The Athletic Hockey Show - Penguins name Kyle Dubas President of Hockey Operations

Episode Date: June 2, 2023

Hailey Salvian and Sean Gentille are joined by The Athletic's Rob Rossi for an in-depth discussion on the Pittsburgh Penguins hiring Kyle Dubas as their new President of Hockey Operations on Thursday morning, including the timeline, takeaways from Dubas' press conference, what is next with the currently vacant GM spot, and much more.Subscribe to The Athletic Hockey Show on YouTube: http://youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic hockey show. All right, folks. We listened. We are back on a Friday. It's Haley Salvian. It's Sean Gentilly. Recording this on a Thursday evening for your posting pleasures or needs, whatever. Your posting pleasures.

Yeah, that gave me pause. For you sickos who want to listen to this show, at 7 a.m. On a Friday morning. It's here. The show is ready. We did this for you. Hello, Sean.

Hi. Happy Friday. Happy Friday. Man, I really thought, I thought we got away from that. Never thought I was going to have to hear that again. Alas. Oh.

Oh, that's very silly of you. You were talking about, Mike. There's big, yeah, big development in your world. So, there's a lot happening in the NHL, a lot happening in the life of Haley Salvean. Bono rolled in a stick of chewing gum,

like chewed gum. It wasn't just the stick. And now there's gum stuck in his hair. So while everyone's talking about Kyle Dubus, animals I say. Everyone's talking about Brad True Living, Andrew Burnett, whatever it may be, the cup final. I am chasing my French,

dog around with a piece of sharp cheddar and a bounty sheet doused in vegetable oil because I read a bounty sheet that's like brand name paper towel. Yeah. Yeah. Wait. Bounce is the drier stuff. Bounty. Yeah. Bounty. Like a good, like a premium paper towel for his skin and for doused in vegetable oil because I read online, that's how you get gum out of hair. And the dog was very frightened by the paper towel. Yeah, traumatizing. He is, well, he's fine. He's sleeping next to me, but the gum is still there.

So if anybody, before we get to the show, before we get to the Dubus News, if you have a tip on how to get gum out of your dog's hair, let me know. And no, I won't be providing details about how the gum got there. I don't know. I just pet him and there was gum on his body. And now I'm kind of freaking out. How do we transition into Kyle Dubus? So the penguins go from one sticky situation.

There we go. But really, they go from Ron Hextall. It reminds me of the time. Was that the grandpa from the Simpsons? Oh, it's every family guy transition ever. You know, Peter, that reminds me the time where. God, don't talk like that for too long or else you're going to activate a very weird corner of the internet. Oh, dear.

Okay. But for real, the penguins announced today that Kyle Dubus has been named the president of hockey operation. So there's lots of speculation, lots of people kind of waiting and wondering throughout this week. When is Kyle Dubas going to be announced as GM of the penguins? What's the holdup? I think some people started to think, oh, maybe he's looking out for the Ottawa situation. Maybe that's what happened. We don't know.

We cannot confirm or deny that speculation. But we do know now that he has been named the president of hockey operations of the Pittsburgh Penguins, Sean. Was this common knowledge that he grew up a Sanders fan? Like, is that a bit of, uh, I, that could be fake, honestly. I saw it online. I think it might be in his Wikipedia page. In the Sioux, he grew up as a Sends fan. I mean, I know that he was like always quite interactive with certain Sends fans.

like Brian five or six Matt Bosti Rotissory chicken Matt Bosti I bet you he asked Carl Dubas to go for a rotissory chicken one time So that I think seeing that The Sends job is good Right great young core

That roster's stacked and set up for short and long term success The ownership thing is whatever I don't think it really crossed my mind, and this is 100% bias because of where I'm from and where I live, it did not cross my mind that Kyle Dubus would turn down the penguins to work for the Sends until yesterday when I saw that little bit of trivia on the Wikipedia page that he grew up a sense fan. So it didn't happen.

The process took, because that's kind of what happens, I think, in search. just like this, where the process takes longer than maybe we initially thought, right? Because it seemed like we were cruising towards a resolution maybe before the weekend. And then it turned into the FSG people were in Monaco at the Grand Prix. And then there's, you know, a holiday weekend in the States. And it's like, maybe it'll be Tuesday. Maybe it'll be Wednesday. So you start, like, connecting the dots and thinking, like, is this actually going to happen?

Or is it not? And then, of course, you know, see. seemingly out of nowhere just when people are really starting to ask questions like okay what's happening here is there some kind of legitimate hold up on on one end or another 1030 penguins break their own news which is hilarious um but yes I so I I don't I'm not not even leading in anything but in particular there but it's it's been it's been it's been a long it was a longer it's just a weird we're talking about this about this process like it's some long drunk on-out thing.

And maybe to an extent it seems like it was, but we're still talking about, you know, 10 days ago. It's crazy how quickly stuff moves. Totally. And I feel like the Ottawa stuff is also a really good reminder of like just, like sometimes can we just let the process play out and not be like looking for each and every shred of some kind of intel we can find. mind. Like the Sends ownership sale process has been kind of a disaster because there's so much like,

oh, well, I'm hearing this. Now I'm hearing this. Now I'm hearing this. Oh, well, actually, like, they don't even have all the money yet. And actually, I don't think anyone's been the preferred bitter yet. And then we look at the dubous situation and it's like, oh, well, he's actually weighing his options between Ottawa and in Pittsburgh. And he's going to be the Pittsburgh GM. But then now he's announces the president of hockey operations. I understand this, like, desire and constant need for new information. But I think this was a pretty good example of, like, let's just let the Penguins thing play out. And now we know that he's the president of hockey ops.

We're going to dive into that more with Rob Rossi. He covers the Penguins. He was at the introductory press conference for Kyle Dubas today. But number one, I think it's really... Okay. I didn't go. Okay Do you want to have a story as to why?

No, I don't have a story. I don't have an excuse. He didn't feel like it. Okay. It was busy. Okay. This was like a day, this was like a day ruiner. Like I had a lot, I had a lot of other work stuff that I had planned to, that I had

planned to do. When you have something like that, that's a huge, huge news in general. And then also specifically to me, because it's the penguins and whatever else, it was like someone just dropped a, you know, dropped a bomb in the in the middle of my afternoon. Don't appreciate it. Well, you had a story come out about the availability. It was taken live, so you got to listen, you got to watch.

You had a good calm about it. Joshua, he had a story. Rob's going to join us, but I think the first thing to say about this, as you mentioned, Penguins dropped this news at around 10.30 Eastern Time. Brad Tree Living, by the way, was being introduced in his press conference as the new GM of the Toronto Maple Leafs at 11 o'clock. Eastern. The Penguins effectively got the jump on the news, like took over the news cycle and ensured that nobody from Toronto had time to hop on the highway and get to Pittsburgh

for that press conference. It's petty. It's great. Go penguins. Do you think someone would have done that if Brad Shee Living was not? Yes. Absolutely. If they, The dubest availability was tomorrow, there would be leaves media in attendance. It's a five-hour drive. What if it were like, what if it were like, we're announcing this news at 1030 and the press or is it 3.30? So what, they just had enough time to get there? It was like Toronto Reporter X needs to drop what he's doing and get on the road right now. I bet.

I bet they would, yeah, because there weren't a lot of questions asked about what happened with Toronto. And that is topical. He, two weeks ago, not even, he was talking about how if it's not here, it's nowhere. And I think he's taken a lot of heat for that. I do think, though, I don't know if you feel differently. Maybe this was just a grand power move by Kyle Dubus to get the kind of autonomy and power in organization that he wanted. But I also think some of the anger towards him, quote, unquote, walking back or turning.

you know, lying about saying it's here or nowhere is, I think it's like, I think it's unfair because in the context of those comments, he made that comment while they were in negotiations for a new deal. Like they were going to get a deal done at that point. So then Kyle goes and says, it's either here or nowhere. And then he goes to Brendan Shanahan and says, yep, I want to be here. It's Toronto. Brendan Shanahan fires him. And then the next morning, the Pittsburgh Penguins asked permission to interview Kyle Dubus. And he goes, talks to his family and goes, yeah, I'll talk. The context, the situation is completely different.

This is not Kyle Dubus saying, I'm not going to go and look for another job right now. I'm either going to be here or nowhere. And then he gets fired. And it's like, yeah, okay, I guess I guess I'll talk to my family and see if they're okay going somewhere else. And he did. And I think this is a win for the Pittsburgh Penguins at the end of the day. Oh, God, absolutely.

And what percentage of the people who are mad, air quotes mad today about dubus taking a new job so quickly? Those are 90% people who were thrilled that he got fired in the first place. I think it's an argument that's being made in bad faith by a certain. People who didn't like him in general. A certain Brandeliefs fans who had an axe kind of been. Okay, let's let's table this in. bring on Rossi. Yeah, let's, uh, let's drop this part of the conversation, um, because we have someone who is at the press conference who's been covering this for a while. It's Rob Rossi,

our colleague from Pittsburgh. Nothing going on today, Rob. What do you want to talk about? Ted, Ted Lassau finale? I haven't watched it yet. Oh, okay. However, however, no thanks. I'm feeling like it's going to be stupid and disappointing. The heel, the, the he'll turn on Haley and Ted Lassos. Yeah. I didn't think the third season was as bad as people have been making it out to be, but there are a lot of things that they're doing where I'm like, this is like what's happening right now. Like,

I'm not even going to spoil it for people. I won't spoil it for you, but if you were a fan of the first season, the finale, you'll probably not hate. It's a ringing endorsement. Okay. Yeah.

We'll see about that. All right. So the penguins. Yes. Make big news today. It's the big news the day. completely trumped the Bradtree Living introductory press conference in Toronto. Was it on purpose?

We don't know, but it's fun anyways. Kyle Dubas hired in Pittsburgh as the president of hockey operations. Lots to talk about him being the guy for the GM job. We know that once he became available, there was a full court press to bring him into Pittsburgh. But it's not as the GM. It's the president. He's in the big seat. He's got the power of the autonomy.

We assume the big bucks that he may be wanted in Toronto. What do you think, Rob? Bigger. Bigger. Yeah. What do we think, Rob? What do we, what's your initial thought on the news of the day and in the fun, fun aspect of plopping that press conference right before the Leafs? Yeah.

Yeah. So I'm not surprised. When this happened, the regime changed. I wrote, I think, the next day or the day after about how Kyle Dubas was always the guy. Fenway Sports Group, who owns the Penguins, sort of had as their dream candidate. They didn't think they'd get them because once the Maple Leafs won the first round, they figured he's coming back. And they were pretty far down the line with other candidates, as we've reported.

Some of the other people that we knew were in the mix were Matthew Darsh, Eric Tolski. They wanted to talk to Jeff Gretemberg with the Blackhawks. They weren't allowed permission to do that. Greeley in Dallas, a couple others. Oh, Dan McKeon in New Jersey. These were just some of the people that made it through the, you know, like the first round of interviews. And they were close, as I understand it, to doing a negotiation with somebody, going into the weekend of new bus is firing. And what happened was he

became available. And as he said at the press conference or the media availability, whatever you want to call it, Tom Werner, who's the chairman of Fenway Sports Group, he called him the next day and said, look, we want to talk to you. And from there it was really a matter of hashing it out. And the reason the press conference was today was because FSG's full group, John Henry, Tom Werner, Sam Kennedy, they wanted to be there for the, be there in person.

And they couldn't get in until today because they had prior business yesterday. So it just kind of worked out funny with the maple leaves and the penguins having these like dueling things. But I, I've heard from many of my Canadian brethren and sisters. Sister, is that the word? Sistrin, yes. Sistrin, and they're all convinced it was a conspiracy to keep Canadians out of Pittsburgh to ask. Yeah. Uh-huh.

I had a conversation that had effect probably five minutes ago. Really? It was with me. I said whether or not that's true. With another Canadian on this on the Zoom call. Right, but I didn't say that I hated it. I thought it was kind of funny. I think it would be great.

Rob, I know when you're hard to heart. you wish that that would have been something they would have chosen deliberately. I just find the whole thing hysterical because if you had, if we had seen a movie, right, where the whole thing with the Penguins happens the way it did and we crack at Josh and I in our story about the chaos of the last regime. What story? I haven't heard anything about this one. If that was the first movie, right?

And the follow-up became what happened with Toronto, starting with the second round loss and the way it just fell apart in a week, everything, towards this happening today where, like, Toronto hired a GM who's not allowed to be at their draft table at the draft. It's the most ridiculous, the president, the GM who didn't want to work with a president over him having control. It's like if you scripted it all out, an editor or a producer would have said, okay, that's like maybe two steps too far. Definitely. But it happened. So, okay, so we know why this happened on Thursday rather than like Tuesday, let's say, right? Because there was that bit of outstanding or whatever, whatever outstanding business the FSG guys had. Tuesday the deal was agreed to.

Okay. Is there something, or do you have a vibe that there's something that stopped that took us from Friday to Tuesday? Because it seemed like at the end of last week, we were moving in the direction where this was going to get sewed up. Like the can kept, the can, the can, the can, the can got kicked down the road a couple times. We know why it happened the last time. But that jump from like Friday to Monday, do you have any, do you have any sense or anything? you can say about why that might have happened? Things went really well through.

Dubus was in town through Thursday, as my understanding, last Thursday. And Friday, he liked everything he was seeing and wanted to go home and talk to his family about whether they really wanted to do this. It was a holiday weekend in the States. So Monday was like a no-go. So Tuesday they reconvened. I don't think it was in Pittsburgh. I don't think they reconvened in Pittsburgh.

I don't know where yet. And that's when it all got agreed to. What was interesting about today's press conferences, last week, Jen Belon originally, who's the VP of Communications with the Penguins. And basically, because of this hire, should probably be next like the executive vice president of the Penguins. Like, apparently she was like sneaking Kyle all over parts of town to, to like get him fed and to show him areas, like to show him. Staying away from Brookline, though. Yes.

None of the places I was stalking did I see them. But I'm hopeful to, I'm hopeful to learn what, what cuisine sold Kyle on Pittsburgh. I doubt it was permanence. Not Silk Road at the Cassie Village shopping center. Hey. Hey. family friends oh it's a great place

I'm just saying he would never he had to take a wide birth of that place he's gonna run into someone somewhere over there probably yeah so so I think what happened last week was he did need more time and I you know I've tried to remind myself of this while covering this

his life changed pretty dramatically in four days and I don't know it doesn't seem like nine 10 11 days days is that long to make a big life decision. And the other thing is, I've been told that once it got to late last week, the penguins had taken the approach of, we're going to make it impossible for you to say no. Like, everything you ask for, you're going to get, you know.

Do you want cheetahs in your office guarding your, you know, personables, fine. We'll make it happen. Who among us? Who among us doesn't? Right. You know, you want a sunny day for your introductory press conference through the windows. We will make that happen. The biggest ask of all.

Oh, my God. For a guy who was fired, he had a remarkable bargaining stream. Looking at this move, I mean, I think there are going to be people who debate the fact that he didn't have a lot of playoffs. success in Toronto. They won one playoff series. We've already seen a lot of people bringing that up. But at the same, like for me, I look at this and I think this is the best case scenario for the penguins, especially when you listen to the introductory press conference today and you hear the things that Kyle Dubus was specifically pointing out about the depth and the big three. Like, it must feel really good to be a Genie Malkin right now and have your general manager go up at a

press conference before even meeting you in person and saying, I'm, going to bet on this guy. Like this seems like, I don't know how it could have been better for Pittsburgh post Ron Hextall. Well, I asked him getting what he thought and he said his good. So. Yay. That's a two thumbs up.

I can tell you that the big three were paying attention to this. And Dubus did have a brief meeting with Crosby last week. It wasn't like a formal thing. They kind of. So Dumas spent a lot of time at the facility. last week and the practice facility. And getting to know the scouts and that. So he ran into Crosby there.

But look, I think it's tough for me to be super critical of his tenure in Toronto because I remember covering the league. I'm old enough to remember covering the league when the Maple Leafs didn't even make the playoffs regularly. So I kind of look at it like that whole regime. Maybe it was time for a change, but they made the Maple Leaf super relevant again around the NHL, not just in the Mecca, right? Two, and this is going to sound like a shot, and maybe it is. But there's two big differences between the core four and the big three. The core four is younger and the big three performs in the playoffs. I can think a three, actually.

Yeah. Three large silver differences between one and the other. A texter on the radio show on the Colin on the show that I host today that said, Kyle Dubus is finally going to get a core group of stars that actually know how to win. Something he's never had before. He doesn't have a bottom six worth a damn. But he at least mentioned the fact that that is what they need. Like the big three were not the problem in Pittsburgh last year.

It wasn't Crosby Malkin. It wasn't resigning. Chris LaTang that was the issue and Sean wrote this really well in his piece it was the guys that they had and the guys that Ron Hextall showed the door for whatever reason.

When I was going through that by the way and Haley we like we talked about this like going through the the cheap guys basically the Toronto signed over the last few years like you know David Camp and these guys who were like they're nothing

they're nothing special right David Kamp would have been second in goals in the Penguins bottom six last year. This is a guy who... And he scored seven goals, by the way. Yeah. Right. Is he good? Like, I don't know.

He can PK. He can kill penalties. He can eat tough minutes and he makes a million and a half dollars a year. What is, like, is that Kisperi Kappan, or whatever? Nope. More promising than Michael Grandland. Oh. You know, I will say this.

Two points, and I'll try to make them quickly because I know I talk too much. What's the point of a podcast, right? Correct me if I'm wrong, Haley. But didn't most of the teams the Maple Leafs lost to in the playoffs end up going to the Stanley Cup final? That's correct. Okay. I'm just saying it's possible he built really good teams that, just quite weren't good enough.

I only bring that up because... Okay, but if you say that, people are going to say that you're like a Leafs fan or something. Like, there's no space for that. There is nobody on the planet that would accuse me of a fan of being anything Canadian. Trust them. The Leafs didn't lose in the second round because the group that Kyle Duke was put together. Right.

I mean, you can look back at like giving John Tavares the contract that he has. And you can look at, you know, giving Neelander the deal that he wants. But, like, Nealander isn't overpaid right now. And I think we need to look back. It's the same conversation we're having about the tree living and the Kachuk thing. Look back to the day that that deal was made. There was like parties in Toronto. I lived in Toronto at the time.

My dad called me. I was at the gym. Everyone was freaking out. Like, that was a huge win for the city of Toronto is getting John Tavares. And now people want to say, well, like, that was Dubas's downfall. It's like, that was the party day. Like, come on. Sure, it looks bad now. It's not a great contract. And Tavares is getting older and he's slowing down. But let's not forget that that was a huge win for Kyle Dubus and the Toronto Maple Leafs at the time. Kyle Dubus was a GM at 32, right? 31. He's only two years younger than Sydney Crosby. Older than Sydney Crosby. Excuse me.

Yeah. I mean, I'll put you this way. I'm much older than Kyle. I'm 45 and he feels like a young kid to me. I'm very relieved to be a few months younger than him too, by the way. He just barely has me be. Thank God. I covered the Penguins and Capitals rivalry and always came away from that feeling, boy, it's kind of a shame Alex Ovechkin just happened to be born at the same time of Sidney Crosby and they ended up on these teams that are going to have to keep meeting

in the second round because Crosby's teams were just a little bit better. Now, Alex won his Stanley Cup. Who's to say that Toronto wouldn't have won its Stanley Cup if they had continued if it had continued with things

like it was. I never understood the whole you have to break up the big four. This is coming from someone who listened to, what was it, Sean, three years of break up the big three and why are we saying? Don't. Never. And Sean has

said to me many times about the penguins and I would imagine he thinks similarly about the Maple Leafs when you're given a gift you know don't what's the phrase Sean don't waste it right don't waste it.

What are you doing if you trade Mitch Marner what Mitch Marner's gone in Toronto tomorrow? What's day two look like? You're trying to find Mitch Marner again. Yeah, you lose the trade. You lose the trade. All you can ask for

when you have a group of players like that is an executive who who gives a shit like that that is that is that sounds basic but it's true Jim Rutherford gave a shit Jim Rutherford his his superpower was that he cared about that that more than anybody and it it manifested itself in in negative ways right the roster shuffling and some of the some of the snap decisions that he made and the way that he left was like whatever We've, don't need to relitigate Jim Rutherford here, I guess. But the thing he got from day one was when he walked in and was like, listen. He's, maybe is, that's where Rutherford benefit from being older and being around it

and realizing like that something like that doesn't come around all that often. And Dubis, to his credit, at less than half the age of Rutherford at this point, he acted as if, you know, the saying act as if he didn't. that with the Maple Leafs and he's doing it with the Penguins now sincerely in a way that came through in the press conference on day one on day one he understands the gift that was my favorite sorry Rob was part of this gig is going to be to supplement the greatness that those people being Crosby Malkin, Latang and Mike Sullivan by the way so people can stop Galaxy bringing him to the Rangers to supplement the greatness that those people bring each day.

That was a huge takeaway for me from this press conference. Don't you guys think? 100%. Rob, and I want to ask something about Sullivan specifically, because this is something I've heard on. Can we do the Sullivan? Rob answered this question, then you could ask us Sullivan.

I just want to point out that it was completely different than when Hextall and Burke were. Oh. When Hexstall and Burke were hired. We weren't there. We watched it over Zoom. You watch it over Zoom. Which is insane in hindsight.

You never really felt they could articulate what a plan was. And we found out that they never could. Yep. Do this. It was window dressing. By the way he talked today. I wanted to ask about Sullivan specifically because I've heard this. I'm not going to like name specific names, but I've heard people on the radio here over the last couple days consistently sort of like float, guess, whatever that part of the hold up for Kyle Dubitz of the Pittsburgh Penguins had to do with like the amount of power and the amount of juice that Mike Sullivan had.

And that that was an issue for dubus, like the possibility that, you know, Sullivan was whatever called shadow boss or however you want to turn it was like what it was an issue for him. And can you just like blow that out of the water? Because like I'm tired of hearing people talk about this. That's funny. In Pittsburgh, you'll hear things on the radio or read things in like self-owned websites that are just. Not tethered to reality. They're not dialed into the organization the way they need to be. You saw it with the sort of mythical Mike Sullivan problem with this hire.

Suddenly, Mike Sullivan in Pittsburgh is viewed completely differently than he is everywhere else in the hockey world. Where everywhere else in the hockey world looks at it is like, he's a top five coach. Why would I get rid of him? and you're bringing in a president of hockey operations who had a coach in Toronto that likes to coach the same way Mike Sullivan's teams do, right? So, no, there wasn't a problem. And Sullivan met multiple times with Dubus. The other thing you would hear or read a lot, I mean, FSG just took a pounding this week.

And it was all because FSG is an outsider. They're Boston-based. And it's all stems from everybody in Pittsburgh, or at least some, a lot of the Pittsburgh media just assume this thing had to be over at a certain point. And as I talked to someone today who was very involved with the search, they kind of laughed at that basically said, why would we do things on somebody's timetable that isn't our own? This is like exactly what we talked about in the first segment. I was like, I was like, why?

Because I caught myself, like, falling into that trap over the last few days where it's like, Oh, this is this finish yet? Like, what the, like this? It's been 10 days. Like, what? Who cares? They basically started this search over again 10 days ago. And they targeted one person and like, I look at it like this.

They called him the morning, the morning after his time came to an end in Toronto. The morning after he was fired, they got permission. The captain of the high school hockey team. team was dumped on a Friday night. And the person that was interested in taking him to the prom called the next morning, wasted no time. Didn't do a Rod Rossi move. It would have been like, should I?

Oh, I'll ask a friend, should I? Oh, maybe a friend. They were like, we want you. And then they put on like none of this subtlety. There was no subtlety with the penguins. They were just like, we want you, we need you. What do you want? Like, you know, ponies, unicorns, ice cream, whatever you want.

Millies. Yeah. Like, all we, you know, we just, we want you. And it took them 10 days to figure it out. And I don't think that's too much time when you consider. Dubis is moving his family to a different country. Not, not, this isn't like anywhere you would go after Toronto would, would be different because there's nothing like the

what is it the melt the the crucible that is toronto right but you're going to move to another country like and you got to do it relatively quick because you need to get to work yeah totally like I I felt like a lot of the I felt like a lot of the reporting on this um everywhere both locally and nationally was guessing. We were talking about that before we brought you in, Rob, about all the odd. Absolutely. And this is not throwing mud on our own colleagues, on friends, on other people in the industry. But the dubus one specifically, Sean and I were just saying, was really strange because it was just like, well, it's going to be this day or it's going to be this day. Oh, well, there's a

holdup. Oh, Mike Sullivan's involved somehow. Oh, maybe it's going to be these two guys. Oh, actually, I think he's waiting to see what happens with the Ottawa sale now. And by the way, I did a fact check. The thing on Wikipedia that says Dubus grew up a sense fan. Is that fake? It was, I don't know if it's fake, but it was credited to an article from the athletic in 2019 that literally just said Dubus was reportedly a fan of the sense.

Okay. As a child, there was six words in a story a couple years ago that said Dubus was reportedly. a sense fan. And then people were like, well, Dupus grew up a fan of Ottawa, so this makes a lot of sense. Yeah. So we're with you, Rob. It got a little bit weird. And I think it's got a little strange. I think there's a reason for that. We had new ownership in Pittsburgh. And FSG did a really good job of wanting to do, of doing what it wanted to do, excuse me, of keeping it quiet.

And what I've heard about Kyle is that, though very agreeable with the media, there were times in Toronto where he could go into a deep hole when he felt like he needed to. his potential new bosses didn't want word getting out. I think what you saw happened this week was a lot of, I don't blame them, I don't blame the reporters for this. Everybody involved wanted to keep their mouth shut. That's what,

that's what it is. FSC didn't want to talk about it, neither did do this. I think other people, yeah, exactly, Sean. And I think other people who have been reliable sources, because I know this has happened to me, I'd just speak for myself here. Reliable sources in the past would tell me

things. And there may have been a time where, like, I had something that I could have gone with, Sean knowing this where it was like, look, you're not sure. Because when you can't get somebody to even tell you, don't go with it, you get a little hesitant. And I think some people just sort of, once the Maple Leaf's situation sort of started to focus on tri-living, it's, it became obvious like Kyle and the Penguins. But I just don't think anybody was that dialed in. Yeah. In hindsight, the amount of time spent makes sense because, of course, like, everybody there wants to get a deal done. And also, by that point, if you're FSG, like, what's worse than not getting Kyle Dubas? Like, well, like, of course he was who they wanted.

Circumstances are what they are. The Leafs advance in the playoffs. Maybe if the press conference doesn't happen, like, we're not having this conversation. But Penguins beat the Blackhawks. We might not be having this conversation. True. But we're this far down the road, right? Calgary Flames had one more point than the Florida Panthers.

Oh my God. Yeah. Crazy. The butterfly effect of this whole hockey season goes back to that last week in Pittsburgh, right? Oh, my God. Absolutely. The loss of the Blackhawks, you know, it affected the draft. It affected this.

I mean, we thought months ago that the East was superior to the West, and it turned out the West had more key higher points. I mean, now that's way off track. I just, this makes sense for this reason. If you're going to be the man or woman running the show in Pittsburgh, you need to be able to do the things that Dubus has shown he can do. He has shown he can make trades while holding on to top prospects. Not that the penguins have a lot of top prospects.

He's shown he can find good players in depth positions, right? He's shown he can work with a coach who thinks about playing an aggressive style or an uptempo style. And he's shown that he's comfortable with a dynamic where there are stars. So, you know. That's something that you always, you've always reinforced in conversations that we had. I think to a degree that maybe I never, I didn't appreciate, like, as a fan, like, growing up, how much of the penguin's identity is built on not just high quality hockey, but like aesthetically pleasing hockey. Like goals, beauty, like, whatever. And I remember you hammering that whenever Mike Johnston was the coach because he turned.

He turned Sidney Crasby from like the most, the world's greatest grinder into just a grinder, basically, for a couple years there. And that is, I think in a way, that is like part of this organization's DNA or has become such over the last, you know, 40 years. And Dubus is a guy who respects that part of it, too. Like, these are all things when you're watching them talk, like, right? Like, as you and Josh and maybe, maybe in particular, like, guys who haven't watched Kyle Dubus speak all that much and aren't as steeped in it is maybe Toronto people or national people are like

that had to be part of the of the of the of what is running through your head is you're watching this guy talk at length for the first time today. The first thought I had was it was the best introduction anybody associated with the penguins has had in my 19 years. That includes the day Sidney Crosby walked down an escalator at the Pittsburgh airport. to a throng of media and fans and killed it. It was just perfect. But Dubus was even better than that today.

Going back a bit more closely to the news the day, I guess, in the press conference of Kyle being introduced as president of hockey operations, we talked about his showing. He impressed. And I think for me, the biggest takeaway was his comments about the depth and believing in the big three,

was there a big takeaway that you had from today, Rob? Two. First was, I think, the elephant in the room, which is that he's comfortable with Mike Sullivan. Yeah. And I always thought that was going to be the case for whoever was hired, but he left no doubt. Even above that was this. This interested me because the first question went to me, and I only bring that up because I asked it very, I didn't beat around the bush. I literally did. I think I said, So Kyle, like, what's going on with a GM? Like, and his answer was interesting to me for this reason. He obviously, you know, he clarified it he'll basically be the interim GM through the draft and free agency. And then he said something, maybe it was just word choice, but he seems to be a pretty honest guy based off his exit in, exit press conference in Toronto.

He said, if we decide to go that route, we'll do it later. And then when pressed for like what he wanted out of a potential GM, he talked about somebody who has strengths that he doesn't necessarily have and is progressive. And I know progressive is a dangerous word because it means a lot of things to a lot of people. But I wonder if the Penguins are even going to have a GM. I wonder if they're not just going to go find somebody that Kyle trusts make them the associate GM and then hire assistance to be. sort of specialist in areas, because he's, he is the GM. Like, not entitled, but he is the GM. So why do you need to hire GM?

And I can't wrap my head around this. Why would he do to a GM what was done to him? My thought on that was that it affords them the opportunity to give someone a bump. Like, like, he's got, like, he has the priors now that, because he's not a, he's not a first year GM or, third year. He had five years, you know, in that role and felt like he'd progress beyond it, whether it's from responsibility standpoint or from a, from a cash a standpoint, salary, whatever. He was like, he took the step up. And now this gives him the opportunity to, you know, work, work with someone maybe in a different, but there's every org is different. Like,

every, every, there's multiple templates for the, for the way this could go. So I, see that it doesn't it doesn't strike me as odd like i i think i think given his given his track record and given you know the way things are shaking out here i think it makes sense right because he's not going to there's not going to be any kind of like weird big brother little brother scenario going on it was interesting the way he phrased it and if this is the way it's going to be and he's going to do it basically to give somebody a chance i go back to what dave beast and said the day and announced the firings of Hextall and Burke. It was subtle, but it was noticeable. He talked about hockey leadership, and he repeatedly used the phrase he or she. I do wonder if this is the first

real opportunity for one of the many qualified women in the NHL to get a shot, to really get a shot at the big chair, at the GM chair. Because to me, if you have a shot, you have a shot, you have a shot at the GM chair. Because to me, if you have Kyle Dubus as the president of hockey operations, if you're going to have a general manager, you can afford to, I don't want to say take a chance on somebody, but you don't need to hire a retread. You can you can give somebody their opportunity that they deserve. And in doing the research, I found that there's, you know, more than a handful of qualified women working in front offices that would deserve a shot. Top of my list?

Go ahead. Megan Duggan. Okay. Great choice, right? The penguin should look to do that. That would be a really big thing, not for the sake of hiring, but because now they have an opportunity where it's not like we're risking the Crosby-Malkin era on an unproven person, which I think would have happened if you hired an assistant GM or something, right?

But if you have the structure in place, it's necessary, like regardless to, to take a chance on, I don't know, I don't even say take a chance, but to hire a first time general manager, right? Whoever that might be. When you have the, when you have the structure in place that they do. But yeah, Megan Doug. I hope they do it. I hope they really. Kate Madigan. If they really are going to hire a GM to, and it's going to be a real G.

and a partnership like that, I hope they put their money where their mouth was. And, you know, if the best candidate is, you know, isn't a white male, they should hire that candidate. Yeah. Because somebody has to take the step. And they're in a position where you could take the step and it could work. You're not set up to fail. Yeah.

You can, I mean, learn from Kyle Dubus, be like ushered in with Kyle. you're not being thrown to the wolves. But you are also for the people who are going to say, I just want the most qualified. These are qualified women. Yes. Like Kate Madigan is a really interesting one. You know,

she's been working in New Jersey for quite a few years now. I mean, she was the team's director of pro scouting. She was in hockey operations. And now she's in AGM. Yeah. Like Megan Duggan. I believe they wanted to talk to her originally.

Yeah. I mean, Megan Duggan's an interesting one because, I mean, she already had, like, she had that speech in the Leafs locker room. Kyle Dubas called up Thomas Sherald and said, can you bring in, can I bring in Megan Duggan for this? And I know it's different. Making a speech in the room for pride is different than being a general manager of an NHL team. I understand that. But like Megan has like the respect of her peers. She's been there, done that when it comes to winning at the top level of her competition.

and she's been working with the devils for a while too. I've seen a lot of men's... A lot of men. A lot of men who's exceeded at the top whose biggest check box on their resume was like high level success as a player and then a few years is the underside. There are guys within the big chair right now

that have that background. One little piece of news too. Elliot Friedman said on the Jeff Merrick show today on the Sports Net Radio Network. he thinks that Jason Spetsa is going to join the organization in some capacity. Jason Spetsa was the special assistant to Kyle Dubas last season after he retired. We all saw the clip of him very sweetly writing in his notebook during training camp while everyone else just sat there without pens or paper.

Yes, fastidious note taker Jason Spetser. How does Jason Spetsa, assistant general manager of player development sound? Something like that. There were people being like he's the GM, right? I was like, no, you don't go from assistant to GM, but I do think Jason Spetsa being in some kind of development or ops role where he's dealing with the guys makes a lot of sense. Okay. This is going to be very interesting. I wrote about this about a week or so ago when I did the top pre-agent goalies to look out for. Will Tristan Jari be able to get like a short term, you know, not very expensive contract because of his injury history? Or is Tristan Jari going to price himself out of Pittsburgh because the goalie free agent class sucks? It's a great question. I think it's a question that Dubis is going to wrestle with and study closely. He alluded to that today.

he didn't commit the Tristan Jari. No, but he also left open the possibility that Tristan Jari was the goalie. I would just say this. I think there's a good chance Jari's going to price himself out of Pittsburgh because the market is what it is. So bad. There's also a good chance that Dubis is going to look at the market and go, who else is going to play? I'm not going to do this again. He just did the Matt Murray thing.

I think Dubis is going to look at Freddie Anderson playing really well. in the third round of the playoffs or whatever and go, maybe I should stick with the internal guy a little bit longer. Yes. But it might be that the penguins want Jari on a short-term deal because of his- prove it. He's been so unpredictable. Right.

And that Jari's going to get a longer-term deal because when you look at Jari's whole career in his age, he's a 27-year-old two-time all-star goalie, which a lot of teams will jump at. And I think you could have a fair debate that he would. would be the best UFA goalie if he hit the market. Between him and Freddie Anderson. So why wouldn't he hit the market? Because he likes Pittsburgh maybe.

He wants to keep playing behind Sidney Crosby, but maybe he just wants to go make as much money as possible. I think, I don't know Tristan well. This is his big deal. But coming off a year where I missed so much time because of injury. I wouldn't test the market. Well, depending on what the penguins offer, if you think there's even a four-year deal out there,

I think I'd have to take the term over the money. Don't you? Oh, for sure. Like, do you think the penguins are going more than a couple years? Yeah. If you're Tristan Jari, you try to take as much term on your contract as possible because you've been, I mean,

it's because it's as big swing. It's his big UFA contract. But yeah, miss a lot of time. So I don't know. That's going to, that is the only question going forward that I think is crucial and could have many answers. And there's another part of that, Haley, which is also do the players have confidence in Jari anymore?

And I don't know that answer. I know this. The Penguins didn't make the playoffs this year. They have an older team. They're going to look different going into next season. They'll probably look different in December and January than they did going into next season. But they will be relatively rested. They're going to not have this sort of toxicity.

that existed last year. And they're going to look at these playoffs right or wrong and say, you know what, if you get in, you have a chance. So they've suddenly become a lot more interesting to me because of that. I think Sean alluded to this really well in his story today. If Kyle Dubus can get a decent bottom six and get a goalie, whether it's Tristan Jar, or maybe he trades for a goalie, hella buck,

Demco, Gibson. I mean, you have to give up so much that so many assets of the penguins don't really have to get those guys. Like, they don't have like this great cupboard of prospects. So I don't know if that's going to happen. They don't have a great prospect. No, no.

They barely have prospects. But if they can, if they can solidify the crease and get like a decent bottom six, like they're going to be a contender again in year one under Kyle Dubus. I think I that that is their only objective. He can talk all he wants about setting it up for the future, but you got a short window.

If getting Malkin has three years left on his contract, he's probably done after that. So you probably got three years with these three generational players, Crosby, Lattang, and Malkin, to make this work. And and it's cross that bridge when you get there. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And at some point, they're going to decline in a season.

Mm-hmm. And be just players that are not great for 36 and 37 years old. Yeah. So maybe that's, maybe that's this time, but whatever. That's why I think it's imperative he gets the goalie thing right. Because they're going to need a goalie. In 16 and 17, their goalie didn't have to win them a lot of games. True.

Yeah. They're going to need a goalie that when they're going to need someone who can steal a couple, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, who can win some games. Who can be the Band-Aid over some issues because their D-Corps is 37 years old on average or whatever. Right. But, I mean, I don't know. I mean, again, I look at these playoffs and I just go, I look at the playoffs and I go, I could make an argument for any one of the goalie discussions.

Don't pay one. Totally. Kyle even said today, like, it's, I forget the exact word he used, but he basically said, like, it's the hardest to figure out position in it's voodoo. Yeah. Yeah. So.

All right. Well, thanks, Rob. We appreciate you doing this. Thanks. All right. So that was a lengthy chat with Rob. But the penguins in general.

Usually is. Berg in general. That's the fun. It's the fun of it. Yeah. Kind of goes all over the place. If you've stuck with us, we appreciate you.

If you're here now, this is your bonus little treat. Uh, the gum is, not off the dog. I just went and checked. It's still there. So the vegetable didn't work. So please hit us up in the comments. About how to get the gum off my dog.

But in all seriousness, not to go off the rails, as I say, that was a winding road. Final thoughts on Kyle Dubas? I think we about, we've exhausted it for the most part. Like, it's a good hire for the penguins. I think I kind of started, I think I edged around this.

with Rossi like the alternative would have been bad and I think that's why I think that's why they made I think that's why it was so clear that in hindsight that this was going to happen because there was no other alternative for Fenway after you know pulling the shoot on their on their original search and changing course to accommodate Kyle Dubus and if they were going to let it you can't let him get away once that happens if he's going to take the job you got to make sure he takes the job and it's a big win for fsg i i think maybe that's i think maybe that's my big takeaway is that pretty good showing for fenway sports group which needed one because they've been the owners of of this team for about two years we didn't know much about we didn't know what they were about

we didn't know how they operated in in an a jail capacity and i think they showed us uh over the last week or so it was good it was a good work good work by them well dave bistan uh who's with fsg was asked about the process and the coaching search and he put it He put it, excuse me, pretty well. He said, I think the process was a massive success because we're sitting up here with Kyle. There you go. All as well that ends well, right? That's clearly the approach they took.

If they got that dude, regardless of how it happened, regardless of the route that took them there, it was going to be a positive end. So one final thing before we end the show, I think has been festering for a while. I've been thinking about it. I think that Kyle Dubus is the right guy for this job. I think Kyle Dubus is a good hockey mind. I like Kyle Dubus. I know. However, what is happening with the conversations around Brad Trilliving in Toronto?

And the way that people are relitigating every single thing that he did as GM of the Calgary Flames. Why are you not doing the same thing with Kyle Dubus as GM of the Leafs? like people are looking at everything Brad did in Calgary and saying this was bad, this was bad, this didn't turn out, he gave up a first round pick for this. It's like, re-litigate what Kyle did in Toronto then too. There's this really weird thing happening. I don't think people are over it yet. People aren't over the Kyle. They're not over Kyle in Toronto. And there's been a lot of like, well, look at all the stuff that Brad Tree Living messed up really bad in Calgary without like acknowledging the fact that

Dubus wasn't perfect either. Look, Brad Tree Living made a lot of, there's some bad moves on his resume in Calgary. Mm-hmm. Some real rough ones. Troy Brower, bad. They'd buy that out right away. They bought out and then re-sign Michael Stone.

Michael Stone, you are a Toronto Maple Leaf Market. Oh my goodness. But like there were some bad deals by Brad True Living. I think everyone knows that. But I think there's this, a lot of Leafs fans are like looking at the Kachuk deal because of how well Kachuk's playing. and saying like, so the GM in Toronto who needs to like work on the core for and negotiate

Austin Matthews deal is the one that traded Matthew Kucucukchuk for Huberto, as if everyone didn't say that that was an A plus plus when it happened. A lot of short term memory lost there. And also, also. And by the way, they got Hubert O Weeger, a first round pick and a prospect. So it wasn't just Huberto. Also some amount of context lost there where people just for whatever reason just. This is like, well, why didn't he lock in Matthew Kutchech?

Chuck long term when he could. It's like, because Matthew didn't want to. Like, am I crazy here? Cichuk wanted to sign a bridge deal so he could evaluate what he wanted three years down the road. And like, what is going on? Cichuk didn't want a long term deal in Calgary. He held out until the start of camp because he wanted a bridge deal in Calgary. The angriest you ever been on the show, I think. I think I just, this is my safe space to rant. Yeah. And I just really needed to get that out. I think It's bothering me. Also a lot of the true living

criticism there's like a level of willful ignorance to the situation in Calgary. Like that's not a great ownership group and there are baked in disadvantages to trying to run a team in that particular place, right?

Uh-huh. The Saddle Dome is this like one of the, if not the oldest building next to Madison Square Garden but that has like It doesn't count. It doesn't count.

The building is old, the facilities are old. This is a spirited defense of Bradtree living. He deserves it. I don't feel like I want to go out and do that either. It's going to look like it's a, well, you were just in Calgary and Brad was probably nice to you. But I just think like there's so much stuff right now talking about like, well, now Brad Tree Living, what Brad Tree Living is going to do better than Kyle. it's like Kyle Dubus was the best person for the job in Toronto and then he got fired. So guess what?

Like no one's saying that Brad Shrew Living is a better GM than Kyle Dubus. He's pretty progressive in his own way too. Like he hired he hired Chris Snow. He hired David Johnson. He was like a foremost database guys, right? Like there's a lot to, there's a lot of quant focused stuff that happened in Calgary with with him at the home. The one thing I will say though, like that's not really.

is there's a lot of the things that people really liked about Kyle Dubus, they are going to like about Brad Tree Living. And there's going to be things that Brad Tree Living brings the table that Kyle didn't. Kyle does go into the hole. Kyle can be very serious and very short in media conferences. Brad can do that too. But like we saw in the press conference today, Brad was cracking jokes. He made a joke about how Gio is, Mark Giordano is 75 years old and it's good to see him still kicking around because a lot of guys don't play that long. And he had a joke on overdrive on TSN today. Like Brad's got a good personality.

He's funny. He'll do the dad jokes. And he'll bring that like caring aspect to the table too. That's what a lot of people loved about Kyle Dubus. You know, when Ilya McIyev got hurt and he's in the hospital, Kyle stayed with him. And I've heard a lot of stories of Bradtree living being like very caring and like taking care of his guys in Calgary as well. One agent told me, you know, just last week, it's going to, it's going to be.

be hard to find a GM who cares more about his players than Brad True Living. So said, I agree with you. Just wanted to add that in there at the end because we had this whole conversation about how great Kyle is and how this is a win for Pittsburgh. And I think a lot of the secondary conversation, especially with the Brad True Living press conference today was like, well, that sucks for Toronto. We'll see how it works out. At the end of the day, just like the Leafs, just like last season, Brad is going to be graded on how they do when it matters most. Will it work?

I don't know. But if you're going to list all the bad moves that Brad made with no context, do the same thing. Every GM makes some bad ones. You just hope there's more good than bad when you make a hire like that. And I think that's true for true. I think that's true for Kyle to do this. Yep. All right.

We've been talking for far too long. I think I just blacked out and yelled about the Maple Leafs again. I apologize. Leaves fans are going to start to hate me. Time traveled, 15 minutes in the future. Sorry, Danielle. She's going to be like, damn it, I said, five minutes. Danielle's going to be so mad at me. All right.

That's it. Thanks, Sean. You're welcome. I'll do this again next one. You're welcome. All right. Thanks, everyone for listening, as always. Sorry for the rant at the end.

Yeah, I like that. Let me know if you liked it. Give us a rating of you, comment in the section. And just a reminder, if you're not an athletic subscriber, you can join us at theathletic.com slash hockey show to get an annual subscription for $2 a month for 12 months.