The Athletic Hockey Show - Shea Weber injuries to prevent him from playing next season? Parise, Suter, Yandle buyouts. Andre Tourigny - Arizona Coyotes head coach. two time Stanley Cup Champion Dean Lombardi

Episode Date: July 15, 2021

On the Two Man Advantage edition of the Athletic Hockey Show, Scott Burnside and Pierre Lebrun welcome the new head coach of the Arizona Coyotes Andre Tourigny and Dean Lombardi, two time Stanley Cup Champion with the Los Angeles Kings, the current senior advisor to Chuck Fletcher and the Philadelphia Flyers.Tourigny talks about his opportunity with the Yotes, the rebuild and what he learned from Hockey Canada and his time as an assistant with Patrick Roy and the Colorado Avalanche.Lombardi marvels at the job that Vegas has done as an expansion team, he talks about how content he is with his job advising Chuck Fletcher in Philadelphia, and if there is a book to be written on his life in hockey. Scotty and Pierre talk about the injuries to Shea Weber which reportedly will keep him from playing next season, and how the injury will affect who the Habs will protect in the expansion draft.The guys discuss the buyouts to Ryan Suter and Zach Parise in Minnesota, Keith Yandle in Florida, and what we might see next as the news in the NHL continues to be very fluid leading up to the Expansion draft. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey, everybody. Scott Burnside back for another edition of Two Man Advantage, the podcast, part of the Athletic Hockey Show Network. Pierre, I feel I really need to speak quickly to you because, hey, I'm afraid that you will just leave the podcast to take a call on breaking news. And also because there are like 10,000 moving parts as we are taping this a few days away from the expansion, Seattle expansion list having to be prepared by the 30 other teams, not 31. because Vegas out, but 30 other teams, everyday buyouts, changes, trades. Let me ask you, how are you doing? I worry about your mental health. Are you doing okay? Yes, I'm fine because you know why?

I'm looking at my calendar, and every day that goes by, I'm closer to a long getaway. That's what gets me up in the morning, my friend. That's good. Well, I know your phone is ringing nonstop. And honestly, like, I'm looking at the list. I'm looking and literally, I don't know where to start. Not, you know, let's just, let's throw a dart. But of the probably 10 monster news events of the last week, since it feels like you and I haven't spoken in a month.

But I am really curious, news sort of breaking out of Quebec, Montreal overnight, real concerns about Shea Weber and the Montreal Canadian's captain and his ability, his health moving forward. and whether he'll be able to play next season and what that means for the expansion, exposure list and all those kinds of things. Did you have a sense that this might have been in the offing or what's your take on how this is unfolding with one of the great warriors of the game? Yeah, I did have a sense to some degree.

I sort of got word early yesterday morning to be on the lookout potentially, but I don't know that I thought that it would be, this severe. And again, I want to be careful, Scott, because, you know, Shea Weber is still, you know, I suspect will undergo more tests and I think probably get another opinion. And so got to be careful not to speculate too far here. For sure. But what I can certainly say with, you know, with confidence is that, you know, there's, a decent chance that he's not available to play next year. There are,

you know, short-term concern is a thumb that somehow played through a really damaged thumb throughout the playoffs and was shooting the buck like the guy's pain tolerance is ridiculous. But also long-term concerns for that ankle that you remember he had surgery on a few years ago and also the knee. So it's really a hat-trick of concerns for for Shea Weber. And I think, you know, one of the reasons why the Canadians haven't come out and said anything yet officially is I think that Cheever needs, you know, needs to seek more intel here. in terms of next steps. We certainly wish him the best.

I mean, it's just incredible to me what a warrior that guy is. But, you know, in the here and now, the business of the game continues, it has some huge impact on decisions for the Montreal Canadiens because, for one, it really doesn't make any sense to protect him for the expansion draft, right? Right.

He's not going to be a player next year. And it means that, You know, I think the debate internally for the haves was whether they would have to protect 4D and go 8 skaters to make sure they don't lose Ben Chirot and therefore only protect four forts. That was the initial thought, I think. And now they can probably go 7-3-1, which I suspect they will and leave whoever exposed. And, you know, why would Seattle pick him at this point? So all those ramifications, of course, you don't replace you whoever in your lineup, but I'm sure the halves will look at the market at least, you know, know, depth-wise or whatever, look at what's out there.

So, yeah, just a lot to digest. And my sense of the situation is that GM Mark Bergman probably went into this week, crossing his fingers at, okay, maybe we won't have shade until December or January, let's say, because of his ailments, but we'll still get him back in time for the second half next year, or at least the playoffs. But obviously, my understanding is after Shane Weber saw the dock on Wednesday that, the haps got the news in the evening that it was, you know, worse than they thought. So, yeah, that's a real body blow up with a bunch of all Canadians.

Well, and the ripple effect, if, and again, because we're so early in this process, but obviously the league will be involved taking a look at what, you know, what happens to Shea Weber and, you know, he's got a contract with a caput of 7-8-57 through 25-26. So there's lots, there's lots outstanding there. What happens, you know, there is a potential for a cap recapture, right, with Nashville. Yeah, it doesn't really, that part doesn't really affect Montreal. No, it's, yeah, I don't have it in front of me, but even for Nashville, they changed the cap recapture rule in the new CBA extension to mitigate some of that impact, by the way. Right.

I don't know if you remember that, but there still is some, I just don't have it in front of me. That's more of Nashville. But the thing is, Scotty, that's only if he retires. Right, yeah, of course. These guys rarely retire. Like, Brent Seabrook, I don't know if people realize this. Brent Seabrook didn't retire, right? Right.

Yeah, he's still getting paid the rest of his deal. You know, he'll have to fail a physical every year and then still gets paid and the hawks have to carry him at LTIR. Right. Like, so I think, now, again, I think Chey Weber probably still hopes to come back and play whenever he can. I don't think there's any decisions yet on that way on his future, although they're maybe. maybe at some point. But let's say Shay Weber doesn't play another game the rest of his career, which you can't discount as a possibility. I don't think he's going to retire. I think he's... Right. Why would you? Right. And so my point is the capture capture only comes into play for

retirement. Right. Yes. Which is why it's only happened once in as far as I can tell since the rule came into place in 2012, Roberto Luong, right? Right. Right. He actually retired and delivered a blow to the Vancouver Canucks in the Capriccapture. But yeah. So, yeah, so she She whoever next year was slated to make six million dollars. Now, his caped is $7.85. We were slated to make $6 million next year, which he will still make, by the way. I don't know why I said it was. Yeah.

He will make $6 million. But then it was one of those old crazy deals from the previous CBA that the Flyers offer sheet. Goes down to $3 million in 22, 23. And then one, one, and one, the final three years, which we always figured would probably, you know, depending how he felt physically, I don't know that he was ever going to come back and play for a million dollars. But although the guy is the ultimate competitor, he might just to tell everyone fooled you. So we'll see where all this goes. But the question is if he indeed can't play next year, which is, again, all indications that we're getting right now,

does he come back to play for $3 million in 22, 23? So a lot, you know, a lot to go through here for Shiaweber. Again, we wish him the best. Yes. You know, ultimate warrior, a lot to go through here. But I think it starts with getting some more answers on his health. Couldn't agree more about Shea Weber and really, really, the prime focus should be about his health and what is best for he and his family. But it does, listen, I got so excited about talking about the breaking events.

I forgot to mention Pierre. We were going to have some great guests today. We've got Andre Tourinié. I know you coach me on the pronunciation of New Arizona. Yes, the new head coach of the Arizona Coyotes is going to join us. And two-time Stanley Cup champion GM, Dean Lombardi, now senior advisor to Chuck Fletcher with Philadelphia Flyers, is going to drop by. We haven't even talked to Dean yet, but I already feel smarter because I know that that's going to be great. But before we get to Andre, it seems like there's a theme with the defense when we talked about,

Weber, since you and I spoke, future Hall of Famer, first ballot Hall of Famer, I think, is guaranteed Duncan Keith going to Edmonton. Ryan Suter bought out, along with his longtime pals, Zach Perise, both bought out by the Minnesota Wild. And I think as you and I were just starting to tape this podcast, Florida Panthers confirming, or I think you were able to confirm that they will be buying out another veteran defenseman, Keith Yandel. By the time this podcast is posted, that will have already been announced. should be us around New Eastern.

Yeah. Just now, are there things, let's just take that as a group. Are there things that you're like, geez, I did not see that coming more? You know, what's your take on all of that? Because those are significant moves in and of themselves. But I think also when you take them as a whole, it really does have the potential to change the landscape, you know, across the NHL in terms of those caliber of players. being available. Yeah, I think the difference from this process to the Vegas one that I can see so far is that teams had way more

runway to prepare for this one. Like if you remember, the Vegas thing happened pretty quick and the rules were new and teams are scrambling. So two things, teams have had more time to prepare for Seattle. And two, one of the lessons from the Vegas one was don't give your players no move clauses because it really ties your hands for your protection list. So fewer no move clauses have been given out in the last three years since Vegas entered elite, which is another impact on this process for Seattle.

And really, until we have this brutal global pandemic, which has changed your lives forever, Seattle was really up against it. And because teams have more time to prepare, because they learned their lessons, because they weren't going to overthink it and make dumb deals. But then the pandemic did hit. And now we have a flat gap. And that overnight changed a lot of leverage here and has given Seattle the opportunity to, frankly, extort, I think, some side deals between now and, you know, whenever they can get them done. You know, teams have until Saturday at 5 p.m. Eastern to submit their protection list.

But I think Ron Francis is going to be able to do well on a number of fronts, you know, to get draft picks and potentially prospects because teams are just at the cap. They have no cap. Yeah. Well, we talked about, you know, what Tampa is going to do, and I know you address that. And your discussion with Julian Breezebaw, the GM there, very candid discussion, I thought, and I thought good on you for asking about Stephen Stamp Coast. An absolutely legitimate question, but there are a lot of teams that are going to be in, well, they're going to have very difficult decisions to make. And that one's circle back to the Minnesota Wild. I mean, those, you know, Bill Garron, you know,

I don't know whether it's easy or not, but, you know, the, you know, the path of least resistance is, you know, maybe buy out Zach Perise because we saw at the end that, you know, that his role with the wild had diminished, but certainly Ryan Souter is still playing top four minutes. But to buy both of them out, that's, those are, those are big, hard, long ranging decisions. And I was, I was, you know, I didn't think Zach Pruzee would be back in one form or another. I don't know how they were going to. do it. So I'm that wasn't as surprised by that, with all due respect. I mean, I think he can still help a team, but not at that salary and not in that fit. But I was, I was not, I did not see Ryan Suter coming. I mean, that really did surprise me. And I get it. I mean, when, when you hear Bill Guerin explain it, I understand where they're coming from. And probably the part that he didn't say that I'll say it is, you know, I think those two guys have been the two leading voices

in that room for many years. And I think part of this too is probably in changing the roster over is also changing the locker room leadership voices over. And I think that's part of this too. Yeah. No, I agree entirely. But we're going to take a break, Pierre. Still lots of news to catch you. But we'll catch it up later in the podcast.

All right. As promised, great to be joined now by new Arizona Coyote's head coach, André Tourini. Pierre, just before, how did I do? Because you know, you coach me on the, on the accents. How did we do there? Not bad, Mon Ami. Not bad.

Andre, thank you for joining us. And maybe just, I mean, I don't know where you are right now, but maybe tell us a bit about the transition as you get ready to take on the head coaching job in Arizona. It must be a crazy time for you and your family. But where are you at? And what's the transition been like since you took the job? It's a lot of work for sure. I'm in Ottawa right now.

I came back last Friday. Came back home last Friday after a little bit of time in Arizona. I had to come back here, wait for my visa. So my visa will be done. I'm going back to Arizona. So right now, like you know, the expansion draft, the draft, the free agency. So a lot of video watching video communication with Bill

about possible move, other player from other team and different stuff. So really busy but exciting and a lot of fun as well. Really important to say we're working and building our staff and making sure we have the best staff as possible. that's super important. So working on that as well. Andre, I think it's so fascinating the decision that you are faced with. And I always say it's good that there are hard decisions,

but there are also good hard decisions to have. It's good to be wanted. And here you are with a rather unique job at Hockey Canada. Yeah. Where you're going to be part of the Olympic staff when you took this thing, another world juniors. You would have been head coached for the men's worlds next spring. like it was a really good gig at hockey Canada

and yet out of nowhere and correct me if I'm wrong you're probably thinking after you do that with Ok Canada maybe the calls to start coming in terms of NHL head coaching opportunities but lo and behold the NHL coaching opportunity comes halfway through your hockey Canada gig

so what was that like for you to have to balance that? You know that's that's where it's different than PlayStation. The real life is a great different. You cannot time everything. You know it's you're right, it was a really good situation, or it was a good problem to have if you want in the sense of the Olympics,

it's a dream, it's, you know, representing my country always been something super special. They don't want to go back at the war junior. Everything I wanted, I had it. I could have it in the sense of the word junior in charge, the war championship in charge, going at the Olympic, presenting your country, I would have been phenomenal. But when I had the chance to be with Shane Donne

at the World Championship, asking a million questions about the ownership in Arizona, about the organization, about the vision, about what they wanted to accomplish there, and what was the plan. And then the interview process started, talk to Bill. I had a good connection with Bill Armstrong

and meet Alex John. junior and had your good heroes and the people there. I felt, I felt good with those people. I felt the connection was good. So then that is where the wheels start to spin and you say, okay, there's 32 job. There's, there's 8 billion people on that planet and there's 32 of those jobs. So at some point, I was kind of a, that's what I want to be, that's what I want to do. I want to be an HL head coach.

and there's an opportunity with people I trust with an organization. I had a good connection. So as much as it was tough, at the end, it was a no-brainer for me. Wow. Andre, I'm curious about, you know, what kind of, you know, when your discussions with Bill Armstrong, because if I think back to the last draft, when he came over for St. Louis, it wasn't really,

you know, he couldn't really take part. And so this, this is his first. true go through in building this team. And I wonder if that's appealing to you that it's sort of you and Bill will sort of grow up with this team because it's my senses. This is going to be a different looking team next season, younger. And I wonder how appealing that was to you to sort of be in on the, that's not quite the ground floor, but it's my sense is this team is really going to be looking a lot different moving forward. That's a wriggle point. I did like the vision of Bill.

You know, I've been in junior, but I've been GM a long, long time. And for me, what's important is to have, to have a plan, you know, to have a destination kind of. That's a part I like about Bill. It's what's not about, okay, we want to want to be a good team every year. It's more than that. You want to have a championship team, a team who will win on the conference. consistent base.

So it's not about, it's not about, okay, let's do the best weekend this year and we'll see for next year. It's about building, sitting together, building a plan and looking at a big picture and saying, okay, where, what's the destination, what's the, how long it will take, what's the plan, map it out and making a tough decision after that because everybody wants to win the, I never met anybody in hockey or sports who said, oh, you know, if we win, it's all right. If we don't, no big deal. No, everybody wants to win.

We, I want to win. Everybody wants to win. Now, are we willing to take the hard decision, make the hard move in order to have, execute the plan and have the final destination, get at the final destination. So if you look around the league, if you look Tampa Bay, one day they had to take their really hard. decision and make really a hard move who lead to that Stanley Cup back-to-back team. So I didn't want to be a part of a program who had the same willingness and same vision to take those hard decisions. And, Andre, I'm wondering if you've sought out advice from fellow coaches around the game

about, you know, entering your first NHI coaching position, you know, a lot of people have gone through it, you know, the lessons learned. and I'm wondering if you're using the offseason to maybe reach out to some guys that way. Absolutely. I did that. I talked with coach and GM as well. You know, the beauty of being part of a hockey Canada,

you make friends every year in the sense of, you know, you're at the U-18, you're with all the guys for the draft, the best prospects. So suddenly the GM and the NHL, they call you because they want to have your opinion on character, attitude, flyer evaluation, all of it.

So I had a, I knew, I knew enough guys who I can call and ask opinion, and the opinion on the roster, opinion on the, the organization, opinion on how I should conduct my business. Oh,

I should do my thing. And I gather enough information. But at the same time, Pierre on that, as much as I really enjoyed the opinion on a lot of people, there, there's a reason. or there's a way I do my thing

and then I am who I am. I don't want to change because you're in the NHL. The same thing for a player. If you're a player, you get to the NHL, you don't arrive in the NHL and say, okay, now I will change. Now I will be a different player. That normally doesn't fly really high. It doesn't go through really well.

So I am who I am. I have my leadership style, my communication style. That won't change. It's just like I always, then I want to be better. Every day I try to be better. And there's a few things I need to keep getting better at in order to become the best coach I can be. Andre, I think people understand that you have an incredible record coaching some of the top young players in Canada at all kinds of different levels.

But people may not know that you do have some NHL experience working both with the Avalanche in Colorado and Ottawa with the Senators. and I wonder how important you feel those experiences were with what you're going to do now because the line in the sand is pretty clear between an assistant and an associate coach and the head coach. What do you think you learned in terms of those experiences? You know what? I like to – communication is a big thing for me, and I like to talk with player. My first experience in Colorado, you know, we can say whatever we won, but we're before the season. We sit in the coach's office and we talk about how I want to do our thing.

The head coach is Patrick Arwa. Four Stanley Cup, All the Famer. Sit right by me, six inches beside me, you have Adam Foote, whose jersey's retire won two Stanley Cup, one gold medal for Canada and about every event he went, including the Olympics. Then you have Joe Sackick, all the famers. There is, I can talk about him all day. And then you have Tim Army, who's coach been a assistant.

and coach for Tawson game in the NHL. And you have Mario. So there's those people who you share with them and you talk about coaching philosophy. You talk about player. You talk about what kind of team we want to have in success, be successful on the Watt and stuff like that. And then you go with the player. But the abs I've been really fortunate because if you look at the player, we had it from Jerome McGillow from Paul Stasney, Ryan O'Reilly and Alex Steingate played Tauson

in the NHL. They'll win the cop, Danny Breyer, Corey Sarich, and it can go on and on. And, you know, those guys who were veteran, Brad Stewart, another guy tossing games, Stanley Cup winner, who they know, they've been there. They've been in the trenches. They know the game and talk a lot with those guys. And you learn from the players or the coaches you work with. And I think that was huge for me to learn about what the other. like, what they don't like, and how to communicate with those guys and how much you can trust

those guys, pick their brain and go into, you need to have a philosophy as a team, as a coach, as an organization, but you can, you can as well communicate and sell your message by a fair and legit communication with those guys. That's such a good point. What are your thoughts on, you know, the modern game? And it's funny because I think that, you know, we've got more information at our disposal than ever, obviously, with analytics and how you translate the analytics in front of you and how you use that at your disposal. And yet these NHL playoffs, it's a lot of old school, you know,

big defensemen bringing us back in time of it with the way that the, that, you know, Tampa's big boys, Montreal's big boys, the Islanders and Vegas. And I think that's what I love. about the game is that you continue to modernize and use the info at hand, but you also remember that come playoff time, there's still an element of grit there. So what's your thought on all that? That's it. I think exactly, like you, we all want to be sexy. We all want to find a new great thing, then you be kind of an innovative and all of it. But at the end of the day, when the playoffs start, there's no secret. Everybody knows what the opponent will do.

You know what you have to do. And now it's about execution. It's about heart. It's about willingness. You know, there's, I often say that it's one thing in the NHL to make the playoff. And it's another thing to be billed for the playoff. It's two different things. And if you're built for the playoff too much, you're not sure you will make the playoff.

Interesting. That's the balance. you must have. But at the same time, those professional players, they want to win. And I don't have to go in the room in Arizona and talk about how Tampa,

how well they play defensively and how hard to battle. Our guys know that. If you know that, Ger, if you know that, Scott, if I know that, don't you think they know? They watch the playoff as much as we did.

They follow that. They know. That's what change, in my opinion, if you look, over the years. Every player wants to be good defensively now. There's 99% of the player in the NHL or probably 100% of the player in the NHL know how important it is. Now it's to have that drive, that motivation to do it every game, every day, and to try to get as close as possible from the perfection in that aspect. And I think the next step in the game is really to make all those details offensively, skill-wise,

to be able to get the next inch to take advantage of your opponent. But I think the commitment to play defensively, the player knows that. Now, to have the motivation to do it every day. That is where we need to build an environment of culture where our player has that motivation to do it on the daily base. Yeah. Andre, you were talking about Shane Dome. We had Shane on the podcast a few months ago and after he'd taken up his new position with the organization and we talk a lot about, you know, what the work that needs to be done in that community. And I know ownership is committed to really sort of broadening the appeal of the game in Arizona and certainly in the Phoenix area. And I wonder if you and Bill have talked about that because, you know, what kind of. of role there might be for you in that. And it may be different than what you've experienced before in your coaching experiences where it's it's not just the team. It's how the team connects to the community. I don't know if that makes any sense. And I wonder, you know, what's that like for you

to sort of, you know, head into that kind of dynamic. That's a really good point, Scott. I believe in that. It's an understatement. I think being, I've been, to my career, I've been an owner in a junior team here with the 67s. I was a VP Oakhop's and you know, what you want, you want your fans to be in love with your player, with your team. And you want the other way around as well. You want your player to be in love with your city, with your fans. But you need to create that connection and you need to,

as a team, we need to be involved in the community. And that was, yes, that was something in that. the interview process with the ownership, with our CEO, Javier, with donor, with Bill, we talk about that, how important it is for our team, for our player to have that connection with our fans, because how you create a pride and feeling of belonging, how you do that, you know, it's by being emotionally involved in your community and being emotionally involved with your teammates and etc. There's many things,

but one of those is being involved in the community and taking pride in that involvement. And I believe in that. And we want in Arizona our fans to be to love our player and to be proud of their team. And the other way around is true. We want our player to be to love our fans and to love our city.

and all of it. It's already there. I've been lucky to talk with all the plurin, to talk about what do you think about Arizona and the city and the environment. They really love to play in Arizona so that we just have to keep going and keep building that pride and the feeling of belonging. And my last question before we let you go. And thanks so much for spending time with us on the podcast today. I just want to follow up and dot the eyes and cross the T's on the first question I asked you, but I've learned never to assume anything because it makes me look like an ass if I do that. But I take it that by taking the job and leading hot Canada, so you're not going to make time within the county job to do one of the international events, I guess, right?

So that's okay. I, you know, it's, that was before I, we went too far in the, the process with, with the oats. That's something I thought long and hard. And, you know, like I said, there's 32 of doors job in the world. There's, you cannot dip your toes. I don't want to, I'm all in with, with the oats. I want to make sure I do everything I can to be successful and I will put the time.

And I don't want my. focus to be divide or whatever. So it's an important stage in my life, my career, and I want to be 100% focus on it. Totally get it for sure. Andre, I have just one quick question. You mentioned talking to the players. And I wondered what your conversations were like with Captain Oliver Ekman-Larsen, a lot of discussion about, you know, what's going to happen with his future, which is beyond your pay grade, I assume. But I wondered if you had a chance to talk to Oliver and maybe what that conversation.

was like. Absolutely. I met with Oliver and we had a we had a great conversation. We're together for about three, four years, four hours and we went through, we talked about the team and the leadership and how one to run things and what was his opinion and what's the team and how he likes it and what do you think we can get the best of our team and in which way and stuff like that. We had a great conversation I think he's a really smart guy, so I'm excited to work with him. Like I told him, he said, last time I play against you, you were the best player on the ace, and I'm super excited to be on the right side of it now, so I'm excited to have Oliver with us. Good, good stuff.

Well, as Pierre said, Andre, we wish you the absolute best in Arizona, and thank you for taking the time. It's an incredibly busy time for you as you get ready for this new challenge, but thank you for coming to hang out with us, and best of luck to you, and, Arizona. Thanks a lot, guys. Looking forward to the next chat. That's all right.

Thank. Merci. Merci. That was really a terrific conversation, Pierre. And I don't know, Andre. And I don't know whether you've crossed paths with him and, you know, with your work. But I just, it just seems like a good fit for a team that, man, that they need some, they need to take some traction, get some traction. And it strikes me that Andre is a guy that maybe this is how it happens, right?

between he and Bill Armstrong, that this is where this team starts to arc in the right way for the first time in a long time. Yeah. And, you know, I wrote this last week after talking to Bill Armstrong and to Kevin Adams about their respective coaching hires. There was so many similarities. I think we talked about this last week. But again, the idea here is that this wasn't a coaching hire and Andre Turing you for the next two years. I mean, obviously it is. But my point is this is more about a long-arcing process.

of where you have someone that's going to grow with the organization and grow with this rebuild. And that's why I think it's a really smart. You know, you want to call it a gamble because a lot of people didn't see this higher coming. But my point is, I think what the calories are doing is if you hire a veteran coach and we're tearing down this roster for a couple of years, there might be some frustration. I think by bringing in a guy like Andre Turini, who's obviously his track record is sparkling with young players, you're playing the long game, and I think it's a good bet. Yeah, good point.

All right, my friend, we're going to take a break, and as promised, we will come back with, speaking of smart, another incredible hockey brain. We'll be chatting with two-time Stanley Cup champion GM, Dean Lombardi. All right, I've been so excited about this, Pierre. As promised, we are joined by Dean Lombardi, former GM of the L.A. Kings won two Stanley Cups, And in between went to a Western conference final. So a pretty darn good run there. Dean, thanks for joining us.

And I hope you're doing well. Are you, you're not out in the barn. You're not out on the range. Where are you at right now? Actually, I'm in California right now. We've got a lot of work to do here. We've got some big meetings this week. So I got a lot of cramming to do.

So you guys better make this worth my while here. Well. You're cutting into my time for Chuck. I know. Well, and I don't want you to get in trouble with the Chuck Fletcher of the Philadelphia Flyers, but this is so great. So right off the top, we're going to play you a clip. Our good pal, Mike Russo in Minnesota, was talking to Bill Guerr, GM of the Minnesota Wild, who Pierre and I were just talking about. So we're going to play this a little clip for you, which he breaks some news. I did not realize this, but here's a clip. Dean Lombardi is from Springfield Mass. Yeah. I've known Dino since I was a kid, and he was actually. going to be my agent before Bob Murray, who's my longtime agent, because Dean played for the same

junior coach that I played for in Springfield. So it was all set. He was going to be my agent. And then Jack Ferraro hired him as the assistant GM in Minnesota. Yeah. Yeah. So I had to go and find a new agent. Is he Bob Pulford's, uh, uh, uh, uh, someone, I think so. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know, it's fun. guy. Yeah, like brilliant guy. Great guy. All right. So, Dean, I had no idea of this.

You could have been on a completely other different career arc. And I assume it was because you didn't want to deal with Bill Guerin. And that was why you went off in another direction. Actually, I should have stuck with Billy because I probably would have made a lot more money considering the players I'm making today. But, yeah, he's a good old faithful bog boy. That's what we call the Springfield area of the bog. And, you know, he was a good one.

I think, you know, one of my claims to fame, though, was he broke my scoring records. So, you know, here's a guy that was one of the top power forward in the league for a long time. And I was telling Bobby Clark the other day we were talking about. I said, yep, well, Billy Garron broke my records. Everybody goes, whoa, you must have been pretty good player. Yeah, yeah. Problem is, I didn't tell, I don't tell people that it took me three years to put up those numbers, and he did it in one year. So that's one of those caveats you just don't throw out there.

You kind of leave it on the front end and everybody says, oh, this guy must have been pretty good. So I think he did it in like 60 games. It took me 200. So good. Now, Dean, just so our listeners, you know, our listeners certainly have probably not heard a lot from you, which is, of course, I think the way you like it. You've kept a low profile since joining the Flyers organization.

after leaving LA as GM. And maybe you can just describe for our listeners, Dean, what your work has been like for, you know, for Chuck Fletcher. Well, you know, the transition's been really good. One of the things I don't think people realize in the GMC, it's a 24-7 job. And there's so many things involved today that until you're in that seat, I don't think people realize.

And also people forget that you're not only building a hockey team, that when you look at an organizational chart today that has so many more people than when I started in the business, it can be a full-time job managing people. And what you notice sometimes is you actually, you almost don't have enough time to concentrate on the game. You know, Harry Sinden said a long time ago, the most important thing for GM is to know players. And it became harder and harder.

Like I said, I think I was, my three years in Philly prior to going to L.A. where arguably, you know, I look back on some of the best years in my career for two reasons. One, you know, before I went to first. Phil. I was in San Jose and I think I knew how to build the team. But after three years with Bobby Clark and being with the flyers, I knew how to build a winner. And the other thing that, you know, because I was just scouting, it was three years where I really knew the players around this league really well. I had a good handle on what was out here and what players could do and what players fit. So, you know, and as you go along in your career, there's so many, you know,

things involved and you're managing up, you're managing your owner, you're managing the 60, 70 people below you, the scouts, the trainers, the players, the coaches, but sometimes you get away from the game. And, you know, I made a decision, I think one of the, I've always loved the flyers, Mr. Schneider and Bobby Clark argued we saved my career. And there was an element of, I think, I owe them, and I love working. They've always been a family-type atmosphere. There's no politics, BS and the key was when I went there I said look, I'll be a senior advisor

and that's fine. I mean, when things on the big macro picture are up, I think, you know, your experience can certainly help the GM out. But it also allowed me to focus totally on harm. And that's what I really love

to do. You guys have known, I've been fascinated by stats and I've always been fascinated by the way to integrate the stats with what the eye test is. I think that's something that it's gotten two separate. You saw that in Moneyball where there's a, there seems to be aligned between those two,

and I don't think it needs to be there. And that's a lot of work. It's a lot of thought. I got some brilliant kids there that I love working with. They keep me young. But also, I love getting out in the ring still. I do mostly minor league scouting, and I love sitting up in the corner and watching those young

the next breed of young players. And Chuck Fletcher is a tremendous guy to work for. You know, we have a lot of work to do there, and I think this guy's going to get us out of it. So everything's been going great. Dean, I'm so curious because you mentioned the evolution of the game and what goes into it. And it seems it's not that long ago that when you were in L.A.

and you had that run from 12 to 14, it was just incredible. But I wonder when you think, about what we just witnessed with Tampa and what Julian Breezwill has done taking over for Steve Eiserman. Does it look different now than what you were doing? Like, has the landscape changed that much? It's not that meant much time in years, but it feels, at least to me, a little bit, that the game is completely different. But maybe you view it differently. I'm not sure.

Well, you know, you're absolutely right, Guy. you know what that all thing to us think as soon as you think you've got everything figured out then you're an idiot and there's no question in particularly a situation where we are

in our own team now kind of like in the middle and I've asked myself this and the thing I find fascinating is Vegas I think that's your landmark

for the question you're asking of the traditional way to build the win. So guys like me and Chuck and guys of Ariel, we grew up idolizing Bill Torrey, Harry Sunden, Cliff Fletcher. And for the most part, it was standard fair.

You had the bill to the draft. With Vegas is done, I find fascinating. Because arguably, they don't have one core player. that was drafted. That's unheard of. The only analogy I come up,

I don't know if you guys remember the old redskins with George Allen when he took the hogs and he brought in all veteran players. Right. And I went on to the Super Bowl. That's the only analogy I could come up with. Now, these guys in Vegas aren't that old. But when you look at the way they put that together,

that throws out the traditional model that we all grew up with. which is, you know, what Tampa is, right? All those top picks, headman, Stamcoast, great middle round picks. They had to go through that process of, you know, learning to play in a league, and then they get in their late 20s. They learn to win in the league. Vegas throws that all out.

And so you ask yourself, say, okay, are you a dinosaur thinking that in a 31 team league with a cap now, which totally changes the landscape, from the old Bill Tori days, that you've got to adapt. I mean, it's the old saying you don't adapt in a new environment. You die. So I'm trying to figure that out. But I find that fascinating that you bring in a patch ready, a stone, a flurry, a petro-angelo, a Carlson. Now, one of those players in your top core have been drafted.

So what is the right model? today, I think it's a hybrid, but as I, you know, started this off, if you think you have the answer to all this now, you're full. And these are the things that we have to look at. I think you have to micromanage now every little thing. Fit now is critical, you know, because you can't accumulate the talent that you used to under the old drafting mechanism. I mean, arguably, if you look back in history, you could make the case that they're not. The greatest hockey ever played was those conference finals between Colorado, Detroit, and Dallas. I mean, those teams run blue.

They had 10 Hall of Famers on every team, on each team. Right. You look at the matchups. You know, Fedoroff, Eisenman, Sackett, Forsberg, Ewan Dyke, Madonna, Zuboff on the back, Boar, Lydstrom, Pop Golden, Huffman, Huffman. So, 10 Hall of Famers on each team, good luck, trying to keep. that team together. That payroll would be $200 million today. Well, I might argue, Dean, the battle of Alberta in the 80s between the Gretzky's guys and Al McKinnis's guys, but I get your point, yeah. Those teams are pretty deep in Hall of Famers, too, in Calgary and Edmonton.

Yeah. Well, Edmonton, I just throw out. I mean, that, that, you know, that goes back to some of the things I'm also seeing that is always held true. And I think, again, Tampa is a great example of a traditional way to come up where all those top players learn to play in the league and then they get 26, 27, okay, it's kind of win. That's traditionally what's happened. Edmonton throws that out. I mean, I did the studies on this that's still a whole. The only team that ever won a championship with the number of guys they had 24 and under, I think it was 8, was Edmond. And, okay, good.

Let's use that model. Well, look at the name. Give me a break. But even the Vegas, the Vegas example is, I find it fascinating what you're talking about there. But don't you just, you got to be careful because, I mean,

they are a bit of a unicorn. I mean, they're an expansion team and got access and did an amazing job maneuvering with their assets and leverage. But you can't really duplicate what Vegas did because they started with zero players. Yes. Well, then I'd come back to kind of what I said.

Is it a hybrid, though? Right. That they've shown that, again, I think that would have been unheard of. I mean, God, I was part of an expansion team in San Jose. And look at the, we had it to us, but we were also going up against Dallas and Detroit and Colorado. Well, so I, I mean, the other thing I'll say that I think is going on there, And I, you know, George McPhee and I, when we were both GMs, we're pretty close. We stopped the same way.

George is a really honest guy. I think he's brilliant. Obviously, you know, he's not the GM anymore. But I remember talking to him when they went on a year run. And they, this is the big underestimated thing, too, that there's no cap on culture. And everybody talks COVID, right? Let's put up pictures in the room here. Let's put up some slogans.

You know, let's give a speech here and there. And that's how we're going to do culture. Well, no, that's not what culture is. You don't talk culture. You do culture. And I got the sense, in Georgia's an old BS guy, that they've got something going there culturally that, again, is shocking. Because I think most of us thought a bunch of guys,

they were let go by their team, going to Vegas, the party capital of the world, good luck establishing a military type structure within that locker. Well, something's going on.

And, you know, I think they've been, they've hit on their coaches, obviously have been outstanding. But it's not only coaches. They've got something going on there that you like anything, cultures like obscenity.

You can't define it, but you know it when you see it and you feel it. And I've got to believe they got something going there. because everybody thought, too, don't forget after that first year, oh, the party's over, that'll never last. They'll all get full of themselves and think it's easy. And they just keep rolling.

And then, you know, management says, oh, there's Petrangelo. Let's go out and grab him. I mean, so I think that's the, that's always the underestimated. And again, particularly in today's era, where a cap is designed to make everybody the same. And so the home runs, everybody's 500 in the big market's going at the end of the So that, but culture, you're not allowed to attack that part. The system does not allow you to go after that.

If you've got that in place, you know, you might lose a player in things, but culture will go beyond one or two players if you've got it in place. Right. Isn't that, I was just going to say, Dean, and you talk about, I assume that the connection between fit and culture and that's what teams are striving for. but there has to be you know how do you balance that against not becoming emotionally attached to but like Julian Breezo was going to you know he's there are some things he just won't be able to do because of the cap but you know that he would have had a connection with players that he just assumed

key to help maintain that culture but sometimes you sometimes you have to pivot away from that and I wonder I mean you've lived it and you you see it now in the NHL you know in the with the flat cap and maybe it's even worse now, but how do you balance, you know, what are you committing to fit and culture and how hard it is with it? In loyalty. Yeah. Well, to me, it's all the same, but sometimes you, maybe you can't be. I don't know.

It just strikes me that would be a very difficult job for a GM to wade through or difficult dynamic. No, bingo. You're right. I mean, again, there's that, and that still. You know, I, this is one of the things I look back in my career. And I remember John McFay telling me this when he's with the 49ers. When I was in San Jose, I got to know I was there when all those 49ers teams,

those great teams, oh my God. And you walked around there and you saw Montana and rice and lot and you so holy smoke. Again, you talk about that feeling of culture that you can't define. And these men had something really special. And I remember we won our first cup and we had the lockout. And I called John and I said, you know, okay, tell me what happens now after you win a championship. And if you remember, too, after the 49ers won their first championship, they almost had to blow that team up because they went right in a tank the next year, I believe.

And John told me something I never forget, however it did not he. He said, Dean, I'm going to tell you something. Once you win, everything changes. And you're going to have to figure out just what you're talking about, that balance between loyalty because you want your players to be loyal. And if you start shipping them out after they won, you're actually, you're a hypocrite. But there has to be some type of hyperact there where you can maintain the loyalty, but make the tough decisions. and he said, and he gave me some examples.

And he said, but just remember, everything changes. Your coaches change, your players change, and the man managed that and get him back on track. I can't explain to you what's like, but just be right. And boy, was he right. And this is one thing,

if I look back in my career, after we won the second cup, I didn't do a very good job. There's, you know, I look back and, you know, like you live, learned I learned from San Jose, like I said, you know, when you get fired, you want to blame everybody else and blah, blah, blah.

But, you know, regardless of whether you deserve to be fired, there's always things you could have learned and got better. And eventually that's the way I looked at San Jose and then, like I said, my three years with parking. I look back on that now, and I remember telling Chuck this, he says, you know, I can certainly help now. But I'll tell you what, I think I'm going to be. be your biggest ally once we win. Because I made, I did not do a good job after that second

cup managing that things you're talking about, balancing what a team tough decisions. I don't want to be a Bella. I didn't, I could never be a Belichick. I don't think I could go that far. You know, every points to the Patriots, you know, turn them and burn them. I don't think I could do that. But I had, I should have, looking back, there were, were things, the tough decisions that are mostly emotional, right? They're not usually based upon the quality of the player or, you know, whether the guy's got character or whatever. There are these intangible decisions that on its face publicly might not look like they're seeing, but if you're close to your team and understand what you have to do to keep that ball rolling,

um, again, I look back and I say, you know what, it's, I wish I had another shot at that part. because I did not do a good job in that area. But you're loyal to the guys that win, right? I mean, that's what's like... That's great. I totally agree. I mean, hey, I was still living in the era of Bill Torre. You know, I mean, again, when you grew up, you know, and you studied these guys

Sindh and Fori, and you saw how long those guys stuck together. But, again, that was a different era. And I agree with it. a big part of why we won is, you know, everybody talks family and everything else. But yeah, we created that. I mean, we had a tremendous culture there. We were clearly a team. I mean, yep, we had some darn good players.

But you look at a lot of those players who were a clutch cargoes, the Stoles, the Justin Williams, the Willie Mitchell's, they really knew how to bring a team together. And so, and you're, you're preaching to Jersey all the time, right? Jersey's number one. And you're right. I mean, that's my biggest problem.

I mean, you know, like one guy told him that's a problem, you know, with you Italian. You think everything's like the mafia where everybody's got to be loyal to everybody, and you can't always do that when you're in this business.

But so on the one hand, the idea of creating loyalty to that jersey was a great, no question, was instrumental. on our success. On the other hand, it kind of bit me a little and maybe I took it a little too far.

Well, and now Tampa's got some pretty tough decisions. It's going to be fascinating. Yeah. It's, Dean, I know you've got to go and you've got meetings and stuff, but I have a question. I don't think we're,

you know, we're speaking at a turn here, but it strikes me that you, you should have a book in you. And I wonder if that is, tell us, is that a possibility? Is there a Lomba?

party book because I would be the first to buy it. In fact, I'll put in an order right now if you do it. I'm hoping there's some freebies out there, if that's the case. Wow. Yeah, I knew you would say that. But I'm willing to pay for mine. But is that something?

Have you got that in you? Well, a signed copy will cost Pierre double. So, you know, I think we've talked about this a little make a long story short. I think you guys probably know me well enough. You know, I'm the guy who liked,

you know, I graduated with honors and things, not because I was brilliant, I'm actually a guy who likes to learn. And I'm fascinating by a lot of things. And one of the things I found fascinating was the way that team came together and then what happened after we had won the second cup. and some of the things we had to fight for.

I've always been an avid reader and was trained as a lawyer, but I used to always go to bookstores on the road, and they became fascinated about six years ago on my favorite bookstore in Vancouver of a book by Richard Doxon's called The Selfish Gene. And basically what's happened now in science, what they're coming up with the last 30 years is fascinating, that there's a biological basis for our behavior and that certainly culture can change the way we are biologically,

but we have to start out with a premise of how we are biologically constructed. In the works they've done in genetics and evolutionary psychology, I just found fascinating. And so I started reading it and everything else. And then, and this took a lot of work. But again, I think, you know, it's, yeah, if I got bored in GM's meetings, I used to start doing the physics tables just to keep my mind going. And it took a lot of work to try and understand all the terms of it. I don't think you could do without the Internet for me.

I mean, this is one classic case for the Internet as an unbelievable tool versus playing video games. But what I was finding was if you really take a lot of, look at yourself and the way we are, it made a lot of sense. But you got to be like we tell our players, look yourself in the mirror, be honest with yourself and everything will take care of itself. So one book led to another and I started sketching, I wanted to apply this to the locker room because I've seen so many books out there where GMs write books and they talk about their trades and everything, that's fine. But I wanted to do something different. And

I was started to put it together, and then lo and behold, I ended up meeting Mark Emerit, who's the head of the NCAA. I'm sure you probably heard of him. This guy's got his handsful right now. And his wife and my wife fried horses, and he ended up going out to dinner, and I really didn't want to. I thought Mark was just another bureaucrat, and I'm going to, ah, whatever. And then I find out we started talking, and he threw up, I think it was Hamilton, one of the, one of these G. geniuses that it figured out a reciprocal altruism. And I go, you, you kidding me?

You know these guys and Trivers and Wilson and Hamilton? He goes, yeah, I wrote my college, a doctorate on it. I said, you're kidding. So I says, let me see that. So he gave me this doctorate. He was 400 pages long. And what he did was he applied what I was, this biological behaviorism to a corporate setting. I said, boom, there it is.

That's the template I want. that I want to apply that to a locker room. And that's what I, you know, and I'm not working for the flyers, that's my, between that and moving cattle in Idaho, I think it's my biggest passion now outside of hockey. I find it fascinating.

It's a lot of work. But, you know, and that's part of our deal here that I agreed to come on this show, but you've got to be one of my, you guys got to be my, what do you call it, check my manuscripts and stuff. So that's the payoff.

But anyway, I was going to say if you needed a chapter in your book to dumb down the narrative, then dumb and dumber here, me and Scott can really help you out. Because it sounds to me like when I read your book, I'm going to need someone to explain some of it to me. But I can't wait. I've been working on this for a long time. But one thing I was admired about you and Scott and a few of you,

the way journalism has changed so much where I'm, I'm sorry. It's all about just headlines and bubblegum stuff. I mean, you and Scotty and a few of your other Confederates are still real journalists where you can read something that's well written, well reasoned, and you might not agree with it, but at least it's backed up. It's not creating this hype and everything else. And you read the headline in first paragraph. So I think you guys are becoming dinosaurs, though, that's your actual journalists. But so. When they put you out the pasture, you'll still have me. I'll hire you to proofread my stuff. I might need it. Don't, don't, don't put that carrot out without meaning it. That's it, exactly. And I'm pretty sure, I can't speak for Pierre.

I'm pretty sure it's not the first time we've been called dinosaurs. So I take it as a badge of honor. But, Dean, it's always a treat to catch up. And really so pleased for what your many projects and good luck with. the flyers and all that lies ahead. But really, thanks for taking the time and hanging out with us. I said to Pierre earlier in the podcast is that I already feel smarter and we haven't talked to Dean yet and now I do feel smarter.

So thank you for coming and hanging out with us. Well, I'll admit that, you know, because I don't do media anymore, it's not my job. I stay within my lane. But I will say this. I miss you guys a little. Not a lot. Just a little. Once in a while I'll think about you, but let's not get carried away here.

True enough. True enough. That's good stuff. That's a great compliment coming from me. I feel it. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. All right.

Thanks a lot. Thanks, Dino. Take care. Honestly, Pierre, we could have talked all day to Dean Lombardi. And what a great get by you. I'm glad you reached out to Dean and had him on. And just before we take our final break and then wrap things up for this two-man advantage show,

One of my favorite things, and it's your story, but I've co-opted it. Was it after the first cup win in 12, or was it 14? And you couldn't, he didn't, he had disappeared. Dean was, he was nowhere to be seen. So it was, it was, it was the first cup. And it was after they won the first cup in 2012. And, uh, and you and I had made a plan. We were both, of course, covering, uh, the NHL for ESPN.com at the time.

And you were going to do the overarching story. And I was going to do the Dean Lombardi story, the architect. Because it was a, you know, it was a very detailed. a rebuild that lasted several years that it culminated in that first cup for the organization. But when we were on the ice and all the players are celebrating and the media is allowed on the ice starting to do players, there was no DeLombardi. He had, I don't think he'll mind me sharing this. He had gone into a side room at the Staples Center to sneak a smoke as he was wont

to do. And I think probably a Bud Light or Miller Light. But he was also when one of the Kings PR people went to find him, he was surprised I wouldn't wanted to talk to. And that's genuine. That's how he is. You know, to him, that moment was for the players. And the players are supposed to do interviews and get all the credit. He didn't want any of it. And I will tell you, another memory of when he finally came out, we dragged them out to come and do a scrum with a bunch of us in the media. Before he took a question, he went out of his way to thank all his predecessors who, you know, who had, you know, who had, you know, drafted.

Copatar, you know, referring to Dave Taylor. He wanted to make sure that that he got that out of the way before he took questions, which again tells you about, you know, how classy D. Lombardi is. Yeah, absolutely. All right, my friend, any parting thoughts? My sense is between now and next week, we're going to tape next Thursday again before the start of the draft, which, of course, runs 23rd, 24th on Friday and Saturday, the expansion. what do you think the next week's going to be like?

Well, it'll be nutty and will be moves that we didn't see coming. You know, I think that there will be more moves post-expansion draft than pre-expansion draft. I think some teams are not wanting to add to their protection list issues right now, which is affecting some of the trade talks, but we're still going to get trades before then. So, yeah, it's just going to be a blurry two weeks, and then I disappear. All right. All right. What else we got going on? Jeremy Rutherford from the Athletic St. Louis, joins Ian Mendez and Haley Salvia to discuss the latest trade rumors revolving around Vladimir Teresenko.

We've got Scott Wheeler, our national reporter covering the NHL draft. Just a nice job that Scott does. And joins Craig Custin's and Sean Gentilly this week on the Athletic Hockey Show Tuesday. And how about this? Check out our comments section for each podcast episode. at The Athletic app and rate and subscribe to the Athletic Hockey Show on Apple if you aren't already a subscriber

go to theathletic.com slash hockey show and receive a subscription for $3.99 a month. Pierre, excellent work by you and can't wait until we catch up next week and see where we're at. Good job.

Right on, right on.