The Athletic Hockey Show - NY Islanders force game seven vs Tampa Bay. Nikita Kucherov injury. Montreal Canadiens look to eliminate Vegas Golden Knights tonight

Episode Date: June 24, 2021

On the Thursday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show, Ian Mendes and Sean McIndoe discuss the New York Islanders overtime victory over Tampa Bay which will force game seven in the Stanley Cup semi-final. They guys praise the old building at Nassau Veterans memorial coliseum in Long Island and the fans that hope it will be able to host Stanley Cup games, one last time before they move into their new building.The guys dissect the non call on the cross check to Nikita Kucherov and what h9is absence might do for the Bolts in game seven.Plus Jesse Granger of the Athletic Los Vegas stops by to discuss the Golden Knights and Habs who play game 6 in Montreal tonight, and Jesse provides tips to bet on Conn Smythe Trophy long shots.Finally, Ian and Sean take a look back in this week in hockey, with significant changes to the game with the adoption of the loser point in OT, John Zeigler's legacy and the Flames moving from Atlanta to Calgary. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

All right, welcome back, everybody. It's another edition of the Athletic Hockey Show, Ian Mendez and Sean McAdoe with you on this episode of the podcast. In the next hour or so, we'll set up Game 7 between the Tampa Lightning and the New York Islanders. We'll analyze what Nikita Kutcherov's absence might mean for Tampa and how on earth the referees missed the cross check that sent Kuch out of game six. And if that was the last ever game at the Coliseum with Anthony Beauvilliers' overtime winner,

is that the greatest send-off ever to an NHL arena in league history? We'll also talk about Vegas and Montreal. Of course, we'll do that with Jesse Granger when he drops by for Granger Things and we'll chat about Peter DeBoers' goalie gamble. And I'm going to make sure I tell Sean all about why it's critical, it's vital, historically speaking, why the Montreal Canadiens close out these series in game six. And this week in hockey history, we'll look back at the NHL adopting the three-point system

and John Ziegler's legacy. as league president, but as we kick off this show, Sean, I need to bask in my own glory for just a moment, because I know you saw this on Twitter Wednesday night. We give you the credit for being the guy that you saw the Leafs coming, the 3-1 collapse, you saw the HABs, you saw all of it happening, the HABs hanging with Vegas. I just want to take a moment to bask in the glory of in the intermission

leading into overtime last night. I joined in the Twitter game of pick your overtime winner. And I don't like playing the game of one guy per team. I'm more of just pick one guy, one team. And Sean, I tweeted out about 10 minutes before it happened. I said, Anthony Beauvillier is sending this sucker to a game seven. And you nailed it. And full credit.

I mean, I'm kind of the big picture prediction guy, but I don't do the specifics all that well. You nailed it. And yeah, I give you credit because this isn't one of those things. where you didn't pick a guy from each team. Yeah. You picked one guy, one team to win, and you nailed it, which is the way it should be. That's pick, pick one and live with that.

And you did it and you nailed it. I would have liked a little more detail. I mean, you could have gone into how the goal was actually going to break down. But, you know, for a first prediction, that was pretty good. Yeah, it was Blake Coleman, right, who coughed up the puck? Yeah. I should have had, you know, I'm just feeling Blake Coleman is setting up the winner, and that would have just been.

That would have absolutely been there. Well, I mean, that's become the Islanders patented overtime player, right? Like, the Canadians have perfected the overtime 210. But the Islanders is the let's get the other team to pass the puck to us directly in the slot for an easy scoring chance in overtime, and it's working for them. So it'll be interesting to see which, if those two teams meet in the final, who can get their overtime game plan in place first. Yeah. And you know what? And it's interesting because that might have been the last game. Wednesday night

theoretically could have been the last game ever in the Nassau Coliseum, right? And I think if, and part of the reason why I pick Bovillier to score, Sean, is I think the greatest moment in that building's history is a game six overtime moment, right? Bob Nystrom scores, wins the cup, game six. And I thought in my mind, I'm like, you know what, I could see there's some sort of symmetry here if, in fact, the lightning win this series. Maybe the Islanders go out with a game six overtime win. But then it got me thinking, too, I'm like, man, if that was, if that was the last game ever in Long Island, where does that rank in terms of like arena sendoffs? Because I'm having a hard time. And you're so good with hockey history. Like, has there ever been an NHL arena sendoff

better than what the Islanders put to? And of course, they don't want that to be. be the case. But if this is it, this might be the greatest ending ever, right? And it does. We should say it feels like we've been saying, is this the last game at the Coliseum for like the last two months? It feels like there have been so many. But yeah, it's a good question. And it got me thinking. And I, I'm struggling to come up with a really great sendoff to a famous NHL building at least. When you look at the great buildings, I'm sure there's some, and this will be one of those things where I think people will probably reach out and say, oh, you know, you miss this one or what about that? But it's, when you look at some of the really great NHL buildings,

and I don't know if the Coliseum is a great building, but it's a, it's a legendary building, let's put it that way. A lot of them didn't really have great send-offs. Both the forum and Maple Leaf Gardens went out with regular season games. I mean, certainly the last game, Maple Leaf Gardens, I remember it well. It was a February game. It wasn't a very, I think the Blackhawks came in and won six to one or something like that. Not much of a send-off. Montreal, I think was pretty similar. I'm thinking of other ones, the Boston Garden, I feel like did get a playoff game, but I don't think it was an especially memorable one. You know what, technically speaking on the Boston Garden? They played a

preseason game, Habs and Bruins, a preseason game to close out the Boston Garden and then they moved to what I think it was called the Fleet Center originally. But they came back to play a preseason game to say goodbye to the building. So that one might move to the bottom of the list. You're doing, you're doing preseason games. That's, that's really something. The other one that I do remember is the Chicago Stadium, that that amazing old building, because that ended, you know, playoff round between the Leafs and the Blackhawks. It was the Leafs who closed that building out. And it was a one-nothing game, too.

That was sort of an anti-climactic ending for a building that when it really got rock and was pretty much the loudest building out there. And the Leafs just went and played a perfect road game and didn't give them any reason to get going. I was going down the list on some other ones. I think the odd in Buffalo, I don't think it was a playoff. game. I don't think they made the playoffs that year. I seem to remember that

the Penguins' last game at the Civic Center was against Montreal. I feel like that was 2010. Yeah, the Halakir. That was one of Yaroslav Halak's reign of terror through that conference. But I'm struggling to come up with like a really great overtime. Because I mean that not only was last night, obviously a huge game, obviously a huge goal, but just

the scene, you know, the crowd going crazy, the big celebration, even tossing the stuff on the ice. You know, it felt like, I mean, it felt like a whole fan base coming together saying, as you said, we don't want this to be the last game. And in fact, the next game could be game one of the Stanley Cup final that they're hosting. But if it is, we're going to go out the right way. And it's hard not to be jealous if you're a fan of one of these other teams where you, you know, you saw your building just kind of ended a whimper. Yeah, and I think too, like regardless either, like this is going to be the greatest send-off in league history.

I think we've just established that as we talked it out because either that was the last game, game six in the conference final, or it's going to be a Stanley Cup final game. Like it's honestly, like you're you're not going to beat that. And so it's funny when you mentioned the igloo in Pittsburgh, I have all of a sudden I remember this. Okay. So 2010, Ottawa's playing Pittsburgh in the first round of the playoffs. Ottawa wins game one. And now I want to stress this as early in Twitter. I was just getting used to the platform.

I think I might have been a little bit more aggressive. I remember tweeting out leading into game two in Pittsburgh. Just an FYI, we might be going in to this arena for the final time ever. Because I was like, hey, if Ottawa wins game two, they could sweep them. The penguins fans were all over me. They're like, you, anyway. So all of a sudden, when you remember the igloo being closed out, I remember poking the bear or poking the penguin. It is tough.

The only good thing about finishing in the regular season is you can do something with the last game. Because if it's in the playoffs, almost by definition, you don't know. It's either a loss and you've ended your season or it's a win and you don't know if it's the last game. So you did get, like, for example, in Montreal at the 4. I don't remember anything about that game, but I do remember the ceremony afterwards with the passing of the torch and all the legends. And I remember the Leafs trying to rip that off a couple years later and it just not being anywhere near as good. So I guess maybe that's the side. But honestly, as far as the Montreal passing the torch around was probably the greatest final image from a building that I can remember.

if this is it in New York, the beer cans all over the ice and the celebration and the place going crazy, maybe tops that as far as great send-offs. And we got to remember, that was Pierre Turjan who took the torch. That's a weird moment. Here's a great trivia question. When the Leafs did their version of that and started bringing out former Maple Leafs, who was the first guy introduced? So is this alphabetical? It wasn't alphabet. It was almost even worse.

I'm feeling Alan Bester. I wish it was Alham Bester. It was Lou Francis Sgetty was the first guy because they started like from most recent and then went back. This was a Ken Dryden thing. Like this is Ken Dryden that seen Montreal and the idea. This is the most Maple Leafs thing ever. The idea had been that the Canadians brought out all their legends, but that the Leafs would bring out everybody. Because everybody plays a role.

It's not just the superstars. It's the grinders. And it's, and it probably. sounded good in a boardroom. But in practice, you had the, you know, the Canadians, it's Rock and Richard and it's John Belvo and then the Leafs are like, and here's Lou Franciscetti. And you're like, yeah, that's, that's right. That's pretty much where this franchise is at.

You know what? I think the Oilers closed out Rexall that way. Didn't they have like, and like here comes Jason Bonsignor? Like, or something like, I mean, it wasn't Jason Bonzenior. But didn't they go with some rando guys in the last game ever? Yeah, they did something similar. And the other thing with the Oilers, because that was 2016, they finished with a win, which is always a great way to send the building home. But in hindsight, that win cost them the spot that the Leafs wound up in that ended up being the Austin Matthews spot.

So, geez, you think the Oilers right now with Draciel and McDavid, imagine they had Austin Matthews, too. If they had lost that game, they would have finished last and won the lottery. So careful what you wish for sometimes. Yeah. And by the way, last game at the Montreal Forum, do you know who scored the final goal in that building? I think this will make you laugh. This will make you laugh. Andre Covalenko.

You think about the greatest players that have gone through that building. And the last guy to score a goal at the forum was Andre Covalenko. That is a – but I mean, the Leafs can top even that because I think some people do know this one. It was against Chicago. I think Bob Probert scored the last goal. at the gardens, which you know what, actually given some of the memories in that building,

that was probably pretty appropriate. Yeah, well, listen, again, we don't know that that's going to be the last game ever in New York, and they're hoping that they get another game on Long Island in the Stanley Cup final. I kind of hope so, too, man. It's fun. I'm with you.

I think unless you're a lightning, and I hope lightning fans can understand, look, you won the cup last year. It's not that we're cheering against you. In fact, I find the lightning somewhat of a likable team. I mean, the cap issue is not with stand. I think they're a fairly likable team. But, I mean, how are you not cheering for the Islanders, right?

Unless you're a diehard Rangers fan or Devils fan, like, I get it. But I'm thinking the Islanders' odds of pulling off Game 7 win will be dramatically improved, Sean, if Nikita Kucharov can't go, right? Like, this is a massive storyline here, is it not? It's huge, and I mean, we don't, as we're recording this, we don't have any information. John Cooper didn't say anything after last night's game. It's possible by the time people are hearing this, we may already know that he's out or we may know that he's going to be okay. We're guessing. But when a star player goes out on the first shift and the game goes to overtime and we never even see the guy again, that's not a good son.

This isn't a little bruise. This wasn't a guy leaving a game and it was 5'1 and you go, yeah, he could have come back, but we just decided to shut him down. There's clearly, at least last night there was clearly something very wrong. I got two days to figure it out and see if they can get him to play. But yeah, that is an absolutely huge moment. This guy has been money during the playoffs. He's clearly one of the very best players in the league. And you're missing him in a game where, I mean,

if you have to go on the road against a stacked team and win a 2-1 game, do you want any other team other than Barry Trots and the New York Islanders to go pull that off? And if you're the lightning, you're sitting there going, we want all hands on deck because it's probably going to come down to one goal. So who's our guy that can score that goal. And Kutrov's one of their guys that can make that goal happen. And my guess is they're not going to have them for game seven, which is a big story and really unfortunate because the way he went down was not a play

that needed to happen. No, and I think a lot of Lightning fans are like how you miss that, right? Like Chris, and it was Chris Lee that was the, I believe the closest official there, Scott Mayfield, he kind of reminds Islanders fans will appreciate this. In fact, Leif's fans, you might appreciate this. Scott Mayfield gave me some Steve Webb vibes. Remember Steve Webb in the O2 playoffs, the building was rocking, and it was like the home games you couldn't stop Steve Webb.

And Mayfield was like that last night. He was a one-man wrecking crew, scores this. tying goal, but how on earth, Sean, do the, and I know the officiating's been under the microscope and I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I think one of the best players in the game, I think Kuchrov is one of the best five or six players in the game. When that guy gets taken out on a super vicious, needless, pointless, dirty hit that really had nothing to do with anything and nothing happens in terms of a penalty on the ice, it's not good. It's not a good look for the game. I just don't know how they miss that. No, and it's not. And the only thing I'll argue

with you is you keep saying they missed it. He didn't miss it. He was looking right at it. Sometimes plays get missed because they have behind the play or you know, you get screened out. There's, there was none of that. He was looking right at the play and he just decided not to call that.

And I, look, I'm a rule books guy. I'm, you know, I'm the guy who half the time when people are mad at the refs or mad at reviews or mad at this, I show up and I go,

well, actually, the rule book says, I got nothing for you on this one. That's a cross-check by every conceivable definition, even if you factor in kind of the unwritten rules that have evolved, where if it's in front of the net, for some reason, the rules seem to be different. If it's a board battle active with the puck right there,

there seems to be a sort of a different standard. This was just a guy laying the lumber into somebody's arm and ribs, hard enough to knock him down. and it's not called and yeah I get the frustration it's not like it's not like a two minute penalty makes you feel much better if you're the lightning and you just lost this guy for any period of time but I I don't understand how stuff like this doesn't get called especially when it's it's it's one of the first shifts of the game if it's if there's a minute left and it's tied if it's in overtime we all understand that right or wrong the rulebook goes out

the window at this point. This is your chance as an official. You know this is going to be a physical nasty game. We're coming off an 8-0 game. There's bad blood. This is your chance to kind of establish that we're not going to get silly here. And he doesn't call it. And, you know, and Scott Mayfield later in the game does, you know, not the same thing, but he takes some liberties with Stephen Stamcoe's and cuts Stephen Stamco's skating off the ice with bloodstream down his face. And I'll tell you, At that point, I almost tweeted, you know, something along the lines of, yeah, no fan wants to see the reps decide the game. I guess instead we want to see Scott Mayfield decide the game with the point being that, you know, here's this low-skilled player running around. He's the guy who's allowed to have an impact.

And then he scores. And he goes and scores. One of the most beautiful goals, I'm so glad I didn't tweet that. I would have had that thrown back at me so badly by Islander fans and rightfully so because that was a beautiful goal that he scored. That was, I literally was watching this, and I know, I'm a Leafs fan, so I bring everything back to the Leafs. I'm going, this defensive defenseman, third pairing guy who had, I think, two goals on the season, just scored a nicer goal than I've seen any Maple Leaf score in the last several playoff runs. It was, it was just such a perfect shot. So, yeah, it was, it's, it was Scott Mayfield's world, and we were all just living in it last night.

And so, you know, Kucherov potentially. being out for a game seven is huge because this is a guy who's leading the playoffs and scoring, right? So, you know, he's out of the, potentially out of the equation, but here comes Braden Point on one of the greatest heaters I think we've ever seen in our lifetime in the Stanley Cup playoffs, nine games in a row. So I'm going to give you a fictitious consmite vote. And I know the series haven't wrapped up right now. If you're giving a consmite vote right now, do you give it to Braden Point?

Do you give it to Nikita Kutrov? Do you give it to Kerry Price or do you give your vote to somebody else? Yeah, if I'm doing it right now, honestly, if I'm the voting pool for the Kahn Smythe, I probably split my Tampa vote between Kutraub and point and that lets Carrie Price slide in and get it. Carry Price is, it's interesting. We got the latest update of Kahn Smyth odds earlier in the week and I'm sure they've changed since then.

But Carrie Price was actually listed. as a bigger favor to win the con smithe than the Canadians were to win the Stanley Cup, which implies not only that obviously if the hats win the Cup, Kerry Price is going to win the cons smite. We all know that, but that they thought, the odds makers thought there was a significant chance that he could even win the cons smite in a losing cause, which is extremely rare, but does happen. Yeah, point Kutrov is, because the thing is, brain points, no one's ever done this. what he's doing right now in the last 40 years.

It's amazing. And yet Nikita Kutrov is still like, I think, six or seven points ahead of him. You know, assuming he can come back and play in the final if they're even there, he's going to finish with a pretty decent lead. That's going to be a tough one. It's going to be a tough call for the voters. And I think those are definitely the big three candidates. And then, of course, you get into, hey, if the Islanders go,

what the heck do you do there? Because that's there's no one player that's sticking out. That feels more like kind of an ultimate team effort sort of thing. And Vegas, I mean, Vegas has got a long way to go to even get back into that conversation. But it's interesting. I like the Consmite. It's a fascinating award to me as I think a lot of fans know

it's not voted on the same way as the other awards. There's not a big pool. There's like a dozen guys. There may be a few more in the media who get to pick it. And it's at the last minute at the end of the Stanley Cup final. So it can go in a lot of different ways that you can get some interesting results. But yeah, if Tampa wins, Point versus Kuturov is going to be a tough one. Assuming Kuturov, hopefully, fingers crossed can at least play in the final if that's even something we got to worry about. Yeah, I think it's really cool that a guy that's on a nine-game goal scoring streak isn't just a slam dunk, lock it in.

He's your cons, my trophy, when I think it just speaks. And it's fun, too. Isn't it nice to finally have a playoff story? When was the last time we were talking about a guy in the playoffs going on a heater, having a great hot streak for his team? And it's not a goaltender, right? Like, it's always a goalie. Every year there's five goalies.

They go, oh, they got the hot goalie. They got the hot goalie. Isn't it nice to have a team where we go? They got the hot number one center. They got the hot goal score. Like, it's a nice change. And yeah, it's been great because it's getting to the point where it's, It's almost laughable.

And yeah, he's trailing only Reggie Leach from the 70s. There's not a lot of goal scoring or offensive records where guys from today are ahead of all the guys from the 80s and the 90s. And it's cool to see. It's been a fun ride. Yeah, if you think about that, Mike Bossy or Yari Curry or Gretzky in their... Gretzky, Lummeu never did it. At the apex of their career that they wouldn't have done nine straight just speaks to that. You know, I don't Habs fans are probably listening to this and paying attention.

and feeling those 93 playoff vibes and, you know, waiting for the New York Islanders to take out the defending Stanley Cup champion in a game seven. Like, it's all lining up, right? But I got to throw this at you here of the importance, Sean, of the HABs wrapping up the series in six games. Okay. So surprise athletic hockey show trivia question for you mid show. Okay. When is the last time a Canadian-based team won a game seven in the season? Stanley Cup playoffs at this stage of the playoffs against an American opponent. So either Stanley Cup final or Final 4, it's a game seven, and it's a Canadian team against an American team.

I want you to try and figure out when the last time a Canadian team beat an American team in a game seven at this stage of the playoffs. Well, I mean, I'm starting with the Leafs and I can go all the way back to the, to the I mean, geez, the Leafs, I think you wouldn't even get until you went back to the 80s, if not the Islanders series. It's not the Leaves. We haven't had a Canadian team in the final since Vancouver. That was Boston. They lost that game seven, of course.

It would have to have been a conference final one, unless we got to go all the way back to the early 90s and the Oilers. and who's even been to the final. Edmonton didn't do, didn't need a game seven. Calgary, I don't think needed a game seven. Ottawa didn't. Vancouver didn't. Are we getting back to like a year that starts with the number one? Like is that how far we're...

So the last time a Canadian team beat an American team in a game seven in the third round of the playoffs or later, The Edmonton Oilers taken out the Philadelphia Flyers in Game 7 in 1987. Wow. Since then, there have been seven instances where a Canadian team, played an American team in a game seven. Canada's 0 for seven. So here's the list, okay? Here's the list. I'll do this chronologically.

Ottawa, Pittsburgh, 2017. That's the double overtime Chris Coonitz game. Boston, Vancouver, 2011. That's the 4-0. Here comes the riot. Carolina, Edmonton, Stanley Cup final, 2006. Carolina wins that. Tampa Bay Calgary, 2004, Game 7.

Ruslan Fedetenko, I think, scored two goals there. Ottawa, New Jersey, 2003, Jeff Friesen. Yes, yes. Vancouver Rangers 1994. Nathan Lafayette hits the crossbar. We all know that. You can stop here. You can stop.

Toronto, Los Angeles, 1993. Gretzky, the hat trick. And the last time a Canadian-based team beat an American team at this stage of the playoffs in the game 7, Glenn Anderson, I think, had the game-winning goal. Ron Hextall won the Khan-Smith. Sorry, Oilers, Flyers, 87. How about that? That is an absolutely crazy stat.

Yeah. That is, wow. Better get it done tonight, I guess, Montreal. Yeah, exactly. All right, Sean, listen, speaking of the Habs in Vegas and games, and Game 6 and possibly a game 7. Let's bring in the guy that covers the Vegas Golden Knights for us with the Athletic. It is a little segment we like to call Granger Things brought to you by our friends at BetMGM,

the exclusive betting partner with us at the Athletic. Here we go. Jesse Granger, everybody wants to know as we move into Game 6 Thursday night. What is your gut telling you on who takes the starters end this evening, the Vegas Golden Knights in Game 6? Yeah, we should know here in about an hour, whoever leaves the ice first. But my gut's telling me Robin Lennar. My gut hasn't been right in terms of the starting goalie because I'm not sure what Pete DeBore is doing.

I thought he probably should have stayed with Flurry after that Gaff in game three. He didn't. He went with Robin Lennar and ended up being the right decision because Robin Lennar was excellent. So then I thought, well, of course, Robin Lennar is going to get another game. And he didn't. He went back to Flurry. And to be honest, I didn't think it mattered.

I thought Flurry was outstanding in game five, and it didn't matter who was in net. The Golden Knights were going to lose that game regardless. So so far, the goalies have both been pretty good. I'll say this. I don't think the goalie will determine who wins the game tonight. I think whoever plays Robin Lennar or Mark Andre Flurier are going to be good enough to win. It's going to be up to the rest of the team, which hasn't been good enough. Has there been any explanation as to the switch?

Like, we saw earlier in the playoffs them go to Robin Lennar in a game one. And that was a fatigue situation. It was a load management on Mark Andre Fleury more than anything. Was this something like that again? Was this case with them saying, we got to get Leonard in at least one game in the series, and this feels like the right time? Was it a performance thing where we all saw the giveaway in game three? Was it in between?

Do they have they given us any indication? Or is this just another one of those things where fans are supposed to guess? We asked Pete DeBoer after game four when he played Robin Lennar, and he said it had a lot to do with Flurie's fatigue. He went with the load management reasoning. He even brought up the stat. You could tell he was prepared for the questions. He goes, Mark Andre Fleury was tied for most starts in the playoffs for any goalie with Andre Vasselowski, and he's 10 years older than Vasselovsky, which is true.

I don't know if I buy the load management quite as much just because I think the load management did play a factor. But at the same time, if Mark Andre Fleury, if that puck doesn't go off his skate in game three and into the front of the net and they win that game to 1, Fulry was really good in that game prior to that play. He probably is one of the three stars of that game. They would have just won that game to go up 2-1 in the series. I highly doubt they're switching to Robin Lennar in that situation. But I think a combination of Flurry might have been looking a little tired. They've got a great backup goalie and Robin Lennar. And I think that mistake, while Pete DeBore said, played no factor in the decision. I think it probably, maybe, if not, maybe that, if not that mistake,

at least losing that game did play a factor, I think. Yeah, but you know what, you kind of touch on this and I think maybe the, the goaltending is a red herring here. Like, we're all focused on, oh, man, is it flurry? Is it letter? And meanwhile, it's like, hey, the big guns for the Vegas golden nights have gone MIA. So, like, is it something specifically like Phil De No and those guys are doing? Is it just something out? Like, like, Like, what is the reason why, Jesse, Mark Stone, I know Patch already scored last game, but like the guys that you would count on to put the puck in the net for Vegas have disappeared here in this series? Yeah, they definitely have.

I was joking the other day. I don't know if Pete DeBore might just be flipping these goalies just to take the pressure off of his top forward. Seems like that's nobody's talking about Mark Stone's disappearance. Everybody's talking about who's in net when both goalies are playing fantastic. So for them, it's like put all the attention on those guys. I'm fine with it. you're right. It's the second year in a row that the Golden Knights have gotten to the third round of the playoffs and Mark Stone and that line has disappeared. It's a little concerning. You mentioned Philip Dono and obviously he plays a huge role. After what he's done in the first two rounds, I think it'd be crazy to not give him credit for being out there most of the time when Mark Stone is struggling. It seems to me like Vegas, it's a combination of Montreal has a really good neutral zone defense. They, pack their five guys in the neutral zone and make it tough to get through. And they deserve

credit for that. But I also think it's a combination of that and Vegas just not executing because you need that one pass in the neutral zone. Right. When a team's playing that, well, you need that one pass in the neutral zone. And if it's accurate and on time, you can tear through that defense. And especially in game five in Vegas, I thought their passing was just so off. And that's Montreal, to Montreal's credit, they're disrupting that timing. They're making them thread that perfect needle pass, but they're just not making it. And when they don't make that pass, they refuse to dump it in. They're trying to make the pass every time. They're trying to make that perfect pass. And when you do that, you turn the puck over. And Montreal, they kind of

just sit back and wait and wait and wait. And they're super patient. And to me, when I watch this series, what's kind of been the storyline in my head is Montreal's star players aren't scoring that much either. De No does not have a goal in the playoffs. He has two assists, but it doesn't frustrate him because he knows I don't need to score. So when Mark Stone and Philip DeNoe are battling each other back and forth, and Mark Stone has shut Philip DeNoe down just as well. But the problem is Philip DeNoe does not care. He's not frustrated at all. The Canadians aren't frustrated as a team. They will sit back and sit back and be conservative and wait for that chance and then they get a breakaway and they score. Whereas the Golden Knights, when they're getting shut down,

it does frustrate them because they feel like they should be producing those players. So I think it's been a game of patience and Montreal has been a lot more patient and I think a lot of that has to do with the expectations on each team. So here's a question for you. And I think Sean has kind of alluded to this in some of his articles in the last couple of weeks. You know, the Vegas Golden Knights have done a pretty good job of going big game hunting in the last few years, right? They get patchy ready. They get stone.

They get Petrangelo. I've got to throw a fictitious scenario at you. you. Vegas loses game six on Thursday night. The offense is rather silent. Does Bill Foley and the ownership group and then the general manager, you know, Kelly McCrimman, George McPhee, the hockey operation staff, do they get aggressive and say, you know what, we need Jack Eichel? Damn it, we need Jack Eichol and that's how we're going to fix this thing. Is there any, is there any way that they just continue this aggressive push of just acquiring star players? Yeah, so the logical side of me says the team with absolutely no cap space that had to play a beer league roster with two lines, half the games this year is not going to add a multi-million dollar Jack Eichl at center.

But everything over the past four years covering this team tells me that there's a chance. I mean, you mentioned the same thing about Alex Petrangelo, wouldn't we? Right. Exactly. And you guys mentioned Patch Ready and Stone and Petrangelo, but it's also like they went after Eric Carlson. They tried to get him from Ottawa before he ended up in San Diego. They were in on John Tavares. They didn't end up getting him.

He was destined for Toronto. He didn't really even give Vegas a thought, but they wanted him. I mean, they've been on literally every big fish in the NHL, whether it's free agency or trade, basically since they've been in the league. And you add in the fact that you look at the Golden Knights roster and as his talent says it is, the biggest weakness, the biggest glaring, missing piece on this team is a number one center. And obviously, Jack Hickle would fill that. Now, you'd have to dismantle what they're.

have right now in order to make Jack Eichael fit. The team is going to look drastically different. That's probably two or three players being moved out. And I think for a team that they already don't have enough cap space to fill out the roster the way they'd like, like, not just in numbers, in terms of talent. They have to play a lot of minimum salary guys because of how top heavy the salary cap structure is on their lineup. And I think adding a guy like Jack Eichol makes it even worse. So I don't see a way that they make it work with still being able to put together a legit NHL, like bottom six roster.

I'll just say it only because I know people are thinking it as they listen. Vegas goes out. They trade for Jack Eichol. We know he's got the problem with his neck. They say to him, you know what, Jack, take your time. Have the surgery. Do lots of rehab. And you know what?

We'll see you in April when the first. regular season's over. And as we all know, there's no more salary cap. Then you and your 10.5 million cap hit come on back and be ready for game one. I'm just going to put it out there. Just to fuel that storyline a little more. The other day, I was looking at what's going to happen to this division. And if there were a division, a team and a division where adding a player and not needing him for the regular season were a scenario, I mean, this division wasn't great this year in the West, right? Like, it was Colorado, Minnesota, and Vegas, and St. Louis struggled, and then the rest of the vision was really, really bad. And next year, Colorado, Minnesota, and St. Louis are all out.

The only other three good teams other than Vegas, they're all out. They're replaced by Edmonton, Calgary, and Vancouver, all who struggled. And then Arizona's out, and they're replaced by Seattle. So it's going to be Vegas with- And that's the only other good team. I've been assured that when you're an expansion team, it's all rigged so that you're going to be a contender, right? So Seattle is going to be amazing. Superstars, right. But it's literally Seattle, Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver, Anaheim, L.A., San Jose.

Like, there's not a lot in that division. If you could make it without Jack Eichol, like you're in good shape. Just putting it out in the world. Oh, boy. Hey, listen, Jesse, as we wrap up our segment with you, we always have you like we say for a bad MGM, and we pick a line or two earlier in the podcast. Sean and I were talking about consmite trophy candidates. And the obvious ones are Kerry Price, Braden, Poein.

Nikita Kutrov, but maybe you can walk us through, maybe you can put some smart money down on a dark horse candidate outside of those top three guys. Right. I think right now is a good time that if you're wanting to bet on Kahn Smyth, because once in two days, the finals could be set. And once that's set, the odds decrease drastically, right? Because now it's two teams. You're getting one of them. Whereas right now, if you can pick a team, if you can pick a guy on New York, you're getting way better odds than if they win in game seven. So speaking of it, the Islanders. I looked at theirs and it shocked me that Semyon Verlamov is their favorite to win it right now. The guy is 7 and 6. He's been good, but he's 7 and 6. He's Ilyosurokens 4 and 1 and has better

stats in basically every category possible. I would shy away from him and I'd look at other guys and that's where you can find some value. I think so Barzal obviously leads the team in points, but a guy like Anthony Bavillier is one point behind Barzal. He has the same amount of assists and one fewer goal and his analytics are very good. And he's 50 to 1 right now. I think a guy like that, especially on a team like the Islanders where the scoring is so spread out, you get into it, you got, you get a guy like that at 50 to 1. He's one goal behind Barzal. He has three goals in the final.

Suddenly you've got the leading score on the team at 50 to 1 to win the cons to might. I think that'd be phenomenal value. Another team, you guys mentioned Montreal. Kerry Price is the overwhelming favorite at play. plus 275 and no one else is even close. The next closest is Tyler Tofoli at 30 to 1 plus 3,000. I think if I was betting, I mean, you got a team that has two chances to get a win to go to the cup final. You can get Tyler Toffoli at 30 to 1.

If you want to get crazy, Philip DeNoe has two points. I think he might be the best, have the best chance of winning a cons of my faith, a guy with two points in the history of hockey. He is not on the board at some places, but if you can convince him to get him on the board, I have seen him at 100 to 1. So, I mean, yes, it's kind of crazy. He's got two assists and two points in the playoffs. But at the same time, the storyline around this team has 100% been Philip Dono's ability

to shut opposing lines down. And you tell me that the Montreal Canadiens play Tampa in the final and he shuts down to Kutja Kutrov and scores one goal. All he needs is one. You've got a guy at 100 to 1 to win a consmite. I think there are. And like I mentioned Tyler Tofoli at 30 to 1. he leads the team in points. I think that's another good one.

Kerry Price is obviously the favorite, but there are scenarios where Montreal plays Tampa and Tampa scores some goals and the Canadians need offense and they end up, you end up getting a goal score to win that award. So I think that those are some guys that at this stage with four teams still available, you can find some value. And not just those guys. I advise anyone who's going to bet Konsmite, now is the time. If you're, if pick your, pick your person and I think it's worth it to take the risk while they're still four teams. The odds right now are better than if you wait two days until you have your cup final matchup set. And worth pointing out that the Kahn Smyth is technically an award for the entire playoffs, but realistically, the recency bias kicks

in big time in the final. So if you're looking at somebody and you're going, you know, their numbers so far, especially the skaters, the goalies, it's maybe a little more the full body of work, but especially the skaters if you're going, numbers aren't that great. Couple of big goals in the final moves you right up the list real quick. All right. Well, listen, Jesse, we look forward to your coverage of game six, potentially a game seven in that conference final between Montreal and Vegas. We'll get you again next week to set up the Stanley Cup final,

and we'll see if it's a Vegas or Montreal that's in there. But we appreciate the time. Have a great week, and we'll get you again next Thursday. Awesome. Thanks for having me, guys. All right, always fun to get to Jesse Granger in with the Granger things, especially when the team he covers, is front and center as they will be. on Thursday, Sean. Vegas and Montreal,

they don't have a lot of history there. There's not a lot of rivalry. But I thought it was really interesting. And it was Chris Cuthbert, who tweeted out a photo before the game, Vegas and Montreal in game five, of the scoreboard at the T-Mobile Arena in Vegas, of Celendion,

who is one of the most iconic figures in Canada and certainly one of the most iconic figures in Quebec. she has been known to cheer for the Montreal Canadians in the past, and yet here the Vegas Golden Knights pushing Celendion, who is, we should point out, right? She lives in Vegas. Like, that's kind of her home now. Like, I'm going to use pun intended here,

jumping ship with her Titanic reference, but like, do, like, is there something here? Like, is this a controversy? Like, should we be worried that or bothered by Celendian, like cheering for the Vegas Golden Knights? over the Montreal Canadiates? I hate to break this to everybody, but it's better that you hear it from a friend.

That celebrity that you think cheers for your favorite sports team doesn't really care about your favorite sports. There are like five celebrities that are real honest to God fans, and everybody else is just, they put on a cap or a shirt, you know, when the singer comes to town and they come out, your favorite team's jersey. Like that's not, I promise you,

Rihanna isn't really a diehard senator's fan as much as the Ottawa fan base loves that. You know, you go on down the list, just because you can find a photo of somebody now. You know, Celine Dion, obviously that's maybe a little bit different. But typically speaking,

big-time celebrities are busy with big-time celebrity stuff and they're not real die-hard fans. If I saw Bill Murray walking around in a Yankees cap, I'd be upset. That would bother me. But beyond that, I mean, there's, there's, it happens, it happens all the time. I'm trying to think of other examples. Like, do you remember LeBron?

Oh, the whole thing with the Yankees? Wasn't that a thing? He had the Yankees cap and then they were playing the Cleveland, yeah. Right? That was when he was still. And that was a whole thing. And there's a handful of others. But I promise you, man, your, your favorite celebrity that you think is, is a real diehard

for your team. they probably don't care. Every celebrity should just do the Roblo thing with them. Remember he had the half of the NFL logo and people were making fun of that? Like who has an NFL hat? Celebrities do. That's what they should all be. That was the only honest celebrity in the stands moment that.

Oh, yeah. Like even Matthew Perry of Friends fame used to be an Ottawa Senators fan, at least publicly kind of grew up in Ottawa. I haven't seen that guy tweet or say anything about the Ottawa senators. in years. No. And it's, you know what?

It's, it's fun too, because there's some celebrities who've been able to pull it off where there's multiple fan bases that just think that they're like, Michael J. Fox,

there's Canucks fans who are convinced that he's like a diehard Canucks fan. LA Kings? Oh, no, Bruins. Yeah, yeah. Sorry, you're right. L.A., I mean, everybody in L.A.

is all the celebrities, but I think he was a Bruins guy. So he went awfully quiet in 2011, I think. He knew what the, he at least give him credit. He was smart enough not to let the Bruins put him up on the scoreboard

and suddenly turn that thing around. But yeah, I feel like probably whoever wins, I don't feel like Celine Dion sitting in her den, like kicking over the coffee table because her favorite team didn't win. All right, as we always do, let's wrap up with a little, this week in hockey history. We've got a couple of things to hit on. Let's go back to June of 1998.

Okay, so we go back to June 20, 22nd, 1999, Sean. And this one to me is really interesting because the NHL decides that they're going to adopt the three-point formula, meaning if the game is tied after 60 minutes, it will be one point for each team with a bonus point handed out, a bonus point handed out for the overtime winner. and then they also announced at this time that the overtime format would go to four on four, which I know sounds really silly because now we've got three on three. But I mean, how are we feeling about this again? We go back. The date that probably a lot of fans should have circled

because this to me really changed a lot of the way the game was made. And I apologize, it's June 21st, 1999. Three-point system gets a doctor. You know, you're saying three-point system bonus point. It's the loser point. That's what we're talking about here. It's the loser point. So I'm going to shock you right now.

What? Because I have, I know a lot of fans don't like the loser point. I'm right there with you. I, I, if there are, if there's anyone in the media who has written and talked more about how much they hate the loser point than me, I'd like to see it. Because I've beaten this into the ground for years and years and years. Ah, but I said some, a butt is coming here. There is a butt coming. Here's the butt.

when it was brought in in 99, it wasn't awful. And I'll tell you why. There was a reason that they brought it in. A lot of people maybe weren't around back then, weren't fans. So let's talk about the history here. This was actually a case of the NHL, I guess to their credit, doing something they almost never do, which is recognize a problem and get creative on a solution. The problem was back then, late 90s, the dead puck era has now set in.

We're into the scoring rates have plummeted. It's become a clutch and grab league. It's everyone's doing the trap. Games are all three to two, if you're lucky. Defensive mindset has locked in. And what ended up happening was overtime became a very boring part of the game. It was first of all, it was five on five. So there wasn't a lot of room on the ice.

But just the philosophy, overtime used to be fun. It used to be your last chance to go out and get a win. You'd send your best guys out there and try to score. but the mindset in the NHL had become, hey man, we've just grinded our way through 60 minutes. We're tied one to one. Let's not go out there and blow it and give up a goal. And then we walk out of here with a loss and no points.

And so overtime, the rates of games that were decided in overtime, the ones that went to overtime, had plunged. I think it was at some point it was like 20%. So there was an 80% chance that you sat down for overtime. You weren't going to see anything. And it wasn't just that there were too many ties, although that was part of it. It was overtime itself was just super dull.

I mean, you flipped on a game and you saw him as overtime. You were like, oh, man, I already missed all the good stuff because this is just going to be two teams sending the puck in deep and killing time. So the NHL said, you know what? We're going to completely change the incentives. We're going to say, you get a point. You lose an overtime. You still get a point. Now, go play for the win.

And there were still ties back then. So if you wanted to sit back and play for the tie, you could, but you didn't gain anything at this point. You already had the point. You were going to get a point for a tie. Might as well go for it. Might as well open it up. And that combined with four on four suddenly turned overtime into this pretty exciting thing. Now, the obvious side effect of that was immediately more games started going to overtime because coaches aren't dumb.

They go, well, you're going to give me a point. If I get to overtime, we're going to play for overtime. But as a way to discourage teams from playing for the tie, it was actually pretty smart thing to do. Now, fast forward five years after that, and we come out of the lockout, and now we have the shootout. There's no more ties. The reason for having this stupid thing in the first place is now gone. We don't need it anymore. But by that point, all the GMs in the league are so used to having these inflated records.

They're going, whoa, you're not taking our points away now. And we're still stuck with the thing. So the loser point is terrible and stupid and awful, and it should be gone. And it should have never been in the league once we brought shootouts in. But during that five-year window, before we had shootouts and we were just trying to get overtime to be exciting, get teams to stop playing for ties, it actually wasn't terrible. So the other one I want to bring up here this week in hockey history, June 22nd, 1977. And that is the NFL names John Ziegler as their president. And really, he was the last president before they kind of made this into a commissioner's position.

I know there was like Gil Stein and stuff. But, you know, John Ziegler was on the job for quite a while. And I want to know, if you look back and say, okay, John Ziegler, what's his legacy? Like, for me, this is just my thought on John Ziegler. I think it's merging with the WHA, right? Like he brings the WHA into the fold, brings the four teams over, you know, Hartford, Quebec, Winnipeg and Edmonton and kind of brings, or ends the threat of the WHA. That's what I think it is with John Ziegler, but maybe, you know what?

When I ask you, what do you think John Ziegler's biggest legacy is? What's your answer? There's sort of two versions of this, right? There's what's his biggest legacy as far as the impact that still felt today? And then there's what do you remember most about John Ziegler? Yeah, his biggest legacy, I would agree with you, is the WHA merger. He takes the job in 1977. It's controversial at the time.

He's American. He's a lawyer. He's a guy without a lifetime of hockey background. He had worked in hockey and worked with the league quite a bit. He wasn't some outsider. But this wasn't, you know, Frank Calder or Clarence Campbell or somebody like that, which is what the league was used to having these hockey lifers. John Siegler comes in and a big part of the reason why he was given the job is even at that point in 77, it was knowing that the WHA wasn't long for the world. Something was going to happen.

Was it going to be a merger? Was it going to be a takeover? How was this going to shake out? And it was a very complicated situation. And he did manage to stick handle the league through that reasonably. successfully. I mean, the four teams he brought in are all still in the league to this day, not in their original locations in all cases, but he actually did that reasonably successfully. He was also the guy responsible from a leadership perspective for the early 90s expansion.

So Tampa, Ottawa, Florida, Anaheim, San Jose coming in in that kind of weird merger with the North Stars. He had that as well. We had a decade with pretty much a decade almost with no franchise moves or financial problems. That was big. He also, this is kind of forgotten now, but in the 1980s, the NHL, like all the sports leagues, had a issue with the player drug use where this was a new situation. We'd never cared what players did on their own time before, but now you had this situation breaking out. He had to sort of guide the league through that. So he had a lot of things on his plate, and I think you could make an argument that he was reasonably successful at most of them.

So that is probably what his legacy should be. What do people remember? We all remember 1988. The Devils and Bruins have another donut, yellow Sunday with the referees coming out in their raincoats. And this whole time, John Ziegler is MIA. Nobody knows where the president of the NHL is. I mean, imagine something crazy happening tonight with Montreal and Vegas.

And there's, you know, officials are walking off. the job, games are being delayed. It's just absolute madness and nobody knows where Gary Bettman is and nobody can reach Gary Betman. That was the whole thing. Why we ended up with the officials in raincoats was because they, the devils wanted to appeal the suspension and they had to appeal it to John Ziegler and John Ziegler wasn't around. Nobody knew where he was. And so they ended up going to court and it was this whole mess. And I believe to this day, we've never known officially what it actually where John Ziegler was and what he was doing during that time. It seems incomprehensible. I mean, imagine today Gary Bettman went missing. Somebody

would be tweeting out a photo of them within 24 hours and we'd have our leads. Back then, it was just kind of like, well, the president of the league isn't around. And I guess we'll just have to muddle through and figure it out with whoever's left. one of the very strangest stories in the history of the NHL. And to this day, the first thing that pops into my mind whenever I hear John's English name. All right. One other one here, real quick. June 24th, 1980, this week in hockey history, the NHL announces, Sean,

the flames are relocating. They're moving from Atlanta to Calgary. And I'm always fascinated by this in sports history when a franchise relocates, but they hang on to the same name. The one that everyone thinks about is the Utah Jazz, right? Like, they come from New Orleans, they moved to Salt Lake City where there's really no connection to jazz and that type of vibe. And yet, they're the Utah Jazz. It makes no sense.

Like, why did the flames hang on to the moniker flames when they moved? And how often does this happen in NHL relocation where a team moves but keeps the name? Yeah. Well, I'll answer that question first. never other than this time. This is the only time in NHL history that a team has moved and there been a fair number of franchise moves in NHL history and kept the name. Even if you go back to the pre-original six days when there were teams kind of moving all around, they would change names whenever they moved. This is the only time. And the answer, I had to look it up,

is that the flames owner just liked the name. That was it. He figured it was, you know, Calgary was an oil town and he figured that the flame kind of kind of fit with that. Obviously, you couldn't directly reference oil because you had the oilers already established. So that's the answer is, you know, back then teams didn't, you know, there weren't these big consulting teams coming in and, you know, spending millions of dollars and pitching and making slide decks and all this stuff. Back then, a lot of times the name just came down to what the owner liked. The owner of the flames liked that name and decided to keep it. And that history was made because it's the only time and probably the only time

whatever will be that an NHL team keeps its name. So, yeah, we don't have our version of the Utah Jazz. We don't have our version of the Lakers moving to Los Angeles. You're looking around going to go, where's the lake? Other sports have had that, but not the NHL with this one exception. Yeah, the Dodgers moving from Brooklyn to Los Angeles. but do the stars get a half mark moving from Minnesota to Dallas? They dropped the north, but they keep the stars.

They dropped the north, and that one probably is a half mark because the Minnesota North Stars had not officially, but kind of unofficially even dropped the North in their last season. They had started referring to themselves as the stars. And so maybe that is almost an equivalent. But yeah, Dallas, which in a way was maybe even. Maybe even worse to just drop the description, but keep half the name in there. That was a little tough for those Minnesota fans. All right.

We'll leave it there. Sean, listen, as always, this was a ton of fun. The hour just flew by. Have a great week. And I guess when we reconnect for next week's show, we'll be setting up the Stanley Cup final. Sounds good. All right. And a reminder, everybody, that we're five days a week now with the athletic hockey show.

We got that prospect series with Max Boltman, Corey Bromman coming your way on Friday. If you didn't hear the Wednesday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show, that's the two-man advantage version with Burnside and LeBron. They have the current Jack Adams Award winner, Rod Brindamore, on the show. So make sure you get a chance to listen to that. And a big thanks again for joining us. If you got any questions or comments, drop us an email, the athletic hockey show at gmail.com. And if you're not a subscriber with The Athletic, you can join us at Theathletic.com.

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