The Athletic Hockey Show - Ottawa Senators hire Pierre McGuire, Vladimir Tarasenko’s trade request with Jeremy Rutherford, Nikita Kucherov’s “$18m Over The Cap” t-shirt, Multiple Choice Madness, and more

Episode Date: July 12, 2021

First, Ian and Hailey discuss the Ottawa Senators hiring the polarizing, longtime broadcaster Pierre McGuire as senior vice president of player development, Nikita Kucherov making waves ahead of the Tampa Bay Lightning Stanley Cup parade with an Instagram selfie wearing an “$18m Over The Cap” t-shirt, whether the actual expansion draft or the potential trades leading up to it are more exciting, and more.Then, The Athletic’s own Jeremy Rutherford joins the show to talk about St. Louis Blues winger Vladimir Tarasenko’s trade request, what his trade value is after three shoulder surgeries, which are the biggest point of contention between him and the organization, possible landing spots, if the Tkachuk Brothers could end up as teammates at some point, GM Doug Armstrong’s biggest issues ahead of the protection list deadline, and more.Plus, to close things out, Ian and Hailey run through a series of Multiple Choice Madness questions including which big name player will be traded first this offseason, which current TV broadcaster would fit in an NHL front office, and if the NHL should decide playoff games with shootouts.And, don’t forget, you can sign up for an annual subscription to The Athletic for just $3.99 a month when you visit http://theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back. It's another episode of the Athletic Hockey Show. Ian Mendez-Haley Salve, Ian to kick off your week in the hockey world. And the NHL off-season is now in full swing. We'll chat about the latest rumors and rumblings around the league. Jeremy Rutherford will stop by with the latest on the Vlad Teresenko rumors and what the blues might be up to in the weeks ahead. We'll discuss Nikita Kuturov's wardrobe choice on the weekend as he was flaunting the fact that his Tampa team was 18 million over the cap

with a custom-made t-shirt. And as we talked about off the top here, it's going to be a big week. For general managers around the league, they're going to finalize their rosters ahead of the Seattle expansion draft. We'll chat about which teams could have some protection issues. As always, we'll wrap up with a little multiple choice madness.

And I'll ask the super soccer fan, Haley, if she'd ever like to see penalty shots, decided an important NHL game like we saw with the Euro Cup on the weekend. but Haley, as we kick off these Monday edition of the athletic hockey show, I got to ask you because it's not often that the team that I cover is the main talking point league-wide, but that is the case. Not always senators announcing they have hired Pierre Maguire, long-time NBC broadcaster in a senior role with the hockey club.

He's going to work in tandem with Pierre Dori on the general manager. I want you to tell me what your initial reaction was, if you saw it on Twitter, if somebody texted you, and what your reaction was to the news that Pierre McGuire is headed to Ottawa. Yeah, so I can show you. I mean, people listening won't be able to see it because this is a podcast and not on video, but you can clearly see at 7.4 a.m.,

my very good friend, Jessica, we worked together in Oshawa, texted me at 704, the news release that just said, pardon, question mark. And my response was just, what? That was my reaction. What? 7 a.m. just waking up, getting ready for my day.

And I get this news release sent to me. And my reaction was just, what? Now, I couldn't see your screen grab there. That's WUT what, right? No, you know what? I spelled it properly. I know. Big mistake.

Big mistake. Yeah. Yeah. And it wasn't just like lowercase WUT, which probably would have had more of a dramatic effect. Yeah. But no, my initial reaction was about the same as my friend who sent it to me. We were both just like, oh, okay, this happened today.

But this is your team, Ian. This is your area of expertise. So I'm throwing it back to you. I'm switching seats here. Yeah, listen, this is, look, when the Ottawa senator said that they wanted to hire somebody in hockey operations a couple of years ago, I think a lot of people thought they were going to bring in a veteran hockey person that would inject stability into the front office. I think when you bring in Pierre McGuire, Pierre is one of the most polarizing people in the hockey world.

There's no other way to put it, right? He's polarizing. There's people who really respect and like what Pierre McGuire's done. And then there's people who hate everything about him. And so this is going to be an interesting dynamic. Pierre is one of those people that creates a referendum on hockey. And, you know, in fact, in his media availability today, I asked them straight up. I said, Pierre, there's people out there.

This is to Pierre McGuire. People believe that you hate analytics. What's your response to that? And he said, look, I don't hate analytics, but. And then there was a butt. And he went on to talk a little bit about how he believes in, and he used the term boots on the ground number of times. You need boots on the ground.

You need to see things with your eyes. And so I think this is going to be interesting because you've got somebody who is rightly or wrongly. The reputation is he's old school, right? And how is that going to fit in with a team that's trying to win in the salary cap era with some limited resources? The Ottawa senators need to learn how to punch above their weight. And this is going to be interesting. You're bringing in somebody again who's got a reputation of being old school. And this is going to be fascinating because another element of this, Haley,

and I think this is really important for our listeners to know, a big part of Pierre McGuire's job is going to be doing interviews with the media, with fans, doing all sorts of availability. That's huge, right? Like for an organization that has struggled to get their messaging, Now, where I do think, Pierre, he is a very loquacious, gifted talker. Okay. So remove any opinions you may have of him, the guy can speak and he can speak well,

and he can speak for long stretches. So from that perspective, I think it's a good thing for the organization that has been starving for some sort of consistent voice that's comfortable in front of the cameras. They got it. The question is, what's the message coming out of that mouth that's going to be interesting? And that's where we're going to see in the next few months. This is going to be a super interesting situation. Yeah, well, I think the way that you describe it as, you know, him being polarizing, you know,

I don't think that should be like something that's offensive because I think it's true. When you look at the reaction, even just on Twitter with the Sends, I see some people defending the higher. I see some people saying like, why? Why did this happen? I don't like this, you know, but then I also see people saying, you know, who else could they have hired? Find someone who has more experience in the broadcast realm or in the front office, et cetera. So there's two very different sides to this. So I think polarizing is the best way to put it. To me, what I found interesting was the discussion about analytics and good on you for asking the question. because I think that's one of the major things that has made him so polarizing is the ways in which he would speak about analytics on broadcasts and obviously the way he thinks about underlying numbers.

And I think that analytics cannot be the entire piece of the puzzle. Analytics can't be the entire puzzle. Analytics cannot be the catch one, oh, look at his game score or look at his coursey or his. expected goals, that's what the player is. There's a lot more that goes into the game than analytics. And so I understand a little bit of it, but I think that it needs to be a piece of it. I think the boots on the ground, I think knowing the players, knowing they're intangibles, knowing things that don't show up on the score sheet are important as well.

So it's going to be really interesting to see what happens. And, you know, I think at the end of the day, you know, Pierre McGuire is going to be reporting to Pierre Dorian. And it seems like they are quite aligned in what their vision is for the team. And that's probably aligned with Eugene Melnick as well. So, you know, I don't know how much this hire would ultimately move the needle in a negative way if he has the same kind of thought process and vision for the Ottawa senators as the general manager. I think it's just another support position. I don't know if I'm on the right track there, but my sense is this isn't going to, you know,

move the needle drastically one way or the other. Yeah. And I think another question I asked to Pierre Dorian today, and I had to ask it two times because the first time I asked it, I think I was so clumsy and awkward. I was trying to couch it and not be a jerk by asking, hey, Pierre, Dorian, are you worried that Pierre McGuire is going to steal your job?

But you can't ask it like that. You can't, no. Right? So I tried to couch it and I'm like, you know, it's human nature. You've got one year left on your contract. And he's like, sorry, is there a question in there? And I'm like, okay. Is Pierre Dorian worried that Pierre McGuire is going to take his job?

So I had to boil it down. But listen, I really appreciate Pierre Dorian's ability to, A, you know, I just seek some clarity on my question. But then B, go into a rather long-winded response, a very detailed, I don't mean long-winded in a bad way. I mean a very detailed response to my question. So I appreciate that from Pierre Dorian. And he's saying, look, I don't believe that that's the case. I don't believe that Pierre McGuire wants my job.

But I do think, Haley, there's an element out there of, there's a segment of the fan base who believe that now they've got Pierre McGuire waiting in the wings, that if the season doesn't start the way it should and the owner gets in its you trigger finger, Dorian is out, McGuire is in. That's the feeling from a lot of people that are looking at this. And I thought it was interesting too, Haley, at one point in his media availability, Pierre McGuire says, and as I try to guess the timeline on this, I'm guessing 2013, 2014.

Pierre Maguire, Haley, says he was offered a general manager's job in the NHL, but turned it down, says, I had seven years left on my deal with NBC. the team that offered me the general manager's job would only offer me a two-year deal. And I told then, and again, I'm just relaying to our listeners what Pierre McGuire told us. McGuire says, I made a deal with NBC that I would only leave if I got a GM's job

and there was some degree of security around that, meaning a four-year deal. This team was only willing to go two years. I said thanks, but no thanks. and went back to broadcasting between the glass. So take that for what it is. That's Pierre McGuire saying he had the opportunity to be a general manager and turned it down. I still think at the end of the day, if you work in hockey operations,

you would eventually aspire to be a general manager. So whether or not that happens in Ottawa, I don't know. But I think that that is absolutely food for thought. Well, it's interesting that he brought that up. surely it was in response to a question that led him to that place. But you don't just bring up the fact that you'd been offered GM jobs before for no reason. So it's interesting to think about what this could mean for the future. You know, I think there, with any rebuilding team, there's always going to be questions around,

okay, is the general manager who's leading us now going to be the one that wins a Stanley Cup with this team? Same with the coach. is the coach that you currently have right now leading the young players, the one to actually win a Stanley Cup, are they just the ones that are here for this transitional period? So that's always, you know, it's not a unique thing or a unique question for the Ottawa senators. I think that's just a question that always comes up with any kind of rebuild. So having Pierre McGuire in that position and these questions already starting is, it's

going to be interesting to see what happens in the next couple of years with the senators. I mean, even before McGuire got hired, it was always going to be interesting to keep an eye on the Ottawa senators. I think they're on a great trajectory, but this just adds another little layer to it. Yeah. And, you know, ideally, what Ottawa wants to do, Haley,

some point down the road, they want to be riding down the Rideo Canal and some boats for a Stanley Cup parade. That's, we've always thought in Ottawa, that's how they would do it. They would ride down the canal in boats. And that's what they're doing in Tampa today. Stanley Cup Parade in Tampa,

and Nikita Kutjurov Haley in the news on the weekend for a photo that has gone viral. So to explain it to our listeners here, Nikita Kuturov, who led the Stanley Cup playoffs in scoring, after missing the entire regular season, became a little bit of a polarizing lightning rod for criticism. See what I did there, lightning rod for criticism, by essentially skipping the regular season, circumventing the cap and coming back and helping Tampa win the cup. Kutjurov on the weekend, Haley, posts a photo to Instagram of himself with the Stanley Cup trophy. He's on a boat in Tampa.

Stanley Cup trophy in one arm. The Vince Lombardi trophy, the Super Bowl trophy of the Tampa Buccaneers, and the other arm. And if you look closely, you're like, wait a minute, what shirt is he wearing? He's wearing a shirt that says $18 million over the cap.

He is leading into this in a big way. Listen, I know we had a lot of thoughts and feelings about the Nikita Kutjurov shirtless presser. How do we feel about shirt on Nikita Kuturov with this $18 million over the cap t-shirt? I think it's funny. I think it's awesome. We talk so much about hockey players being boring and we need to show, we want their personality and we need to get some kind of entertainment. and et cetera, et cetera. And I think that the shirts are funny.

It's showing personality, just like the press conference was. You might not agree with it. You might not personally find it funny. But there's a lot of people who do, and there's a lot of people who are seeing those shirts. I mean, some of the guys of actually are wearing it right now on the boat parade, the 18 million over the cap shirts. I also see one that says cup boat parade repeat,

which is another little tongue and cheek idea. There was also the number one bullshit shirts that I saw. Like this is funny. This is players and teams and sponsors being in tune with the narrative, being in tune with like what's been going on, what people are talking about. And they're capitalizing on it in a fun way. And I just don't have a problem with it.

Um, if the league had serious problems with the cap circumvention stealing, or stealing, cheating, you know, whatever we want to call it, um, they would have made that change years ago. Um, when this came up the first time or it wasn't even the first time, just, you know, when this kind of thing with injuries, when it came up last time, the league would have made a change. Like what the Tampa Bay Lightning did, we've said it many times. We'll say it one more time. The league investigated.

it was not cheating it happened and now they're making light and they're making fun and they're showing their personalities with these t-shirts i don't i don't have a problem with it i think it's funny and i kind of want one yeah well they're not just making light of the situation haley they're making no bud light of the situation i thought you're going to say lightning because kuturov no kuturov i already used that pun like kuturov signs the the endorsement deal too with Bud Light. Like, it's just like, boy, I'm not sure that I've seen an NHL player capitalize on something like we've seen Nikita Kutrov in the last 72 hours, right?

It's smart. It's smart for your personal brand. It's smart for your marketing. And it's something that we don't always see in the league. Like, how many times did something funny happen that a player just, like, wasted the opportunity on? you know, Philip Dineau, mind you, it was in the middle of the Stanley Cup playoffs. They lost.

Like the pizza is such an awesome opportunity for any kind of personal branding or partnerships. I believe he said that he was approached with some sponsorship deals, but he turned them down because he was focusing on the Stanley Cup final, which is understandable. But like that's a great opportunity for something, you know, more personal. like those scrums were great and the one with Cole Coughfield where he brought him a slice of pizza, like that's the stuff. That's the fun stuff that goes on social. You can make a brand. You can get a shirt, whatever. Another example that I thought was actually really fun was Ryan Johanson with the Preds when he had that clip of him just saying, we're vibe in. And that clip was used all the time. It was used throughout the playoffs. His brand actually ended up making t-shirts that said we're vibe in

Nashville. It's little things like that. It's great. The fans buy into it. It could get on a more national audience. You know, I just think, I think it's great. And I love seeing the players show their personality and branch out in these kind of ways. Yeah. I still think of the time Eric Carlson brought an Apple. Do you remember this? Eric Carlson brings an Apple to a press conference. Yeah. in San Jose and like he just takes a bite out of it. I'm like, how did he not get a deal with, you know, some orchard or something? It would have been perfect. Perfect.

Yeah. Like what, like what, is there an apple orchard in San Jose? They seriously made a mistake for not calling him. Yeah. All right. Haley, as we kind of alluded to at the very top of the show, this is a really busy week in the National Hockey League. It's kind of the first week of the off season.

And the number one item on the agenda, I think, for most general managers, is the fact that they got to have their expansion protected lists into the league by Saturday. And here's a question for you. Are you more excited for like this week leading up to the expansion draft and see who's protected, who's exposed and the side deals? Or are you more excited for the actual draft night itself, which is on the 21st where you're like, oh, that's who Calgary lost. or Ottawa lost or Philadelphia lost or Columbus, whoever it is your favorite team out there. Like what's more interesting to you? The actual expansion draft or all of the maneuvering leading up to it? I think it's going to be the actual expansion draft because this will be the first one that I actually get to cover. I was not working in the NHL full time when Vegas expansion happened.

I obviously followed it and I thought it was really interesting and cool. And it's, It's really fun to follow. It's, you know, a pretty unique thing, I think you could say in terms of the NHL. So I think it's the draft for me. I think there's just been so many storylines this season that we've been following with all of our mock drafts, all of our protection lists, running through side deal options, you know, looking at some of the UFAs that Seattle would have exclusive, you know, negotiating rights too in that little window before the draft. I think it's the whole thing, to be honest, because the side deals are obviously a huge part of it.

But some of the side deals, we won't actually find out until draft day. We won't maybe find out what some things were on the table that fell through until after the fact. I just think this year is kind of setting up to be really interesting because I think Vegas kind of set the table for a good blueprint. And I think a lot of teams are probably, wary of doing too many side deals or giving Seattle too much in return because they see the way

that Vegas was able to kind of leverage their position, leverage teams who are tight to the cap and just take so much. Some of those deals really, really worked out well for the Vegas Golden Knights. And I think some GMs are probably wanting to avoid that happening with the Seattle Cracken as well. So I don't know what some of these side deals will end up looking. like because of that. But I just think the whole package of, you know, that weekend or that week of the 17th until the 21st is going to be a really fun and interesting time. I know in Calgary, the big question is, are the flames going to lose Mark Trudano?

Like, that's not at all insignificant, losing your captain to expansion. And maybe if you don't lose them to expansion, like, do you, I mean, do you trade him before expansion so you don't lose him for nothing? especially if Seattle ends up flipping him, like was reported in 31 thoughts as a potential option. And that's just what the Calgary flames are looking at. It's not a unique, you know, issue. It's, that's the reality when there's an expansion draft.

A lot of teams are going to be set to lose players that they don't want to lose. And I think it's, it's obviously unfortunate for fan bases and for front offices, but watching it all unfold is probably going to be really fun. Yeah, I think the teams that are most interesting to watch this week, the aforementioned Tampa Bay Lightning, I think they obviously, you know, with the cap issue there, but more importantly, too, they're going to have a protection issue.

They're going to likely, looking at Joe Smith's reporting, they're likely going to be one of the rare teams that protects eight skaters because they want to protect four defensemen. But they're going to have some pretty good forwards available, whether it's Tyler Johnson, Alex Colon, those kind of $5 million players are going to be available to other teams. You know, there's a thought that maybe Ryan McDonough might be left exposed. There's a thought that maybe Cal Foot, who's a former Frischion pick, might be exposed.

And then you look at a team like Colorado. And Ryan Graves, a real good, big penalty-killing defenseman. I don't think the avalanche can protect him at this stage of the game. That's a pretty good player that might be available. Either maybe Joe Sackick's like, I don't want to lose this guy for nothing to Seattle. If I have to expose him, I would rather make a trade this week and get some assets for Ryan Graves than to lose him to Seattle for nothing. So those are a couple of teams. And then the Minnesota Wild, I know that Mike Russo has been reporting that I think as of right now,

they have not asked the Priese and Souter to waive their no movement clauses for their purposes of being exposed in the expansion draft. But there's a team in Minnesota that might have to put Matt. Dumba on the exposed list. And Matt Dumba is a pretty good defenseman who's got two years left at $6 million per. And if he's available, Seattle was all over him, you would think. So there's some teams that really have to do some gymnastics here in the next few days. So for me, I almost think I'm more excited about the week leading up to the draft than the draft itself. Yeah, especially if we consider a lot of those things with Dumba, with Gio, you know,

is there going to be a trade before the draft so the team doesn't have to protect that player? So will, you know, Minnesota, if they believe that Dumba would get taken for nothing, do they go and trade him for whatever they can get? The thing is, is you're probably trading that player for, like, you can't get a defenseman back for Matt Dumba because then you can't protect that defenseman that you just traded Matt Dumb before. So you're probably in a situation where you're trading guys for future assets, prospects, draft picks when in a non, you know, expansion draft time, maybe you could get something more significant for a player like Dunbar or a player like Mark Giudano.

So I agree with you. I think that week leading up is going to be really interesting. But I think the actual expansion is going to be just really cool too. And I'm excited to see what the Cracken social team, what their front office, what they do. because they've just been, it's a easy organization to watch and kind of root for from afar. I know we don't, we're not really fans of teams anymore. But, you know, I think we can all appreciate the way that the Cracken have done their job from the top down. And I think it's going to be a really fun and interesting couple of weeks here.

All right, Haley, as we've talked about here on the show, the offseason is in full swing. And I'll tell you, a lot of eyes I think are going to be on the St. Louis Blues. and that is because of the terrific reporting done by Jeremy Rutherford last week announcing that Vlad Teresenko might be looking for a change of scenery. So it's great to be having Jeremy join us here on the podcast. Thanks for taking the time. How are you today? Oh, that's great.

Good to be with you guys. Yeah, listen, let's start right there. Vlad Teresenko, I think for a lot of people outside of your market, maybe this game is a surprise. But walk us through why Vlad Teresenko might want to change the scenery. Yeah, it's been, I think, something that's been, brewing for quite some time. We all know that Vlad Tarasenko had the multiple shoulder surgeries. If you're out of town and you haven't been paying attention to the count, it's up to three now.

And the first two were performed by the team physicians. And then this last one, he went outside the organization to Stedman, Colorado, I'm sorry, the Stedman Clinic in Colorado and had it performed. And so, you know, is he the same player today that he was a few years ago? He's not. And he feels that some things could have gone better with the surgery guys. There was some ligament damage in that first one that wasn't taking care of. And so when I wrote the story last week at the Athletic, just talking to some people close to the situation, they all said that he's upset about it to the point that he went to the blues

earlier this offseason and requested a trade. Now, what do you think the blues could get in return? I mean, what is his valuation currently at right now, given his age, his production, and of course the not-so-insignificant shoulder surgeries? Yeah, I think it's difficult, Haley, because Corey Priman and I have a story up today at the athletic about trade proposals.

And it was difficult. It really was because you're right. He's 29 years old. He's had the three shoulder surgeries. You know, he was 33 plus goals for five straight years, led the team in scoring. And when I watched him last year coming off these injuries, he's just not the same four goals and 24 games.

And so I think it's going to be difficult. Also, he has two more years at 7.5 AAV. And for a guy his age with his health history, you know, what team is going to take that on? in a flat cap, you know, environment. And so I think that you're talking about the blues potentially retaining some salary. I think you're talking about the blues, maybe not getting a player in return that they want. But the tricky part here, I think, for Doug Armstrong, is they still believe that their championship window is open. So it's not like you can trade

Vladi Tarasenko for a bag of pucks, a prospect and a pick, because you want to win now. And he's, he's a big part of that when he's healthy and playing well. So to me, it's going to be tricky. And I know Ian touched on the timeliness of this whole situation. You got the expansion draft protected list due at the end of this week and do the blues protect them. Do they try to get another forward onto that list and protect that person instead of Vladi Tarasenko?

Will Seattle take a crack at a guy like Tarasenko? So I don't know. So many questions and that's what makes this whole entire situation intriguing. And is there any way that this relationship between Teresanko and the blues can be repaired? or is this 100% heading to a trade? Yeah, I don't think so at this point, Haley. I think it's a situation where obviously the Blues have known about the trade request probably for more than a month.

And Doug Armstrong is, you know, gauging the market. And guys, it's to the point now where I don't think he can come back. We've seen it around the league in Buffalo with Jack Eichel, where there's been a disagreement about how the injury was handled and how it should be treated. And I believe in my reporting last week, you know, talking to people close to the situation, they feel that Vladimir Tarasenko is at a point where, you know, he can't trust the team. And primarily that's based on how the surgeries were handled and that it didn't get taken care of

and that his shoulder still remained an issue. And so when a player of his ilk is upset and then it becomes public like that, I just don't see how the Blues and Doug Armstrong can keep him on the roster. And, you know, you mentioned the fact that we're in a flat cap world, right? And listen, Seattle is probably working from a position of strength. They got a ton of flexibility. So, yeah, maybe it makes sense he goes there. Outside of the Cracken, Jeremy, what are some other teams that potentially this could work,

even if St. Louis has to eat a little bit of salary? Yeah, and we touch on that today in the article. People can check it out at the athletic. But we listed five teams. I believe that there's as many as 10 teams on Tarasenko's list. But I feel pretty strongly about the five we listed in the article today, Ian. And so you have the New York range. He's really good friends with Artemian.

Doesn't make a ton of sense for the Rangers because they have a lot of wingers. And, you know, Teresico plays his offside. So he's, he's left shot, but he's on that right wing, you know, for people who aren't familiar with that. And then the New York Islanders, I think he sees a fit there. Obviously, they've been on the cusp of getting to the Stanley Cup final the past couple of years. And if Teresenko can jump in and be kind of an instant offensive guy for the Islanders, that's a team. Vegas is another team that I believe he would have been. interest in going to. And then, you know, maybe these are outside looking in teams,

but Boston, however, you know, obviously they have Kretchi and, and Taylor Hall that they're trying to get done. They also have goalies that they need to sign. And then Philadelphia, Philadelphia is a team that took a step back last year, certainly, but they could use an instant offense shoot first type guy like Terracinko, too. So there are others. Thankfully, I think, for the blue sake, Teresenko's given them a number of teams. You know, we're not just talking four, or six that he'll approve a trade to. And I think that's going to at least give the blues more options. We saw it in your original story about the Tarasanko trade and obviously as well with some of your fan surveys. But it always seems like one of the questions with the blues is when and how can

they get one of the Kachuk brothers in St. Louis. Ian and I obviously both cover Matthew and Brady respectively. So I mean, what are your thoughts on, you know, all of this? Is it just fans being excited about a homegrown talent or is there actually some legitimacy to this in the future? Yeah. Is there any way you guys could work out those trades and send the brothers home to St. Louis? I'd have to deal with a lot less rumors and speculation with both Kachucks. You know, I've never lived anywhere else. So I don't know what it's like, you know, in Ottawa and Calgary. But St. Louis, it's it's so provincial in terms of, you know, they just love their own. And I think when you see Matthew and a Brady growing up at the rink alongside Keith

Chuck all these years and then you see them become stars with their respective teams. It's like, hey, you know, come play for the blues. And, you know, some people, some fans who don't understand restricted free agency and contracts and things like that, they think it's pretty easy just to make a deal like that, but we know it's not. So yeah, Haley, I feel like you, every time I check my phone, check email, check Twitter, it's something to do with Matthew Kachuk. I even had to, I got asked to go on St. Louis radio and they're like, hey, we just want to talk about the flames off season. and most of the interview was, how can we get Matthew? See, that's what I'm saying.

Back home. I was like, I don't know. I feel like I got to walk the line here. I don't want to upset people in Calgary. Yeah. And I don't see, you know, first of all, I don't see why Calgary would want to trade Matthew Kachuk. He's a phenomenal player.

And people talk about changing out the core in Calgary. And I get that he's now a part of the core, but he's not, you know, you can correct me if I'm wrong here. But, you know, one of those guys that's been around forever and hasn't gotten the job done. to me, he's part of the solution. And so, you know, if he doesn't like the landscape and then he's able to, you know, looking forward a year or two here, you know, force his way out, then maybe it's a situation where the flames will look to trade them. But I just, you know, every time I get that rumor, Haley, or get the speculation right now, I just say it doesn't make sense to me right now for

the blues and Calgary. The blues, they'd have to give up way too much at this point. So I just kind of table it and every time I do, it just pops up. somewhere else. You know, Jeremy, I think because you've been in St. Louis your whole life, you know the Kachuk family so well. Do you see at some point, whether it's in Calgary, Ottawa, St. Louis, or elsewhere? Do the Kachuk brothers end up teammates down the road? Is that, is that like a goal of theirs? I think it could be. I've never talked to them about that. But, you know, they grew up watching their dad. They grew up in the Blues locker room. When they come home, you know, they're just grinning ear to ear. I know a couple years ago, the All-Star game was here

in St. Louis and Matthew Cichuk was in the All-Star game. And, you know, they had a big picture of them on a banner inside the Enterprise Center and, you know, texted him the picture. And he was like, wow, that is cool. You know, so there's just this, you know, I think love for their hometown. And with Brady in that All-Star game, too, he was on vacation, you guys might remember and got the nod was like a last-minute ad to the All-Star and just left vacation to hurry up and get home and play. And And so in addition, they also have a tremendous bond that family. And so when you talk about is it a goal of them to want to play together, yeah, I do think that they would cherish that if that were possible.

I don't know that that's something that they're looking for earlier in their career. But I think that if, you know, all the stars align later in their career, I think they would try to make that work. Yeah. Jeremy, I just want to ask you as we've kind of touched on the fact that this is a big week in the National Hockey League expansion protection lists have to be submitted. by the 17th, which is Saturday. We'll get our hands on them on Sunday.

What are the big issues, like what are the conundrums that Doug Armstrong is facing right now in St. Louis? Yeah, so there's a couple. You know, and it's hard to predict this protected list, probably with every team in the league. But I think with regard to St. Louis, you have Jaden Schwartz who's unsigned. You know, you can't protect a guy or you wouldn't want to protect a guy who you don't have locked up. And so, you know, if he's still unsigned by the end of the week, then Seattle's going to get that 48-hour window to try to discuss a contract.

with Jane Schwartz, if they want to, if they want to, then you have the Teresenko situation, you know, hanging over your head. And, you know, if he's a guy who you don't think Seattle's going to take and you might be able to get something for him in a trade, maybe you expose them. Maybe you protect him. I think that's going to be a somewhat difficult call for Doug Armstrong. But if you look at who the blues could potentially lose, I keep pointing at Vince Dunn, the defenseman. He's still 24 years old, a great skater. I think he's got great offensive instinct. You know, when he plays 15, 16 minutes a game, you know, he can handle his own. And so I think that if Doug Armstrong does not move Vince Dunn by the time that they need to put that protected list in,

and he is exposed, I think he's a guy that Seattle would probably focus on. Well, hey, listen, Jeremy, this was fantastic. And again, we do encourage our readers to check out the joint piece it did with Corey Prondman, just looking at, you know, some potential trade partners for the St. Louis Blues with Vlad Tarasanko. Thanks for this. We look forward to all. of your blues coverage here the next couple of weeks because this is a busy cycle, but thanks for taking a few minutes with us here on the athletic hockey show. Yeah, good. Anytime, thanks you guys for having me. All right. Great to visit Haley there with Jeremy Rutherford, one of the, as we just said, one of the nicest guys you're going to meet in this industry.

And boy, it's going to be interesting to see kind of how this all plays out. And I love the fact you snuck in a Matthew Kachuck question to Jeremy Rutherford. That was a smart move. I think your Flames listeners will appreciate that. It's one of the, like I said to JR there, it's one of the most commonly talked about things right now, especially when it comes to St. Louis. Like I said, I did St. Louis radio, and I thought I was going to be talking about the Flames off season,

maybe a little bit about Matthew Kachuk, and it was basically all, how can we get Matthew here in St. Louis? What will it take? Will he come here and how? And so I felt a little bit bad for Flames fans there, So it's probably nice for them to hear Jeremy talking about, you know, why Matthews is a great piece of the puzzle in Calgary and why it probably doesn't make sense for both sides. It can probably maybe quiet things a little bit until the next round of rumors start here in Calgary.

Well, listen, speaking of Jeremy Rutherford, he's going to actually help launch us into multiple choice madness here to wrap up the show, Haley. That's because we're talking about potential big names that are in play and going to be traded. as I mentioned, Jeremy Rutherford reporting last week that Vlad Teresenko is in play in St. Louis. So here's question one for us to tackle in multiple choice badness, Haley. I want to know which of the following big names, star players, is going to be traded first this offseason. Is it A, Vlad Teresenko, B, Seth Jones, C, Jack Eichel, Oyd, D, Duncan Keith, Haley, Teresenko, Jones, Jones, Eichael Keith. they're all on the market, who gets moved first? I'm going to say Duncan Keith because just in reading our Daniel Nugent Bowman,

I saw a note in 31 thoughts. It seems like the Oilers and the Blackhawks have been talking about something for, you know, a decent amount of time now. So the fact that there's actually been trade talks, that information is out there. It's been reported. It's been sourced by. couple of people. I think that kind of puts that deal maybe ahead a little bit. I know Duncan Keith isn't on the level of someone like Seth Jones or Teresanko or certainly not Jack Eichael,

but I think with the information that's been out there about those three trades, it's been, well, here are some of the teams who could be in play. You know, with Jack Eichael, I think we've seen the flames, the Kings, Minnesota. There's been, you know, a handful of teams who it's been kind of narrowed down to in a lot of those cases, whereas Duncan Keith, we've seen a lot in the last couple days, couple weeks about, not a couple weeks, it's been the last couple of days about Duncan Keith and the Edmonton Oilers. You know, I tend to agree with you. I can see Keith, like, it seems to be that Ikel might be the most complicated one to get

done just because there's medical history there and there's a lot of term and dollars left on the deal. Like, I feel like Ikel is going to be complicated. But after that conversation with Jeremy Rutherford, I'm starting to wonder, Haley, if, and I guess technically, I mean, if Teresenko gets claimed by Seattle, I guess he's the first guy moved. But I'm starting to think after that conversation with Jeremy Rutherford,

do you not think that you could see a situation where St. Louis is like, you know what, just getting out from under the $15 million, we owe Teresenko, it's worth it. We'll expose him. And if you're Seattle, you're like, hey, two years for a perennial, you know, 30 goal score when he's healthy. Yeah, why wouldn't we take a gamble? So I kind of feel like I could see Vlad Tarasenko being exposed in the expansion draft in Seattle claiming him.

But do you want to lose a perennial 30 goal score for nothing to Seattle when you could potentially try to work out a trade? Although, like Jeremy said, you would probably have to retain some salary. Yeah, that's what I mean. Like, if you have to eat 50% of that salary, now you're on the hook for $7.5 million in the next two years. Like, wouldn't you rather have that money to go and pursue somebody else? else and then just let him go. Like that's, anyway, that was a really interesting conversation. So I'm starting to think that maybe Teresenko gets exposed.

All right. On the question number two, in multiple choice madness, we opened the show with the dues that Pierre McGuire's been hired by the auto-week senators. Haley, the next question is now that Pierre McGuire is off of television and into a front office, which current television broadcaster would actually be the best addition to an NHL front office. Is it, A, Ray Ferraro, B, Dave,

Poulin, C, Cassie Campbell, Pascall, D, Kevin Weeks, or E, I'll let you go off the board, Haley, somebody else. I'll go first on this one. I am a huge Ray Ferraro guy. I think I love the way Ray sees the game. I think Ray is a great communicator. I like the fact that he, you know, he's a 400 goal score in this league, but he also has witnessed a lot as a broadcaster.

He's well respected, but he's opinionated. And you know what? I would love to add that guy to my front office. I just think he brings a wealth of experience, credibility. He's one of the most well-respected people in the game, broadcaster or other way. So for me, I'm going Ray Ferraro. What about you? It's hard to disagree with that.

And I agree with you. I'm a big Ray Ferraro fan. And I think, you know, he does a great job. Like you said, he's very opinionated. you know, he'll use some of the analytical stuff, but he's not like a huge analytics guy, but he's also not bashing it. I think you can probably say he's one of those guys who probably looks at analytics to an extent, you know. Expected goals can only go so far. If a guy's not scoring, he's not scoring. You can only quote expected goals for so long.

So it's hard to disagree with Ray. I think in terms of like the best edition, I mean, I don't think you can really go wrong. I think, you know, Cassie Campbell-Paskel has, you know, a lot of experience in the women's game. I think she is incredibly intelligent. She understands the game of hockey. That's quite clear. I think Kevin Weeks is somebody that we've seen his name floated for front office positions in the past. I believe he's had interviews for general manager positions.

So maybe in terms of who is the next person. I could see it being somebody like Kevin Weeks because, you know, he obviously does a good job with the broadcast in the U.S. and he's been linked to some of these positions already in the last year or so. So this is a tough one for me because I really, it's hard to disagree with Ray, Ferraro, but I could see Kevin Weeks being in the conversation as he already has been before. Okay, final question. We'll do a hat trick of questions here in multiple joins. Mattis Haley. I know. I know our listeners know this about you, but you're a huge soccer fan. In fact, you are a passionate, passionate soccer fan. I know you were quite invested in that

Italy-England match on the weekend. And so it came down the penalty kicks, which is a normal thing for soccer fans, but not so normal for us who just like hockey. So here's my question, Haley. After watching that, it was nail-biting. It was, I'm sure, mentally exhausting for you as an Italian soccer fan. Well, I guess, wait, hold on the way. You, I know that you tweeted this out, but is actually, wait, is France your team here? Am I, what am I missing here? I don't you've got some Italian blood, but France is your team, right?

Sorry about that. No, don't apologize. It's actually a major source of contention with my family. I'm still in Ontario visiting my parents. And my dad is still mad at me for cheering for France over Italy because our family is Italian. My grandfather is from Italy. My grandmother is from Spain, but I was cheering for the French team. So my dad still is not forgiven me.

There's just a lot of players on France that I'm really big fan of from their club team, from watching them play for a number of years. But obviously, I am Italian. So seeing Italy in the Euro final was nerve-wracking was very exciting to watch. obviously I was disappointed that France got knocked out in the round of 16, especially after winning the World Cup in 2018. It was a huge disappointment. But yes, I am Italian, was rooting for the country in the Euro,

and it was great to see them win. Yeah, so this goes down to penalty kicks. And so here's my question. Final question, Mubloid Choice Man is, after seeing that thrilling Euro Cup, Italy, England, would you ever want to see the end? NHL decides Stanley Cup playoff games with shootouts. A yes, B, no.

What about you, Haley? No. No. I have, you know, I played basketball and soccer at, you know, pretty high levels growing up. And I've lost tournaments on penalty kicks. And it's the worst feeling in the world because you go to practice five days a week and you train. to play soccer. You play hockey.

You go to practice. You train to play hockey. You're not going to the rank or the field to shoot penalties. The majority of your time is spent on things that are actually related to the game that you're playing. So that's kind of my problem with ending something on a shootout or with penalty kicks. It's just not the way that, you know, I would much rather see. another round of extra time than PKs.

It's such a gut-runching way to watch a match too, and especially the way that that one ended with England and Italy, watching Saka miss that. He's 19 years old being put in that kind of position. It was really hard to watch. Obviously, being Italian, I was happy to see Italy win, but watching Saka's teammates surround him while he broke down on the pitch. it's really hard to watch and it's hard to celebrate.

You know, obviously you're happy, but it's hard to just stand there and cheer while you have a 19-year-old kid who feels like he just let his entire country down on, you know, one play off his foot. So I say no, throw them into the sun. I hate them. Yeah. And what's funny, though, is that when you go to the double IHF rules

and you watch international hockey, that's exactly how they do it, right? Like you think of T.J. O'Shee in the Olympics. you think of Jonathan Taves of the World Juniors. I am burned by the fact that you would have been, you'd have been too young for this, but like the Nagano Olympics in 1998, like Canada loses in a shootout. I'm still sour about that.

I'm like, this, it still sits with me. So I'm with you. I think it's one of those things. I understand the novelty and the shootout as a gimmick, as a way to end regular season games in a fast manner, but I don't want to ever see it. Come into the National Hockey League in the Stanley Cup. but we're going to have to live with it when we're watching the Olympics for the world juniors

because the double IHF rules, it rules the day there. Yeah, well, you know, I've had conversations with plenty of women's players who have lost in a shootout on the Olympic stage with Team Canada. And, you know, it's the most heart-wrenching moment of their careers. I mean, I wouldn't have been old enough to watch 98, but I did see the last Olympics where Canada lost in the final in a shootout to the, to the Americans. I mean, on one hand, it was such an incredible display of skill and talent. And on the one hand, it was great because I think it showed that women's hockey players, they've got hands. They can skate. They can, they can make these

plays. Melody Daou's shootout goal in 2018 was one of the best that I've ever seen. And obviously the Lamaroo twins were incredible. But, you know, Canada ended up losing on that. And I think, you know, losing a gold medal is difficult enough, but to lose it in that fashion, there's a lot of players who really struggled with that. And it's one of the worst moments of their career because it's not just that they lost, but it's the way that they did it. Yeah, no, exactly.

I'm with you. I don't like it. So we say put it, punt it into the sun, like you said. All right. Haley will have to leave it there. This is going to be a pretty fun week. week. Listen, I look forward to your coverage around the Calgary Flames leading up to the expansion draft and who they might protect and expose. And then, boy, right after that, we got the NHL draft on deck and then free agency.

This is going to be a busy week coming up for all of us. So looking forward to all your stuff here in the weekend. Thanks, Ian, you too. I'm sure it'll be interesting for the Sands as well. Yeah, there's something about this McGuire hiring that I've got to go and do something. So I better I better duck out of here. But hey, listen, a reminder that there were five days a week right now on the athletic hockey. show, the old TV USA edition with Custis and Jen Tilly. That's going to come your way Tuesday. And a little note, we pointed this out last week. We want to hammer this home again.

Myself and Down Goes Brown, we're going to be with you on Wednesdays for the rest of the month. So all of July, Ian Mendez, Sean McAdoo, with you on Wednesdays. We're going to punt Pierre LeBron and Scott Burnside to Thursdays this month. And on Fridays, it'll be Boltman and Proudman with that prospect series. So that is our jam-pack lineup for July. As always, thanks for listening to this edition of The Athletic Hockey Show. Follow us on your favorite podcast platform. Leave us a rating and review.

You know we appreciate that. Annual subscription to The Athletic. They're available for just $3.99 a month when you visit theathletic.com slash hockey show.