The Athletic Hockey Show - Patrice Bergeron retires, Rocky Wirtz complicated legacy and Dallas Stars perennial Stanley Cup favorite

Episode Date: July 26, 2023

This week on the roundtable, Rob Pizzo and Jesse Granger stick tap the career of future hall of famer Patrice Bergeron, they take the Athletic's off-season fan survey, discuss the Maple Leafs decision to LTIR Matt Murray and look back on the complicated tenure of blackhawks owner Rocky Wirtz who passed away unexpectedly on Tuesday. The guys welcome Saad Yousuf from Dallas to discuss the perennial Stanley Cup favorites in the Lone Star state, which saw the Stars improving this off-season with the addition of Matt Duchene to an already stacked team. Plus the guys comment on Sebastian Aho signing a max extension in Carolina, Ilya Samsonov's arbitration award, Vince Dunn's massive deal in Seattle and Dave Hakstol's extension with the Kraken.Save on a subscription to The Athletic: theathletic.com/hockeyshowSubscribe to The Athletic Hockey Show on YouTube: http://youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowStart building your credit up. Open a Chime Checking account with at least a $200 qualifying direct deposit to get started. Get started at chime.com/nhlshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show. What's going on, everybody? Welcome to the Athletic Hockey Show, the Wednesday Roundtable Edition. I am Rob Beasel from CBC Sports, and he's back. Jesse Granger, fresh off, tying the knot, fresh off a honeymoon, which, given what I saw on social media, it looked like at a good time,

but now he's ready to talk a little hockey. How was everything? Had a great time. A few margaritas, a few. lots of time in the water. I had an iguana on my head. It was great. It was a great week.

I already called him out, though, and I always tell people at the end of our shows to make sure to watch our YouTube channel. He doesn't have his wedding ring on because he's not used to wearing it. And I was saying off the air that I had the exact same thing when I put my wedding ring on. You feel like that's all you feel, especially for someone who doesn't wear jewelry. And slowly, you'll realize you take it off less and less. But right now, it's kind of driving you nuts, isn't it? Yeah, it is. And I've never worn any kind of jewelry. Like, I've never had a watch in my life. I've never had like a necklace, nothing. So it is very strange. I take it off to golf. I take it off to play hockey. I

take it off to do the dishes. I have got to get used to wearing this thing, but I will. Take it off to podcast for credit. Right. Yeah, yeah. I just, I don't feel comfortable talking to you and just being in my, in my, yeah, no, I don't know why I don't have it on right now. we'll have a Jesse Granger ring update every single week to see when you finally keep this thing on. But no Russo, he's still off enjoying this summer and doing his thing. So it's Jesse and me today. We're also going to be joined by Saad Yousef from the athletic talk.

A little bit of Dallas stars who obviously were very busy in the off season, despite a team that already was a contender. Boy, do they look good going in the next season. But we've got a few things we want to get to before we get to Saad, Jesse. big news of the week. You know, the last few shows we've been talking about free agents who haven't signed yet and where could they go. And one name was always on there, but we knew that he was either Boston or retirement. And we found out this week a day after his 38th birthday, Patrice Bergeron releases a very heartfelt statement saying that, yes, he is retiring and ended with this.

quote, as I step away today, I have no regrets. I have only gratitude that I live my dream and excitement for what is next for my family and I. I left everything out there and I'm humbled and honored. It was representing this incredible city and for the Boston Bruin fans, end quote. So when you saw it, when you saw the news, Patrice Bergeron retires, I'm not going to say, were you surprised because I don't think a lot of us were, but what really popped in your head?

You know, you know what surprised me a little bit was not so much. much the, like the, like, there were so many players and coaches and former players that all released like statements saying how awesome he was. And it wasn't so much that they thought that. It was the fact that they felt they needed to make that statement. And it just shows you how well respected he is around the NHL. And like, it's not just like, obviously his, his, his game, his hockey is spectacular. And, and I think he plays a brand of hockey that everyone appreciates, like even like, no matter what kind of player you are, what position you play, you're like, that guy does everything. He makes all of us look better. You appreciate that. But also just

the person that Patrice Bergeron is, everyone, like I said, I found us surprising how many different people felt the need to, like, make a statement and say how awesome he is and how fortunate they were to coach him. Bruce Cassidy here in Vegas put out a statement or play with him or whatever it was. Even like the Golden Knights TV broadcaster, Dave Gosher, who was the radio guy for the Bruins, like he put out a statement how how much of a pleasure it was to work with him. I just, like I said, I found it very telling of the person and the player of how many people wanted to, to comment on the retirement. Have you ever heard anyone say a negative thing about Patrice Berserre?

No. Never. No. He's, I mean, it's, you know, we talk a lot about, you know, the respected people in the game, but I was even looking on every article at some of the comments. And I loved reading things like, I'm a Habs fan, so I'm not allowed to like anything Boston Bruins, but Patrice Bergeron is awesome. He's got such an interesting career because, and I'm going to ask you a couple of questions here,

because I've always believed certain things, and I want to hear an agreement. But let me quickly just list off some of the accomplishments. We all know about the Selkechie trophy, six-time winner, two-time defending winner. This is a guy retiring, you know, at the top of his game as far as what he's. he is known for. 1,294 career regular season games. That's third in Bruins history behind Johnny Busek and Ray Bork. 1,040 points.

Again, third in Bruins history behind those two players. Stanley Cup, two gold medals, world championships, World Junior, World Cup. Just a winner and a leader, captain of this Bruins team for the last three years. Is he the most underrated player of this generation? Perhaps even all time. because I'll give my opinion, I think he 100% is. I agree with you.

And I think it's, it's, I don't know about all time, but of this, of like, since I've been watching hockey, I feel like he is. And it's, I mean, his, his career high for goals is only 32. And that's why if, if he'd scored 40 goals a season, he'd be, everyone would talk about him like, because of everything else he does. I just think fans and, and the media, we all glorify the stats. And he, his stats aren't elite. If you look at the underlying metrics and the goals against when he's on the ice, stuff like that, they are.

But I just think he didn't have the goals, the amount of goals and the amount of points. His career high for goals is 32. He never scored 80 points in his career. So I think that's probably why he's underrated, I guess. To me, you mentioned the six Selkees. I think more impressive than winning it six times is 14 years in a row. The last 14 years, he's been top five in Selke voting. And the last 12 years, he's been top three.

There have been one or two players or zero above him in Selke voting for 12 straight seasons. So when he announces his retirement, it's happy, hey, there's another trophy we can actually win day because there's actually going to be a vote for the Selke trophy next year. We're going to actually see who wins it as opposed to just awarding it to Patrice every year deservedly. I'm glad you brought up stats. And I'm glad you brought up the Selke.

And I wish Russo was here because he loves when I do some. digging and I did a little bit. Oh yes. Here we go. Only, he's one of only seven players ever to win the Selke and have over a thousand points in their career. Yes, he doesn't have those 40 and 50 goal seasons. Yes, he doesn't have the 100 point seasons. But he played 19 years and he was consistent. The other players with a thousand points and a Selke trophy, Bobby Clark, Hall of Famer, Doug Gilmore, Hall of Famer, Ron Francis Hall of Famer, Steve Eisenman, Hall of Famer, Rod Brindamor, probably a future Hall of Famer. We know that a lot of people think he should already be in.

And on Jake Kopitar. That's insane company to put yourself in. And I mean, you look at last year, 58 points and 78 games, part of the greatest regular season team that we've ever seen. I thought maybe he would come back for one more year. I'm not going to lie. I was kind of hoping he would.

Same. Because I just always, you know what I compare him to? You think Olympics. You think track and field. The marquee event is the 100 meter. You know, the winner of that event is the fastest man in the world. He's going to get all the accolades, is going to get all the endorsement money.

But the decathalie, the guy who does all 10 things well, that's Patrice Bergeron. He does everything. He plays 200 feet of hockey every single game. He shuts down players like Sidney Crosby. He does that well. And when he needs to, when you put him, you know, with the right line mates, he scores as well.

And I've heard all, you talk about all the comments. I've heard so many coaches come out and say, his greatest asset is, he is like a Swiss army knife. If you need him to score more and contribute more offensively, he can. If you need him to shut someone down, you can. He's quite honestly, the perfect hockey player. Yeah, I totally agree. And it's, that's a great metaphor, the, because he does everything well. And I think it's also why you see so many players coming out.

He makes everyone around him better, right? Like, I think, like, he's the player that everyone wants to play with because you know, like, okay, if I'm a, if I'm a 60 point guy, if I play on Patrice Bergeron's line, I'm an 80 point guy. Like, like David Posternock, great player. Brad Marchand, great players. But I really do believe Bergeron has, like, he elevated their games to another level. And like, like, anyone that plays on a line with that guy, you're going to be significantly better of a hockey player than you would without him.

He just does all the little things that no one notices, and you get the goals and you get the points, and he's just over there doing everything. Did you see the video when he was announced as captain of the ruins? They played the trick on him. So it's like in the dressing room and they said, we had a big team vote. And it was Marchand and Marchon comes and accepts it.

And he's like, all right. And he's like, we all know this isn't me. Burgi get up here. Because again, like he's just the type of leader that people follow. And I always say this, you know, you and I as guys who talk and cover this game and write about, of course, we can analyze a lot of things because we see it. We can analyze who's a good goaltender, who's a good defender, who's a good score because we're watching it. But I always love hearing people like us talk about who's a good leader. The only thing we have to really judge that is other people telling us.

Right. You know, you know, Mark Messier is a great leader. Well, Mark Messy is a great leader because people have told us Mark Messy's a great leader. We're not in the dressing room. We're not in there. And so many things that come with being a great leader are things that happen behind the scenes, not necessarily on the ice.

I've heard great leader five million times since this news broke. So I'm wondering who's going to be the next captain of the Bruins because even though he was only captain for three years, you've got big skates to fill. I was going to say shoes, but it's hockey, big skates to fill. Yeah. Yeah. It's and looking forward for the brew. Like, we kind of all expect, like, you're going to have a drop off after the greatest season ever, right?

Yeah. How big is the drop off going to be without this guy on the team? Like, we've sung his praises for 10 minutes now. Like, what's going to happen to the best regular season team in NHL history? Like, they also had some performances from guys that were like other world Venus Olmark. Like, that came out of nowhere. He's the best goal in the entire league. Like, I wonder moving forward for them how, like, what the Bruins are going to look like.

this year. Anyway, I know it's, I know we've been pretty much sitting here, you know, putting him on a pedestal. I think he deserves it. Patrice Bershron, congratulations on a great career. Like I said, for me in this generation, underrated is not even a good enough word. If there's an all-time underrated, you know, Mount Rushmore, he's on there. Congratulations on a great career.

Got a couple other things we want to get to. And this is something I saw on the athletic. And it's summertime, Jesse. So this is the perfect time to bring up things like this. There was the fan survey. And, you know, they're obviously going to compile all the answers and give us some results later on. But I thought, hey, Jesse and I are fans, right? Yes, you're a writer.

I'm a broadcaster, but we're fans. That's how we became what we are because we love hockey. So I thought this would be a good time for us to go through this. Give your answers. And if you want to give a little bit of an explanation, by all means, It's our show. We can do whatever the hell we want. You ready for this?

Yep. I'll let you go first. Question number one. Who is the best player in the NHL besides Connor McDavid? So the options are Nathan McKinnon, Leon Drysidal, Austin Matthews, Kahl McCarr, Matthew Kachuk. There's a skip option and there's an other option. I'm taking away the skip. We can't skip.

If you want to put someone else in, go ahead. Who's the best player in the NHL besides Connor McDavid? Andre Vassel. You bastard picking a goalie all the time. If I had to pick one of those options, I'd take Kail McCar. I think Kail McCar is the second best player, but, you know me. I think Andre Vasselowski is. If I were starting an NHL team and I couldn't take Connor McDavid, I'd take Andre

Vasselovsky. I'm going to go with, and I really was torn because as much as you like goaltenders, I like guys who put the puck in the net and create offense. But I was torn between Leon Driesidal and Nathan McKinnon. but when I watch Nathan McKinnon play, he just pops so much to me. Like he just explodes on the screen. He's got speed.

He's got amazing ability with the puck. He's, and especially in the playoffs, he just takes it to a new level every single year. Win or lose, whether they win the cup or not, he's just so incredible. I would love to be able to feel like

what it's like to play like Nathan McKinnon for like 30 seconds, just to feel what that is like. So I'm going with Nathan McKinnon. Question number two. Should the NHL add a play-in round to the playoffs like the NBA? I'm going to go old traditional fart here and say no. I think it would be fun, but I just like the Stanley Cup playoffs how they are, leave them alone. I think 16 teams is plenty.

I think I'm with you on this one. I know that now you suddenly have more money. If my paycheck depended on whether or not there's a plan, maybe my answer is a little bit different. but I think you've got a lot of teams. I think the playoffs are a grind. And I also, I'm not a huge fan. We saw this during the COVID playoffs of shitty teams getting it. Yes.

I think the playoffs should be the 16 best teams in the NHL. Now, speaking of playoffs, question number three, do you prefer the current divisional and wildcard playoff format or the old conference-based format one versus eight? We've talked about this a lot, so I think I know you're an. Yeah, we all want it. Talking to the players, it seems like they all want it. That vote's going to be a landslide for the old one versus eight format. Question four, Matthew Kachuk, Jack Eichel, Alex DeBrinke, Pierre-Dubois recently orchestrated moves to prefer destinations despite not having

UFA status. Are you a fan of star players having more power about where they want to play? Three options here. Yes. No. Or number three, only if the player has spent a long time on a a directionless losing team. I think they should. I'm glad they do. And I think it's good for the players, obviously, to have more control. But I think it's good for fans. And if you're a fan of a team that one of these players recently left and maybe isn't

the most fun market to play in, you're probably not a favor of this. But I think in general, people who like hockey just want to watch the NHL as a whole, I think this makes the league more fun when there's player movement. when like hockey players notoriously like what's who who had the line like they don't want to move their shit um they all just sign with their same team because they just don't feel like moving it makes the league a little more boring you watch the NBA and like guys are moving all over the place every year the teams are like totally shuffled it it makes the league more fun so just from an overall entertainment NHL as a whole perspective i like more big star player movement i do and i don't

I find myself on the fence. This is maybe the only question I really found myself on the fence because there are times where I think players have earned it and it kind of borders on what answer number three is there where some guy's been on a team that hasn't been able to do a thing for many years. And, you know, Jack Eichol is kind of an example of that, you know, where you kind of feel for the guy like let him go somewhere where he can win, which he went somewhere and he did. But I'm with you, like as someone who covers the game and someone who loves the game. I like seeing movement.

I like seeing, you know, teams. going out and it's so much harder now with the cap to do it, but teams going out and getting the players they need and players playing better when they go there. All right, the next question. If you could grab dinner or drinks with a current NHL player, not on your favorite team. So I'm going to put Vegas for you because it's not necessarily your favorite team, but it's the team you cover. Not on your favorite team. Who would it be? Alex Ovechkin, Matthew Kachuk, Sidney Crosby, Brad Marchand, Mark Andre Fleury, or other. So, Mark Andre Fleury is the easy answer for me.

I got to know him really well here in Vegas. You know who's like someone who's like totally off the wall that's not on here, but is awesome is John Merrill. He's like a seventh defenseman in the NHL. But John Merrill seems like the coolest guy ever. I want to have a beer with John Merrill. But of these choices, I don't think you can go wrong. OVie would be awesome.

Sidney Crosby, I don't think he'd be as fun as OVie, but it would be fascinating to pick his brain. Brad Marshand, you're probably getting in a bar fight. So that's interesting. But yeah, Flurry would be fun. I don't know. They're all good options. Who would you choose?

I'm more interested in who you would choose. Mark Andre Flurry is the only answer to this question, Jesse. Stop trying to talk your way around anything. If anyone thinks anything but Flurry, you got to know him. I mean, I've been in scrums with him. I don't know him personally. But given everything I've seen from every interview and anyone who's ever talked about Mark Andre Fleary, he seems like the funnest guy.

Yes. To go get a drink with. Correct. That's the only answer to this question. All right. Next question. Choose one NHL city, besides your favorite teams. You would most like to visit for a weekend trip and a game.

Vegas, Montreal, New York City, Nashville, or other. That's an excellent list because those are like, that's my list of cities I like to visit. We just did the draft in Nashville and had a lot of fun. New York City is always one of the best trips of the year. If I had to pick one, I'd say Nashville. If we're going off the board, one that's not on that list that I love that I think is super underrated. It's the Patrice Bergeron of cities to visit. Vancouver.

I absolutely love the city of Vancouver. It's awesome. So, yeah, all good answers, though. I'm with you on Nashville. Never been. And I like cities in North America that make you feel like you're just on a completely different continent. Like it just seems like it doesn't, you know, fit. but in a good way.

Honorable mention to Vegas, even though I've been to Vegas many, many times, people might be surprised to know you and I have never actually met each other three-dimensionally, and I'd love to have a beer with you, Jesse. So I'm going to put Vegas as an honorable mention. All right, that's get some nitty-gritty ones. Pick one 2023 Eastern Conference playoff team

that you're most confident will miss the postseason this year. So you've got Florida, the Islanders, Tampa Bay, Rangers, Leifes, Devils, Hurricanes, Bruins, and there's a ninth option, they will all make it again. Yeah. So most confident makes it sound like you're like very confident, but I'm not confident at all. And like the confidence level is low. But of all the low confidence levels, I would say the one I most probably the Rangers. They're a young team.

They've got a new coach coming in. Like I'm very uncertain on what the Rangers are going to be. that would be my pick. Yeah, for me, it's the Islanders. And again, I agree with you with the most confident part. Like I read the question. I'm like, oh, I don't like to turn most confident. Yeah.

Um, the Islanders, I never have faith in the Islanders and I don't know why. Like I just don't see this as a team that, that even if they, when they do squeak in, I just don't ever have them as a team that I can put the word confident. So I'm putting them as confident that they're going to miss the playoffs. Now I need you to pick one Eastern Conference team on the ride. that you're most confident will break out and make the playoffs this season. Ottawa, Buffalo, Detroit, Columbus, or none of them will make it because the East is too competitive. I think Buffalo is probably going to be the runaway answer here.

That's my answer as well. Yep. Yeah, they added to their blue line. I like Eric Johnson and Connor Clifton. They came close last year. I'm with you on Buffalo. All right, pick one Western Conference team. Your most confident will miss the playoffs this year.

Winnipeg, Seattle, Minnesota, LA, Dallas, Colorado, Edmonton, Vegas, or number nine, they will all make it again. I mean, Winnipeg, again, this is the runaway answer. I feel like Winnipeg is trying to trade. They're trying to trade away every good player they have on the roster. So if they're successful in trading all these good players away, they're going to miss. Even if they don't, just the dysfunction around the fact that they were trying to trade them all away, I am, I'm pretty with on the confidence meter, this one is much higher. I don't think Winnipeg's making the playoffs this year. by notes, I knew we were going to do this.

So I highlight Winnipeg and I put, they are a mess. That's my, that's my analysis. They're just a mess. They just squeaked in last year. Yeah. And they're trying to get rid of everyone,

including one of the best goalies in the league. It's, it's the Winnipeg Jets runaway. Which non-playoff team from the West will break out and make the playoffs this year. Calgary, Vancouver, St. Louis. None or other,

of course. I'm going to swap one. Canadian team for another. Calgary. I like them. I think they have all the makings of a team that bounces back. They underperformed last year. Their metrics were better. Their metrics said they should have won more games than they did. And part of that was the goaltending was awful. I have confidence in Jacob Markstrom to bounce back. I think he's a good goalie that just had a bad year. So I'll go Calgary. I think they're going to be good this year. I got Nashville. I mean, the moves they made, I know a lot of people are wondering about the direction of this team. Are they playing for now? Are they

playing for the future? Are they rebuilding or that? I just like the grittiness they added to that team. I've always been a big Ryan O'Reilly fan, Luke Shen, Gustav Reikwis. I think they're going to be a bitch to play and I can see them squeaking in. I'd like this next question. Conor Bardard, so we're looking at the future here. Connor Bedard is 24 years old in his prime. He's playing at the following level. One, battling with a 32-year-old Connor McDavid for the MVP. two, a top three player in the league, think Nathan McKinnon. Next, top 10 player in the league, think Kirill Caprisoff. A top 30 player in the league, think Sebastian Ajo.

An all-star level, but not a true franchise talent, think Matthew Barzell, or not an all-star or better level. I'm going to go top 10, Kiril Kaprisov. To me, that feels about like what he's going to be. I think anything above that, you're asking a lot. I think there's a chance, but I don't think it's likely. I don't think it's likely he's a top three player in the NHL. But I do think he's like top 10, Carol Caprisov. That sounds right to me.

This is the first time we're disagreeing. I'm going to go top three. Wow. Yeah, I think I think this kid is the real deal. I just, and I know his size is an issue. I know whether he's going to play center of the wing is going to be still an issue. But I just think the NHL is much more tailor-made for someone like him now than has been in the past top three.

All right, which of these playoff teams will be a basement dweller, top, bottom 10 in the standings in the upcoming season? So you got Florida Islanders, pretty much any of the teams, any of the teams that made the playoffs, who's going to finish top, bottom 10? But it's by the 2025, 26 season. So we got a few. Oh, excuse me. I misread that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, excuse me. So Jets is the easy answer, like we just said, they're a mess. they could be a basement dweller by the end of this year if they trade everyone away. But if we want to go away from that, the team that kind of concerns me in terms of the age of their core are the kings. You look at Copatar, Dowdy, a lot of these guys are not super young. I could see the kings. I think their window is short.

And by the way, I'll throw the Golden Knights in there. I don't think they're going to be basement dwellers in a couple years, but the Golden Knights window will close eventually. They've traded all their young assets for stars, and it paid off. You want a cup. you did it. But I could see them maybe struggling in a few years, but Kings, to me, they've got an old core.

Winnipeg, Winnipeg, Winnipeg. I'm going to shit all over Winnipeg this entire episode. I just don't. I mean, even they're moving everybody, but I don't believe they're moving people to turn this thing around quickly. I mean, we're going to see some lean times in Winnipeg. Pick one NHL team you're the most confident. We'll win a Stanley Cup at any point between now,

and the year 2030. Colorado Avalanche. I think they had an off year with some injuries, but McKinnon and McCar and that core is very young. I think they're just starting their window. I think they're going to win at least one more. Carolina Hurricanes to me. I mean, I think they're a contender now.

I think they're going to be a contender for a bit. They frustrate the hell out of teams. You've talked about this all the time. They just don't let anything get through, and that's going to win hockey games, and they just go on the right streak at the right time doing that with a really good coach. They win the Stanley Cup.

All right, two more questions left. Pick three NHL teams that look the most hopeless in terms of becoming a cup contender at any point between now and 2030. Three teams. I mean, so the coyotes are the easy pick. They have just, will they even have an arena for 2030? Who knows? The sharks probably and the ducks would be my other two picks just because I feel like the ducks have young. players and there's like so much young talent on that team, but they just don't, it feels like those

young players, like last year they were supposed to take a little bit of a step and they didn't. I don't know. I just something is wrong there. I feel like there's just something is not fitting. Maybe it will with, with the new guys they got in, but I don't know. So ducks, sharks, coyotes would be my pick. I got coyotes. I got the blue jackets.

And I have the Vancouver Canucks because even when the Vancouver Canucks are good, they're not going to weigh a Stanley Cup. They're just not. We've seen it before. You should have picked the Maple Leafs. Yeah, that's even better. But I mean, at least they're like, you know, a team with elite talent that should be winning Stanley Cups.

But when Vancouver's good, they don't win. When Vancouver's bad, they don't win. They're just snake-bitten. Good pick. And finally, last question. Which city deserves the next NHL team either via relocation or expansion? Here are your choices. Houston, Quebec City, Atlanta.

Salt Lake City, a second team in Toronto or other. I'm fascinated to see the results of this, what the fans vote, just because we've heard rumors about pretty much all of these. For me, my vote's Quebec City. Quebec loves hockey. That city would sell out every single night. Like, if they gave them a team tomorrow, the season tickets would there be a waiting list the next day.

So I'm going to Quebec City. I got Quebec City as well. I'm old enough to remember what it was like when Montreal and Quebec had their rivalry. I'm not a big fan of manufactured rivalries, the way they kind of try to do now with divisional playoffs. I like geographical rivalries. I like the Calgary fans just are born hating Edmonton fans. I like that sort of provincial or in-state rivalries. That's what I want to see.

I want to see that rivalry back because they would just absolutely hate each other. If you want to fill in this survey, be sure to head to the athletic because I'm curious. I want as many people as possible to fill this thing out because I'm curious on a lot of these answers. Really quickly before we get to our other story here involving the Blackhawks, I'm seeing our producer, Jeff Dometz, letting us know that Matt Murray is going to be starting the season on the L-T-I-R next year. Your thoughts on this one, Jesse? Yeah, rough go for him. Can't stay healthy. It's relatively good news for the Toronto Maple Leaf's salary cap situation, though.

Exactly. Yeah. I mean, how many times can we say if Matt Murray stays healthy, he's a good goal to. If Matt Murray, no matter what happens, this guy is just unfortunately made of class. Last one before we get to our break. Some sad news in the NHL. Rocky Wirtz passed away, the man who, you know, was the owner of the Chicago Block when they won their three Stanley Cups.

But of course, his legacy is always going to have something attached to it. He was presiding over the team when they had one of their biggest scandals, the Kyle Beach sexual assault scandal. His family has owned this team for a long time. He was two years old when his grandfather bought this hockey team. But it's unfortunate, Jesse, when I think Rocky Wirtz, when I saw this news that Rocky Words passed away, I just flashed back to that town hall meeting where he yelled at Mark Lazarus for for even asking what's the future of this team in regards

to not letting this Kyle Beach sort of thing happen again. What were you thinking when you saw this news? Yeah, same thing. And I think that's most people when they saw the news. So that's, I mean, it is what it is. That's going to be, it's the most recent thing that happened with. with his legacy and it's the thing that probably is going to come to mind for most people. For me, looking forward, it's going to be interesting to see what happens to the team.

I'm a fan of the Denver Broncos. They had an owner for a very long time, Pat Bowlin. He passed away. His kids took over and it was an absolute train wreck until they eventually sold the team. It's not always the smoothest when you're just passing it down to the next generation or whether it's sold. So to me, owner is the most important piece in a franchise. It's going to be interesting to see what happens to the black

It's interesting, though, because we've seen exactly what you said, but sometimes I wonder if Dad was getting in the way. Yeah. I mean, I rewatch that press conference, or excuse me, town hall. It wasn't a press conference. I got to be very clear about that because that's what town hall is supposed to be. And his son tried interjecting to say, let me say what the team is doing. Right.

And what did Rocky do? No, no, no. It's none of his business. So sometimes I feel as if it's a horrible thing to say, and I don't want to make it sound like anyone should be happy, anybody died. But when that element's no longer there, maybe the newer generation can go the right way.

I'm not trying to pretend to know the finer workings of the offices of the Chicago Lacox, but that could be a possibility as well. All right, we're going to take a quick break afterwards. Saude Youssef from The Athletic talking a little Dallas stars. Okay, given the fact that the, Dahl stars were two wins away from the Stanley Cup final last year, but arguably got better.

Our next guest has been very, very busy. Saad Yousaf joining us again on the athletic hockey show. How are you, man? I'm doing great. How are you guys doing? We're doing good. We went long in our last segment, and Saad jumped on and was listening to our survey discussion. Any of those questions really kind of jump out to you?

I know you were talking about the one who's going to win a Stanley Cup between now and 2030. Have you filled out the survey yet? And do you have any ones that really jumped out to you? Well, I thought all the questions are really good. And it's a fun exercise, you know, for some of them, the answers are a little easier. But other, especially the ones with the three teams, I think those are, those are a little easier because you have more leeway. But the question about which team can win a Stanley Cup between now and 2030, I think, I think it's an interesting question because, you know, you could go. with a team that looks really good right now. And if they, if their window closes next year,

but if they look good really right, really good right now, they fit that answer as well. Or you can look at a team that's fit for sustained success and, you know, have a path forward, youth coming up, all that kind of stuff. And they might be good in 2027. I think the stars kind of check both boxes. I think the stars could win the championship next year in 2024. And I feel they could win a championship in 2027. So that was a question that kind of got my wheels turning in my head a little bit. So you broke the rules already, Jesse. We said, can't be the team. You cover or the team that's your favorite team, but we want to get sought on a lot. So we don't want to slav them just yet. Let's transition over to the stars. And we'll start with the most recent and least

surprising news, at least to me, Jim Nill signing to your extension with the team. We're obviously going to talk about the stars this offseason. and what they're looking like. But you've covered this team for a while. Jim Nell, just, he became the Stars GM in 2013. So we've had a long time to analyze him as a general manager in this league. When you think of his tenure, look at his last 10 years. What do you think of when you see Jim Nell?

I think very black and white, hot and cold. The first, I mean, you look up until 2016, every draft pick was not every, I'm being hyperbolic, but a lot of draft picks were, were big misses. 2016 first round pick, Riley Tufti, is going to be fighting for a fourth line spot in Colorado.

Dennis Guriano, their 2015 first round pick was shipped off at the trade deadline for peanuts, well, for Evgeny Dadanov, which worked out well. But he was shipped off.

I mean, it just was not a good run. And then, you know, of course you had Rope Hans, the second round pick in 2015. That was nice. But since 2017,

you look at what this team, was done in the draft from Robertson, Hayskin, and Ottinger, Wyatt Johnston, Logan Stankovin coming up, Thomas Harley, they've hit like crazy. And then also in free agency, you look at Joe Pavelsky coming on. Now Matt Duchesne came on this year. So Corey Perry, you know, was a great depth piece for them so to the Stanley Cup final. So I think there's a lot of, there's, I don't want to say recency bias, but Jim Nill has evolved his talents in recent times. And I think that's a big reason why he's been able to salvage his time here in Dallas. You touched on the Duchenne acquisition, and I felt like that was one of the bigger ones this off season, a team that, like, obviously,

I covered the Golden Knights against the Stars in the conference final. And what stood out to me about that team is just they've got so many guys that can score on this team. You hear about depth, and sometimes depth is like guys that are good in other areas but not maybe aren't scorers like the stars have guys that can score in the bottom six and now you add another score to that like what what excites you the most about duchin with this team and and then how good of a fit do you think that is i think it's a great fit because because the biggest thing that they were missing last last year in the top nine was that ninth forward they had robertson he had ben johnston and then dad andov especially when he came on late uh and domi was

a good addition. But when Domi came on, Tyler Sagan got hurt, Marchman got hurt, Marchman didn't live up. And in the playoffs, Bavilski got hurt. They never had that complete top nine. And now they have a, they have like a top 11 top nine, because you add Duchenne in, and then Logan Stankovin is still coming up from the juniors and Maverick, or from the HL. But to, you know, go specifically about your question with Duchin, the versatility is what really excites me about him. He can play sense. He can play winger. He can be a factor with multiple pairings.

I think you'll be great with Sagan. But I think you can switch him around in different places. And I think Pete DeBoer will explore that. So his versatility is going to be huge. I think the way that he allows for the younger players to truly develop and not rush them in, look, Wyatt Johnston was great last year. But that's not the rule. He's the exception.

So you don't want to thrust Logan Stankovin into a situation that he's not comfortable for yet. and Matt Dushain enables that. And by the way, not just Matt Dushan is the talent. Matt Dushan's contract enables that because it's a one-year deal for $3 million. It's the perfect bridge type contract or whatever you want to call it to really ease in the next talent as well. I was about to ask you that. Was anyone else thinking they read it wrong when you saw that signing? And I know he's being paid by two teams because he got bought out.

But I remember saying, Matt Dush, for $3 million bucks? I mean, that's the definition of a bargain. Oh yeah. I mean, it was it was not terribly surprising because of like you said, the buyout, I think does play a role. But also, Dushain, you know, Dallas has a lot of the things that free agents look for. Dallas has a winning situation. And we just talked about Jim Nill. He sets the culture here. And Jim Nill, universally known in hockey as one of the nicest men in the sport. So they have a good culture there. They have veterans. They have youth. And then also for Duchenne coming from Nashville, it's a, as he called Dallas, a sister city.

Similar vibes, southern hockey. You know, he's an Ontario guy, so he knows what that heavy Toronto pressure and all that looks like. And that doesn't exist in Nashville. It doesn't really exist in Dallas either. So, you know, in Dallas, you get to make your millions, play the game you love, and go out to dinner with your wife on a Friday night. it's the perfect situation for a lot of these players. I was reading your offseason, your offseason analysis of this team,

and you gave them an A, and I love the one line where you said, arguably every move the stars made, they came out on top. And I set it off the top of this interview. This is a team that was two wins away from the Stanley Cup final. How much better are they?

Or maybe I'll just ask, are they better and how much better are they? Yeah, I think all the moves they made, all the moves that they made were a plus. So you add Duchenne instead of Domey, you upgraded. I think you add, you know, the depth force they did on the fourth line while losing Kivirontent, Glenn Denning, you upgraded with those guys as well. And so they upgraded those. I think the only move that they didn't upgrade on because they didn't make was really anything with their defense.

And as Jesse knows very well, that's what ended up costing them the series in the Western Conference finals because Vegas has the, has the deep, deepest defensive core in the league and Dallas was outmatched greatly. So I would say that is probably an area of concern. So how much better? I think they're a lot better up front. But, you know, I don't think they had a whole lot to get better up front, if that makes sense. So if they were a nine out of ten, there may be a nine and a half out of ten up front.

I think personnel-wise, they're probably still the same defensively. What they're hoping for is a bunch of internal upgrades. Thomas Harley takes the next step. Niels Lundquist emerges, and Ryan Suter at least remains playable, to some extent. So I think that's what they're really looking for at this point because they didn't add anybody externally there. Saad, you mentioned off the top that this team is built to win now, but they also could win in 2027. And that's rare for most of the contending teams, especially in this flat cap world where everyone's just like going all in and they're all crunched against the cap. For people that aren't following the stars every day that don't know their prospect pool,

like what gives you reason for optimism that far down the road for this team? Like what young guys do they have coming that maybe we haven't seen yet? Yeah, three big guys. Maverick Bork, Logan Stankover, the two forwards. And, you know, last year before Wyatt Johnson's rookie year, just to put in perspective, the stars had the top scorer in all three junior leagues. and it was Logan Stankovin in the WHL, it was Yide Johnson, the OHL,

and it was Maverick Fork in the Q. So they had the top score in all leagues. Then Logan Stankovin, if it wasn't for Connor Bedard, was arguably the best, you know, junior hockey player this past year, one of the best, again, after Bedard. And then Wyde Johnson had the rookie year that he did and was, you know, a Calder candidate.

So that's their forward up front. and we get used to Miro Hayskinin, I think, is entering his fifth or sixth year. He's 23 years old. I'm sorry, he just turned 24 last week. Jason Robertson just turned 24 yesterday. Jake O'Donner is still 24 years old. Leon Bichsel, their, their 2022 first round pick, he's the perfect pairing for Miro Haskinen.

He's still, he just turned 18 years old, or 19 years old, I think, 18 or 19, a couple of couple of months ago. So, you know, you get caught up with the Jamie Ben, Tyler Sagan, Joe Pavelski class of players. And yes, those guys are great and they're critical. But this team is flooded with young talent. That's not just young talent that you think might work out. It's young talent, like I said, with Heskinen and Robertson and Ottinger that are, and the old man of this crew is Rope Hince and he's 27 years old. So that's, that's the core you're looking at. And that's why, you know, this definitely extends down to 2027. So, I've often said that I feel that hockey at times now could be a little bit too

overcoached. I think we're constantly looking to make changes. I think if a line doesn't score for two games, it's, let's move them apart. Let's change this. Let's change that. But I look at Robertson Hinson-Hinson-Povalski. When they're together, this line is just, it's almost laughable at times. I always bring up to Jesse, one of the things I love to put a couple dollars on every

now and again is players to score goals in certain games. I pretty much put Roberts into score a goal every single game because I think in the end I'm going to end up up money. How good is this line? I mean, you get to watch them day and a day. You get to watch some practice. Just put them together, leave them alone. I don't care what happens. Don't touch this line. Yeah, absolutely. And they're as advertised. And it's not just, you know, it's not hype there. They're arguably the best line in hockey in the world right now. And they've been one of the best lines for the last two, three years. years. We had the Calgary line when when Godrow and Kachuk were there as well. And then you had, you, you, you've had some really good lines in Boston and stuff. So I'm not saying there are some like,

you know, runaway just, you know, the best, but they're one of the best lines in hockey. And a big reason why is because they are individually really good, but they are the, they are, they are best together. And, you know, there are certain times, like we saw Joe Pavelski score four goals when he was not on that line when he came back in the second round. So they have talent and they can do it. But Jason Robertson is a young goal scorer who has the instincts. Joe Pavelski is an older, very smart guy who knows exactly where to be and how to play with pretty much anyone. And, you know, it's always hard, you know, to figure out where to assign credit, you know, when a system is, when something is as well-oiled as that machine is. But, man,

I really think it's Rope Hintz all the time. Like, I think Rope Hintz, Rope Hince is the catalyst for the all the success. He allows for everything to happen because he's so good that Robertson and Pavelsky can do whatever they want offensively and not have to worry about it because, you know, now that Patrice Burgaron is gone, I think Rope Hince is going to be in the Selky conversation, you know, for years to come.

And so I think he's the engine. He's, to me, I've always said, I love Miro Hayskinnan. I love, you know, Yide Johnson. All these guys are great. Rope Hins is the most fun player to watch on this team for what he does on both ends of the ice. So, yeah, the entire line is really good. But I think individually, they all make each other better. And then, you know, and then I think Rope Hans drives the whole thing. I was reading your piece when they signed Matt D'Shain and you mentioned, you kind of touched on it earlier, like how Dallas has all the pieces. Like, can you expand on that? What makes Dallas such a destination? I think it's probably a lot of the same answers.

I cover a team here in Vegas that gets a lot of free agents and a lot of guys want to sign here. Just what has made that city such a perfect fit for NHL players? Yeah, I think, I think, you know, in addition to some of the things I hit on before, I mean, there's little things like, you know, like the tax situation in Texas, which that always helps as well. And so that's a good plus. I think at the end, though, it's a lot of really good mixes. I think for different players, they have different, different agendas, different things that they're

looking for. But the thing with Dallas is, you'll find whatever you're looking for. So if you're looking for a good veteran, Hall of Fame type players, you know, to play with, you'll find that. If you're looking for young talent and you don't want to be stuck in a black hole in a couple years, then you'll find that as well. And like I said, I think the living situation is really underrated because hockey actually is picking up in Dallas quite a bit. They have a lot of good youth hockey. I mean, you know, the Dallas assistant GM and Ryan Suter and Joe Povalski, their kids all play on the same youth hockey team. Like, they have a really good, you know, hockey environment here, but the Dallas Cowboys are still here. Luke Adonch is just still here.

And so like I said, I think it's a big plus. Like, I think when you're younger, you want to have a lot of that celebrity, people asking you for autographs, things like that. But as you get older, you just want to fly under the radar, play hockey, make your millions and win a Stanley Cup. And Dallas and Florida, like, and Vegas, like, these are the situations where you can kind of, where you can kind of just get lost in the shuffle a little bit because, you know, you may not have the Cowboys in Vegas, but you have something else. Like, well, it means it's Vegas.

And so I think, I think for me, it's one of those things. where it's the perfect, you know, it's the perfect environment on the ice, off the ice. And I think that the other thing, like I said, is Jim Nill has done a really good job of fostering a great environment. And they've always had really good coaches in terms of guys that, you know, not the Mike Babcocks, Mike Babcocks of the world. Like, you know, Jim Montgomery, Lindy Ruff was fun to play for. Ken Hitchcock was here for a year. Jim Montgomery has been good. Rick Bonas, whatever you think about is coaching, one of the nicest men in hockey and now Pete DeBore has been extremely likable and all the players love him. So I think all that stuff contributes to why Dallas is a destination.

It's so underrated. It really, everything you just said is so underrated that I don't think the general fan understands what it's like. You said something earlier in this interview. He can go out to dinner with his wife. I'm in the Toronto area. Austin Matthews can't just show up at a random restaurant. and expect to be left alone. It's not happening.

And yes, these guys are very handsomely compensated. I get it. They make millions of dollars. But quality of life, I firmly believe, translates to better hockey playing. And Dallas is the, and weather, too, the one thing you didn't, you didn't mention weather, they're not freezing their asses off in, you know, Calgary or Toronto or Montreal. You know, they're, they got nice weather, too. So I think those are so underrated.

And yeah, and, you know, I know Jesse can appreciate this as well. You can play golf in December. Like in Dallas, like you can go first week of December on a nice 70 degree day and play golf. And a lot of these guys, I mean, you look at Tyler Sagan right now. He's in Toronto working out. So in the summer, you can escape and go back home, go to Toronto, go to Vancouver, go wherever you come from, and do your thing in the offseason. And then you get to come during.

hockey season and on your off day, go play golf on Christmas Day. So I think I think you're right. All those things are really, really great. And I think hockey players like all that. Play golf on Christmas Day, something I have never done in my 43 years of life. Saad, always a pleasure having you. I mean, thanks so much. Yeah, go play golf on Christmas Day. Appreciate y'all having me. Saad You, Seth, go read his stuff on The Athletic, read all about the down. Dallas stars. We got rapid fire coming up after the break, so don't go anywhere. My favorite time of the show and yours, Rapid Fire, Jesse, it's offseason. So we got a lot of

signs to talk about. Get your opinions on these. This one just coming down today, Sebastian Ajo has signed an extension. Eight years, $78 million. I'll save you from getting the calculator. That is 9.75 as far as a cap hit goes. That's a lot of money, but he's worth it. I mean, he's one of the best players in the league. He is a franchise player is too strong, but for Carolina, he is a franchise player for that team. So getting him locked up. And also, the other thing is, I think with the timing right now, if you're going to sign that type of guy, like the highest paid player on your team, you probably want to sign him now because the cap is projected to go up quite a bit the next couple years.

The TV money coming in, suddenly you might see, like I could very well see three years from now you're looking back and saying, only nine for Ajo. That's a great. deal. Yeah, what a deal. So I think the timing of it, while that is a lot of money and he makes him one of the highest paid players, I think the timing of it is great for Carolina. Another siding, Tody DeAngelo, one year, $1.6, $75 million with those hurricanes. 42 points last season in 70 games with the flyers. They bought him out of the final season of his two-year contract. Yeah, I mean, they clearly thought he fit well in there. I think it was like, you look at his numbers from last year. And it was like, it's the tale of playing on a defenseman playing on a terrible team and then a defenseman playing on a great defensive team. I mean, he was a minus 27 in, in Philly. And then he goes to Carolina and is awesome. So it's, it's, we'll see what he does there. We know about the

person, Tony DiAngelo. In terms of the hockey, I think he fits well in Carolina. His numbers were, we're good there in 21, 22. Last year, they were obviously terrible, but it's, he was on a awful team, so it's hard to look at that. Rapid fire topic number three, Ilya Samsonoff and the Leaves went to arbitration. The Leifes were asking for a $2.4 million salary. He wanted 4.9.

He was awarded 3.55. My thoughts on this, the contract's fine, whatever, but my thoughts more so are arbitration hearings can be brutal for players. And we hear former players come out and say, after an arbitration hearing, I never wanted to play for

that team again, because it's just them telling the arbiter how shitty you are at hockey. And I think if there's one player on the team, you don't want to spend an entire hearing telling him how shitty he is before you play. It's the goalie for the Toronto Maple Leafs. Is there a higher, like, it's the quarterback for the Dallas Cowboys maybe is the only position in sports that is higher pressure than the starting goalie for the Toronto Maple Leafs? And right before the season, you're going to spend hours.

in a courtroom telling him how shitty he is at goalie. I think it's far from ideal. Very, very far from my deal. You were busy drinking margaritas last week, but I talked about this, how much of a, like an HBO 24-7. Forget leading up to, you know, the winter classic. I want an HBO 24-7 on arbitration.

And I just don't know how they do it. I don't know how they walk out of there going, all right, now you're part, because you know you're leaving as part of their team. it's it's mind-boggling to me that process. And it's, and like for him, like, it's easy for him right now in the middle of July to say, ah, they had to say that stuff. That's, that's, like, it's easy for you to compartmentalize it. But in May, when you lose two games in a row in the playoffs and you give up two goals and they

were, and they're game losing goals. And they were like, the reason you gave that goal up was the technique that they were shitting on you for back in arbitration. maybe it messes with your mind. Like, goalie is such a mental position. If there's a guy on the team, I do not want to shit on before the season starts.

It's my starting goalie for a team that's got more pressure than any team in the league. I don't like it. Or anything else. If they talk about the fact that Jesse Granger gives up way too many third period goals. And in your first five games of the season, you give up a bunch of third period goals. Well, that's going to really suck. Like, it's just going to get into your head.

Yes. All right. Rapid Fire topic number four. Vince Dunn signed a four-year. deal with the Seattle Cracken. $29.4 million. So that's a cap hit of 7.35. He was a restrictive free agent.

He got to avoid that salary arbitration hearing we were just talking about. Yeah, we were kind of talking about this a little before we came on. And my initial reaction, Vince Dunn's $7 million is, whoa, that's a lot of money. But you look into the numbers. I'm looking at like, I looked at some of his numbers on evolving hockey, his goals above replacement, is wins above replacement. And he was fantastic for that team last year. Other than Jared McCann, who scored a bunch of goals,

he was pretty much their most impactful player on a Cracken team that was really good and really deep. So we'll see how that contract plays out. But my initial reaction was a little shocked, but I think maybe that that number is pretty good for him. And finally, we have a coaching signing as Dave Haxdahl, two-year extension with the Seattle Cracken, obviously with coaches, they don't have to worry about cap or money or anything else.

They just signed who they want to sign. Thoughts on this one. Yeah, it's just, it's funny how things change so quickly in this league. Like the crack in that first year, they, they sucked. And after the way Vegas came into the league, everyone was like, oh, my God, Haxstall, it's a nightmare. Like, it's almost to the point where, like, the fans are chanting, sorry, Lindy in New Jersey. Like, the thing, things can change so quickly.

And now all of a sudden, Haxstall is awesome. and they're this team that made the playoffs, and they're on the upswing, and they're so deep, and they're young, and give Haxstall an extension. Like a year ago, you would have told someone Haxstall's getting it to your extension. They would have laughed in your face. There's no way that's happening. So things change quickly in this league. Boy, do they ever, and that's why we come on each and every week and talk about it.

Jesse, thanks for coming back. Mistya. We'll see if Rousseau's going to be back at any point where we can, you know, get on him a little bit. Go and put your wedding ring back on and get used to that thing because, Till death do us part, my friend. Till death do us part. As I mentioned earlier in the show, you want to look at our ugly mugs

or Jesse's empty hand. Just go to our YouTube channel at YouTube.com slash the athletic hockey show. And of course, the athletic hockey show continues Thursday with Ian Mendez and down goes round. Big thanks to Saad Yousaf for coming on. For Jesse, I'm Pizzo. Thanks for listening.

We're off the next two weeks. So we'll see you on August 60.