The Athletic Hockey Show - Should the Pens trade Jake Guentzel?, Hart Trophy anomalies, bubble playoff teams that should be worried, can Ovi score 20 goals this season?, and more

Episode Date: January 15, 2024

On today’s Monday edition of The Athletic Hockey Show, Ian and Julian ask the question: are the Dallas Cowboys the NFL’s Toronto Maple Leafs? Then, the guys discuss NHL-NFL spirt animals, if there’s an NHL team everyone could behind winning a Stanley Cup, Down Goes Brown’s five playoff bubbles teams that should be worried, Hart Trophy anomalies, what the Penguins should do with Jake Guentzel as the trade deadline approaches, which two of the Devils, Red Wings, Islanders, Lightning, Penguins, and Capitals would you pick to make the playoffs, if Alex Ovechkin will hit 20 goals this season or not, potential signature looks for hockey player bobbleheads, and more.Subscribe to The Athletic Hockey Show on YouTube: http://youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowGet a 1-year subscription to The Athletic for $2 a month when you visit http://theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show. What's up, everybody? Welcome to your Monday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. It's Ian Mendez and Julian McKenzie with you for the next hour or so. And I promise not to treat this like a therapy session because my favorite pro sports team on the planet. The only team I cheer for because of the industry I work in, I can't cheer for hockey teams. the Dallas Cowboys are out and we're going to have a little bit of fun with this

comparing them to the Maple Leafs. But I promise you, I will not get, we're not going to get bogged down. We're going to turn this into the athletic football show. Don't worry. I mean, I just want you to know as someone who has another podcast with a Dallas Cowboys fan at the center of that, I am going to do the same thing I did with that person. I will provide a space

I save space for you to vent and express how you feel about the game because I love you very much and I value you as a friend I value our friendship and our relationship as podcast hosts and I feel that you are entitled to a space where you can feel out your feelings about such a terrible loss

I mean this was supposed to be the best Cowboys team and what like 30 years or something, but, but, but, you know, you have to do with Stephen A. Smith and all these other types of saying, you guys are an accident waiting to happen. I know, yeah, the Toronto Maple Leafs comparisons. Look, dude, if you need the space, by all means, please, please, please take it. Okay. So I'm going to start with this. I'm just going to, oh my God, put this on here. You actually wore a hat. Oh, man. This is the, this is the exact opposite of what I, of what I got with the CJ show with Chris Johnson. So,

look at I know I knew that that was going to happen and that's what it's like for Maple Leafs fans see here's the thing this is why the Cowboys in the Maple Leafs you know the Spider-Man pointing meme yeah the two Spider-Man's that's the Leafs and the Cowboys

because it's them you have tremendous regular season success you have a massive and divisive fan base where either you love the Cowboys in Maple Leafs or you hate them like there's not very many people who are just in the middle, like, I don't really mind.

I don't really care about the Maple Leafs one way or the other. It's black or white, like with both of them, right? And so I think when they implode and in the last two, three decades, all they've done is implode in the postseason, everybody loves to grab their popcorn and watch it, right? Like, who doesn't love, like, I would be hypocritical if I got mad at people for cheering against the Cowboys. I see it with the Maple Leafs. get it. I get it.

As a Cowboys fan, we are the Maple Leafs. Right? Like, not too long after the game ended, there was a photo of Dak Prescott going around. On his helmet, they took off the star, and they put the Toronto Maple Leafs logo on there. I don't think there's any, like, like I saw that question up on the rundown there

about, you know, which team it draws that best comparison to the Dallas Cowboys from the NHL. There's no other comparison to be made. It's Dallas. and Toronto. I think you put it out as eloquently as you put. Like, people love to see these two teams fail. And a big reason for that,

I'm not saying you come across as this, but a lot of people from those fan bases act like every year is their year and they're the best thing on the planet. And they're both talked about ad nauseum on their respective radio shows and TV shows and podcasts. They're big revenue generators for their respective leagues. So, of course, people from other teams are going to look at them and be like, hey, and just laugh when they're down.

They're the big, I don't know about big bully, but like everyone likes to see the big guy who talks his crap all the time get knocked down to the ground. That's essentially what's happening. That's essentially what's happened with the Leafs and the Dallas Cowboys. It is a perfect unison, a perfect marriage between those two franchises. It is what it is. Ah, man. So you know what would be a fun exercise to do, although I don't think we could match up all 32. Like, if you had the pair, every NHL team has an NFL equivalent.

You know, like who, it's the buddy system, right? Yeah. But I don't know beyond the Maple Leafs and, uh, You know, beyond the maple least and the cowboys. I was thinking about this. Like the Buffalo Sabres. Yes. Would they be the Detroit Lions?

Or, I mean, would they just be the Buffalo Bills? Like, what would they be? Like, who would be their part? Who would be their spirit animal? I get the Buffalo Bills thinking because there, once upon a time, the bills weren't able to make the playoffs. Remember, they needed help in like a random Bengals Ravens game to get into the playoffs. Yeah.

like he's like he he he's a hero and it just ushered in this era where we now know the buffalo bills as a playoff team yeah um but yeah you could totally make the argument that they're the detroit lions now because up until yesterday that was the team that couldn't get out of the first round a similar exercise um that i was trying to do in my head uh yesterday because a good buddy of mine a drew livingston who uh works with us at the s tpn he was trying to figure out like in terms of NHL teams and playoff success, like what's the closest comparable with the Detroit Lions?

And I was trying to think of a team that hadn't like, and basically what Drew was trying to say was, you're trying to think of a team that one, didn't make the playoffs all that often, and two, when they did make the playoffs, they didn't get out of the first round. And at first I thought of

the New York Islanders, because there was a time before John DeVarris scored an OT winner. They hadn't gone out of the first round in 23 years, I want to say, the Florida Panthers, I think, before they won, had that President's trophy winning season in, in 2022, and then they won in that first round. That had been like the first time in like 20-something years. Well, I think the first time got.

Yeah, exactly. First time in ages. Like in the 90s, right? In fact, when the Islanders won that first round series for the first time in how many years, it was at the expense of the Florida Panthers. John DeVaris scored against them if my memory serves correct. The Buffalo Sabres might be that bit because, but even then, like, if you look like the last, like, my friend Drew put up 30 years as a bit of like a, a little bit of a limiter here.

But like, yes, the Sabres haven't made the playoffs since like, what, 2011. But even before that, if you're going back, like, they have a cup final appearance in there. Those were some good Sabers teams in the 2000s too. They've had their era where they were good. it's just been a bit of a dry spell. So it's been really, I mean, it's a similar exercise to what you're trying to do in terms of finding a buddy system

with NFL teams and with NFL teams and NHL teams, but nothing is going to beat the Dallas Cowboys Toronto Maple Leafs comparison. It's two big franchises that suck up so much of the ecosystem in their respective leagues. And whenever they go down, it's rarely ever quiet. When can you think of a time

when the Dallas Cowboys got eliminated from the playoffs and it was just like a ho-hum, you know, they weren't supposed to be in the situation anyway. It feels like it's always some kind of crazy situation. Like a Jared Cook, Cattle on the sideline.

Dak Prescott running with the ball with how many seconds left when there's no timeouts. Similar to the Leafs, you lose to Nick Cousins last year. You blow a 3-1 series lead to the Montreal Canines. Those two franchises have found a way to get eliminated in the most spectacular ways possible.

The only thing you're missing if you're a Dallas Cowboys fan is that you haven't lost a game to like a random guy getting plucked off the street and being named a kicker, which is kind of like the closest thing to like a Zamboney driver stepping in net. Some rando comes in and kicks a 43-yard field goal to win a game that. That's exactly. Dude, like that would be like the most, like could you imagine?

Imagine like the Dallas Cowboys lose a game to like what's the equivalent of a Zamponi driver for what like someone who mose a like cuts lawn on a fresh football field like someone who paints the groundskeeper. A groundskeeper.

Someone who paints the lines on a football field. If they came up and it's like all right, I got a kick for this team and they beat the Cowboys, there would be memes unlimited until the end of time. That would be the closest thing. to a Zamboni driver beating the Toronto Maple Leafs as a goal. Yeah.

No, I love this. I'm running away with this. This is fine. Well, I'm looking forward to your column because I planted the idea in your brain. You're going to match all 32 teams in the NHL with the NFL. So I'm looking forward to you figuring out how Nashville is the Carolina Panthers or something like something random. I'm going to have to call up.

I'm going to have to call up DGB on that one because that's the only one. His brain is the only one. who's warped and twisted enough where he could just do stuff like that. I don't know if I have that creativity in me. No, it's a fun idea. But look, I think universally people seemed happy for the lions that they won a playoff game, right, for the most part.

I don't understand if you're a Packers fan or a Bears fan, maybe you're not as happy. But let me ask you, is there a team in the NHL? Because the Buffalo bills a little bit in the NFL, I know you're just saying, and the Lions, and even to some extent the Cleveland Browns, they're kind of lovable, right? Or like, you know, like how the Chicago Cubs were a few years ago

when you were kind of like, you know, I wouldn't mind if that team won. They kind of needed a championship. Does the NHL have a kind of lovable universe? You know what? I love those guys. I'd like to see them win. Or do we just all hate each other too much in hockey to have that happen?

I feel like we, that's just the nature of how fan bases work in the NHL where so much of it is hyper local and a lot of people really just care about their own teams, as opposed to the NFL where it's become the soap opera and the popularity of fantasy football makes it that we find a way to care about every team in some way because of how exciting the drama is and maybe you're betting on something or maybe you have a player on your team. Yes, it's fantasy hockey too, but I don't know.

I feel like it just doesn't work that same way. What I'll say is this. I think if the Buffalo Sabres, it's not going to happen this year. But if they make the playoffs next year, I think a lot of people will at least breathe some kind of sigh of relief. Because I don't think you can go through all those years rebuilding on top of a rebuild and be too happy. Like I've seen some Buffalo Sabers fans over the last little while over some results really be down bad on the timeline, just express so much disappointment. this was supposed to be their year. I get it. The similar feelings

are being felt in Ottawa right now. Detroit is still in the thick of things in that wild card race. But for Buffalo, a team that has not made the playoffs in over a decade, a team that started a rebuild, a team that had a franchise player

a few years ago. You would have thought that they should have been on the same trajectory as the Edmonton Oilers, considering you have McDavid going first overall and then Jack Eichel going number two. Jack Eichol eventually gets traded There's a whole dispute over neck surgery. And not only does it go out and thrive in his new team, he wins a Stanley Cup.

Jack Ikel has never lost a playoff series as an NHL player. Buffalo has endured so much hardship, at least from my outsider's point of view, that I think if they make the playoffs, you know, I don't even think they have to win. If they just make the playoffs, I think some people have to show some measure of sympathy. But I don't even think it'll be that much

just because of how we, we as hockey fans just, I don't know if we have that in us to like teams so much. Like what the Detroit Lions are able to do in the NFL where so many people were able to get on that bandwagon. But even then, it's been like 30, it was 32 years before they had won a playoff game. Like they were sort of all these older fans who were like the one season ticket older who was a season ticket over like six. 66 years, I think it was.

66 years. of the biggest season ticket holder. Man. There are people who we're trying to wait like five years to a decade to get on season ticket lists. But like I think a lot of people just, it's like a nice thing. Plus Dan Campbell is a head coach. His personality has endeared himself

to so many people around the league. I guess it, but like I don't know if there's anyone like that. I see someone in the comment saying like, Joel Menard. Seattle's the only one that is universally light and it's because they're new

no one feels that way for Vegas anymore. Yes, that's for sure. Vegas is, they're almost like when we all hated the Patriots because the Patriots were just kind of always winning. That's kind of Vegas now. We'd love to hear from our listeners by the way on this one.

The Athletic Hockey Show at gmail.com. Give us some more like the Toronto Maple Leaf leaves of the Dallas Cowboys. Give us some other NHL teams that might have like a spirit animal in another league. Help us out with this. You know, you mentioned Jack Eichol

here a second ago, Julian, and you also mentioned our pal Sean McIndoo, Down Goes Brown. It's a nice segue to our next topic of conversation, which is Down Goes Brown's latest column looking at, you know, his power rankings, top five, bottom five.

This week, Julian, he's added the five teams that should be a little bit, maybe a little bit worried, not hitting the panic button, a little worried about their playoff chances because they might be playoff bubble teams. Now, there's a couple teams in there, Washington and Minnesota.

I'm not too concerned about them. I don't look at them as like real, legitimate, you know, necessarily playoff locks. But the two teams that he mentioned in there, the L.A. Kings and the Vegas Golden Knights, Julian, in their last 10 games, Vegas has won three times, Los Angeles has won two times.

So I ask you this, is there legitimate concern in one or both of those markets that the Kings or the Golden Knights could potentially become a playoff bubble team or lose their status as a Stanley Cup contender? Because I think, you know, you go back three, four weeks ago,

you would say Vegas for sure is a Stanley Cup contender, the way the kings were rolling, they were a Stanley Cup contender. Do you think either of them could lose Stanley Cup contender status this season. I'm less inclined to do that for Vegas because I still think they have just about everything you need to win and teams go through rough patches. For whatever reason, I still think Vegas, unless they just completely bought them out here,

I still think we've been sleeping on them and I still expect them to be among the top three teams. L.A. they've had like an eight game losing streak at one point. And I still see them as a playoff team. The one thing I'm concerned about is the fact that because they've played as poorly as they've played, and because Edmonton has played so well as they've played, they've won 10 straight. Yeah. They've opened the door for not only for the Oilers to fully rise from the dead, the Oilers could end up being a top three team in that Pacific division, right?

I don't know if you've noticed, but like so many teams in that Western conference fighting for a wild card spot, it's pretty close. Minnesota at one point with John Hines, they had won all these games to start and they've fallen off as of late. But Calgary, Seattle, I'm trying to think some other team at Arizona, St. Louis, Nashville. There's some good teams fighting for playoff spots. If you're the Los Angeles Kings, already you're expecting more from guys like Pierre Luc Dubois. Already a lot of people are looking at your goal-tending situation, and I think people were a little bit concerned at the beginning of the year. You've proven them right to this point,

but if you're losing all those games, you've got to make sure that's in tip-top shape. If you're the Kings and you're fighting with all of those other teams for that wild-card spot, I think they could still make it, but I don't know if you want to be put in that position. I'm not inclined to, I'll say this. I think for the Kings, because of how tough the West is, it's a lot harder to really grant them a contender status.

Colorado exists. Vegas is there. If Edmonton really digs out of this, I think they get that status back for Vegas. Like, until I see, unless they fall out completely, I'm just going to dismiss this as a rough patch.

But, you know, maybe Jesse Granger is a better example of, of better examples of what's going on that's showing that they're wrong. But I think Vegas is just too good. This is just a rough patch. Yeah, you know what? Like, I'm blown away. You mentioned Edmonton's won 10 in a row.

Yeah. I was shocked that that's the first time in franchise history. The owners had won 10 a row. Think about how dominant they were. 55, 50 wins seasons were the norm in the 80s. Like I looked it up, Julian, and I thought, okay, well, they never won 10 in a row of their regular season. Did they ever win 10 in a row in the playoffs?

I looked it up. And so even in 1988, you know what their record? was in the playoffs in the in the in the in the in the 88 playoffs they were 16 and two they lost two games in the entire plus and they never won 10 in a row they won i think it was eight and then whatever and so they had one nine game winning streak in a playoffs one year they've never won 10 in a row and it's remarkable to me that they would have accomplished this now uh and not in the 80s but here we are, and the Oilers are coming in, I'm with you. Edmonton's going to claw down one of those teams.

The way this is trending, they're going to claw down one of those teams and move into a top three spot in the Atlantic. And I'll tell you who's cheering for that. Vancouver or Winnipeg or Colorado or whoever is a division winner. You don't want to see Edmonton as a wildcard team because imagine you, you like, slug it out for 82 games of regular season. You win the division. You're like

oh, thank God. We did it, guys. We won the division. Who do we got in the first round as our reward? And it's, oh, yeah, is McDavid and Drysidal and the Oilers? Like, thanks, but no thanks. So if I'm a division team to potentially win the division, the Colorado, Winnipeg, I guess maybe a little bit

Dallas, but certainly Vancouver, I don't want Edmonton anywhere in that wildcard race. Go get them. Go catch them and get them into that two three spot. Was it? I think it was us last week where we were discussing potential playoff matchups.

And I saw at one point, it was, it might still be the case that it would be Winnipeg versus Edmondson in the first round. Like, could you imagine Winnipeg going through the season they've gone through where they begin the year, they sign Shifley and Connor Hallibuck.

They double down on their core when other people might have looked at them and thought, hey, maybe rebuilding is a good idea. They prove everyone, all those people wrong. And they say, hey, no, we're the best team in Canada, if not one of the best. And then you run up on a red hot Edmonton Oilers team with Connor McDavid. You know how livid those Jets fans would be? You know how insane that would be? But also, we have to show some love to the Emmington Oilers, man.

And there was a point where in the midst of all that losing, the cup contender status, I think, was going to be lost, at least for that year. And, you know, maybe they'd find a way to claw to the playoffs. I don't know. But I did not expect for them to get to this point where they'd win 10 in a row and basically erase the first, like half of the season, essentially. And if Connor McDavid ends up, you know, climbing higher and higher into the scoring leaders and, you know,

ends the year as a scoring leader, where does this rank among like MVP seasons for a guy? Because like for him to just go from an afterthought to, to be a top player, I think that's really impressive. I think that would be incredible if the Oilers were able to pull this off and see if in Vegas falls off,

not so far off that they end up in a wild car chase, but like, what if Edmonton goes on a superb run and they're fighting for a division? I mean, we're in the halfway point of the year. Like, Emmington could go on an insane clip and if Vegas is just mediocre, maybe that's possible. I don't know.

Like, that's crazy. I think the Emmington season, that's such a fascinating story for me. And I root for stories. And if they find a way to pull this off and be this dominant team at the end of the year, like that's one of the most incredible things I've seen. You know what would be really cool?

If you got to the end of the season, And the three finalists for the Hart Trophy were Connor McDavid, Nate McKinnon, and Sidney Crosby. Can you imagine the fun debate that we would have? And I think then you could make the argument is that the greatest, you know, final three names. I have to look back. Maybe there was a year where Gretzky, Lemieux, and Eisenman.

Maybe there was a year where they were like one, two, three. But, I mean, you're not going to get better than that, are you? Like, in today's NHL? Nate, Sid, and McDavid, like you're not getting better than that. And you can make an argument for all three of them. Like, I mean, that's, man, that would, that would be, you'd create a lot of content off of those three guys,

uh, being, just battling each other, uh, for our trophy. I, I feel like I would have a pretty good guess as to who would win that. But I, like, could you imagine like Rob Rossi stepping up on, on, on an episode of the athletic. hockey show making a case for Sidney Crosby to win as he has done in articles before. Like, I wonder how that would go for for us voters here. I'd, that'd be really fun. That'd be awesome.

But I also think for Nikita Kuturov to be left off of that, especially if Tampa makes it, I would feel he's gone a little slighted. And I still, and I think it would still be fun if it was McDavid, McKinnon, and Kutrov. But I also think with Sidney Crosby being there for obvious reasons, it's more fun that way. You know what? Like I just thought, remember I said to you,

I wonder what year would have been like the best three ever to be on a ballot. Did you find it? Yeah, so I looked it up and I was right. It was Gretzky, Lemieux and Eisenman in 89.

Okay. Jeez. And Patrick Waugh was fourth. So that's, oh my God. Okay. But this is, I think,

like, here's the crazy thing. So Mariel LeBue, uh, Julian, in the year that he's scored 85 goals, had a hundred and ninety nine points,

did not win the MVP as the best player in the NHL. It, like, you know what it is to me? And I'm a bit of a baseball guy too from back in the day. It's like people may not realize this. Like Ted Williams, who's the last guy to hit 400,

like he didn't win the MVP the year he had 406. And to me, Mario scored 85 goals. and whatever, 1099 points and not, those are the two greatest individual seasons, I think in sports history that didn't end up with an MVP.

But it went, it literally went Gretzky because that was his first year in L.A., Lemieux, and then Eisman who had an unbelievable season. And he didn't win. Like, that's just,

could you imagine if we had, imagine if he had podcasts back in those days? And how people would debate 1989 podcast. Yeah, I mean, then again, radio is a thing. So I'm sure people, you know, found ways to talk about. Remember radio?

Yeah, remember radio? Right back when? Dude, I, look, I think any opportunity for us to have a fun, exciting, dynamic MVP chase, like, I'm trying to think, what was the last time we had a really fun MVP?

race. You look the one that comes to mind for me, and I don't know that fun would be the word, controversial might be the word. I think it's 2002, and Jose Theodore edges out Jerome McGinla. And it was like, what? Like, yeah, that's true. But it was a super close race.

If memory serves me in 2002, I want to say it was like maybe the closest one, ever when, yeah, I'm looking at it right now. In fact, how about this? They actually tied in the number of votes. Jose Theodore got 434 votes. Jerome McGinla got 434 votes, but because Jose Theodore had three more Frust Place votes, he got it and a gindler didn't.

So that's the closest one. I don't think there's a closer one than that. I mean, I, man, that should have been, look, I remember that early Jose Theodor, like, I don't know. I love what Julian goes full French, but like that was like around that time. That's what I started getting into hockey. I was like, what, six, seven years old. There's the, there's the, the iconic Jose Theodore Save where he's like, he's on his back. He's turning around.

He's trying to like get the puck out of his neck out of his neck. out of his neck. I think he gets out of his net. I think he uses like the paddle to get it out. Like that was the Boston series, right? The Boston series. Like stuff like that. What was like Glenn Murray? Did he make that save on Glenn Murray? I don't remember it was on Glenn Murray. I need to rewatch that play. But like that was that was man.

Like that's it's all coming back to me now. We're just Lindy on like man. That's crazy. You know what's funny man? I was doing a little guessing game with a couple friends a couple of days ago with Heart Trophy winners. Is Jose Theodore, when you go through all the names of the Heart Trophy winners, like, is he the name over the last 30 years or so that makes you turn your head the most? Like, Connor McDavid's on it a bunch of times. Austin Matthews has his. Nikita Kutrov won. Kerry Price won, and he was the best goal in the world at that point.

Patrick Kane has his. Corey Perry has one. which remember when Cory Perry was, was Hart Trophy? Like, I think on this show, too, we were discussing whether or not he has a Hall of Fame resume, but like triple goal club member, heart trophy winner.

Like, he has, he has that stuff. It's just the points I have to get to a thousand, but that's another thing. Taylor Hall, that's another name where people are like, oh, really? He won an MVP?

Like what? I think what Theodore, like if you look at the history of the Hart Trophy in the NHL, Virtually everybody on the list is a lock-it-in first ballot Hall of Famer and at worst, a Hall of Famer at some point. But the three guys that I think you could make a debate would be Theodore, Corey Perry, and Taylor Hall where you're like, I'm not sure that those guys are

Hall of Famers. Like Hall would need, you know, like five or six more solid seasons, maybe a Stanley Cop or something, some sort of signature moment. and maybe he could get in. Perry now I think his future is clouded for obvious reasons for whatever this was. And theater, I just think, well, like, statistically,

he was like a one hit wonder, essentially of the 2000s, right? Like, maybe that's a little harsh. Like, he was good for a long time. He just had one unbelievable season, but he's not going to the Hall of Fame. And also, like Jose Theodore, like compared to Carrie Price,

who that 2014, 2015 season, that's going to go down as his best season as a pro, I think he even won Canadian athlete of the year for that. That was a dominant time. But, like, Kerry Price had a stretch of good seasons. He was a top choice for Canada at the Olympics. There were so many different things that went into that. So when you see Carrie Price win the Hart Trophy, you're like, oh, okay, that makes sense because he was the best goal in the world.

In that year, 2002, I mean, the Heart Trophy, I mean, it's hard to argue against him. And if that's in a two, hard to argue against him being the best goal in the world. But, like, how long did he sustain that period? you know, like that's not, it wasn't long for him at that front. So yeah, it's definitely going to, it's definitely going to be there. One other name that's on that list who is a Hall of Famer that I wonder if people would debate about before the Hall of Fame candidacy. Enric Saddeen. Like, I think the Sadine twins, incredible in Vancouver.

And I have no problem with them being in the Hockey Hall of Fame. But before they got inducted, would they be part of that discussion as outliers? No, I don't think they were outliers. Like I think they had strong Hall of Fame cases. Like I think Perry, again, notwithstanding whatever this was and we'll have to wait and see. But he's got a case. I wouldn't know. I don't know if it's strong, but he had a case.

The Siddeans had a strong case, right? I think there are a few people who might not feel as strong. I agree. And those are the same people who think like Alfredson didn't have a strong case. I think Alpherson and these the deans are kind of in the same. A lot of people would look at those guys as Hall of Very Good. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying there are people that would.

And for the context of our conversation, I think some people would look at a Hendrik Sedeen and be like, oh yeah, wow, he's there. And actually the year after, Daniel Sadeen was a finalist for the Hart Trophy and lost to Cory Perry, which is very interesting. But yeah, there was a time when those two were among the best players in the world. So that's not as far-fetched.

I presume you have the list in front of you. Do you have the list in front of you? of of Hart trophy winners I do have it yeah okay because I wanted to do like a I'd see I'd seen one name there over the last how many years I was gonna do a guessing game with you

if you have the list and you're gonna cheat so there's like one name on the list that like they're a Hall of Famer and there's no doubt about their their credentials for that but I still find it really fascinating and really hilarious

that at least as long as I've been alive. Yeah, I think it's safe to say this. As long as I've been alive, only one defenseman has won the heart trophy. I know. It's Chris Bruner in 99, right? Yeah, and like there was a point,

like a couple weeks ago where we were discussing if Quinn Hughes had a chance at it and if Kail McCar had a chance at it. You know what's weird? And I don't know if this is the reason why. And maybe it's the same reason why it's rare for goalies to win. Goleys have won it. Don't get me wrong. You mentioned Theodore, Price, whatever. But do you think

the reason why defensemen and goalies don't win it is they have their own award? There is a Norris. There is a Vezna. But there's no like, here's the best forward of the NHL. Is that why? Or no? I, I'm not sure about that. But when you say Quinn Hughes, Kail McCar, doesn't your mind automatically go to Norris when you say Sorokin or

you know whoever, Thatcher Demko this year or whoever you want to put on the list of guys that have a good year, does your mind automatically go to Vesna before it goes to heart? Whereas with McDavid and Matthews and Crosby and McKinnon, your mind automatically goes to the Hart trophy. My brain does not do that because I have seen, we literally just had a discussion about Carrie Price

winning a heart and a Vesna trophy. we have seen guys who are not forwards win the Hart Trophy. For a defenseman, for whatever reason, it's much more difficult, but because of how the game is, I mean, you could say changed in certain ways, but because of how impactful

offensively, guys like Quinn Hughes and Kail McCarr, even a Roman Yose or an Adam Fox can be, like, it's so much less, it's, it's more plausible, I think, to put those types of players in a conversation for our

Heart trophy. I think if we were talking about more defensive defensemen, like if you were trying to make a case to me that like, man, because Hamas Linholm has this incredible defensive rating, he should be a heart trophy candidate, I'd look at you a little weird.

But if Quinn Hughes is going to be scoring all these points and hanging out with some of the top scoring leaders, like, yeah, I don't think it's that far fetch for me to think of them as a heart trophy candidate. I think it has to a special type of player. Chris Pronger clearly special type of player. But for a guy like Hughes,

for a guy like, I mean, we're, I think we're a golden generation of offensive dynamic defensemen already. So to see any one of those guys come out of it and be heart trophy worthy, like they're so important to their team playing all the minutes they play, usually being all situations guys. And again, contributing as much as they do offensively, I don't think it's as far fetch to think of a defenseman. And it wouldn't surprise me if over the next like five, 10 years, at least one of them wins. Like, what if Caleb Carr goes bonkers one year

and puts up video game numbers and ekes out a heart trophy win over like Nathan McKinnon because he's so important to his team? I don't think it's that far fetched. Man, Joel points out that, you know,

the Art Ross trophy is something for forwards. I guess the Rocket Richard too, to some extent, is a forwards-based award. A Michael points out to us here that when we're talking about the best possible trio. Well, the art roster is for the player who leads in scoring points. It doesn't have to go to a forward.

Or has done it, right? Or did it. But that's it. Like no other defenseman really truly flirted with winning a scoring. Even coffee when he was getting 40 goals and 100, he wasn't ever going to win the Art Ross trophy. Right. But like if a defenseman, and this goes for the Rocky Bresart, too,

they're for the players who lead in. scoring. If Kail McCar has himself this God tier year where he finds a way to score like 45 goals and that somehow leads the league in goals, you're going to tell me he's not going to win MVP. If Caleb McCar puts up 125 points. Yeah. I'm not saying, but are you, to be, there's no way a defenseman wins the rocket richard. Like it's just not out. No, there's no way. There's no way. But if it does like, yeah, for sure, what are we going to have What are we going to, like, come on. Like, I think, I think, we're both, we're both P-WA members and we both have abilities to vote on these awards.

Like, if it got to a point where a defenseman won the Rocket Richard Richard and they didn't win MVP, that would cause an immense amount of debate. That's like an amazing. I know it wouldn't happen. I know it wouldn't happen. But what if it did? What if it did? Like, and you didn't, and you didn't vote for, for, for, for this. player to win MVP, wouldn't it be like what like Eric Carlson went through last year?

Yeah. We're like he put up like a hundred points. And I'll admit it. I was one of those people who didn't vote for him for that award because I was trying to make it more balanced. But there were people who were like, hey, like, why didn't you vote for Eric Carlson for the Norris? That was a genuine discussion. So like if a defenseman finds a way to do that and lead the league in goals somehow, like the game

will have really changed. And if we don't compensate that, not compensate, but if we don't award the players do, with a heart trophy, especially if that helps his team make the playoffs, people are going to be looking at us like, what are you doing? Yeah, Gordon also points out, as Gordon is watching us here, that the Selke Award is for a forward, goes to the best two-way defenseman. So, but I don't know. Like, I don't feel like McDavid, like this year, if you're asking me,

who's the best forward in the NHL? My mind automatically goes to some combination of McDavid, McKinnon, Rosby, Matthews, but none of those guys would necessarily be top of mind for Selke, although Toronto fans would be like, Austin Matthews deserves Selky love and, you know. But like having, and no disrespect to the Selke Award, but like Connor McDavid doing all that to compete for a Selke Award

is like driving a Lamborghini, it's like driving a Lamborghini through a mud road. Like why? Like, he doesn't need a Selky to prove that he's that good. We don't, we don't need him to be competing for Selke trophies. No. It's a moot point. No, it's way cooler if it's the other way around and you see Kail McCar, a defenseman, right up there among scoring leaders.

It's way cooler to see the opposite as opposed to a really skilled forward. Even Sidney Crosby, who does everything so well in the game. Like if he, well, I'll say this, if he wins a Selke somehow in his career, like, we'll be like, wow, that's, that's really cool. We don't need Sidney Crosby competing for defensive forward here. We don't need that. Speaking of Crosby here, I just want to ask you about, and we're going to talk about the Eastern Conference playoff race

because it's super compelling in the wild card. But as we get closer to the trade deadline, and I know we're still like seven weeks away from it, is there a more, I don't know what the word would be, explosive situation, interesting situation, than what the penguins are facing with Jake Gensel? Like, to me, Julian, they're going to be in the playoff mix at the deadline, right? Like, it's fair to say the penguins should be in the mix for the wild card in the east.

If you're Caldubus, I mean, you can't, can you trade Gensel when you're in a playoff race? Like, this guy is, I mean, if he's healthy, he's a lock it in 35, 40 goal guy. one of the best playoff performers in the past five years, right? Like he scores at an unbelievable rate in the postseason. Like Gensel, I think it's, yeah, it's 34 goals in 58 playoff games. So if you're Kyle Dubas and you get to March the 8th and the penguins are still right in the mix, but Gensel's not signed to an extension, can you trade him? Because I don't know that he can.

Don't you just hang on to him at that point and say he's a quote unquote own rental and just let it be? Like what are you getting back for Jake Gensel on March 8th that justifies the move? I don't know. I'd rather just lose him for nothing, but that's just me. Do you get a first round pick that starts something, right? Do you like the Pittsburgh Penguins, unless I have it wrong, they only have their second, their fourth, their six and two sevens. And this is a team with an aging core. And I get it.

they're trying to win. Like, who gives a damn about draft picks if you're a team that's trying to win? But for a team like Pittsburgh, where they're closer to the end of their cup window, compared to being in the middle like a team of Colorado, at some point you can't say F them picks the whole time. You're going to need to get something. And if you find yourself further out and dealing away Jake, Jake Gensel, there's a significant market for him.

I don't know. Like, you have to at least consider it. I'm curious if that opens up considering team's salary cap pictures and whatever teams are going to be available and what their priorities might be. But, like, I don't know. Like I, it's a really fascinating situation because you're right. On that, on, I can see the penguins in some way saying, you know what, we got to keep him. His own rental, own rental. We still have to hang in this.

We have to do it for Sydney. We have to do it for Evgeny. We have to do it for Chris. We got Eric Carlson. We're trying to win. But if you're in a position where you can't win, you know, and you enter the offseason with the players that you have and not a lot of draft capital. I don't know if that's the most ideal position to be in, but I don't.

But you traded for Eric Carlson in this summer because you were theoretically in a win now window. Not in a let's build for the future. So to me, signing or sorry, trading for Carlson in July and turning around and trading Gensel at the deadline. Those are two conflicting ideologies, aren't they? Like, one of them is we're in it to win it. And the other is, like, which, so which one is it? Like, I think you just keep Gensel. If you're in the playoff race and Gensel's healthy and he's productive, you keep him and whatever happens happens. And if you don't win a cop, maybe you trade him in that window around the draft to a team for the negotiating rights. And maybe you pluck a third

out of them or a pick. Like, no? But like, but like to your point about ideologies, what's wrong with trying to be win now, realizing you're not in that position, doing a quick retool move, and then the offseason, you reassess, you make it, and then you go at it again.

If you're not winning now, but, but if you're not winning now, you're not going to get anything, what are you doing? But like, but let's thinking, let's say you don't get into that playoff spot. What do you have to show for it? Oh, man. Like, you know,

It would be interesting to look up. Seriously. This is what, remember, this is the islanders problem with Tavares a few years ago, was they were like a playoff bubble team. And they're like, I don't know what to do. And they hung on to them. And now, granted, hindsight's 20-20.

And they should, maybe they could have or should have moved on from it. And Gensel is not as iconic to Pittsburgh as Tavaris was to Long Island, right? Like, I get that. I understand that, big time. But I just look at this situation. and I think if I am Pittsburgh and I've told Sid and Gino and Latang

that we got one last ride, guys, boy, how are you trading Gensel? That's all. I mean, no, but to your point, like, when it comes time for it, depending on what assets you get, enter that next year, you might be like, okay, well, we need some extra scoring. Oops, we traded away guys,

I was going to provide that extra scoring. But at the same time, like, if you're a general, manager as much as you want to win you have to have some kind of eye for a future you can't just have your cover completely bare especially if you're an aging team

even with the players that you have. Even with the players that they have right now, they're only in the thick of things for a playoff run. Like, it's not a guarantee that they go out and win. And I think it's possible to even be in a playoff spot, not saying the Pittsburgh Penguins would do this.

But I think of the National Predators from last year where they were chasing a playoff spot. They sold. and they almost made it, and now they're competing for a playoff spot. And that's a team that's a, great example. And the summer before all of that, they signed Philip Forsberg to an extension.

Like, you can do it where, if you realize you're not a team that's doing well enough, you're in that mushy middle, you retool, and if you're confident enough in your team to really go out and compete, you could just reload and send them back out there and maybe they make it to the playoffs. Maybe they compete for a playoff spot.

There are teams that would rather, sorry, there are fans that would probably rather see their team just fold, not fold. Fold is the wrong word I should use here. But they should probably, you know, sell off assets. Yeah, oh, oh, I don't know if we locate. I think there are fans who would much rather

see their teams in that situation, sell off as many assets they can get, go through a rebuild and do it properly. But the reality is, you don't know how long that rebuild will take. A retool while it does come across his patchwork especially if your team's competitive

like it's a safer thing to do. And if you're Pittsburgh and Crosby's still playing at a high level, Malcolm's still playing at a high enough level, a Tang 2, you have Tristan Jerry there. If you have to move on from Gensop, you're able to get a significant return that can

help you out in the immediate and in the long term, is that something? point when those when those three guys Latang, Crosby and Malkin decide that they're done playing you know unless Kyle Dubas who wherever's in charge is crazy

enough to trade them for assets you're probably not going to get anything for those guys and it's going to be a long period of hurt for you to get back up there unless you have enough pieces in your stable who can help accelerate that process. So I think if you're in a position where you can move on from Jake Gensel and you get

something worthwhile, I don't it's that far-fetched. It depends on what your roster looks like after the fact. Yeah. But I think if you can get assets that can help you later on, like, I don't think it's that wrong. Okay. So I'm going to, we're going to have a little exercise here. And I'm going to leave the flyers out of this because right now they're sitting in a divisional spot. So they're not in the wild card race per se, even though they're right in there. But I'm going to leave the flyers out of this. Judith, I'm going to list six teams here in the Eastern Conference. Now, You can only pick two of them to make the playoffs and get a wild card spot.

So only two of these six teams are likely going to make the playoffs this season. I want you to tell me of these six teams, who are the two that you're picking? Okay. So there's New Jersey. There's Detroit. There's the Islanders. There's Tampa Bay. There's Pittsburgh.

And there's Washington. So Devils, Red Wings, Islanders, Lightning, Penguins Capitals. you can only pick two that you're like, you know what, that team, I believe these two teams are making the plows. Who are you going with? Too bad we don't have like, you know the music they play for who wants to be a millionaire when you have like Are you got to phone a friend now?

No, I don't need to phone a friend. I just like, you know, this would just enhance the experience here. I've been very, I've been on, I've been, I can't count out Tampa unless until further notice. they're right now tied on points with Detroit. They have a lesser points percentage. So I'll say that Tampa bakes it because I really think with the team that they have, they still have enough for, you know, one more,

not one more playoff insurance, but they can still make the playoffs, which kind of which leaves New Jersey, who I'm still really surprised about they need a goalie. They need help at that back end. I feel like the devils are likely going to be without Dougie Hamilton for the year. Yeah, but that plays up. Jack Hughes has been banged up.

like they're there's they're a banged up team. And they can't with that goal tending and without Hughes and what Timo Myers has been banged up, then you can't outscore that type of goal tending without Jack Hughes in the mix, right? Without Dougie Hamilton in the mix. So this year might have to be a write-off, which kind of sucks because the devil's,

the devil spent last year exceeding expectations and then injuries just kind of held them back this. year. That's a bit of an unfortunate situation for them. I don't know if they're going to make it at this point. I'd love to be proven wrong. The Islanders, I don't know if I trust the Islanders. It seems like whatever

they're, whatever you think the Islanders are supposed to be out of it, they find a way to hang around in that mushy middle, as I keep alluding to. I don't know if they have enough to do it, but if they make it, I'm not going to be completely surprised. So I'll say Tampa,

man, Pittsburgh, if they miss, they really need to make it. Washington, I'm not as convinced about I'm okay with discarding them. Detroit, man. They got that win over Toronto. They've really bounced back lately. Like they've shown some pushback here

in kind of a, as Max Boltman wrote about, like how did this is a season defining stretch for the Red Wings and they've answered the bell in the last week? But only two of these teams can make it. Oh, God. I, man, I, uh, These are always tough. I think it's Tampa for me for sure.

And I think because they've looked better at different points in the year. And I mean, maybe they could still fall off. And, you know, hopefully Patrick Kane is okay. But I think Detroit and Tampa could end up making it. And sorry, the Islanders, Devils, Penguins, Capitals. I just haven't seen enough from your teams this year for me to really believe in you to make it. And it sucks because Washington was fighting in that metro division. and, you know, they've kind of fallen on a bit of a tough sled.

But, like, man, Detroit, I think that this has to be the year they end that skid of not making the playoffs. Lightning, again, they have too many good players for me to see them outside the playoffs. So you mentioned Washington. It has been a really tough year for Ovechkin. Yeah. Missed both games on the weekend with a lower body injury. He seems to be day to day. He doesn't seem to be a long-term thing,

but at the halfway point of the season, you guys got eight goals in 39 games, eight goals for the great eight. So I ask you this, at the halfway point of the season, does Alex Hoveitchkin get to 20? And I can't believe that I'm asking that question. Like,

if you think about the consistency in which he's produced 40 and 50 goal seasons for the better part of a decade and a half, to come crashing down where it's legitimate to ask, is he going to get 20? I'm not sure he is because he's not 100% healthy. He's got 8 in the first half. It would require, I don't know. It's not a lot.

Isn't that wild? It's not a lock that Alex Ovechkin's 20 this year. Has there ever been a year in Alexander Ovechkin's career where teammates outscored him in terms of goals? Ooh, yeah. Boy, like, where he wasn't, he wasn't a team leader in goals. In points, he still, I think he still leads in points. But in terms of goals, there are three players right now who are better than him in goals.

Three teammates right now. Man, there was that one, there was one year where like Alex Semen was like, remember Alex Semen was pretty good? No, Ovi had more than him. Like, like, even. a year he had like 32 in like a 48 game season like yeah he had 32 like the the next guy after him was Troy Brower geez like I I don't know I mean oh you're right I just looked it up I don't I don't believe in his entire career a teammate has outscored him so the fact that we have to debate if he's going to get to 20 goals like God he might not make you might get 15 20

15 for sure, I think. Is it 15 feel safe? But I think it's a legitimate question to ask if it gets to 20. That is just, but that's, wow. If it gets to 19, what do you do in your career? Like that's such a, it would be pretty disappointing to see, considering the 40, 50, 60 goal seasons he's been able to put up. And I think a lot of us will be asking, what if from all those seasons before.

I'm not saying he's retiring, but like, obviously his chances at Gretzky's record will be significantly slowed. And that will be a storyline we don't really get to take it. Whether, yeah, it would just, it would just be a really, it would sort of, it would, it would be, it would be very weird. But yeah, I don't see him. I don't know. It's so hard to go against him, right? Because it's like every other point in his career when he's looked down and out with the goal score, he finds a way to turn it up. But this year, I'm never like this.

like we talk about outscoring outscoring guys is this also this is also the first year where you know like I get it he doesn't like go to the all star game all the time and he's even been suspended for games after the fact for skipping on it this is probably

the first time where when the NHL decided on who they were going to take for the NHL Allstar game they were like uh we don't need to take Ovachin Tom Wilson's going for the capitals this year and by the way our producer Chris Flannery points out that in 2017,

Ovechkin was tied for the team leading goals with 33 with one T.J. O'Shea. T.J. O'Shea. And Ovechkin each had 33. But your point, your original point still remains valid, which is no teammate has ever outscored Alex Ovechkin in goals in the season in Washington since 2005. Oh six. And now three guys right now. have more goals than him. And one of them is like Anthony Manta, Tom Wilson, Dylanstrom.

Wow. Wow. Indeed. Hey, let's wrap up. I want to hit on something that the Panthers did on the weekend involving Matthew Kachuk. I guess if you did this for Ovechkin, you'd probably go with a tint advisor.

But the Florida Panthers did a bobblehead giveaway in their home rink on the weekend of Matthew Kachat. And the bobblehead had had the mouth guard dangling out of his mouth. Because that's the signature look for Matthew Kachuk. The question I have for you, Julian, the question I have for the listeners of the pod, if you were designing a bobblehead of anybody in the league right now, like what other guys would actually have like a distinctive element to their bobblehead? So Matthew Kuchuk would have the mouth guard hanging out.

Like I said, I think if you did Ovechkin, you could do a tinted visor. Is there anybody else in the league that has like a signature look, a distinctive look, something that like, hey, I would incorporate that into a bubblehead? Was that it? Is that the list? Like, because like Ovechkin, an Ovechkin bobblehead,

it's the tinted visor, but the yellow laces. Yellow laces. Yeah. Like, you need that for sure. Quinn Hughes, if you do Quinn Hughes,

it seems like almost every photo we see of him, especially through memes, he looks worried all the time. Yeah. So it would be pretty funny if you just had a bobblehead of him just looking worried,

but I don't think he'd like that. But didn't the Cracken do a tannive bubblehead with the surprise look? didn't they do that already Brandon Tannive Bumblehead A Brandon Tenev So what did I say

Where he just They did it right with that looks Yeah Like I would love that But in terms of a unique look I guess it would have to be Really equipment based right I mean I can't think of anyone

Like a Chuck with the with the mouth guard out Like that's that's really good That was kind of Patrick Kane back in the day too wasn't it Like Patrick Kain was the both guard dangling guy, wasn't he? Yeah, I could see that as like, it's not something I focused on that much. But yeah, yeah, he definitely had that. Actually, you know what?

On the cover of one of the NHL video games he was on, he, the, I think, was it, NHL 10, there is like the mouth guard, like out. Like, he's definitely doing that. That could easily be a Patrick Kane thing. Absolutely. Man. I forgot. I don't know.

Like, I don't know if there is any, anyone else. I think it has to be equipment-based for sure. I guess there are some subtle stuff like producer Chris has mentioned, like Yarmier Yager, if you had one of him, like the jersey tuck in the back or Gretzky tuck on the side. But that's like too subtle. That's too, that's not like. And it's old school.

Like I'm just like in today's kind of era of players, are we at the point where like nobody has anything unique about them other than Matthew Kachuk has a mouthguard that dangles out of his mouth. Like, Vetchkin has a tinted visor. Crosby doesn't have anything. Did David doesn't have anything?

Didn't Brad Marshall look a guy? Do you want it like his tongue out or something? Like, oh, man. The Brad Marchand with retractable tongue bubblehead. Oh my God. It'd be funny, but you might not like that. I don't know.

That's another thing, right? Like you have to. Like if you really want to have fun with it, like the players have to be willing to have fun at their own expense. And not everyone is willing to do that. No, as we've learned in this league. So anyway, we'd love to hear from our listeners on that one. Hit us up The Athletic Hockey Show at gmail.com. The athletic hockey show at gmail.com.

Way in on anything that two of us have hit on today, whether it's the customized bobbleheads, whether it's the spirit animal teams with NHL teams and other leagues. whatever it is, the athletic hockey show, gmail.com. That's pretty much it, man. This hour really flew by. Really, so it's like, boom, 60 minutes of nonstop hockey talk.

You and I are back at it on Tuesday with Mike Russo. Hey. Never a dull moment. Yeah, I love Russo. I'm excited for that. Yeah. So Mike Russo will drop by

on the Tuesday edition of The Athletic Hockey Show with Julian and I. Thanks for listening to the Monday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. Leave us a rating and review. You know that we would appreciate that. You can follow us on YouTube. And YouTube.com slash at the Athletic Hockey Show.

Right now, you get a one-year subscription to the Athletic for $2 a month. If you visit theathletic.com slash hockey show.