The Athletic Hockey Show - Sens and DJ Smith: Something's Gotta Give, MacKinnon & Kucherov early Hart favorites and the Penguins hit rock bottom

Episode Date: December 18, 2023

Ian Mendes and Julian MacKenzie discuss the latest 4 game losing streak for DJ Smith's Ottawa Senators, Nathan MacKinnon and Nikita Kucherov, the early season Hart trophy favorites and Alex Ovechkin's season long power outage.Jay Caufield, the pre and post game show analyst for the Penguins on Pittsburgh TV stops by to talk about the head scratching season for the Pens, and Jesse Granger makes the case for Jack Eichel as a Hart Trophy candidate, Martin Jones getting more starts for Toronto in net and Jeremy Swayman for the Vezina Trophy.Subscribe to The Athletic Hockey Show on YouTube: http://youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowGift a 1-year subscription to The Athletic for $19.99 or a 2-year subscription for $39.99 when you visit theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show. Here we go and welcome to your Monday edition, The Athletic Hockey Show. It's Ian Mendez and Julian McKenzie with you exactly one week before Christmas Day, which makes me wonder if Julian McKenzie is done his Christmas shopping. Seven days till the 25th. I am proud to say I am 90% of the way. I don't know how you do your Christmas shopping.

I like to order gifts and have them shipped over to my house. But obviously, since I move from Montreal, what I do is I order them and then have them shipped over to my parents' place. And then I go home for Christmas and I deal with all the wrapping and bagging. And then we all enjoy Christmas. This year's going to be a bit weird because I'm just going to be with my mom and the rest of my family's in the Caribbean this time around. So the rest of my family is going to have. to only see their presence after I leave, essentially, and when they get back. But essentially, that's how it goes.

I'm 90% of the way through. I might have to do like one last, I might have to find one or two more gifts, but I'm pretty much done. You know what I love is that you said that you're in charge of wrapping your gifts and bagging them? Because we all know it's a gift bag. Don't act like you're wrapping. You're right.

I've done it. I just would much prefer to use a gift bag. I've wrapped it before. Yes, that's fair. I mean, I don't know. You get a gift bag. You get your, wow,

completely bliked on the name of the, of the tissue paper. You just put it in the bag, wrap it around a little bit. It's nice. It's easy. It's simple. Easy.

Exactly. It's the way to go. So yeah. Are you done your shopping? Yeah, like 90, same like you, 90% of it. I got to go get some stocking stuffers.

That's all I have left. Okay. All right. That's cool. At least. That's left. All right. So one week till Christmas,

um, can I, can I ask, can I start with this? Because I had to kind of write a rage column. So, you know, as Ottawa lost again,

you got to stop, you got to stop for one moment because between that and some other columns you've been writing last week, you have been on fire, my man. You have been on fire. Your hand must be hurting. Let's not even get into the anthem,

uh, think. Let's, Look, look it. We're seven days out from Christmas. Yes. I want to know if you're Ottawa,

can you change out the coach or are you now in the Christmas window? Oh, man. I don't know, man. Like, I thought there were so many other instances where they would have fired DJ Smith. But now they're losers of four in a row. There are how many games behind everyone else

because of the way their schedule set, management, it still seems. and I know you brought it up on different points, but they're more patient compared to what the fans have endured, which is such a fascinating difference between those two worlds. I would be surprised if they let him go. I'm not saying it's the wrong thing to do,

but considering what management has projected and the confidence they've thrown on DJ Smith, I would be surprised if they went through with it. it would tell me that all of the outside noise and the pressure would have finally gotten to them. And I'm also curious about what the players think too, right? I don't unless you would know better than anybody else, but I don't know if the players have completely tuned him out or if they want him gone. That plays a role in this too.

No, I don't think that they've tuned him out or they want him gone. I just don't think that everything's clicking right now. And you lose four games in a row last week. Like, what do you want? Like, like, I don't know what else there is to say. I really don't. I've written about it. It's exhausting.

I think it's unfair to DJ Smith, to be honest. Yeah. I think it's unfair to DJ Smith. Like, like this guy has become like a pinata in the marketplace. And everyone gets a swing. And at some point, they got to take care of that. And that's not on me in the media. That's not on the fan base.

That's on them not winning games. And, and you've put him in an uncomfortable position. where the next time they play at home is on Saturday against Pittsburgh, I don't want to hear people chanting for his, like two days before Christmas to fire him. That's not, that's, to me, that's inhumane.

You know, that's not cool. And, but I don't blame the fans for being super frustrated. I just, look, and I want to say one thing, nobody in the senator's organization, Julian,

has treated me personally with more respect and dignity than DJ, Smith in the last five years. And at some point, I am going to tell some stories about the way that guy treated me because he deserves a lot of credit for being a good human being. He really does, but it's not working right now. And I say that with the utmost respect. For him, like, I now worry about him as a human being, Julian. It, like, you know, it's not fair. Like, he's become a pinata on social media. And I don't like that because he's better.

He deserves more than that. And those players have let him down. I know that part of this is coaching and tactics. I get it. But those players, remember when, you know, Kachuk and Juru and everybody came out in the fucking coach? Yeah, early this year. Three of 11 games since then.

Like, if you love the guy, then play for him. But don't, like, this is, this is on DJ, but it's on the players too. like it's on everybody. Like, like, anyway, that's my right.

It came out of the gates hot here. Yeah, I was about to say, like you, you've had that one on your, on your chest for a while. So if you're, so if you're Ottawa Senator's management,

do something about it. If you think DJ Smith is the guy and you're able to recognize that the players are not playing for DJ, do something with that core of players that you are capable of doing. You know, if you feel that strongly about it, make that change.

The easy thing to do in any of those situations is to let go of the head coach. You could be different and make a shake up with your roster. But it also, I don't know. I still would be very surprised considering what management has projected out there with DJ Smith and their confidence in him. And just with this team as a whole, if they did anything, at least now, especially around Christmas. Like, I'd be very surprised. And by the way, we're streaming this live here. And Steve says DJ's not going to be let go before a general manager has landed.

And that could absolutely be the case. But I guess my point is we've reached a pressure point here. And at various times in the year, Julian, different teams are the one where things are boiling over. It was San Jose at one point. It was Edmonton at one point. This field, and we're going to talk to Jay Caulfield about this in a few minutes, but it's been Pittsburgh a couple times. It's Ottawa again.

Like this isn't the first time it's boiled over. And, you know, and you know, it's interesting because I said, can you, can you terminate someone at Christmas in the Christmas window or does that give off like Ebenezer Scrooge vibes? And Jeff Domet, our producer says, don't forget Lou LaMerello did it. And he says it was the day after Christmas with Pete DeBore. I think he did it two times, Julian. did he not fire John and maybe we can get Jeff, our producer, or Danielle, just to double check this because I guess I could have Google this while

you were speaking, but I wanted to listen to what you were saying. But I think he fired John McLean like two days before Christmas because I remember thinking, oh my God, if you Google search John McLean in Christmas, diehard is not going to be the first thing that comes up. I think he fired John McLean like December 22nd. December 23rd,

2010, the Devils, this is off of Wikipedia, the Devils had a 922 and 2 record. They were last place in the Eastern Conference. John McLean was fired. John McClain at Christmas time. The all-time guy. Wow. And then he also

and then he did, he did DeBoer on Boxing Day. That's insane. Dang. Well, at least he had after Christmas. But like, I didn't, I, I, either forgot or just never realize that Lou Lamarillo just does not care

for Yule Tide pastimes and Christmas times. Really? It's just dawning on you now that he might be a little bit calculated in cold, eh? That's not what I said. There are other things that have already

revealed that. I just didn't know there was a Christmas tinge to it. Let's go to the opposite end of the spectrum, shall we? We go from Ottawa And again, we're going to talk about Pittsburgh here in a few minutes with Jake Cofield, who does a terrific job as kind of the pre-imposed game host on Penguins TV in Pittsburgh. We got a lot to get to with them. But let's go to the opposite end of the spectrum, talk about some teams that are playing well.

And boy, Nate McKinnon is going off right now. What's it, 15 games, right? 15 game points week for Nate. If I gave Julian McKenzie his heart trophy ballot today, middle of December, who's the first name? Who's going on the top of your list? Right, like today. I don't care about what you think might happen in three months.

I want to know today. Who's getting your vote? Today? Today. Right now this minute. I wrote a whole column on how Nikita Kutrov's overlooked. I would have probably put him number one, but it's really difficult to go against Nathan McKinnon.

And the fact that he's just this unstoppable force of nature. Here's something that I don't know if it's a controversial thing to say. Yeah. As much as I love watching. Connor McDavid play and the speed and the scoring ability, just he could do so many great things. There are times where I enjoy watching Nathan McKinnon just as much because it feels as if every time he has the puck and he has a full head of steam,

I just feel like he's going to run somebody over. And we've seen it time and time again, whether it's a regular season game or in the playoffs, Nathan McKinnon's motor is unlike anyone else in the league. And he's proven he's a winner. And he has done everything he can to establish himself as a top three player in this league. We rave and rant so much about Carter McDavid and everything he's done. And all the accolades, he's won now.

And all the accolates, he's sure to win in the future. And one day he may get that Stanley Cup. But we have a guy Nathan McKinnon who's done the hard work already, and he wants more. He craves more. And that's what makes him so interesting and so fascinating. and of course he'll end up on heart trophy ballots and he may very well end up with a heart trophy and when it's all said and done,

especially since Colorado is a cup contending team and even though they might not necessarily be the best team in the NHL right now, at least there are odds to be a Stanley Cup champion. I mean, depending on where you look at, they are, they're looking like the favorites right now. Yeah, Nathan McKinnon is very much at the forefront of that. So, I mean, I'll say this to officially answer your question.

maybe it's a bit of a cop-out for me to say that like I really need to think about this a little bit more but like Nathan McKinnon's on the ballot for sure we're all kind of expecting that Connor McDavid will put his team firmly in a playoff position by season's end so it's possible that if he finishes the job he might get that one up

but McKinnon Kutrov McDavid for sure there Quinn Hughes is probably there Kail McCarr there's talk about Kail McCar for the Hart Trophy too right I think it's, I think it's those five players. It's probably McCar, Hughes, Kutrov, McKinnon, and McDavid. I think we have the five.

Oh, man. Yeah, and you're right. You know, the Kucherov stuff that you bring up is, like, it's so on point. How is a guy who's a two-time Stanley Cup winner who, you know, he's going to the Hall of Fame. He's got a hundred and twenty-eight point season on his resume. Like, he's won all these things before. How is he just off the radar?

But he is off the radar. He is. Like, I'm still thinking about it over the weekend who's in Calgary in the locker room. And like, I'm walking in and I see Stephen Stamcoast. Samco's. Yeah, you got the left in another corner. And, and, and, oh God, Victor Heddon's in another corner. You're like, wow, you have all these great players.

And Nikita Kutrov just there at his stall. He just sneaks in. I had a funny moment where with Greg Millen, who is an analyst for hockey night in Canada. And he was trying to go over to talk to Kutrov. And I was trying to go over too. He's like, oh, I'm trying to talk to him, one on. one. And we kind of laughed at each other, just be like, oh, you know, we're obviously trying to talk to him and whatever. And I'd let him get his moment. And I turn around and Kutrov's just gone.

He vanishes. Like, he's this quiet superstar. And there are guys in that locker room who recognize him as such. But like, when you look in that locker room that day ahead of that Flames's lightning game, everyone wanted to talk to Stephen Stamco's. There were so many other players in that room that got those scrubs. But Kutrov, for whatever reason, was just, he wasn't feeling it and he didn't get that attention and he should be getting that attention he's he's he's projected to have numbers better than that 128 point MVP season he's unreal right now and john cooper himself saying that uh he's he feels he's having a better year than his MVP year like that like i don't know john cooper i get it he's biased and he admitted as such but for him to say that i don't i don't think

that's something you just sneeze at that's just that's really really really remarkable. That's why I had to write that column. Yeah. No, no. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's absolutely, uh, bang on, a bang on. Real quick, Shana Goldman has a column up today that you, you know, you talk about, uh, Nikita Kuturov, Julian being on pace for a better season than he had when, when, when he won the Art Ross and the heart trophy and all that stuff with, with, uh, with the lightning a couple years ago. It's the exact opposite for Alex Ovechkin. Shana Goldman with the piece looking at Alex Ovechkin,

this is, it feels like what I'm about to say is a mistake, a typo, whatever, 15 goals, 1-5 this season. Does this start to really make you feel like that the Gretzky record is now, it's in jeopardy? Like it was a foregone conclusion six months ago that he was going to chase it down as early as next season. now do we start to wonder that it even happens. Is it fair to wonder if it even happens?

I think so. I mean, I don't know exactly what pace he'd need to be on for the rest of the year and next year to get to that point. But we kind of assume that the Washington capitals would just be this vessel for Ovechkin to chase history. And we're seeing a player who has slowed. I think I think you had made a mistake would say 15, 5 goals. Like, or sorry, he's 15 goals he's on base for like that. Yeah, exactly.

He's on piece. I misunderstood that. Yeah, yeah. I misunderstood that. But that's, that's insane. Like, the idea of him scoring 15 goals in a season. What's the, can you guess off the top of your head?

What's the lowest amount of goals he scored? She kind of, he kind of dipped in that, like, does this include that lockout 2012, 2013 season? Like, because we, that was. I'm debating, I'm debating, not including those. Because that doesn't really count, right? If you don't include, boy. If you don't,

2013. So let's let's exclude that year. He was in the low 30s a couple of times. Was he not like 30? I'm going to say 35. 34. So let's exclude 2012, 2012, 2013 where that was a half year. We can exclude 2020, 2021 because that was 56 games. Yeah. And is it like 34, 35 goals? Like it's somewhere in that neighborhood, right? So 2010, 2011, he scored 32 goals and 85 points in 79 games. I'm missing another. I think that's right because that was right in the window where we were like, oh my gosh,

he's falling off a cliff, he'll never get it back. And then he, whatever, he had, how many more, my goodness, he probably had five more rocket Richard Chauvies after that or whatever

he had. Oh my God. But like, yeah, like Alexander Ovechkin just, I kind of assumed that he would just be, it would just be all about him getting the record. And to see him be on pace for 15 goals is,

yeah, like that's, that's really the beginning of the end. all the while, all the while, as we're talking about Alexander Ovechkin, not playing up to the standard we know him, the Washington Capitals are in a playoff spot as we speak. So two weird things are going on where the capitals are relevant to the point where they're fighting for a wildcard spot. And Alexander Ovechkin's goals going prowess is, does not play a crucial role in that. Let's connect with somebody who knows all about Alex Ovechkin.

think about that great rivalry here between the Pittsburgh Penguins and the Washington capitals. Let's bring him in. He does a terrific job as a pre and post game analyst, Penns TV. In Pittsburgh, we say hello to Jay Coughfield on this Monday. Jay, how are you? Good guys. Good to talk to you. Yeah, listen, thanks.

Thanks for doing this. The reason why we wanted to get you on is that, you know, the penguins, you know, when you think about a team in Pittsburgh losing by a touchdown on a weekend, your mind automatically goes to the Steelers. It's the penguin. So 7-0-0-0-Torna, J. Rock bottom? Yeah, that was a bad guy. Again, in Toronto, Kyle Dubes's first time back into Toronto.

Not a good night. And it was a mix of everything from, you know, they had the father's trip and a good little run to get it all going. And then they go into Toronto. And from the very get-go, they just didn't have, they just didn't have their game. And Toronto was minus Matthews and a number of defensemen were just a much better team.

And they made it just so many odd man breaks. It's a theme that's gone throughout the year. And when they're playing good hockey, then that doesn't happen. When they're a little off their game, it just turns on them quickly. That's what it was like the other night. Obviously, the Pittsburgh Penguin's not playing up to standard.

They're at a 500 record. But one big thing we thought would work out would be their power play. You acquire Eric Carlson from San Jose, and you already have the big three you have. this team should be dynamite when it comes to their power play. They're in the bottom third of the league of that regard. Why is that? Their power play has been, we know they went on a streak to see it.

When they got there, first of all, they weren't getting a lot of looks on the power play to start off with. Then with Carlson and Latang, they were trying to figure that right mix. I think they just couldn't find it. They just couldn't find with the Latang be with it or not. They started with Carlson as the number one guy and men in the point, which is why they brought him in. but they just weren't getting pucks to the net. They don't have traffic in front. And then it became, that was a snowball effect.

They just didn't never found this way. Then they came back with Latang and Carlson on the same unit. They gave up opportunities off of that to the opposition. Not anything was, there was nothing wrong good until a couple games ago. They just kind of seemed to simplify it. And we know, we always talk about, they're the guys out there. The players to a man are all outstanding, some of the greatest players to play the game. and they just weren't getting pucks to the net.

And they said, no traffic. They seemed to be easy when they were aggressive on them. They just didn't find the place. They had bad zone entries, no shots through retrieval. It's just not there. So finally they got out of it, though, a little bit. And I think hopefully they can write the ship. But the Toronto night was something that was a, they rolled back a little bit.

I mean, we're talking about the power play here. And I'm also just wondering, at even strength, what's the fit been like with Carlson? Jay. Like, I mean, you're bringing in somebody with 100 points, the Norse trophy. Like Julian said, we figured this thing was going to be off and running. So even if we remove the power play and maybe the awkward fit there, how do we see 65 fitting in at even strength? You know, they're 5-on-5 play. Before even Carlson, to talk about Carlson, Crosby line has been outstanding five-on-five.

And the team as a whole, a lot of plus players. You don't see the minus players in their lineup. So 5-on-5, they've been outstanding. And I think Carlson, with, he's been with Pedersen. That's a perfect, perfect balance. Now, you might see a switch tonight, right? Because Graves and LaTang, that hasn't been worked. They just haven't found, maybe Graves has not found his try with Chris LaTang.

So you might see a shakeup in the deep pairings. But Pedersen with Carlson has been very good because Pedersen has been one of their best, if not their best blue liner so far this year. And I think as go back on the PowerPlay guys, I think if we talked about Carlson's numbers, his point total, even though he's over 100 points in what, which is amazing. He didn't have a lot of those points on the power play. It was a lot of even strength numbers. So, hey, listen, he's up in the play.

He's dynamic. Pedersen's been the perfect partner with them. Five on five, they've been doing their thing. But when it comes back, as we go back to the power play, where everybody thought it was going to take off, it just hasn't happened. So the Penguins, five on five, their game has been very good. But power play has brought them down. And you don't want to think, like, one phase of the game can do it.

But they have had the power play opportunities to tie a game or to take a game. or to take the lead or extend their lead, they're the ones that have been killers, man, because they just haven't been able to do it. They allow a team to catch up or they don't get the tying goal and they're losing points because of it. So let's hope they're kind of finding that little mix of getting pucks to the net and traffic to change that.

Big picture question for you, Jay. If this team continues to play at the rate that they're at, again, I mentioned they're out of a 500 record, but they're well out of a playoff spot. Yeah. What do you think Kyle Dupus does with this roster? What do you think he does with this coaching staff? What is the big picture view for the Penguins if this season just doesn't work out?

Yeah, this is a tough. This is a real good question because I would think even Mike Sullivan interviewed after the game. I don't think anything's off the table as far as what they may need or what they can do. First of all, they're kind of handcuffed. The cap situation when it's done to GMs in the game today, so different, right? You don't have the freedom just to do anything. The cap is a big part of it. But Kyle, I don't believe, again, if they didn't come away if there's two wins and then you lost 7-0-0 to Toronto the other night, it would be a real tough thing here over the weekend and then the night.

But still being that, I think Mike Sullivan's not going anywhere. He's re-upped and I, but I do think something across the board, something's got to happen because the fan base, number one, can't stand for it. And number two, I don't believe Kyle Doops is a guy that's going to stand pat. also you can't continue to fall down. I think this team with the talent that they have in the years that are remaining on their superstar talent, they've got to find some mix. And the shakeup is always,

in the game of hockey more than any other sport I've seen, doesn't happen in football, but in hockey, for example, in hockey. Steelers can't do anything here in Pittsburgh, but in hockey, when there's a shakeup, that usually jumpstart something. And again, I don't know what it's going to be. I think you can't.

The players themselves are the ones that aren't really performing to what I think is expected from their coaching staff. Young guys get opportunities. They can't sustain their play. And it's been a problem. So they're looking at their depth. And I'm not sure what Kyle Dubas can do,

but I do believe something's got to happen. If they don't have a good night tonight and turn it around a little bit, there's going to be more of that talk, guys. Right to your point. It's interesting, Jay, because you mentioned that in your estimation, even we heard Kyle Dubas say this a few days ago. Yep.

Mike Sullivan's safe, that this isn't a Mike Sullivan problem. But, I mean, what are you seeing out of the coaching? Like I guess maybe the question is like, why do you think the coaching staff is safe, so to speak here? Yeah, I mean,

look, we all know from as long as we've been around the game, you go on a run of not making a playoffs or you get into playoffs and you don't win series and then you don't make the playoffs. And you're going a number of years, you're usually looking at a different staff. You're usually looking at a different staff.

That's just the way it's always going to seem and be. This has been Mike Sullivan, they, you know, the players, you know, to a man, everybody, you know, what they've done. together has been outstanding. At some point always the voice is a voice falling, you know, on deaf ears. Is it they're not listening to message anymore? That's, I think when Kyle Dupes came out and wanted to shut that talk down, probably the right thing to do. Does that

mean everybody on staff is safe? I would say not, guys. I just, I just, something has to change. And as I said, when you go four or five years without success in the playoffs, especially here in Pittsburgh with what you have here, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, something that everybody is expecting something to happen. And it's, and I'm not, I don't, again, I think it falls on the players of what they're doing, but we all know after a while, there's a timeline, right? And the voice with, if it goes flat, it goes flat. And the players, they need to respond to night. If we see a flat game the night, then I think the conversation is going to really ramp up in some form. But something's going to have to change. I believe it

won't be Mike Sullivan, but something internally could change or as some move, because I said, I don't think anything is not on the table to make a move to change what's going on here in Pittsburgh. Fascinating that you say that. But also, I'm thinking with Mike as well. I mean, his first two years as head coach wins Stanley Cups with Pittsburgh. And it's not as if he hasn't brought his team to the playoffs or hasn't seen some kind of success in the regular season anyway.

What do you think that says that in a world where coaches feel so disposable, so especially in the NHL, that Mike's been able to still hold on to his position as head coach with his team. Yeah, I just think that's, again, another great point. Look at even Craig Barubi, you know, with St. Louis. I mean, you look at your roster. Is it Craig Barubi's fault that the team, you know, does, there's nobody with more heart and plays, had to play with more fire. And I believe he coached the same way.

Coaches, you're all, they're vulnerable. They all understand it when they get into that, into that profession. I think, though, as we've all, as we know, we've seen over the years, you can tell when players aren't responding. If that's what they see, then they've changed. But I think Mike Sullivan has to fire what Pittsburgh people love that about them. And the players respond to that. Now it's been flat for a little bit here. And it's not Cindy Crosby.

And that kind of like it's when you go down the ladder, they're not getting what they need. I do think, though, that it's, you have to do something. Something has to change. You can't stand pat. And for me to say, it's not going to be Mike Sullivan because I don't, the ownership group loves them, GM loves them. And the players, they all have the same belief and faith in them. They have to turn it around. They believe they feel they need to turn around themselves.

But I will say in any other situation, if I looked across the league, when you see it going flat, something's going to change. and it's not, and that's why coaches are so vulnerable. They're probably sending a message, but they're just not getting the results. And is that on your team, is that on which you're able to put on the products? You can put on the ice. Right now, Kyle Dupes' hands are tied.

He brought in players to be difference makers. And when it started to change and be on the positive, they get, there's injuries. So they need the guys who have been brought in, need to pick it up. That goes from everybody, as we talked about Carlson, the fit, Graves, all that. Graves hasn't found his stride.

Carlson as a whole, we know, not power play. They haven't found their stride. So they haven't stepped up for what Kyle Dubus is expecting, what the penguins expect, and let's hope they turn around. They need a good outing here tonight. Or you guys will probably be hearing a lot more going on in Pittsburgh if they don't have that good outing. You know what's remarkable, Jay? We've spent, you know, 10, 12 minutes where we've talked about the penguins.

Yep. We haven't mentioned the goaltending. And this is what's remarkable. It's actually been good. And I think if you think about Pittsburgh, the last four or five years, you think about the instability, right? Inconsistency from Matt Murray, inconsistency from Jari.

But it's been good, hasn't it, this year? Yeah, it really has been, guys. The other night, Toronto was just, that's the way it went. But for the most part, I believe the tandem together, Najalcovic and Jari together are top, in the top five, maybe top four, if you will, as far as state percentage and goals against the average.

They have given the penguins the opportunity to win games each and every night. Now, there's been a little hiccup early in the year. But together combined, they've been very good. Helberg stepped in for a couple of games and was very good as well. So, you know, Pal Dubus wrote Tristan Jari. He went with them, signed him to a contract. And that's looking like a good move right now because across the board,

I believe the numbers are just down across the board with goaltenders. Their goals against, their save percentage, whatever it might be. But the penguins have been solid in that area. And again, they have two goaltenders that are very similar in a way that they handle the puck men because it's from one goal tender to another one, the Penguins D don't have to feel that difference. They handled the puck extremely well. They're like a third D back there.

They move it. They set it up for them perfectly. So they're very good. But they've been outstanding enough. And that's really, you have the Penguins around that 500 number. The goaltending is very good to do that. And as I said, they've given away, there's been a lot of games that got away from them as we talked about the power play.

Special teams hasn't been able to keep up with what they need to do. that's why it's been such a big topic. The penalty killers have been very good. A little slide to last little bit, but we know your goaltender has to be the key part to it, and they have been that. Jay, before we let you go real quick, you talked about a game on Monday night.

It's possibly Mark Andre Fleury's last visit to Pittsburgh. I'm wondering if it is, and I know Mark is, you know, Mark Andre has kind of talked about this. This might be it for him. What's going to be the feeling inside that arena if they show him on the Jumbotron, if they kind of have a moment with him in Pittsburgh tonight.

Yeah, he's a beloved athlete here, guys. He's, and it seems everywhere he goes. He has that personality. The fans, I'm sure, will be, you know, so, I think they're going to feel lucky they're in the building and get a chance to watch and play. That's how much they love and cared about the athlete. And there's so many, there's so many in Pittsburgh.

Again, we're a city that's sports-oriented. And they love their Steelers. They love the pirates and they love the penguins. And the success with the great players that have been here, the fans let them know it. Mark Andre Fleury will always be considered one of the best they ever come through here. And I'm sure they're going to let them know that tonight. And I think as an athlete, I don't think there's anything much better than that. Whether your admiration from your peers, the fan base, the respect that you would have from that,

I think everybody has that for him. I think he's one of the better, best personalities to come. come through the game. And the Penguins fans and all, everybody here have been lucky enough to see him be a part of it. So when he comes back, I expect it to be a really great, great evening for himself. And besides the game, what we talked about, then they're going to hope the Penguins get to him. But I think it's going to show a lot of respect and love for Mark Andre Fleury there tonight. Should be a special night in Pittsburgh. And boy, never a dull moment around the Penguins. Jay, thanks so much for dropping by the pod because the Penguins are absolutely one of the most fascinating

teams in the league. We certainly appreciate your, your analysis on them. Hey, guys, great to talk to you too. All right. There he goes. Jake. Jake Cawfield, Stanley Cup champion with the Pittsburgh Penguins. That was a great job. Awesome. It was really great. He was really great. He was a pro-team analyst. Yeah, that was a ton of fun. And it's an easy segue too, because we're talking about Mark Andre Fleury. We're talking about goal pending. Why don't we bring him in?

Netstra damas. Let's go. Jesse Granger. It's our guy. Good morning, guys. Good morning. Well, it's a good morning for you because the two teams that we cover played each other Sunday night. And I actually legit straight up thought, oh my God, Jesse Granger is going to play in that game. Yeah, it was getting close. It was getting, hey? Seriously. It was, it was not looking good. Logan Thompson, obviously Aiden Hill goes out in the very beginning. He hadn't played in a long time. He comes in and it only took a couple saves and he wasn't looking right and he leaves the game very early.

Logan Thompson comes in. And then in the third period with about 13 minutes left, he went down awkwardly. And it was pretty clear watching it that he was injured or at least hurt. I guess we shouldn't say injured. There's a difference. But he was hurt. He went over to the bench and was shaking his leg, his right leg, and kind of testing it out in front of the trainer. He ended up toughing it out and finishing the game.

They didn't need the ebug. But he was definitely dressed. And I can imagine nervous in the back when he saw Logan Thomas. Thompson down on the ice injured. But yeah, we talked to Bruce Cassidy after the game, and he said he doesn't think Logan Thompson's injury is serious. So it does sound like Vegas is going to at least have him going forward. But, yeah, Aidan Hill, who knows how long he's going to be out now that he re-injured that after missing a bunch of time.

So some question marks in net for the Golden Knights moving forward. Free story idea for you, Jesse. Right. You should find some like semi pro team or whatever level team you could find and join them as an ebug. Yeah. And just like first person experience when I get lit up. Yeah. I mean, if any semi pro general managers listening to this right now, I'm open to this.

So far, nobody's knocking down my door for me to play goalie for them. But if there's anyone out there that would like me to write about a story about me, give it up a bunch of goals. I'm in for it. Just in all seriousness, I think it would be a great idea. But to focus on the Vegas Golden Knights, what have you made of Jack Eichols play 10-game point streak for him? Yeah, broke the franchise record,

the long and storied history of the Golden Knights. But yeah, he's been amazing. He's been so good all over the ice. He's probably been their best defensive forward, which is crazy to say because Mark Stone is amazing. But Eichol's speed and his and more so, more so than speed, it's just his acceleration. His first couple steps are unbelievable.

And it allows him to close on guys when on the back check or on the penalty kill. He's been one of their best penalty killers. And he's just using like this guy's been so physically talented his whole career. He's finally using all of those attributes to be good everywhere. And he's dominating in the defensive zone. He's dominating in the neutral zone where if the puck's on his stick, he's so good at transporting it. Like it's, there is no failed exit once you get the puck to Jack Eichel. The puck's the other way.

It's a scoring chance the other way. And immediately after, he's just been really, really good for this team. He's the best player on the ice most nights. And he's starting to show a little bit of leadership too. Bruce Cassidy after the game last night was talking about Eichl. And he said, you know what I really liked about him tonight was he was vocal early in the game. And Vegas started that game flat. They did score early, but early on they weren't playing all that well.

they had some turnovers to Ottawa, which looked a lot like the game against Buffalo that they lost a couple nights before. And Ikel was dragging them along. I mean, he was driving the bus and on the bench. He was he was encouraging guys. He was basically saying this is an acceptable. This is not our style of play. Let's get it going, guys. So we're starting to see more and more out of Jack Eichel as he gets comfortable here in Vegas.

I think to me right now, he should be up there. His points aren't quite up there with McKinnon and Kutrov, but I think when you factor in how good he's been defensively. and how the team's winning. I think Ikel should be at least in the conversation for heart, not one of the favorites, but he should at least be in the conversation right now. Yeah, it's great. You know, Julian and I were talking about that.

Look, you make a compelling case for Ikel to be on there. And I'll tell you, I watched that whole game yesterday, the Ottawa Vegas game. Ikel reminded me of the way he used to play at his peak in Buffalo, just super confident, super aggressive,

like just a ton of, the guy oozes, I love this guy. Like, I love him on the ice. I think he oozes confidence. And when he's going, he's going. And right now he is.

So that was, yeah, that was great to see on Sunday night with Ikel kind of being back to 100%. So we love having you on to chat all things, goaltending, Jesse. And let's start in Carolina where there's kind of, I guess, multiple goaling angles going on here with the hurricanes. Good news is Freddie Anderson. Looks like there's a path to him to coming back from that blood clot. But he's still probably a few weeks away. But they put anti-Ranta on waivers. Claire's Aaron Dell is now apparently getting the PTO.

Like that's the one thing, Jesse, that I think is holding back Carolina from really maybe getting the Stanley Cup final. How do you view the Hurricanes goaltending situation right now? Yeah, I view all the movement, the waving and the claiming and all that is just, this is seems, it seems like a desperation last ditch effort. We have to do something. The goaltending has been, to call it horrific, it's not even, that doesn't even go far enough. This goaltending on this team is so bad. Carolina's, to me, their goaltending has held them back

for years. I think that in other years, it wasn't terrible, but it wasn't as good as it needed to be. And I think that the team in front of them makes their stats look better than they maybe should be for the goalies. I think it's easy to play goalie for Carolina. The way they possess the puck, the way they control it, the way they defend, a lot of shots from the outside. I don't think their goalies have been good enough in past years when they put up okay numbers and then you get to the playoffs and that's when it really matters and then the goaltending lets them down. Now it's gone even more extreme. I mean, Carolina is still playing. If you look at their defensive numbers, they're still playing well. And yet they've got one of the worst safe percentages in the entire league. I think Freddie

Anderson coming back, that's, that gives you some hope because he's gotten it done in the past. I think he can be good enough to to at least get them to the playoffs. We'll see what happens once they're there. But right now it's like this team's just in question of can they hang on and make the playoffs? They've got to get at least league average goaltending. I think if they do, they're a playoff team. But right now, all three of those goalies have not played well at all.

And the fact that Freddie Anderson, there's some light at the end of that tunnel, I think, gives them some hope. But man, do they need that some of the contenders in the east, it is crazy how, like New Jersey is kind of in the same situation where that team looks like it's built to win. championship, but the goalies have just been so bad that you wonder if they can overcome it. That's a good question. Aaron Dell, do you think he does enough to at least just plug things in Carolina? It seems like he's going in on a PTO with that organization. Yeah, I mean, who knows? Like I said, I do think that it's pretty easy to play goalie for Carolina, like relative terms.

Like it's not easy, but compared to playing for the sharks, it's easy. Um, and I think that like, you see like you see Aiden Hill for Vegas. Vegas. Aiden Hill was not a highly touted goalie. I mean, he was at one point, but it didn't work out for the coyotes traded him. The sharks had given up a second round pick for him. It didn't work out in San Jose. They were going to wave, uh, Aden Hill. Like the sharks, he was their third best goalie. And then he goes to Vegas in a good goalie friendly system that gives you predictable shots that makes things easy on you. And some guys just fit into that and are brilliant. I don't know if Arundel is going to be brilliant for Carolina, but I do, I wouldn't say there's no chance he's good enough

for them. I think he could go in there and be good enough. If he fits their system, like I said, I think they can block some shots, make the teams, take some shots from the outside. Don't give up the grade A high dangers on the doorstep. And maybe he's good enough, but it's, it's dire straits for in the crease for Carolina right now. Hey, let's talk, let's stick with a former Sharks goalie here back in the, you're talking about Aaron Dell, Martin Jones. All of a sudden, Jesse, is in the goal-thending picture of the Leafs. Two starts, and granted, he's only played three games, two starts, rocking a 9-50 or not, sorry, 9-49, same percentage.

Here's a question for you. Right now, if the playoffs started today, game one, Maple Leafs have a game one tonight. Are you rolling out, uh, and again, health is an issue, but Joseph Wall, Ilya Samsonoff, or Martin Jones for your game one? Well, if you're telling me Joseph Wall is healthy, then it's an easy choice. Joseph Wall, I think he's the best goalie in Toronto by a mile. I think Wall's the best goalie there.

But with him hurt right now, that's where to me it becomes interesting. Would you go Martin Jones or Ilya Samsonov? I would go with Martin Jones. I just did a story on Samsonoff where I watched a bunch of film. His structure is kind of a mess right now. He's not always the most technical goalie. He relies a lot on athleticism and his hand eye is fantastic. And he makes some great saves.

He's a gamer. He never gives up on a shot. But right now, his structure is giving him problems. It has him chasing the play. It has him making saves more difficult on himself than they need to be. And I think Martin Jones, for all of his faults,

I think his personality is perfect for playing goalie for the Toronto Maple Leafs because he's just such a calm presence. Like he is, the highs aren't too high. The lows aren't too low. Is he going to go out there and stand on his head and win you a game? Absolutely not. But he's also not going to single-handedly lose you the game.

That's just kind of how he is. And on some bad sharks teams, he did lose games and his stats were awful. But when he's behind a decent team, Martin Jones is very safe to me. That's just, I see him as a very safe option. He's going to be calm back there. And I think that he just is a little bit more what the Toronto Maple Leafs need in terms of style of goalie than Samsonov is right now. Um, so if wall is not an option, I, I, crazy enough, I think I'd lean Martin Jones, but to me, if wall's healthy, he's the guy.

Thoughts on Dallas and Jake Ottinger. We know a couple of nights ago, he, uh, leaves a game against Ottawa with a lower body injury. Any thoughts on his situation? They need him bad. Um, I, like there, there are a lot of tandums in the league. That's how we're going. Dallas, Ottinger is one of the few workhorses left that like, if, if he's healthy,

Pete DeBore gives him all the games. Wedgwood isn't the strongest backup. He's a good, reliable guy that you can count on. But I think that they're one of the few teams that really leans on their starting goalie. And Ottinger, if he's out for long term, Dallas could be in trouble because he's obviously a big piece of that team. And they play him a lot. So hopefully he's not out too long or that could be bad for Dallas. Let's wrap up, Jesse.

And we always have you on the athletic hockey show, courtesy of our friends at BetMGM, the exclusive betting party. I'm the exclusive betting partner with the athletic. And we're kind of at that point. Julian talked about it. He was like, here, here's our my four or five heart trophy nominees. You said that we should put Eichel in the mix. I'm wondering if we look at the Vezna Trophy, Jeremy Swainman of Boston, who, you know,

kind of came out of nowhere here last year. If you're looking at the Vezna Trophy right now, where's Jeremy Swayman for you? Yeah, I think. I wouldn't put him as the favorite, but I'd put him as the best value. Right now, he has the sixth best odds at 10 to 1. So you're getting very good odds, 10 to 1 on a guy that right now has been one of the best goalies in the league, maybe the best.

And it's interesting because last year, both Boston goalies were so good. And I think the majority of people said, well, how good are they actually? Because we haven't seen either of these guys be dominant like this. And the team was obviously historically good. So we were wondering like, okay, how much of this is just they play. behind the Bruins defense and Bergeron and all that. Well, they're proving this year that they are the reason that the Boston Bruins are good. I mean, you look at Boston this season and they, they're, they're five on five numbers in

terms of expected goals allowed. They're right league average. I think they're 15th in the league. They're 16th in high danger chances allowed. They're 15th in scoring chances. They are a league average defense by just about every metric you can put up there. And yet they have, they're tied for the best record in the NHL. And Olmark has proven that he was not a one-year wonder.

He's been awesome. And he hasn't even been the best goalie on his own team. Jeremy Swamen has been phenomenal. I was watching a Bruins game a couple weeks ago. And I thought, like, wow, I think Jeremy Swamen might be the best goalie in the NHL right now, just watching him play. And his stats back it up. He's third in goal saved above expected.

I think he's top with Aden Hill tied for a save percentage amongst qualified goalies. So to me, and I also think that you look at some of the guys above him, like a Cam Talbot. I love that Cam Talbot's playing the best hockey of his life right now. It's fun to watch, but he's up there. He's in his late 30s. He doesn't have a reliable backup. So he's going to play a lot of games. How long can he keep this up? Can Cam Talbot really do this as the workhorse for an entire 82 game season? I am skeptical. Whereas you look at Swamen's situation, he's playing behind a good team. He's got a great tandem. You know he's not going to get tired. He's going to play the right the correct amount of games i just i think there's a lot to like about

jeremy swamon the way he has played and the way it sets up for the future if you're looking at someone that's a little bit more of a long shot for for an award i think swayman at 10 to 1 for viz and that's a great value if you were in charge of team usa for a best on best tournament and you have to go play tomorrow is jeremy swam and so good he is part of the top three goalies for team usa we know jay gottinger's there who else is there man that it's it's it The U.S. goalies are so good. The U.S.

goalies and the Russian goalies, it's unbelievable how stacked they are. I mean, we're talking, like, I honestly don't think Swayman is the top three. I mean, because Hellebuck is there,

Thatcher Demko, this U.S. goal, they're stacked. I mean, Swamen, to me, he's right there with those two, but an Ottinger's up there.

Oh, my goodness. It's, it is an embarrassment of riches in the crease for U.S. I think if I, if I had to pick one, if we're playing a game tomorrow, I'm taking Connor Hellebuck, just because his history and his consistency.

but I think Swayman could be the best of the bunch. Ottinger could. It's Demkoe might be, he leads the league in goal saved above expected. Man, are there some good American goalies right now? It's fun to watch. Man, your goaltending is an embarrassment of riches. Ours is an embarrassment. That's the difference.

Damn, I don't you go that far. And the United States. Okay. Jesse, as always, my man, great to have you on the pod. Look, I guess this is it before the holiday. So I hope you and the family and everybody in your life has an amazing holiday season. and yeah, we look forward to connecting with you at some point here in the next couple weeks. Thank you guys.

You as well. Thanks for having me. There he goes. Jesse Granger joining us here. And by the way, boy, what a great debate to have about the team USA goal tenting guy. What a great question because, boy, I don't know, I don't know which direction you would end. Here's another good question. What the hell was Peter Baugh doing?

on Sunday night. I want to share this tweet from Peter Baugh, right? Where basically he's covering the avalanche game, right? So he's in the arena. And for reasons, I guess, unbeknownst to me, and maybe we should have just had this guy on the show, because that would have, that would help. But Peter Baugh tweets out during the game,

I'm at a urinal, but someone just scored per the goal goal. horn three nothing abs. Now, look, I love context. I love adding a little bit of info. Like, again, but there's something called TMI. The hell did he feel the need to tell people I'm out of urinal? Just, just say.

Would you rather he tweeted this from the toilet instead from a stall? No. What's the point? What's the upside? What are you gaining from? And also, it makes you wonder, what do you mean you're at the urinal? Are you at the urinal with your phone out?

Yeah, I tried not to think too deeply about when in the process of being in the bathroom, he tweeted about this. My one thing is just as long as he washes his hands. Like using the phone at the urinal is already kind of not a great thing to do as it. It's not the little sanitary thing to do. I just hope for this man's sake. Before he left the bathroom, he washed his hands with soap.

That's all I want. We should have had him on the, we should have had it on the pod and talk about this. I've seen some grown folk. I've seen some grown folk going to these bathrooms, these public bathrooms,

and not wash their hands, let alone not use soap. So I just hope for the sake of Peter Bob that he did. Was it not you? now I'm blank. Sometimes I mess things up with the various people I've done shows with over the years.

But was it not you that once said you saw an unnamed general manager used the facilities without washing his hands? It was you, right? It was me who said that. Yes, I did say that. I did say that. Yes.

I'm not going to. No, no, no. These are the stories you save for the end of your career when you write a book, a memoir. And you're like, I went in, and this this guy didn't wash his hands. Yeah, man. I saw that man walk out and I was like,

really? Like, ew. Come on. Wash your hands. It's not that hard. We just went through a pandemic. Wash your hands. You soap.

Like, I don't, we, and you're two grown men who don't need to repeat this to you, but clearly we do. And don't tweet from a year and all. Yeah, I'm cool with that.

that. I don't need to do this. Yeah. Um, like, why would you do that? Hey, some, some real positive news. And I'm, I'm really happy to see this on Monday, Detroit Red Waddwings head coach Derek Lelan confirming that Dylan Larkin will return to the lineup this evening on Monday against Anaheim. This is big. I mean, nobody wanted to see like what, what happened to Larkin about 10 days ago, Julian, was one of the most chilling, horrific things you could see at a hockey game. Nobody wants it. nobody, nobody ever in any circumstance wants to see that.

It's upsetting, it's jarring. And when he was down like that, there was, I don't think any of us thought he would be able to come back within 10 days. So I'm super happy that this did not appear to be as serious as first felt. But great news, Detroit's getting their captain back,

Dylanarkin back in the mix on Monday. Yeah. Just you have it right there. I just looking back at that highlight and seeing him on the ice. Very scary moment. We've talked a lot about it. We've talked a lot about the instances that were happening just as he was down on the ground. It was really scary to see him unconscious like that.

So to see that he's healthy and back and available to play, I'm just happy for that. Yeah. We're happy for Detroit fans. We're happy for Dylan Larkin. It's awesome to see. Let's wrap up with an email and a reminder. The Athletic Hockey Show at gmail.com is the way you can hit us up. The Athletic Hockey Show at gmail.com.

Josh writes in, relatively new hockey fan here from the UK, fell in love with the Maple Leafs on a trip to Toronto last year. You mentioned the World Cup of hockey in a podcast recently. Just want to ask you guys a couple questions while I try to wrap my head around international hockey. Mainly, why isn't there more dialogue between the NHL and the WAHF World Championships? Seems crazy to me the WIHF would have their event overlap with the playoffs in the Stanley Cup, meaning we hardly ever get the chance to see the best in the world,

take on each other in national games. I just wonder who is benefiting from this arrangement. I follow soccer where the World Cup is the showpiece event. This all seems a bit crazy for me. Yeah, I understand their point. I mean, we in Canada sort of take it for granted because our country has so many talented players that even in years where you're not going to see the absolute best players in the world in that tournament, they could still put together a roster of players who've missed the playoffs who are pretty good,

and they can go out and win. They've done it a handful of times. They literally did it last year with a roster that had just off the top of my head, Milan Luchich, Tyler To Foley, McKenzie Weeger, and those are just guys who were on the Calgary Flames last year. they won a world championship one year with Troy Stetcher and Andrew Montchipani as the forefront. And I believe Gerard Galant was the head coach of that team. I mean, I wonder if it has to do with certain breaks in the schedule for other European leagues, where it works out for some of the other teams that are able to be built.

but I feel as if this has not become a bigger topic, at least in Canada, because one, where a lot of us are watching the Stanley Cup playoffs anyway, especially if teams in our respective markets are there, but also Canada has not, that has not impeded Canada from putting out a solid roster at the World Championship. I just wonder if we get back to the cycle of best on best every two years, meaning Olympics every two years and World Cup of hockey every two years, will that effectively kill the double IHF the worlds that happened in May?

No. Being a meaningful tournament? No, I don't think so. I mean, I don't necessarily think so. I think any opportunity for guys to play for Team Canada, like that's something you take, right? And that's something,

maybe in terms of interest, it might still be the same. But as long as that avenue is there for, for players to step up and play for Canada at a tournament like this, I don't necessarily see it being killed, at least in terms of the interest of the players. And I don't know. I think it just has everything to do with that opportunity of representing the country,

which again, to my point, like those tournaments in Canada, if you're a guy who is like a good second line player, we would probably never make it on Team Canada at the Olympics or the World Cup, but you're still good enough to play on a world championship team? like that may be your one chance to do at the senior level. I think you'll still see guys take up that chance. Absolutely. Yeah, no, it's a, it's a great point.

But look, all we want is more best on best. Absolutely. And we're not going to complain. Speaking of best on best real quick, Elliot Friedman, we should point out on Saturday night, the headline segment, hockey date in Canada, it said, remember last week, Gary Bettman kind of made a low-key comment of, well, I don't know, that construction in Italy isn't,

isn't happening at the pace we wanted to happen. Well, according to Elliott, the construction is sort of picked up, ramped up in Milan. So maybe just maybe everything will be on track, hopefully for the 2026 games. All right. That does it for the Monday pod. And you're going to get some well-deserved time off here next couple of days, right? So we're swapping you out. We're trading Julian McKenzie for Mark Lazarus.

Oh, you get the loud American in my place. Las. Mark's Lazarus. I believe is the nickname. Mike Russo will pop by as well. So much to talk to you about the Minnesota Wild. We have not spoken to Russo since all of that stuff came out about Bill Garon, investigations, all of that.

Mike Russo will drop by the Tuesday pod. We are being told that the deal is one for one, Julian McKenzie for Mark Lazarus, not even a draft pick. Oh, man. Look, I hope you guys are cool with the value on that trade, man. I mean, one for one is really tough. Yeah, it's a one for one deal. This is like a Gidl for New and Dyke, though,

where you're just, you're trading a promising future prospect in exchange for a grizzled win now veteran. Okay, that's fine. That's all right. It's not bag of pucks, like what producer Jeff is trying to say in the chat. I definitely prefer the I get love for New and Dyke comparison. Yeah. And not Tom Curvers for Scott Niedmarie.

Producer Jeff is talking crazy right now. He's talking like a Rutgers Leafs fan right now. Yeah. My goodness. All right. How'd that trade work out for you, buddy? Curvers for Niedermeier. How'd that work out for you, buddy? Jeez.

That almost cost America Lindross. But again, that's another story for another day. That does it, like I said, for the Monday edition of the pot. If you're looking to give that special someone a gift right now, we're talking about one week away from Christmas. Why not a one-year subscription to the Athletic? You can gift it to them for just 1999 or a two-year subscription for $39. when you visit the athletic.com slash hockey show.