The Athletic Hockey Show - NHL to allow teams to sell advertising on jerseys, Mark Scheifele walks back his end of season comments and re-living the Eric Lindros trade to Philadelphia

Episode Date: August 17, 2022

With Jesse Granger golfing Torry Pines this week, Rob and Sara welcome Sean Shapiro, the Athletic's business hockey reporter to fill in on the roundtable.The crew discusses NHL teams being allowed to sell advertising on jerseys in time for this coming season, Mark Scheifele walking back his harsh comments on the Jets after the season, the NHL-PA searching for a new Executive director, Jack Johnson signing in Chicago, Joel Martin becoming the second black head coach for a North American men's hockey league, as he takes over in Kalamazoo of the ECHL and Jakob Chychrun being linked to the Ottawa Senators.Kevin Kurz joins the roundtable from Long Island to discuss his oral history on the Eric Lindros deal from Quebec to Philadelphia 30 years ago, the controversy that came with it, Jay Snider's manila envelope and a 1992 cell phone, plus Kurzy provides an update on the work still to be done with the Islanders in negotiations with Noah Dobson and Alex Romoanov and those pesky Nazem Kadri rumours that won't go away. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

What's going on, everybody? Welcome to another fine edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. The Wednesday Roundtable Edition. I am Rod Beasel from CBC Sports, joined, as always, by Sarah Sivian and her cat in the background. I know it's a podcast and you can't see the cat, but the cat makes an appearance every single week. How are you? Yeah, so the cat's at the hip. I'm doing great.

How are you? I'm doing good. You know who's doing even better? Jesse Granger, who's not here this week because he's golfing. at Tori Pines. And if you didn't see the videos and pictures he's posting on Instagram, go take a look and you'll be really, really jealous. But I don't care because Sean Shapiro's pinch hitting or jumping over the boards

or whatever sports reference you want to use this week. How are you, Sean? I'm good. I'm good. I don't have Tori Pines golf views, but this is talking to some beautiful people today. So we're good. I tend to get angry at anyone who's doing something that's a lot more fun that I'm doing. And not that this isn't fun, guys, but I'd love to golf Tori Pines in August.

But Jesse will be back next week. No words. You know, it's funny. We were going over some of the topics we were going to discuss today in our producer, Jeff, right on the top of his lineup, put dog days a summer. And it kind of is, August 17th. We're all hockey nerds, admittedly hockey nerds. I want to know what kind of hockey nerd you are, though.

Are you the type of hockey nerd that's, you know, still taking deep dives into what you're going to do this season? You're preparing for the upcoming year. Are you someone who turns hockey off from your brain and everything for a couple of wants to give yourself a rest or are you a nostalgic hockey fan like myself? I love watching old hockey games, old hockey videos, and the summer is when I do that. Sarah, we're going to start with you. What are you doing in the summer?

What are you in the summer? Yeah, I think it depends and it changes. I think after the past few years where it's been kind of a one continuation of the same season over and over, it's been nice to take a few weeks off genuinely and not think about it. I mean, I am obviously a diehard hockey fan, but at the same time, I love it. so much that I have to put like constraints on myself and set boundaries with it because it is my job and I want to create the best content I can. So sometimes you have to take a few weeks

off force yourself, you know. What about you, Sean? Yeah, I am, I use the summer not just in the hockey perspective, but this is everything. I use the summer to catch up on a lot of reading actually. Like there's like, it's funny. Like I go through and there'll be, and a lot of that is hockey reading. Like I actually, I've been meeting to, I'm about halfway through it. Like, I've been meeting to read Bear Town for like. good a year and a half and so i finally was able to like i was able to finally sit down and start reading more of that this summer um and also like i'm not i like the highlights the occasionally but for the nostalgic stuff for me i'm a big when it comes to sports i'm very much the person who

i struggle with the old stuff because if i know who won or what's going to happen i'm i'm more of a like like i i need to it needs to be one of those where it's like something pops on or like i remember who won this so this is still interesting to me but like if I know who won I start to lose the oh really I start to lose the novelty of it like I to me I'm a big like the what could happen next the unscripted part of it um I'm not as much of a big nostalgia watcher for like entertainment like I watched things in the past for for work projects and stuff like that and you can find it interesting but it's to me it's not as much of like like if there's a classic game going like for example, like there's the, there's like the Canadians, uh, Soviet Union, uh, New Year's Eve

Summit Series. Summit Series. Oh, the New Year's. Yeah, that one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you watch that one. And I've like, watched that one just because like I'm a huge goalie nerd. I've like, but like, I know the game's going to end three three.

So like, you know the score is going to, you know the game's going to be three three. So there's no like in the third period when it's, what it's three three and there's a guy coming down the wing. You're like, well, I know he's not going to score. And that bugs you. I'm, I'm the complete opposite. My wife once walked in on me and my best friend watching game three of the 87 Canada Cup. And she's like, really, guys?

Don't you watch it up hockey? And my best friend just looks at her and says, this is why we're buds. Because we can just put on a game from 87 and just, I know it's a 6-5 final, but I loved watching it. That's just what I spend my summer doing, just watching. And I'm with you, Sean. I do a lot of reading too, those hockey books that you didn't get around to reading. You end up doing it.

But all right, that's how we spend our summers. We also spend our summers doing the show, and there's a lot to talk about. And I really want to get your opinions on this because this is one of those things that have been slowly in the making, guys, but now it is official. The NHL are going to allow advertising on jerseys, beginning in the 2022, 23 season. Inevitable backlash will definitely come from fans who say certain jerseys and really all jerseys are sacred, why are you putting ads? There's a lot of rules as to what those ads are going to be, how big they are, where they can go.

now that it's going to happen, Sarah, you for or against? I'm so for it. And all the fans, why don't they like our sport? Why are we the most popular sport? Why don't we make any money? Because we're not doing things. I am very much for putting ads on jerseys. Like that is a harmless way if all the businesses that are going on the jerseys are good,

or at least not bad. I think that's a harmless way to generate money. And I do think the sport needs more money in relatively harmless ways. So I am for this. I mean, we've known this is going to happen for over a year now, though. Like, I mean, it's the Capitals back in last no, last September, the Capitals announced there was going to be Caesar Sportsbook was going to be the ad. And the capitals, that was that was the very, that was kind of the interesting to see what's come out of the woodwork,

to see which companies want to be on an HL jerseys. and is just kind of the more interesting element of this to me right now. Obviously, the Capitals one was unique when it came out first, being Caesars, because they have the sports book in the arena right there. If you go to Capital One Arena, they have the sports book right there.

It's one of the most unique elements of this is going to be, where does the line get drawn? My next question, yeah. Yeah, like that to me is going to be the very interesting thing. Like, because right now there's kind of, it's not going to impact your viewing of the game at all. It's a three by five patch that will either be on the chest or the shoulder.

Some of the teams are, some of the teams are going to intentionally probably put it on the shoulder actually because of A, you're actually going to get more TV viewership of it on the shoulder. If you think about every single time it's on a faceoff, you're going to see zooming it on the shoulder and everything like that. In B, it's a little less intrusive when you're trying to sell it to a fan. if someone puts it on the shoulder, the fan thinks less about it when it's right next to the crest or whatever. But we've got some interesting lines that have been somewhat drawn.

So gambling companies are allowed to be on. These are sports book, but you're only allowed to sell a gambling spot for your home jersey if your home market allows sports gambling. So like the Capitals have Caesars for home games. We don't know what the road jersey sponsor will be yet, but it can't be a gambling one because if you go to say you go to another state or province where a single game betting isn't legal, the ad wouldn't be legal by NHL rules. So it's going to be really interesting to see how far the NHL goes.

And this is a question I've had and I've talked to people from the NHL about like, what's the line between this? Where do we go from? There's this slope, right? So like we're kind of like a ski slope. We're right here. If the bottom is, if anyone's ever watched a finish hockey league game. or NASCAR or NASCAR.

I like it. I think it's fun. No, no comment. I'm not saying whether it's good or bad. It's just, it's the point is you look at that. There's that slope of where, how far do we, do we eventually get there? Do we eventually get to the pot? There was the time where a couple of years ago, Team Sweden sold a shampoo bottle ads on the goalie pads. It's, but I think for long-winded, I think it's good for the, I think you've got to figure out the right way to

stick the landing on certain spaces, but I think it's fine for the game. I think more money coming to the game is better. If you can make sure that the people bringing it in are helping enhance the game, I think it's better for everyone in the long run. And more people in the world watch soccer than any of the other sport in the world. Like, do you, if someone tries to turn on a Premier League game on Saturday, how soon do you forget that there's a giant ad on the jersey? You just watch the sport, and that's what it's going to be. This is exactly what I'm saying, Like all these esteemed sports have this, so it's kind of time. I know.

And people just have this notion that it's just going to devalue everything. And I don't want to see my Montreal Canadiens jersey with an ad. Stop it. Every other sports has it. We talked about classic games off the top. Watch a game from 1987. Look how different that looks. Nothing on the boards, nothing anywhere.

Ads are left, right and center. And anyone who thinks the owners are going to turn away free money. And guys, that's exactly what it is. It's free money. they haven't, you know, been doing this. And I know they've been pumping the brakes a little bit on it. The pandemic, in my opinion, just put this right in the forefront. It's going to happen.

It's not going to turn into NASCAR. It's not going to turn into something, you know, egregious. It's going to happen, get used to it. All right, moving on. Sorry, go ahead. Sean's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. I was going to agree with you. I was going to say one other thing, like the owners,

but there's also the players perspective. You talk about those classic games. And as much as we get nostalgic and we talk and we love to tell stories about Glory Days, the hockey was not like the hockey objectively is not good compared to the hockey. And so, but when you have more money and you look at those games from the 70s, the 80s, there's nothing on the boards, there's players. It wasn't, it was professional sports, but it wasn't the professionalism of where guys are trying to have the carrot to make as much as they do now.

Like the sport is better with more money in it. Yeah. I know someone with more money in it and coming in from Jersey ads and all this stuff, the sport gets better. The athletes get better. We put more money into training and things like that. Like it's better for the sport and it's better for the viewer and everything going forward.

As much as we want to be like all nostalgic about like seeing a guy come down the wing and take an 87 mile an hour slap shot that a goalie somehow whiffs on. Like that's not like that's not good hockey compared to what. happens today. Stop slamming 80s hockey, Sean. Stop slamming 80s hockey. Hockey has also always been a sport that's expensive to play regardless of if they're putting money into it or not. So maybe these things can start bridging the gap where they have like sponsorships. I don't know. I'm just a bit ball in there. No, I think I think it's a good point. I think a lot of fans think that these owners are just sitting back twisting their mustache saying how can we make more money.

It doesn't work that way. It goes back into the game and it's going to happen. You both have covered teams after they've been eliminated from the playoffs. We've all done it. If you remember when the Jets missed the playoffs, Mark Schifley had this little quote, he said he had to, quote, think about my career and what's going to be best for me. I'm sure you guys know in Canada, a quote like that from someone on Canadian team just explodes. This week, he kind of did a little bit of backpedaling. He said it turned into a media disaster. He said, quote, first of all, I started off the question that I was asked by saying, I love it here.

I've been here 10 years. It's an amazing community. It's been amazing to me, and I want to be a Winnipeg jet. And then everyone seemed to start a recording after that. It's kind of one of those things that I was confident that I was going to be around. It's amazing how players have to be a little careful and because quotes are edited in that context. But the explosion for this one was pretty big, wasn't Sean?

Yeah. And to me, the biggest one is there's two lessons on it. There's the whole, we're so much now of that, and it makes our jobs easier, I'm harder, sorry, hard, it makes our jobs much more difficult, not easier. There are times where, I'm

sure Sarah can tell stories, I've got stories where there's times where you've had a great conversation with a player or something like that, and then all of a sudden you see five words from the conversation on an Instagram post, and you're like, well, that's, like, even, like, that's not the, that's not

exactly what we were talking about, or, where did this like okay yes they said that but that's not what they meant or like like so players it's it's made journalism harder and I'm not trying to get on my high horse of capital j journalism but like it's it puts players on guard like this is a type of thing we're like we want we want that honest answer we want that's that's better for all of us if someone's talking honestly we want players to want to win if you're a fan you want players to want to win you want them to put pressure on their teams. But then it becomes, when it becomes so just to a sound bite or social media posts like graphic or whatever, it becomes this space where you're like, I understand why players

start to get a little bit jilted and scared of the media. It's kind of a frustrating reality we live in. Like, honestly, I loved what he said. It's like you want your players to put pressure on your team to win. That's something you should want as a fan. It's horrible what you're saying. I have a longstanding beef with Bardown and they have me blocked. on Twitter and Instagram because I call them out. I'm like, this is my quote and you guys randomly took it, did not tag me and are misconstruing it. How is this legal?

I don't know. I'm going to go sue them, but not really. I just have this like, it is so frustrating because then you're so right. They don't want to talk to you. And it's like this whole thing. They have to watch what they say. So I just, we just need to be better.

It's not that. It's either you're being lazy and not doing the whole quote or you're farming for, interactions and stuff on something that wasn't even your quote. It's the most frustrating thing. Social media's killed it. And not that Pete players weren't misquoted before social media. I don't want to paint it that way. But how many times it has been a press conference going on?

And you guys are like me. You're on Twitter following it. And you'll see five or six people who are at the press conference quote them. And they're all different quotes, even though it's the same roundabout quote. It's different. And it's because it's got to get out there quick. It's got to go viral. It's got to, you know, it's really hurt it.

And I agree with Sean in that there's, you know, people slam hockey players all the time for, you know, get the puck in deep, good bunch of guys in the room, give 110 percent. Well, this is the reason it happens. This is the reason. We need to be better if we want better answers. That's my whole thing. Some of my best friends in the world still look at me and go, you friggin media, you guys did. And I'm like, yeah, I know.

Like it happens. But yes, we need to be better. And he kind of backpedaled. And he said, I'm used to being the cliche king. And this is the one time he kind of went away from being. that guy and look what happens. It explodes. So yes, we need to be better. A couple other things before we go to break. And I want to mention, I forgot to mention this off the top. Kevin Kerr's going to be joining us to talk some Islanders. And he did a fantastic piece on the Eric Lindross trade 30

years ago, believe it or not. So be sure to stick around for that. But a few more things before we get to break. Jonathan Huberto, along with a whole bunch of other people pledging his brain to be, what's the word I'm looking for here, examined after he passes away. for brain injuries. We've seen other players and other athletes do this before. And it comes five years after Ben Lovejoy did it. Only good news, in my opinion. Sarah? Oh, yeah, absolutely. That's awesome. I don't know. It's kind of weird to be like, yeah, that's awesome that he's pledging his brain. But that's the right thing. I don't know. Good for him. Sean? I mean, to, I mean, this is a topic that Sarah's right on. There's no, it's only good

news if we're having players, A, caring about this and B, Bill, and willing to put action to it, even if it comes hopefully many, many, many, many, many years from now with when they could examine these brains. It's also something that it's for, to come from Hubertow obviously isn't, not, I can say it's not a surprise, but it's also interesting to see as someone who is an Alan Walsh client, and we've seen Alan has been very vocal about pushing on this. pushing this with the league and calling out Gary Betman for his denial of the connections here to see one of Allen's clients do this. I'll just say it fits with what has definitely come from Octagon as well from that agency.

So it's not surprising. It's a good thing. It can only help everyone. And it's hopefully, I mean, but it's just one of those things that's also at the same time. It's kind of unfortunate that this is the type of thing that can only be studied posthumously, unfortunately. Yeah, like I said, it's kind of a weird story to say, oh, yeah, this is great when he's dead. But yeah, I mean, anything to help in that situation, I think is a good one. A couple of other things, guys.

In April, the NHLPA formally announced they're going to put together a committee to look for a replacement for Donald Fear as the executive director of the NHLPA. This week, they sent out another press release saying they've retained the services of the firm Russell, Reynolds, and associates to help help out with this. I don't know about you guys. I have this feeling, don't hold your breath. I mean, this hardly to me seems like a situation where it's like, well, in the next coming days, we're going to have a new executive director of the PA. This is, they're going to drag their feet on this. What do you think?

Sean? This is going to be at least four to five months. Like, this is going to be at least four to five months. And the other thing, too, is the NHLPA, if you look at how things have been run by the PA, and I don't know if it's, if it leads to him getting the role. role or not, but Matthew Schneider has already effectively taken over as the de facto number one. Like when back at the draft, when the league announced this big partnership with, with Bio Steel, and they made this big deal about the PA and the league coming together. Donald Fair wasn't

there. It was Matthew Schneider, who was the PA representative there. And so the league is, I don't know if there's breadcrumbs to that where Matthew Schneider even wants that job. I have no idea. But it's, it's not like there is a, it's not like the, it's not like the, The concept of change and moving things around is not something the PA is working to move quickly. They want to do it in theory, but they already have one guy who's kind of acting as the executive director. Yeah, who's kind of doing it. And maybe he's one of the candidates. Maybe he's not.

And then I do think it is good that they have retained outside services because that's one of the things, one of the issues that this league definitely needs many times is someone who's actually a professional outside of the hockey world to look at. things and so that doesn't have buddies doesn't have buddies in the in those rooms like that's what many times will we see well he's hiring his buddy right so yeah so that that to me is the most important thing about this where is it and is is that but is that a lip service where we're going to use this this this consulting firm to justify a decision or are we going to let this consulting firm do its job and find the best candidate so that's going to be the interesting discussion for another day once we start to see names that actually surface of who may be running the PA next because it's going to be a big spot. I mean,

it's going to be, it's going to be negotiate the next CBA. It's going to be the person who, whose job is to effectively go head to head with Gary Bettman. It's going to be, it's a very big job to fill. And you actually want them take time to get it right. It's just like, it's kind of one of those funny things in sports. But like, like, sometimes it seems like, oh, they haven't hired a new coach and it's been two weeks. And you're like, well, if you were to hire a top-level decision maker and any other. field, why would you take two weeks? You would take three months. A long longer. So it's actually, I have no issue with it. I'm actually happy that they're not rushing this

because it's a higher the PA needs to get right. Exactly. You said it all. That 10 part is my thing. Like I'm not very optimistic, but I am like cautiously optimistic and I want them to take their time. Like let's have a good person up next because there were obviously multiple problems with the current or former situation. Yeah, to use your coaching analogy, it's not as if the season starts next week and you need a coach behind the bench. Yeah. You know, if you've got someone running it, get the job done right, especially with, you know,

labor discussions right around the corner. Before we go, guys, I don't know how much of the world juniors you've been watching. If you have, you've seen quite a few empty seats. Hockey Canada has come out and said that because the tournament, It's been in the summer and the increased scrutiny over, you know, their scandal. That's what's contributed to, you know, fans not coming. That coming from the editors of No Shit magazine. Thanks, guys.

I appreciate it. The average attendance, 1,319 people per game. Big name sponsors have pulled, you know, their money. There's nothing on the ice. this just seems really, really weird for the world juniors, especially, you know, north of the border where this is usually such a big thing at Christmas time. Has it just seemed weird to you guys as well, as much as it has to me, Sean? Yeah, it's, it's something where it's like it's, it's, I know it's happening because I've read a story here too about, oh, X prospect is doing Y or seeing a highlight,

but that's, that's about as far as I've had any interest in it. I mean, it's, it's, a, it's very weird when we know, like, it feels like, it feels like the real world junior is still four months away, right, like in December. Like the one, like, I'm like, okay, I'll actually watch that one. Like, on Boxing Day, I will watch that. I am, I have no interest and I have very little interest in August. And then the other thing that's just kind of, I need to think of the right word to use because that first thought is comical, but like, the main reason we're shoehoring this into August

was money, where it was like, the whole thing was like, well, we lost X amount of money. We need to make sure we do this because we have to recoup some of the money. And with the sponsors pulling out and the lack of attendance, really the only financial backer that's making this go is TSM. Honestly, right now, like TSN's decision to say like, okay, well, we still, we paid the rights for this and we're going to still air this. Like, basically, this is a, well, TSN needs an August filler. If you look at the tournament that way, it's doing its job,

but it's in all other realms, it's, it's, you're like, why did we, why are we trying to shoehorn this into August when the, there's going to be the real thing in December. And it's not making, it's not recoup. I don't know for sure, but there's, I can start doing the napkin math. There's no way it's recouping the money they thought it would recoup. Oh, yeah. And some of my favorite people are covering it.

And I'm watching some of them on TV. And it's just like, seems very hard to make this, like, as interesting as it usually is. It just feels like you're at like a summer camp. You know what I mean? Like, it's not the same allure with all, like, the music. Maybe I'm just like not thinking about that in my head. But it really isn't the same as like a round. Christmas. And doesn't it feel, it feels, the other thing that feels weird about it to me is that

there's another one before the next draft. Because like for someone who I don't really, I, I, I will watch Royal Junior and I don't pay, don't pay super close attention to prospects. We have prospect people who do that. But like for someone for me, it's like, like, like, I'll watch it around Christmas. I'm like, okay, I'll keep that name in mind for next June. Right. Like, there's things that that pop up for me. Having another one between this and the draft makes it feel less important to me. Because like, I'm like, okay, well, I'll just catch the one that actually is played before the draft. That's another factor to me on this where it's like, as someone who is a very loose consumer of prospects, that is the, like, well, there's something going to come in before the next draft.

That one will be more determined of who gets picked 15th overall and wherever we are next June. Obviously, the hockey Canada scandal has a lot to do with this as well, especially when it comes out that, that, you know, where that money was being spent, I'm sure a lot of people say, well, then I'm not going to spend my money or give you my money for what you have been spending it on. But I agree. For me, even scandal aside, it just feels, it, it comes hand in hand with Christmas for me. It really just does. I'm so used to being on my couch with brothers and cousins and everyone else. And hey, Canada play sooner, you know, and you watch it. It just doesn't work now. It doesn't work with another one around the corner. It's just not working.

But I think we all saw that one coming. The other thing we see coming, Kevin Kerr is going to be joining us after the break. We'll talk Islanders. We'll talk Lindrosse trade. Trust me, you don't want to miss this one. So off the top of the show, we talked about what kind of hockey fan we are in the summer. And I said I'm super, super nostalgic. And I have a feeling our next guest is going to get pretty nostalgic, but his recent piece was just fascinating. Kevin Kerr's, who covers the islanders, but we're not going to talk with the islanders right off the top, is joining us now. How are you, Kevin? Good. Good. How are you guys doing? We're doing good. You know, we talked nostalgia. We just passed the 30th anniversary of, in my opinion, the second biggest

trade in NHL history, Eric Lindra's heading to the Philadelphia Flyers. And I will admit, I saw your piece on the athletic. And like the idiot that I am, I came this close to skipping it. Because this trade's been analyzed for 30 years. I've heard everything, I literally in a cocky, arrogant fashion, I've heard everything there is to know about this trade. What the hell could I learn from this piece? And boy, am I glad I decided to actually click on it because there was so much of everything.

New info, documents, secret phone calls being made hours after surgery. Literally everything was in this piece. So let's start right there. And let's start with how you started in the piece. plain Manila folder in the Philadelphia Flyers archives labeled Jay Snyder's File 1992, and that was like the holy grail for hockey historians. Yeah. So, you know, I worked in Flyers PR back, this is more than a decade ago, and I remember

seeing this folder on my old boss's desk. And I think he had unearthed it because Jay Greenberg, who just tragically passed away not too long ago wrote really the definitive Flyers history book. And his chapter about the Lindros trade, I mean, it's, it's so detailed and it's, he really gets into the weeds with everything. And it's, it's really fascinating. And so I'm pretty sure that this folder was sitting on my boss's desk because Jay used it, Jay Greenberg, that is, used it to research his piece. But I always remembered it. Because just as someone who was a kid when the Lindross trade happened, that really was sort of the event that got me into hockey, quite frankly, because the flyers weren't very good. And in Philadelphia,

it was all Eagles and everybody, you know, Eagles were obviously always at the top of the totem pole there. But the flyers were sort of off the radar at that point. And then when they made the Lindross trade, it sort of rejuvenated the fan base. And I think it got a lot of younger fans into the flyers as well. And I was one of them. So I remember that folder there. And I remember being fascinated, flipping through it and seeing what was inside of it. And so, you know, this piece with the 30th year I didn't want to write something that was simply just a rehash of the trade itself. I wanted to find some sort of a new perspective. And Jay Snyder, I reached out to him.

He was great. You know, I had all of his notes. So I emailed him a couple documents and said, what does this mean? What does this mean? And he sort of walked me through it. And also, Ed Snyder's, his ex-wife, one of his ex-wife, I guess Martha, who was just fantastic. And you can tell she still really has an effect. for their time together and still really thinks highly of him. And it meant a lot to her, too. And,

you know, when you're when you're the wife, you know, she painted it more as it was a partnership with with her and Ed. And that's probably something that a lot of people didn't realize that, you know, back then it was obviously he's the man in charge. He's the owner. But his wife was with him every step of the way. And she was sort of advising him on on what to do. So the, the memories that she said were still pretty fresh in her mind 30 years later. Like I said, one of the most dramatic years in hockey history, given just the hype of Eric Lindrosse coming in, not being able to sign him because he just didn't want to play for the Nordique for a number of reasons. Then he gets traded to two different teams. And like I said, I'd heard all that. And then

some of the finer points of this story really jumped out to me. What was the one thing that really made you raise your eyebrows? Because for me, it was when Ed Snyder, hours after having his throat cut open for surgery, had snuck a cell phone. Remember, 1992. Cell phones were not what they are now. Snuck a cell phone into surgery to say, this fucking deal's going through. And meanwhile, what I was telling

my wife about this, his poor wife was in the rating room thinking something had gone wrong in surgery. Like to me, that was the one piece of the story that blew my mind. What really jumped out to you? That was, there were two things. And that was certainly one of them. Because I knew, as Martha Snyder was telling me this story,

I knew this was something that no one had ever heard before, no one had ever reported before. And she even framed it that way that she's going to tell me this story that most people don't know about. And, you know, it was mentioned, I think. It has been mentioned in some of the various recaps and anniversary pieces about this trade over the, you know, over the many years since it took place that Ed did have cancer. And it wasn't thought to be a serious cancer, thyroid cancer. I don't know in terms of severity. I'm not a cancer expert. But the way she framed it was that it wasn't overly serious. so it wasn't life-threatening. But still, cancer surgery is cancer surgery.

And it's happening in the middle of this monumental trade and a transaction that's going to alter the face of the franchise for the immediate future and for decades to come, as it did. And so, you know, and you put it well, Rob, the fact that Ed snuck a cell phone into surgery and I don't even know what a 1992 cell phone looks like. I was going to say, watch State by the Bell for five minutes and you'll figure out what it looks like. That's a great point. Yeah.

Yeah, this is even, yeah, I guess that is around the same era. But it was interesting to me that Ed's initial reaction was, oh, the hell with it. And then he called back five minutes later. And, you know, Ed's reputation is being that highly competitive, fiery guy. And no one's ever going to get the best of them. And I think I can just see him stewing for five minutes, getting screwed, basically, by the president of the Nordique, saying, no, this is not, this is not right. And then the other part of the story, too, was when Jay told me that his, his mother,

who is not Martha, Ed's first wife, was Mernah Snyder, Jay Snyder's mother, said that back when Wayne Gretzky was not yet draft eligible, she was telling Ed to just draft him anyway and go, go fight the league on it. Wayne was 17 at the time, but it was, you had to be 19 to get drafted in the NHL back then the late 70s. And so, you know, the fact that that resonated with Jay years later, that here comes basically someone who's being compared to Wayne Gretzky as the quote, next one, Jay was going to, you know, do nothing, stop at nothing to at least get in the mix and at least pursue this highly sought after player that was at the time someone who I think

a lot of people thought could revolutionize the game. Okay, I promise I'm going to stop dominating this interview, guys. I have one more and then we'll let you. We'll let you. Because like I said, I found this, it's so fascinating. Obviously, the piece going the other way with Forsberg was just so big. I know he wasn't the Peter Forsberg he would come to be. But when I saw the original trade offers in Jay Snyder's handwriting, which is just crazy to see, and it was Forsberg or Butseyev, what would the world have been like if the Philadelphia Flyers had Peter Forsberg and Eric Lindross in 1990?

That was the other thing that really jumped to me. That was a possibility. It was. The Flyers at the time, and this is what this was part of the story that was interesting to me, is they didn't want to rebuild. They didn't want to tear it all down and rebuild. Now, you know, they are obviously giving up a whole bunch of quality players to Quebec, and they didn't know what Forbesberg would become.

But as you read in the piece, you know, there was one Swedish scout that worked for the Flyers in particular that was in love with Peter Forsberg and he didn't want to see him go. And he would have been reluctant even to do the trade one for. one. So, you know, it was interesting to me that this wasn't a transaction that everybody on the flyer staff was saying, this is a home run, let's do it no matter what. There was some debate involved. And yeah, you're right. If, you know, Eric Lindross and Peter Forsberg would have been a dominant one-two center pair. I mean, they're both still in the top 20, I think the top 17, even, and points per game in NHL history. Now, neither are them even reached a thousand games due to

injury, but that just reflects how dominant they were in their primes. And, you know, so, but getting back to my original point, the Flyers did not want to rebuild. They wanted to hold on to Rod Brindamore. And that, I think, was the sticking point. If they include Brindamore in that trade, they would get to keep Peter Forsberg. And they would have sent, you know, Biatislav Boussayev off to play his 100 career NHL games in Quebec and Colorado. That would have been, that would have been something else, because we all know what Peter Forsberg became. And, you know, that's obviously the name that everybody looks like that trade now and says, well, the Flyers lost this trade because of Peter Forsberg. But it's, this is one of those trades where I'm not sure you can just paint it as black and white,

who won and who lost, because there were so many other factors involved, including trying to get a new building off the ground, the now Wells Fargo Center. That certainly played into Jay's decision making. And business, you know, from the business perspective, that makes the trade seem even, you know, make, it makes a little bit more sense from the flyer side when they have this new building coming along. They're going to have to fill. So you've been an expert on the flyers forever and especially this time period. And as Rob says, like so many people know so much about this specific trade. But when you were writing this story, was there any kind of like, what was your favorite fun tidbit that you uncovered? You know what? Just going through the folder

and seeing all of the little notes that if you go back to the trade, it's, if you go back to the trade, you know, Lindrosk got traded to two teams, right? And there's one document, and I didn't include it in the piece. I later tweeted it out. The fact that the Rangers actually did have, I probably have it right here. The Rangers actually did have a trade in paper with the Quebec Nordiques. And it was, I think it was Tony Amante, three first round picks, John Van Biesbrook. And the fact that the Rangers had a deal with Quebec on paper,

And the flyers didn't have that. It just makes you think, well, how the hell did he end up going to Philadelphia when there was an agreement on paper between the two teams? And obviously, I think the rules were a little bit looser then now with the league. There's these trade calls and it's not official. The trade call goes through. So there was a lot of just he said, he said, she said, whatever, however you want to put it back then. And that was something the arbitrator had to figure out. But that was a little surprising to me that here's this page.

I'm holding in my hands. Here's the trade agreement between the Rangers and the Quebec Nord-Ease for Eric Lindross. Why the hell didn't this hold up with the arbitrator? I was, I'm curious a little more on the background, Kevin, for you of when did you just drive to Philly and they hand you the folder? Did you have to go in, like, are you in the, are you in the conference room under lock and key? Like, I have it like. I have it right here still. I have to give it back. So, like, if you look, here's like, here, If you can see this, it's like Radisson Hotel and he has these like scrolled out on paper. And it took me a couple hours just to read through everything because I didn't want to miss any major, major tidbits.

Can you hold that folder up one more time? So we'll send it on Twitter so people can see it. Yeah. There we go. I'll probably get a good amount on eBay for this thing. No, I should give it back if I ever want to get led in that building. everything. Changing PR staffs there.

Yeah, but I do have, I do have, I worked in the, I worked for the PR staff for a few years. So I still, you know, they still trust me for some reason. And I do have to get it back. That was one of the things that popped when I was reading this. Just a, so there's a at the, I spent part of my life living in Austin, Texas, and randomly at the University of Texas library in their hospitality department, they have the live Lincoln Cavalieries like collection of like items from, like, like with the old Olympia contracts and everything that just like kept at the University of Texas in Austin.

And I went to, I once went to look through and they're like, okay, you have 45 minutes. There's going to be a librarian looking over your shoulder and you can't touch anything. And so like that's when I first read your story. I was like, okay, how is, is there a flyers? Like, is there a flyers person looking over Kevin's shoulder while he's going through this and who's so? I mean, Nicholas Cage stole the declaration of independence. anything is accessible, right? What you said, it was like the Wild West back then.

You know what I mean? Like it was a matter of, you know, even the 10 days it took for an arbitrator to award him to the Philadelphia Flyers. Some of the things that were being brought up just makes me laugh as if it wasn't even a matter of who said, you've got a deal first. It was the fact that Marcel O'Boo had given them the Lindrosse's phone numbers to say, hey, you can call them. And they originally had said, no one's calling the Lindrosse's until a deal is done. And, you know, Neil Smith, I've seen him do interviews about this. And he was just like, I was so done with this trade. I didn't even want Lindross anymore.

It was just such a crazy time. And to think, could you imagine that going like going on right now? It'd almost be comical to think of a trade going through like that for the biggest prospect, one of the biggest prospects ever. Yeah. It really does reflect how, how different things were and how, you know, these various events throughout time just, just change, change the course of how things are done on a permanent the basis moving forward. And you're right. It's, it was a strange result because the,

the primary reason, at least is my understanding, that the Flyers were awarded Eric Lindross is because the Quebec Nordiques gave the Flyers the Lindrosse's number. And Russ Farwell, who was the GM at the time, had a conversation with Eric because there was some concern that Eric might not want to go to Philadelphia, because they already refused to play for two other places, um, as a, as a teenager. Um, and, um, and, and, um, and, um, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, And the fact that they handed that phone number over to Jay Snyder to Russ Farwell in order to make that call. That was really the. Checkmate.

That was really, yeah, that was a big moment, I think, for the arbitrator and in the Flyers argument was that, listen, they gave us his number. They told us we had a deal. We called Eric. He's on board. And then all of a sudden, they hear he's getting traded to the Rangers. How much, Kevin, how much do you think your current beats general manager saw this story and then went and burned a bunch of files this week? Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, what's in his desk drawer? That's not anything we'll ever see.

All right, well, speaking of that, the Lindross trade was 30 years ago. Is it going to be 30 years before Cadre actually puts on an Islander jersey? Because I feel like this thing's never going to happen. Yeah, it seems, you know, it's so hard to get information. I've exercised everyone I can call about this damn thing. You know, as I wrote a couple weeks ago, there was one source I talked to who's with another team who said that he had heard some rumblings that the Islanders were pursuing cadre. And there's been other reports out there. I think Frank Saravale reported that they offered

them seven by seven. So, you know, if you go back to last September, but before I got here, that's when Lou seems to drop the announcement of all these sightings, whether it's free agents or pending restricted free agents. You know, they still have no Adopsin as a restricted free agent who is a huge part of their future and who had a great second half and is, you know, does look like that emerging number one defenseman that every team needs right now. He's still technically a pending RFA. I do believe that I would be surprised if that deal wasn't done by now. And then the other one they have is Alexander Romanov,

who they traded the 13th overall pick in the first round for at this most recent draft for Montreal. He's still a pending RFA. So there's still some business to get done. They'll probably all get dropped on the same day. Who the hell knows when that day might be? I hope it's not a Saturday night at 8 o'clock. I hope it's at some point a reasonable hour.

That's my holy wish at this point. One little piece of rumor that's been flying around, Simeon Varlamov possibly heading to Vegas, seeing as I think they're having some goaltending issues, aren't they guys? Robin Leonard gone for the year with that hip surgery. Any validity to this from what you're hearing? Well, you know, Varlamov, I think it has to be mentioned. He has a 16-team-no-trade list. And so I don't know if Vegas is on that list or not, but it would make sense. But, you know, Lamarillo has been pretty direct when asked about his goaltending that he likes having the tandem of Ilya Sorokin and Semyon Varlamov. And the islanders don't have anybody that could logically fill the backup role. And as strong as Ilya Sorokin was last year, and I'm a big believer in him just

based on what I've seen myself, people I've talked to around the league. I think this kid is the real deal. I think he's going to be a hell of a goalie. I think he's the franchise goalie here for at least the next half decade. But he's still played, I think it's only 74 career games. And there was a stretch last year where he was given the bulk of the workload, and it looked like it was getting to him a little bit. Now, you know, I know the schedule was compacted, so that probably didn't help.

But, you know, if you're the islanders, you play such a defensive style, you rely so much on your defense and your goaltending. Do you want to trade a guy like Varlamov who is as solid a number two goalie as there is in the NHL, in my opinion? Do you want to trade him only to leave a hole that you'd have to fill with, you know, God knows who they would get to fill that because we see, well, I've seen the options that Vegas has right now. So I don't think it'll happen unless they're really desperate, unless they end up having to give Cadre nine million a year. I would think they're going to try to subtract somewhere among the forward group if that deal does end up happening. Kevin Kerr is the man who has GMs everywhere locking their filing cabinets. We're really glad you had the opportunity to come on and talk about that manila envelope and the Islanders.

Thanks so much for doing this. We'll talk to you soon. Yep. Okay. Thanks, guys. Stick around after the break. Rapid Fire. All right, guys, my favorite time of the show and yours, Rapid Fire time.

Sean, I know you're pinch hitting here. So as it states in the title, quick answers. Here we go. Jacob Chikrin linked to the Ottawa senators. They do need a top 4D guys. And Pierre Doria, just busy off season. Your thoughts on this one. Sarah, we'll start with you.

What a time to be alive for sense fans. Like that's low key. I don't know, the best off season. I don't know, maybe. But for me, they got way better and they could get even more better. So good for them. Yeah, for me, great.

I mean, it's been a good offseason, really great offseason for Ottawa, and you're now in a spot where they go to that. You start to conceivably look at them, especially if they had, even before Chitrin, you're talking about they're in that conversation for a playoff spot. And that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's for the news for Ottawa, your fan of the senators. Yeah, like Sarah said, what a time to be a fan of the senators. Yeah. Moving on number two, Jack Johnson signing with Chicago. You can tell the Blackhawks want to get players who maybe they could. deal at the deadline for picks, but they still want to suck enough to get a possible lottery

pick. Your thoughts on the Jack Johnson deal? We'll start with you on this one, Sean. I think they're probably selling players on short-term apartment leases and being traded on January 1st. I'm sure that's kind of the thing where you get a call from Chicago of like, hey, we need some people to play games the first half of the season and then just give us, we'll help you find another spot to play by the deadline.

So it feels just like that. Yeah, good for Jack. jump and it's like, okay, hell yeah, I'm still going to be able to play. And I can do that exactly. Like maybe get trade, see how it goes. Maybe get traded at the deadline. Maybe I don't know, not that I'm ending his career for it. Sarah's just retiring people on the show. Jack, you're done. And finally, Joel Martin has been hired as the head coach of Kalamazoo and the ECHL becoming the second current black coach of a North American men's professional

hockey team, hopefully opening the doors for others. This is kind of like our Huberto story. Only good news here, right? Yeah, as horrible as some news with Hockey Canada, as in other allegations have been this offseason, there's also been so many positive coaching and GM hirings. And I feel like, yes, there could be more women and people of color in higher ranking positions that they have to start somewhere or it's never going to happen. So I feel like this summer was really helping that move along. So good vibes for it. Yeah, it's the very cliche.

I'll give the very cliched hockey answer of it'll be, it's once we move to the spot where this is not a story, that's when we're in the better spot in the world. And this higher only moves us closer to that. I'm not saying it's astronomical, but just each step is a step, right? Absolutely. Sean, thanks so much for jumping in here, man. really appreciate it's been fun i know you're not going to be golfing tory pines next week or co-host no i will not be uh i'll i'll ask him why my invite got lost in the mail on that one so

uh it's the point of the show we talk about what you're working on over the next week so what do you got what do you got on tap for the next little while so it's uh for me summer's been august for me is a lot of slow bill till september but one thing that is do have coming out this week there's that i don't know if you guys watched or talked it all about that that that summer three-on-three-league, that three ice. They play their championship weekend this Saturday in Vegas. So I've got kind of got an update on kind of how year one of that league came together and came out and what they're kind of looking forward to in the future and to see where

that goes. So otherwise, it's a lot of long-term projects and phone calls and connecting with people. So my job's a little bit easier when it's busier. Sarah, dare I ask. Three weeks of a row, Sarah has said she's enjoying her summer. Yeah. I have my farm now. The grillies are fighting, my little kitten and my puppy, but I have not written the story. I'm waiting for something to figure out what I'm doing with my life.

Watch the 1987 Canada Cup final between. Maybe I will. Good games. Thanks a lot, guys. Thanks to you for listening. I want to let you know a couple of things before we go. Andrew Mangiopani joined Sean Chintillian Haley and Haley's Alvian this week on the Athletic Hockey Show. So make sure go give that a listen.

The second thing I want to let you know or at least request, follow us on your favorite podcast platform. Don't forget you leave a rating and a review helps us out a lot. And right now you get an annual subscription to the Athletic for just a dollar a month or six months when you visit the athletic.com slash hockey show. We're going to be back on Thursday with Ian Mendez and down goes Brown. For Sarah and Sean, I'm Rob. Be sure to join us next week because Jesse will be back.

Yes, we'll talk golf, but we'll also talk Stanley Cup because we're going to be speaking to, Phil Pritchard, the keeper of the cup. I want to know what that thing's been through throughout this offseason. So be sure to tune into that. We'll talk to you next week.