The Athletic Hockey Show - Red Wings season ends in heartbreak, NHL playoff picture is set

Episode Date: April 17, 2024

Sean, DGB and Frankie Corrado discuss the NHL playoff picture, which is now set, with the heartbreaking end to the season for the Detroit Red Wings in Montreal last night. The guys wonder if Auston Matthews will score his 70th goal tonight in Tampa, if Nikita Kucherov will join Connor McDavid with 100 assists this season, and if the Winnipeg Jets have the advantage over the Colorado Avalanche in their playoff matchup.Plus our old friend Craig Custance joins for a discussion on if Joel Pavelski is a hall of famer and the role that new NHLPA boss Marty Walsh played in fixing the Arizona Coyotes situation in our questions from the App segment.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic hockey show. Welcome, welcome, welcome. This is the Wednesday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. Two Sean's and a Frank. I think we're sticking with that name. Just like where my brain goes immediately. I feel like we talked a big game about coming up with something clever and then we just didn't. We have one in the comments, which maybe we'll get to in segment three, maybe not.

I think people are still kind of sending in actually funny suggestions. which is not a surprise because we can't do that sort of stuff. Yeah. Sean McIndoo, how are you? I'm good. Holy smokes, we got a lot going on. That was crazy last night. I don't think I was expecting the playoff field to get sat last night.

I figured there would be some kind of, you know, I mean, I know that East Wild Card was kind of the only one that was still outstanding. But I kind of was anticipating both those teams to lose. And it didn't happen. to do get your playoff previews ready yeah isn't that cool guess what i'm doing today we wrote two yesterday and i my big goal was to wake up early and finish the finish the leafs panther the the the leif's bruin's preview i was going to say did you like did you did you did you have a leafs panther's 90% ready to go just i i've learned dude i i've learned my lesson there never pre write never pre write anything i'm still afraid to write leaves bruin's i'm afraid that

something's going to happen in the next couple days to screw that out. A lot of league fans are afraid to read it. So, so, it's going to be good. What did, what did you learn this week? What have we learned,

Sean? I really thought we'd seen every possible permutation of a team breaking its fan base's heart until last night. It's the Detroit Red Wings. Like, how is that, I mean, for anybody who wasn't paying attention or hasn't caught up this morning,

the Detroit Red Wings came back again forced over time with a goal by David Perron with five seconds left seemed like they were they were you know going to stay alive Philly doesn't get the memo polls at school against Washington

because they needed to win in regulation to still have a chance Washington scores Detroit's eliminated even though they did end up winning in the shootout I think almost simultaneous almost almost Simultaneously.

Seconds apart. It was kind of, it was almost the hockey equivalent. Remember that crazy baseball, uh, final day like a few years ago where there were two games going on at the same time that, that swung the playoffs? It was sort of like that because, so, yeah, Detroit, if they win and Washington loses, Detroit makes the playoffs. Right. Right. So when they're down a goal, I mean, they're, they're done unless they score. And they pull it out.

They have a face off with seven seconds left, something like that. They score the miracle goal. I'm sure their fans are absolutely losing it. And it lasts seconds. Seconds. Before you flip the channel, Philadelphia pulls their goalie and gets scored on. What game were you flip? What was the remote situation for you last night?

Were you flipping back and forth? I actually miss the Detroit goal. I was focused on Philly Washington. I wasn't mentally I was I was thinking of that as the game to decide it and and I was sort of had Detroit as an afterthought. But it then when, you know, we saw the clip that it was five seconds left. It's like, holy smokes. And then bang right away. So I've got I've got two things on this.

First of all, stop me if you feel like this is inappropriate. But can I twist the knife on Detroit fans just a little extra bit here? That's the point. That's what this is all about. I've gotten to an argument with someone last night about it. Yes. So here's the thing. We understand Detroit.

Detroit's scenario is win the game. Washington loses in any way. Detroit is in the playoffs. They tie that game. Now they're going overtime. They can have a chance to win. Philadelphia's scenario, Washington is win and you're in. Philadelphia's scenario is they have to beat Washington in regulation and Detroit has to lose.

So as soon as Detroit's. scores the goal to tie it with five seconds, which basically guarantees them a point. Philadelphia is essentially out. But they don't, John Tortorale, it doesn't know that yet. He pulls the goal,

a Washington immediately scores. And that's what puts Washington in the playoffs. Which means, if that Detroit goal had happened one minute earlier in real time, I don't mean a minute earlier in the game. I mean,

the pregame ceremony in Montreal takes, one minute less. The anthems go a bit faster. The Timbitts game at intermission, whatever, they get the kids off the ice quicker. It's a minute sooner in real time. Detroit scores a five seconds left.

It is possible. John Tortorella, seeing that, knowing that Detroit has got the point, he now knows his team is out of the playoffs. There's no longer a reason for him to pull his goal in regulation. Maybe he still does,

but maybe he doesn't. I don't, I don't think he does. In which case, that game probably goes to overtime. Washington can still win that game and make the playoffs. But now, if Washington does not win that game, they miss the playoffs. Detroit makes the playoffs. And Detroit ends up making the playoffs based on one minute in real time.

Not necessarily. You can't say it for sure. But, oh, man, if I'm a Detroit fan, I'm already a little bit cranky today. probably just ruined your day. I'll tell you the other thing that I learned is that apparently we as a hockey watching society are way too easy to impress when it comes to pulling the goalie. I do not understand why the flyers pulling their goalie in regulation was viewed as one of the great strategic moves of all time. And one of the craziest, like people were are so excited about this.

It was just, it was absolutely wild. Like, Sean, did you, I'm not imagining this, right? Like, there were people, even during the day leading up to yesterday's games, who were so excited at the possibility that, oh my, if it, if it's tied in regulation, they're going to pull the goaltender in regulation. And it's like, yeah, we, that's, that's what teams do when they need to score one more goal.

Like, we've had this for a hundred years. I get that it's typically. not in a tie game because they needed the regulation win as the, as the tiebreaker. But were we a little too impressed with all that? Like I saw people in my feed were like counting down. Like it's going to happen. This is so wild.

And I was just sitting there like, yeah, man, this, it happens like five times a night in the NHL. Yeah, that's what happens when teams are trying to win games in regulation. Like, that's just sort of,

if you need one more goal in regulation, you pull your goal late in the game. I did think it was a little strange that he did. did it with three minutes left. Like, to me, there, it might have been a variable. There shouldn't have been any difference between that. Like, it was just like your, it was exactly the same as being a goal behind in a regular game. Right.

And so three minutes was maybe a little early. And as it turned out for Detroit, it was very early. I tried to, uh, I tried to see if there was any kind of like relationship between Derek alone and John Torto, like some way to like, where they could have, they could have picked up like the bad phone and made the call and be like, no, no, don't do it. It's not going to help like in, in the five second interval that came between the two goals. But that's, that's not the way. So, so close. You know what I learned? Last night, I learned what the record for shots in a period is. it's 33 I was totally

I don't even know what you're talking about how about this so okay well let me let me clue you in the record for shots in a period and this dates back to the 60s when the NHL started actually tracking this the Tampa Bay Lightning had 33 shots in a period

against the Chicago Blackhawks six years ago the reason I know this is because Last night in what was supposed to be their big playoff tune up game, the Toronto Maple Leafs gave up 32 shots is how it was reported. I think they may have nudged it down to 31. They gave up 31 shots to the Florida Panthers in one period last night.

The Maple Leafs, a team that is about to go into the playoff that has spent all year being like, can we please figure out how to play playoff style defense, went up against who we thought was going to be their first round matchup and proceeded to give up 31 or 32. I'm not even sure what it wound up being. But even 31 would be the fourth most shots ever allowed in a single period. How much of that was a direct result of them trying to force feed Austin Matthews and get on goal 70?

It might have been that. The other thing was they were short-handed, like the entire period. but you have to expect that because, Sean, if you don't call, if the rest start calling penalties on the Panthers too, Paul Maurice might hold his fingers up again. And then that's, I mean, then what do you do? I mean, you can't have that. So, um, you know,

the most fearsome sight in an NHL game. Paul Maurice holds up his magic fingers. That's it. That's it for you as a rep. You got to be like, oh, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I learned, uh, I learned that the Leafs are ready to go for the playoffs.

I think like after that period, they were in the dressing room. They're like, uh, ruins are looking pretty good. Actually, we're fine. We're fine with this. I think Joseph Wall was like, uh, hey guys. I got, I got an idea. Maybe I get we're all trying to get Austin the 70th goal, but maybe like some of you come back in the defense's own. Help, please.

Instead of all five of you, like at the blue line yelling for me to pass it up when I get it. we've had good luck with Frankie these last couple weeks. He's been at relevant games. He was in the house for Red Wings' habs last night. So he's coming up next. We can maybe ask him

see if there is anything that could have been done pregame or weird stops in play that could have bought the flyers, the extra 90 seconds that they needed to stay alive. All right, Frankie's in the building. TSN 1050, TSN TV.

he was in the house last night, weren't you, buddy? What was that? What was the vibe like for the, just overall, but also specifically the, the Paran goal with five seconds left? I mean, that was crazy. That was, I mean, before you even get to that, like we've been calling some Habs games this year.

Not a lot of those games have a lot of juice, but even just going to the rink that afternoon, like we kind of knew this one was going to have a little, there was a little extra. And so, you know, we were expecting to have some kind of a, dramatic game. We weren't expecting it to be that dramatic with three seconds left, David Perron tying it up. But like leading up to that, Montreal had iced the puck and they had their fourth line stuck on the ice. Detroit put their first line out. They blocked a couple shots. Primo made a

couple saves. They ended up weathering that storm. And with seven seconds left, it's the final face off. And sure enough, Peron scores. And we are going nuts in the booth. Like we couldn't believe it. If you find the call on Twitter, we're going crazy. And Kenny Daniels and Mickey Redmond are in the booth next to us, and they're going crazy as well. And we didn't couldn't, I haven't heard the RDS call with Pierre Houd and Mark the knee, but I'm sure it was, I'm sure it was awesome. Like all three of our booths were going crazy.

And then, so it's funny on the broadcast, now it goes to overtime. And we get the update that Philly has pulled their goalie and Washington has scored into the empty net. And Brian Moodrick, our play-by-play guy, goes to me, like, would the players on the bench know? Like, would they know that that has just happened? And I said, well, the video coach for sure would call it into the head coach or the assistant coach. Now, you're literally about to step foot onto the ice in overtime. Does the head coach convey that message or does he just tell his player, just play?

And then I started looking around to see if there was an out-of-town scoreboard, like in the ring. in the arena. And I couldn't find one. So they play the overtime. They go to the shootout. Patrick Kane wins it. And then the reaction from the Red Wings players was so muted and so subdued as they get off the bench. So I turned to Moodrick on the broadcast. That should tell you everything you need to know. Like someone told them exactly what had happened. And literally it was like two minutes in real time after it happened. It was it was so crazy to witness that and be a part of that. Yeah. We were talking in the first segment about how literally, that minute could have made the difference between Detroit making the playoffs or not.

Is there any truth to the rumor that you were a minute late getting to the game last night and they held it up? No, but you know what happened? You could be there on time. I'll tell you where you could have made up that minute. Jake Evans. Turn it off Detroit fans. Oh my God. If you're a Detroit fan, you do not want to hear this, but is the truth. Jake Evans clears the puck out of his own zone. Okay. And it gets deflected by a Red Wings player, but the linesman calls it icing. So the icing gets called and then the referees and linesmen congregate at center ice. They decide to take that face off to center ice. Meanwhile, it never should have been an icing. The play should have been going. And we would have been way further down the road in that situation

never would have happened. That is your one minute. It is not your pregame ceremony. It's not the ceremony before the ceremony. It's right there. And it's in the last minute of the game. And wow, like that was, I mean, if you're a Red Wings fan, listen, your team, the team put themselves in that situation. Like that, you know, if you go back, I think it was February 28th, they were in a playoff spot by about eight points. You know, they had just won six in a row. They ended up losing seven in a row after that. They went four in 10 without Larkin in the lineup. Like in the first 25 games of the year, they had a 640 winning percentage. So, you know, they have no one to blame but themselves. But man, that minute on that botched icing call could have made all the difference. And you don't

want to pin it on officials. Like that was, you know, I guess it depends who you are. But that, that's the one, that's where that minute could have been made up, those two minutes. I feel like just the way stuff is shaking out in the east. And this is true for like every team. I like what, it's true for every team. It's true for every fan base. It's true for anybody who covers any of these teams. You go back through the schedule and you're like, there's a point. There's a point. There's a point. I saw someone make this point about the penguins a couple days ago who, you know, are obviously out as well. They got no points

against the ducks in a game when they had a five on three with two minutes left to play in a tie. And then they blew a two-gole lead against Calgary and then they blew a four-o lead against Colorado. Like there's all these like signposts on the schedule that these teams have passed up on their way to this like crushing failure, right? But the thing is every team has them.

that's that's the I think that's like the mitigating like nobody's special like you can go back during an 82 game you know schedule and find like here's here's a point there's a point whatever but it's human nature to go back and in kind of do that do that excavation too all in Detroit they lost to the coyotes twice you know like the think about that and and like the only team that I can think of that wouldn't have been a victim of that is probably Boston last year and they set the record for the most regular season wins in a regular season season. So I mean, like, every team, every team is going to have those, but you like, like, it's just one of those things where you have to take care of your own backyard. And if you're in a

situation where you're depending on another team, like that's, that's your own doing at the end of the day. That's, that's your own doing. And I thought James Reimer battled really hard. He gave them a chance. You know, it's just that's, that's the situation they were in and ultimately it didn't work out for them. And one more, I mean, now, now that we've kicked Red Wing fans, they're down and as they're down and where, you know, here's one more. They didn't do anything at the deadline. Steve Eiserman stood Pat at the trade deadline with a team

that was in the middle of the playoff race and they end up missing the playoffs by one point. Yeah. I talk to Max. I know he's golden in Detroit, but I, like, I feel like I was talking to Max about that. A lot of covers the Red Wings like pretty consistently around the deadline. And it was like, you guys, you sure?

Like there, like, there isn't something he should do. And Max was in the camp of like, well, you know, like they're, they're not that good, basically. And they're capped out in certain spots and, you know, blah, blah. I'm like, yeah, really? There's like, there's nothing to do where, you know, you add a, you add some kind of forward or, or move or whatever, create some space. move out Justin Hall if that's what you want to try to try to matchups like matchups are a big deal for them like they they lose a lot of matchups especially when Raymond and Larkin play together so like when when Larkin came back they had

been going on on the road they were separating them at home they were putting them together because they would just lose too many matchups on the road and you know in the last you know last few games you obviously have them together because you feel like it gives you the best chance to win it was interesting watching Detroit this season from afar, obviously. But, you know, a lot of promising young players, and over the past two summers, Steve Eiserman has tried to insulate them

with veteran guys, whether it's been Andrew Copp or Ben Chirot or, you know, that Kristen Fisher was brought in, David Perron. Like, I'm sure I'm missing guys. But, you know, there was Shane Gostisbear was actually a really good ad for them. Jeff Petrie, maybe not as much. But regardless, as much as they were veteran players,

those were the guys making a lot of the, young player mistakes. And that was, that's what was really weird about watching this team. And I wonder what the, you know, I wonder what the exit meeting situation is like from Iserman on down after he kind of watches the tape and watches that back. Because, you know, when, when you have all those guys that are experienced and have been around a lot, like, you expect them to kind of lead the way. And, you know, you'll live with some of the young players mistakes from the young players but you don't really account for it happening from the veteran guys and and that'll be it'll be interesting to see how that kind of shakes out when you see vets make mistakes like that also guys who are like not to

they're their character guys right there's they're they're they're they're they're um like they're whatever plug air quotes playoff hockey guys you bring an andrew cop because you're like this guy's that this guy adds something you know add something down the middle and you bring in j t confer and in and guys like that because they've won and whatever when you see them make that mistake it or make those kind of mistakes consistently like how much of that falls on coaching and how much of that falls on the player because it because the math is different right if you're talking about derrick alone trying to deal with younger guys yeah you'd imagine he could rely on Andrew copp and Ben Chirot to, you know,

handle their own business, but it doesn't seem like that was the case. That's what I'm curious about. Like, and I think that's what I'm curious about because ultimately, yes, the players should know better. It's also up to whoever's in charge to make sure that they play a certain kind of system and hold each other accountable to playing a certain way. And that's where,

that's where I wonder, you know, where the meetings kind of go this summer within that group just because like all those guys individually in, separate vacuums have looked really good. Like Petrie and Chirot were a big part of the Montreal Canadiens going to the Stanley Cup final. It wasn't too long ago.

Like you mentioned JT. Comfer won a Stanley Cup. Andrew Cop, really good defensive player. David Perron has been a part of a lot of very good teams. So if you're Stevie Y and you're assembling that group, you know, you sit there and you're like, okay, I think I have the right guys who can help insulate a young group and, you know, we'll soften the blow, I guess. but that wasn't the case. That wasn't the case with Detroit.

And the other thing is like it never felt like they could stop the bleeding once it started happening. And when Dylan Larkin was out, like that was huge. That was that was massive. And, you know, I think the some of the narrative around Larkin has been, you know, if the Red Wings were a really good team and they were going to compete, Larkin was probably a really good second line center, maybe not a first line center. Like make no mistake about it.

Larkin is a first line center. I was going to ask, I was going to ask what this last month has done to your opinion of Dylan Larkin. Oh, I think the world of Dylan Larkin. I really do. Like, I just think, like, I don't know if underrated is the right word, but maybe underappreciated on like a national level here around the league. Like, he's not Austin Matthews. He's not McDavid, whatever you want to call it. But he's in that next tier of players and especially centermen.

I just, they were, they were a totally different team without Dylan Larkin in the lineup. So he's, he's very, very valuable to them. So do we think there's a coaching change coming in Detroit? Oh, man. I don't know. I've heard that. I don't think so. I don't think so.

But like, I'm not, like, I'm not an insider, you know, that's like a, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's more there. And you know what? Like, there's, there's, there's, obviously, Granato got fired. There's, there's, there's probably going to be. more coaching changes. It's like, you know, you have to find someone now if you make that. And maybe you've laid some groundwork this season.

And I don't know, maybe it just is a conversation about how things do need to be a little bit different. But I'm not, I'm not sold on that. Or like, what about trying to find a way to add someone behind Dylan Larkin so the team doesn't completely collapse if he misses 10 games?

Like that, I, it's their issues to me still seem, more like roster construction than anything because I got to say I have all the time the world for Steve Eisenman as a as a front office guy as a GM but if it was anybody else in any other market the heat on the GM for what's happened the last few years in Detroit would be enormous and it feels like I won't say there's none of it because every time I say that I have some Detroit fans show up and say like no no There's a few of us who are getting a little ticked off here. But I mean, it's Steve Heiser. What are you going to do? Like you can't, it's just like when Joe Sackett was in Colorado, they, you know,

they weren't going to be screaming for a guy to lose his job or something. But like I said, quiet deadline. Is this the right coach? If he doesn't, if he doesn't make a coaching change, okay. So it's even more patience from the never ending well of patience that this Eisenman rebuild has. Boy, I don't know. And maybe it's the right approach.

Maybe we're, we don't have a. enough patience for this in every other market with every other guy. But, well, the thing about the centerman to play behind Larkin, I would imagine they think that's going to be Marco Casper, who's, he's only 20 years old. He played in the American hockey. Like, they got a pretty good year, like 35 points in 68 games. But he's, you know, he's not quite there yet as far as contributing on a team that's, that's pushing to make the playoffs.

It is, you know what? I think it's all about expectations. and when when you have your fan base bought into a young rebuilding group, I think that's great. I think you've kind of got everyone bought in on patience. And then when you start signing veteran guys, now you turn the clock ahead a little bit more. And people start to expect a little bit more because now you say, oh, we're actually not going to be that patient. We're actually not waiting. Like it's giddy up and go time.

Like we're trying to make something of it. And look at the signings that they've made over the last. two years. Like, it hasn't necessarily been like young guys. It's been veteran guys. So, you know, as much as they were trying to push this, this young group ahead, they kind of made the signal. It's like, no, we're, we're going to make the playoffs now. And, you know, these are the guys that we think can do it. And that's when, you know, to your point, DGB, it's like, that's when people start to get a little anxious. And that's when people start to maybe turn on you and say, like, well, well, why did you do that? Like, why did you push the clock ahead when, you know, we had this thing

go on with all the young guys. So Lucas Raymond is the leading score. He's 21 years old. The next seven guys on their list are 26 and older. Like that's not old old. That's part of a young team anymore. This isn't part of the problem too. I think,

I think they have it. They had a choice where it's like, do we find, do we add guys in the larkin age bracket, right? In that 27 to 29 or 30 group? Or do we make him the old dude on the team when, whenever that whenever they're,

you keep the time frame as is. You say we're going to wait another year or two. Dylan Larkin's going to be 28 or 29. He's going to be the oldest player on this team. And he's going to, he'll still be in his primaries theoretically. But that next wave is going to make up the bulk of the roster. Right.

And that's not what they did. Now they have J.D. Confu's 29 and signed for forever. Andrew Cop, 29 signed for forever. They're paying those guys $11 million. basically between the two of them, and neither of them is a 2C, and now they're kind of capped out. Like, the roster construction is an issue.

It's not like it's unsolvable or anything, but they need another dude down the middle that has more skill than what they've got there right now. For sure. And call a spade a spade, because some of the drafting that has been done, as much as they have these good young pieces like Raymond, like Simon Edvenson, like some of the drafting that's been done there, and some of this was prior to Steve Eisenman. getting there has not been good. And they've missed on a lot of high picks. And I'm thinking of Phillips Adina, among others that were picked prior to Stevie getting there. So, you know, you have to

keep that in mind as well. But, you know, I'm just kind of looking now at my sheet from last night because I called the game. It's like, you know, Stevie brought in, I think he brought in Robbie Fabry, who like, like, I like Fabry as a player. I think Daniel Sprong has had 18 goals this season. Like, you know, that was a low cost kind of $2 million guy pickup that worked. well for him. You know, and then you go down the list. I thought Shane Gostisbeer had a monster year for them. Like, that's a guy on a one-year ticket that came in and did a really nice job.

And then, you know, Patrick Kane, like, point per game player. Like, you know, he was, he was a guy coming off hip resurfacing surgery was basically as expected, maybe a little bit more. He gave you, he gave you full value. And, you know, the Alex DeBrinke, basically has the exact same season that he had last year in Ottawa, which. I think that is a little bit of a, I don't want to say a red flag, but probably makes me pump the brakes a little bit on the De Brinket hype train just based on the fact that, you know,

I think a lot of people were expecting him to go to Detroit and get back to that 35, you know, 40 goal pace. It's like this guy had one more assist in Detroit than he did last year in Ottawa. And it didn't sound like he appreciated playing in Ottawa very much. And he was losing power play time to Robbie Fabri down the stretch too. Right. If that's going on, something, something went wrong. That's actually, that's a good point that you make, because that's one thing, and I forgot to mention this, like, the kind of two equal power play units that Detroit has been doing, I hate that. Just put your best five players over the boards, keep them on the ice for a minute 15, minute 25, and let them try and figure it out.

Like, no one, no one is dying to see an equal power play platoon and have PP2 out there. You know, it was funny. Like last night, last night, Brian Moodrick, Montreal finally gets their first power play. And they had gone three games out of their last four without a power play. And so we go, oh, we'll get a chance to see the Montreal Canadiens power play. And the first unit steps on over the boards. And it's the same five that have always been there. And then he goes, yeah, I'm really excited to see the, uh, the second power play unit for Montreal. And I looked at them and I said, that is the first time anyone has uttered those words this season. the entire setup is like when does that work for a protracted amount of time like when has a good NHL team been like yeah we're going to do an even split on our on our power play it doesn't it doesn't happen so imagine being those meetings where you're like okay we have to convince

ourselves that this is the way to go even though there's like no precedent of it happening over the last however many years in the NHL like good luck no best five players over the boards let them have the lion's share of the reps because like it's like anything else you put you put enough reps together you put those same guys over again and again and again at some point it's got to click and if you get enough runway and you're like okay this literally this really is not working then you can change things up but the the two even power play units is such a it's such an odd look and it's not like you're going to catch a matchup on the penalty kill because you know there's there's four to six forwards that penalty kill on every team.

And there's not a, there's not a drastic drop off between, and then there's four defensemen who penalty kill. And there's not a drastic drop off between those guys either. So it's, you're not catching any, any kind of one matchups there. And, you know, I think power plays now are going to be a very interesting topic of conversation come playoff time. And there's going to be a few teams that it needs to be their X factor. One of those teams is the Toronto Maple Leafs.

One of those teams is the Edmonton Oilers. And like, I don't know if you guys have talked about this much, but it seems like the standard for cross-checks that we were seeing earlier on in the season has diminished quite a bit. Like they're letting them play a little bit more. They're letting them get away with a little bit more. And, you know, I'm just, I'm not sure how many power plays we're going to see come playoff time. And, you know, Mike Johnson always reminds me of this is that the numbers would actually tell us that there are more power plays in the playoffs than they are in the regular. season. But because you're playing playoff hockey, you're doing things out of desperation and urgency that you wouldn't normally do in the regular season. So you can call way more. It's just you choose

not to call, you know, a substantial amount more. Maybe it is marginal. But that's, that's going to be interesting, especially for Toronto and Edmonton. That's always a crazy stat that comes up because every year, playoffs start, every fan complains about how they're not calling anything and then you see the stat about well actually they call more and you're right it's part of it it's it's thunderdome out there and you can call something on every single play also part of it is and i don't know if this is intentional but i think it is the refs wait till like the game the one game in the series it's six to one and then they call penalties non-stop that's a great point nudged the total up right and then at the end they're like look we called a bunch of power plays now

we hit our we hit our quota in game four and then And you didn't call it anything. Games 5 through 7, there's nothing that's called. You know what it is? You know what it is? If you live in Toronto, if you're listening to this and you live in Toronto and you've driven on the 401, there's some D-bag in a Honda Civic that does 160 weaving in and out. Cops never get that guy.

But you're driving 60 on a three-lane road. And there, sure enough, his old cop with the radar gun out and he got, you know, Johnny average guy going 71 on his way to work. Like, that's exactly what it is. Yep. Let's, all right, we need to talk about Austin Matthews. We're contractually obligated to talk more about the leaves on this pot. Have you ever played in a situation or found yourself in a situation like the one that the leaves are in right now, the rest of the leaves are in right now, where it's very obvious that they're trying to get this dude to a nice, a nice round number.

Have you ever been in a situation where it's like, okay, we need to, we need to feed dude X because we want him to hit, you know, however many amount of. goals because it's wild to watch and we've seen it for two straight games now. I think when I was with the Marleys, Jeremy Brackle, who was a young prospect at the time, he was trying to win the scoring race and someone put it out of touch, I think, in the last weekend of the regular season. Like he would have had to had a big night and he obviously, he didn't end up getting it. And then in my junior days, playing for the Sudbury Wolves, this is a deep cut. Michael Scarbosa, who currently plays for the playoffbound Washington Capital,

won the OHL scoring title. And so we were a part of that trying to pad his stats down the stretch. And I think he was the last Wolf, last Sudbury Wolf to win the scoring title since Mike Folino at the time, which I think anyways, I could be wrong. But yeah, so those are the two kind of point chasing situations I've been a part of in my career. And is it like, because as of right now and even as we're recording this, I don't, we don't know for sure whether Matthews is even going to play tonight, although it sounds

and last night, like, they're going to run the same lineup. Like, where are you at as a player? Are you sitting there like, yeah, give us another shot. We got to get this guy to the number. Is there any chance that anyone in that room is like, holy smokes, guys, like, we've got the playoffs coming up. Can we not be chasing individual achievements here? Or is there, is it just everybody wants to get it for the guy who's chasing it?

No, you want your teammates to get those kinds of things. You do. And, you know, I thought it was a little silly. like earlier in the week. It's Wednesday today. I think it's Wednesday. Earlier in the week, the Leifes have two games left. And, you know, a lot of the talk became, you know, Matthews is at 69 goals.

Should he sit these last two regular season games? And I'm like, well, Matthews could have got hurt in game five, game 55, game 65, game 82, like, and he's not banged up. He's not hurt. He's playing the best hockey of his career. He has a chance to do something that hasn't been done in, you know, 30 plus years. of course he's going to go. Like he's going to play.

And it's the right thing to do. I think the players on the ice want to get him there. You don't want to lose sight of the fact, though, that the Leafs need to button up how they're playing defensively going into the playoffs because it hasn't been good enough. Their special teams also, for the most part, the last little while has not been good enough. Like there are, I would say that the chase for 70 for Austin Matthews

is not necessarily a distraction for the players in the room, but it is a little bit of a distraction for the audience watching, where now we've kind of forgotten about some of these things that we may be talking about as headline news when it comes to the Leafs in the playoffs and coming down the stretch here, and it's not. So, you know, we'll obviously, you know, we'll be keeping an eye on the game tonight and, you know,

how much Matthews plays. Like I was looking earlier, it sounds like Tompkins is expected to play. So, you know, I just think, like, Matthews, if he does play, Matthews has chewed up these kinds of goaltenders over the course of his career. As much as he's chewed up the, you know, the really good goalies too. But like, I could see Matthews getting one early and playing 14 minutes tonight. And the other thing, it's like Tampa knows where they're going to.

Like, they're, you know, they're basically all set to play Florida. the days of Corey Perry and Patrick Maroon and, you know, take your pick of all the bigger kind of burlier guys that have played on that team. They're not there. It is a little bit of a different Tampa Bay team. So I wouldn't expect there to be a lot of animosity in a game like tonight, but you never know. I just think it's one of those things where both teams are going to go out.

They're going to play. Matthews is going to have opportunities to score. And I wouldn't put it past him that he gets his 70th tonight. And we should say Nikita Kutrov also chasing 100 assists tonight. So, I mean, it's for a meaningless game. There's a lot going on. It's cut a deal night. Are you, you're familiar with this?

Cut a deal? I'm not familiar with like, I've never heard it, but that I immediately feel like I know what you're talking about. You know, just when you say it, you know exactly what I'm talking about. It's like a saying amongst the players, right? And like I was telling this story to Carlo Koliakabon, Aaron Kournick this morning. on TSN 1050. And, you know, one year I was actually playing at the arena in Glendale, playing against the coyotes. And I look across the red line.

I'm stick handling and warm up. And I see an old teammate of mine, Brad Richardson. We had played together the year previous in Vancouver. Little head nod, little smile, you know, go about our business. And then sure enough, my good buddy, Dionne Funnuff, who I think the world of, skates right behind me. And in jest, he goes, quit cutting deals out there. Let's go.

You know, like cut and deal is like, hey, I won't hit you too hard. You won't hit me too hard. We'll just, you know, we'll go about our business, right? Like this, this night tonight has the makings of a, you know, let's cut a deal kind of night. The all-time ultimate for that was the Michael Strayhan sacking Brett Favreve. Oh, he slid directly into him. But we just, I don't want to, let's not bury the lead here. I didn't know Frank did impressions.

I was about to say, we need to. Dionne Finoff. Dionne Funuff is now a recurring character on the show. We're going to have a saying. Dionne Funnuf reacts to whatever's going on. Yeah, the first day, I don't, maybe he knew I was from Toronto or maybe he didn't. But the first day I got to the practice facility and met him, he goes to me, you're a young guy. You're going to love it here.

I'm actually from here. Yeah. Like, what's my, what's my name actually? Yeah. This is great. He's, uh, oh,

yeah, he's a beauty. Frank, before we let you split, last one, um, of the eight playoff matchups, because it seems like we're,

we're locked into everything now. Is there one that like, catches your eye particularly? We'll, we'll do, we'll do one and then leave. Um, it's hard to, like,

I don't know what's going to happen tonight or, or tomorrow as well with the games, like how the Edmonton series is going to shake out. Like, it could be Vegas. It could be L.A., I guess at this point. Um,

that one is very interesting. to me. I think the Battle of Florida is going to be awesome. Like, I am pumped for the Battle of Florida. And then I guess Winnipeg, Colorado, like Winnipeg, Colorado has the makings of can Winnipeg put their big boy pants on come playoff time and beat a really good team that has a winning pedigree. Like, they, they have the personnel to do it because their goaltender is probably going to win the Vesna this year. They made, like, they made the big splashes at the deadline this year. That is what's different in Winnipeg compared to years past, where it was a depth player here. And, you know, we really like our group internally, yada, yada, yada.

It's like, no, we got Monaghan, we got Topholi. They bolstered the blue line. And Colorado is not playing well right now. Georgiev doesn't seem like he's in a good place. There's a little bit of a goaltender issue there. Like, I just think Colorado was ripe for the taking. And it's time for the Winnipeg Jets to put on their big boy pants and actually take it come playoff time. I don't know if you guys saw it, but Don put out his preview just, uh, just this morning.

51 49 are the odds on that Winnipeg, Colorado. And a lot of that's because of Yorgiev, because I feel like over the last couple years, it started with Kemper during the Aves Cup run. We've like got it in our heads that they can get by with like mediocre goaltending. It's not true. Like Kemper was better than anybody realized in the moment. And even Yorgia for the last couple years has been, has been fine. What they've gotten from him this season, what they've gotten from him in the last month,

is way, way, below the line. It's not good enough. If he's going out there and letting in one or two bad goals a night, which he has done more often than not basically going back for 15 games.

Now, that series is going to be interesting. Now, we can easily turn around and be fine, and then it's over and five or whatever, but it's closer than. He could be this year's Aiden Hill and then, yeah.

It's just, it's hard to imagine you turn it on, like just flip a switch like that. But as far as the teams go, it's going to be, you know, Winnipeg with their kind of stifling, stingy defensive structure versus, you know, how does that, how does that go up against the high-flying, high-octane, high-offense-powered McKinnon and Rantan and McCar and company? So I think that's going to be, that's going to be really interesting to watch those two contrasting styles go head to head. Lock it in.

All right, buddy. Have a good week. We'll talk you next Wednesday. Awesome. Thanks, guys. We'll see you. welcome back for our third segment we've got a caller from the Detroit metro area Craig C is on the line how you doing buddy hey guys first time long time I just want to say I'm calling in

I think everybody in Detroit should be fired what happened last night is an abomination to the branch go hey guys I can tell you people in Detroit are upset right now and that's not why I'm joining your show I'm not sure why I'm joining your show but people are We talked about that. Okay, so we talked about, like, what's, what is the level? Because I'm under the impression that Iserman is close to untouchable, but maybe not quite there. Oh, yeah? He's not untouchable from the fans.

So I, I, look, this is a guy that was, you know, knighted and, and the perfect everything when he came back to Detroit. And based on, you know, look, it's, it's the, you know, sports talk radio, the commenters, but the Twitter, you see in Detroit, Isman trending and people are worked up and it's this mix between people saying, hey, did you see the roster he inherited? How long do you think this takes? And people saying,

hey, five years, no playoffs. You know, what gives? Like, do we trust in the Iser plan anymore? I don't know which side do you guys are on on this one? People are upset though in a way that I wasn't sure was possible with Isamon, to be honest. I thought he would just be protected from this somehow. Yeah, I'm not on a side, but it's so much as, as I said earlier, anyone else in any other market does not get this level of patience.

And maybe he's getting the right level and we're too quick on everybody else. But I got to be on it. Like if I'm a Detroit fan, I'm sitting there going like Seattle's already been in and out of the playoffs and they had no team three years ago. And we're doing a slow but sure rebuild with the emphasis on the slow. Now, I will say, let me just say one thing, only because I know every Detroit fan is screaming it every time we talk about it. Terrible lottery line. That is a big part of it.

You're picking fourth, fifth, sixth, even in your worst years. Okay, I'll give them that. But other than that, thanks. They got a number one defenseman out of that, out of the whole thing. Like, like, Merth Ciders. Because it was a great pick. Look, I don't want to come in and defend Eisenman, but. Yes, you do.

Yes, you do. I want to come in into a noted. Noted management shill, Craig Custins. You wrote a book about the thing. It's coming out on that. Huge management skill. Look, like this is one of those things where you say, hey, I want to acknowledge this, this fact, but move on and like in the argue the other side. acknowledging the fact that this team did a massive rebuild without getting a top pick and still walked away with looks to be a star and Lucas Raymond. and who over the last couple weeks has been unreal, like clutch shots, and read Max Boltman on that. And Mort Sider, who is a legit number one, and it looks like they have two, like, you know, two super, not superstar, but stud defensemen on that blue line moving forward. To do all of that without, like, it could have been way worse.

If they miss on those picks, and, and also, like, I remember, I mean, we were all there when Sider got picked and I'm not, like, trying to rehash, but like, he was as shocked as anybody. like that was a that was a gutsy pick and um i remember the raymond draft we're sitting here going nobody knows anything about any of these players because it was you know quarantine or whatever and so like those are those were franchise defining picks and i don't think like that's that outweighs them making the playoffs like i'd be if if they didn't have anything to show for the rebuild i would be yeah definitely he gets he gets credit he gets credit for that he gets credit for that

and he also gets dinged significantly for spending $15 million a year on Andrew Cobb and JT. Comfer and Ben Chirot. Like the draft picks have been good. He's been good around the margins. He's good at finding guys like Robbie Fabry and cheaper dudes who are extremely capable of contributing. But the big ticket items have been swings and misses for him so far. Right. And it can't be viewed as anything but. So that's to me is the big.

issue moving forward is that they have a lot of cap tied up in guys who haven't performed for Detroit at least so I don't and that's and that's where you can hit the Detroit who have they performed for a shot would you do anything I don't like JT conference like whatever he he was a he was a depth guy for Colorado and like it's fine like I'm not trying I'm not trying to knock these guys but that's like a classic to me that's like a classic management pitfall is when you take is you find guys like that and you overpay all of them by a million dollars or whatever. And you give them a year or two that you shouldn't and you give them a million or two that that you shouldn't.

And then the end result is like, oh, we don't have easy cap space to improve. It's a problem. I also think part of developing young talent is surrounding themselves with the right kind of players. And, you know, without having these kind of conversations with Detroit front office staff, I'm sure that was the thought process when you bring in the three specifically. And so I'm not saying they're the reason, you know, charott's the reason ciders good or whatever, but it certainly helps to have players of that caliber with that kind of character who play

the game the way that that trio plays, helping develop your young talent. So like we've seen a million of these rebuilds go wrong because it's the youngers running the ship and they have no guidance. They don't know how to win. They don't know how to be pros. And I think part of a rebuild is surrounding people, young players with that kind of character. So if they don't make the playoffs next year and if they don't make the right moves

in the summer, I think this is a massive summer for this franchise. It's all valid. And it's certainly valid to question Steve Eisenman. I don't think he's untouchable. But I think based on the hand this franchise, franchise was dealt, the picks where they were, the picks that have landed, and what seems to be coming still, I don't know, I'm not like sounding the alarms yet.

Oh, you love Steve Eisenman. I can just say it. Oh, my gosh. Okay. We're going back to the comments. Craig, I know you don't listen to the show or watch in the child games anymore, but we brought back the only good segment on the show a couple weeks ago because people worked on that thing.

That makes me. That warms my heart. It's great. It's your lasting legacy. When it's all over for you, you can say that you're, you're a part of people who decided to read podcast comments on the third, on the third segment. Is that where that came from? You were the one who invented it. That's cool. I certainly didn't invent it, but I'll take credit for it. Invented it. Yep, that's it. I invented commenting on content.

we'll take some questions from the app. You can go and click around a bunch until you find the episode and the copies of it. It's easy. Easy and fun. Super. Corey E's the first one.

Is Arizona shipping the Salt Lake a sign of how ineffective Donald Fair was is the head of the NHLPA? It feels like Marty Walsh and the players telling the league enough with their BS, doesn't it? I think it's more of a sign of how ineffective of Alex Marula was as the owner of a major professional sports team.

Like, it was, they hit the, they hit the Rubicon there. I do think the, the PA is a big piece of this. And that, it something did change.

Now, whether that was Donald Fair pushing back or not, or whether it just, it was a tipping point or, you know, what have you. But yeah,

that is part of it. When Marty Walsh started to hammering away. Yeah. He had the big, he had the big thing to complain about. He could say like, all right, we're playing, our guys are playing in a 4,500 seat college rink. And they're going to maybe be there for three more years or four more years or five more years. That's not going to work.

But he only has that, he only has that axe to grind if, if the situation is in Arizona is as bad as it was, right? If there was, if things bounce their way, if the Tempe Arena deal goes through and whatever, things are different. But they're not. So here we are. Greg, you've covered. I do give him credit, though. He turned the screws. Like Marty definitely did.

He wasn't afraid. So I don't know if it's a, if there's a comp to Don Fear here. You know, I do think it's probably a separate situation. Say what you want about Arizona. Like until like the last couple years, there did seem to be a path out. It seemed like you did have the arena or you had some plan. I don't really realize. But so like, but Marty definitely, it was like, oh, this isn't working.

He clearly like leaned in on it. And it is. I mean, when we're talking about revenue split and one team's selling 4,000 tickets, that's a huge killer. So I think he definitely deserved credit here. And it felt like he set the schedule last year to where we knew where he said stuff to this extent. And you know, we all heard things about the All-Star break. That was like where the, that was where things were moving. Like if something isn't resolved in a meaningful way by the all-star break in 2024,

like, then it might be time, then it might be time to get moving. Now, now here we are. I, it sucks for people in Arizona, but I'm,

I'm glad this is over because I've been in the business for 15 years now. And it's been a constant conversation point. I'm sick. I'm talking about it. Enjoy Salt Lake City. this one is the I pick this one specifically for you Craig because he's a

he's one of your he's one of your all-time favorites Joe Pavelsky we have we are now asking the Joe Pavelsky Hall of Fame question he's getting closer to 500 goals is this from Samu Leff Pavowski's almost at 500 goals almost at 600 assists and almost at 1100

points which are all three are you know, pretty legit milestones on the way to a Hall of Fame career. Does he need to hit those to make the Hall of Fame? Or is the resume, if, if, if Velsky retires in three days and quit and quits on them, but before the, before the first round series is that would be a big story. I feel like that would be, that would be pretty crazy. Yeah, he's like, I've done. I've accomplished everything there is to accomplish.

Yeah, they chill. Was there ever a point with Joe, I've got two questions. questions on this one. And that's a great question. I love it. And thanks for asking it. Um, is, first of all, is he still, is he still, um, not showing up on your guys' show? Like, that's, that's an important look at the stars still. Okay. So that's, so that's, so you have to hit the milestones and you have to at least appear once Joe on the athletic hockey show. So I would say that's, that's, that's, Joe's been good to meet you guys over the course of his career, which is a huge part of the puzzle. Like, he's got, he's got, he's got the rep as being helpful and nice

and cool, which is, which might get a lot of load. He gets really, that's what I was like. There's always a little bit of sandpaper with Joe Pavlsky. The other question I have is, is there ever a point where you felt like he was the best player on the team he was on? I always feel like Joe was always two or three. And like, I don't know if that matters. Yeah, but you know what? Patrick Marlowe's going to kick that door down for him, I think.

That was, I think that was probably, that was probably as close as Pavolski came to being the best player on the team, whenever Thornton and Marlowe had like the decline and kind of started for them. And there was that it was framed as like, is Joe Pavelsky the best player on the sharks right now? But it wasn't done in like a positive way. It was more done as like, hey, is it is it a good thing that Joe Pavelsky is the best player on the sharks? Or should or should it be Joe Thornton and Patrick Marlow and like Logan Cotterch, I guess to a to a less egregious, you know, example.

Interesting. I mean, I'm putting it in because I'm the, I'm the Joe Pavolski, but I, like, when I think about Hall of Fame discussions, that's what I want, like, I want to know about those years where this was the, they were the best at what they did, or they were the best in the team, they carried. And I always felt like Joe

was so great at being, like, supporting the best at what they did in some way. And, like, nobody maximized their talents like Joe Pavowski in the history of the league, you could argue. But, there are guys in the Hall of Fame. Uh-huh. Absolutely.

No sister. I mean, Kevin Lowe was never a top five player on his team. That should be the standard. You should be able to say like, yeah, this guy was, there was a 18 month stretch where he was a top three. Whatever. The standard should be higher for the hockey hall of fame. They're not.

It's a big, it's a big hall. That's the way it is. So based on that standard. Here's the flip side. Here's the flip side is Pavelsky like three years ago, he used to come up because people like him and he's American

and I don't know if you guys are aware of this but American hockey he can be a little bit weird and I was like there's no way he's he's sitting at like 350 goals he's you know he's got 900 points he's not it his career curve of like what he's done

the last two or three years is almost unprecedented in the NHO that he's going to retire presumably at some point soonish and he's going to have had his best seasons at the very end of his career. Like, we've never seen anybody do quite this before. So, you know, he's suddenly made a discussion.

And, you know, as you guys know, recency bias is a real thing. And when it's time to vote and you're sitting there going, yeah, I, you know, I don't have to think back 15 years to remember when this guy had his best years because they were three years ago. That could help them. Plus the stars are going to understand. Well, that's that late charge that gets them there, right? Like, that's what puts them over the top is that this longevity.

like there's if Dino Ciceroly's in like that that's when we stop this argument and it's it's it's a large like you Carybinos in everybody's in you're carbono carbono Cicorelli Marcao like all three of those guys are great players but but when it was like I was like let's let's let's cut the let's cut the Bs here we got one more that I wanted that I wanted to hit and I just lost it on my app because it's because again it's very it's a very normal very normal way to leave comments here i like this from robert s how does the shape of it how does the shape of a season matter is a wings fan if you told me they they would have at least 86 or 90 points in october i would have been happy that they just took another step forward obviously since they're going

to just miss the they're going to miss the playoffs you know it's disappointing but we still exceeded expectations like how like how do you like what do you guys think of adjusting You know, the ultimate for that is the Flyers. Like you look at the standings. Every Flyers fan would look at that in October and be like, sign me up. That's amazing. And yet it's impossible not to feel like it was a huge collapse and a failure down the stretch because they were just so, you know, they had, they were so good for 65, 70 games.

And then it fell apart. And you switch it. You reverse those results. and everybody's, you know, John Turner-Roll is probably coach of the year. I think Max had them at 88 points to start the season. I think that's what his prediction was for the wings. And then they finish with 91, which, you know, I know I just spent whatever 10 minutes dumping on half their roster.

But like, that is a step forward in one way or another. I don't know. They exceeded expectations. Like, that's, that's. So I think when, I think as a fan, you can be upset about how this, went down, but if you're evaluating long-term or the, like, can you take a step back and you're just looking at the charts or whatever and projections, like, it's trending the right way. And look, if it goes Buffalo Sabres or whatever and they go sideways and they take a step back,

because like, I think we all looked at the Sabres last year and said, okay, it's going the right way and they're going to get in. And here we are and the coach is out, sadly, friend of the show. But, you know, then it's a problem. But I think right now as a Red Wings fan, you just, you have. You have to look at the big picture. The Sabre situation is, Sean. The Sabre situation is funny now because everyone's like penciling in or writing in Mark or Lindy

rough to take over that job, which is... Oh, really? I hadn't even heard that. Interesting. I don't... Part of it is because one of my good friends is a Sabres fan. So I'm like more tapped into the brain of the Buffalo sports fan than I ever, than I wanted to be, but that is a real thing.

Like people are calling for Lindy Ruff to return, which is wild because last year it was all about how the Sabres don't have defensive structure and they play too loose on offense and they're scoring too many goals and whatever. And then they almost overcorrected this year with Granato and now he's out. And now they want to return apparently to the high-flying, you know, devil's style, shoot-em-up stuff that got linear fired a couple months ago. It's very interesting.

I suggest that the savers have a goaltender because that has more. You bring in the guy who just got fired for not having a good goaltender to the other team. It does not have a good goaltender. All right, Craig, you got to go. Is there anything you want to say before you leave?

Any plugs? I just want to say, yeah, hit the subscribe button. You guys are just doing great work. All right. Keep it up. All right. That's enough.

I love you all so much. Did, do we not have time to talk about the women's world championships and how that went? Oh, gosh. I would, honestly, but like I told JD hard out at 11. I don't even know what, you know. Shame. Have me on.

We'll go over it. I feel like it went into overtime. I can't remember what happened after that. We got to go. Goodbye. Goodbye, everybody. Oh, now we're, look at JD waving the Canadian flag. He's waving the Canadian flag.

That's fine. We'll get you, we'll get you next time. There's always next year. Always next year. Olympics are coming up. Everything will be fine. Goodbye to both of you who are rubbing in her face. Thank you for listening to the Athletic Hockey Show, folks.

Leave a 5-serrating if that's your thing in a review if you'd like tomorrow. It's Haley, it's Max. It's me. And we're doing playoff previews, I believe, among other stuff. and me and DGB will be back next week also with Frankie, I think. He's back for a third straight week. Is he? Is he?

I don't know. It's in the work. Might be news to him. Getting the thumbs up. All right. He's in. Great.