The Athletic Hockey Show - Sergachev's injury likely a season ender, NHL's audit on hits stat and should the Maple Leafs & Penguins stand pat at the trade deadline?

Episode Date: February 8, 2024

Hailey and Sean look back at the ugly injury to Mikhail Sergachev and how it might be a season ending injury for Tampa's top four defender. They discuss the NHL's audit on the hits stat, and Jenna Trubiano, the head coach of the University of Michigan's women's hockey team who dealt with harassment during an adult hockey league game in Michigan on Sunday.Plus, Hailey and Sean discuss CHL players eventually being able to play NCAA hockey, Sebastian Aho's frustration with Nikita Kucherov at the NHL All-Star game and Hailey and Sean wonder if the Maple Leafs should be active for the NHL deadline, and should the Penguins trade Jake Guentzel or sign him long-term? Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is The Athletic Hockey Show. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of The Athletic Hockey Show. It's Haley Salvian, Sean Gentilly here with you on this beautiful Thursday. No Max Bultman. He's on a beach somewhere. He's in Hawaii. Well, I wasn't going to docks him.

I will. He's going to find him on the beach in Hawaii. Do you guys want his address in Detroit? I can give you that, too. It's two, four, five, six. One, two, three, one, two, two, boogie-wogie Avenue for Pierre LeBron lives. Whatever that dumb joke, me and Constance, you said. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, Max is on a beach. He's on his honeymoon. He's living it up. So Sean and I are stuck here bringing you this week's news and notes from around the NHL. Yeah, great sell. News and notes. Everyone's in for news and notes. Stay with us.

What other cell? Would you rather have? Don't use the phrase news and notes. There's something about that that's like, that's very like, yeah, turn off your podcast player right now. Yeah. I feel like when Max isn't here, this show kind of descends into madness a little bit.

And I think that's my fault. But because Max makes me nervous, you know. I don't want him to judge me. You got the first chair. Me, me. How are you? I'll start there first. What's up?

I used to always say like, hello. How's it going? I'm well. Okay. All right, great. Weather's fine here in Pittsburgh, PA. I'm sure it's similarly nice in Honolulu, which is where Max Boltman is right now.

So if you want to go to his house in Detroit, his address is 1-2-2-Bogie Wagg Avenue. Every time I see a post from, Max or his wife, I get a little bit pissed off because it looks really nice. And I'm sitting here with you. But that's okay. We're going to have a good show. There's actually quite a lot of stuff to get into.

There was no athletic hockey show on Wednesday. So we can kind of pick up some of the things that happened over the last few days instead of doing like an evergreen show. But also I kind of like doing those topic shows. So if, you know, people have any topics they want us to dive into, let us know on Twitter, like send me a DM or Sean a bunch of DMs. or just pay the troll toll and join the comment section. So let's get into kind of the big headline from last night. That's Wednesday night games. And the Tampa Bay Lightning's 3-1 lost the New York Rangers.

Mikhail Surgachev was injured. He was taken from the ice on a stretcher in the second period. His left leg bent in a very awkward and kind of gross way after he kind of went into the corner to throw a hit on Lafranier, it looked like Lafranier throws the reverse hit. He stumbles back. Like, I don't think there was anything dirty there. It was just the way that he fell, the way he went down. It was really uncomfortable. I guess he was in audible pain as the stretcher came out. I did not watch a clip with audio. I don't really like when people post those moments, to be honest. Like, I don't need my Twitter feed being filled with, like, clips of Surgachev's

screaming and pain on the ice. It just makes me feel kind of. of uncomfortable. It's weird and gross. Yeah. That's like it's a weird. It's a weird thing that I feel like hockey and like just sport media people do sometimes is like let me just take my phone out and like film this moment. It's cloud chasing. I did this like I learned the hard way and like nobody really yelled at me but I did feel like super gross after. I remember Scott Sabrin got knocked out at a game in Boston. I think it was David Backus. It was like kind of a freak play. Backus was like crying. I believe it was David Backus. It was like one of my first ever road trips. And I was like, okay, I'm here for this. Like, I guess this is why I'm in the press box on the

road. And I had a video of him being like stretched off and I posted it. I was like, why did I do that? Like he has a wife. He's a family. Like this is gross. And I've never, never done it again. It's just not something that I'm interested in doing. So apologies to Scott Sabrin, I guess. that. But the Surgachev hit that play. That was his first game since December 19th due to a different lower body injury. The team was clearly rattled by it. Quote from John Cooper after the game, it was terrible. I feel awful. He clearly affected our team. Steven Stamco said he was sick to his stomach about it as like somebody who's been through something like that. And he was um you know felt really sick um so just like a really awful moment in that game yesterday night

Sean yeah it's it's obviously this is it for surgachev I don't I don't think we're I don't think we're speaking out of turn there his season this season's over and it had already been you alluded to this kind of a lost season for him right he hadn't played since mid-December and when and in the games that he did play from October to mid-December he hadn't been very good. So, like, maybe it was it a, maybe, whether he was dealing with an injury, whether it was, you know,

different usage in Tampa. That was an early narrative around the lightning season. Like, like, what's up, what's up with, with Mikhail Sergachev, right? Like, they need to get him going. And it, because he's a, he's obviously an insanely talented player.

In terms of raw, in terms of raw talent, like there aren't a ton of defensemen that have him beat. He signed to that enormous contract, which I believe it's the first first year of it, you know, after signing the huge long-time extension before this previous season. And now it's a shame

because it's fun to watch players like that develop. And it's fun to watch Tampa Bay too do what they've done over the last few years, which is like segue into this next wave of franchise caliber players. And he was a big part of it. And I think whether he was going to take another leap was a really low-key, very interesting storyline to follow here, not just for Tampa, but for, you know, the Eastern Conference overall.

And now it's, you know, Feb 8, and he's, you know, and he's certainly in a, in a much different state of mind, you know, different, different phase of his life, different phase of his career now, because that's what this stuff is. Like, like it or not, you know, you don't want to, you don't want to project too far out, but this is career-altering stuff. Like, this is, this is, you know, something that's, something that's going to yeah i mean let's wait for the pro this right like we don't know exactly

what happened we're just assuming that he broke his leg yeah but but but but if you but if you break your leg that's that's that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a pivot point you know this is that this is a major point in his in his life and his career and you just hope that you know things things go well for him here on out and he is like i know i've i've talked to i've talked to i've talked to people about about about about about michael surrogate chav in the past he's a he's a he's a a horse. He's a workout dude. Like he works his ass off. And that's a known fact about him.

So we're going to see that, you know, put to the test, I think, over the next little bit. All the all the best to him. And he actually posted on Instagram pretty late last night slash early this morning. He got the pain meds. He did it. I love seeing that. And he did honestly say like pain meds are good though. So pretty emotional post from Surgachev.

You know, he just said, oh, man, why me? Why now? After all the games missed coming back and getting injured again, feels unfair, feels terrible, trying to stay calm and positive, but it's impossible. After doing everything right, I get this. The universe is unpredictable, I guess, and has its own plans. But I don't know if I'm a lot, but fuck the universe, man. I'm sorry, what can put like a, we can bleep that out, right, Jeff?

I don't know. I know I'll come back stronger and I know I'll play better than before, but it's tough right now and it's going to be tough tomorrow. we all fight our own battles and this is mine I'll win I always do pain meds are good though and that's like that's like that's raw that's like raw stuff from a hospital bed and it goes on to talk about like the forest um but like I think it was supposed to be some kind of analogy about his teammates who's like if I was in the forest by myself I'd be dead crazy isn't it that's that's that's that's good it's that's good to see it's it's good to imagine mikh

of like in his in in in his hospital bed sitting up screwing around on on his phone because people were terrified stephen stankgo said like you said sick to his stomach people were it was a disturbing scene on on the ice so to flash word a couple hours at least know that he's you know in a point where he's reflective enough and and with it enough to do that even even even even though it is sad to see like i it's it there's something there's something heartening about that I'm glad he addressed the pain med situation because I think everyone would be like, why is he posting these very stream of consciousness thoughts at 3 in the morning? If you know, you know with the with the broken bone situation. Yeah.

Okay. So we're hoping for the best for Mikhail Surgachev. Glad that he's, you know, feeling kind of open and honestly raw in that moment. Like it's always, you never want people to go through that. but I can always appreciate. I don't want to call it a peek behind the curtain because that feels gross, but when guys are just open about that situation.

It's honesty, it's openness. Yeah, thank you. That's something to be valued. That's what I mean. Thanks, Sean. Okay, so the other thing I wanted to talk about today is this massive hits audit in the NHL. What's going on?

Speaking of the people, behind the curtain. What's going on? Because when I saw this yesterday on Wednesday afternoon, you know, obviously you see the tweet from the NHL. They've done an audit. The hits metrics are going to be updated. It's like, what do you mean? What do you mean? It's that Jennifer Lawrence, what do you mean? Yeah, very, very casual. Hey, we've updated some stats because there was a bunch of them that were wrong.

Sean, what can you tell us about this situation? I think back to something John Tortorella said, and I'm paraphrasing here, because this was earlier in the season, but someone asks about physicality, right? His team's physicality and whatever, and he said, paraphrasing, like,

well, you look at the hit totals, like from around the league, it's not as physical of a, it's not as physical of a, of a sport as it used to be. It's like, it's an inch. It's an interesting thing to say.

And now two months later or three months later, all the hit totals jumped up because the league conducted a pretty comprehensive review of all that stuff that went into effect after the all-star break. And our buddy Mike Russo noticed it. That's probably the best way to put it. Notice it after the all-star break that the totals, that the totals had changed dramatically. Reached out to the league for comment. the league

immediately, like, basically immediately tweeted something out from its, from its PR Twitter account saying, like,

this is what happened. We conducted it on it. blah, blah, blah, blah. And then Rousseau wrote a pretty comprehensive story. It's up on the site now

that I helped out a little bit with. And my role there was to contact the gambling companies and contact the sports books. like underdog and you know whatever that up until yesterday at minimum had offered hit props during NHL games you say like over under Boone Jenner for four and a half hits or whatever they paid out they didn't pay out based on totals that are now completely different now this is not something like hit props are not something you saw in fairness to the league and whoever else they're not something you saw in official gambling partners for like like fanduel

and draft kings and pen gaming and whatever the swath of gambling companies at the leagues in bed with just another issue entirely i suppose they don't offer prop bets for hits because they're aware just like most anybody most people who've been inside press boxes are aware that hits are in the eye of the beholder and it and it changes from crew to crew it changes from city to city some of the guys who track that sort of stuff in arena have different ideas of what constitutes a hit versus some of their peers so there's like buildings where you're like Pittsburgh is this relative to Florida and blah blah blah blah blah blah and it's always been an issue and it's only more of an issue now that again there are there's gambling content whether it's league sanctions or not that's circ that you know kind of revolves around around these stats so it's interesting that's one element then there's the then there's the other element where it's like hits are used in player arbitration and contract negotiations and they're used as you know a stat to differentiate a player within their cluster when you're talking about arbitration hearing is because it's like a proxy for

for physicality right it's a fantasy category on and on and on it's a big deal and it's something that the league tried to get away with and, you know, didn't. I think our league's a shots league, not a hits league, but would have been more outweighed. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think, God, I'm like having a brain fart here. But yeah, like I was in, I was in league for years. It was hits. It was hits and hits and penalty minutes because those are,

those are proxies still for a lot of people, as imperfect as it is for physical play, right? So it's this multi, you know, pronged issue that Russo you know caught wind of and wrote about extensively and it's and it's and it's very interesting

and I think the big takeaway that people again I know I said this at the top of all this but people need people should like kind of underline this is that the league hadn't said anything about it publicly and then Russo went to them on Tuesday correct and then they just made the change and Russo was like hey what's up with this and then magically there's a there's a there's a PR tweet that gets that gets sent out so it's fascinating so I thought his lead of the story if you guys haven't read it you should um because

there's a lot of good stuff in here but like the lead is essentially like garnet hathaway you know in the middle of the night you know Monday night goes to sleep he wakes up on Tuesday and he goes from 15th in the NHL and hits to fourth without having done a thing and it was just the counts change Cal Clutterbuck, one of the big physical guys in the NHL for a long time, right? He suddenly had 32 hits added, 32 hits added to his season total. These aren't minimal. Including a bunch for a game almost two months ago in the total tripled. Like I don't know the exact.

It went from like two to six, you know? Like I know, I'm sure, like, it's stuff. like this from like, I don't know if we're just in the NHL fishbowl and like overreacting to things, but something like this is just wild to me. And like I would need to go and ask a bunch of people in the NFL or MLB. Like, does this happen? Is there ever been like a pitch count changed after the season for everybody in the league? Like that's, that's just wild to me. And I know it's like human error. Like it's just dudes in the press box. Maybe a few women, I don't know. It's just like people in the press box like counting hits but like that's just like that's just wild to me that

that you could have such wild like such big swings of of a stat and I know it's just hits not everyone's going to think that's important but uh I don't know if that's happening in a bunch of other pro leagues I mean that's just that's what the and the NHL doesn't doesn't value transparency when it comes to that stuff like what's it there's and I wrote about they were just going to try to, they were just going to try to update it and hope nobody noticed. Yeah. I mean, I wrote, I wrote about this, you know, in November as it relates, as related to the senators and the whole mess with Shane Pinto and whatever else where the senators got

railroaded, I think, but to some extent there, Michael Lynn Lauer, the owner is extremely pissed about, about the way that suspension was handled. Yeah. Probably not coincidentally also relating to gambling. And it's just something that to remember all the time is it when you try to want, if you're like, why would the NHL, like, why is the league behaving this way? It's because they're not interested in transparency. They don't want you to know this stuff.

They don't want you to know their reasoning for doing this stuff. They just want to do it and let the machinations kind of play out behind the scenes as they will, you know? Because they can get away with it. And they have gotten away with it for many, many years, for a lot of different reasons, which we're not going to get into here, in a way that other major North American sports don't. So this is just another,

and it's just another example of that. Look, teams found out about this on Tuesday. Tuesday, it had been going on for a long time. It certainly started before Tuesday. And you let the principles involved, No, a day before it drops, it's, it's, it's, it's crazy. And it create, like the bigger problem is that it creates the, it, the whole thing has this flavor of like corruption now and shadiness when it doesn't even need to.

That's, that's, that's what's, to me, that's what's so frustrating about this is like, everybody rightfully has questions now about, well, about like, okay, where do they, where does the gambling thing come into play here? like why would they do this? Why weren't they up front about it? It makes it seem shadier than it is. Yeah. And that's a self-inflicted error.

One of many. It happens and it happens time after time after time. And it's going to happen again in another six months because that's the way it goes. That's just the schedule that the NHL runs on. Let's move to one more thing before we take a break very quickly. I wrote the story last night. and haven't really talked about it yet. It's about Jenna Tribiano, who was the coach at University of Michigan, the women's club team.

She played at University of Michigan. So she actually posted about something that happened to her in a rec league hockey game on Sunday. If you haven't seen her tweet, if you haven't seen the story, they're both kind of on the athletic now. The tweets embedded in the article. But essentially, Jenna was playing in this adult league game. It was an open league, co-ed league essentially. Like anyone over 18 can play in this league regardless of gender. And it's a non-checking league.

And there were two moments where she was hit in one of them. There was a penalty called because checking is illegal. And after that first check, she was told, stay on your feet. This is a men's league. And then she played the rest of the game. Then towards the end of the game, you can hear her. I went back and I watched the game. watch this game.

She gets hit again. They get tangled up in the corner. As she's getting up, her teammates come over to kind of be like, what the hell is going on here? And you can just hear the other team screaming at her. This is men's league. This is men's league. Join a women's league.

Like multiple men screaming at her at least three, four times to like get out of this league essentially. Like you don't belong here. And it's just like, I wrote about. Not a men's league. We should reinforce that. This is a, this is a all, you know, I don't know what the exact right term is. Coet is not correct.

It's an open league. It's an open adult hockey league. The only rules in this league's website restrict the number of under 30-year-old players allowed in an over-30 league. So if you're like in the old man's league, you can't have more than two like 25-year-olds. Yeah, you get your, you get your, you get your, you get your allowed, you know, young guy. Yeah, amount of young dude on your old, old person. You can have, you can have your one or two, you know, 23 year old ringers in the group, yeah. Yeah, but like you get two and that's it.

That's the only, that's the only restriction and you have to be over 18. Um, and essentially I, we wrote the story. I spoke with Jenna and she didn't want to like talk about the incident any further. and she didn't want to name the league. She didn't want to name the players. She didn't want to name the team. She was trying to protect their identities, like the identity of her teammates,

but also the team that was like harassing her for just wanting to go and play a hockey game on Sunday night. Like, and she just wanted to raise awareness essentially. She's like, I don't want to talk about the incident, but like I will say like this stuff is still happening at rinks. Like people are still being. harassed just because they're trying to play a hockey game. Like women are still being harassed

and made to feel uncomfortable and unwelcome in hockey. And she was like, I just wanted to speak out because I tried to speak to them. I tried, I asked for an apology. I tried to explain to them why them saying that to me is not okay. And they wouldn't listen. So I post on social media. I didn't think it would blow up the way that it did. And I just think the whole situation, like reading some of the comments that people have directed at me now for doing the story, that people are directing at Jenna, I don't really have like, this was not a men's league. This was not a checking league.

So for all of the comments that I'm getting about being like, oh, hockey's the toughest, like man, sport, like women shouldn't be playing. It's like, if you want to be a tough guy in a beer league, go find a beer league that's men's only that allows hitting men. Like, if you don't want to see a woman on your Sunday night game, join a men's league, not an open league because women belong there. Like, if you don't want a woman on the ice, go find a men's league with a bunch of like-minded weirdos

who aren't okay with women being on a hockey rink. Sorry. That's all I wanted to say. You're here. It's just absurd. It's one of the most absurd stories I think I've done. And people are being like, mine is the stories.

Like, because this is awful. These guys are, these guys are, they're bums. They're bums. Just like go, again, go, go find a league tailored to your needs. Or you can go and, you know, bang around with,

with the boys for, for a little bit. Very weird. Beer League hockey stuff is very strange. Like, some dude tried to fight. my dad a few years ago. And my dad's like, I'm like 50, you know? He's like, I don't know what's going on. My dad does not play beerly gawky anymore. He's like, what the hell? He's like, I like accidentally tripped someone. He's like, because I like fell. No, my dad was like, what the hell, man? Like,

I'm trying to go. I got to work tomorrow. Like, he's like, dude, I think my dad like tripped and then accidentally tripped the scott. He's like, oh, why you want to go? My dad's like, brother, I just fell, you know it's a bunch of especially that i mean that's like it's a bunch of it's a bunch of washouts who were 30 who were who were who were who were 32 and don't you know selling insurance or whatever yeah yeah he's like i got i got to go to work man like why are you why are you yelling at me so dad doesn't play beer league hockey anymore because he's like i can't can't be around jeff remember producer jeff remember there are no scouts of the crowd tonight I just think a lot of people.

We actually have someone from the San Jose Sharks up top watching this game. All right. So, yeah, just remember there's no scouts in the crowd. Your beer league Sunday night league is not a stepping stone to the NHL. And if you don't want to be around women, find a men's league then. If you want to hit people, join a hitting league. Yeah, right. Like, it's that simple.

She didn't do anything wrong. So let's take a break. We'll be back with more. The Athletic Cocky Show. And we're back. Welcome back. It's still the Athletic Cocky Show. It'd be really funny.

I actually almost like ended the first segment with like, we'll be right back with more doughboys. But I felt no comments. But I felt that didn't fit well with the subject matter. Coming up, our review of you. Harvey's or whatever bogus Canadian burger place hasn't been done yet. I really do. I do love those doughboys. Great pod.

Wow. Imagine that. It's crazy. Even though I can't eat any of the food that they talk about. It's like me listening to two dudes talking about. Like, curiously. The like triple decker cheeseburger they ate last night. And I'm like, oh, that sounds really good.

Anyways, Toronto Maple Leafs beat the Dallas Stars 5'4 last night. There were only three games last night. The second one was the Wild over the Chicago Blackhawks. I'm sorry, we're not going to talk about that one. But Leaves beat the Star. I saw Laz was very openly like trying to fall in the sleep during the game last night, which is funny. He was watching what like northeastern hoops last night, Northwestern.

Northwestern. Oopsies. Northeastern's the good hockey. Same thing. Whatever. There's no difference. Everyone. Everyone.

And they're all going to hate me now. It's fine. All the northeastern journalism crowds. Jesus. I think I get it confused because Kendall Coyne did communications at Northeastern. So I'm like, yeah, great. That's awesome. that's awesome.

Anyways, Leaves beat the star. Lots of good media talent comes out of Northeastern. I'm not so sure about Northwestern. I haven't heard. Ooh. So the Leafs beat the stars last night, five to four.

We talked about this a bit off the air, Sean. In the first period, they didn't start so hot. The Leafs did not. And there were a ton of takes about, like, I think they need a new voice. behind the bench, even from our own friend, Dom Lus Chishin. Dom Lus Chishin, King of the Sheldon Keith, Dead Enders was like, it might be, it might be time for a move.

And then obviously the Leafs come back, William Nealander 3 point night, the Corps 4. I kind of hate saying that. It's brutal. It's kind of corny. But it really was like the Leafs Corps carried them. The main guys, Neelander, Matthews, Marner, Tavar's. carried them to a win over the stars. Because they're the only good players on the team.

Yeah. But I do think the Leafs are an interesting conversation right now because there is this question of should they be active at the deadline? Like, yeah, they just beat the Dallas Stars who I picked to win the Stanley Cup. I believe you did too. Mm-hmm. Or were you an Oilers guy this year? New Stars from the John.

Yeah. I, yeah. Love their top nine. Love Jake Ottinger. I think we both said, well, this year he's just been okay, but I think we both said, like, if Thomas Harley and Wyatt Johnson can have, like, good years, stars are going to be great. And Thomas Harley's been very good. So is Y' Johnson.

Same Yon Johnson. But he's on the top line. They broke up the sweet boy line. Pavelsky got dropped. Sad sad. And the sweet boy line, I just called them that. I don't care for them getting broken up is what I'm saying. Yeah.

I don't know why I called them sweet boys. I don't know any of them. I say that from my couch. Oh, they're so sweet. But I don't think you watch that win or you look at that stat line and just say like, wow, that's so impressive. Like the Leafs are, it's the only coming 10thers this year. They just have been fine. And I know for my time covering Bradtree Living with the Calgary Flames that he usually likes to say,

I take my cues from my team to decide what I'm going to do with the truck. deadline. And I feel like the cue that the Leafs are currently giving is like maybe this isn't a team that's worth spending a bunch of assets on. Like they just haven't been good enough. And that's kind of weird to say about a team that's like third in the Atlantic. Like when we're talking about the flames teams that they didn't add to, they were like five points out of the wild card or whatever. Right. So it is a little bit different. This team is still good by most metrics. But I just think they've been a little bit, like when you watch them play in the conversations around the Leafs are consistently just like, what is going on?

What's going on? Yeah. Like they're just kind of mid. They're a mid, good team, right? I mean, they're fifth in the east in points percentage, but they're also, but they're also, it seems like, a step or two behind Boston and Florida in the Atlantic Division, which I think is kind of the calculus for them, right? And they've been passed by the cane, which is a different division, but we're talking about the East.

The Canes had a very bad start, and now they're above the Leafs. Right, but it's fine. We'll limit this the Atlantic Division for the least purposes, though. Like, you can look at it and say like, okay, like, this is a talented team

at the top of the roster, at least. For as mid as they've looked, for as much as they've struggled to, you know, finish games in regulation or whatever, this is still, they're still fifth in points percentage. Well, the two best teams in the Eastern Conference are ahead of them in their division.

So like if you, if you honestly think that the Leafs can make a run through the, through the Atlantic, assuming they don't end up in a, which is probably not a fair assumption, you can't assume that they're going to end up in the Atlantic Division of playoffs. Maybe they end up, you know, playing Metro teams after they slip down

the line card at this point. But let's just say for our purposes that they stay in the Atlantic. Like, are they going to be Boston? Are they going to be Florida? Like, do you feel confident in their ability to do that? And I think that answer is what determines, you know, how they move at the deadline. And I also think that there's, in Haley, you and I, you and I talked about this before the record as well, there's assets that you could see them justifiably moving.

like maybe one of the first round picks. Like you like I can see them. I can see them doing that. And, and I can see looking at the move and seeing like this is, this was the right thing for them depending on their return. What you don't want to do is move Matthew Nyes or move like that top level of, of young player who's coming in and ready to contribute on cheap contracts,

which is what they need, right? It's moving forward. This can't just be a one year. This can't just be a one year fix now. they hear that and this is what signing matthews even though it's sort of short term and in nielander has done for them is that they can at least take a little bit of a longer view and say like hey these guys are going to be around for a few more years this isn't this isn't this situation where you know our windows is about to shut we're william neel we're william neilers about to walk into ufa and get a zillion years and a billion dollars from from someone else right like that's that's that's no longer the case they know that these guys are going to be together for better or worse for the foreseeable future which i think makes it less of a must have for them to go like all in here and maybe mortgage a year or two down the line but it is it's a it's a it's a fascinating question because like we keep saying then the east east east ain't that good

that's that's that's that's that's that's that's the contributing factor yeah i just think like jonas seagull actually had an article today but why the leaps cannot stand pat at the deadline even if it means dealing a first round pick. And I just, I don't agree. Like, I don't think, like, I think if, if you believe that the Leafs can fix their mistakes from a, let's just call it what it is, a bad off season, the John Klingberg move is the John Klingberg signing was bad, giving term to Ryan Reeves bad. Max Domi and Tyler Bertuzi, I liked those moves in the moment.

It was like, oh, yeah, that's great. If you can get Tyler Bertuzi on a one year and he can prove it so he can get a better deal in Boston next summer, wherever he wants to go. go do it. But those moves haven't worked out either. So there are mistakes that need to be fixed on this roster. And I just don't think those are things that you can fix at the trade deadline. Like sure, you can try to make your blue line better by getting Chris Tanev. But like, is that really going to make you all of a sudden a Stanley Cup contending blue line? Like when we look at the team that went last year, which was Vegas, that was a big, deep blue line that could crash and bang and play

well in front of their own net. And I don't think adding Chris Tanev to, you know, Timothy Lilligrin, Morgan Riley, Jake McCabe, and T.J. Brody. And Simon Fenwaz played well. But like, I don't think that's a Stanley Cup contending blue line still. And then if you add like a depth piece, like, oh, let's add Adam Henrique to the middle six. Like, is that going to be a cup winning group? I just think that there's more mistakes or issues on this Leaves roster, then like two deadline moves can fix, in my opinion. And that's, and I think it seems like the flames are waiting for a first rounder for Chris Tannave, and they should based on what the going rate has been with the moves that we've seen so far. Like, should the least be giving up a first

round pick for Chris Tanov? Listen, I'm a huge Chris Tannib fan. I covered the flames for a few years, but he's also 34 years old and he's had some injuries this year because he plays such a hard game, which is what makes him such a desirable player, especially in the postseason. This guy, I don't think I've seen a defender care more about just throwing his face in front of pucks. And like he's so smart. He's got a good stick, good gap control, da, da, da, da, da, da. So I'm all for the Leafs trying to get Chris Tanev. But I don't know if Chris Tanev all of a sudden makes them a cup contender.

Similar stuff we said about Jake Mazen. We saw it. We saw how that worked out too, right? the other thing too this is like kind of the overriding thing that I think about a lot whenever you try to decide whether a team should buy or sell or stand pat

is a lot of it revolves around the goaltender for me if you can say we're going in we're going into the playoffs with a dude who can steal us a series or two then roll the dice go out and add somebody and I know everybody it seems like

is back on the Ilya Samson of bandwagon because of five good starts he's had since since yeah release since christmas let's say since like a hl break since his break i guess i guess that maybe was i guess it's maybe it's maybe been six but we'll even throw out the first one there because he's stunk in it those last last five games he's first came back didn't he have a shutout um no

oh yeah i yeah you know what you're right you're right i i wasn't i wasn't going back for enough since his break overall he's at an eight eighty say percentage which is whatever since since December 29th which is when he really started playing well he had five games since three and two

929 say a percentage you know he's looked he's looked solid good for him you can't have goldfish memory here where it's like all right five good games smililis samsona makes us forget about the mess that the mess that he was

for the for the first few months before that So if you have faith on this dude and in that position as a playoff contender moving forward, like more power to you. But I don't. And I certainly don't like Yel Ely Samsona in the Atlantic Division playoffs against Florida and Boston. And to me, that's kind of the, that's kind of the overriding thing. And that, like, whatever, move, if you want to move a first round, pick, fine. If you want to, if you want to try to, you know, maybe get a guy with term who makes some sense. And if you know, maybe not, not exactly what we're talking about here for, like, see what's out there.

but to me the line for Toronto's drawn at like at the Nyes, at the group of Nyes. Yeah. And I don't think, I don't think they want to move those guys. It doesn't seem like it. I know Elliot Freeman reported that like that was that they were thinking about that like that those,

that that group of players entered the conversation when it seemed like they could maybe get Kuzmenko in Tanev at some point. Like that was sort of the, that was the way that was the way that was the way that, that Elliott phrase it from Vancouver like like a month ago. Like that's, that's what, what a package,

what are you looking at me like that for? Kuzmenko and Tanev. Yes. From Vancouver. Yes. Tannad's not in Vancouver. Or, you mean Tanev and Hannafin.

Z. Linholm. Teneh home. I guess it was Tanev and Linholm. Um, where it's, wait a second, wait a second.

When did, when it, when it, When a Christina of last playing in Vancouver is 10 years ago. Like, but it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was Lindelmanko. That's like the kind of package that they would rather that they would, that would be led by a guy like Nyes. And it's like, that's obviously out the window now because of his mental, a Lindelm trade. Yeah.

So. I just don't think that, like, I think if we were having this conversation next year and the, Leafs were good, not great. They've got first round picks they could use Mitch Marner and John Tavares are pending on restricted free agents. Then you go all in and say, well, we've got to try. But like this isn't the last year of the core, right? So if you're just trying to build for them right now,

like why don't you just let all these expiring deals go away and try to have a better summer? I don't know. It's true. Maybe I'm crazy. It's like when you say a better. Like when you vent to a friend about, when you, like, say a bunch of, like, stupid stuff and be like, but I don't know. But I don't know.

By the way. By the way, apologies. I did get that wrong from, from Elliott. Yeah. That's what are you talking about. One case where I do believe they would have done so is if they acquired both Chris Tannav and Nikita Zedorov from Calgary. Which, you know, okay. Those are guys like, again, you move out a really good young.

player if you know that you're getting both those guys back. That makes sense. But that obviously went out that went out the door after the Zadora trade. I know there were a lot of Leif's fans who were like, if that was the asking price for Zadora of how did we not get him? And it's because the Leafs or because the Flames didn't want to retain any salary and the Leaves didn't have enough cap space. It's pretty simple in my opinion.

Okay. The other interesting trade deadline team for me is the Panky. wins. I feel like they probably shouldn't be buyers. I don't think they can be buyers because they're a cap situation, or at least in like a meaningful way. But a lot of people are talking about Jake Gensel. He's a pending unrestricted free agent. There's been no updates in terms of contract extension. I am in the camp of like I don't care if he potentially walks. Like you can't trade Jake Gensel when you're what, five, six points out of a wildcard spot? Four points out of the wild card.

Yeah, and they've got a bunch of games in hand as well. Like they're right there. Like before the Linholm deal happened, I saw, I think it was Drance. And God bless him. But Jake Gensel was like the top of the list of like trade candidates for the Canucks. It's like, yeah, that's great. But like, why would the penguins get rid of Jake Gensel? And I said this to Jeff Merrick when,

I was doing my weekly hit on his show. And he was like, well, like the penguins might punt on the season. I was like, I don't think that they should. For all the reasons we just talked about the Leafs, the East is very bad. And I think you don't lose Jake Gensel, unless he's coming to you and says, like, trade me at, there's no way in hell I'm staying here.

Like, I just don't think you should trade him and punt on the season. When you have Sidney Crosby at a 90 plus point projection. Like, I just don't. You did all of this. stuff. You did all this stuff over the last year, two years to try to remain competitive in this window. You don't punt. Like I don't, you're already trying to go all in while you can. Like, you don't punt on the season, even if everyone's saying, like, you're probably not going to make the playoffs. I still think you got to try. Otherwise, what was the point of keeping everyone

together? They're the opposite of the leaves. Like, they don't have, the Leafs can say like, hey, we have Austin Matthews signed through X and we have William Nealander signed through X and we know that these guys are going to be a rich, Marner, we know that these guys are going to be part of good teams for the next five, six. Marner only has one year left, but yes, but Nielander and Matthews. Oh my God, I can't believe his contract's up already. That's so crazy. Oh, boy. I mean, yours are punning UFAs next year. Well, Matt, I, whatever. But Matthews and Nealander. You know that, you know that they're going to be relevant and. and good in some capacity for the next few years.

It's not true for the Pittsburgh Penguins. Every single year matters. Sidney Grasby's turned 37 in a few months. Like, whatever. These guys are old. You can't just say like, yeah, we'll be there in two years because you probably won't be. So like, you roll the dice with what you have. You keep Jake Gensel around.

You say, like, we have Tris and Jari, who is a flawed gold team. or deeply flawed goaltender. He's inconsistent, but the dude leads the league in shutouts. He is capable of losing his series by himself. He's also capable of stealing one. Like, he's, he's that kind of volatile, volatile player. When you roll your dice on those guys, and you say, like, this is a year where Sidney Crosby is going to finish, he's going to get, he's going to show up on MVP ballots and whatever else, like, roll the dice with what you have. Because what do you do? You trade Gensel with the hope of recouping Jake Gensel three years down the line.

Like it's not, it's not, it's not going to happen. Right. Like even if they get, even if they get a Lindholm package for, for him, like, what does that matter? You get a flawed roster player who makes too much money in Kuzmenko, a first round pick, a conditional pick, and then like a B plus prospect. Like, what good does that do the Pittsburgh penguin in 2024? Like, nothing. And also, they beat the breaks off the Winnipeg Jets a couple days ago. Like, this team is not bad.

Yeah, they just play. They're not, they're not great in their series. They were just so confusing for large chunks of the season. And they still are. The power play still stinks. There's something that Carlson's been fine. Like the mix with him on the power play is not right. And it might never be there.

but at the same time this is this is the situation that they've chosen it doesn't happen that often they've got they've got one of the five greatest players of all time still playing at an extremely high level yeah of guinea malcon and chrysalting give him give him some respect chrysletang number number 99 in the n hl 99 um like this this all comes back to crosbie like you got you You got to make a count. You got to do right by him. And if the end result is that Jake Gensel walks and signs for $7.5 million a year with a Carolina Hurricanes or whatever. At least you tried this year.

We tried. That's it. You don't do all of the stuff that this organization's done in terms of keep it. Like resigning Malkin, resigning Latang, trading for Eric Carlson, bringing in a new GM. Like you don't do all these things to try to remain competitive just to trade one of your best players at the deadline. line because you're five points out of the playoff spot. It's stupid. Right.

With four games in hand on the teams, on the teams that they're chasing. It's like worth noting again that this team has a 564 point percentage and is, you know, in like pretty decent shape down the stretch to, to make it in. Like you can't ask for that much more, right? Like what would you, like, if they would have gone in the tank and like lost, you know, whatever, and it would have been 11 points out of a playoff spot. Sure, we're maybe having a different conversation. Having a different conversation, but that's not the way it is.

Yeah. Let's take a break when we come back. We'll talk about some more hockey stuff. There's a few things that have been. There's a few more news and notes that we could talk about, John. Oh, really? I think one that I found interesting. This was discussed on 32 thoughts on their Monday show with Jeff and Elliot,

and then Elliot Friedman had this in the written version of 32 thoughts, just like a quick conversation. I don't think a merger is the correct term that Elliot uses here, because I don't think it would be a merger. But essentially there's been, it sounds like there's rumors about the NCAA and the CHL and their relationship. and essentially NCAA coaches are being presented with the idea of offering CHL players eligibility in their league post juniors.

So for people who maybe don't know, like if you play in the CHL, which is the Ontario Hockey League, the Quebec major junior hockey league, I believe they just rebranded. I'm sorry, I don't know the new name or the WHL, you lose your NCAA eligibility. So it's like you either go the college route or the juniors route. And I can play you can go from junior A to playing NCAA hockey. But like major junior. I know.

I'm just like that's I. I said the CHL, not junior A. I know. That's that the exit there's an existing pipeline between junior A and NCAA. I's that's I just want to. People don't like people don't realize. Understandably, I don't think people realize that there's a lot of machinations here. But like there are junior hockey players, just not CHL players that are currently playing NCAA

Hockeys. Okay. But like you can't go from the CHL to NCAA. Like you either play major junior hockey in Canada or NCAA hockey. And then of course you can go Canadian University route wherever else if you can't make either of those leagues essentially. And I think we've seen over the last few years that the NCAA double a route has been a lot more popular.

It's been like very fruitful. A lot of like top picks come out of like top college programs are producing elite players, whether we're talking about like Quinn Hughes, Adam Fantilli. Canadian. Canadians are not like think about. Maddie Baneers. Adam, Adam Fantilly. Yeah.

Macklin Celebrini. Like you have you have elite elite Canadian. Totally. Youth hockey players. going the incident play route. Yeah. And of course there's still elite players who are playing the CHL, Connor Bred obviously,

playing for the Regina Pats. But it looks like there are at the very least discussions around, like, can a guy go from the CHL to the NCAA? And I think what's interesting is, like, those guys wouldn't end up being like NHL draft picks unless they only do like one year in the CHL and then leave for the NCAA. But like I feel like we'd mostly be talking about guys who are just, you know,

trying to get an education once they're done playing hockey and then they can keep playing hockey. For the most part, we see those guys going from Canadian Hockey League to like Canadian University hockey. So guys will like finish up at with the Oshua Generals and then go play for the TMEU Bold or whatever, right? So they can go to school and keep playing. But now it looks like they're having conversations about can they keep NCAA eligibility.

And I just don't know how I feel about that. Like, do you have a thought, Sean? I find this all fascinating. I don't think it ends up happening, especially if it's like, I don't think you could let a guy play one year in the OHL and then go NCAA. Like, I don't,

I don't know. I just don't think, I don't think there should be. There's too many. I mean, like, I'm sure that's like probably using like air quotes, like on the table here.

But that, but it going from a conceptual thing is from someone who's followed NCAA. sports my entire life. Those are some slow, those are slow wheels to turn, right? Like, like there's, there's a lot, and they're

extremely resistant to change. And the reason all this is happening is because of, you know, the influx of NIL money, which has changed things. Players can now make money off their name, image, and likeness in the NCAA. It's also changing in the wake of some unionization efforts that are taking place, a huge,

huge victory in New York where Dartmouth players are being, you know, they're, they were ruled by some lower court that they're employees of the university, which is, which is, which is, which is, which is wild. That's just Dartmouth basketball. I said New York. I meant, I meant New Hampshire. Yeah, but, but that, but there's that, that, that has ramifications, right. And it's, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a big one.

Like that could end up, who knows what that leads to. down the road. So there's plenty of questions there. I just don't, I don't, I don't see this. I, like whatever.

And I don't mean to be dismissive of it because it certainly sounds like that, I mean, we know the discussions are taking place, but the idea of this happening on any kind of, you know, short-term time frame is just like, it's really, really hard for me to imagine.

Sure. And I, I just think like, especially with NIL, the NCAA route, going to be even more attractive for top young hockey players because the CHL does not pay its players. And you're also kind of just at the mercy of the CHL entry draft, whereas NCAA, like, you can pick where you want to go. You can go to a school where you, in a city that you really want to live in or a really good team.

You can go to a school that has, you know, a really great NIL feeder system. Like, you want to go make a bunch of money and play. Go to LSU. does LSU have a hockey team? I don't know. But you can have more control over where you're going? I was like, I don't know. I was thinking of like, they make a lot of money.

Their NAL system, like everyone makes so much money at LSU. And this is money, by the way. I think LSU should have a hockey team. Go Tigers. Go tigers. This is money, NAL money that hasn't quite found its way. to hockey players for the record, like, based on some research I've done.

Like, could that happen soon? Like, absolutely. Absolutely. Is it, can you know, like, I, we, uh, we talked to, we talked to Luke Hughes about this last year when he was, you know, he was, uh, king of the campus. King, I was, I was, I was going to, I was going to, I was going to say King shit at, it, but whatever. Um, well, you ended up saying it. So, that's fine. Me and Max asked him, like what's going on with NIL stuff. And he was like, he was like,

nothing, basically. And he, he, he would watch juice from the hoop team and the, in the, in the football team, come into a place where he was eating and get like,

and get their stuff comp because they had relations, like, relationships with like, whatever, whatever bar on campus where they would do social posts and whatever. And they could come in and eat for free. And Quinn's there just trying to like, Jack's there just,

my God, Luke's there trying to just buy. Jim, Ellen, what's the dog's name? Pookie. Luke. He's wearing a really nice dress today. Luke was in a restaurant at Michigan when like when Hunter Dickinson, it was a hooper came in, eats for free.

And Luke's just like, yeah, I was just trying to buy a burger. He's picking up his own tab. Right. So the money, the NIL money hasn't filtered down quite as maybe you'd expect to elite an NCAA hockey players. Does that happen eventually? Like, who knows? But I can see why if I were the CHL,

I would be running scared a little bit because you're saying like, okay, well, what if, what if there's, uh, what if all of a sudden there's a bunch of, there's an NIL collective at Boston University who decides to start paying players, you know, out the, out of the wazoo or, or Michigan or, or wherever else. I would,

I would also be trying to explore a merger with the NCAA in that case, where, you know, you can, you can do both. I think, and I, I think the CHL has much more to gain from a merger.

Oh, yeah. Than the NCAA does. Yeah, it would be the NCAA, like, conceding in a way because they're already, I think they've,

like, taken steps ahead. So it just doesn't really make sense for the NCAA. If you're the NCAA and you're getting guys like , Labrini and Fantilli and whoever else. Every year you have a few, like truly like top three, top five players, you know, plant taking the college hockey route.

Like, why do you mess with anything? Like, like, like who cares? I can understand why coaches would because if you want an influx of, it'd be great if you could have a second pair that's made up of, you know,

a pretty good CHL player. But I don't know. Yeah. That's a give back. And like I said, the Canadian end of things has much more to gain than the American end of things. But then that would also totally wreck Canadian University hockey as well. You know what? I shouldn't even say that.

The CHL has much more to gain. I shouldn't say Canada overall because, yeah, the U-Sport thing would be decimated by those. Totally. Because a lot of U-sport teams are just like former CHL guys who, you know, maybe sometimes there'll be a few guys who'll get like an NHL training camp invite. but like these aren't guys who are making the next step to the big leagues. They'll go play CHL, then they'll go to Canadian University of hockey, then they'll go play in Europe or they'll get a job, and that would just decimate the Canadian University hockey system.

So I don't like it. I don't think it should happen. Case close. The other thing to bring up, so I saw this in the Raleigh News and Observer, it's from Chip Alexander. Sebastian Alho was kind of displeased that he didn't get to take part, in the skills competition.

And I agree. And you know what? I will say I was at skills and I didn't really want to talk too much about All-Star. The only thing I will say after going to my first All-Star weekend, that is a made-for-television event, especially the skills. At one point, I was like, oh, my God, why have we been here for three hours? I could have been on my couch for three hours. Love that.

Love that. Don't love sitting in a press box for three hours. It's for 10-year-olds. Yeah. That's what All-Star Games are for. I don't hate All-Star. My voice is crack. I got upset. But I think it, I prefer, one of the things that I liked about skills, and I wonder if there's just some kind of like middle ground. Because I do think it was improved this year, but it almost felt like empty on the rink. And on the benches, it was all just like, I think staff and like people. There was like a couple of. kids running around. I like seeing like all of the players on the benches. Like I like seeing everyone kind of mingling around. I like seeing different people involved. And so I think just having

12 skaters and then only those 12 and then everyone else just kind of like back of house or in their hotel watching. It felt a little bit weird. Yes. In their hotels. I'm sure that I'm sure that's where all those guys were. I don't know. I don't care. Um, but if I'm Sebastian Naho and I see Nikita Kutrov, like, pasting everything, it's just like, you know what? I would have liked to, I would have liked to do a fastest skater lap and tried to win a million dollars. That would have been like, like, I just think that's kind of lame. And if I, and if Kutrov didn't want to be there, he should have just said like, no, thank you. Let

somebody else come. Yeah. And I think we know now too that I, look, we watched on TV. Kutrave, you know, know, biffed on the first event and then just kind of went on autopilot. We know now, based on the way this works, that, like, you don't have to be great on, on your first, on your first couple events. Like, you can, you can make up the difference down down the line. So be there, make David won the first event and then, like, won the whole thing. Sure, but like, but like, but guys, there were guys who were like, Passernock. He, he, he came in second, he came in second in the first event and didn't even make the final, right? So, like,

there's, there's some shuffling that can happen. Mm-hmm. even though Connor McDavid set himself up to win a million dollars. A million extra dollars in perpetuity. Yeah. I wonder if he donated that. Who knows? But like in this is the choice.

This is the choice that the league has made here where they're like, we're giving back the visual of having all the other dudes on the ice, on the bench, milling around, having fun. You can't have that. when you only have 10 guys that are in the event. It's like, it's one or the other. And that's a shame.

But that's, but that's also the cost of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of,

of, of, of, of, adding the, adding the, adding the, uh, adding the million dollars to the purse.

Now, I, there's for sure tweaks that can and should be made. And I feel bad. I would have loved to watch Sebastian Ojo in that event too, because I think he like, low key would have been a, would have been a real, would have been a real contender.

But yeah, you know, it's not where we are. Sad. I think that's it. Sad for Sebastian O'Hoh. You're calling it? I don't know. Do you want to talk about the four nations face off?

I thought you were saying, okay, that's it. Goodbye. Well, I was. Okay. I don't care about the four nations face on it. Is that what we're going on it? Is it official? I think that's what it's called, yeah.

Oh, brother. I think my only take on that is that America might win, and I think that's sad. for me as a Canadian. And also, there's no David Posternak or Leon Dricidal, which kind of sucks, but I don't think they were going to do like team Canada, team USA and then two team Europe's when you could fill Swedish and finish rosters. They could have just done the other full Europe roster and the U25 roster, but they weren't going to do that again because that took too many good players away from Canada in the U.S. That was never going to happen again.

But like, I don't know. I think I disagree. Like, you can fill those rosters for Sweden and Finland. So just do it. You know, like, why would you do Team Europe and under Team U23? That would just be even more North American players when you can fill two rosters from European players, in my opinion. Yeah. Yeah.

If that's, the issue here is that they needed all these guys that be on NHL contracts. So if you have like a depth of talent where you can come up with two all European teams outside of, outside of Sweden and Finland, then like, great, go for it. It's a loss. We're not going to see dry sidel. We're not going to see. We're not going to see. But there's a bunch of good Swiss players in the league that are that they're not going to be part of it.

It's a bummer. They're going to have a very nice vacation because I assume that break is going to be pretty long. God, yeah, good, good for that, man. Like, whatever, I hope they get to go somewhere nice. That's always it. That's always it whenever guys don't make the All-Star team, it's a similar vibe where it's like, you know what, man, just take a nice long weekend and go somewhere warm and enjoy yourself. It's maybe not where you'd want to be, but it's a decent consolation prize. For sure.

All right. Let's end the show. I'm done. Okay. We're done here. Thanks, everybody for listening to this episode of the Athletic Coffee Show. I hope you enjoyed Sean and I trying to stay on track for an hour. I hope you enjoyed this News and Notes edition.

If you did like it, leave us a five-star rating and review. I think it's really funny. News and notes. They were News and Notes. That's all we're really doing. That's all our jobs really are, news and notes, in written and audio format. Brother. So if you enjoy that, leave us a five-star rating and review.

If you're enjoying the show, and right now you can get a one-year- subscription to The Athletic for $2 a month when you visit theathletic.com slash hockey show. The all-new athletic hockey show starts on Monday with Ian Mendez and Mark Lazarus, along with Pierre LeBrun and Chris Johnson. Chris Johnston. What's his name? Carl Jameson. With Pierre LeBrun and CJ.

Then it's Sean Gentilly and Sean. Mac can do on Wednesdays. Max returns with a tan with us on Thursday. Our show's staying the same. So if you hate us, sorry. We're not going anywhere. And then I think Friday, Prontman will still be bopped around

whenever he wants. So that's the new lineup. The Prond dog makes his own schedule. Prondman's going to pop off with just like a solo prospect series tomorrow. Be like, you know, what would be funnier is if he made Max? do the prospect series well on his honeymoon.

Corey's recording a solo prospects series episode right now. It is desk. It is computer isn't plugged in anything. He's just talking to himself about whatever. We do love Corey. He's so fun. We were at a wedding with Corey and it was very fun. So it's all fun and games.

Okay, goodbye. Thanks for listening.