The Athletic Hockey Show - Rod Brind'Amour feels like the richest coach in the NHL. Montreal Canadiens and Tampa Bay Lightning one win away from the Stanley Cup Final.

Episode Date: June 23, 2021

Scott and Pierre welcome Rod Brind'Amour, the 2021 Jack Adams winner to the Two Man Advantage edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. Rod discusses his Carolina Hurricanes season which ended at the hands of the Tampa Bay Lightning, his contract extension with the Canes, Dougie Hamilton's future in Raleigh and Rod's love for the organization and North Carolina.Scott and Pierre look at the final four in the Stanley Cup playoffs, including the impressive game 5 wins for Montreal and Tampa Bay, and if Vegas and the New York Islanders have it in them to bounce back in game 6.Plus, the guys dissect the Vancouver Canucks announcement, welcoming the Sedin twins back to the organization and the impact they will have as Vancouver looks to rebound from a nightmare 20/21 season.Finally, in Ask the Dorks, the guys answer your questions on officiating during the playoffs, where Jack Eichel might end up and who the most interesting free agent is this coming off-season. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey everybody, Scott Burnside back for another edition of Two Man Advantage, the Hockey Show, part of the athletic, the athletic hockey network. Pierre LeBrette, I'm worried about you, Pierre, because with the late starts in Vegas, I know you're doing half games, you get up early, we're taping the podcast, it's so exciting. We're going to have Jack Adams winner. Rod Vindamore is going to join us later in the show, but I'm worried, you know, because you're burning the candle on both ends. And I know in your younger days, that was part of your raison d'et.

But, you know, you're not as young as you used to be. How are you feeling? Five hours sleep, but I got the caffeine going, and I'll slide in an afternoon nap when I need to. And keep an eye on the European Championship soccer games today, some big games. Not that that's for work. I'm just trying to slide that in there to see if you're paying attention. Yeah. You know?

Because you know I'm a big soccer guy. Man, it's been a fun tournament. Really? Yeah. Who's is, um, are the, uh, are the, uh, white caps in it? Uh, I'm not even going to, not even to try with it. In fact, I thought that was pretty good to come up with the white caps on the, uh, on the spur of the boat. All right, let's, listen, we're, as I say, we're going to talk to Rob Brindamore.

Uh, can't wait. Um, but in the interim, uh, speaking of Vegas, Montreal, I, uh, A, just absolutely loved your Cory Perry piece. And I, and, you know, I talked to Corey for a story, which I haven't even written yet. We talked during the pandemic and it was just before. Well, it looks like you might have time now. Yeah, no kidding. Anyway, it's that, I'm not going down the rabbit hole of that. But anyway, he and I chatted during the pandemic and it was, you know what? It was just before he ended up signing in Montreal because he and I talked about, you know, what was going to happen because it, you know, looked like a return to Dallas was going to be out of the. question and you know he listen he he he's not a young man and uh but i just watch him every night

now and it's just so impressive and i loved your piece and you talked to people who knew him so well you know scott needermeyermeyer and bob murray and i wonder we you know so let's start with cori perry but were there things that surprised you when you were doing the piece about how people view cori perry because you know listen he's a guy that you know other teams don't particularly like all that much. Yeah, it's a guy that you find hard to play against, but when he's on your team, you love him. And, you know, it's interesting.

Like Scott Niedermeyer by the end of our phone call, Hall of Fame defensemen, he said, you know, he's played with sort of two guys like that, that you really, really appreciate having on your side and not playing against. And he said, Clothe Lemieux and Corey Perry. Of course, from the Niedermeier from his devil's days with Clothebue. And I think that's an apropos comparison.

And, you know, he was only in Dallas one year. And the eye-popping quote I got from Jim Diole, a star's GM, is that he called Cory Perry one of his all-time favorite players, all-time. You know? And I think it's just that that leadership and that passion for the game is so infectious in a locker room. And he just, Corey Perry is a guy that wills a group into the fight. And they got a few of those guys right now. Montreal, not just Cory Perry, but, you know, just when I saw his bloodied face and welcoming his teammates after overtime Friday night in game three against Vegas, I said, I got to do something on this guy. And I'm really happy with the way the piece turned out because there's some interesting nuggets in there, like Pat Morris, the agent, revealing, I had heard that at the time, but revealing on the record that when Perry was on waivers early in the season, he phoned the three teams that he had a feeling might try to claim him.

and dissuaded them from doing that. And imagine, imagine if Perry's account in Montreal never really gets going because you guys claim that waiver. So that would have been pretty sad. Yeah. Well, and it's a good way to segue into where we're at now. And I watched that game last night, Game 5, of course, the HABs coming up with an incredible victory in a very difficult place to play in Vegas, to take a three-two series lead. And there's none of, like if you said to, if we were talking about the start of the series, well, Montreal might be ahead three to two. And you would say, well, that's only if Kerry Price is, stands on his head every single night, blah, blah, blah. You know what? I mean, that, I mean, Kerry Price is really good in the third period. Um, listen, I think the halves have been the better team. I would say for, what, 65, 70% of this series, they have been the clear better team. I would not have predicted that. It's fascinating.

I mean, we talked about it for the series. I did think I had seen enough of them now that I thought the house would give Vegas a hard time. That's what I told you. But again, I was going to pick Vegas, you know, in six or seven. But all these people saying the North is about to get exposed, the halves are going to get swept. That was nonsensical even before this series. I didn't need to watch them play another playoff game to know that they would absolutely give Vegas all they could handle. And that's another big message in all of this.

regardless of how this series ends, even if Vegas comes back to win in seven. Yeah. The very tiresome conversation about how bad the North Division was, I think we can put that to bed. Like it turns out that if teams don't play each other, you don't know. Yeah. You don't know. And yeah, the games might have been more wide open. A lot of high-end offensive stars in the North and the scores were often higher than the three U.S. divisions.

It doesn't mean that it's a week, you know. So let's just put that to bed. The Havs performance, I think, is, that's one thing that it has done. But, you know, I thought Vegas was the better team early on in this series, and I think Montreal has been the better team really in game two, in game four, and in game five. I thought Vegas is better in game one and in game three. And, of course, the interesting thing about that is Vegas lost game three and won game four, but in terms of merit of play.

And it's, the series is, based on merit, it's exactly where. it should be, I think, three, two. Yeah, no kidding. Listen, I think it's, I think it's, you know, in the same way that we look at Colorado and understand that, you know, whatever, you know, their loss to Vegas may down the road galvanize them or be a learning experience. I know it's a bit of a trite thing to say when a good team gets beat out. But, you know, I think we think that's the case with Colorado.

You've got to learn how to lose before you can win. This Vegas team, this has been a, uh, a, uh, a, uh, a revelatory series, I think, because you can sense the frustration of their top end guys. I know Max Patcheretti scored a goal last night, but, you know, Mark Stone, who never wants for effort. And I think he's been, he looks like he's doing all the right things, but cannot find the back of the net. And it just. Had a great chance there last night. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, coming around driving to the side of the net and couldn't get the stick on the puck. And anyway, I just think it's fascinating because, you know, this is a Vegas team that, you know, it should be, you know,

is built for this kind of series. And here they are. They, they need to win two in a row to advance to a final. I'm, I'm not sure they have it in them. Well, it's interesting. In many ways, they're playing a mirror image of themselves, except that a lot of people didn't think the mirror image would stand up to them. Like, like, they're both, you know, both the halves and the golden knights want to grind you down and not be just about one line and terrific blue lines. and all world goaltending. I mean, they're very similar, except that you just felt that clearly Vegas was more of an elite team.

Well, that's obviously not playing out that way. And, you know, you talked about Colorado. I can't help but think if you're Joe Sackick and Chris McFarland and the abs front office that you're looking at that series. I've got to be careful not to knee jerk because that's dangerous in this business too. But the way the Habs big four, are shutting down Vegas's forwards

after the Habs Big Four shut down Wheeler, Kyle Connor, Nikla Eilers after they shut down Austin Matthews and Mitch Marner,

boy, if you're Colorado and you've got this very talented blue line, but do you have enough beef on it? And I know

as soon as that came out my mouth, I know the analytics crowd is just going to want to come after me. Listen, I got, I'm not on,

with either camp and all this. I'm all about data and I test and merging all the ideas together. But the fact of the matter is what we've seen in these playoffs yet again, it's not like it's a new thing, by the way, but again, what we've seen these playoffs is, you know, the game is played differently, the game is called differently. And if you've got big dudes on the blue line that could take away time and space and get away with some of it, it's paramount at this time of year. And I don't know that the abs have enough of that on their blue line, despite all the all-world talent that they have there.

I don't know how you feel about it. No, I think that, in fact, I got a mailbag thing coming up, and there are a number of questions about the abs and what do you do? And I think, you know, part of it is, you know, listen, they really missed Eric Johnson on the back end. And he would have been one of those guys. Exactly, yeah. But your point is well taken.

And the proof is in how, and it's not just Montreal, the, you know, those top four, man, they're going to be tired at the end of it because they're not, Eric Wistinson's not seeing a lot of ice time for the haves. And so there's a lot of load on those top four guys. But, you know, who reminds me, you know,

Tampa, once again, you know, look at the back end in Tampa. That's pretty beefy too, boy. It helps when the best defensemen in the world happens to be both,

you know, an offensive genius and a beefy defensive genius. I mean, Victor Hedman is the whole package. But the rest of that blue, Ryan McDonough, Oh, yeah. Such a strong physical, smart player.

I mean, up and down, a little beat up right now, but you're right. I mean, that's, and again, like, in many ways, Tampa is the model for Colorado more than any other team because of the all-world skill that the lightning have, but the way in which they tweet that lineup to adjust a playoff hockey over the last couple years. Yeah, what, I mean, think about, well, to your point then. And Colorado won't be the only team that looks at these playoffs and says, geez, are we? Are we big enough on the back end? Are, you know, in the same way that Tampa asked themselves, are we big enough up front before they won the cup last summer and may well win another one this summer?

But it makes me wonder about a guy like David Savard, who, you know, again, you know, like he's not a flashy guy. And if you're, unless you're following the game closely, you might ask you, oh, why do people care about David Savard at the trade deadline? Well, for the very reason that you've just outlined, The guy who can block shots and, you know, clear bodies and chew up 22 or 23 minutes a night if you need him to. And I think he's been really good in Tampa. And it's fast.

I don't know how that's going to play out. You know, as you and I are chatting, bolts coming off that 8-0 whitewashing of the Islanders. Now, listen, never count Barry Tross's teams out. So we'll see how it turns out. But, yeah, it's going to be fascinating because I have to believe, even in a flat cap era, that a guy like David Savard suddenly becomes, when GMs are like, let's make, let's see, let's see if we can fit a guy like that into our budget because they see how important it is when it matters the most here in this playoff here. But again, it's about balance.

Like you can't, you know. Can't have six of those guys. Right. So it's so it really, I mean, logic. I mean, you need a bit of everything. It's really the story here. And, you know, it's not like Montreal is just about beef. I mean, I mean, the first pass for Shea Weber and for Jeff Beatry is pretty damn accurate.

Joel Edmondson underrated. Joel Eminson was the best defenseman on the ice for Montreal last night. His story continues to be, I mean, his acquisition, the last off season was not, was not welcome by enamored Habs fans. No. It was not like, wow, what an act? You know, it was like, what is this about? And, you know, and listen, I could tell you first of all,

Habs, assistant GM's cop, Maloney's base in St. Louis would have seen Edmondson play a ton, especially during that cup run in 2019 with the Blues. you know, Kirk Muller, who was on the HAB's coaching staff, of course, you know, would have known a young Edmondson from his time as a coach on the Blues coaching staff. And finally, as the story goes, Mark Bergerman was in the bubble watching about three hockey games a day in Toronto last summer at the start of that tournament. And kept watching Edmondson on Carolina knowing that he was a pending UFA and said, this guy would be the perfect, because the HABs, of course, last summer were basically playing 3D. and and he and he Bergevin to his credit looked at Joel Eminson and said imagine if I have him joining Weber Sherrod and Petrie there is my big four yep and again what it was not a universally praised signing but again it was Mark Bergevin saying come playoff time these guys make a difference and he's been proven right yeah there's no question and then

Eminson's game itself as there has been an evolution, right? I mean, you go back to that cup run in 19 for St. Louis. And I remember you and I were doing like player, you know, stock up down, like after every game. And there were some moments where he, you know, it was hard for Joel Edmondson during that playoff running that group. But he has, I couldn't agree more. I think he's just been so important to what the haves have done.

And man, it may not be over yet. So, well, it's definitely not over yet. They're going to play at least two more games. But it'll be interesting to see, you know, could be the, you know, part of that mix in sending a Canadian team to the final for the first time since 2011. And of course, last time, Canadian Cup winning team in Montreal, 93. And this allows me the good segue before we get to Rod Brindamore to talk about Vancouver, the last Canadian team to make a final.

And interesting move. Management-wise have been in the air for a while. But the Sadiqin brothers, Daniel and Henrik, formally joining the front office there is the special advisors to the GM. I just have to think that that, hey, let's assume that their voice is going to be heard and whatever their true mandate is, it is about bringing the truth and being candid and having a role. But I have to believe if that's the case, this is good news for a Vancouver team that really took a step back this season. Yeah, I think it is. I love the promise of it. And, you know, do you know anything about the Cidines is they don't do anything halfway?

I mean, they're going to put their heart and soul into this and be willing to be a fly on the wall too as they learn about it. I think it's very much akin to me the way Steve Eisenman went into Red Wings University after his playing days and soaked it all in from Ken Holland and Jim Neal. I think that that's what the Cidines are going to try and do as they want to put their imprint on this organization.

Now, on the flip side, and I hate being a cynic, the only thing that worries me is that we had a lot of warm feelings about Trevor Linden going back and running that franchise. given where Trevor Linden's place in Canucks history stands. And we know all that ended. So that's a very unique market, extremely passionate. And, you know, I would argue that the Sedeans will have the kind of Teflon in that market that maybe no one else ever has in the history of the Canucks.

So that'll help as they, again, try to get back on their winning ways here after being the team of the bubble last year. But I see no downside in this. I think that this is all positive and Connect's fans would be pretty excited. Do you like it when I pump your tires about all the great stuff that you've written? But the piece that I really enjoyed along with the Corey Perry piece was your, we talked about stock up, stock down, and the playoffs, as they should, in my opinion, way heavily in a lot of factors, whether it's free agency. but coming into an Olympic season.

Maybe. Maybe. We hope. Yeah. As fact, I reached out trying to get an update on it and it was a long, I sent a long email and it came back. No, sorry, no update. So I'm hopeful that, you know, again, we're hoping that there will be Olympic tournament in 2022. But I thought your piece was interesting because these playoffs, you know, on a number of levels have been, you know, for some players, they've been really disappointing.

And I think they will, especially for deep teams like Canada and the United States, you know, it could have an impact on whether a player, you know, where they fit into the pictures we head into next season. I'm wondering, did you hear from people after your piece or were their surprises? Because people take these things very seriously. And I wonder what kind of fallout there was. Yeah, I did. I heard from a lot of Lee fans. And it was interesting because, and again, this isn't like, I got to be careful. how I say this. It's not like I'm just making this up. Like, obviously, you know, I understand

that the Canadian management group is looking at the playoffs as a very important barometer as to how players performing big games and what that means for these really difficult roster selections. Now, again, I didn't, the rest is all on me, but knowing the background that Team Canada's brain trust is looking at these playoffs as a really important moment, especially in a short in season, by the way. there's no question that you know Mitch Marner for example who might have been almost a lock

before the playoffs to make the Olympic team for Canada is now more of an open question now I personally would still put him on the team because I think it's a team so full of centers playing out of position that when you have a natural winger like him that is so talented that I would make room for him kills Pellon who does at all but you can't argue with the fact that

he's now gone, you know, two playoff years in a row without a goal and that that would raise eyebrows within the Canadian brain trust. It's just, it is what it is. And now, the point I was going to make is that interestingly, I also wondered whether Morgan Riley stock had gone down. The interesting feedback I got from a lot of Lee fans was that they actually agree with my partner assessment, but would disagree with the Riley one. Interesting. Yeah, and it's true. I thought Morgan Riley was good in the first round against Montreal. But he kind of, unfortunately, you know, you get swept under sometimes with this perception now

that the Leafs haven't been able to step up to playoff time for a number of years. And he's been there for a number of years. So, again, unfair probably. And again, if I'm putting Team Canada together, Morgan Riley is among my choices on the left side. But the idea of the piece was stock up, stock down. And I think if you're a leaf, you know, your stock is down. Now, does that affect Austin Matthew for Team USA? No, does not. But, but, you know, and so that kind of thing, you know, going on and on with other players in the playoffs, too. The playoffs loom large.

Good. Good stuff. All right. Excellent stuff, my friend. As Promise, joined by Rod Brindamore, head coach of the Carolina Hurricanes. As of the last week or so, the Jack Adams trophy winner is the coach of the year. And Rod, right off the hop, hey, thanks for coming to hang out with us. but I'm wondering if you are seeing an immediate response to your Jack Adams win with that U-10 team that you're volunteering with. Have they responded to your award with better play yet? Because I've got to hope they will. That's, you know, you would think so. But we were on the ice last night. And I mean, if there's any indication, then it certainly didn't pay off.

Because my son was just terrible out there. I said, what are you doing, man? You're wasting my time out here. Hopefully it catches on, but so far not very good. Now, Rod, I'm surprised that you're willing to do this podcast because when I think back, Scotty did a big article on you, I think about two years ago or a year and a half ago. I forget when he spent time in Carolina, wrote a story. And they're all the time. And he quoted you saying because, you know, eventually your contract was going to be up.

And he quoted you saying, well, it's not like I'm going to go coach anywhere else. or something to that effect. I mean, really, you should never be talking to Scotty again. That is not negotiating 101, right? I know. Listen, trust me. I've heard it from everybody on how not the negotiated deal here. But, yeah, Scottie's been one of us, man.

We've gone back. He's been, feel like you, I've seen him, like you said, you've been down here a lot, in our room. And, you know, part of the reason that's easy to say yes to do and stuff like this, because he's a good deal, Scott. You guys are good, dude. It makes it fun to talk to you guys. And so that's why we're here. Well, see, we're just going to continue to talk about how much you like Pierre and I. We're going to fill up the 20 minutes or so with that. But no, Pierre, you know, Pierre sort of jokes about, you know, your new contract.

And it was a top discussion or a hot topic around the hockey world, what was going to happen to you, whether you were going to stay in Carolina. and you've had a lot going on, right? I mean, you win the Jack Adams to sign a new deal. You know, the hurricanes lose to Tampa and five games in the second round. What's it been like for you to process all this happened to you in the last two or three weeks? Because there's a lot of stuff going on. It was. You know, starting with the most important thing.

You know, the losing was the hard part. I mean, you know, we wanted to do better. And I don't get caught up in, you know, you got lost in the second round or the first round. Like to me, last year we lost in the first round, but we were technically, I thought that was a second round because we had to have a playoff to get in. I don't really understand that. But then we hit, you know, Boston, which they were the best team in the regular season, you know, so you lose, we hit one of the top teams.

And there's no different than this time second round in. We're playing one of the best teams. So I don't look at it that way. I look at, okay, where could we, you know, how far away are we from beating these guys? And then I look at it and it's clear we weren't quite there, but it's not as bad as, oh, you lost in five games. Because two of those games, I thought were in our hands. And even the one we lost when we were up four, too.

Like we were in position to win now. How do you get over that hump? That's where the experience comes and that's where Tampa's got us a little bit. So we've got to learn from that. And all the other stuff was going to take care of itself. You're talking about a contract. Like, to me, that was it going to resolve itself one way or another? obviously it did and you know I know we're really just focused on this team this

how we get better like how do we get that a little bit better so we don't have this conversation again next year well and I think what's special about all this for you Rod is how ingrained you are in that community and that organization because I just never thought for a second that you were going to leave even though the whole thing certainly probably dragged that longer than you would have liked but it's just can you put into work how, I mean, to me, you're the heart and soul of that organization. Wow. You know, I don't know about that.

What I know is, you know, I don't, here's a thing. I feel like I'm one of the, I think I said this somewhere, but one of the richest coaches in the league and not because they pay me the most. That's not how it is, but I don't know too many coaches that get to work where they live for the team that, you know, they've kind of had a footprint in putting together. And then gets to do it, like I said, with a bunch of guys that I've been around forever. It's, I don't know what you want to put a value on that for, you know, and my, like you talk about for, then do all the extra stuff. My family's from here and, you know, the roots they have.

And it's just, I don't know any coaches that have what I have in that regard. And so, yeah, they may make a lot more money, but, you know, that's, I guess, I don't know. That's not the most important thing. And trust me now, you know, I feel like I'm the richest coach in the league. Well, and if I can follow up, not to put too fine a point on it, because, you know, sometimes it's uncomfortable talking about money all the time. But, you know, the other part, unlike you and a lot of other coaches in the league, and just to be fair to all of this, is that you played in the league a long time and made some money.

Like, most coaches don't have that background or a lot of them. Like, this is, you know, they're having to fight. tooth and nail as they should, by the way, for their compensation. And you have a different background. Is that fair? I mean, that's part of it, too. I mean, you know, that is fair for sure. But like I said, I think the most important, Fannie is another issue that I don't know how other

coaches relate to owners and GMs, but, you know, you know, Tom, like, I have a great relationship with him and building our team and putting our pieces together. And, you know, I feel like all, every step of the way we're talking about. I mean, everything. And Tom doesn't pull a trigger or Don without saying, hey, what do you think about this? Or, you know, and I don't know if the other coaches have all that,

but, you know, that's special too. Yeah, no question. We were talking, Rod, just before you started to tape, and you're wearing the NC State hat to a little college world series going on. But, but, and you talk about your family and your in-laws are, they come from an athletic background. Your father-in-law is a long-time player and coach. And I wonder, and I know, I know that you have not just a close relationship, but you talk about the art or the craft of coaching and athletics and all those kinds of things.

And I wonder what kinds of lessons maybe you've learned from talking in spending time with your father-in-law, his experiences. And are you able to apply some of those to what you've learned in your experiences as a coach in Carolina? Totally. So my father-in-law, like I said, he's coached college basketball forever. He actually played with. Will Chamberlain back in the day. Wow. So he's got some great stories that he doesn't tell me. So I just can only guess. But the coaching part of it was been great.

Just the crossover, you know, we would talk a lot. And he was more questioned me on stuff. But it's amazing, you know, little key phrases that use in basketball that, you know, you can relate to in hockey. And, you know, it's five on five in basketball. There's a lot of things going on when they do picks and they're doing. and all this stuff going, that you watch in hockey, it's happening all the time. So the sports, you know, they cross over, but more importantly, how you relate to the players,

right, like the things you talk to, that's universal. And dealing with, he was dealing with college athletes. And I basically deal with that age group, too, in a lot of ways. So we definitely had a lot of good conversations on that stuff. And, you know, at my time here, I was thinking about this basketball, It's such an influence down here in North Carolina. I've become great friends with the former NC State coach, Sidney Lowe. He's now moved on, and he's coaching in the NBA and an assistant.

But we chat quite a bit, too, on this kind of stuff. So it is, you know what, it's sports is sports, right? It's all about dealing with your athletes and it doesn't really matter which one. You know, Rod, a couple weeks ago, we had Dave Thippet on this podcast, and really gracious of them to join us about a week after they were knocked out in the first round. and he said some really interesting things about, you know, why was Montreal, you know, playing so well? And, you know, what did Winnipeg do to beat his team? And essentially, you know, Scott, you can remind if I got this right.

But in a nutshell, he talked about playoff hockey and how different it is in regular season hockey and the lessons and, you know, the different grind. Like, I feel your team is learning those lessons every time you get a crack out of here. But how would you put into words, you know, especially as. as Montreal continues its run, but that it is a different season and a different style and how players have to adapt to that. How would you put that into words? Yeah, it is 100% that. It is two different seasons.

And the regular season should be maybe, I don't know how you can put more weight on it because it is an 82 or 56 crammy. Like, that's a big deal. To play well that whole time and really get nothing for it at the end of the day, if you get in, that's all you have to do. Somehow I feel, because it's six months of, you know, every day trying to get better and pushing your guys and, you know, and then at the end of it, really all you have to do is get in.

Once you get in, all that goes out the window. And really all we get out of it is a game seven home ice advantage if you get to it in a lot of ways. So, you know, as a coach, I'm always thinking, how hard do you really want to push, you know, because you got to have some more juice in the tank or you got to have something. You certainly have to be healthy. You know, but you can't come off the gas because there's only really one way to do that. Otherwise, you won't even get in the playoffs because it's such a fine line.

You know, so I think from my standpoint, I probably still have to learn maybe when we were in, we had 10, 11 games left in the season. We were in the playoffs. And at 56 game schedule, maybe should I have backed off a little there? But, man, we were still playing for first, you know, like there was just so many, oh, what's the advantage? Then we get, we go in to start the playoffs and Jacob Slavin gets hurt in the last game of the regular season. And now, all of a sudden, well, you know, that's a big loss. And we got through

the round, but not, you know, it was getting dicey. And then because he had to come back, kind of half beat up. So, you know, I don't know the answer to that. But I do know that, that when you hit the playoffs, you got to be healthy. You got to have your full team. Because once you eliminate 16 teams, everybody's tight. I mean, it is good. You know, when you get down to the straws of it, you got to have your full group. If you're going to win. I mean, you just, to me, you look at Tampa, they added Kutrov. Right. Like, they were already good. And then added the best, maybe the best player in the game. Now, if you're got a guy that's out, like we didn't have Nino Ryder or Trochec.

Suddenly, they added the best player. We just took out two of our guys, holy moly, that's a big deal, you know, that just is. I mean, over a seven game series, that's going to come up somewhere. And obviously, it did with us on, just on the power play alone. Like, I mean, we took too many penalties. Boom. That's the difference in the whole series. And I'm watching the Islanders playing now. What's the difference? The games are tight, tight, tight.

The other night they get six power plays, boom, three. You know, you can almost look at it. The other two games that they won, they took one penalty, right? Like, it's such a fine line. And the Islanders are, you know, scrap that last game to me. That's an easy game to recover from. But, you know, they won't take six penalties, you know, in the next game. I guarantee it.

And the game's going to be tighter. So I don't know if I'm answering your question. Well, no, it's fascinating what you're saying, right? But also the part, because you thrive as a player of raising your game at playoff time. And I'm just wondering how different the game becomes, especially for skilled players, where, you know, it's tougher to earn your ice and it's more of a grind and it's more physical. I mean, that part of it, you know, right? I mean, that's a different game, but it's not. See, I always thought, everyone said, you know, you raised your game.

the playoffs, I really didn't. I just played the same. Like, my game didn't change. I think some guys, you know, they, their game is a little, maybe it's on the outside during the regular season. Maybe it's a little less, you know, direct in playoffs. All of a sudden, everybody's playing hard, like every shift. It's not some shifts. It's every shift. And, you know, if you don't have that already in you, it's harder, I think, in the playoff time. And especially the first couple rounds, I really believe the Stanley Cup can, you don't win it in the first round, but you can certainly obviously lose it. Like, that's when everyone playing their best.

That first round, somebody is the hardest round to get through. You know, because everyone's so energized, usually everybody's healthy. And then even now, you start watching it. If you look at the first round to this round, the intensity of it is still there, but it's not as physical. Things are starting to wind down a little because of attrition. And those teams that get that kind of understand. hey, this is how it goes. They're the, you know, Tampa's of the world. They, they understand how

that works. It's funny to say that. I just last night watching Vegas Montreal, I was like, you know what, this is less physical than it was early. It's more tactical now at this point. It's like survival. Yeah. Yeah. So I was lucky. I sat in on your very first meeting with your team after you took over his head coach in the fall of 18, right? And I remember part of your message, I mean, Keynes had missed the playoffs for 10 years, nine or 10 years. And so your message was, okay, let's not stop playing hockey, Napo. Right. I mean, our goal is to be a team that, you know, that it's, that's when it starts for us.

And you've done that now. And I wonder what the challenge for you is because it's, listen, the expectations are different now. This is a Keynes team that should be in the playoffs, I think, every year, right? You're that good. And I wonder what the challenge for you is to take that message. then to another level and say, okay, like, do you have to coach differently? How do you, how do you do that? Because you sort of achieved what you set out to do in that very first meeting in some ways. In some ways. But the other part of that meeting was, you know, was, okay, we want to be relevant,

but we want to be the best. Yeah. So the easy thing is, okay, well, clearly we're not that. Otherwise, I wouldn't be talking to you right now. So, you know, we still have that to go. And I, what I like about it, I think it's amazing how setting the standard or the goals or whatever you want to call it, the expectations, if you just, it doesn't have to be hockey and anything. You raise it on everyone. Suddenly now we don't talk about making playoff. We're not talking about, you know, oh, let's squeak in and B.C. No, we're talking about trying to be the best team.

So the playoffs are off the table now. And as we did is just say, let's raise the bar a little bit around here. And, you know, obviously, I think we do, obviously, we do have a lot of. a good team. So we can legitimately say it. It's hard if you know the guys know we're not that good. That makes it a little bit harder. But we know we've got the talent. We've got some good, good players here. But I think the carrot is still, we got to win. I mean, that's, that's what's, that's all that's left here for us to do. And that's, I mean, it's not going to be easy, obviously, but that's what we're all about. When you see Eric Stahl score a goal, and I think about,

you know, the connection, you know, he was a boy. really sort of coming into his own that first year in 0506 when you guys won the cup and you were the captain of that team. And I wonder what, you know, is it hard to sort of reconcile the two, the passage of time? There he is. He's still out there and he's now one win away from going back to a Stanley Cup final. I wonder what it's like for you to see a guy like Eric had that success. And of course, you know, Jordan being the captain and knowing the Saul family as well as you do. Well, it's great.

I'll be honest. And I obviously, Eric and I, you know, go way back. like you said, great, great relationship. Talk to him a lot, you know, over the year and even this year was tough year for him. And, you know, going back to getting traded, you know, to Buffalo. I mean, there's a backstory there too. Like I, I, the minute it happened, you know, I called him. I was like, you know, because I knew it was going to be tough on him.

You know, he just kind of settled roots. Okay, I'm going to, in his mind was like, I'm going to stay in many. And this is how it's going to go. I got my fan, blah, blah, blah. And then now he's, you know, genisthen out of there. there and COVID, right? So couldn't see his kids all year. Like, it was going to be a tough year for him. And I just kept telling you got to hang in there. So, you know, it's going to be the best thing for you. If you're, if the team, Minnie didn't want you, that would have been bad.

You would not have had a good time there. This is an opportunity. And it didn't really work out, right? And above Buffalo was like, oh, boy, the disaster. And then, but, you know, like, good things happen to good people, right? Like, now it's flipped. And obviously, here he is, getting the chance, like you said, to potentially, you know, go on to the chance for the Stanley Cup. So couldn't have him to a nicer guy. Number one, you said the family is phenomenal. So I'm really happy for him. Yeah, last question I would have for you, Rod, and I know that normally I wouldn't ask this to a coach, but you are very involved in what happens in terms of roster construction.

But how hard is it for you as a head coach to separate at times, you know, the business of the cap and, and how the team gets built. And what I'm getting to is obviously Dougie Hamilton has a big decision to make here eventually. You know, he's been so good for you guys in Carolina. Obviously, I know what you would like to see happen, but how do you approach that in terms of understanding that it has to play out?

Right. Well, it's tough and it's not tough because it's not tough because, you know, I have my voice. We talk about it all the time. You know, obviously we want them back. But I also understand that it has to, fit, right? Like, you just, there's a number on everybody. And if you overdo it, how are you

going to have a good team? You know, and we have to be, you know, cognizant of that. I mean, it's can't overpay Dougie or because we're not going to be able to fill the other holes. Like, we've got some holes. We've got to fill. And otherwise, the boat just keeps leaking, you know, like it doesn't work. And so I am aware of that. So I just, I think where my influence comes in is more, okay, do we want the player? Yes. Okay, now, what's your offer? You know, it's got to be fair. It's got to be, you can't just throw a number out there and think that that's going to get the guy. But if the offers are, you know, fair, if they're reasonable, then I kind of step out of it. Like, I think we've done what we can. Now, you got to let it, like you said,

let it play out. And, you know, that's kind of where I think this is going to end up going or taking shape. I think that's what's going to happen here. So hopefully we get them back. But we also, I mean, I'm realistic. You know, I understand how it works. Yeah. One for me before, we let you go. You're not, you don't strike me around as a decompressing guy. I, but I wonder if you've learned since becoming the head coach, you know, how to take your time in the offseason. And I wonder what the rest of the time and is going to be short, obviously, between now and the start of training camp and third week of September, whatever it is. How do you, what's the summer look like for you? And how do you, you know, prepare for what comes next? Well, I, it's

double ed sort of a little bit because I've never decompressed, really. When I played, I was never took time off. Because I always feel like, you know, somebody's getting better, right? Like you got to keep that. And same thing with coaching where I've still, I know I have to get better. So how can I turn it off and be getting better? But also knowing that you do need to get away from it to be fresh. So there's this, you know, that's what I struggle with all the time.

So I don't know. I know that what I'll end up doing is probably just keep plowing through, you know, just because I at least I won't. feel like I'm missing something. But, you know, I don't know. I'm, like I say, this is my home. So I'm here every day. I'll run into the rink usually every day.

See my video coach. We go at stuff all the time and then I'm home, you know. And so I don't really, I'm getting both. I think I'm covering both. At some point my wife's going to lose their mind and go, we have to do something. You know, we have to take Little Brooks somewhere and do something and we'll fit it in. But I don't know when that's going to be because the calendar is what it is. It just seems to be something pressing all the time.

So I have to figure that part out. Yeah, it's going to be the shortest off season ever for everyone, that's for sure. That's it. It's going to be tough for these teams that are still playing mentally. Like it is for sure. Well, Rod, it's always great to catch up with you. And appreciate your time and hanging out with us always great. And look forward to my next trip to Raleigh.

We'll see each other in person and look forward. Anytime. I appreciate you guys. Take care. Yeah. Thanks, Ryan. Okay. Enjoy the show. Oh, it's good to catch up with Rod, my friend. And so here's what I want to ask you. I was thinking about this as Rod was chatting.

And, you know, last week we were talking about, you know, a Canadian Olympic team. We were watching Kerry Price and Mark Andre Fleury going toe to toe. And maybe they're the one, two goalies for Canada. Again, assuming there will be Olympics in 2022. What's up? I'm curious what you think, because I think John Cooper's a guy, obviously, with Tampa. You got Barry Trots, Pete DeBore's, you know, has a history with hockey Canada as well.

I got to think at some point, Rod Brindamore, even though he's not part of that hockey Canada, that's not part. That's not where he comes from, really, in terms of his coaching. But I wonder if there's a place for him on that Canadian coaching staff because, you know, I just wonder, because to me, it would be a natural fit to have a guy with that. kind of enthusiasm, but a lot of good coaches that Doug Armstrong is going to have to choose from. Yeah. So, you know, as I speculating in that piece last weekend, I do believe John Cooper will be the head coach of the Olympic team for Canada. I don't know if that decision has been made yet,

but that's, you know, to me, that's who's going to get it. And that's amongst a lot of great choices. And then I think if it's like the way they used to do with Mike Babcock, you know, I think they'll let John Cooper sort of have a feel for who he wants to assemble himself with on that staff. And so, you know, does he reach out to a Barry Trots or to a Gerard Allant or to a Robbrenemore? I mean, it'll be interesting to see how he decides to fill that out if indeed I'm right and he's the guy. So, you know, and to your point, one of the things that normally before you start getting calls for these assignments for Dean Canada, as you start to go to the world, right, do some world championships and so on. but I mean, I don't know whose stock has risen more in the last two years as head coached as Robert Nguer.

I mean, that's why he's such a humble guy that maybe he just is uncomfortable talking about it, but it would have been a free-for-all. Had you gone to free agency, to be quite honest. Yeah, it's just like, you know, there are teams that have coaches that may have wanted to talk to it. I mean, but again, I think I think he eloquently talked to. about his roots and why that was just never going to be an option for him. And I don't blame him. I could not agree more, my friend. All right, my friend, here we go. Just about to wrap up this edition of Two Man Advantage.

Got some questions. A little Ask the Dorks. This is interesting. And there were a number of questions that surrounded officiating in the playoffs in general. And I thought it was interesting because I know you're a guy who stays away from, you know, sort of wading into, you know, a sort of knee-jerk reaction to calls missed and stuff like that. But even you tweeted the other night. Yes, that was rare of me. It was rare of you. And I thought it was interesting because you also tweeted that it looks like Kelly Sutherland

and Eric Furlat who I thought did a marvelous job in game five in really, just really calling the game properly. I just, you know, I love that part of it. And they may end up doing game six as well, which is, which I think is a good thing. You know, there were a number of questions. I'll take this is one from the cause. Do you think the NHL will seriously look at the officiating in this year's playoffs and admit there needs to be some changes? Or do you think that there is a feeling that this is all right? And I guess that's to me, that's the bigger question. It's not, you know, did you miss a high stick on Corey Perry, which they did.

But the greater issue of what's the mandate? What do you want this game to look like in the playoffs? And I wonder if you think, because it hasn't been a great spring, I don't think, in terms of, of overall level of officiating in the playoffs. Yeah, so I want to separate my comment from the other night from the overall playoffs because there are two different feelings for me. I would tell you that the overall playoffs, I don't think it's any different than any other year. I don't buy, I think there's a recency bias. I think social media exacerbate. I completely mangled that word.

Oh, exacerbates you did well. You're in it. You can tell I had five hours sleep. You know, every year there are some flashpoints and obviously they have come for the most part over the past week, although there have been different flashpoints throughout these playoffs. But I don't think it's any different than any other year. But I think there are ways and platforms where people's feelings about officiating has been able to be disseminated in a different way than least. So honestly, I truly believe that. And that goes for a lot of different things in society, by the way.

But certainly, game three and particular game four that day is Montreal series. For both teams, by the way, which I stated in my tweet, I just think there's got to be a line where, you know, a high stick to the face and a punch to the head and a cross-check in the back. Those are still penalties. I get that the line changes in the playoffs that you allow the grind of it to happen. That actually doesn't bother me. or maybe it's just that I'm used to it.

But there are some penalties that have to be called, and that was, frankly, a disaster in game four. But I'm not saying that that's what the entire playoffs have been. I think that's an exaggeration. I think people are overreaching. And I don't want to sound like the old guy, but I think we have a lot of younger members of the media, too, that are covering the game that have a lot less, you know,

a body of work to work with to compare all this. And I think they forget. like there's been there have been flashpoints of the officiating forever i mean uh you know we go back to jim shonfeld jim shanthold episode years ago but my point is it's not you know carry fraser in the battle of quebec uh you know um you know there have been all kinds of different things over the years and i think you just have to calm down and i don't buy that the officiating is worse today than it was 10 years ago i personally don't buy that i just think like players i play off time, like players of good nights and bad nights and we hammer players when the other bad nights.

The officials have some bad nights do, and that was particularly bad. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not sure I agree entirely. And maybe it's, and even if, I just think there has to be an acknowledgement, which the league is loathe to do, right? The league is what, it's, they don't like to admit that they make mistakes or that their people make mistakes. They don't like to do that. And I think, you know, maybe it's time. I wrote this after, um, You know, I wrote this earlier, but maybe, you know, what would be wrong with having sort of an official's summit? Listen, the NHL behind the scenes, they do a lot to try and open. It's hard.

It's hard to get good officials. And it's hard to train and develop them because the game has never been harder. People get hammered, you know, all the way down the line. Youth hockey, travel hockey. It's a terrible job because of social media and the parents. and it's hard to get good people. And the NHL works hard to open those doors. They do a great, it's a camp where they, basically,

they reach out to players, men and women, who have played at a high level but aren't playing the game anymore. But maybe they're interested in becoming official. So they tried to cast a wider net. That's good point. Yeah. But maybe they're, you know, I think it's okay to acknowledge, hey, maybe we need to do better,

especially given social media. But anyway. Well, I'm sure, I mean, normally Gary Bettman, the initial commissioner, does a state of the union address at the Stanley Cup final, you know, now we're in the Zoom world, we know what that's going to look like. But presumably if he does it again, then no doubt it would be asked about it. He has to be. Yeah.

It'd be interesting to see whether he's willing to go down that road or not. Yeah. But it's also worth pointing out and, you know, this is a delicate thing to talk about, officials hate when you start getting into individuals and so on. But arguably the best two restaurants, in the game aren't even available right now. So West McCauley's been out for a bit here and now there is a potential of him Maybe coming back for the cup final. That's not for sure, but the potential and you know I think he's well regarded and then you know Chris Rooney this hasn't been talked about a lot

But Chris Rooney was in a bunch of Stanley Cup finals right the last several years. Yes, he's been out since March with the rotator cut surgery, I believe and basically his year was shut down. Yeah. So you know right now in this round no McCauley no Rudy that's that's That's not nothing. Yeah. I mean, those are usually two of the guys that get pulled on all the time at this time here. Okay, a couple more questions. It's a couple on Jack Eichol, very interesting. And I know you touched on him in one of your rumbling columns, not too long ago.

There was one specifically from Tons Squad 42 about the Minnesota while. But I want to all broaden it because this one from Robert at Rebels Anonymous wants to know what teams have both the financial capability as well as the future. your assets to even make a Nykel deal. And it doesn't seem like there are a lot of teams that will qualify in both fronts. And I know you've touched on this a number of times, but I think it bears repeating because it does seem like the talks about a potential move for Jack Eicholada of Buffalo. They aren't going away. And as we get closer, we're a month out from the expansion draft now.

To me, and I think you've mentioned this, but the Los Angeles Kings would be one of those teams. But I think it's fair, right? There aren't a lot of teams that can step to the table. and make a deal like this happen? Well, first of all, I think it's 99% that Jack Eiffel gets dealt this offseason. I just think that's a divorce that needs to happen for both sides.

And as I wrote last week, the conversations have really taken a next level step between the Sabres and other team. Now, beyond that, you've got to be careful because now we're getting into what we're hearing. And certainly Minnesota is involved, LA, I think Anaheim to some degree. Columbus has the three first round picks,

but I don't know that they're willing to overpay at this point, giving their own issues. They have to trade Seth Jones probably. Who else am I missing? He still makes sense for the Rangers, even though David Quinn's not there anymore, but he still makes sense down the middle for the Rangers. And so, you know, and then there's other teams,

but certainly one of the things that I'm picking up on as I try to poke away at it is that I think Sabres GM Kevin Adams and his conversations with team so far has really gone the future's route, which is not insignificant. Because one of the

things I was wondering about in a Jack Heiko deal is whether he was, the Sabres would simply try to get pieces for now and kickstart this in a hurry. Or are they willing to use this trade to do yet another reset, which by the way might be the best route despite

the pain of it for that market. and I think from what I'm hearing so far is that it smells like a reset that it does smell like the Sabres are asking for the top prospect or two from each organization plus a first round pick and that's the type of conversation

that's happening right now which is interesting because that's significant all right one more we'll do this from Gundam Reed and who's the most interesting free agent in this offseason? And there are a bunch. There's a lot of interesting names out there.

I'll tell you who I think it is, and only because, of course, they're a magical playoff run right now, and I was talking about this off air with my TSN colleagues, Dave Pullen and James Duthy last night at TSN. What is Philip Denoworth? I was just going to say,

honestly, it's true, that was my name. Yes. So intriguing to me, he might be one of the most unique players in the NHL right now, that there isn't a lot of offense there in his game these days. There was a bit more before when him and Gallagher and Tatara the last few years were the dominant lines were the dominant lines of the AFs. But now that Suzuki and Kok and Yamie have developed, he really has become that shut down center, fewer offensive opportunities for him. But an unbelievable defensive center. Like he just, he's shutting down guys left and right in these playoffs again.

And, but what is that worth in today's NHL economy? I, like, I'm fascinated by what happens there. A, I think, you know, despite the fact that contract talks broke off last fall between the Havs and and Deneau and it felt like the end, I'm guessing this playoff run will at least invite another effort there for the Havs and the Nile. But if not, if he does go to market, I'm going to be so intrigued by what the analytics in every front office are telling their GMs that this guy is worth because there's got to be some worth. This is going to sound like an idiot when I say this, but the guy doesn't produce a lot of

offense, but he takes a way, takes a goal off the board every night from the top players in the world. Right. So, so what is that number? Is it four million a year, five million a year? I don't know. It's fascinating to me. Yeah. Well, and especially because it's sound, and you know, Correct me if I'm wrong whether you reported this, but I know there were reports that he had turned down an offer. That's before the start of last season. And yeah, and you're right because it is hard to get your arms around because he's not, like he's not like a Mark Stone or Alexander Barkoff. I'm thinking of the Selky, you know, the guys at the top of the Selkee list. He's not that guy.

But oh my gosh. I mean, there is no way to quantify, I don't think. He has valued in Montreal. He takes virtually every single defensive zone draw. And he almost, well, he didn't win them all, but he is an integral part to a team one win away from going to the Stanley Cup final. Is he ever?

And, you know, he's actually now found, and he probably, I think it took him a while last year to understand where this was all headed or accept where this was all headed, but he's where he should be on a good team. like Suzuki now is the number one offensive center for this team. Kockeniyami is developing into a fine two. But Dino still plays huge minutes.

So I hate to even call him a three, but he's not getting the off. His offensive role is no longer there. And so, you know, but it's working out great because matchup wise now you're like I think when Deno was the number one center on that team, that's when you knew that team wasn't very good. To be very plain. Yeah. And so it is interesting. And by the way, the report was actually from that.

in the off season that according to La Paris that he had turned down a long-term offer of five million a year. Now, I will tell you that that has never been confirmed to me from either side, but I certainly trust the reporting. So, you know, he was coming off a decent offensive year from last year, again, when his role was different. Yeah. So, you know, is five million a year still there? I honestly don't know. It's interesting. Yeah. All right.

Just before we go, I just want to take a moment and acknowledge the passing of Tom Curvers before we wrap up here. And I know, you know, you and I both cross paths with Tom over the years and can't think of a better person. And it just sad, man, just so sad. And I met Tom. The very first time I met Tom was when Wayne Kretzky was coaching the coyotes. And Tom was with the coyotes organization. And I ended up at Mike Barnett's house. He was the GM at the time.

And one of the executives with the coyotes, I think he was a GM. And Tom was there and just that started some, you know, we had, we talked many, many times, Pierre. And often we would talk about things completely unrelated to hockey. He talked about books, it would shows. we were watching. And then, of course, we talked some hockey. But anyway, good, good man. And I feel so badly for his family. So, I was heartbreaking. And fuck cancer, if I don't mind saying that. I used to love running into Tom and NHL press boxes and picking his brain about different articles I was thinking of writing. And he had a great vantage point about whether he

thought I was off base or not. And just thoughtful, thoughtful human being. And, yeah, that was sad. Yeah. All right. Good thought for Tom and his family on this day. And then what else we got going on? John Vogel, speaking to the Buffalo Sabers of the Athletic, joins Craig Custin's and Sean Gentilly on the Athletic Hockey Show. What else do we got here? Five days a week, the athletic hockey show, Mondays with Ian Mendez and Haley Salvean. Tuesday, Craig Custin, Sean Gentilly, Wednesday. Well, you know that. That's you and I, my friend. Thursday, Ian Mendez, and down goes Brown. I love that. Friday, the Prospect series with Max Boltman and Corey Promin.

That's a new show. That's really good. Time. Yes, very. Check out our comment section for each podcast episode at The Athletic app and rate and subscribe to the athletic hockey show on Apple. If you aren't already a subscriber, go to theathletic.com slash hockey show and receive a subscription for $3.99 a month. Pierre, that was great. Grista, really fun as always to catch up with you.

friend and by next week we're going to be in the Stanley Cup final and I'm pumped for it so good work by you. Right on, right on.