The Athletic Hockey Show - Should Connor Hellebuyck be the Hart Trophy favorite?

Episode Date: March 13, 2025

Mark Lazerus, Rob Rossi and Peter Baugh take a look at the front runners for the Hart, Vezina, Norris and Calder trophies, and if goalie Connor Hellebuyck is the odds on favorite to win the MVP. The guys discuss the Wild Card races, with Ottawa looking to solidify their spot in the East, and four teams vying for that final spot, and in the West with the Canucks, Blues and Utah trying everything to take over Calgary for the final slot. Host: Mark LazerusWith: Rob Rossi and Peter BaughExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Jeff Domet Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Athletic Hockey Show presented by E-Trade from Morgan Stanley. I'm Mark Lazarus in lovely, rainy, windy San Jose. Today I'm joined by Rob Rossi in Pittsburgh, Peter Ball in New York. We're filling in for Haley Salvean and Sean Gentilly. And since we have Rob here, I think we're going to talk exclusively about international hockey in Russia.

I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I'm kidding. Don't yell at us. Don't leave. Don't leave. Don't leave. don't leave us a nasty comment. We're not going to talk about those things. Robin Peter, how are you guys?

I'm well. I'm actually in St. Paul right now. I'm on the road, too. You're in a nice little hotel there. You've got like a kitchen and everything. Is that a residence? It's got to be a residence in. It's a residence in.

I can identify and marry it from just one quick shot. We have had a rarest of occasions four consecutive sunny days in Pittsburgh. That cuts into our allotment of about 33 for the year. So, and we are getting ready for the nation's second largest St. Patrick's Day parade behind Chicago. We don't have to dye our river's green because they already look that way from all the pollution from the steel moves. The green river in Chicago, it's really, it's kind of amazing when you see it. But the problem is it lasts for like a month.

So you're sitting there and it's like early April and it's still kind of green. So it doesn't really make a lot of sense. But it's really when you see it in person, it's like, holy cow, that's really, really green. When I covered baseball, I always marveled that the river was green, but the ivy hadn't sprung yet at Wrigley Field. It was kind of this really weird duality. It is. And there's no colder place on earth than Wrigley Field in early April. Something about the way the wind comes off the lake.

It's colder than the South Pole. I swear to God, you've never been colder in your life than a Wrigley game in April. Now, that's true. The only time I've ever worn Keem Apparel for anything that I've ever covered was a second series of the year, game at Wrigley Field when I covered the Pirates and I was so cold. I mean, it was like 20s. Well, that press box is so old. It has no insulation either. I beg the Pirates trainer. Me and another writer begged the Pirates. They gave us like those old starter jackets that they used to have and we were just like balked up. I was like, I don't even care how this looks. I need to be

warm. All right. Well, let's talk a little bit of the hockey. Something people are tuning in to listen to us Wax Poetic about Wrigley Field. We're only about a month out from the end of the regular believe it or not. So we're going to take one last in-season look at the awards races. And there are some doozies out there. We're also going to talk about Alex Ovechkin, Sidney Crosby. They're both chasing down a pair of Wayne Gretzky's seemingly unbreakable records. Nathan McKinnon just reached 1,000 points.

We're going to talk about whatever the hell it is, the Pittsburgh Penguins are these days. But before we get into the awards, let's do a very quick reset on the wild card races in both conferences, which are getting quite tense. I mean, we've been talking only about the East for so long now. but the West is getting really good all of a sudden. The Canucks rallied to beat the flames in a shootout last night with Elias Pedersen recording three points and man can Vancouver use him snapping out of whatever funky's been in all season. And Utah, the Utah hockey club, they held off Anaheim three to two.

So the flames and Canucks are tied for the last wildcard spot. Calgary's got a game in hand. St. Louis, your beloved St. Louisians, Peter, still hanged in Patrick's Day. They are hanging around. They are hanging around like Mike McDermott, just two points. back, as is Utah. So who do you like coming out of that? I mean, assuming that it's just that second wild card spot that's actually available, who are you guys leaning right now? I think I'm leaning Calgary, just because I trust Dustin Wolf, who I think we're going to talk

about a little bit more coming up in some of our awards conversations. And I think they've got a pretty complete, it's not a great roster by any means. Like, it's not a roster that I think will do damage in the playoffs, but I think it has a lot of guys who can, their decor has enough middle of the pack to decent defensemen that I think they'll be okay. And I think guys like Cadre, Huberto, some of the young guys, the guys they got from Philly,

I think that'll be enough to get them into the last spot. But it'll be really close and it's not. I certainly don't feel confident about that pick. I'd love it to be Utah. I think that would be a fantastic story for the league. And just to see what the playoffs would be like in that building. I think I lean towards Vancouver because I think they have the most upside, especially if Pedersen is coming out of the, I don't know,

the abyss that he's been in for the year. I still think that's a pretty good roster. And if the goaltending is healthy, I think they have some good options. But, you know, It's a funny thing about the wildcard race to me is always, we always focus on the points. And I always tend to look at how many teams you have to jump because I think that's where it becomes tricky in the final month because of the three point games. But I think if I had to bet, I'd prefer not to. But if I had to bet, it would be the Vancouver Canucks.

Yeah, I think I lean Vancouver just from a sheer talent standpoint, but their goaltending really makes me nervous. They had to start Kevin Lanken in on back-to-back nights. There's just a lot riding on every game, it feels like. but Pedersen getting hot right now would not only would it probably get them into the playoffs, man, would it ease some tension in that city? And that's like, that's like the world's most tense hockey city, right? Like Vancouver is always on edge, always ready to just freak the hell out of something. So I think a resurgence by Pedersen could be really big down there.

In the East, boy, the East is just crazy right now. Detroit finally won a game. They won a game last night. They snapped a six game losing streak. And somehow they're still right there. They are tied with the Rangers and the Bruins, one point behind. the Canadians and two points behind the blue jackets. We're in that second wild card spot.

I know a lot of us are hoping for new blood in the east. I'd love to see, you know, Ottawa and Columbus get those spots, but I don't know. I've got the sneaking bad suspicion that we're just going to get stuck with the Rangers and Bruins again. Peter, tell us what's going to happen. Well, I think Ottawa's in for sure. I'm very confident that they're in. I think they've got, if you listen to what Rob was saying earlier, the number of teams, other teams have to hop.

They're number one right now and all those teams, they've built a little bit of a cushion, they have one of the easier schedules the rest of the way. And frankly, I just think their roster is better than all these other teams. I look at the players they have. And I think the only reason that we're not confident in Ottawa making the playoffs is because they're the Ottawa senators. I think if they were like, I think if this was the, say the exact same roster, but it was like the Boston Bruins, we'd be like almost locking them in. I think they're in a really good position. I could look like a fool for saying that, but I'm pretty bull.

on them at least making the playoffs. And I think they're a pretty solid team that maybe could surprise some people depending on the matchup. They won four in a row here. So they're starting to pull away. I mean, they're only three points up. But that's like you said,

that's a lot to make up in a short amount of time. So they're starting to pull away of it. And I mean, I think the Bruins, you look at like the pieces they gave up at the deadline. It's hard for me to envision them hanging on. The Rangers haven't won in four games. And they've just had a pretty mediocre at best season all year.

and at a certain point you are who you are. And I don't think they're still right there though. They could still get in. I'm not saying they're going to win the cup, but they could. No, of course they could. I just, I look at like the team I've been watching and I'm not impressed. Like they're, they give up so much defensively. If you look at their bottom six right now, it's a lot of young guys mixed with not as many great veterans.

Like it's, it's just at their decor is, is kind of a mess. Adam Fox is out, though he skated last practice, so we'll see if he might be returning imminently. But it's just, it's so reliant on the goaltending that that might be enough. But, I mean, they're behind Montreal. They're behind Columbus. I think we also have to mention that Jersey is, they've got a bit of a cushion, but they've kind of let the field creep back up on them lately and are not in a completely safe spot, especially with Jack Hughes out.

But I think I would, I'm going to stand pat and say that it's Ottawa and Columbus because I look at like, the Rangers played Columbus last week and they play them again this week. And I just look at it as like I think Columbus, other than goaltending, I think their roster is better. I think they have better players. And that's kind of as simple as it is. And I think that's probably going to be how it plays out. It is amazing to me how every time. I want to think I'm wrong about other than about five teams, the East being a bucket of suck,

the East proves to be a bucket of suck. And, you know, I think Ottawa and Columbus are the teams I'd feel more comfortable betting in because they don't have the weight of some of the other teams. They don't have sort of the Marchand trade that Boston's carrying with them. How will that play itself out over a longer period of time? The Rangers, when I watch them play against a pretty putrid penguins team, the Rangers seem to, like, hate each other at some points in games. I mean, they just don't seem to be a cohesive unit.

I think Montreal would be a great story. I just don't know if they have enough. I'm with Peter. I trust Ottawa and Columbus. And I'll say this, one of those teams is going to win their opening round series. I don't know which one yet. I want to see how they finish. Jersey is the team.

I think Pete makes a great point. Boy, it'd be a lot for them to drop, but I wouldn't be shocked if this becomes Columbus finishing third in the Atlanta, whatever the division is called. I forget.

Metro. Metro. Yeah. And New Jersey being in that mix because without Jack Hughes, I just, I don't think they have enough to hold off if, say, the Blue Jacket surge.

and can get into that third spot. Sounds like you're talking about my fantasy team in the athletic league because I built my entire team around Jack Hughes and Dougie Hamilton and now I'm just completely dead in the water. That's not what you. That's what really matters. That's what our listeners really care about. Yeah.

All right. Well, let's talk about some awards now because we are incredibly, I don't know why this season seems like it's moved a lot faster than previous ones. We're a month out from the end of the regular season here. So it's one last chance to look at some of these awards races. And there's some really good here. did races here this year. Let's start with the Hart Trophy, MVP. You've got Nathan McKinnon. You've got Leon Drysid. You got Zach Werenski. I want someone to tell me why it shouldn't be Connor Helibuck.

Because in my mind, I'm always a goalies should deserve more heart-love kind of guy. I voted for Devin Dubnick years ago. I've had Hellebuck and I've had Chesturkin at the top of my ballot. By evolving hockey's measure, he has 43.23 goals saved above expected. The next best is Logan Thompson at 28.3. It's the fourth highest in the last 10 years, and he's still going to get like 10 more starts. So we could break the modern record for this. Tell me why the most important guy in the most important position on the best team in the league shouldn't win the MVP. I'm not going to tell you why he shouldn't. I'm also a little bit swayed. I got to give a shout out to my guy, Roger. Roger was a waiter at a restaurant called 529 Wellington in Winnipeg.

and he started talking hockey with me when I was there two nights ago, three nights ago, whatever. And he was like, what about hell. He was like, Helbeck's going to win the Vesna, right? And I was like, of course. And he was like, what about for heart? And I hadn't given a ton of thought to it. And then I was like, Roger, you're on to something. And I went home and I looked at evolving hockey.

The goal saved above expected. I paid attention to him the next night when it was a two one game. And it just, I know this is not. necessarily how we should choose Hart Trophy voting, but it felt like so much bigger than a two one lead that Winnipeg was holding on to because Halebuck was in net. It just felt like

you weren't going to beat him. And sure enough, the Rangers did not beat him. And I think right now, when the next day, when we filled out our athletic awards predictions or whatever, I put Halebock down, I can be swayed for sure.

I think the fact that I think the one maybe drawback from him is that Winnipeg is clearly a very good defensive team and that Eric Comrie, the backup, has a 914 save percentage. Obviously, he's playing against weaker competition than Hellebuck, but clearly this is a team that plays good defensively structured hockey in front of their goaltender. But I think right now, if I were to fill out my ballot, it would be Hellebuck. Yeah, boy, I'd love to disagree with both of you, but look, I've, I would have Hella Buck. I voted, We did this athletic thing, our award 17,000.6 or whatever it is, it's coming out at some point.

And I had him atop my list. You know, we have colleagues that vote, you know, I know, Pierre LeBron and I have talked about this. He just won't vote for a goalie for Hart. I think that's a ridiculous notion why you should eliminate it. I don't understand why it's always been a skaters award. I've never subscribed to the idea that the leading scorer needs to automatically be in the heart conversation because we have an award for the leading score. score. I guess I'd like to remind the listeners as somebody who's done this for, you know,

as like you, what, 20 years or whatever. These awards are narrative as much as anything. And I think the reality is we all got behind. It was McKinnon's time last year. And we both know that we tend to make it a higher level, a higher bar to clear for a guy to go back to back with the heart because there just aren't that many guys other than Gretzky that have done it. But you didn't do it. I think Ovechkin did it, but there aren't many. I just look at the field and, you know, I could make a case for Drysaito. I can make a really good case for McKinnon. I think where Colorado finishes will have a lot to say about this.

But to me, if you take Hellebuck off the Winnipeg Jets, they aren't the best team in the NHL. They are a good team. They are a playoff team. team, but they aren't the team that a lot of us would go, that should be the favorite to win the Stanley Cup. And just because he plays a position that has its own award doesn't mean he isn't the most valuable player to his team. So to me, right now, with a month out, it's his. I would also say, I agree that it is narrative-based, but I don't think it's solely narrative-based. Like, McKinnon, it was his time last year, but I also think he was more than deserving, like,

his numbers were the best in the league. But I think- Absolutely. But narrative plays into it, I think, more than people realize. And I think the tie, you kind of, when you look at, and I mean, I'll admit, like, if it's kind of coming down to like, if it's dry sidel McKinnon-Hellibuck and they're all around the same in my eyes, it's definitely going to sneak into my subconscious that two of those guys have won before and one hasn't. And so I think there is, I certainly don't use it as like a main thing. but like as a tiebreaker, I think it plays in a little bit of like, you do have to kind of raise your standard to get a second if there are others who are kind of right on your, on your realm. And I think dry side, we've got to point out, like he's on pace to have what, like 57 goals and 120 points or something.

Like he's having a ridiculous season. I don't know if those are the exact numbers, but he's, I think he's closing in on 50 goals. He's closing in on 100 points. and I wouldn't I wouldn't rule a late charge from him out, especially if Edmonton can write the ship a little bit going into the playoffs. So I do have access to our results of our staff poll. I don't know if I'll get in trouble for sharing this early, but here's what we had.

We had 37.9% of us pick McKinnon, 31% dry-sidal. Hellebuck was next at 20.7. So I think that three of us are still probably in the minority here, because I think there are a lot of people that are like baseball writers to say, well, a pitcher can't be the MVP because he's got his own award already with the Sigh-Young. I don't like that argument at all. It's the most valuable player, not the most valuable skater. But I wonder, I think if Helibux might, it is so hard to distinguish between the goals of Drysidal, the points of McKinnon, and for those of us who

are into the Werenski idea, he's really the driving force behind that team, I wonder if the skaters split the vote a little bit, and that's how Helibuck sneaks in with like a plurality of the votes. I think that's something that's, that might be the best way for Helibuck to get this award. Can I throw a wildcard out? there? Please. In 1989, Wayne Gretzky had a fabulous season, but he also finished 30-some points behind Mary Lemieux, the first year, Lemieux took the team to the playoffs in Pittsburgh.

Lemieux had 199 points. And the argument was Gretzky going to the Kings was such an overwhelming success for the NHL that a lot of voters voted for him, at least the voters I've talked to. Is there any possibility that if this race tightly... and we can't find a winner, the team that might end up with the best or the second best record and has the guy that caught Gretzky's goal record get some votes. No, I can't see. You don't think?

You don't think? You don't think he'll get some votes, though, because I'll wonder. He'll be on some ballots, but he's not going to do any first place votes. If he ends up getting some on, say, 10 to 20 ballots, more votes in the, maybe third, fourth, or fifth than we think, that could shake a close race. that could shape that could reshape a close race he'll get some down ballot votes but there's there's not going to be a single writer who gives him a first place vote no no no but I think in a close race the thing about the heart that people don't realize is we vote for five right so it depends

sometimes on how those votes fall and it's like an Oscar ballot it's almost like yes so I do wonder how that I don't think a vetch who has a chance to win it nor do I think he should but I wonder if there will be people who haven't been paying attention who put him maybe like third as like a, you know what, this was a cool moment. They're a great team. They don't have a representative. And then what does that do for say, for the skaters? Might that tip at the, might that tip at the hellabuck? That's interesting idea. I think there's also, you mentioned Werenski. I mean, McCar could become the first defenseman to score 30 goals in almost 20 years, cues if he drags the Canucks into the playoffs. Like, I think there could be some narrative push for, for defensemen at

some point coming up soon. Let's get into the Norris here because the Norris, you know, Rob, you talked about a narrative award. The Norris is the real narrative award. Forever it's been, it's this guy's turn, right? We always talk, it always seems to wind up that way. But that's not going to be the case this year, unless it's Worensky, because Quinn Hughes has got one.

Kail McCar's got one. This was Quinn Hughes's race to lose. And I think he's lost. I think he's just missed too much time. It's going to be like there was a couple years ago where it was a similar thing where I think McCarr missed a bunch of games and he didn't get it. So it's, McCarr might get up, like Peter said, he can get 30 goals. He might have 100 points.

I'm still leaning Zach Werensky. It's not just about points. And McCar's numbers are great. Their PPG is nearly identical. But Werensky leads all NHL players in Ice Time, to be fair, Macar is second. Werensky has a slightly better goal differential at five on five. He has a lot more defensive zone starts. Macar is an absolute, you know, offensive zone start machine.

And to me, I don't know, if it's a toss up and this feels like a toss-up, The tie goes to the guy doing it on the team nobody saw coming. Zach Werenczki is dragging the Columbus Blue Jackets, one of the most unlikely stories we've ever seen into the playoffs. And, you know, McCar is on a super team. So I'm kind of leaning Werencki here. I'm here your points. I don't think, I think the avalanche looked like a super team now post-decline.

I watched a lot of them earlier in the year just because I covered them. They were not a super team. They were a deeply flawed team with limited depth. that relies on Cal McCar a whole lot. He plays in all situations. He's not a, I think, yes, his offensive zone starts are high. And that's because it's simply smart to start Cal McCar in the offensive zone because he ended up getting a magician with the puck. But I, he plays on the penalty kill.

He is very, I think he's labeled as this offensive defenseman when I think he's much more than that. Oh, he's not, I'm not trying to slag Cal McCar here. I know, I know. He's one of the best players in the world. I'm not necessarily talking to you specifically. I'm saying I think the narrative around him is he's this offensive guru when I think he is an extremely well-rounded defenseman and player. And right now I would probably lean him over Werenski. And I think Werenski, the thing is, is, I mean, the ice time is probably his biggest argument. The fact that he doesn't have a McKinnon that he plays with is a huge, a huge factor. But I think it would, I'd be remiss to like, I mean, Quinn Hughes could still, if Vancouver finishes the year strong makes the playoffs, Quinn Hughes, all his like pace numbers for his advanced stats are unbelievable. I love Greenpeace. I think he's just missed too much time.

I mean, but at the, I think right now it feels that way. But at the end of the year, if he's played 70 games out of 82, I don't know if missing 12 games is a deal breaker for me. I'd currently go probably McCar Werensky Hughes, but I think that if Hughes plays the rest of their games and they make the playoffs, I think it could get really interesting. Same if Columbus makes the playoffs. Like I think team success,

for better or worse, will factor into this award. That's how you start breaking ties, right? It's like, how valuable have you been to your team? Yeah. And I get frustrated with the how valuable argument to an extent because I think you can be valuable in turning a good team into a great team. It doesn't have to be, for whatever reason, we put more value on taking a mediocre team

to a bubble playoff team. Well, that's the Taylor Hall MVP argument from. Of course. But I, and I guess what I'm saying is I reject that argument. And for me personally, like, I look at like, you can be valuable in turning a really good team into a great team or a good team into a really good team. I don't think the award is who is most valuable on a team that is. No, it's the best all around defense.

But you have to break ties somehow, right? Rob, who do you got? I had McCar as a coin flip over Werensky. I think if everything is equal today to where it was when I voted, if it's equal to that a month from now, I'd probably go with Werenski. I just, as wonderful as McCar is, you know, I just feel like, I agree, the abs aren't a super team. I saw them struggle with the penguins. And my rule is if you struggle with a penguins, you're not that good.

But I, and I think McCar and Hughes are the two best defensemen in the league. And I think if I were picking a team, I might pick, honestly, one of them over any skater to start my team. But the year Rewinsky is having, given the youth of the players he has around him at pivotal positions, he doesn't have a McKinnon to play with. He doesn't have some of the offensive talent Hughes has had. He does a lot for that team. And again, it's not the biggest factor, but it's a factor. And tell me a better story than seeing a Columbus Blue Jacket, get his team into the playoffs and win a major award. No question. There isn't.

Yeah, I wouldn't be opposed to Werenski winning. I don't want to sound that. And I think his, I watched him play the other night and he was the best player of ice. I think Werensky's performance at Four Nations too kind of raises profile a little bit too. Like he just, he's becoming like as we talk about the narrative, as this year's gone on, you're hearing Werenski's name a lot more. It's hard to make an impact in Columbus nationally, but I think you're starting to see that, which just goes to under. And I feel McCar, too.

I think McCar not being available for the game that the Canadians lost to the Americans and then being available for the game that the Canadians needed to win the next two games and playing so well on them. Look, I mean, Four Nations shouldn't have anything to do with the NHL awards. But again, we're human. We saw what we saw. I do think we almost do take Cail McCar for granted. He's the best defenseman I've ever seen, I think, you know, in the modern era.

Like I watched Paul Coffey when I was a little kid, but I wasn't like really savvy. enough to know what it was I was watching. I've never seen someone who can dominate a game from the back end the way that Cal McCarr can. I don't mean to disrespect Calumacar, but just this season in particular, I'd be leaning Werenski. Are Vesna, it's obviously Hellebuck. There's no reason to even discuss this. The Calder, though, is similar to the heart. You've got Macklin-Colabrini, Elaine Hudson, and you've got Mitchcoff, Matt Bay, Mitchcoff, but I wonder if those three are going to split the vote a little bit and allow Dustin Wolf, who should win this award to actually win this award. Is this the year of the goal?

goalie guys. I mean, I would pick Wolf right now. I wouldn't say if Lane Hudson or Macklin Celebrini won, I wouldn't be, to me, that's not egregious, especially like, I mean, Lane Hudson's been the top offensive defenseman on a team that is one point out of a playoff spot right now. So it's, it's not like he's doing this on a bad team. He's helped elevate Montreal from a bad team to a team that's in the mix. The sharks are really bad, but Celebrini is one of the most impressive rookies I've seen in years. I think he's he's been unreal. But for me, Dustin Wolf, especially if they make the playoffs, is like, I mean, talk about an impact you're having as a rookie. Like this team is pretty similar to what it was last year. And he's come in and

been just unbelievable. And I think deserves so much praise and would have my vote if the season ended today. I think it should be Wolf. But I, my perception on this is, we, We tend to end up as a voting block going with a guy we think is going to have the career that we want to look back on and say, oh, he was also the Calder trophy winner. That was a soccer. Yeah. So, look, I think this is one of those, like, some, there are years where I, I look at the Calder and I'm like, oh, how am I getting five out of this? Like, I'm stretching. And I'm always one of those guys that looks a lot at defensemen who play heavy minutes as a rookies.

and who do sort of play that can provide some offense, even if they're on a bad team, because I think that's a harder position to play. I think it should be Wolf, but if Celebrini wins it, he's having the type of impact that a, I won't say it was a, it was a Connor McDavid,

Sidney Crosby, Alex Ovechkin, but it was right there with an Afghani Malkin and a Patrick Kane in terms of like when you saw them, excuse me, when you saw them as rookies, you went, they're already top 10 players. Like, they're already one of the best players at their position. So if it's Celebrini, I have no issue with that. But I, boy, it'd be nice to see a goalie win this award. Yeah. And I think that's, Lane Hudson. I think, I think Lane Hudson is

getting slept on a little bit here too. Yeah. I think that's a great point, Rob, though, if we look back at Mark and I have disagreed about this in the past and it probably isn't worth relitigating. But I think that's what happened last year. I voted for Brock Faber. I thought he was awesome last year and deserved the Calder, but I think that Baderd was the bigger name was deserving, for sure. Like, I don't, I'm not upset that Baderd won by any means, but I think some of it is we want to be able to look back at this award and say this was, we did, we did write by history with this award when I think that's not what the award is.

It's not who's going to have the best career. It's who had the best season. Not to be a huge homer, but to push back on narrative a little bit. Maclin Celebrini's stats this year are almost identical to Connor Bred's last year, including the defensive ones and the plus minus. I mean, he's got a better expected goals. But like all we talked about last year was freaking plus minus for some reason. And McClint Celebrina is like minus 30 right now.

And he's the greatest defensive player that's ever lived according to everyone I keep hearing about. I'm actually looking forward tonight. I'm in San Jose. I'm looking forward to seeing Celebrity in person because he was injured both times. The Sharks were in Chicago. He's a fabulous player. I'm not, I'm not disrespecting him. but like the badard, the pushback on Bedard last year was almost comical where people were trying to not give it to him.

Yeah, I feel like the pushback on Bedard in general was just because he suffered from being hyped as a generational guy. And we've, and I don't, I always struggle with that because people like think you don't like the player. And my thing is like, Connor Bedard's a fantastic hockey player. He's going to be an elite hockey player. When we miss, I don't say, I don't want to even want to say we mislabel him. When every number one pick is labeled as generational, the bird of that expectation. Alexi LaFrenier was labeled generation.

Yes, and that's what I mean. There aren't that many generational guys. I wouldn't say Celebrini or Bedard R. That doesn't mean they're not fantastic hockey players. And if history ends up with those going back to back, that's probably going to be what, the best back to back we've had since, what, Ovechkin-Malkin in 0-6-07?

All right, we're going to get a little bit more into Baderd after the break here. We've got to let Peter go. He's got to get to a morning skate. We're going to talk Sidney Crosby, Alex Ovechkin. You might have heard of those guys, Nathan McKinnon, and a bunch more to come on the athletic hockey show. All right, we're back. It's Mark Lazarus.

It's Rob, you're here, so we're required to talk about Sydney Crosby. It's a new contract, I believe. You had a story in the athletic yesterday where you talked to Sidney Crosby about his best friend of me, Alex Ovechkin, who's eight goals away from time. weighing Griskey's gold record, nine from breaking it, but Crosby's also chasing a Grisky record. One that's, you know, not like, it's not like the kind of record that you put on like a Hall of Fame plaque, but it's kind of a fascinating one all the same. Tell us about it. Yeah, so the genesis of this last was I'm working on a story about Ovechkin, sort of a deep dive into his Alexness with Dan Robson.

And, you know, we kind of realized, well, we haven't talked to Sid about Alex going for this record. So, you know, I went up to Sid and Sid was talking and I just was like, you know, I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you. You're chasing your own record to and he kind of gave me that look. It was like, they're not the same. Let's not do this. You know, but I, you know, I think what's interesting to me is the way he broke it down about. Tell us the record first before you get into the details. Yeah, yeah, right.

So Sidney Crosby is averaging a point per game. If he, he's missed two games this year, if he hits 80 points, which he's 10 points away, 15 games left, he will be the first player to record a point per game in 20 consecutive NHL seasons. Right now, him and Wayne Gretzky are tied with a record at 19 consecutive seasons. Now, I'll be honest. It's an insane stat. Like, that is. Yes, it is.

And it's not a stat I had ever even thought about until about two years ago. So it's one of those ones that we call it a record, but it's more like a statistical anomaly. But it's one of those in the things like, Gretzky did so many things that it's tough to keep track of it. What was interesting to me about the conversation with Sid were one thing that, one sort of thread that he pulled out and then one observation that I had while talking to him, and then he kind of agreed with, which is the first part is,

well, he talked about it's like, you know, he said, I haven't talked to Alex about this, but I think he's probably going through the same thing. You just try to focus on what you do well and do that well consistently and trust that for him, he scored a lot of goals. The goals will come. And for me, I've done this thing with the points.

The points will come. And it's so interesting, as I'm sure you've heard this with some of the great players you've covered, you know, Kane, they focus so much on the process, right, that the statistics are actually, they almost sound secondary, but then you realize the great players put up the numbers they do because they can hone in on the process that allows them to put that up. They don't go into that sort of panic mode when the things aren't going well because let's face it, even Sidney Crosby and Alex Ovechkin are going to have 10 to 15 games a year where it's like nothing goes right for them. So, you know, to hear Sidney talk about him being this sort of machine

like point producer, but having the same process as Alex, this machine goal scorer, I think, it just speaks to their level of focus that we don't think of generally as a skill. But to me, that level of focus is what separates the guys with great physical talents from everybody else who's a great physical talent, but can't be consistent like this. The observation I had was, how cool is this that in their 20th season, you know, when most players don't make it that long, let's be honest. Alex is going to break most likely that what I think is the most envied record in the history of the league. Because I think, as Sid said, the point record from Gretzky is so like in another universe, nobody even thinks about it.

But the goal record was one that you kind of were like, I doubt it, but maybe someday if everything goes right. Alex is going for that. And what do we think of with Alex Ovechkin, greatest goal scorer ever, you know? And what do we think of with Sidney Crosby, this consistent player? I won't say he's the greatest point producer ever. He's not, but I don't know that there's ever been a player as consistently at a high level as Sidney Crosby. And for them to both be going, you know, to have Gretzky and their crosshairs in ways that I think totally, you know, are symbolic of what they have been throughout their careers. That's pretty neat.

And it goes back to my argument. Yeah, I have to talk about Sid every time I'm on. I do think it's easy to overlook these guys. because they've been doing it for so long. And we tend to focus so much on the big things that they're doing that we don't focus on, they're still doing it at really high levels. Yeah, I feel like this is what guys talk about when they're like,

when a rookie comes in the league and they're on a team with a guy like a Crosby or a, or a Novetskin or a cane or a Taze with a like, they're teaching me how to be a pro just by watching them because there's a level of professionalism required to be that consistent year and year out, to be able to shoulder that burden and never be too weight. down by it because these guys are still human. I always come back to one of the,

one of the weirdest interactions I ever had was with Marian Hosa a long time ago, obviously, and he hadn't scored a goal in like seven or eight games, and he was getting frustrated, and he's already in his mid-30s by this point. I ask him, I'm like, it seems like, you know, he's just going on and on about, he's like, he doesn't, he's like, I have no

confidence right now. And I literally, it's blurted out of my mouth. I was so embarrassed that I said it. I go, how do you not have any confidence? You're Marion effing hosa. I didn't, you know, censor myself. He said right to him. And he just kind of laughed and he goes, we're all human. We all lose confidence from time to time.

So the fact that Crosby and Ovechkin have done this for so long is such a testament to their professionalism and also this kind of unerring belief in themselves that no matter how things are going, they're going to be fine. Yeah. And I'll be honest. I've had a unique perspective of that here in Pittsburgh because, you know, Afghani Malkin is on many levels a more gifted player than Sidney Crosby. And, you know, despite what the NHL's 100 list, he's, you know, He's one of the greatest players of all time. But he's a guy that that has confidence issues.

And you would be like, and I've said that to him in private settings, like, how do you lose confidence? I've seen you do things that other people physically can't do. Crosby, if he ever lacks confidence, and if a vet can ever lacks confidence, I've never seen it. Maybe the trick to doing that is projecting. But I think that you're going to your mind. But I think there is this notion that. that I've done this before. If I keep doing the things I know that work for me and just focus on that,

the other stuff will come. I think that's a really hard thing for even players that make it to the NHL and have a lot of success to sort of be able to do because it requires a weird mix of humility and arrogance. Yeah. And to remain humble and arrogant when you're pushing 40 and you've played 20 years and done everything there is to do, again, I just, I find that really compelling. And, you know, it makes me always like, it makes me wonder, what will, what will Connor McDavid? What will Austin Matthews if he gets close?

what will they be able to focus on at this late stage of their career? Because for Sidney Crosby, who probably will end up with closer to 90 points on a, I just can't stress this enough, wretched Pittsburgh Penguins hockey team. And for Alex Ovechkin to be on a great team at this point in his career and not have to score every night for them to win, but still be putting together possibly a 40 to 45 goal season, And it's it's bonkers.

I don't know how else to describe it. It's bonkers. You use the word arrogant. I used to use that word all the time during the Black Hawk's heyday, that these guys were so arrogant that no matter what the situation, no matter what their seed, no matter what they were down three to one in a playoff series, matter if they were on the road for whatever it was, they were so arrogant. They just knew they were going to win and they knew they were going to produce.

And their top guys always just believed that. And it was like an earned arrogance. And that's something about pro athletes. They have that arrogance. Like you don't have to like be a dick. to be arrogant. There's just this thought in your head that there's no way I can't win because look who I am, look who I'm surrounded by. I love what you said there last earned arrogance because I think we've all covered athletes that have or teams that have the wrong type of arrogance, right?

The type of arrogance that is sort of projection, masking doubt. Earned arrogance is a different level and it's it's the rarefied air in sports to me, right? We're talking Michael Jordan. We're talking, you know, Djokovic and tennis, we're talking, you know, I had to say this because the PD stuff, but the Barry Bonds is of the world, right? And if anyone was arrogant, it was Barry Bonds. Yes, right. But like, I admire earned arrogance because to me, that's what makes you special, that ability to go out there and be like, you know what, even if it's not there, it's there.

I know it. because deep down your opponent knows it too. So I think that's what makes it such a special thing and makes these guys treasures to cover at this point in their careers. All right. We're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about another guy who's on his road to that earned arrogance,

Nathan McKinnon. All right, we're back. Let's close out the show by talking about Nathan McKinnon. I was there in Denver when he got his 1,000th point. He actually got it twice because the first time it was called over for overturned for an offside review. We'd love those offside reviews, don't we? Nathan McKinnon's journey to a thousand points has been kind of remarkable

because for the first few years of his career, he was really underwhelming. I had a chance to talk to him at length at the morning skate on Monday. And I was talking to him about Connor Bedard and how, you know, people expect everyone now to be Sydney Crosby and score 100 points their rookie year when they're the top overall pick. But Nathan McKinnon, who very well might be the best player in the world right now, including Connor McDavid. That's how good McKinnon has gotten, was really struggling those first few years. years. But since 2017-18, which I think was his fourth or fifth season, he's averaging

1.4-3 points per game. That's ahead of Drysidal, just a hair behind Kutcherov, still quite a way short of McDavid. David. But it's just a reminder, especially when we're talking about the Connor Bedards and Macklin-Cellibrini's of the world, that sometimes it takes a few years, right? Sometimes it's just, you're on a bad team and you're not ready yet. You're 18, 19 years old, and we've got to cut these guys a little bit of slack. Las, I think you hit the nail on the head there. And by the way, that was a fantastic idea and a really good execution of it on that story. And you know, I don't offer praise a lot about anything.

I appreciate that, Rob. But I thought it was just so insightful. I love it when we hear guys that have gone through it talking about guys that are going through it. I'd rather hear that than the guy that's going through it, talk about it. So that's always sort of like my, that's the coolest part of the job for me. But yeah, I think Nate is the best player in the world right now. And to me, the best part of the Four Nations was sort of seeing that on display. I just feel like he has, I want to be careful how I say this because I don't want to make it seem like I give anybody else credit for Nathan McKinnon.

But I think what's benefited him the most is three things. Landisog not being there to be the captain of that team and Nate having to really take on that burden of sort of being the, Not that he wasn't always the guy as the best player, but it's different when you have to be the guy as sort of the leader, you know, uh, that I think having a peer rival to chase in McDavid has really brought out a part of Nate that is just different.

And I think having Crosby without saying it, but obviously showing it being like, well, of all the great young guys or all the great guys after, me, he's my guy. And I think knowing how much Crosby means to Nate because of where they come from and how they've trained together and all this, I think the combination of all three of those things has sort of brought something out of Nathan that is, I don't want to say it wouldn't have

come out. But I think it brought it out of him at a time when he was reaching his peak that have allowed us to see the full bloom of Nathan McKinnon. And, you know, if I had one player right now to win a hockey game and I had to put him on the ice, it would be Nathan McKinnon. I just feel like he's going to make that play. He's going to, he and not only is he going to make that play, he's going to make that play and not have to force it that might make the play go the other way. He's an exceptional hockey player. I think he is, he and McCar are elevating a Colorado team that by reputation is starting.

Aladdin, but if you watch them, you go, yeah, there's not as much there as there used to be. You know, like we talked about in the heart discussion, if he wins it, I have no problem with it. I think he is. And, you know, the great thing about Nate to me is I always wondered if he cared enough about things like scoring titles and points to, like, I always wondered if he was one of those guys, it was like, well, yeah, I can get a hundred, but I can also do these other things. But like the fact that he's embraced, like, yeah, you know, Art Ross trophies are cool too. Hey, man, I grew up in Pittsburgh.

We like Art, we like Art Ross trophies here. And I like it when players like winning them. So I just, I enjoy watching him more than almost any player in the league right now. What I love about McKinnon is the way he does it, right? Like, like there's nobody who's ever done what Connor McDavid is able to do. The moves he can make at full speed. There's nobody that can do what he does. But there's a lot of guys who play like that just at a slightly different speed.

Like Jack Hughes, Jack Hughes. Jack Hughes is probably my favorite player in the league to watch. He's very McDavidy in the way he's just like making things happen with his skating and his creativity and it's fun to watch. There's a lot of guys that can do that. But Nathan McKinnon is kind of singular in just, you know, he's the raging bull of the NHL, the way he just barrels through the neutral zone. It's got to be just absolutely terrifying.

He's soil your pants when he's coming and looking at you, just flying out. He's so strong and he's so low to the ground and he's so mean out there. Like he has this attitude that's just a little. bit different than the true skill guys. And he is as skilled as anybody, but he doesn't play like a skilled guy sometimes. He plays like an old school power forward who just happens to be able to skate 25 miles an hour. And you put it all together and with that defiant attitude that he has. And it just makes him just this singular entity in the NHL. And it, you know, we talked earlier about Crosby and

Ovechkin. I mean, you know, McKinnon's so associated with Crosby because of where they're born and their friendship. But he reminds me more of Ovechkin in terms of the, you know, I'm going to just, I can go by you, but I'll go through you and it doesn't have to be a pretty goal. I just want to score it. And yeah, I mean, he's, and I thought four nations just illustrated that. You know, to me, that was like, like when people talk about baton passing, I don't know if there's baton passing because I think people have to be willing to want to take the baton from somebody. And I do kind of sense McKinnon and McDavid don't want to take that from Crosby. in the international specter because of their reverence for him.

But like, Nathan McKinnon was the best player in that tournament. And I don't think, at least for Canada, I don't think anybody was on his level close. We really are lucky to be in this kind of new golden age of hockey because it wasn't that long ago where Jamie Ben was winning the scoring title with like 89 points. And all we had was Crosby and Ovechkin to hang our hats on. There are 10, 12 guys in league right now that are just spectacular night in night out. and we're really just frankly fortunate that we get to see them. So that's all we have for tonight.

Today, today, tonight. I don't even know what time of day it is. I'm in San Jose. It's a big time confuses me. Thanks for listening to The Athletic Hockey Show. Haley and Sean return next Thursday. Max and Corey dig deep on Corey's latest draft list on the next edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. And I'm back on Monday with Jesse Granger.

See you then. Saloo.