The Athletic Hockey Show - Remembering Matīss Kivlenieks. Tampa Bay Lightning can be the first team to win the Stanley Cup on home ice since 2015. Adam Fox, 2021 Norris Trophy winner

Episode Date: July 7, 2021

Scott and Pierre welcome Adam Fox, the 2021 Norris Trophy winner to the Two Man Advantage edition of the The Athletic Hockey Show. Fox, the New York Rangers star blue liner talks about his breakout season, Olympic involvement, his defense partner, roommate and friend Ryan Lindgren and what winning the Norris, means to him.Burnside and Lebrun preview game five of the Stanley Cup Final between the Tampa Bay Lightning and Montreal Canadiens and how Tampa has an opportunity to be the first team since 2015 to win the Stanley Cup on home ice.Plus the guys touch on the shocking passing of Columbus Goalie Matīss Kivlenieks, the similarities between the rebuilds in Arizona and Buffalo, and we take your questions in another round of 'Ask the Dorks' Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey, everybody. Scott Burnside back for another edition of Two Man Advantage, the podcast, part of the Athletic Hockey Show Network of Podcast. Pierre LeBrun, as you and I are chatting here, we're going to have Adam Fox, Norris Trophy winner, is going to join us later in the show. I'm pleased to report that Hurricane Elsa has apparently been less than. than anticipated. And so as far as we can tell at this stage, all things go for game five of the Stanley Cup final in Tampa this evening. How are you doing? How are things in your end? I want to get your vibe. I want to know how you're doing. My vibe is I want to get to the end of the month so I can disappear. It's been a long stretch with one season going into the other and I worked right through as did you and as did a lot of people.

But yeah, that's all. I feel like I'm a little unfumed right now. I'm not going to lie. Yeah. No, I feel your pain, my friend. And we are going to get to some offseason stuff. We're going to talk a little bit about Stanley Cup final, which of course could be finished in a matter of hours.

But I'm going to start with, you know, it's just, it's so incredibly sad, Pierre, to have followed the story of material. Matisse Kivleniak's netminder for the Columbus Blue Jackets in the Blue Jackets organization and his tragic death in a fireworks malfunction mishap at the home of Manny Legacy, long-time goaltender and goaltending coach for the Blue Jackets. And I just, it's just so sad. And I guess what has struck me in the couple of days since Matisse's death was announced, is that just, you know, sort of the ripple effect. And it's, we talk about it and maybe it's a cliche that, you know, the hockey family and all those kinds of things. But to me, this has reinforced that, that it is a young man from Latvia and, you know, trying to make sure that his family is connected and taken care of.

But all, you know, teammates and former coaches and managers, a couple of whom I've spoken to is just, they've been absolutely shattered by this. And I, I just saw the sort of spontaneous response from the Columbus Blue Jackets fans. gathering at a bar that you and I've been to a number of times, the R bar right near the arena and again, spontaneous, you know, sort of gathering to honor the young man. And it's just, it's sad and I honestly,

I don't know what else to say. It's just so, so sad. Yeah. And one of my thoughts after getting over the initial, you know, sense of loss and tragedy is, is that I hope that the Blue Jackets players and staff,

you know, all get the counseling that perhaps they may or may not need or comfort each other and and make sure that they, you know, don't just park these emotions, but, you know, have an outlet to deal with it because, you know, this is something a lot of those players would have never faced before and it would really hit home. And yeah, you just feel for, you know, his family, but also for the Blue Jackets family. and how they're, you know, dealing with this right now. No question about it.

Yeah. I know it just as we were starting to tape this, the Blue Jackets announced that I believe it's John Davidson, president of the team and Yarmal Kekekelein and GM will meet with the media later this afternoon. So, you know, obviously, I think I'm with you. I think it's important to, you know, to have discussions and talk to people and work through this. And anyway, I know where airport's line for us is just, you know,

such an outstanding job of really putting this in perspective since it began. And the Blue Jackets will be adding further information presumably later today. So stay up to date on that. All right. There's no easy transition from something like that, but we'll transition nonetheless. And I was thinking about a lot of the discussion going into Game 5 in Tampa this evening, of course, dramatic victory for Montreal and overtime. honestly, the moments when Shea Weber went to the penalty box for the double minor at the end of regulation, and all I could think of was how terrible is just going to be for Shea Weber and the Montreal Canadians, if this is how it is because honestly, I could not see how the HABs could actually kill off four minutes against that Tampa power play.

And yet they managed to do it, and Josh Anderson scores on a great play. He and Cole Coughfield. and we are going to game five. I wonder what, I mean, you followed the Habs so closely this year. What was your, what was your emotion like

as you sort of saw this series extended by at least one game? Well, I don't know that I had any emotion. Well, no, I don't mean that you're, I only have emotion for the Dallas Cowboys, my friend. No, I didn't, I don't mean that you were cheering for them,

but you've, you follow it. No, I'll tell you my exact thought, I turned to my wife, and as Shay Weber took that four-minute poundly, which really put the Habs season on the line, and I said they're going to kill.

they're going to kill it because I don't know how many captains in the NHL more beloved and respected by his teammates than Shay Weber is and by the Montreal Canadians. And that's exactly, I mean, that was the P.K. of their lives against the best power play in the world. And in fact, on that night, Tampa somehow went 0 for 5, not from a lack of chances. Oh, my God. Between Carrie Price's, aerobics and a few timely goalposts, it's not like Tampa didn't have looks.

but kill that four minutes the Habs did. And after that, you kind of had to know how it had to end. And good for Montreal and good for the narrative because, you know, their run to the cup final is legit. It's inspiring. It's, I think, brings the sport to its best in terms of players working together as a team. And, you know, that's why hockey is hockey. I mean, this Habs run has been sensational.

And I've ended in a sweep. I think would have taken away from it to some degree. And by extending it to five, and you say, oh, what's the difference between four and five if Tampa wins Wednesday night? There is a difference. Yes. Because people remember sweep. I still remember Washington in many ways, a similar Cinderella run in 98 gets swept by Detroit.

And you kind of look back and think less of it, to be honest. But now that Montreal has won a game against this juggernaut lightning team, I think it does matter. And I think it was a wonderful moment at the Bell Center. Josh Anderson with a big night and the fans partying outside since they can't be inside most of them. But I think that was a, you know, maybe as I tweeted that night, perhaps one last dip into the magic bottle for this Habs team that had had so many good answers during this playoff. Well, I do like the idea that the Tampa Mayor did wish for a Montreal victory so they could win at home. And I've got to tell you, there's part of me that's sort of wishing that the series just keeps going on.

just to tighten the strings just a little bit. Well, she's, the Tampa Mayor's going to have to go and witness protection if Montreal wins game five tonight. Let me tell you. Oh, my God. Well, it made me think, and you and I've been around a long time, which goes without saying. But it is amazing how few or how few times or how rarely is probably the better way to put it, that the home team actually wins. the Stanley Cup home ice. And I don't know why they're, I don't know why it's like that. But of course, the last time it happened, you and I were both there, 2015 in Chicago.

Is that really the last time? Wow. Yeah. I'm not making this stuff up, my friend. Against the lightning. Against the lightning, exactly. And you know what I remember. And I remember about that night, terrible, terrible rainstorm, like flash, summer, thunderstorms, floodings on, on, on, on, or. all those surface streets leading up to the United Center. And you know what the result was of the flooding. It delayed the arrival of the Stanley Cup at the United Center.

Yes. I always felt bad. And, you know, when you talk to Phil Pritchard, who's the head of the Hall of Fame and the king of the keeper of the Cup, there are not. Not the head of the Hall of Fame itself, but yes, the keeper of the cup. It's a curator, I believe. It's his title. Yeah. That's a head title.

It's an overarching title. He's the face of the Hall of Fame. Good man. And poor Phil had, you know, because the part of the deal is you don't bring the cup to the building until late. Well, it used to be the deal. Right. So you got to finish the story here. One of the ramifications, first of all, you know, the Stanley Cup was delayed because of that storm.

They didn't get to the rink on time. And so the Hawks just kept, I mean, they didn't care. They just kept celebrating and hugging each other while the proceedings were delayed. I don't remember by how much we'd have to Google it in real time here. There's a little while. At least 10, 15 minutes, I think, yeah. And I remember running into Commissioner Gary Bettman after the proceedings and the hallways of the United Center.

And he looked like as angry as I've ever seen. And I said, how about that, you know, I made kind of a crack about the cup being laid. And I got to be careful. I don't really want to, you know, because it was setting guy. It was just a casual. Yeah. casual conversation, but the gist of it was that that was never going to happen again under his watch. So what's happened since then, of course, is that the cup is in the building all day long under watch, right?

So that'll never be delayed again. Yeah, that was a good memory by you. I was totally, I was going to say my memory of that night was because we walk around the ice after we're allowed on the ice during the celebration and the media, sorry. and you go from, you know, one little grouping to another and just try to do your interviews with the Black Hawk's players on the ice. And I remember walking by Brandon Saud, who was tremendous in that final and embracing Stan Bowman, the Hawks GM. And kind of overhearing, you know, your typical GM player conversation at moment. You know, we could have never done this without you. I think Stan Bowman said to Brandon Sott.

two weeks later Brandon Saw is in Columbus and again it wasn't it was just because after every cup the Blackhawks have to do the salary cap gymnastics and so Brandon Saw traded just a couple weeks later literally from that very emotional moment on the ice where you're winning a cup so it's always

that's the reality of it and by the way imagine if Tampa wins tonight or if they win this series at some point I mean what's that's you know, how quickly that core, we're not core, but parts of this team are going to have to move on in mid-Stanley Cup party, right? I mean, the Lightning have 14 players on their contract for $85 million. That's not going to work. So the cap gymnastics are going to come in a hurry here in the next couple weeks for Tampa. Yeah, well, and actually, you know what I've liked about this lead up?

And we shouldn't be surprised because John Cooper is, he's just, he's so self-possessed and he's so, you know, he's self-aware and he's not, he's not afraid to, you know, to have those, you know, kind of, it's not an uncomfortable conversation. It's real. And I thought he's done a nice job of sort of alluding to, you know, this group understands just what you said. That this is, this is, you know, this doesn't last forever. It's a, it's remarkable what they've done in, you know, basically 14 months. Less than that. But what, you know, from the, the bubble cup win in Edmonton to, on the verge of winning back-to-back Cubs with basically the same roster. It's a remarkable achievement, but it's also one that everyone who understands even the least little bit of the business of this game, and especially in this time with the flat cap, the reality is that you're right. I mean, how many players, what's the conservative estimate of the regular group that takes the ice tonight?

And I know Alex Coulorne is not going to play tonight, but let's throw him in that mix. Is it four or five or six players who may not be back? almost entirely because of economic. Which is how it happened all the time with each Chicago Cup in particular. They seem to have to do it more than some of the other teams. But yeah, and, you know, you know, Gujar and Coleman, two thirds of that remarkable third line for Tampa, two great playoff seasons, that third line with Yanni Gord. They're both UFA, Guzro and Coleman, and they were not making a lot of money.

It's time for them to cash in to some degree, right? Right. Especially Blake Coleman. So I don't know how they can both stay, maybe one of them. It's hard to tell at this point. You know, Tyler Johnson, we've always linked him to Seattle because he's from Spokane. And, you know, he can't, it really makes no sense now for Tampa to have a fourth line, $5 million player.

But of course, easier said than done. I mean, Tyler Johnson cleared waivers twice last off season as Tampa was trying to juggle, right? So I'm curious to see, as we speculated for almost a year, what the price will be. for Tampa if it wishes to go down this route. I mean, they could obviously make deals with other teams. It doesn't have to be Seattle. But if they decide to try and park Tyler Johnson in Seattle, if it's a first round pick, if it's a top prospect,

if it's both, I mean, what's the price to get Seattle to play ball on that? So, so many interesting stories coming, but, final note real. Yeah, well, that's true. I know, and I'm not being presumptuous because, and I know, I think back to the first round of the playoffs, which only seems eight years ago. Do you remember you and I having the conversation?

Basically, we'd already anointed Toronto the first round win because I'm sure we taped when they are up three. I don't think I did. I don't think I did. I am very cognizant of being a national, of being a TV slash media figure in both Toronto and Montreal. I am very careful not to annoy it.

Maybe I'm misremembering then. Maybe it's just me. I'm transporting it. But anyway, yes, you know, it's a good point. And here's a great thing about, about Tampa and we talk about Julian Breezebaugh and of course, you know, a lot, there's still a lot of Steve Eisenman's fingerprints all over this organization. But I look at that team and whether it's, you know, and I'm sure that Ron Francis in Seattle is looking at the same thing. But I mean, there just seems to be no end of, okay. So we're, you know, okay, let's assume, you know, Blake Coleman is going to go somewhere else, Barkley Goodrope as UFAs. You know, the kid that I thought was so interesting came up. at various points near the end of the regular season. There's Alex Barre Boulay.

Ross Colton, I think, has done a nice job when he's been pressed into the service in these playoffs. A real, you know, can fit in that, you know, in your bottom nine anywhere. Like, there's, Tampa has just done such a nice job that to me, even though they're going to miss whether, you know, Tyler Johnson's not coming back. So they're going to miss those players. But this team still, it seems poised to me to be right in. the mix. I don't see them. I just, I don't care who goes. I still see this team as, oh yeah, the lightning you're going to be right there. Right. Well, I mean, they've got the best goal in the world in Andra Vasselowski, arguably the best defenseman in the world in Victor Hedman,

although we have the actual Norris trophy winner, Adam Fox on our show later today. Yes, we do. And later in the podcast, yeah. I don't know why I said later today, literally in a few minutes. And, you know, arguably top three or four, five, forward in the world in Nikita Kutrov, do you agree? I mean, he's our trophy winner. So those guys aren't going anywhere, those three. So, yeah, I think, you know, the differences that they have to move forward without the same depth. But much like the 2010, 2013 and 2015 Blackhawks, or at least leading into 1415, the Blackhawks, the Blackhawks kept playing around and finding, moving some of the deck chairs around and took other runs at it.

I think Tampa can. I think a three-peat's probably unlikely, although we'll have fun talking about that all of next season, depending on what their roster looks like. But the idea that they might be able to contend again the next couple of years, given, again, the goalie, the D, and the Ford, I think that absolutely can. Okay, we'll talk about some non-playoff stuff, some, you know, coaching hires and things going on. We got the expansion draft now looming even larger in our windows. But I want to ask you, we were talking about how rare it is to see a team win a Stanley Cup on home ice. We mentioned the 15 Blackhawks doing it at home. The year before, L.A. wins at home in 14.

Alec Martinez. There really haven't been many, though, right? Like you and I covered the 06 cup win in game 7 in... Well, L.A. won both their cups at home, 12 and 14. So we were there for both of those. That's right. Yes. And yes, after going up 3-0, the devil somehow punished us by making his fly back and forth across country twice.

But no, too, kings get to celebrate twice at home. Carolina did in 06, Anaheim in 07 as well. Do you have... Is there a moment, or is there one of those that you're like, oh, I'm so glad I was there to see that market and those. and those fans celebrate that moment? Yeah, I think Chicago and 15, you know, because it was a third cup in six years, and they hadn't been able to do it at home yet.

And just, and to be honest, even that night in that moment, I don't know that we truly thought they could, that they could massage the cap again enough to, you know, it felt to me like they had maximized their window in that moment. I remember thinking that. And what a wonderful thing for Hawks fans to be able to live. of that night, despite the weather, though, mind you. That's true.

I thought that Carolina win, coming first win out of the lockout, a really interesting final series against, you know, a team that, sort of two teams that came out of nowhere out of the lockout with Carolina in Edmonton, and boy, it would be a long, dry stretch for the Oilers after that. And I like that one.

And the fans rewarded in Carolina, you know, after, it was sort of, you know, people like to make fun of the Carolina. line of organization and the fan. So I was pleased to see them. I will say, and this is not a criticism at all. I think every market has their own way of celebrating and do it. It hit me when I left the rink in rally that night that the streets were very quiet.

Yeah. That there was really nothing going on around the rink and, you know, and how different that would be in other markets after winning the cup. But I would also tell you that I think that would be different if they won the cup again here soon. Oh, yeah. That I think that that fan base has grown by least. and bound since then, and that if they got the chance, then they certainly have that chance,

the way they built that team up, I think it would be a different scene on the night of perhaps winning a cup at home there than it was in 06. Yep, no question. We might even have to make a reservation at Bates Pataglia's bar, the lucky Bs where we celebrated before game seven back in the day. What are the epic writer events leading up to a Stanley Cup? And there have been a few.

So. Yeah. No comment. No comment. That'll save that for the book. Oh my goodness. That book only gets published after I died. It'd be like the, it was it.

Anyway, is it the Warren Commission after the, anyway. Yeah. Anyway, so I enjoyed your piece earlier this week. You talked to both Kevin Adams, GM of the Buffalo Savers and Bill Armstrong, GM of the Arizona Coyotes. Coyotes hiring Andre Turingier. Am I saying that right? Have I got the right?

Andre Turini. Tourini, of course, well known in Major Junior and International Circles for his work in the Canadian programs. And I wonder what you, you know, were you surprised when you, and of course, we already talked about it last week when Don Granato was confirmed his head coach in Buffalo. But I thought it was interesting you talked to two GMs who are trying to revive franchises. have had all kinds of issues. And I wonder, you know, what were the takeaways for you and maybe, you know, sort of reason for optimism for one or both? Or what was your takeaway?

Yeah. Yeah, you know, I was happy with the way that story came off because I, I, the more I thought about, I mean, part of it was last weekend, you know, Canada Day and last week, I took a few days. And I was thinking when I come back, I'd like to make sure we don't just pass over the fact that Buffalo and Arizona made those coaching hires because I think there's a national. angle to it. And to me, there's so many overlaps between the coyotes and sabers. Unfortunately, for a lot of negative reasons because of what's happened over the past decade plus. But also positive

reasons in that I think they both have, you know, first time GMs who are trying to think outside the box here. And, you know, made coaching hires that some people, you know, weren't that impressed with or at least are saying, let's see. And that's okay. It's okay not always to do what you think people want, you know, the sexy hire because that's often worked out. And one of the examples I pointed out in my column with, you know, with Arizona and Andre Turingi, you know, not a very heralded hire at this point of his career, although I always thought the way Turingy was tracking, he would be a head coach one day in the NHL.

It just came quicker than I thought because, hey, you know, he had a pretty good gig at Hockey Canada. People listening aren't aware. Like, he had left the OHL for this season and for, sorry, for next season as well, so that he would be the assistant coach at this past men's worlds, then the assistant coach for the Olympic team in Beijing and the head coach for another world juniors, and then head coach for the men's worlds next May. I mean, those are a lot of key high-profile events that were part of his hockey Canada gig,

and he's willing to, you know, to leave that behind, obviously, for an NHL lead coach opportunity. That's why I was surprised. Not that he would be a head coach one day, but that the timing of it. But the example that I like for Arizona is Jared Bednar. You know, when Colorado replaced Patrick Guad with Jared Bednar, let's just be completely honest, guy. It, you know, it didn't blow you over at the time, right? it's sort of like, okay, so they promoted Jared Bednar.

Let's see how this goes. And then, of course, the avalanche are terrible. They've lost place in the league. But the idea, I think, was that Bednar would grow with what the avalanche had decided to do in their reset there, right? Their rebuild. And it has worked. You know, I mean, I think Bedinar has grown with this young avalanche team. And I think that's what Arizona is trying to do with Ande Turingia here.

Yeah, the coyotes are going to have to reset this thing. They are going to get worse before they get better. They're going to get younger. They're going to trade away some pieces and there's going to be some pain. So the idea, I think, is that this coach will have the patience and the teaching capability to get through these rough waters and come out of it on the other end with this team as it looks differently in a few years. That's the notion here with Arizona. And I think there's some similar, you know, from talking to Kevin Adams, same type of patience and teaching that he sees in Dong Green, being able to work with not only a young savers roster now,

but it might even get younger by the end of this offseason with some trades that are coming. So real, I think, overlaps between what the savers and Kaotis are attempting to do here. Well, and you and I've talked about this a lot, and I couldn't agree more. And it's fact, I just went, I was looking it up, and people forget about Jared Bednar and the ads because they're such a dynamic team now.

22 and 56 in his first year. And, like, they were. And the point being that he didn't lose is, you know, he kept his composure through that. Exactly. And his presence around young players. So it's that job's not for anyone. No. You know.

Well, you and you have, well, here's the thing. And you and I talk about this. And it's not in, it's something that's in short supply, really. I mean, you, hey, you, you talk about the patience. It, to me, it's, it's, it's more than patience. It's, it's. It's the vision and the vision has to be consistent from ownership to management to coaching to the locker room. And every single person has to be in lockstep on what that vision is.

And if people aren't, then you have to peel them to the side. But you and I both know that we're talking about vision and patience. That costs a lot of money, right? It costs money to be in the NHL and not make the playoffs. year after year. It just does. And so, you know, I hope ownership in Buffalo and Arizona have that kind of, you know, not just the patience, but that they sign on for the vision and that they're willing to let, you know, good people do their jobs, even if it takes a period of time that causes some, you know, ongoing pain. And it doesn't happen all the time. It's just that people get in,

people get impatient. And they get tired of losing money. And they say, well, how? How come, you know, how come Florida's doing okay? Let's, let's throw this out and do something else. Well, you do that and you're in the same boat for the next five years anyway. So that's my right. And I thought, you know, Kevin Adams, Collman's very passionate about what's happening here. And, you know, he specifically mentioned guys like Dylan Cousins and Dalline and Casey Meadow as a young core that he's going to build around. The point being, it's who he didn't mention that's the story, right? And that's okay, because that's where this is headed.

And I, you know, I went and read some of the comments underneath my column. And it was interesting that, because I have to think this is so hard for Savers fans who are one of the great fan bases of the league. Agreed. To have to go through this yet again. And yet a lot of the Sabers fans who commented underneath my story were like, as painful as it is, this is what has to happen. Like, got to move on for Michael and probably Ryan.

hard and rejig this thing again, but do it right. And there's no guarantees, of course. You could be back in the spot in three, four years. But I don't know what other options there is. I mean, that culture has to be changed again. Got to have guys who want to be there. And, you know, this is the way to go about it. Yeah, good point.

And as promised, joined by Adam Fox, Norris Trophy winner, the New York Rangers. Adam, thanks for dropping by. And listen, you know, I know, the Norris is a. That's a nice thing. I'm sure it was nice when you want to. I have a bit, I have a more important question to ask you off the hop. And as you know, you and I spoke earlier in the season and your defense partner and roommate, Ryan Lindgren, you guys live together. You've got a great system going on. And you also have an indoor putting green in your place. And I want to know at the end of the season, who was, who was the thing? king of the putting, who was the putting champion at the end of the season? To me, that's, that is foremost in my mind. Yeah, that's a great question. I'd say, it depends who you ask. It was, it was a very streaky game. I think I went on some runs and then he went on some runs. So, uh, depends who you ask, I'll give myself the nod, but I'm sure he would,

he would say differently. Well, now, when did you, I'm curious about what his response was when you actually won the Norse. That must have been, you know, as I mentioned, you guys, not only lived together, but our partners on the ice, that must have been nice for you guys to share that kind of, that kind of honor. What was that like? Yeah, it was awesome. I mean, I think we both were just like, we couldn't believe it. I mean, we thought it was crazy. Obviously, you know, we've known each other since we were 16 and I don't think either of us would have expected to be in the positions we're in at that time. But yeah, I mean, obviously I thank him. I, you know, I don't think I win this without, you know,

playing with him, you know, most of the season. And, you know, he's a great player and obviously, you know, one of my best friends. So it was definitely a nice moment to share with him. Have you had a chance to look at the names on the Norris Trophy at him? And from over the years and the realization that you're part of that very, very elite club now? Yeah, I mean, obviously you look at the names and some of the players that, you know, my name is associated with now. It's crazy to think about, I think. I'm not always, you know, thinking about it.

I think sometimes you could just brush it off like, oh, I won. And then sometimes you actually think about it and it's crazy. Well, so I'm curious, Pierre and I have done award ceremonies in Vegas. And, you know, in a normal year, we know what that would look like. And now this is two years in a row where it's not normal. Walk us through, like, where did you, were you at home? Were you, where were you physically when, And you got the word.

And walk us through what that moment is like for you. Yeah, so I was leaving a workout and, you know, got a call that I had won. And, you know, I was able to tell my family. And, you know, that kept it on the down low. And, you know, obviously then had the presentation with, you know, Brian Leach. And that was pretty awesome, you know, being a Ranger legend. And, you know, just being able to have him present. it was pretty cool.

But yeah, I mean, finding, finding out I won was definitely surreal. And, you know, being able to give my family the news, you know, myself was obviously a cool moment for me too. You know, Adam, you've entered the league and looked like you belong from the moment. You got on the ice. And I think it's interesting over the years, the debate that different players at your level have about how many college seasons they want to get under their belt before they make the jump.

But like for you, what went through your mind as you decided the, you know, to play, you know, three years of college hockey. Some players just do one. Some players do two. Obviously, given your success here, you must feel like you nailed the path. Yeah, I think, you know, obviously a lot of it, you know, as opportunity and, you know, obviously you need a little bit of luck. But yeah, I think I just wanted to be able to, you know, be a really impact player, you know,

especially at the college level first before making that jump. And, you know, after my junior year, I feel like I have. I did that. And, you know, you never know what to expect when you, when you make that jump. You know, you hear different things. And, you know, you see different players who, you know, go different ways. But I think for me, yeah, I think I just wanted to be, you know, as ready as possible and feel as confident as I could and know that I was ready to make the jump. And, you know, obviously when that time came, I made that decision.

And, yeah, it worked out. I'm curious, I mean, you mentioned Brian Leach. I thought the NHL did a great job with sort of setting it up with, with, you know, important people presenting the awards. I thought it was great that Leon Dre's Idol twice got to give awards to Connor McDavid and press him on on how important his linemates were, her, his teammates were, which was kind of fun. You talked to Brian Leach, obviously, with that, with the presentation part, but I'm wondering if you heard from people that, you know, surprised you. I don't know whether, you know, youth coaches or teammates or were, did you hear from people after winning the Norris that you were like, oh, wow, that was, that was really cool. I'm really glad they reached out or whatever. Yeah, definitely. I think, you know, my dad was always asking me throughout the week, you know, who's the, who's the least expected text you got and, you know, who did or didn't text you? And, you know, I must have got, you know, 300 plus texts or calls. And it was a lot to sort through. yeah, I mean, there is a lot of people to thank, obviously, you know, it's a long journey to

get to this point. And youth coaches, you know, skill coaches, skating coaches, everyone in between is, you know, to thank. And, you know, obviously when they reach out, you kind of, you thank them for their help. But yeah, it's definitely, uh, it's awesome when you could have, you know, reconnect with people who maybe haven't spoken to in a few years and, and, you know, just be able to talk to them after a while. You know, what you haven't been able to do yet is play play playoff hockey in the NHL and

Of course, you're only a couple of years into your career. But I'm wondering, you know, over the years, I know some players watch it really a tentatively, even if they're not part of it. Others just can't bear it because they're so jealous. They're not part of it. But where do you fall in terms of paying attention to how the playoffs are played out here? And, and again, trying to glean how different it is, right? It just feels like a different animal every year when the playoffs come on.

Yeah, definitely. I think, you know, I think I grew up a hockey fan. You know, I love watching hockey. So I think I like watching. Yeah, there's always that, you know, bittersweetness when you see another team celebrating, you know, winning around or even, you know, eventually winning the Stanley Cup. And obviously, a little bit of jealousy sets in. But, you know, you are watching and seeing the intensity. And I think the bubble that we had was a little bit of, you know, test to it.

And, you know, kind of an experience for a little bit of a playoff hockey. Obviously, it's a different intensity. And, you know, you can't really prep for it until you're there. But, yeah, I mean, obviously, I enjoy watching. it and, you know, obviously trying to see little things of, you know, when that time comes of, you know, how guys play and the little differences between that and the regular season. I mean, it's, it has been an offseason with lots of stuff going on around the Rangers, various levels. And we've had Gerard Golan on our podcast back in the, back in the day. And I wonder if you had some conversation with the new head coach of the New York Rangers,

and maybe what your vibe or your first impressions are of Gerard and what it means to a team that I think will go into next season with extremely high expectations as it relates to being a playoff team. Yeah, obviously, I think I've heard nothing but good things about them. I heard, you know, players really like them and, you know, he'll go to bat for players, which I think, you know, everyone loves. And I haven't spoken to him too much. He reached out to congratulate me, but obviously you hear positive things about him.

And, you know, he's dealt with teams similar to hours in the past. And, you know, definitely just excited to get going. And, you know, I know he's a great coach. I think we're all excited to get going here. I think you're going to love playing for him. I can tell you that. And by the way, good catch by you. I was thinking when I think playoffs, I think the 16 teams,

but you guys did have that play in series in the bubble, which feels like 17 years ago to me. But, yeah, that was last summer. So technically, I think you're down for three playoffs games. Yeah. Yeah, everything gets lumped together over the best year and a half. But yeah. Yeah.

Now, let's talk Olympics. You know, the NHL hasn't completed a deal yet with the IOC. So who knows what's going to happen, although we should find out in the next couple of weeks. But if NHL players are invited to participate for the Beijing Olympics, no doubt your name is going to be in that conversation for Team USA. What would that be like for you if you get selected? Yeah, I think that would be a special. moment for me, obviously, that's kind of the pinnacle of representing your country. And for USA hockey, you know, I've been fortunate enough to play at various, you know, events for them, whether it be

world juniors or world championships. And, you know, even was at the NTP for two years there. So, you know, whenever you represent your country, it's, it's awesome. And, you know, if you're able to play at that level of it, it's, you know, the top of top tier for it. So, you know, hopefully NHL players are able to go. Obviously, that would be awesome. for a lot of guys, but obviously we'll see. But, yeah, if, you know, are able to play in that, it would be special for me for sure. And I'm curious, does it come up in conversation? Like, just, you know, whether you're working out in the off season or does it come up?

I look at that Ranger lineup. And, you know, there might be seven or eight guys that could be on their various national teams if the NHL is going to Beijing in 2022. Does it ever come up? And I wonder what's it like when it does. them up in conversation? Honestly, I don't think it's really been talked about too much. I think, you know, during the season, I don't think guys were really focusing too much on that.

But, I mean, I think everyone would love to have the opportunity to, you know, whether go for themselves or CNHL players in it, I think it's obviously nice when it's, you know, the top guys there. And, but yeah, not too much conversation about it, honestly. I don't think, you know, guys have really discussed it too much. You know, Adam, I think what sets players at your level apart is, and I've seen this over the years, I remember Cindy Crosby early in his career talking about different things he needed to work on after he just won a major award, never happy with his game.

What would you say you'd like to work on with your game, even after winning a Norris trophy, but that you'd like to work at? Yeah, I think for me, it's, I mean, kind of been the same thing since I was 16, 18, I think. I've always been able to think the game pretty well, but it's always that physical attributes. You know, I'm always trying to, you know, work on my skating and, you know, work on my shot, strength. I think all that just, you know, the way I play could help me become, you know, an even better player. I think, you know, if I'm able to add some strength and, you know, be a little stronger on guys and, you know, work on my shot, maybe, you know, get a few, you know, a few more goals and finish a little better. I think, you know, stuff like that could definitely help me, you know, in the future.

We'll ask you one more, Adam, and let you go. But it's sort of a nice segue. I mean, we're talking about, you know, sort of thinking in the game. And I was reading a piece by Molly Walker, the Post. And I understand you've got some other chores in this off season to take care of. And it sounds like you go, you're a couple of degrees short from your psychology degree at Harvard. What's left? And why is it important that you take care of that?

What's why? I think of a lot of people who said, well, you want to Norris, take the summer off, you know, put your feet. up and play some golf, but it sounds like this is something that's really important to you. Yeah, I think. So I got two more classes and then, you know, I'll get my degree and graduate. But I think for me, I think, you know, ever since I was a kid going to Harvard was kind of the main focus for me and, you know, graduating there, I think it's it's more just honestly fulfilling and, you know, something that I wanted to do from the start when I got there. And, you know, obviously it's an accomplishment and no one could, you know, take that degree away from you.

So, yeah, I only got two more classes and, you know, it'll definitely be nice to finish up. I joke around and tell people on my Harvard dropout instead of, you know, left assigned. So I could finally say I'm a graduate at some point. Well, I wonder if there will be a temptation to maybe on a cover sheet of whatever assignments you're putting in that you could put the press release from the North. So I'm just saying, I don't know whether that helps in the marking, but, you know, I might want to continue on Harvard too much. You know what? I think it's a good calling guard, though.

I feel like when you email your buddies, it should be like a signature thing at the end of your email that says Harvard grad Norrist trophy winner. I feel like that's pretty strong. Yeah, I don't know if that'll probably catch me a few jabs if I signed off emails or text with that to them. So I might just keep it with Adam at the end. Well, that sounds like a good.

way to go. But it's been great to catch up, Adam, and really pleased for you, obviously, of course, the Norris, but also finishing up the degree that's quite an accomplishment. And I hope you enjoy your offseason. And I hope we up here and I often say this at the end of our conversations with people. I hope that we're crossing paths in real arena sooner than later. But thanks for coming and hanging out with us today. It's been great. Yeah, definitely. I, you know, it was a pleasure to talk. Yeah, definitely, hopefully we'll see each other in an arena soon enough. Good stuff. All right.

Great. Thanks, Adam. Enjoy your off season. Thank you. All right, my friend. And I thought Adam, he's a very polite young man. He did not call you right away when you erased his three-game playoff experience in the playoff round against Carolina last summer.

I'm with you. But I think part of it is he probably doesn't feel like he's played real playoff hockey yet. If you listen to what he said, he's saying he kind of got a feel for it in that little, Like he kind of referred to it as like the preamble to the playoffs. And that's how I feel about it. Like I think, you know, I think that you got to be in the 16 to be considered a playoff team. And that's how I look back at that bubble event last summer. But, you know, you may feel differently.

Yeah, no, it's, I must admit, I don't think of the play in round as, anyway, I don't consider it a playoff. So I'm with you. In fact, when you said it, I was like, yeah, you're right. Anyway. Yeah. But I'll tell you what, he's, you know, so well-spoken and, you know, I mean, the guy's going to have a Harvard degree. But I think that he is going to be in that very elite group of guys that have played this game that will never be satisfied with what they've accomplished, that want to find yet another level.

And that's why those players are so special. That's why they end up having the consistency and piling up awards. and being different than other guys who sometimes may have those seasons and then disappear, there are two different type of guys at that level. And I think Adam Fox is going to be in that very elite level. I'm fascinated to see what happens between now and the starter training camp because, you know, we were talking about Kevin Adams and Bill Armstrong earlier and the work ahead of them. You think of Chris Drury, who became the GM after a tumultuous end of the regular season

and the changes at the upper level of that organization and all of the talent and all of the moving parts now for this Ranger team. And correct me if you think I'm wrong, but I think the pressure is going to be enormous for this team to, you know, on whether it's adding a guy like Philip Dono or a Blake Coleman, that kind of, you know, toughness and skill to help the already, you know, top end skill on that team. Whatever changes, a lot of pressure on Chris Drury to make the right moves so that the team takes another step forward. And, you know, Adam, obviously Adam Fox is a huge part of that. But, man, there's so much to like about that team, but they're not quite there yet. And they play in, man, that division is so tough when the Metro gets back together. I think it's going to be a fascinating offseason for the Rangers.

Well, Gerard's track record. Yes. He will maximize what he has on that roster. That is his track record. Good point. All right, my friend, here we go. We've got some questions coming in, asked the dors.

We missed it last week because we had such a jam-packed show, so it's good to get back to some of this. Let's start with Yannick La Rondo. You know, like I now say all the French names with a French accent. Are you with me? No, I'm not with you. Okay. All right, no matter, this is a Montreal fan,

no matter what happens in this final. What do you think Mark Bergman should be focusing on this summer to be even more competitive next season without touching the core too much? And, you know, you got the Seattle expansion draft factored in there too. When you look at this have lineup, there's, you know, like every other lineup, there's going to be some changes. Yeah, I mean, obviously, to me, the Philip Dineau situation,

him being impending UFA looms large. I mean, he's proven yet again that even with a reduced role in a sense of offensively, with Suzuki really now, clearly the number one center offensively. And Cockneyemi threw his ups and his downs with a bigger role moving forward, that that DeNos still as a shutdown center is such a big part of this team winning. Do they circle back to each other and try to make a deal of work? We know that was, you know, according to reports, a contract, you know, rejected back in the fall.

That's number one for me. And then I was talking to a front office executive from another team. team. He was talking about the Canadians and how he really liked how they, you know, put things together in this playoff front. But he feels that clearly either whether it's through the development, continued development of Rwanov, but or going out and finding another reliable defender that they can't rely that much year round on three defensemen, essentially. I would argue four, but he said three at the top end of that blue line, especially with, you know, Shea Weber, it was been tremendous in these playoffs, but getting on in age,

he feels that if he were Mark Berger and he would go out and try and find another top four blue liner just to further, you know, deepen that group. I'm just curious, you and I have talked a lot about Philip Dono. And, of course, a huge goal the other night in game four. Just let me, you and I've talked about how difficult it's going to be to, I don't know, handicaps not the right word, but as a UFA, he really is in sort of his own little space because his skill set is so unique.

Do you think the playoffs have really, have they changed it dramatically in terms of teams that might say, you know what, I can live with, you know, maybe not all that much offensive production because I want that player on the ice in critical moments next season. Has the playoffs changed that much for Philip Dono, do you think? It's so hard. to say, you know, I wrote about that last week and got varying opinions. I don't know if you saw that,

Scottie, but like I had some front office people putting him at four to four and a half million, which I thought was way too low. And then I had another one point out that his numbers the last five years are almost identical to Jordan Stahl, who's a six million dollar player. And, you know, I think he's at least a five million dollar player, if not north of five million because, yeah, he doesn't score a lot anymore. But he shuts down every top scoring the league. I mean, there's got to be some value to that, even in today's game where everyone is two-way and not necessarily the old shutdown centers of the past, right? The geek carbonos of the world and so on. But I don't know what else he has to prove. I mean, he's that intelligent a player and has that much of an impact defensively.

I've got a couple related questions here. This would be good. And actually a good segue after talking to Adam Fox of the New York Rangers. This is from Mark Miotto. Otto, with reports that Jack Eichael is looking to opt for surgery. Is it time for the New York Rangers? He says to put up or shut up when it comes to acquiring him, but maybe we just say, you know, is it time? The Rangers, you know, they covet a franchise center or would Jack Eichael fit that role pending what they do with their existing roster moving forward? I mean, you still got to factor in, you know, what your plan is. is for Mika Zabanajad moving forward, who has one more year left on his deal. But let me synthesize it.

You're like, you like Jack Eichel is a fit for the Rangers? I know they've been connected at various points for a long time. Yeah, I mean, it's not as sexy as when David Quinn was still that coach. But, yeah, I mean, the number one center is still the unicorn for the Rangers. I just don't know. Like, I think if you're Buffalo, you're trading him West if you can. You know? Now, maybe at the end of the day, the best deal is not West.

you know, whether it's Anaheim or L.A. or Calgary. I mean, I think there are teams that could make sense. Minnesota has shown interest in Ikel. But at the end of the day, if the Rangers step forward, and I do think the Rangers have again showed interest. I don't know that they've been among the more aggressive teams, hard to say, but I think the tie will always go to the team out west, don't you? I mean, I mean, like why have them in your crosshairs for the next, you know,

different division I get, but still, same conference. too close for comfort. And actually, it's a good segue because John at John Sink-604, he wonders, Vegas, could they take a healthy run? Jack Eichol, and you and I've talked about this,

you know, that was a disappointing playoff series against Montreal, the Habs doing such a great job at neutralizing, you know, what should have been a, you know,

much more dangerous, Vegas offensive group. And I think it did highlight a team that probably needs to address its centered depth. But boy, Jack Eichol's a big, that's a big ad. There would be lots for Kelly McCriman to do in order to accommodate Jack. But I think it's a fair question as well.

And it goes to your point on if Kevin Adams can move Jack Eichael as far away from Buffalo, he's going to do it. Yes, I think that's a given. And it's also a given Jack Eichael will never play a game of the Sabres again, I think, in my mind. You know what I may be the only person. Okay, maybe it happens. I just keep thinking to myself, listen, if Kevin Adams doesn't get a deal he likes, he's got a great young coach, Don Granato.

Couldn't Jack Eichael live with that? But anyway, no one, I am the only person who I've talked to or heard who says, well, you know, he doesn't have to trade him. He's under contract for five more years. Anyway, no one thinks he's not going. But a year from now, July 1st, less than a year from now, my goodness.

his full no move kicks in. So suddenly, Jack Eichael has all the leverage in the world if there's a trade scenario. I think you have to do it now. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, I just say, yeah, okay.

You know me, sometimes I'm, sometimes I'm a contrarian. Sometimes I'm just wrong. Often. Oh, well. Often. No, contrary, not the wrong part. Yes.

All right, let's take one more. How about from Matthew Jex? at M. Jex 19. I thought this is a good one to close out on. In hindsight, is there a recent player, let's say since the 0405 lockout, that didn't win the Konsmyth trophy that you feel really should have? There's probably no one that comes to mind for you, but anyway, I get you. Oh my goodness.

I've had so many rants on this over the years that I feel like I should have turned the page. But how can I not answer? How could I not answer? No, Chris Pronger was robbed of the Khan Smythe in 2006. I mean, ridiculous, to be quite honest. So, Edmonton went to seven. Chris Pronger played 74 minutes a night during that cup run for the Oilers. Carolina, full value for being Cup champions, but Cam Ward, it was terrific.

Didn't even play every game, right? In that playoff? But he played very well when he did play. He did. No, and this isn't about taking away from Cammore's performance. The point is, no one was more valuable to his team in those playoffs than Chris Bromner. Period. So that's my answer.

Okay. Who also? And I mean, really, that's like shooting fish in a barrel. I knew that that would come up and that's a good one. You know, one, it's funny, we were talking about 2015, and I'll go back to 2013. I know you're going to go there because our colleague in Chicago, Mark Lazarus, is still beside himself that we voted Patrick Kane over Cory Crawford. And I get his point.

And, you know, one of the things is we've gotten to cover so many Stanley Cup finals as, you know, and we're so fortunate for that, is that the beat riders only get to Cup finals when their team makes it. And I think what happens is when you go to the Cup final every year, you know, the reality is a goalie in some way should win the cons might every year period. I mean, how can you win a cup without your goalie being great? And so I had developed my own thing over the years where for the goalie to win the cons might, it has to be extra special.

Every goalie is great when you win the cup. But how much more special? And that's my own personal definition. It doesn't have to be everyone else. And I got to say, I'm just, you know, I am one of the voters for the consmites. again this year and And Andrei Vasilewski is giving me a lot to think about because I think he is that extra special, right? I mean, he's been unbelievable. So I got to be careful. I don't want to give away my ballot before I vote and we'll see what happens tonight. But certainly, to me,

the debate between Kuturov and Vasselowski is really close for me. I voted Patrick Kane that year. I think you did as well. He had so many huge goals in the final two rounds for the ox. But there's no question that I will accept a Cory Crawford argument there. I think if Corey Crawford had won that year, he would have been full value. Well, and here's the other thing that sometimes people, you know, and basketball's different, I think. And sometimes people, it's, I don't know whether recency bias is correct. But people think, oh, who is the best player in the final series? It's a four-round trophy.

That's why it's such a great trophy. It is a great trophy. It is a great trophy. It's eight, nine weeks of hockey. Yeah. Well, and I think, you know, going back to 2013, if my memory serves, like Duncan Keith was really, really good at, you know, some points. And then, you know, same with Jonathan Taze. But I remember the argument very closely.

But Patrick King was consistently delivering the goods. And I thought it was the right choice. And I defended just like Doc Keith was a no-brainer in 2015. I mean, I remember thinking this is one of the easiest cons of my votes I've ever had. I was going to say that exact same thing. Yes, no, completely. All right. And the only, I'll tell you the one that I certainly wasn't upset about it.

But I, you know, to me it was so close in 2018 of getting Kuznetsov and Alex Ovechkin. Yeah, really close. Yeah. Really close. And really, you know, it was, it's fun when you have those debates because it's not, you're not, it's not, I don't think in general, there's a wrong answer to what this, you know, even with Cam Ward ahead of Chris Browner. In general, you're talking about degrees of excellence at the greatest time of the season. for players, you know, it's not, you're not taking a player who gets knocked out in the conference final or the semifinal. So there are teams who are right there at the end. So it's a great exercise.

Yeah, another good one was, and again, no wrong answer. But the other, there have been a couple of close ones. One was Justin Williams and Drew Dowdy in 2014. A lot of us were going back and forth. I ended up going Justin Williams because he was so clutch. But had Dowdy won, I'd been, yeah, of course. The other one was Crosby against Phil Kessel. Remember, that was a debate. I can't remember if that was 16 or 17. It wasn't as much a debate for me as it was for others. I know some people felt Phil Kessel should have actually won.

No. Cindy Crosby's contributions on those back-to-back penguins teams at both ends of the ice. It's just, don't overthink it. Give the MVP of the guy who was the MVP. Yeah. All right. That was good work today, my friend. What else we got here?

We got Jud Brackett, the director of, Amateur Scouting for the Minnesota Wilde joins Mike Russo this week on straight from the source. Interesting times coming up around the NHL, of course, the expansion draft and the real draft a couple of days after that. Ian, I look at my calendar, it's like two and a half weeks. Unbelievable. Mark Lazarus from the Athletic Chicago joins Ian Mendez and Haley Selvian on the Athletic Show Monday at the Athletic. What else we got here? We know that the athletic show expands to five days a week. Everyone knows that.

Of course, the new show Friday, The Prospect Series with Max Boltman and Corey Promin. And you should check out our comments section for each podcast episode at The Athletic app and rate and subscribe to the athletic hockey show on Apple. If you aren't already a subscriber, go to theathletic.com slash hockey show and receive a subscription for $3.99 a month. My friend, I can't wait to talk to you next week. We may adjust the schedule.

I got a little travel next week, so the schedule may be a little bit off, but don't worry, we'll be back with another episode next week. Yes, we'll be airing next Thursday instead of Wednesday. We can tell her listeners, yeah. We like to keep them on their toes. But anyway, fine work by you. Great to have Adam Fox on. And, buddy, have a great, great week. Right on, right on.