, he's, you know, looks like a guy he's been an important part of their power play, helping their team in a notable role. You know, they're not feeding him too many minutes early on,

what you like to see. You know, I will see how the rest of his season goes, likely not going to the world juniors. So, you know, trying to help Arizona continue to make a playoff push here. And if they, I don't make it, I think even if they come close, frankly, like if they're in a race until March, never mind April, he will definitely get serious consideration.

Yeah. Yeah. I think one other thing about Cooley, too, looking back, he had a bit of a similar trajectory last season in his first year of college hockey, too, where Minnesota had a few games that were kind of like, you know, easy gimmie games at the beginning of the season, and then they started playing some tougher opponents, and the points weren't coming for Cooley. And he just developed, kept going, and then he ended up being one of the, his second half of the season and was just absolutely off the charts and it being one of the highest scoring freshmen, you know,

that we've had in college hockey. He's one of those players that, and I just feel like this has always been the case with him. He learns pretty quickly and he and he adjusts to that because there are a lot, like Corey said, there are a lot of times where he does the stuff at the offensive blue line and you're just like, why are, like you can't do that at this level. But, but it was the same thing at college hockey. He was trying to skate through five guys all the time. and then he adjusted.

And so I'm fascinating to see, especially as long as Arizona remains competitive, how much he impacts that because I do think the best is yet to come for him this season. And like Cori said, I wouldn't rule him out being a contender because I do think that there's a bit of a build that can happen with him. And like, of course, we do not expect to see him at the World Junior Championship. And if you're Arizona, you need him now, which is a great position for him to be. And it's another example of saying, hey, this is a guy that deserves our consider. because he's going to be a big part of a team that is probably exceeding expectations to a certain extent this season.

Remember when there was a stretch where he thought he was going to go back to college again this season? I know. I mean, up until August, we were like, hey. And, you know, like the first indication was when he said, I'm not going to the world junior camp in the summer. Like, what's going to happen? That was pretty much like the first indication that he's not coming. Yeah. One more name I wanted to hit, just really on the good story front here is the name of Corey.

I know you've been passionate about for a long time. I think he was one of your dark horses, Dmitri Voronkov in Columbus. And, you know, Aaron Portson had an unbelievable story on Tuesday about this. Veronkov was battling homesickness. He was considering going back to Russia. And he ends up sticking it out.

He's staying here. He scores the other night. And what I was shocked to find out was the first time, the four Russian players ever scored in the same game. So that's a cool little historical note there. But he's having a really nice season. 10 points in 17 games. the season's been what it is in Columbus,

but as bright spots go, he has been certainly one of their biggest. Yep, you know, a big physical forward, skilled. He's been playing on the second line. I think at times with Adam Fantilli,

and Fantilli's, you know, I think his season's bit shake as well. I've watched Fantili's year. I know the production hasn't been, you know, say what Leo Carlson's per game production has been. When I've watched Fantili this season,

I've generally been very impressed. by him. I mean, everybody was talking about that assist the other day that he had on the Patrick Lineagle. But I think, you know, if those two stay together, I think they've had Marchenko there at times. I know they've had to mix things up in Columbus a lot because of all the losing. But I think those two, their physicality and their skill can mesh well together. And I do think, I think Fantilli will score a lot more before the season is over. All right.

We're going to take a quick break right there. We'll come back with the middleback. All right, we are back, and it is mailbag time. We're going to go through a few of these here. Lots of good ones here. And the first one, Corey, is for you from Chris Lindsay, who wants some of your thoughts on the development of William Eccland, now that he's made the NHL.

Obviously, evaluating anybody in San Jose this season comes with his challenges as a team that has struggled, often doesn't have the puck. It makes it a little more difficult to invest. evaluate the players they have there. But Eklund is on their top power play. He is playing an important role on that team. You see the skating and the skill he has and that he can create offense in the hard

areas of the ice. You see kind of where his offense is coming from. It is coming from more of the interior of the offensive zone, which you like seeing for a smaller player. When we looked at Eklund coming into his draft year, I saw a really dynamic winger. Yes, he was small. But the skating, the skill, the offensive. of hockey sense, all looked outstanding,

and it looked like he could be a difference maker at that size. You fast forward a few years, I still think a lot of that is true. I do wonder if the high side authentically is ever going to be the truly high end, or whether this is just more on a quality top six winger that we are talking about. The production this year hasn't been amazing.

Get off the context, the team around him, but he's part of the team playing a big role. So I do like him. I like his progress since he's coming North America. I think he's a very good player. I just don't know. In terms of the shark's rebuild, if he's going to be a huge difference maker, I still think at this current moment, a huge part of the rebuild is future picks.

You know, probably going to have a very high pick this year. And obviously the progress of Will Smith, who has been excellent lately, mind you. Yeah. Chris, Carson Wolock wants to know how you see Cutter-Gote's goal scoring translated into the NHL level. Is there a 40-goal, top power play, potential for a Flyers team that hasn't had that guy since Lindros. Just for context, I was just pulling up Cutter Gochier's stats here,

12 goals and 14 games so far this year for Boston College. Yeah, he's been awesome. And you think about Boston College has the big line with Will Smith, who we just mentioned, with Ryan Leonard and Gabe Perot. And then basically, Cutter Goce is, it's him. Like, I like that to not take away anything from Boston College's second line. It's good, good college players. but we're talking about, you know, three first-round draft picks and then him on the next and the next group.

And I do think that Boston College is a lot tougher to match up against because they have those lines and there's weapons everywhere. But, you know, what I've seen from Cutter Goce this year is actually what we saw kind of in the summer as well. And also at the World Championship last year. I thought the World Championship last year was a difference-making tournament for Cutter Goce in that he proved he could play with men. he actually played better at that tournament, I thought, even though he had more points at the world juniors, I thought he played better at the world, at the men's worlds than he did at the world juniors that year earlier. And he's built off of that. And then he came into the summer camp and he was a dominant player at the U.S. summer camp as well, where he was just bullying people.

He was outskating him. So the reason why I think his goal scoring will translate to the NHL is less because of the elite shot, which I think is he's got a great shot. But it's his ability to get to the interior. And he's shown that more and more and more. He can score from the outside. He gets the interior. He scores a lot of goals towards the net. Can score from distance. But the strength that he plays with, he's added more power to his game. He has good pace. Like all those things are coming together. The question is going to be at the NHL level, is he a center or is he a wing? And he's a center at Boston College. There's a very strong possibility at the World Juniors. He's going to play on the wing. I almost call it likely that he'll play on the wing. And that might be because they have,

you know, James Hagan's Will Smith. Breaking Nazar, you know, a couple guys that they can play down in the middle that they trust. But for me, you know, I think it's going to come down to him being, you know, if he's on the wing, I do think that that is going to increase his goal potential. I like him better on the wing from an offensive perspective. But what I've seen this year is a player that is, is has become more a complete player, more dedicated to the defensive side of the game, and is just physically more athletic and stronger than a lot of the players that he's playing against,

which at the college level, at his age, is pretty impressive. So I think that Cutter Go, in terms of pure goal talent, like 40 goals, that's a big number. It takes a special goal score to do that. But I think we're talking about a guy that I view as a consistent 30 goal kind of player at the NHL level,

which if you can get a consistent 30 goal player, that's pretty impressive as well. So I think that he's a pretty darn good player. And this season, he's taken the step. He was pretty, he was good last year. He's even better this year. He is now in 14 games, he's four goals away from matching his goal total from his freshman season. So not bad.

All right, Corey, next one's for you. We went Blues wants to know your thoughts on Delabor Divorski's game after his move to North America. Obviously, he was struggling in the SHL for a last place team there. But since coming over to Sudbury, I think he's got 22 points in 15 games now. Yeah, it looks a little bit better now in Sudbury. It helps turn their season around. Now you add him into that power play with Quentin Mustie and David Goyette. And it's a lot of skill there.

I've watched two or three games of his at the OHL and you see the skill, the hockey set, stand out. You also see why he might have struggled in the SHL, his skating, never an asset. You know, so I'm sure when he was playing against men, the pace there was probably a little tougher. He was an 18-year-old. He looks, you know, it's like, look, you know, quite good in the OHL. World Juniors will be a big test for him coming up here.

Because I think if you want him to be a legit top six, four, never mind a top six center in the NHL, he's going to need to prove with those feet that he can play against faster players that they'll have success. He's going to play against some really fast players on team Sweden, Team USA, who's in his group and Team Canada. And so I'll be curious to see at that tournament. Can he elevate what will be a quite talented team Slovakia

relative to a typical year to potentially an upset urchin. All right. This one's I guess we can kind of take as a group here. But Patrick, because it's such a big question, Patrick McConnell wants to know, how would you fix the Ottawa senators? And I guess my first question here, and I'll direct this to you, Chris, is are the Ottawa senators broken? Because it's been a slower start to the season and the standings for that. But are you seeing things night to night that have you worried about Ottawa?

Yes and no. Like, I definitely, like there are so many pieces there. I mean, I think that the foundation is there. Obviously with, you know, you've got a transition in ownership. you've got now a transition in management. At some point you wonder, will there also be a transition in coaching staff? And how does that dictate?

The good news is you've got core pieces in your system. You've got, you know, you've got a Tim Stutzla, a Jake Sanderson, you know, Brady Kachuk. You've got pieces. And so are they broken? No, I just think that they're not. maybe not as far as we expected them to be. I don't know.

I didn't have super high expectations for the senators this year. But what I do see is a team that, you know, they had the penthouse situation. They've had all these different things. And so I think this is an organization that needs a reset culturally, which I guess comes with a new ownership. And that is something that I think really only mends with time because I don't really have, in terms of the nuts and bolts,

I don't have a ton of concern about where they're going as a group in terms of personnel. But yeah, but I mean, I still think that there's still, you know, there are a few pieces away from, you know, having a competitive team. I think you would probably like to see a more veteran couple of guys come in to aid things and along with the young guys that they do have. but, you know, I think that what's, the ball is already rolling on a lot of the things that need fixing. And I think the step one is to make sure that they solidify that GM position with someone especially capable to do the job long term and to basically set the vision for what this team is. because whatever it was under Pierre Dorian is not where it's going, I don't think.

So somebody else is going to have to reset that, I guess. My answer to this question is strangely similar to the question we got asked last week, Max, about the situation in New Jersey. I think the answer is almost the identical is that in both cases of New Jersey and Ottawa, they are both teams that are in the top 10 in the NHL in goals four per game, while also being in the bottom 10 in the NHL in goals against per game. I think you look at Ottawa and New Jersey and also the other teams like Toronto, Edmonton, Minnesota, etc. And you all see these teams that are just saying, please somebody stop a puck.

Can somebody on this team just make us save a couple of times, a big save a couple of times per game? The other team that's actually in that category of is Tampa Bay with being in the top 10 goal scoring, bottom 10 goals of games, but they didn't have Andre Vasselowski for a large stretch of the season. New Jersey and Ottawa do not have a Vasselowski waiting in the wings that they can just plug into their lineup for the rest of the season. You know, I think you look at Matt Schoegard in Ottawa

and you wonder at what point do they, you know, look at him as an option, as a promising young goalie. You never want to trust your season to a young goalie. Buffaloes are in that the hard way right now. But I think that's possibly what you have to do there is because I don't think Corpusall and Forsberger have shown they can get it done right now. Yeah, I think goaltending is a big part of it, but I think it's just time. I think it's trending in the right direction.

I just look at all the pieces here, and I just can't help but see the bones of a team that's going to be really good for a really long time. And it comes with hiccups, but I, you know, would you love a little bit more out of, you know, a couple guys here or there, sure. But I think it's just a matter of time. And it actually wouldn't shock me if they find themselves back in the playoff race by the end of this season. Goaltending being the biggest question to whether or not they can do it. Yeah, I do like this team. I think this isn't like, oh, they don't have blue liners.

They don't have forwards. I don't think that's the case. I think it's a good team. Yeah, no, I completely agree. I guess this one's a little bit related. but we'll send it to you, Chris. Steve Boven wants to know, what are the HABs missing?

And I think you could probably take this in a couple different ways, but let's take it big picture in the franchise. Yeah, I mean, boy, where do we start? This is another team where, you know, there are pieces. I don't think they have the same, like Ottawa's has better pieces at this point. You know, like in terms of like guys like Stutzelah, Sanderson, you know, there's stuff there. But I think for Montreal, you know,

solidifying the goaltending situation long term, having an answer. I think that the shadow of Kerry Price continues to, you know, to be cast over this team. And it's what is the long term solution and how do you find, you know, how do you find that player?

You know, we've been looking, there's, goaltending is a very difficult position. It's so critical. that if you don't have that solidified, it's really, really difficult, just as Corey was talking about with Ottawa, that's a big, that's a big part of it. You know, this is, this is another team. Like, I, I feel like Montreal completely lacks identity as a, as a, as a, like, what is it?

Where are they going? How is this going to work? You know, you hope that guys like Slavkovsky continue to develop and, and that's going to be key. I think that they need more guys that are, that are kind of going to be part of that next wave of, player. You know, I think that we're starting to wonder, you know, is Martin St. Louis, the long-term answer as a coach for this team? There's a lot of great things that he's done for the franchise. Is it, you know, can they continue to progress?

You know, I think this is also a team that is going to, they have good young defensemen. I still think that, and we'll see, maybe David Reinbacher is going to be that guy. I'm less convinced of that, but they need a number, like a true number one defenseman. Like a lot. And like I said, it could be David Reinbacher. We need time.

Like I love Caden Gully. I like players that are, you know, that are really good players. Are they top tier defensemen on a team that's contending? And I don't see that for them. I don't see that, you know, that Nick Suzuki or Cole Coughfield, who, again, love both those players, have a lot of time for them.

Are they top line players on a team that's contending? Less certain of that as well. So the top tier, like, this is a team that has a lot of middle. And they need, and I'm not calling the Canadians mid, so don't get, don't, all you kids out there. My son calls me mid all the time. He's 11. He owns me. But anyway, like, I really do think that there's, there's just a little too much low, like, there's just not enough top end there.

And that takes a long time to build. And when you have a number one pick, you hope that you added that. And again, it's still very early in this Likovsky story. But I just, I don't see the guys that carry a franchise at this point. That's at, and that's, how do you find that is the, is the. So all you're saying is all they need is a legit starting number one goalie, a number one defenseman and the number one center. Number one center. Yeah.

Those things are typically like because you look at it. You look at it and like it like we see Tampa and it's like, oh, well, you get Stamcoaston, you get Vasselowski. Then you know, you have your kutjur of your point. You know, like it's really hard to do. But yeah. And I, but I'm also saying that there are guys that could potentially grow into certain roles. It's just a matter of will they be. be a lead of the league?

I don't see that. I think there was a point in time where I think there was a hope that Suzuki could be that. I mean, they gave him a big contract. He's like, you know, put the sea on his jersey. It felt like in Montreal he was the answer because they've been searching for that legitimate one center for as long as I can remember, frankly, going back a long time. And it kind of feels like, is Suzuki going to be that? or is he going to be like what Saku Kovu was to Montreal for a while where he's like,

he's really good and you love the character, you love the, you love the competitiveness and he has offense, but he probably may not be like that true high echelon guy. Right. Yeah, but you know what? There was a lot of this too with Dylan Larkin, even when he was Suzuki's age. And age 23, 24, you know, he was putting up 50 points a year and, you know, 23 and 44 actually in the COVID shortened year. Like, I think we do forget sometimes when these teams are.

in the throws of a rebuild, just how much pointwise some of the top guys can suffer when they're not surrounded kind of by what now Dylan Larkin is and you see what the point totals are there. I'm not saying he's Dylan Larkin. They're different profiles of players, but I just think there is a little bit of rhyme in how we talk about, you know, these kind of players at that age when they're the guy on a rebuilding team. Sure. I mean, you know, when Montreal is good, you hope that on their top power play, you'll have Suzuki and Coughfield, but you probably won't have Mike Matheson running your, your first.

power play and you will probably have some more skill around him. Yeah, true. And I think that can elevate. Now, that doesn't mean he's going to be suddenly an 85, 90 point guy. But if he can be that 75, 80 point guy, I think you feel pretty good about that for Montreal. But, you know, to that point, you have to do more too. So, all right, NHL and Atlanta wants to know, is this season or last season is Jason

Robertson the real J. Robb? Corey. Very tough question, because I have found Jason Robertson for a long talk. to be a very tough evaluation. Just because you've seen the scoring over such a long period of time. He's very skilled. He's very intelligent with the puck. Obviously a highly talented player.

But over the time when I've watched him, especially in the NHL, he could be tough to love sometimes with the way he moves around the ice. He always strikes you as the kind of guy who needs somebody else to get him the puck, even though that's obviously not the case. You don't put up 100 points in the NHL if you can't do some pretty special things by yourself and he can. It's probably somewhere in the middle. Like I think he's a great player. I don't like think he's ever going to be like a top 10, 20 overall player in the league though,

which is how tough that skating stride is. I do wonder if we've seen his best season. Like I, you know, which, you know, age 23 season is. off a lot of guys best season. You know, like, and, and if, if that is like, yeah, I mean, but I agree with, with Corey. And you also wonder, too, is when you don't have pace, you know, he is such a smart player. He's poised. He does a lot of things well with the puck.

Makes a lot of great decisions. But the league can find ways to make that harder for you. And I do feel like that's something that maybe is starting to happen a little bit more with him as they, as they make life a little more difficult to him by being, you know, on him harder and on the puck quicker, which, you know, he's not going to win a lot of those one-on-one battles when it comes down to skating and things like that. Woolly Mammoth wants to know is Quentin Byfield finally living up to his second overall draft position, Chris? Well, you know, I think role is such an important thing. And the situation you get put in, you know, you obviously have to be ready for it when you,

get there. And I, to a certain extent, I feel like he's, you know, he's taken the ball and run with it here. And, you know, the question is about living up to the hype. And I, you know, I feel like that draft class in particular, you know, the expectation for LaFranier and Byfield has been recalibrated a little bit. But I do think that the thing about Quentin Byfield that I always try to remember, especially now, is that he was always going to be a longer term. project. There were so many things. And I remember when he first got to the HL. And remember, he went to the HL a year earlier than you're usually supposed to as a junior hockey player. Two years earlier. Two years earlier. Yes, exactly. So, you know,

and that kind of like he had to find his way as a pro. It was not an easy transition for him. You know, there were a lot of habits that he had to be broken of and different things like that. But, you know, is he living up to, he's playing better. There's no question. Is he living up to, Is he living up to the hype of being a number two draft pick? I don't think that's, we've seen that yet. I still don't think we've seen the best of Quentin Byfield yet. I think it's coming in more of a way now that, you know, I believe that that he still is progressing as a player.

But, yeah, but I mean, to be the number two pick in that draft, you probably would want to see more at this point. But I still believe that there's ceiling for him to reach. and and yes, what he is getting closer to, to that. You know, interestingly enough though,

like we probably expected to be like the number two center behind Copatire, you know, and not necessarily like a, you know, a part-time wing and different things that he's done this year. But, you know,

I still have a lot of belief in the player. I like him. He's obviously on a good pace this year. You know, but I still think that there's, were, you know, that book is not yet written on with him. Yeah. We'll see whether he keeps up this pace or not.

But the tools are undeniable. And at the end of the day, he is helping a contender win games. Yep. No question, which is a great place to be at night. I mean, and still only 21 years old. You know, like it's, he still, I think once he gets to that 22, 23, 24 season, we may see the full quitting by field effect by then. All right.

one's for you, Corey, from Bruno Lauren. Besides looking at the performances of a player at junior tournaments, such as the U-18 or the U-20, what is your process in evaluating the projectability of a player that plays limited minutes in men's league such as Liga, S-HL, or K-HL? It really depends on each individual circumstance in terms of how limited those minutes are. If you're trying to watch a guy who plays four minutes in night and extrapolate much good luck, I would say, it's different if they're playing.

And again, those leagues are different levels. at Liga is not the KHL. Certain teams in the KHL are not like other ones. If you go play for, you know, Kundlin, that's not the same thing as playing for a locomotive or CSCA. So those are pretty distinct differences. So if you're, you know, getting regular-ish ice time, like 8, 10, 12 minutes, maybe even an occasional power play thrown in there.

You can learn a little bit more about the player that way. if you're not, you watch the little you can just to get an idea of how the tools look, the skating in particular, at that level, get an idea about his pro and NHL projection. But really, when it comes to evaluating skill, hockey sense, competitiveness, I will probably go back and watch a video of his junior play at the club level of the prior season. you know, even when, like for example, with last season with the two locomotive kids in Simashev and Boots, who at times were playing junior, at times you're playing very limited minutes in the KHL, I watched a lot of their 16-year-old video to get an idea of how they look versus their peers. There were even some, you know, quasi-turments that they kind of played in with the games like Belarus and stuff like that. That kind of helped me get a better perspective of their skill.

So that's typically my process. Now, if you're playing real minutes, like say how like an Anton Zelaya or Costa Holanias is playing this year, that's very different. But when it's very limited minutes, outside of, you know, if you're not talking about the tournaments,

I think you have to go back and watch previous video to do that. I even do that for college players at times. Like when players jump to a college level of draft eligible, outside of a select few, it can be very difficult. Like, you know,

so even, you know, whether it's even like the very best like old power, Ken Johnson, maybe a mid-first like Matt would. I would go back and watch how they looked in junior just because even for, you know, outside like, say, Adam Fantilli and Celebrini, all of those guys are going to hit a wall in college at some point. And you want to see them in an environment where they have a little bit more success

and time with the puck to assess their skill and their hockey sets. Awesome. Great stuff. That is going to do it for us today. Thanks for listening to this episode of The Athletic Hockey Show. prospect series. You can catch more of Chris over at Flow Hockey and on his podcast Talking Hockey Sense. Also going to want to follow us on YouTube at YouTube.com slash at The Athletic Hockey Show. And from right now through the end of the year, you can gift a one-year subscription to the athletic for 1999 or a two-year subscription for 3999. When you visit Theathletic.com slash hockey show, give the gift of the athletic

this holiday season and we'll talk to you soon.