The Athletic Hockey Show - Ron Hextall on the Penguins resurgence, Tim Peel disciplined by the NHL & the latest on the NHL Trade Deadline

Episode Date: March 24, 2021

Scott and Pierre have the Athletic Hockey Show, Two Man Advantage edition, discussing the breaking news from the NHL that Tim Peel will no longer officiate NHL games because of comments made about the Nashville Predators which were captured on a hot mic in last night's Red Wings, Predators game. The guys take a look at how active the NHL trade deadline will be, with the big day, less than 3 weeks away with thoughts on what Anaheim, Nashville, the New York Islanders, Philadelphia and Toronto will attempt to do by April 12.Ron Hextall, the general manager of the Pittsburgh Penguins joins the show to talk about his first month on the job in the steel city. Hexy discusses working with Brian Burke, being around Sidney Crosby, having the chance to get back into a GM job, and knocking out 4 of Mario Lemieux's teeth.All this, plus another round of 'Ask the Dorks' with great questions on Patrick Marleau, Anaheim Ducks and the Canadian quarantine. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey, everybody, Scott Burnside here with another edition of Two Man Advantage, part of the Athletic Hockey Show's vast podcast network. I like to say vast podcast network here. Do you feel that? Do you feel the importance when I say that? Do you set up straighter in your chair when I say that? I'm actually standing. My wife caught me one of those desks things where you pull up so you can stand while you type. And so I'm standing as we do this.

And I'm wearing my athletic hoodie. Nice. I had mine on earlier today. I go for a walk every morning here in suburban Atlanta. Jump a little rope. I have my hoodie on. And I'm pleased to hear that you're standing because I did have this feeling for some of our podcasts that you might have been fully reclined. And confirm her to honor.

Who was a beatwriter and another sport who got caught. I think it was an NBA beatwriter who got caught by one. of the head coaches doing a a zoom avail in bed. And I guess he had his video one. And I mean, hey, as long as the video is off, you should be able to relax while you ask questions, right? That's true. That's true. And you know, our good friend David Schultz, longtime reporter for the Globe Mail, I know he would.

Oh, my. I know he wouldn't even mind because it's a legendary story. Remember when he, those poor Toronto guys would always have to do morning hits when they were on the road with, the Leafs. And if you're out West, obviously, if you're on a Western swing, those morning hits are like really early in the morning. And David Schultz, they called him one morning. And between the time when the call went through and they actually went to air, he did, I think, go back to sleep. So that was, you know, stuff happens. And I'm always, I never worry that you've gone back to sleep, although some of my questions are long enough that you could have a nap

before you, you answer. Yeah. No, I don't get sleepy during some of your long questions. I just forget what you're asking. There's a difference. So, yeah. Okay, so great show we're going to have today. And I'm so excited, Ron Hextall, GM of the Pittsburgh Penguins, is going to join us in a little while. We're going to take some questions from our listeners and readers.

I'm always pumped for that. I look forward to it. And we're going to get to some news off the hop here. And in fact, I'm literally holding my phone. my friend, with a press release that the NHL has sent out indicating that veteran NHL referee, Tim Peel, will no longer be working NHL games after he was caught with a hot mic last night making comments about him. His view of how he was calling the game and a penalty he wanted to assess the National Predators. he no longer will be working NHL games now or in the future.

And that's that's a swift and obviously very severe reaction to an unfortunate moment that got caught and it shouldn't have been said. And it did get said and it got caught live on a mic. And now Tim Peel is no longer working NHL games. We tend to have breaking news every time we take this every Wednesday. So sometimes after the fact, which is no good. But usually when we're doing it, yeah, that's a big deal. You know, I thought maybe it was headed towards a suspension, but this is much tougher.

And, you know, this is a ref that was well respected and that, you know, had reft all kinds of international hockey and a lot of Stanley Cup playoffs. But, you know, the integrity here of the game clearly paramount in this decision. decision. We should read the statement from Colin Campbell, the executive vice president and head of hockey ops. He said, nothing is more important than ensuring the integrity of our game. Tim Peel's conduct is a direct contradiction to the adherence to that cornerstone principle that we demand of our officials and that our fans, players, coaches, and all those

associated with our game expect and deserve. There is no justification for his comments, no matter what the context or its intention, the National Hockey League will take any all steps necessary to protect the integrity of her game. So really strong. Yeah. So next step, just like it would be with a player,

is I guess I wonder what the officials association will make of this, right? Right, yeah. And so we'll see with that. But it's, you know, I thought he would be suspended for the season and then they would sort of make a decision after the year is what I thought. And listen, it's, you know what? And you and I talk about officials sometimes. And I like how, you know, we don't, I think you and I are of the same mind.

It's a really hard job. It's easy to criticize them. I have over the years been disappointed sometimes in the NHL's, the overall standard, how games get called, how it's different in game one or two. two in October and different in game seven and playoffs. That has been annoying. And I know it's problematic for owners and executives around the NHL, but it's a hard, hard job.

And you and I both know Tim Peel. And so I feel, I feel kind of sad by it. But I do think, man, it's such a strong statement from the NHL. And it must have been a hard, hard decision to make in the sense that he is so well respected. But, man, it's so important to have the notion that. that the game gets called based on what happens on the ice, the actual interplay between players on the two teams and not about evening things up or that you felt that you either missed something or maybe made a call early that you

you wished you hadn't, so you have to even it up. And what it did, I think with that kind of comment is reinforces that there is this sort of internal evening up. And that's not how it should be. So I don't know whether it changes how the game gets officiated. I don't know whether it changes how people view how the game is officiated. I think it'll change what you're saying when you're wearing a mic. But by the way, I should correct something I said.

I was reminded from a tweet just now from Frank Cerarelli, my colleague at TSA. Tim Peel was supposed to retire after this year. So kind of a moot point. I was saying I thought he'd be suspended for the rest of the year. But in fact, both are the same. So it would have been more interesting if it was a younger ref. Right. Because then it's like are you taking his entire career away if it's a 30-year-old guy who had many years ahead of him?

But Tim Peel was set to work his last game, I think, April 24th, according to Frank. So that makes the decision a little easier, to be honest. Yeah. And it does. And my understanding of how the NHL's protocols for retiring officials is that they don't work NHL playoff games, that that's if you have. Right. Because it's easier to plan, although in this world with no fans, but usually it's because you can plan your last game with friends and family and attendance and make it a big deal, whereas you can't predict them, obviously a playoff series. So that's why those guys normally rough a regular season game as their last game.

Right. But yeah, Tim people won't get that chance. Yeah, that's unfortunate. But a good lesson learned, I would think. Yeah, and as you said, Scotty, like, let's be honest, we've always assumed. that there's even up calls. And that never bothered me to be honest. I mean, it's kind of wrong, but I don't know. Like the older I get in life, I kind of accept things.

You know what I mean? And so I just always assumed that was the case, but it doesn't mean you should be saying it with wearing a mic. That's pretty dumb. And paying the price now. True, true that. All right, let's move on before we get to Ron Hexall, as promised less than, I have to do my math in the head, like two and a half weeks to the NHL trade deadline.

I talked to a GM the other day when we were talking about the trade deadline. And it's such a great time for fans and for the media and we have lists and potential trades. But I'm curious what you are hearing because this GM is. was like, I think, I don't think anything's going to happen, basically. Like, of course, you're going to be very quiet. And it, every day, it becomes a little bit more, it becomes murkier, murkier, more murky, because of postpone games. And we'll get to the North Division in a minute.

But postpone games, you've got teams, you know, sort of jumping back in and then falling back. Like, I'll just, I'll mention the National Predators coming off a win against the Detroit Red Wings. And everyone has been, you know, is Mattias Ekholm. He's the top guy and everyone's trade board and who wouldn't love to get that veteran defense and all those kinds of issues. But the Preds are now, well, they're four points back to Chicago. They played the same number of games as a Blackhawks.

And to me, like Columbus, I think, they're a team that if you get in the playoffs, given how those rosters are built, why not? And we know from Columbus, if you get in, hey, the door opens, right? So I guess my point is that for all the talk, that the potential for fireworks on trade deadline on April 12th, I just feel that we could be in for a little bit of fireworks letdown. Well, and again, I wrote that column a couple of weeks ago. And I know it's not what people want to hear because fans get excited by trades. Hey, I get excited by trades. I mean, we pay some bills at TSN by trades. Trade Center, which TSN really invented years ago.

you know but i wrote that along like i wanted to get ahead of it and just say hey this is not shaping up to be fun and um i got to tell you i talked about six team executives over the last three days who said they got nothing going that they've never had this quiet less than three weeks out and there's a number of factors i mean um you know one as one gm pointed out to me one of the inherent appeals when you go to your owner and say, let's add this guy for the stretch run, is that if it means an extra playoff game or two, by improving your roster, that's extra coin in your pocket. Well, there's either no fans in some team's buildings or limited fans and others, there is no playoff revenue. So that's a big factor, to be honest, and it's one that doesn't get talked about

a lot. Number two, the expansion draft continues to have an impact, and interestingly, almost more so than I feel like the Vegas one did. But teams may be learning from being held for ransom by Vegas in 2017, teams are super nervous about complicating their protection list issues, like contending teams, playoff teams, right? Yeah. I mean, you would think the idea of perhaps one more move when you win the cup would trump whatever expansion draft decision you have, but I'm not hearing that a lot. So that's another factor.

The pandemic. I mean, you just have some owners. I think we're saying, you really need to justify to me why we're adding money to payroll, even if it's not that much by the end of the year. That has tied some hands. Two-thirds of the league in LTIR. So there is no cap room, flat cap. Teams protecting their cap space, Julian Breezeboe made that comment in my column last week.

Teams around the league are protecting their cap space like they never have before at a level that he's never seen. And he should know because he had to find Ottawa as a trading partner. before the season to get out of cap hell, but it's at a higher premium than it's ever been. And the reason I bring that up is that normally when you're a seller, you know, you'll pretty much do anything to make that deal work so you get the best possible return, right? Right. But now you've got a lot of sellers saying, well, we don't want any money back.

So that's complicated thing. So I can go on and on. There's a number of factors which just amount to making this a much more difficult trade market, which is why it's going to be quiet overall, I think. Now, there's still teams who are adamant they're going to make a move. I mean, Lou La Merello has $7 million burning in his pocket from Anders Levy and out for the year. And it's so unlike him to literally come out publicly and say, I'm going to be aggressive and go out and get it forward. So you know he will.

So that's going to happen, you know. Toronto has been pretty public, you know, Kyle Dubas, you know, they've been talking about forwards, but they've been looking at everything. So, you know, there's obviously pressure on the Leafs to finally, went around for the first time since 2004, and they're all in, and they want to make a move or moves, plural. So they'll be aggressive. You know, I think Boston, the shoe's going to drop in Boston, in my mind, maybe a little more tentative, Don Sweeney, but I think they're going to make a move or two. So we're not saying there aren't going to be moves. It's pretty clear that some of these teams are going to do everything they can to make it happen. But in terms of the totality, the volume,

already we've seen it. We don't have to wait till April 12th. By now in a normal trade season, we would have had more moves than we've had now. Like one month out, the moves start. We have not had that. And there's a lot of frustrated teams. I mean, just read my duck story this week

and see quotes from Bob Murray, the GM. At that point when we spoke, and obviously that changes it one phone call, but when we spoke on Monday, he had nothing. And he's a clear seller. So let's see where this goes. But I think overall the volume is down this year, no question.

So you raised an interesting point and I hadn't really thought of it. But I wonder if you, A, of course, with the continued border restrictions, bringing a player from one of the 24 American-based teams into Canada is just adds another complete layer of difficulty, which is why I'm curious to see how Kyle Dubus, as you mentioned, how he navigates this. Because you've got to get ahead of it if you're bringing a player into the North. If you're bringing a player from the states in, you've got to get ahead of this or else the potential impact is going to be negated by or potentially negated by a two-week quarantine, all those issues. But I'm also curious whether you think because as we move along here and more and more fans are going to be allowed into American-based arenas. Now, I don't know whether we're going to get to full houses, but I'll tell you, you know, the vaccine situation in the United States is vastly different than any of the. is in Canada. For sure.

It is. And we may get to a point where there may be arenas that are, if not at capacity, then at a decent, you know, the return of fans will be accelerated in the American arenas. And I wonder if you think that there might be American owners just to your point who say, you know what? It's actually, I don't want to spend too much money, but we are having fans and it's going to be okay, especially if we make it to the second round of the playoffs, we look like we could have full building.

Maybe that loosens things up there. I don't know. I don't know because I also think that part of these owners haven't made money for a year. Right. You know, so that's still there no matter what. Yeah, but who knows? And I also think at the end of the day, it just takes one trade in your division,

especially since the playoffs are divisional, right, this year? Yep. Where your competitive juices get going. Like, you know, I quote, to Julian Breasbaud last week saying he's probably not doing anything because of his cap situation, which is legitimate. But what if Florida or Carolina makes a big move? You know the wheel will be turning with Julian Breiswell, right? So that's always the element that we count on come to trade deadline is those competitive juices. You made a move. I got to make a

move, which, by the way, isn't always necessarily the right way to go. It shouldn't probably be, but we've seen it is what I'm saying. You feel that internal pressure as a GM that your rival just did something and you're worried that he's got a leg up now. I mean, you know how I feel about the deadline. And while I love it for business, I think it's completely overrated in terms of deciding who wins the cup every year. And it's funny, going back to Brisewell, he made an interesting point. He said, you know, obviously he's getting a lot of credit for Coleman and Gujarra last year, the deadline, and their immense playoff roles for the cup champions. But Grispoe mentioned, you know, three months off between the pause of the season and the bubble,

and who knows how important that probably was because all those Tampa players hung out together during the pause, right? And so you don't know what it would have been like had there not been a pause. Would those players have without those three months to get to know their teammates? Would they have gel just as quickly in time for the playoffs? Hard to know. It's an interesting point, though.

Yeah. Well, and we, you know, when you look at some of the players, that's the benefit if you can add a player with term because you're right. Sometimes it doesn't work right away. I think of Carolina and I think of Vincent Trocheck, who, you know, even though I think he's out of the lineup right now, but he has been outstanding for a very good Carolina team this year. But he was only okay, let's be honest. Right.

He was trying to find his way, right? Right. And he wasn't fully healthy at all those kinds of things. But the benefit for Don Waddell and McCain's is being felt this year as opposed to last year, you know, months after the trade deadline. And I think, you know, Blake Coleman, who, you know, it took him a long time, you know, his regular season wasn't great, but to your point with the pause and then he was so good during the playoffs. Pajot with the Islanders, again, you know, he took him a while to find that groove. He's a really important part of that team moving forward and why

they're a Stanley Cup contender. So yeah, you're right. The short term is often, you know, it just, can be disappointed and it can color your view of a trade because it often takes that time. Yeah, and we should mention, because I didn't address it, you talk about Caldoubis and the leaps and the quarantine. I mean, clearly Caldoubis is hoping for a decision by the federal government here soon that cuts down the 14 days to hopefully seven days for the Canadian teams. That would, I mean, that would have a pretty big impact, right? Yeah.

But I have to imagine without having spoken to anyone about this, but just using my own read on it. The situation with a bunch of all Canadians now and then being shut down, first Canadian team to be shut down because of COVID, that has to give the Canadian government pause. Like in my mind, if you're making this decision, again, and we're not getting vaccinated at the same level, I mean, my 78-year-old mother-in-law finally getting vaccinated today, array. Yes, but that's where we're at. It's a lot slower in Canada. And so, So, you know, Havs being shut down the optics and, you know, politicians are politicians, too. Let's be fair.

I don't know if now, if the paying government would be willing to cut down on that quarantine. We'll see. But they got to know soon. I mean, every day is a day in this trade deadline period. Like, I mean, I'm sure you agree. My sense is the leash would have wanted to already have their forward by now. Yep. So before, you know, we're going to chat with Ron Haxoll in a few minutes.

But I'm curious, the Leafs are so fascinating to me because, you know, like they played so well for so long. And, you know, we talk about Austin Matthews. Is he a heart trophy guy? And is this the year? And, you know, if they add a top nine forward and maybe a depth guy in the blue, whatever it is. But what is the story now? It's the story is now the goaltending is broken. Like what's up with Freddie Anderson?

Although Jack Campbell is a great story. I know. Well, I'm curious what you make of that. Because I'm like, I look at that. And there's so many moving parts of this because Freddie Anderson being in a contract here, is he, you know, what is the future of goaltending for the Maple Leafs? There isn't an obvious error apparent to the, the goaltending position there. So, you know, what happens to Freddie Anderson as he comes to the end of his contract? And he hasn't, you know, I think, I don't think he's been that bad, but hasn't been great.

And you're right. Jack Campbell is a great story. But is Jack Campbell the guy who gets the lease where they haven't been able to get to, even to win a single round? Is he the guy to do that? Well, well, well, maybe he's Toronto's Jordan Bennington. I don't know. I'm just being silly. Yeah, maybe.

No one saw Jordan Bennington coming. Here's the thing. Like, I am a staunch believer that you don't fix your goaltending before the trade deadline. Agreed. You can add insurance. but, you know, I didn't mind Vegas adding Robin Leonard because Marcondry Flurry was being overtax last year, but that's not fixing. That's just adding insurance.

You know, I think the Colorado Avalanche, despite getting Johansson, it was more of a three in my books, I think they need to go out and get a veteran backup because they need to be a francuse. So that's assurance. That's fine. But the idea of replacing Freddie Anderson, this late in the season is ridiculous to me. Like, I just think, and maybe I'm biased because the Ryan Miller experiment, when he was still one of the top five goalies in the world and not traded from Buffalo to St. Louis at the deadlines a number of years ago. Yeah.

And that experiment flop. I just think for starting goalies, it's so much harder. We talk about players adjusting at the deadline to their new surroundings. I think it's incredibly hard on mid-minders. And I think you fix your goaltending every summer. Or you decide what your goaltending is every summer. That's the window. And when the Leafs decided to bring back Anderson on an expiring deal in the fall,

after taking some calls from teams, then that's when they made their decision for the 2021 season in my mind. Now, hey, if they go out and trade for Jonathan Quick or whoever else, hey, good on him. We'll see how it works. But I think it's crazy to go down that road. I honestly think you have to sink or swim now with Anderson and Campbell. All right.

Let me ask you this question. I'll start tomorrow. And I know that Freddie Anderson's been dealing with a lower body injury, but let's assume he's healthy. Your Sheldon Keith, who's the starter in game one against the, let's call it the Montreal Canadiens. Today it be Montreal, yeah. Yeah, so let's call it. Healthy goalies. So I think he goes seniority with the short leash. So you go Anderson, knowing that Jack Campbell's in the bullpen ready to go. I think if you flip. the script. Now, again, a lot can change me down and then. If Jack Campbell goes on a 10-0 run here in the next couple weeks, then that changes my answer. Sure. Yeah. Today.

But if Anderson gets back on a roll here and then we're talking about the playoffs in mid-May, I think you've got to start with the veteran knowing that the bullpen door is loose. And you'll have no hesitation. Because I think if you flip it, it creates this huge story before game one that maybe you don't need. I'm fascinated by how this unfold. Because you're right, there's so many layers to it. And there's so much at stake, right? I mean, there is a huge amount at stake for this Toronto team.

There's a lot, you know, pressure on Dubas, pressure on Keith, and clearly the pressure on Freddie Anderson. Again, I just don't think he's been that bad. I just think they've hit us patch where, you know, where they look like the Leafs of the last three or four years, you know, kind of a mess in their own zone sometimes and, you know, having to rely on offense to, to bail them out.

And that hasn't how they played, that wasn't how they played for much of the first half where I thought they were much better defensively and looked like a team that you want to have going to the playoffs. And I thought they matched up well against any of the teams. Yeah. Like I don't know if they've been that much better defensively. I think what they've been better at is not panicking in low event games. It just used to be that this group wanted to play a certain style offensively.

And if they didn't get that type of game script, they used to really. used to make them come undone. And that was, to be honest, the scouting report on them from opposing teams when I would talk to coaching staffs is to get them in those low-end games and see them crack. I think the real positive this year, and I guess you could argue it's because they're better defensively. So maybe semantics and we're both saying the same thing. But what I really think is it's just a comfort level that they now know how to win the two-one game and not feel like they need to force it and make mistakes because of it. And that's a really positive sign for the leaves in my mind. Yeah, good point.

As promised, joined now by Ron Hextall, Ron Hextall, GM of the Pittsburgh Penguins. Ron, I have to ask you, do you sometimes wake up in the morning and have to remind yourself, oh, yeah, I am the GM of the Pittsburgh Penguins? Or is it, are you fully immersed now? Are you like, yep, no, this is who I am. This is my identity now. I'm immersed now, but I can't honestly tell you that.

A couple weeks ago, I had to wake up every morning and look at the shirt I was wearing. The jacket I just threw on. So, yeah, it's been a transition, but I got to tell you that I've been treated so well here. The people have been terrific. And, you know, the employees around here are great. The facilities are great. So it's been a good transition for sure. And Ron, such an interesting and unique.

situation, I think, in terms of your entry to that organization, because, you know, normally, 99% of the time when a GM takes over a team, it's because, you know, the team has underperformed, someone got fired, you're usually in cell mode, you know, all the normal traits of taking over a team. This is quite unusual. I mean, I mean, you know, Jim Rutherford stepped down. The team was in a playoff spot. No one saw it coming. So, you know, I'm, listen, they're going to be. be changes because there are going to be changes, but the penguins have played some pretty good hockey. So how unusual it is, is it to come in with some ideas that you obviously have for both the short and long term? At the same time, hey, let's not get in a way of letting this team win games this year. It was unusual for sure. I mean, even coming in mid-season, I've never done that before. So you come in and things are going 100 miles an hour and you're trying to figure things out. So that was an experience in itself. And then, yeah, coming into this situation, hats off to Jimmy.

Obviously, we left a very good team that's having some pretty good success. So hopefully we can continue on and try to make ourselves better here. Ron, I'm just curious, just piggybacking on Pierre's question. Like, how do you set a list of priorities when you come in And like you say, in an unusual season, 56 games, things are going a million miles an hour. Like, do you, is it like, okay, I got to sit down and talk to Mike Sullivan and his staff. I need to talk to our scouting staff. I need to talk to Sidney Crosby and Chris LaTang and get their view of things.

Like, how do you make sure that you're doing what you want to do in the right order that you want to do? Because things are constantly in motion. And not to mention, of course, we're, you know, approaching an April 12. trade deadline. So how do you, how do you keep track of all that stuff and make sure you're doing what you want to do in the right order? Yeah, it's been, you know, typically you prepare for a season. You start when the previous season is over and you start to prepare for the next season. So it is definitely unusual. Just honestly, the first few days trying to figure out who everybody in the office is and what

they do and their coaching stops and their duties and the trainers and the players and trying to get named a face, especially wearing these masks all around the locker room. It's hard to even get to know people and know their faces. So there's been a lot of details. I'm glad Berkey's here to help me out. We try and figure out who everybody is and what they do. But I will say Patrick Alvine is here, and he's been a real blessing for both of us just in terms of walking us through the organization and how they work,

how it's operated up until now. and we certainly don't want to change anything mid-season. And we'll learn from some of the ways that the Greenland's organization has operated and hopefully enhance it along the way here. You know, you mentioned the trade deadline, or I guess Scotty did. You know, can you describe what you think the general needs are right now, Ron, for this team? And, you know, keeping in mind, too, that, you know,

there have been draftics traded away in the last couple of years. How do you balance the fact that you got a team that has a chance and yet sort of balancing the short and the long term here. Yeah, we're trying to walk that fine line. We'd like to upgrade. We'd like to make our team better, but we certainly don't want to throw too many pieces away in the future years.

So we'll see what comes along, but if we get an opportunity, we don't have a lot of cap space either. So we get a little bit of a juggling act to do here, but we'll do the best weekend and hopefully be able to improve our team. Our biggest need right now, we've got milk and gut hurt. and Teddy Blugher got hurt.

So our biggest need right now is at center. So it makes sense that came along. We certainly look at it again. We don't have much cap space, so we'd have to manipulate some things. But we'll see where it goes and figure things out as we go along here. Ron, you mentioned Brian Burke. Part of the unusual element of what has transpired in Pittsburgh this year

is Brian coming into a new position as the head of hockey ops to work alongside you. And I wonder, you know, again, that's, that's a relationship that you have to sort of define and figure out who's doing what. And I wonder what that part is like for both you and Brian, because it strikes me that you both have, you have fairly distinct personalities. Yeah, you know what, he's been great to work with. I will say this. I knew Berkey probably like everybody else knew him, not certainly working for him. He's been, terrific to work with. He's, believe it or not, he's easy to work with. You know, we, we talked at the start before we, I think, certainly before I took the job and how we were going to, if things got,

you know, Harry, where I wanted X and he wanted Y, how we're going to do it. He says, well, we'll just sit down for a beer and reason and we'll come to it. And, and despite what people might say, I'm a pretty reasonable guy. And so we'll, we'll come to, to a consent. us on the things that we disagree with. And we get Patrick here and Chris Pryor to help us out. So we've worked real well together so far. Our thoughts, a lot of our thoughts are similar. And he's got some good thoughts, and I like to think I do too.

And we're both open to ideas from other people, including, like I said, Patrick and Chris and the rest of our staff. What's it like, Ron, to have a conversation with Cindy Crosby after you become GM? And I mean, you know, you want to get to know each other, but also just the fact that the place that he has held in our game over the past 15 plus years. I mean, what's it been like for you to in this COVID world that we're, you know, can't exactly, you know, go out for lunch together at a restaurant. But, but in, you know, in the traveling bubble that you guys have, what's it been like to try to get to know him? It is tough, as you mentioned, because we don't have meetings in a small office.

Sometimes I'm in a way or in a big room somewhere and have a quick conversation. So we've had those. I feel like to know him a little bit. I think the thing with Sid, like, Sid, I think, is meant as much to Pittsburgh as any hockey players ever meant to a city. You think about the Perman's organization, obviously, but you think of the city. He's meant a lot to this city and this organization. And obviously we hold him in high regard. The first practice that Bertie and I stood up and watched,

he couldn't believe his work ethic and his precision to his practice. His passes were all precise. Everything was right on the money. His one-timers, everything it was like it was a level I don't think that I've ever seen. And I play with a lot of really good players and a lot of really hard workers. So I think the other thing with Sid is his awareness of people around, of his teammates, fans, you know, one of our video quotes had a young baby and, you know, Sid signed a stick for him right away. He was a premature. Just his thought process for a guy that is, he's got so much.

on his plate and has so many people that want a piece of them, just his awareness of people around him is absolutely phenomenal. I'm curious, Ron, I mean, how important is it for you and for Brian as well, probably to have a relationship with Sid or with Evgeny Malcon or Crystal Tying that core group that's been there and been part of the three Stanley Cups won by that team? Or do you, is there by nature some separation that has to exist as the GM of that team? That, you know, how do you find that line, I guess? Yeah, for me, everybody, everybody's different.

Like, I'm, I like to have a professional relationship with the players. I like to be able to talk to players. I like the players to be able to come to me. But there is a, there is a, to me, again, a professional relationship. The players don't want me to come over their house for a party or whatnot. I would feel awkward being there. I'm not a player. I've been on that side of the fence.

But I do want to have a relationship really with the whole players. I want the players if there's a problem on the ice or in their lives, if they want to come to me. I'd be the first to try and help them out. So I do like that relationship with the players. It is tough right now because of the COVID protocols. But you mentioned the three guys, but I like that relationship. those three guys, but also, you know, the other, the other 20 guys as well.

Sure. I'm curious, Ron, you know, you went a while between the Flyers job and the Penguins job, and there's only 31, well, 32 jobs now with Ron Francis in Seattle. You know, did you have concerns at times about getting back in? I mean, I would think your resume would have given you assurance that you were going to get back. back in, but you're also a humble guy. I mean, I mean, what was that time like between the gigs in terms of introspection and self-analysis and all the things I know you guys do between jobs? Yeah, it was, it was interesting for sure because you're right.

You do, you do at times question, well, geez, am I going to get back in, but I got to be being forthright. And I told my wife, the last thing I'm going to do is sit and worry about getting a GM job because all you do is drive yourself crazy. So I worked for L.A. advising for Blakey and hockey ops there before this season because of COVID, I didn't travel out there. But I was traveling out there once every four or five weeks for a week and seeing the big team and a minor league team so that I would actually spend some time down in Florida.

So I was going to the Panther game. So I kind of kept myself busy enough where I wasn't thinking about it. then if something came along, so be it. But I didn't sit and waste my time worrying whether I was going to or not going to get a job. But, yeah, there were times where you wonder if you're going to get back in or not. It's such a fascinating dynamic because we've talked to coaches who in between jobs, you know, they're building books on players and teams. And, you know, if I got this job, here's how I would present myself and my game plan,

those kinds of things. Can you do that as a potential GM? Like were you making notes? Were you building a book so that if someone called, you could come to the table and present something? Or does that make sense? Can you even do that? Well, I did.

Yeah, you can. You can study, right? You can study how teams are built. You can study drafts. You can study, you know, how important defense are compared to forwards. The cap disbursement between forwards. D and there's lots of things to do. So I did actually do some projects for L.A. there and, you know, you learn things and you study and you watch teams and you look at top teams and how they

were built. You know, Tampa's a good example. And I pretty much, you know, built from, for the most part through the draft and then added the, you know, finishing pieces that they needed to add, the Ryan McDonough and Coleman's and guys you had last year at the deadline. And they get a real nice job of building a team. Now, it took time. It took a lot of time, probably more time than the Eiserman and Julian wanted it to take, but they built a terrific team and now they're in their window and who knows how many they're going to win, but they got one. So there's lots of things you can do with your downtime and, you know, you watch hockey every night. So that's kind of you're studying there essentially as well if you're watching the game the right way.

And Ron, what experiences do you think you'll really tap into now as you transition this Penguins team over the next few years? I mean, you helped DeLombarnie built a two-time cup champion in L.A. really from the ground up. That was a long rebuild and it was methodical and it produced the ultimate. But also coming out of those championship years were some tough years, right? Those decisions of, you know, do we try to stay on top or do we start looking at the future? There's no easy book on that. And obviously, you know, the rebuild that you did in Philadelphia, which was also methodical and has produced a lot of good young players

that are playing right now in Philadelphia. How do you marry those experiences together right now for what's in front of you in the next few years? I've kind of had like, you know, prior to going to L.A., I was in Philly there, and we were a really good team and trying to get better every year. So I kind of had that experience, too. So I feel like I've had a lot of diverse experiences from, like you said, L.A.

where, you know, we rebuilt the infrastructure, the organization and the team. So that was a massive, obviously, job. Six years later, you won the Cup. So obviously, it was well worth it. Philly was a little different. We were more competitive. We made the playoffs two out of four years. And I think they're probably in a pretty good situation right now with young

players and then coming to Pittsburgh's a different experience. This is more like years ago in Philly, okay, how can we how can we make this team better? But we've also got to keep our eye on the future. So we're not, I don't anticipate trading, you know, first round picks in the next few years here to try to make us better. But we're going to, we're going to do everything we can to try to add a piece to make us better with the cost not being too, too high. Ron, we're going to let you go, but I want to leave you with this question. And I think people automatically, of course, assume that think of you with your long connection to the Philadelphia Flyers, both as a player and executive. But you do have, you do have roots in that Pittsburgh community. You were there as a

young boy. And I wonder since you've taken the job, have you heard from people when, you know, when you used to live there with your dad and your family? Or are there moments since you've come to Pittsburgh where you're like, oh, okay, that's kind of, you know, there is sort of a full circle kind of thing going on here. Or what does that part been like for you? It's definitely been full circle. And quite frankly, the familiarity is almost a little bit eerie. Like the steel building, for example, it's UPMC now.

But when I was a kid, it was a steel building. And it's a massive skyscraper here. And it's kind of a landmark. and like I was, I think I was nine when we moved out of pet, but I still remember the steel building. I have had a couple friends reach out. One still lives here and is a season ticket holder and another lives in Connecticut. So like I said, I was nine and I still have these guys reaching out to me. So it's pretty neat.

Once COVID's over, I do hope to get together with both. and Willow McDonald reached out to me as well, who is apparently still in the area. I was, his father played for the penguins back when my dad did. So, yeah, it's been, it's been amazing. And just, I mean, remembering back to when my dad was with the penguins, being in the old civic arena. So it's been, it's been really neat in a lot of ways.

And like I said, the staff's been great. I will say that in the practice, drink when I walked down the one of the big mural of Yager and Lemieux and coffee and Recky and all these guys. I have I have nightmares from your house. Other than that, it's been terrific. Yeah, that was a good rivalry boy. It still is, but that specific moment in time with you and those penguins, that was great. Well, it's a great way to, like, do you, when you chat with Mario, I mean,

Are there moments, like you, are there, are there Mario moments for you that when you run into the owner and ultimately your boss, I suppose, you're like, oh, okay, yeah, I don't like to think about that too much. Do you have some of those moments? I do. And actually, when I was on a call interviewing with Ron Berkel and Mario and David Morehouse, David reminded me that I actually not pour a Mario's teeth out. and Mario actually kind of, I think, stuck up for me a little bit. He said, well, it was a follow-through, and it wasn't very smart of me to come within that distance of you. And I said, Mario, listen, I said, with a catching glove, especially back in those days, it was pretty hard to hold your stick.

So once you shot, I mean, it just kind of, I actually felt bad about that, but thankfully, teeth are replaceable. That's awesome. That's great stuff. Well, listen, Ron, thank you so much for coming and hanging out with us and wish you all success in Pittsburgh. And look forward to, I speak for Pierre, look forward to the chance that the three of us may gather in the same arena sometime and chat over a coffee or something. But thanks for coming and spending some time with us today. Very welcome.

It's a pleasure. Okay. Thanks, Ron. All right, guys. That was outstanding, and I love the Mario's story to cap it all off. That's pretty glorious. And frankly, not a shock, right? When you think of Ron Hextall as a player that he took out some Mario's teeth,

I'm sitting here going, yeah, that's a, yeah, no surprise there. I guess the only thing that could top a current day relationship after the rivalries of that area would be if Ron Hextall and Chris Jellios were working together. But after the, it was it the 89 conference final in Montreal, Philadelphia, yeah. you know in just a great interview a lot of great insight there from from ron hextall and he dropped a little nugget there for us which is that he's looking for help at center given the injuries that that they have right now so that's that's the area that they're looking at and you should be able to go out and get you know we're not talking I'm sure he's really talking

about you know depth and and more on the bottom six end of things but that would make sense for them for sure and and I got to tell you I I am surprised by the penguins this year. I had them out before the year. I had the Islanders and Flyers battling for first place in that crazy division, so I'm only half right on that one. I had Washington in, I had Boston in, but I thought that the penguins, the window, was going to start to shift on them,

and that they would just miss out by a few points. And that may still happen, but, boy, they're showing no evidence of slowing down right now. don't you think? Well, I'm with you. I didn't have them out necessarily, but I think in my list, I had six teams from the East going to the playoffs. Right. So you cheated. You cheated.

Yeah, I did cheat. No, but I didn't know. And frankly, I thought the goaltending would be more of an issue. And it has. It certainly was early on. But boy, they've righted the ship. They play defensively, they're a much more difficult team to play against. Yeah, as Ron mentioned, that malch and injury, if it last.

any length of time, that's real problematic because after a really slow start for Malk and he has really come around and, you know, that's a critical part of that team being in the playoffs. You know, of course, and here's one of the very few preseason predictions that are either going to come true or have the potential to come true is I said, I think we're going to see Pittsburgh, Washington. So I actually did have them in the playoffs. I said we would have Pittsburgh, Washington, part five in the playoffs this spring. And Caps and Islanders are, that's a tight race for top spot in the East Division. But it could very easily be Ovechkin Crosby. And what a great way to hopefully bring, you know, sort of as we come out of the, hopefully light at the end of the tunnel of this pandemic.

But that would be a pretty great way to have a playoff summer. with those two. But yeah, I think they have been impressive. And I want to ask you about Philadelphia. And again, I think a team that, you know, I liked the direction they were heading in and felt that Carter Hart was really ready to take another step forward. As, you know, I mean, I think a lot of us imagined him as part of that Canadian Olympic team in Beijing in 2022. And, you know, as we speak, a night after a disappointing loss to New Jersey down 4-1 that scored a couple late, but really didn't look good. And in fifth place, and even though there are only a couple points behind Boston, you know, play three more games, things are tough in Philly right now. And I'm surprised by that. Yeah, I am too. I really like that team, you know, right from midseason

last year before the pause entering this year, I just love the direction of the Flyers. And, you know, they've been one of the big surprises for the wrong reasons so far this year, in my mind. And I don't know that there's an easy fix right now. Like, I know everyone gets excited about the trade deadline and everything else. I mean, you don't have to go too far and deep into analytics to figure out what's going on. This is not an analytic. They are 30th in the league and goals against per game. They're allowing 3.52 goals against per game.

Only Ottawa is worse. Buffalo is actually better. And that's not just goaltending, but it's defensive play and everything. There's no question that Matt Niskin and surprise retirement has hurt them. Not to the extent that it explains the whole year. Of course not. It's just a small part, but it is a part because the Flyers in the offseason worked really hard at trying to replace him and phoned nearly every team in the league looking for a top four right-handed replacement

and weren't able to do it. And because it's not easy. Those guys don't grow on trees. And so they weren't able to do it. They've tried to cobble together around the rest of the group. But that has remained a glaring issue, I think, for them. And now, you know, I tweeted this today, Scott. Charlie O'Connor wrote, or Flyers, Pete Ryder, wrote a really good piece.

I thought examining the difficulty that Flyers are in now ahead of the deadline, and he's banged on. And, like, for me, it comes down to this. You know, they really, it makes no sense at this point for them to go out. and spend huge future assets on a rental, given that they're not assured of making the playoffs. That part is obvious. So the trade that would make sense is to go out and get a defenseman who is turned.

But that would also lead to some expansion draft complications. You know, so it's a tough position to be in. But certainly, bottom line for me is if you're Chuck Fletcher, any tangible move. I'm not talking about a death move for a fifth round pick. doesn't matter either way. But if you're making a tangible move ahead of April 12, it's got to be for a move that is almost like an off-season move as much as an in-season move, something that is still part of your roster come next season. Yeah. Well, you know,

and it's a great point. And it actually bleeds into some of the questions that we're going to try and address on our Ask the Dorks section here as we close out this podcast. But yeah, It'll be fascinating to see because, you know, to me, the Flyers are one of those teams that if they can shoulder their way into the top four, they have the potential to be a real handful, right? Like to me, there's so much, you know, to me it's different in the East than maybe anywhere else. But, you know, if you get in, that's, you know, like the difference I don't think between the Islanders and Washington at the top. And, you know, whether it's Philadelphia or Pittsburgh or however it shakes down, I think come playoff time, you can almost wipe the slate clean because there's a lot of veteran experience on all these teams. There's a lot of potential. So anyway.

Yeah, I don't think seating matters, especially in this year's playoffs where there's limited fans in the buildings. I mean, what the heck is home ice? Yeah. True. All right. Let's get to a couple of questions here. And this one sort of relate Because this comes from Jake Rudolph

And I know you mentioned Anaheim Ducks GM Bob Murray, you talked to Bob Murray He's curious about the rumblings Surrounding the Ducks You had mentioned Riccard Raquel I'm also curious because Bob Murray's got He's got some

You know sort of They're not young defensemen anymore But guys like Josh Manson Hampus Linton both have another year left on their deal They've got some young defensemen in the pipeline. He's got Kevin Chattonkirk under contract and Camfowler, of course. There's in some ways a potential logjam on that blue line. And maybe to your point, you know, team looking to add a defenseman with some term.

I mean, Bob Marie, I'm assuming, is going to be open to a lot of different things, whether it's a hockey trade or selling off potential rentals or whatever. But where do you think the ducks are in this process? Yeah, well, you don't have to assume. I mean, I quoted him in the piece. saying I'm listening on pretty much anything. He's pretty open-minded heading into this deadline, but he also was quick to add that he had nothing going on Monday when we spoke. So, and I think the tough part for Anaheim is that normally at this time of year, the players that are easier

to move are the rentals, and he doesn't really have any, you know, other than Ben Hutton, I guess. So he's looking at hockey deals, which again, are harder to do in season. I think the action player is actually up front. I think the action player is Ricard Raquel. He's got a year and a half left on his deal, a terrific two-way player, but I think absolutely movable if a team steps up, you know, and the kind of move that the ducks should be looking at, because this is all about continuing to transition this group to the next generation and what's not to be excited about when it comes to Zegris and drives it and so on. But, um, But it's been disappointing.

Like the group of so-called veteran players, you know, in their late 20s, you know, has not really answered the bell for his duct steam, right? Enrique, at times, Raquel, Cam Fowler, I think, has been better this year. But, you know, I think there's a lot of players that I think needed to bring this program to better places than they haven't there. So they're the really interesting position as a franchise. They draft really well. That's a, you know, a calling card of Bob Murray and his staff. So they're going to have another lottery pick July 23rd. So, you know, any move that they make before April 12th is the same move they would make come June or July, is what I'm saying.

An off-season time. Yeah, I agree. Interesting, though, because they do have some issues on the blue line with guys, you know, what is the future for Josh Manson there and Hamas Lindholm and both of them, again, with another year left, plus the guys they have under contract. And they had some, you know, some kids who are coming too. So interesting for the ducks. I honestly don't think they're, I watched them the other night.

Yeah, some nights it looks like they can't, you know, they can't score. And some nights that is the case. And then now with John Gibson hurt, they have trouble keeping the puck out of the debt. It's, yeah, it's not great for them. But I don't think they're all that far away, frankly, if they can, if they can get some, get healthy. How about this? Samuel Fleming.

This is an interesting question. He was reading Kevin Kurz, our great San Jose Sharks beat writer. And Kevin spoke briefly with Patrick Marlowe about his thoughts on the trade deadline and his future. He'd still like to keep playing. Knock on Wood has a chance to pass Gordy Howe's

all-time games record, played record in about a month or so. But he noted, Samuel Fleming, notes that Patrick Marlowe at 1,193 points, I think he's got four points this season, so a bit of a difficult slog for Patrick with the sharks this year. He wonders how imperative it is for him to have a good final push to get maybe to that 1,200 career points, for him to be a hockey hall of famer. I don't know about you. I think he's there already.

That's my gut. My guess is Patrick Marlowe is going to go to the Hall of Fame. But what do you think about all of that? Yeah. So if you talk about the two great sharks, you know, Joe Thornton's a slam dunk. Like we're not even having a conversation, right? Joe Thornton walks right in. I think with Patrick Marlowe, you do have to have the discussion.

And I'm not convinced that he would get in the first year of his eligibility. But I do believe he ultimately gets it. I think the numbers are all there. The durability. The offensive numbers, just a real consistent top line performer during his great years. I do think he gets in. And I think his, in many ways, I don't know if you agree with this, but Mark Recky eventually got in, right? In the hockey hall of fame, and I think there's two comparisons there between Recky and Marlowe.

Yeah, I think he's a hall of him. Interesting that Patrick Marlowe did not close the door in his conversation with Kevin Kurz about, you know, maybe by the deadline, you know, there's a guy who hasn't won a cup, you know, Olympic gold medalist times two. You know, his career is unbelievable. But he'd still love to, you know, he'd still love to get a ring. So it'd be interesting to see if something happens on that front between now and April 12th and, you know, conversations that he and Doug Wilson might have about that kind of move from our loss. So you think Joe Thornton is texting Calduvus every day?

Yeah, they've almost crossed paths, right? I mean, the whole Toronto thing and then... Well, that's just it. I mean, years ago when Lou Lamrello was still GM of the Leafs and Mike Babcock was head coach, Lamarillo and Babcock put the full court press on both Thornton and Marlow that summer. I forget what year that was. It must have been 16 or 17. I don't know.

Well, it kind of been 16 because the sharks just went to the cup finals. It must have been 7. 17 or 18. Yeah. And of course as the story goes, the leaks we're trying to get both, not just Marlowe at the time. And then they end up only getting Marlowe.

Joe stayed put for a couple of years in San Jose, where his heart certainly was. But now Thornton's in Toronto, Marlowe's in San Jose is kind of funny. Never say never, my friend. Never say never. All right. Just about time to wrap up here.

You should always check in with Craig Custin on his full 60 podcast. This week, 2018 women's hockey Olympic hero, Jocelyn Lamaro, of the U.S. is Craig's guest. Tom Lynn, NHL player agent, is Mike Russo's guest on Straight From the Source at The Athletic. Of course, Ian Mendez, Sean McIndoe, the Athletic Hockey Show on Thursday. And you should always check out our comments section for each podcast episode at the athletic app. and rate and subscribe to the Athletic Hockey Show on Apple.

If you aren't already a subscriber, honestly, who isn't? It just boggles the mind that you aren't. But if you aren't and you are listening in the United States, go to theathletic.com slash hockey show. And if you are listening, Canada, go to theathletic.com slash hockey show Canada and receive a subscription for just $1 per month. Go and do that right now.

And see what happens next week, my friend. But fine, fine work by you on this show. Yeah, and we didn't even talk about Montreal's situation, but we'll talk about it next week. That sounds great. Good work by you. Now you can sit down. You've been standing up this whole time.

Take a rest. Take the rest of the day off. I'm going to go for a long walk. Right on, right on.