The Athletic Hockey Show - On Ovechkin, the beloved, complicated, greatest goal-scorer in NHL history

Episode Date: April 7, 2025

Alexander Ovechkin made history Sunday afternoon on Long Island, passing Wayne Gretzky as the NHL’s all-time goals leader. Today, Max, Laz, and The Athletic’s Dan Robson discuss Ovi’s on-ice greatness, his off-ice support of Vladimir Putin, and the realities that will shape his legacy. Plus, The Athletic’s Jesse Granger joins the show to talk about the sweet spot of good goaltending and great goal-scoring the league is currently in, the real key to beating a goalie nowadays, and an Eastern Conference wild card check-in to close things out.Hosts: Max Bultman and Mark LazerusWith: Dan Robson and Jesse GrangerExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Chris Flannery Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic hockey show. Hey, everybody, Max Boltman here alongside Mark Lazarus for another episode of the athletic hockey show. We are going to be talking about Alex Ovechkin today. He finally sets the NHL all-time goals mark on Sunday with goal number 895 against the New York Islanders. To start that conversation, I want to bring in the great Dan Robson. Dan had an awesome piece on Ovechkin last week. And let's just start here, Dan. What did you think watching the moment play out yesterday?

I mean, it would be, it was very exciting. Like the energy of, I mean, I've been thinking about it for some time, but just the way that the goal came about, the celebration, the moment. I mean, it felt, I mean, it felt enormous. It was really interesting just to see, I mean, last game when he tied it, we saw the game stop and everything happened to see that sort of outpouring, the shots of his family, his mom. You know, I just, I think it rose to that sort of hype that's been building for some time.

And I think they certainly played into that as much as possible. Yeah, you know, Max, you mentioned he finally did it. It's like, he did it so fast. It was like, you know, two weeks ago, we're like, is he going to be able to do it? The ticking clock. And then all of a sudden he decides to score and he gets six goals in five games. And, you know, I was there on Friday in D.C.

Because they were playing the Blackhawks. And like the vibe there was, it was just surreal how confident everybody was that he was going to score three goals that day. It is really hard to score three goals in the NHL. And people were almost surprised that he didn't. You know, he had four scoring chances in the last like 90 seconds. after the empty netter by Ryan Leonard to get it. And we all just assumed it was going in.

Like, there's this inevitability factor. And the way it went down where it was a big shot, it wasn't like some deflection, there wasn't an offside review, there wasn't a goalie interference. It was just a clean John Carlson feed, or Tom Wilson feed, and a shot from his office.

It wasn't quite the big one-timer. But everything played out beautifully, the way that everyone in D.C. got their big night where he tied it and it was so much fun. And then he gets to do it on the Sunday matinee. on national TV. Islanders fans handled it great. The ceremony was great.

The way the Islanders came and shook his hand. It was just an unusual event. Like, it really felt momentous. And we don't always get that on these record moments. We're just kind of everything just went the way it should have went. Well, I say finally, because you know, you talk about inevitability. And that's how it's felt for me for basically the whole season. You're certainly right that when he breaks his leg, it comes into doubt is it going to happen this season, right?

But for all year, it's been building toward this. I think that showed with the production, the celebration that they were able to put on right afterward. Yeah, I mean, it was interesting. I was to that point, I was glad they didn't, he didn't score the empty net goal to win. I know he didn't want to show the empty netter. It would have been, you know, obviously great. I like like now he's like, oh, I don't think empty netters are cool.

I just happen to be the all-time leader in empty net goals. Leading up to it, he'll get to that point. But for the final, it wasn't drama. He's a showman. He doesn't want it sort of have that sort of final. But I mean, yeah, like they moved to New York. And, you know, I was kind of, I was kind of thinking, honestly, it would be kind of neat if he didn't score there and then scored back in Washington in the next game. But, you know, because there was that point, a sense of inevitability.

Like, there was this feeling like we've been following it for so long, but to Mark's point, like the pace in which he's been scoring. I was in Washington a couple weeks before working on my piece. And like it was the same feeling. Every time he touched the pot, it felt like it was an overtime moment where it was like this could be a goal. It's going to be incredible. It was exciting to be in the building. I imagine that's how you felt, Mark. Like it felt like...

Oh, for sure. You know, it just... I hadn't felt something like that in some time watching a game as being there sort of feeling the energy of the crowd. And so, yeah, it was pretty remarkable to get to experience it even earlier. I was 888. So, I mean, that was several goals ago. It's so cliche to say it was a playoff-like environment, but it really was.

And it's funny because, you know, talking to the players before-end, Dylan Strome basically told me, he's like, look, we don't care about anything other than the record right now. Like, they were locked into first place. They had no other... Like, it was just purely we care about getting the puck to Alex Ovechkin and seeing him scores. Their only priority, which is so rare in the NHL to be able to say that. Well, Obechkin probably shouldn't be playing right now. I mean, they've locked into their spot in the playoffs.

They're, you know, they're an incredible team. They're doing very well. And it's sort of this, it's, there's no, there was no illusion that the whole show here was Ovi. And I'm sure they're probably, I mean, they're excited, but they're all probably glad to be able to focus on the playoffs too. One of the stars of kind of the pageantry of it all was Wayne Gretzky. who I thought was a really good ambassador for the league and all this. And, you know, he had some really good lines about, you know, his father telling him, hey, you know, you need to be as supportive of whoever breaks your record as Gordy Howe was of yours.

Danny, in reporting the story you did, which I would really encourage everybody to go read on the athletic. What did you learn about the relationship and kind of the dynamic between Wayne Gretzky and Alex Ovechkin? Yeah, it goes back a long way. I mean, I was actually a little surprised about that when I was doing some reporting. It wasn't sort of just sort of the last couple years or last year when they got closer. They, several years ago, I believe it was 2016. I have to go back and look exactly, but it was quite a while ago that Ovechkin went for dinner with Wayne in L.A. And sort of just peppered him with questions the whole time.

You always hear that about players always asking questions. But, you know, Ovi really was intrigued by how Wayne saw the game. And then after that connection, that was sort of their first moment of really getting to know each other. They started texting frequently. And Wayne actually sent him an assigned goal a stick that he had scored a goal. with and OV has a massive collection of paraphernalia and memorabilia that he's he's kept over the year. So he keeps that alongside his Crosby stick and his Lima Messi signed gear as well. So it's sort of, and Kobe Bryant as well. So he's been, it's this thing of like,

I think there was a mutual respect. And I think because this chase obviously is sort of heightened that, but it was, it was a unique to find that this was something that, you know, for, it wasn't just sort of like, oh, I really respect them. Like there is an actual friend. there. We're going to get into the Alex Ovechkin and Vladimir Putin in some of the controversy, but let's start with Wayne Gretzky, because Dan, you had an essay a couple weeks ago about how, you know, Wayne Gretzky has been, has fallen out of favor in his native Canada because of his ties to the Trump administration, his silence in light of Donald Trump's, you know, rhetoric towards Canada, and not just rhetoric now. Would this have been

different had the Capitals had a game in Canada? Because Gretzky, he got a big ovation in D.C. He was in his suite with Cash Patel, Trump's FBI director, which was, I thought, a staggering, just a bit of tone deafness that the NHL didn't think that was a bad idea, given everything that's been surrounding Gretzky. But huge ovation in D.C., huge ovation on Long Island. Like you said, said all the right things,

was very gracious. You know, it was a good week for Wayne Graskey, a really good week for Wayne Gretzky. What if this had been in Montreal, Vancouver, Toronto, somewhere else? How different would this have been? That's such an interesting. interesting question because, you know, I can't, Gretzky has been so revered in Canada for so long.

And I think, you know, as I talked about in that, I say there is this sort of sense of what he represents for this nation. And, and obviously this is a moment that, um, with this conversation transcends sport and just his sort of greatness on the ice, which is, you know, like insurmountable aside from Oveciching breaking his record right now. And the idea of him being an icon seemed, you know, unbreakable as well. But, you know, over the past couple months, we've seen that sort of, idea of the myth of what Wayne Greske was sort of fade away and sort of be questioned. So I don't know if you would have seen sort of like a booing the way that there was the booing of the American National Anthem of Montreal.

There likely might have been some booze, a smattering of booze, maybe some silence. There's sort of a mix sort of like, is this guy on our side or is this guy on the other side right now, you know, which is a weird thing to even be thinking about. So in other words, I remember there was some conversation about whether or not, I would break the record when he was in Winnipeg a while ago, like Eddie kept scoring and sort of what that might have looked like. I'm sure the NHL and Wayne Gretzky and everyone involved are grateful that it was on American soil and that that conversation didn't arise because it would have been a really, I don't know the moment. I mean, it would have been so hard to sort of see what Canadian fans were grappling with as they did.

For sure, there would have been loud cheers for Gretzky, but I'm sure there also would have been some booze rising to. What I've wondered is, you know, there's kind of been this looming, in the same way that the goals record has felt inevitable. We've talked about kind of in the prep for the show for months now, like, okay, when are we going to kind of have the more complicated conversation about Ovechkin? And there is this, I think, hesitance by some to kind of celebrate him. Certainly, you know, you point out in the story, Dominikashek has been one of the loudest proponents that, like, hey, there's more to this than just the goals record. There's political layers to this. Certainly, Ovechkans kind of support an embrace of Vladimir Putin. And I thought you did a really good job tackling that in the story.

We will get to that. But I've wondered if Gretzky's kind of fall from belovedness, I guess, for lack of a better word, in Canada, would blunt that a little bit because now, you know, the guy whose record he's chasing also kind of has these complicated political narratives around him. Yeah, it was, I mean, is it a fascinating sort of collision of these things, right? I mean, there's this question of Obetchkin and his support of Putin, which has been very public about and Gretzky and his support of Trump. And I think that they're, you know, they're different things.

I mean, in Canada right now, the issue is not sort of the sort of support of Trump or, you know, being, you know, conservative, et cetera. I mean, that's we have some assumption that most occupiers are conservative and that's just sort of, we don't really get into the politics of it all. It's really the attack on Canada verbally and through sort of trade war, et cetera, that, you know, when you don't step up and defend Canada, that Katie starts to get their backup. But for the most part, I think we would be pretty quiet about this situation. And then when you look at the Ovechkin reality coming into play, I mean, it's just, like, to see the two of them on the ice sort of in the middle of this, it was wonderful moment for the game and this, you know, sincere embrace of this breaking this record and genuine respect for each other, to have that sort of undercurrent of what's going on in the world at the same time was, I think it's an uncomfortable moment for hockey, but it's, you know, as someone watching it and writing about it, I think it was, you know, very interesting in sort of the confluence of like these things, coming together at once because, I mean, a lot of it, you know, there's a lot of this talking about, you know, we don't want to talk about the mixing of politics of sport and want to leave it alone. And for the most part, I mean, over the weekend, that's what happened. That's exactly

what happened. But as we step back, you know, we have to recognize that, like, legacies are complicated and, and they come with, you know, expectations and responsibilities and and how people are viewed down the road. The game isn't just sort of ending when, you know, when, like, the legacy's not tied up when your career's done and when you break the record. It's sort of what falls after. And we've seen that certainly with Gretzky right now, and it'll be interesting to see how that plays out. It is interesting. Max said, like we have literally been talking behind the scenes on the show,

when do we get into this, when do we get into this for so long? And here we are in the weekend happens. And nobody really, there was a very small undercurrent. There always is. But it was pretty much universal. I mean, Ovechkin, in so many ways, is so beloved. The way he plays the game, the exuberance with which he plays the game, the way he celebrates every goal like it's his first.

Everybody wants to love Alex Ovechkin. He's a really kind of likable guy in a lot of ways. He's the kind of athlete that we admire. He's drinking Coke on the bench. He's got a dad bod. He's fried chicken and chicken parm and stuff. Like, this is what we want from our heroes. He's not these untouchables.

But there's always been this undercurrent. I mean, I think the thing that I was thinking about this week was that two things can be true. And I don't think that we, like, I don't think we can take away from what we certainly can't take away from what Alex is done as a player. And also his likability and the respect he has around the league. Like he, you know, when I was writing that story. I mean, a lot of it is about that sort of the contradictions of like this pro athlete who's the best player of all time, goal square of all time, and also living a very ordinary 39-year-old dad life. Like, there is something very admirable about that. And the way that he plays that off, I think, is very genuine.

And I, you don't, you're not going to find many players in the league who dislike Alex Ovechkin as a, as a character, as a personality. Someone even reaches out to them and is kind to them. And, you know, I think really values his place in the game and genuinely loves the game. Like, I think we have to acknowledge all of that. And at the same time, we can acknowledge that there is a reality for a Russian player, and particularly a player who is by far the most famous athlete in Russia. You know, whether we want to say that that excuses or not, we have to recognize that there's sort of a situation that is difficult for us to grapple

with sort of as North American observers is given the context of the country. But also recognize that, you know, for a lot of people, that the way that he goes about supporting Vladimir Putin is incredibly hurtful and damaging and represents a darker side of the story. Well, let's get into the meat of that. Like people always want to say stick to hockey. Well, Alex Ovechkin is the one whose Instagram photo is of him and Vladimir Putin. And Wayne Gretzky is the one who had cash patel in his box. Like, there is no separation of sports and politics. Never has been.

So let's get in the media. When you were reporting the story, you know, there's a segment of the hockey world that wants to dismiss all the Putin stuff as, what do you want him to do? His family's in Russia. He needs him to be safe. How much do you buy that? And how much do you think this is genuine that he genuinely likes and supports Putin? Like, what were you able to kind of figure out? Because it's not something Ovechkin talks a lot about.

When he has talked about it, he has never denied his, you know, his inspection for Vladimir Putin. I mean, that is, it's just a fact. I mean, like, as you said, his Instagram profile pictures, him and Vladimir Putin. He put that up, you know, a long time ago. So there is no evidence to suggest that he doesn't support Vladimir Putin. And when discussed about, when asked about the complicated, the very, you know, the realities of what's happening with Ukraine in the past, Oveshkin has said, you know, I, you know, I'm against war. Sort of that sort of like, like, like, you know, I, and then this says, you might, I'm a play, a hockey player. I don't, I don't worry about politics, except when he clearly discusses politics.

or presents a support. Now, the one thing that I think that is complicated here that I sort of grapple with us when I write that story is that I don't know that I'm in a position to completely condemn a perspective of somebody who comes from a place that I think is a very complicated to understand. And I'm not sort of just sort of saying like, you know, let's dismiss it. It's all complicated. But there are enormous nationalism pressures on Russian players. And most of them stay completely silent about this topic.

entirely. They don't talk about it at all. It's not the same as a North American athlete being able to, you know, be anti-Trump or to support Trump and have these sort of complications or these sort of nuanced conversations about my political beliefs and what I think. It's naturally, as I was speaking to, or as Rod Rossi helped us with the story, was a co-author of the story, did, you know, chatted with one of our, these academics on Russian, you know, politics, you know, had a just some insight into the fact that, you know, the way that we think of, of that sort of idea of nationalism is completely different in North America than it is in Russia. And there's sort of an ethnic tie to it.

There's a sense of like, if you are Russian, you support the Russian government. And so Ovechkin being incredibly passionate about his country, loving to wear, you know, the Russian jersey and all those things, which I think is understandable as a player, that I think for him is tied into a sense of like, well, I'm a Russian. I support my president. As he said, I support my president. I think that he wants to avoid the conversation about those realities and what that means and wants sort of live in a space where he can just be professional athlete and in Russia that, you know, he can do that. And at the same time, at this moment, taking, you know, Putin's picture down, for example, or going to a point where I'm not saying anything at all is an act of

dissension in a way, right? It's not viewed sort of simply as sort of being neutral and all of a sudden all of a sudden being neutral. It's just now he's made a choice to be something else. And so I do get a sense that there is a bit of a, you know, you're in a position with that prominence to not really be able to say anything beyond what you've already said and to keep saying what you've already said. Yeah, and that professor was Jonathan Harris from the University of Pittsburgh. I did agree, really good perspective in that story. And I thought that line that you just mentioned about, you know, the ethnicity and, you know, the nation are kind of the same thing. In America, I don't know how much everyone feels this way, but there is, I think there's

a sense people see themselves as more like, hey, I'm a Republican American. I'm a Democrat American, whatever. I'm sure there's similar ties in Canada, Dan. In Russia, that does not seem to be the case. Well, and it's not to say there's not dissension in Russia. I mean, again, I'm not, you know, we're not. We should point out, Artemi Panarin, Nikita Zadorov, there have been Russian NHL players who have spoken out

against Vladimir Putin. For sure, but what I'm saying is it's not viewed the same way. It's not viewed as it's like the, hey, there's two sides and they debate constantly and whatever. I think it's a little different to have opposition to the president there than here. And I think at both cases, too, they've spoken out, but they're not continuing to

speak out very loudly. It's sort of I made my piece and then a lot at the time, there's a lot of conversation about what that means for that. You mentioned earlier the threat of what happens to families. I mean, it's sort of that unknown, but that underlying reality of not like dissension not being the same thing like making a pro uh a pro democrat or pro republican post on instagram is going to get you criticism and support

in north america in when if you do that as a russian player i i think it's unquestionable you're taking on a greater level of um of of scrutiny and risk and and what it means for how you're viewed and what the implications might be if you're down the road. I mean, that reality underlies all of this entire conversation. So it's something that's difficult. Like you,

at the same time, you kind of go, obviously, there's sort of an objective reality here where you go, like, what is happening in Ukraine is not, is horrific. At the same time, you have to understand the personality

and the pressures that, like, that are at play. And I think it's not as easy as a conversation as I see some people saying, it's like, it's Putin, therefore I'm not going to celebrate this accomplishment. It's, it's, it's, it's, much more complicated than that. And I think it's something that is, you know, hockey fans have

to grapple with. And it's something that, you know, we'll be grappling with for some time when we talk about the legacy of a player who is so celebrated, but, but also has this, um, this other political reality tied to him. I wonder when we're going to really have this discussion, because we're having it right now. But I feel like people for the most part, you know, except for there's loud corners of the internet. Like you said, there's Dominic Hachek, there's, you know, Slava Malamu. There are people on the internet that are railing against Alex Ovechkin because of his ties to Putin. But it's not as loud as maybe I expected it to become.

It doesn't feel like that's been a major storyline throughout this process. Everyone's just kind of having fun and hitching right. I wonder does it happen when he's up for the Hall of Fame? Like at what point do you start talking about the larger legacy here? Or does it just never happen because we're in North America and we don't care what a Russian player think? I think that might be the reality in the end. I mean, I think the conversation will always happen in the way that we're having it and in some circles and some very loud critics will point out what we should all be talking about and that this is a reality that we can't just sort of ignore. But at the same time, you know, when he retires, he'll be celebrated.

When he goes to the Hall of Fame, he'll be celebrated. Hockey is a sport that likes to avoid difficult conversations. we all know that very well. Mark, you know that very, very well, obviously. This is not something that is a comfortable space for the hockey establishment or for hockey fans or for hockey journalists. And so I think that this is something that, you know, will always exist as sort of that, you know, that elephant in the room that, you know, people try to avoid. And I do at the same time, like, rightfully celebrate what Alsevichan has meant to the game. So, yeah, I think the conversation will continue as sort of as it has and as we're having right now. The first tell for me, Lass, we talked about it a while back when we did the player poll.

I expected that to be a much more hotly contested vote. Do you want to see Alex Ovech can break Gretzky's goals record? It was like, it was a landslide. It was like 95 to 5. Yeah, exactly, yeah. He is beloved. I mean, this is the thing around the league. Like I was, it was interesting when I was reporting the story, you know, the part that I thought was, and I guess it wasn't surprising afterwards,

but after every game he has a table set beside him of things to autograph, whether they win or lose. Like the staff comes to him, the equipment staff comes in, like, they're sort of as quiet, like we're upset, we're angry with the loss. But he still sits there and signs for the opposing players, almost by and large, is always opposing players who have set them something and it has some of their request. And, you know, I was talking with, like Harbury about this. And we had a, he wasn't in the story, but one of the interviews I did,

he was talking about being in San Jose and they're walking out. and Tyler to Fully, I don't know if you can stick in his hand. You can see it like going to go into his car. And that's true everywhere he goes. Like this is not somebody that there's any debate about whether or not he's one of the most liked players in this game. And I think everyone like celebrated him scoring that goal in the league because they, they met, they see what he met. And most of them grew up, like, admiring him. Like Tom Wilson was telling me about how he grew up with like a poster on his wall, which is, you know, an Ovi just found out recently and was sort of laughing at, you know,

like when they were playing in Toronto, it was like, this is a big deal because like, you grew up here and, and, you know, you grew up with me on your wall and they're very good friends, obviously, now. But that's the kind of level of admiration. It's Sydney Crosby level admiration. All the players in the league now, these guys are the old men. These are the guys that they grew up being like, this is the greatest goal scorer. We're probably one of the greatest players of all time. And there is that kind of respect that others, you know, had for Gretzky and before that for, you know,

or and how. It's funny. This really would be a much easier discussion if he were just a jerk, right? If you were as a boring, you know, malcontent who was, this would be just an easier conversation for people to have. He's one of the likable players in the game. I was just fixing a friend about this. You know, to talk about a veshkin and how interesting.

And I think like he's, he's, for the reason we're talking about before, he's one of the most interesting hockey personalities that we have. I mean, there are a lot of boring hockey players. Like, you know, and that's, you know, not their fault. That's just the reality of the culture of the game. And he, since he started, brought this sort of a unique, electric personality that was criticized to the start and I think now was widely celebrated. He, we talked about how him and Crosby changed the game, but I think in many ways, and then they

did for in multiple areas, but personality wise, Oveshkin brought a flare and an excitement that, you know, I think the HL hadn't in a few players, but hadn't seen like, you know, in Oveshkin before. And he set a tone. And I think he's, you know, he's been great for the game for that reason. Can you tell us really quick? You mentioned it earlier about the stick collection. I know what you're referring to. I don't know if everyone knows about Alex Ovechkin's, like, museum of sticks that he has. Yeah, yeah, and his house, he's just, he's just collected,

like, actually, one of the things I did make in the story that I saw at the Packer's Rink was, he's got these sticks that he now gets custom made in Wetape, which is also another kind of wild story about how Slicy's about his sticks, which I think is probably understandable, but it's, I find kind of interesting. And in the middle of the

rack, there's an Austin Matthews steak, and I was asking them, like, where did this come from? He's like, oh, he probably got it from the last time they played. Like, he collects player sticks. His kids are obviously into this stuff as well. But he's got this, you know, just as part of his, his, you know, his home in Washington, in Ireland, or the side of Washington, DC's, he's got this massive collection. He's a huge fan of, of the game for that reason. So, yeah, it's one of the, you know, if he ever makes that sort of like, you know, public, it would, I think it would be quite interesting to see sort of what he's, what he's, his accumulator over the years.

It's another thing that makes him likeable, right, is that he does seem to be a fan of the game. So many these players, they're not really memorabilia types. They don't really have any sentimentality. I remember like Brent Seabrook telling me he's got one stick. It was the one that he scored the game seven overtime winner against Detroit in 2013 and he feels sheepish having it on his wall. Like you're not supposed to do that as a hockey player. You're not supposed to celebrate yourself or anything. And here's Ovechkin. He's like a fanboy out there. Like, you know, trying to get Wayne Gretzky to sign a stick. It's, it's endearing. Well, I think it's also why he's so willing to do it for others. I mean, it's this like the hottest, the hottest item

financial player to have right now is an OV stick that's signed from this year, right? It's, and he's been signing everyone, I should say also, Gretzky, he signed every stick he scored a goal with. That's one of the sticks he actually gave Oveshian. So after Oveshian learned about that, he started doing the same. So since he's, since that moment, he's signed every stick he scores with and they set that aside. But so he loves that part of the game. But it's not just because he's like, oh, I'm so great, you want something. There's this sort of, there's this sort of, like, interesting connection between that. It's like, this is, it's a celebration of the game, I kind of look at it as a love for the game, the love for, you know,

athletic, you know, greatness in a way. And that he sort of is always like in a, in a boyish way, really celebrated that. And, you know, that, that obviously comes through just in the way that he's celebrating his own glory right now. But even if you see it, like, you see him talking about his teammates and, oh, I went to the team. And there's like, there's sort of that like, okay, of course you're going to say that. But if you get to know, like, the Washington capitals, which I was able to do over a time when I was working on the story. Like that locker room is so just like that is Ovi's locker room. Like everything he does in that locker room, all the jokes, everything he does,

they all sort of orbit around Ovechkin, not just because he's this, you know, on this goal score who's going to break the record because of what he's met to that franchise is obviously for 20 years, but also because of his personality, like texting guys and calling them when they show up. But he, one thing I wasn't aware of when I started the story really was that sort of leadership kind of element to this game that I do think is also probably overlooked a lot of the times when we talk about him because he's obviously the greatest goal score of all time. But there's this other component to it.

A lot of the success that the capitals are having right now, I don't think it's just sort of like false praise to say that Alex Ovechkin has played a huge role in what the Washington capitals have become this season. Great stuff as always, Dan. Thanks so much for joining us. We're going to take a quick break right there. We'll come back with Jesse Granger. All right, we are back.

Jesse Grange, you're going to join us any minute here. But first, just wanted to tell you all about the athletic hockey shows, a playoff crisis line. Something new we're going to try this postseason. When the playoffs start, you can leave a short, and when I say short, talking 20, 30 seconds, please. Voice Mail telling us why your favorite team is in trouble, what you're seeing, what you're thinking. We want to hear all of it. We're going to listen to some of these on the show, play them on the podcast. Number to call is 321, 2, 2, 2, 2, 79, 7.

That's 321, 222, 792, 792, and we are very much looking forward to hearing your very panicked messages. Before Jesse gets here, Laz, that is going to be really fun, by the way. It's going to be a blast. I just want to pick up a little bit on the Ovechkin conversation, spinning it forward, because you brought something up off the air that I do think is kind of interesting, had not considered it for a minute. You think Ovechkin has a little bit of a heart case here. I don't think that he's going to win, but I think he deserves to be in the decision. discussion. I mean, you know, besides just the absurdity of his season where he's a 39-year-old who broke his freaking leg and has 42 goals in 61 games, kind of what Dan was saying at the end of that

last segment, where he is the engine that makes this whole thing go in Washington. He is the player on and off the ice who really has kind of changed the culture and pushed that team into contention. And when you look at a year like this where there's no clear-cut favorite, I mean, Leon Drysidle, sure, Connor Hellebuck's, Sure. Nathan McKinnon, sure. But there's no clear cut number one. I think we're going to see Ovechkin sneak onto some ballots here. You can rake a very strong argument that he belongs in the top five of this discussion. It's interesting because I do tend to view the award as like the player that means the most to his team. And it is a little hard to argue that Ovechkin has been one of the five most important players. How many times have we talked on this show this year about we don't understand why the capitals are good? Alex Ovechkin is a lot to do with it. He is. There's no doubt about that.

And I think when you put up his goals totals, like it's a competitive goals total, especially when you consider how much time has missed. I do tend to like, I do have a little bit of like a mental minimum of how much I need guys to play for them to end up on my award ballots. I think he's going to get there, though. I usually think of it as being, you know, 60 to 65 games and he's at 61. So unless he sits, he's pretty comfortably in that range. So it's an interesting conversation. I just, I just feel like we've almost, it's so absurd to say given how much attention we put on him.

we've been talking about the record. We haven't been talking about his season. His season, age 39, broken leg or not, has been pretty spectacular. He is scoring at will here. He's doing things that you're not supposed to be able to do in the NHL. And I just feel like he deserves a little recognition beyond, you know, he's kind of like, you know, we're fetting him for the record and his career and the spectacular nature of his accomplishment.

But he's also been just fabulous this season and deserves some recognition for that. Obviously, he's a very much, he's a one-dimensional player right now. We know he's not what he was 15 years ago when he was just a wrecking ball out there. He's not having the two-way impact he used to have on the game. But man, the hardest thing to do in hockey is score goals, and he does it better than anybody still. Yeah, to your point, he's got a very good chance to finish second in the NHL and Giles. Drysidal is going to score the most goals in the league. And I think Drysettle will finish above him on virtually every, if not every MVP ballot.

But if Ovechkin outpaces, Tage Thompson and William Nylander, who were the only two guys ahead of him between, you know, after dry settle this year, it becomes an interesting conversation. I will give you that. If he, if he is to finish that high, there's a pretty good chance he's going to do it while also hitting 900, by the way, which is pretty cool. Yeah, that's another thing Dylan Stront told me the other day. He goes, but he's like, don't put this in the story until after the game, but he's going to get to 900 this year.

Like, they're just, like, they're in awe of him in that room right now and what he's doing. I guess the question now is how high does he get? How many years does he have left? He's still scoring at like a 50 goal of season pace here. Can he get to a thousand? Is that feasible? I think if his single-minded goal was a thousand, then he could play long enough to do it. But I just look at his contract and there's one year left on it. To me, that looks like a very natural retirement point, especially now. You know, in Dan's story, he talks about how important family is to Ovechkin and, you know,

what does he have to keep chasing really at this point once that contract is up and he's 40 years old? and, you know, but if it became that important to him to hit 1,000, or if Washington is just that good that they're right on the doorstep and he starts to, you know, taste another Stanley Cup kind of thing and wants to do another year, then it becomes at least a conversation. I mean, there's no reason for us to think that he can't score 40 goals a year for the next two or three years. Do you think he's looking over his shoulder at Austin Matthews, who is actually scoring at a higher goals per game rate than Ovechkins has in his career

and thinking, I need to put as much distance as possible here? I don't, but maybe. I mean, I've never asked him, right? But Matthews' health, I think, is a factor that's going to really limit anyone from, you know, him specifically from chasing him. That's the thing about Ovechkin, yes, is, you know, I wrote that, you know, I wrote a piece kind of trying to put it in historical context. And, you know, Gretzky, his last year was 38 years old. He scored seven goals in our nine goals and 70 games. And Ovechkin, a year after that, has 42 and 61 right now.

Like, Gretzky's peak years were absurd. absurd, of course. His first, like, dozen years were absolutely absurd. But it's Ovechkin who's been able to do it forever. And that's not how this usually goes. He's still scoring at a 50-goal pace at this age. And if he can do this for another year or two, he can get, if a thousand's in his sight, this is a guy who likes the big numbers, right? Like, that's got to be tempting to get just signed another one-year contract and see if that gets you there, another one-year contract after that. Ted Leonis will pay him forever as long as he wants to keep chasing records. So I, man, I don't know. It's got to be tempting to him.

On the conversation of whether anyone can break this, there is an element to this that is going to depend on the rule changes, right? And how easy is it to score in the NHL? And for that, I want to bring in Jesse Granger for the Granger Zone, presented by BetMGM. Welcome to the Granger Zone. And Jesse, let's just start right here, because you and Down Goes Brown, Sean McIndoo, had a really good article this week. It was the NHL goalie debate, the expert you and the hater, BGB. arguing on all kinds of topics. And the first one was equipment.

And the first debate was, is goalie equipment too big? And to me, I mean, I'll get your answer in a second. To me, this is one of the biggest factors of whether anyone can threaten Ovechkin's new goal record is, are they going to shrink the goalie pads? Yeah, definitely. And it's, I mean, he and I went back and forth on it. The problem is, I think they could do some shrinking to the leg pads. I think they could do some shrinking to the blocker. I think they may even be able to take some of the cuff off of the catching glove.

But everybody that's watching that that's listening right now that wants the pads shrunk, those aren't the pads they want shrunk. They want the chest protector shrunk. And that's because they haven't faced a slap shot with one of those things on. I'm telling you, they're not as tank armor bulletproof as they look. And there's a reason they're as big as they are. And even wearing them as big as they are facing guys that aren't shooting it nearly as as the guys in the NHL, I get hit in spots that hurt all the,

time, like once every two games at least. The only way to make them smaller and still protect people is making them not be able to move. They'd look like an arm, like a, like a knight's armor back in medieval times where you literally can't move your arms or anything. You need to put some me thrill on these guys. Right, right. So the reason they're so big is because they have to do it in layers in order to be able to let the goalies still be able to move while having a reasonable amount of protection. They already shrunk the chest protectors in 2018. And I, I talked to goalies back when that happened and they said, yeah, oh, yeah, I'm getting way more stingers up near the collarbone. That's probably the easiest spot to get hurt as a goalie is around the neck collarbone area.

And I just don't see a way they're going to make the chest protector smaller without it getting dangerous. Like I wrote a story a few years ago about talking to old goalies and they're like, yeah, like, we didn't practice really because practice hurts too much. So you didn't want to like get injured. So we didn't really train much at all. Otherwise, you'd be too injured to play. and we're obviously not going to go back to a point where goalies are like that. So the chest protectors aren't going anywhere, no matter how much people hate how big they are. They're going to have to find other ways to make it easier to score on these guys.

And one of those could be the Nets. That's also in your piece, argument number four in this debate. Should they make the Nets a little bit bigger? Yeah, it's funny. I saw, I won't say which Golden Knights goalie. I've covered a few over the years. I will say I saw a reporter approach a goalie in the locker room and asking him, Hey, what do you think about making the nets bigger?

His face looked like he had insulted every ancestor and his entire family. I've never seen this goalie more upset in my life than his face. Just offhand suggestion, like absolutely not. I'd stop playing hockey. It would be a big, big, big adjustment. Maybe that's what we're looking for. Maybe we're looking for the goalies to be out of water and not have their bearings the way they do. Because clearly, they've mastered it right now.

It's so hard to score on these guys. if it's not a lateral pass or a deflection or a screen, they have mastered the angles. And maybe all this training that they've done their entire lives, maybe if you can just throw that in the trash and give them different angles to work on, we probably would see a ton of goals, not just because of the extra net area you can shoot at, but just because these guys aren't as comfortable as they are now. So yes, I do think that if you were trying to give shooters more space to shoot at, I think you're going to have better success making the net bigger than you will try to shrink these pads that look massive, but they are big for a reason.

All right, Jesse, I want a goalie's perspective on this. I have a column that that ran this morning in the athletic. It's basically saying that Ovechkin has been the greatest goal score of all time for a long time now. Because when you watch Wayne Gretzky's goals, like these goalies were freaking pathetic. They were like five foot two wearing these tiny little pads. They're playing stand-up style, just flailing at the puck. Just how much more difficult is it to score in the? NHL now than it was in, say, 1984. Yeah, I mean, it's obviously a lot more difficult.

And, like, I always, like, yes, those goalies did look pathetic, but I also like to just compare guys within their era because that's all you, you can only compare to your temporaries. And like, those guys did some amazing things. But the science wasn't there. Like it, in terms of, and when I say that, I mean, like, we figured out as a goalie community, the angles, the correct way to play everything. Back then, there weren't goalie coaches.

Most of those goalies were their own coach. And that's why everybody looked different. And that's why all the goalies nowadays all look the same because they've all been trained the exact same techniques because there are techniques that are proven to be superior. Whereas back then, everybody was just kind of flying by the seat of their pants, trying to figure out what to do. Certain guys would figure it out faster than others. And they'd be unstoppable.

Like it was a wild west of sorts. And yes, it's much harder to score. I wrote a piece on how breakable each of, of Gretzky's remaining records are. And one of them was like, okay, goals in a season, 92. We're seeing this up to it. We saw Austin Matthews get as close as anyone's gotten in a long time. He's still only about 66% of the way there.

But what I did was I looked at like league shooting percentage, league save percentage. And it's like, okay, we went from 915 just 10 years ago all the way down to 900 this year. And at one point, it was actually below 900. Ben won the scoring title with 87 points just a decade ago. Like, it's changed a lot. It's gotten, yeah. Right. So we've gotten all the way down to 900. It's like, okay, well, so how close are we to what it was when Gretzky was doing all that? Well, it was like 870 something back then. So no, it's not even remotely close. And to go from 915 to 900, to go down to 870, that's not happening. Like they're, unless they are removing goaltenders limbs from them.

Like, okay, you're going to be a goal in the NHL? Well, pick one. You get either your left or your right arm. That's the only way we're getting down to 870. So no, yeah, I don't think we're ever going to reach the scoring that they did back then, but we don't need to. Or they can put a Philadelphia Flyers jersey on every goalie and then they would have maybe be at 877.

Yeah, all games are played in the state of Pennsylvania. But I don't, I don't know. Maybe it's just because I'm a goalie guy. I like that it's hard to score. Like, I'm with you. When a goal is scored in the NHL, it means something. Like, it's not quite soccer. Soccer, it's like when a goal is scored in soccer, that's the game.

It's like you can celebrate like you won the game and you scored a goal in soccer. It's not quite like that in hockey. And I don't think it needs to, we don't need one nothing games. But I like that goals have a bigger magnitude. If every game is 6-5, goals don't have the same type of celebration. They don't have the same type of meaning. I like where we're at now. 10 years ago was a problem.

It was getting a little too close to soccer. Where we're at now, this kind of happy medium where goals are up, but they're not obscenely up. We're like a 900, 905 is like an average save percentage. I think we've kind of hit this sweet spot where you do have guys putting up 140 points. And you do have Austin Matthews threatening 70 goals. But it's also like not everybody's doing that. We don't have four 40 goals scores in every team like we did in 92, 93. I think we've kind of found that sweet spot right now.

Yeah, not to be the 10 millionth person to pile on the NBA for their scoring output. But I went to an NBA game earlier this year and kind of noticed that feeling of just like, I no longer react to a made shot. I only get mad at a missed shot. And I think that's a bad place to be for a sport. You know what I mean? It is. Definitely.

And to Mark's point about hitting the sweet spot, it's also, we're scoring more goals now, but they're awesome goals, right? Because the goalies are so good, these goals, it's not, like you said, it doesn't look like the goals Wayne Gretzky scored where back then it's like, I was talking to Bruce Cassie. it's like, oh, you get inside the blue line and you just take clappers. And there's a good chance. If you hit the net, one of them's going in from out there.

Or the goalie comes out to the high slot and you deak around him. You still have four steps to skate it into an empty net. Yes, yes. Jesse, you did have an interesting story, too, you know, kind of in tandem to this. But it's the pieces, NHO goalies are better than ever. What are the best scorers doing to regain an edge? I think it kind of speaks to what you're talking about there, right? It's not just equipment that has caused the save percentage dynamic to shift from Gretzky's era.

Goleys are way better than they ever were. And that means players have to be even better to find a way to score. And I think the uptick over the last 10 years really speaks to the advancements that skaters and shooters have made more than anything. Yeah, absolutely. It was a fun piece to write because there are so many little nuances that you have to almost slow it down to a frame by frame to be able to see what some of these scores are doing to trick these goalies. And like, that was kind of the premise of the story is it's like, I think shooting hard and shooting accurately are becoming less important. And the most important factor of a goal score is how good are you at concealing your true intentions and giving the goalie false information? Because these goleys have gotten, they're not just more athletic than ever.

They read the play so well. And they read the stick blades of these players. They read the way their shoulders dip, the angles their bodies turn, where they're holding the puck in relation to their body. There's so many cues that these goalies are reading to the point where it's like, and I kind of broke it down in the piece using a Harvard study. I don't think I've ever linked to Harvard study in one of my stories, but it was reaction time and how much time a person can actually like react to. And once the puck gets inside the face off circles, these goalies literally do not have the time to react to the flight of the puck. They are guessing where this

puck is going based on the way this guy's stick is angled when he's firing it. And they're really good at it. If you had a guy shoot with no puck, it was just an invisible puck, the goalie would know where the guy's shooting 99% of time. But these shooters are now using that against the goalies. Like Sidney Crosby had a beautiful one against Ilius Samsonoff for Vegas where he opens the stick blade real wide and it looks like he's going high blocker. And Samsonoff even punches his blocker out like it was going to be a blocker shot. And then at the last second, he curls his, he flicks his wrist, curls the toe of the stick down and fires it low along the ice and it beats him five hole and it makes the goalie look like a fool.

Nikita Kucharov has a very similar one that he uses on almost every breakaway he tries where he comes in, he pulls the puck way out wide and it makes the goalie kind of nervous because now he's off of his angle. And it looks like he's shooting high blocker. The goalie throws his blocker out super aggressively and then Kutrov just kind of curls it inside underneath his armpit where his blocker was if the goal he just hadn't moved. But he's baiting him into that move and then shooting where the space is that he's opening up. And there are a lot of other examples in that story. But it's just, it's really cool to me to watch this like chess match between the goalies and the scores. Yeah, anecdotally, I feel like defensemen are picking up on that better. They're doing

a better job of a blog. Like I watched Connor Bedard when he first got into league last year, he had that really deceptive kind of like drag and drive where he would just hold on to it an extra split second and then shoot in kind of in the other direction. Every time he tries that now, though, a defenseman's on him and is prepared for it. And like they're trying to save the goalies that trouble because the defensemen are are better able to stop some of those shots than the goalies are. Yeah. It's really cool. It's a, it's, I feel like hockey's in a good spot.

All right. Last thing, Jesse, I want to get your take on the playoff odds specifically in the East Wildcard. It seems like it's getting to a point where we can Montreal is starting to pull away here, especially as they keep winning. I leverage game against Detroit on Tuesday that I think I guess could put things back into the margin. But where's Vegas at on Montreal's playoff chances right now? Yeah, the odds makers agree with you.

Montreal's all the way up to a minus 900 favorite to make the playoffs. So a $90 bet would win you $10 on that. They're pretty confident that's going to happen. And then kind of goes along with that. The rest of them are getting pretty high odds. The Rangers are currently the next closest team at 900 plus 900, so 9 to 1 odds that they'll make it. Detroit's at 13 to 1 and the Islanders are 20 to 1. Staying alive after that game yesterday that everybody watched.

So, yeah, it's, it's, the races aren't coming down to the final day. It looks like, especially in the West, too, it's really starting to differentiate itself. So we're not going to get those last couple days of hockey that really means something, which is what I was hoping for. But they have been at least semi-intertaining races. We've had some meaningful games down the stretch. And some big swings, right? You know, St. Louis getting red hot scorching.

It doesn't make for the most interesting last two days of the season, but it's been a pretty good story for the last three weeks. Spot on, yeah. And to have the franchise that's been around as long as the blues, to have the longest winning streak in franchise history, when you basically, like if you would have rewound to back before it started, it's like, well, they could make the playoffs, but it would take, I don't know, the longest winning streak in franchise history,

to just do it in that spot and have the longest win streak you've ever had. That's what you needed to make the playoffs. That's pretty cool. That's amazing. All right. That's going to do it for us. Thanks for listening to the athletic hockey show. Please leave us a rating and a review if you're enjoying the show.

We certainly would appreciate five. stars. And if you like a show with not one but two shons on it, great news for you. Sean Jantilly and Sean McIndoo are back on Thursday. Before that, you'll have Haley, Salvean and Sean Jantilly on Wednesday. We'll talk to you soon.