The Athletic Hockey Show - Strange things in the NHL's Upside down Metro Division, Islanders fans boo John Tavares 1000th career point & Mikko Rantanen throws shade at Artturi Lehkonen's dad

Episode Date: December 12, 2023

Ian and Julian stick tap John Tavares for recording his 1000th career NHL point in the hostile environment of his former stomping grounds on Long Island, the guys breakdown the upside down world of the Metro Division with the Islanders, Flyers and Capitals stealing the thunder of the Hurricanes, Devils and Penguins and welcome Michael Russo to discuss the rash of violent hits and retaliations in the NHL this week, the Red Wings who are winless in Patrick Kane's first three games and Brock Boeser's resurgence in Vancouver, with the star forward taking time out of his schedule to talk with Russo.Plus, Ian and Julian take a look at Mikko Rantanene's pointed post game comments directed towards teammate Artturi Lehkonen's dad, and look ahead to McDavid vs Bedard, Tuesday night in the NHL.Subscribe to The Athletic Hockey Show on YouTube: http://youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowGift a 1-year subscription to The Athletic for $19.99 or a 2-year subscription for $39.99 when you visit theathletic.com/hockeysho Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show. Welcome to it, everybody. Your Tuesday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. It's Ian Mendez, Julian McKenzie, and I'm back at it after I needed a full day to really soak in that Nikki Minaj album as you. I would love to know your thoughts on Nikki Minaj's Pink Friday, too. That is exactly why we have the podcast for it. It's all over TikTok. It's all over the charts.

I need to know. You're a bar, you're a queen barb, man. You're a fan. I need to know your opinion, man.

I am only saying that because I listened to the pod with you and Lazz, and I wanted to hear how much you just ran me. And it took five seconds for you to say, uh, that,

that was the reason why I wasn't on the pot. So I have to say, I love doing the show with you, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. But when I'm told that you can't make the show, I literally spend like,

if, if I know from, like days before. I will spend an entire weekend trying to come up with the reason why you're not going to be available for the show. That gives me so, I put in more effort into that than the planning of the show, which I don't have to be produced. We have great producers who help us do that. Well, don't worry because I know that the vacation season is starting next week. I'm going to cook up some reasons why you're not on the pod next week. It's all fair game. Look, I love that. I actually listened to the, uh, pretty much the entire, I got through most of the pod with

you and Las and then you and Jesse Granger and it was great stuff. My favorite part of your pod on Monday was Laz talking about how, by the way, he owns a Tavares jersey, which is like, wow, that's unreal. But that conversation of you suggesting that John Tavaris was going to get to a thousand points on Long Island on Monday. I think the word you used was delicious and we couldn't wait to see it. And guess what? It happened and it happened on a late tying goal.

and all of the emotions that we thought might happen, they happened. And it was a really emotional scene. And I mean, I see people saying the Islanders fans, they should have shown more respect and they needed to be deferential. The guy got a milestone. I loved Arthur Staples column on Tuesday morning, in which Stap just basically said, hey, they're Islanders fans.

And they wear it and it's authentic. and that's them. And I get it. I'm not saying that I can understand all the vitriol because they really hated John DeVaris. So if they, I understand, I guess my point is, I understand Julian the inability to park that emotion for even 90 seconds. Like it's hard to do as a fan.

So I'm okay with that. I love the passion from that fan base. If they feel like that's the way they want to express it, express it, right? Yeah, I have a hard time. telling fans how to behave within reason. So while I do see that there are people out there who are going to look at Islanders fans and be like, man, you guys should just get over it. At the same time, I'm like, do they really have to?

This is who they are. This is what they want to do. It's there. They paid the ticket to get in. They have every right to express their feelings about John Tavares getting that a thousand point, however they feel. So what I saw that column from Arthur Staples, like I get that it had that Islanders focus, but I just thought of so many other fan bases that boo opposing players who have some kind of history to them.

I think of like Calgary Flames fans who boo Adam Fox mercilessly every time he plays a game at the Saddledom. He has never played a game as a Calgary Flame, but he gets drafted by the Flames. He doesn't sign with them. He goes to New York Rangers. What do you want Flames fans to do? Of course they're going to get upset about that type of stuff. So imagine being a New York Islander fan who pin their hopes and dreams on this. number one overall player and he decides he's going to go play for the team that he grew up loving,

which I think you can respect that. And I think you can, you know, be happy for him. But to go to a point where you don't want to boo him, like, I mean, you're allowed to do that too, but you're also allowed to boo him as well. So I had no problem with Islanders. I think it makes the moment even better. Like if John Tavaris gets that 1,000th point and Islanders fans just clap, and they're just neutral, that's so boring,

considering the history we know with this franchise and John Tavares. We needed them for full maximum entertainment. We needed them to boo. I was wondering if someone was going to throw a jersey on the ice or throw any type of debris. Not saying that's something I condone, but I'm wondering if we would have gone to that level because of the hatred that's out there.

I think the moment was absolutely perfect. I root for stories, and I have to admit, watching that game last night. When John Tavares got that point, I was like, yes, like, oh my God, he got it. Like, this is, this is great. And I'm sure you watch the reaction in the stands with his dad.

His dad. Like, that's pretty, again, it's pretty cool. Like, think about it. If I asked you, Julian, name me, I'm going to give, like, a bunch of guys, like Jeremy Roanick, where do you get his thousandth? Daniel Offerinson, where to get his thousandth point? Jerome McGillan, like, you don't know.

But I don't know. I'm going to remember 10 years. years from now, you're going to be like, oh, yeah, John Tavares got a thousandth point on Long Island because it's memorable. I'm with you. You know what? I was thinking about this too. I think the most memorable milestone ever in hockey achieved by a player who used to play for another team. So kind of like Tavares did, would have been, what? Think about this. Wayne Gretzky, when he broke Gordy Howe's record for points, career points, went from Edmonton to L.A.

and then on the night that he broke the record happened to be back at Edmonton. Like, what are they, but he got a great ovation, if I'm not mistaken. Memory serves me, it was an awesome moment, milestone moment.

But sometimes you wonder if there are hockey gods sitting way up in the clouds and they're like, you know, stroking their chin. They're like, what would be the most delicious way for this player to get the milestone or whatever?

And like John DeVare is doing it on Long Island. Now, granted, not in the building that he ever played in as a player, but still, like, you can feel it. I thought it was cool. I thought it was a really great moment. That's one of my favorite things that's happened so far this season. I think it was a great moment. And for people, even if you have no rooting interest in the Islanders or the Leafs,

just knowing about that backstory, that's what's going to draw casual fans in to that type of stuff. I'm all for it. And I think it just played out perfectly. I couldn't care less about the overtime result. I couldn't care less about the overtime result. I couldn't care less about anything else with those two teams. I think the fact that we got that point seconds before the game ended, I loved it.

I thought it was a perfect moment. And, you know, and again, if you look at this from an Islanders fan's perspective, you got an extra chance to boo Tavares and your team still won the game. Yeah, it worked out for you anyway. And we got to talk about the New York Islanders who I think, I don't know, Julian three weeks ago, four weeks ago, we're like, wow, this program is stale. This team is, you know, there were a lot of calls for firing Lane Lambert. A lot of feeling that too.

Yeah. There are a lot of people questioning Uncle Lou. Yeah. And guess what? By virtue of that win Monday night, yeah, I just double checking this. They pulled themselves into second place in the metro. That metro division now features the Islanders, Flyers, capitals holding down playoffs. spots. The Rangers we figured would be there, Julian, that's not a surprise. Islanders,

flyers and capitals ahead of the devil's hurricanes and to some extent the penguins. You want to talk about shock. Like, I know people look at the Oilers and like, wow, I can't believe the oils are in the playoff spot. I would argue the Metro division, the way it's played out, there's nothing more surprising than Carolina and New Jersey on the outside looking in and being replaced by those teams. Crazy. I couldn't agree more. Like, I was watching parts of, it might have been Emmettin, Carolina over the weekend, and I was stunned to hear that the Carolina hurricanes, at the time, it may still be the case, have the league's worst team safe percentage.

Like, that blows my mind. But does it really blow your mind, or do you realize that this is a team that, last couple of years, Julian, they've identified everything. They've got a nice group of deep forwards, really, really, I love the depth on defense. like a great blue line. The goal tendings always just kind of been mid or even worse. It's been below that. It's been kind of their Achilles heel, right? I mean, I wouldn't necessarily say Achilles heel. The fact that you said mid, I would totally expect that goaltending percentage to be mid, considering all the pieces in front of them.

I do not expect it to be at the bottom in a league where we were clowning San Jose for weeks about possibly being the worst team. We're looking at Chicago as like one of the worst supporting cast in the league. And you mean to tell me that Carolina Hurricanes are worse at goaltending than those two teams? Yeah. I mean, I should double check for myself with with team stats here. But like, really? Yeah, that's absolutely a surprise. The New Jersey Devils who made all that progress last year, we've talked on this show so many times about how the roller coaster that Lindy Ruff has been on with the fan base. And now they find themselves just fighting to get back in. And all the while, the Islanders with the team that they have.

have they were looking they were looking to be a team that was going to be in that middle the capitals we sort of put them away a little bit we just kind of thought they would the only be a team that we'd only check in on whenever alexander ovechkin would score rolls on and the the Philadelphia flyers they're supposed to be rebuilding they're not supposed to be good they're not supposed to be doing this stuff but john tortarella seems like almost everywhere he's gone he finds a way to squeeze the most out of the teams that he's coaching and at the and look through hell and high water and all of the sound bites, he will try to find a way to bring a team to the playoffs. The Metro Division is the most interesting team in the in the, sorry, the Metro Division

is the most interesting division in the National Hockey League. And it has everything to do with where the teams are slated. The Pittsburgh Penguins, we haven't even brought up the Pittsburgh Penguins and the fact that they made this big move to get Eric Carlson. And they're at the bottom of that division. Oh, and there's Columbus. You know, there's Columbus just at the bottom there. what a wild last few months for them. But I'm not surprised

that Columbus is there. Basically 2 through 7 right now the division. If you would have told me that would have been the order on December 12th, I'd look at you really weirdly. Yeah. No, exactly. I'm with you on Washington. I think a lot of us

just slap the expired label on them and we're like you know, they're done. Like they're done. There's no way. They've reached their best before date and they're not coming back. And then they get a new coach in Spencer Carberry and we're like, well, that's, anyway, they're just, they don't have what it takes in Washington.

And, you know, what's really kind of interesting about the way Washington has done this is, you know, Alex Ovechkin has, what, five goals in 25 games? Man. That's a, you know, it's not like Ovechkin has been the guy carrying this thing. I think he's leading them in points, but he's not. he's not doing it. It's not the usual capitals formula. So a huge amount of credit to Spencer Carberry for coming in.

They're getting better goaltaining now from Lindgren. Like, Darcy Kempers has been good too. But they are getting elite goaltending from Lingren. Guess what? The Washington Capitals are kind of a feel-good story, a team that had been in the playoffs for whatever, 14 years in a row. You wouldn't think that you could slap feel good on them

or underdog, but I think he can, right? But I wonder how long it'll last, right? Like, I mean, they have a minus goal differential. You mentioned Alexander Ovechkin being the leading score. He's the leading goals, though, doesn't he? Sorry, he's five, sorry, leading points together. He does have five goals, but he also, Tom Wilson and Dylan Strom have more goals. Anthony Mantha has more goals.

Also, in terms of points, I mean, Ovechkin only leads the team with 16 points, you know? Like, I mean, the goaltending, they've been getting good goaltending from Charlie Lindgren, we were talking about that yesterday with Jesse, but I wonder how long that lasts, especially in that division where at some point Carolina might wake up. At some point, New Jersey might also wake up. Some of the other teams in that division too, right? Like I wonder how long it lasts for the Washington capitals. It's a very good story, but do they fall off in the second half? That could happen. They could also not. One of those three teams, I think, though the flyers, the capitals, and the islanders,

I think one of them is going to make the playoffs. And it's going to be fun to see. Somebody that we didn't pencil in in October is going to make the playoffs in April. And that's the beauty of the NHL is that, you know, usually you don't get eight out of eight teams making the playoffs year over year. There's always at least one team, if not two, that fall out of the picture. Tell you what, why do we step aside? I think Mike Russo is pretty much ready to go.

And we're excited to chat with Mike Russo. he always drops by the Tuesday edition of the pod. We'll take a break. Come back with Mike Russo on the other side. Thank you, Julian, for resisting the urge to call it Zedbiotics. Yeah, we had a whole convo about that yesterday. See, I really did listen to this episode. Wow.

Let's find out of Mike Russo spends time listening to the athletic hockey show and he's not a guess. Let's find out. Do we have Russo? Good question. There he is. It was only about 10 years ago that I learned that you guys. pronounce it Zed. Can I just say as a Canadian,

I'd much rather Z than Zed? Yeah. Hey, Julian, I should have used Zbiotics in Calgary the night before that game because I'm still feeling the effects a week later. I'm not as young as I used to be. Oh, my Lord. Next time we hang out. Next time we see each other in person, we got to get after one, man.

We got to, I want to see how that person gets down. Yeah, I had a couple old fashions at that Marriott bar. Holy crap. That next day was tough. Man, I'll take you,

next time you're in Calgary, I'll take you to Major Tom, much better. Oh, I've been there. Oh,

yeah, major Tom for that stuff. Yeah. Look at this. Perfect, perfect product placed. I forgot, by the way,

that we're on the air. It's just so live. Yeah, Z biotics. Hey, you know, Mike, we love having you on and I know in a few minutes,

we've got a conversation between you and Brock Besser, which we're having just a wonderful rebound season for him. So we look forward to that conversation. but look, the wild were in the news cycle on the weekend. And like for me, I ended up writing about this because, look, I didn't like that Evander Kane got away with that hit on Brodine without a penalty.

Like I didn't think that was right. And then we saw, you know, Montreal, Buffalo, we saw another hit. And Columbus, Florida, we saw another hit. And it just felt like all of a sudden, like, everything started to boil over on these hits from behind. But it all started with Kane on Jonas Brodine. And I'm just wondering, like, where do you come down on this? because I know you cover the team. You watched Brodine get injured on that play,

and it was just, you know, just a tough weekend, I think, for the NHL that way. Yeah, I mean, like I obviously saw Kyle Oposa, who I know really well from here in Minnesota, you know, rant about that the other day. And I actually think that was a five-minute major. I'm not so sure that Evander Kean should have been a five-minute major, but at a minimum-a-bording penalty.

And I'm actually one of those people. I don't come down on the fact that I think of Van der Kahn, should have been suspended. I think that there are different standards for suspension compared to a penalty. And in the case of Jonas Bourdine, the league, and I, you know, again, I do think that sometimes that players need to protect themselves better. In the league's standpoint there, Jonas didn't put himself in a great position and put himself almost in a defensive position. But the league also felt that Evander can't hit him in that situation and gave him a warning from a supplemental discipline standpoint. But the two,

referees found out the next morning that they screwed up and the league felt it should have been a minimum aborting penalty. The other ones I think should have been majors. I was surprised that the good, not that that would have given Gibranston a time to to cool off, but I was surprised, I think Nick Cousin's only got a two-minute minor. I thought that was an egregious board. And I thought the other one is what was as well. So I think the problem again is that look, it's different referees every game. Everybody has a different standard. This is a fast game where everybody sees things differently, but the lack of consistency right now has put players in a position where they don't know what the hits are and what the penalty should be and things like that. And so, you know, I think that the

league got the Evander Cain thing probably right from a suspension standpoint, but without a doubt, he should have been given a boarding minor. And that that non-call turned the game upside down because and the wild took a retaliation on the same play on Avander. They got called for that and then gave up the tie-breaking goal for the winner. So it's just, you know, it's just typical to me inconsistencies with officiating that has put a lot of doubt in the minds of players. So what do you do with that, right? I think of all the hits that there have been mentioned here, like just seeing the Nick Cousins one,

where it's one thing to put Errigan Branson in the position that he was going to be in. It's a whole other thing to basically put all of yourself to, smother Good Branson along the boards and then you get a minor penalty out of it and then it takes Eric Good Branson to take it within his own hands and just throw him to the ice. I don't know if the NHO wants that

as a thing where you have more players handing out justice. If you look at essentially what was given out to Good Branson after that, one game suspension, a lot of players in his position are going to take that every time. If that's what it is, you're going to miss one game, you're going to only lose a little bit of your game check. That's not a

big problem. But I don't know. I don't want to get into a whole rant with that, but what do you do in that situation? Yeah, it's tough because, you know, first of all, we don't, we have not seen that type of play in a long, long time where old school, a guy just goes out and takes it upon himself. I mean, I don't know if you guys have ever seen Erica Branson in a locker room without a shirt on, but I would not want those freaking biceps punching me in the face, bare knuckle like 20 times on the, I mean, he looked like he was, he was like starting a lawnmower there on your cousin. Oh, my God.

It was, I cannot imagine. and what that felt like. So I think Nick Cousins will think twice next time he goes up against Eric Brunson, and that sometimes is what it needs to take. The thing with Evander Cain is, I think we all know that it is not a fair fight if you're going to fight Evander Cain. He will beat the living crap out of you. Matt Cook even learned that once.

I mean, you know, Evanor Cain can take care of himself, which is part of the issue there, is that he knows what, you know, what's anybody going to do about it. I mean, even Marcus Flino had a chance to challenge him later in the game and didn't do it. So I don't know what, to get to your original question there, I don't know what to do here because I genuinely, you know, sometimes I get accused of being like somebody that just goes after officials all the time. The funny thing is I know them all. And even that morning in the lobby of the hotel, I was chatting with both Mitch Dunning and T.J. Luxmore and friendly with them both. And they did that game that night. I do think that genuinely the referees want to do a good job. But I don't understand how sometimes they miss calls like this. And I think the fact that there's inconsistency across the board throughout the league has put a lot of players in positions where they just don't know what the rules are. But to get back to what Aposo said, his point was that because the league didn't come down on Kane and because it was no penalty on Kane, well, how is this anyway? As Arpon, you know, I thought astutely tweeted, the question wasn't that that shouldn't have been a major. It was that the Kane one wasn't.

And so that inconsistency is where the players, I think, get confused. Yeah. And I want to pick both of your brains on the David Perron six-game suspension because it is a little bit different than Good Branson. Like Good Branson, to me, was clearly premeditated. Like you said, Mike, hunted a player down old school. You don't see that that often. David Perron, I'm going to put myself in his mind for a split second,

but he sees his captain laid out and something very, visceral took over and he just went and cross-checked the first guy that he saw in the head. It's awful, but like I can, I'm not trying to rationalize what he did. I'm just trying to, I'm understanding why he did what he did. And it's, it's jarring to see your captain out like that. But I saw Alan Walsh's tweet and I get it. Like he's like, David Prawn's never been suspended before. Like, did you guys feel like six was the right number on Perron?

like all things considered? I mean, you can't do what he did. No. But the problem is, again, the inconsistencies, you know, as Alan Walsh has been rant tweeting the last 24 hours, you know, he has shown multiple crosschecks of the head that either amounted to nothing or a one or two game suspension. It's the difference with those that they were in the heat of battle. But one could argue this was, too.

As your point is, like, like, again, I'm a little biased. year because I like David Perrin a lot and I know him really well. Okay, so that I will say that. So it's hard for me to sometimes rip into that guy. But you see Dylan Larkin on the ice motionless. You look up and you see Zubbs standing over him. Yeah. He just, his wires crossed. Nobody wants to see Perron cross check on the hand. I guarantee you David Peron regrets the decision, especially when he realized that he didn't go after the person that actually in his mind created the problem. But I also think that you need to as a league at times stand up and say, look, you can't take vigilante justice into your own head. And at a minimum, you can't go after

the guy that didn't create the issue. I mean, in suspending of Branson, the league actually noted that they got, that they respected the fact that Nick Cousins, that he was angry with Nick Cousins hitting him from behind. So they almost, in that suspension, we're almost rationalizing that he went after the right guy, if that makes any sense. So I don't know. I think six games is probably the right number. If all of a sudden when other guys get cross-checked in the head, we start seeing similar numbers.

I mean, that to me is the issue. We have seen some vicious, vicious plays in the last couple of years that don't even wind up being a hearing. And I think that's where, again, from an inconsistency standpoint, that fans and media alike and people inside the game just don't get where the Department of Safety, department of player safety had sometimes come from. It does almost create the belief, the perception out there that they just throw a dart at the board and see where it lands. I've sat in with these

guys. I know that they try to do a really good job. I don't buy at all that there's bias inside that department. But at times, even though somebody that respects the job that they have, I get where people get angry at some of the decisions that are perplexed because even though they put out these videos to try to be transparent, sometimes it would help if they actually put out a public statement and say, this is why Ryan Strom wasn't suspended for kneeing Kyle Connor. This is why Matt Dumbas is not suspended for elbowing Joe Pavelsky in the face. You know,

this is why Marcus Flino is not suspended for kneeing Radic Fox. I mean, sometimes that would be, I think, a very, you know, meaningful thing that they could do to try to explain sometimes where they get the no calls. Two things here. One, you say dartboard for that type of stuff with Department of Player Safety. I use a wheel. Like you have like one game, two game, three game, four game, five game, no justice, whatever.

And you spin the wheel and then there's some type of, that's how they determine it. That's the joke I've used in the past. I also just look at the David Pan whole thing. Just looking at the reaction and how that goes about it just feels as if that was like a very violent play. Also the fact that Zub is kind of hanging. hanging around where Dylan Larkin is, like, that's extremely dangerous. One thing I always worry about, whatever players are knocked out to the point where they're unconscious or even after a really dangerous hit, if they're just on the ground, I think if

you're a player, you have to do everything you can to get everyone out of the way to let that player just, you know, let someone tend to them. I'm not sure if that, I'm pretty sure that doesn't play a role in the suspension here, but to see David Perron go at a guy who didn't even hit, who didn't even cause the impact on Dylan Larkin. And right by where Dylan Larka is laying, that is just extremely dangerous. I also don't know if I agree with all the examples

that Alan Walsh is bringing up and saying, well, how come all these things only got one game or two game or anything like, anything like that? Like I know he tweeted out Austin Matthews getting the discipline he got for Rasmus Dahlin in front. He shouldn't have got him in the neck, but I think it's a much different situation

or a much different impact compared to what David Perrault was doing with Artem Zub. Definitely, I think at the very least, I'll say, you know what? Maybe Matthew should have gotten more. The discipline should have been different. But I don't think six games, we shouldn't be seeing that stuff. So I have a hard time disagreeing with the idea of six games going for Defe depe de Peron.

And I get it. Like, you know, there's other instances where the punishment should have been more. But I don't know. I think they got this one right. But it isn't consistent. And that's going to be a problem that's, what's disappointing about this is that I thought the DOPS was getting it right at the start of the season with the way they were handing out justice. Now it doesn't, I wonder if they're still on that track. I'm not so sure right now.

Six games, the suspension for David Perron, six games, the number of games that John Hines has been behind the bench from Minnesota. And they're four and two, Mike, in those six games, fresh off a win over the crack. And how much of the kind of turnaround in Minnesota do we attribute to the change behind the bench right now? Yeah, I mean, I think a lot. They're actually five and two, and they had a little two-game blip against the Canucks and and the Oilers and then went and rebounded against the Seattle team that, man, is one, banged up, two just not playing very well.

So I think that a lot could be attributed to him. I mean, Matt Boldie is absolutely on fire right now, six goals in the seven games that Heinz has been behind the bench. We're seeing him willing to make significant, line changes. It used to be very, very hard for Dean Eveson to go that extra step and maybe separate Matt Zuccarello and Kroll Caprice off when they were getting a little too cute. He did that right in game seven the other day, separated them, and both lines scored the Erisineck line with Caprice off and Boldie and then the Rossi line with Johansson and Zucarillo. He's putting the top

defense pair out there a lot more with the top line, and he's just come in there and given a clean slate to everybody. They're playing fast, fast hockey right now. I think that, you know, Julian would agree that first period that the wild played in Calgary the other night. I don't know if I've ever seen the wild played that well in a period. And then they wound up, you know, really handling some at some tough, tough moments in that game really well to pull out the victory there. And so John's done a really good job. The question is, is this a normal, you know, coaching pump that you often get from a coaching change? Or is this going to be the norm here in Minnesota?

We'll find out. They haven't played the greatest teams yet in their scale. schedule and the two really, really quality teams that they played so far out of the seven they lost to. So there's still, the jury is still out, but I did a huge profile on him tomorrow. He is really, I spent a couple hours with him in Vancouver, sitting down with him, and he just is an impressive guy. And the one thing you learn about John Hines when you sit with him is he is somebody that is very comfortable in his own skin.

He's done this forever. This is somebody that's not just been a head coach in the NHL for nine years. He's a 27-year career coach. He has coached some of the best players in the league. He coached Taylor-Hald in MVP season. Obviously, Yossi gets the Norris in Nashville, but he's coached so many of great American players, guys like Patrick Kane swear by him.

And he spent this off-season really trying to self-improve by shadowing staffs, you know, NHL benches in Tampa Bay, San Jose, shadowing the SEC football Vanderbilt team. So he did a lot to really look inside, himself self scout self scout and try to get better. Speaking of Patrick Kane, he has played three games for the Detroit Red Wings. He even has a goal to his name as a Detroit Red Wing, but the Red Wings are 0 in three. It's not Patrick Kane's fault that the Red Wings have not won since he joined the team, right?

How do you see it? Yeah, I mean, I'll be honest. I only watched the one game and coincidentally the game that he scored in. And I was super excited for him. I like Patrick a lot. Detroit fans might want you to watch more games. if that's how it's going to go. Yeah, exactly.

You know, but yeah, this isn't his fault. I mean, sometimes I'm sure it's changed the lines around and things like that, but sometimes it's just happenstance that this stuff happens. And I still believe that Patrick Kane's going to go there and make an impact. And, you know, and we'll see where it goes. Now the big concern, though, is Dylan Larkin and how long he's going to be outside their lineup. You know, I mean, is this just a seven-day type thing? And he's going to miraculously overcome this clearly head injury that he had.

or are they going to be hopefully very, very, very careful with somebody that has a history of this. So we'll see what happens with the Red Wings, but they are a talented up-and-coming team, and we'll see where Patrick really fits in there. Before we let you go, Mike, we want to get you to set up the Brock Besser chat that's coming up here. And you've written about Brock and his family and all the struggles and the highs and the lows that they've experienced over the last few years. So I know that you know the athlete on a very very important. very personal level. So anytime you connect with Brock Besser, I know it means something to you.

So set this up and kind of, you know, give us a sense of Brock Besser's season this year as he's really, you want to talk about real good rebound, feel good stories. Boy, you'd have to put Brock Bester near the top of the list. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, at the time, like, I mean, the one thing about Brock is, if you know him, he is just a great, great person. So I think a lot of us that know him really, really are uplifted by the fact that he is having such a great season. At the time of this interview, he was leading a league in goals. Now he's, I think, one behind Kutrov and Matthews.

But he lost his father last year. And as you mentioned, I'm kind of the resident Brock Besser Beatwriter here at The Athletic. I've written probably 15 features on him, you know, dating to also my time at the Star Tribune. I've gotten to know the family really well. In fact, I'm talking to his mom tomorrow morning for a story that I'm going to be writing on Friday on Brock's season. and just how he's, why and how he is playing so stress-free this year. I mean, this is somebody that's had to watch his dad not just be sick last year and dying, but having to deal with really maladies that his dad had for years and the stress that that put on him.

And I think that there's a load taken off his shoulders right now. He's clearly taken a Rick Tocket at Mike Yo there in Vancouver, and he's playing just really, really quality hockey. I mean, even the game in the Wild had the other day in Vancouver where the Canucks didn't have a ton of scoring chances. Brock was all around the scoring chances in that game. And so he's just a great, great kid. As I mentioned, I'm going to be doing a big feature on him this week. And, you know, this is one of my more brief interviews that we've done here on the athletic hockey show,

just because he was kind enough to do this on a game day. But hopefully you get a little bit of inkling on what he dealt with last year, what he has been the reason for success this year, and maybe a little bit of the future. because remember last year, there was a very good chance at one point he was going to be traded. The Wild tried to make it happen. They weren't able to because they're their cap space. But now, suddenly, as he has this resurgence, you do have to wonder what his future is going to be in Vancouver. Well, listen, we're looking forward to it.

Like you said, six or seven minutes, whatever it is. Mike, as always, thanks for dropping by the Tuesday edition of the pod. Yep, see you guys. There you go. There goes Mike Russo. And let's do the leaves dropping here. Let's listen in. It's Mike Russo in conversation with Vancouver forward, Brock Besser.

Be joined by the NHL's leading goal scorer, Brock Besser. It is fun for you to hear as it is for me to say. Yeah, I mean, anytime someone's saying that, I think things are going pretty well. What happened this year? I mean, you know, you've just gotten off to a great start. You're healthy. And it just seems like this team, even though I know you were talking in the locker room, it's been sputtering a little bit lately.

It's just been such a great start for you guys overall. Yeah, for sure. I think just having a good summer of training and just mentally feeling, feeling good and motivated. I think that plays a big part in my success. And yeah, just with our team, I think talk's been great with us. We really focus on the small details of the game and, you know, systems and structure. And I think that's got us where we are right now. And like you said, we've been kind of winning a game, losing a game lately. So we're just trying to get back on track right now. I know the talk has always said that he loves working with the right shot forward. So, you know, I think he's a soft spot because he was a right shot forward.

He goes on the ice early. I mean, has he worked with you at all individually or? It's more just like, you know, group things. If guys get out on the ice early, he loves getting out there early and doing some drills, you know, whether it's shooting or, you know, some low offensive stuff, you know, he loves getting out there and helping guys out. Yeah, and I just even seeing on the ice today with Mike Yo, which all Minnesota fans know, I know Yosie just from his time there, coach in the wild. We're the only coach that has gotten them since Joklamar passed the first round twice. What has he brought to this team in the years that he's been here?

Yeah, he's been great for us. He's a very smart guy. And for us, forward group, he's a good communicator. He takes toxic guys individually. And I think you always want that as a forward coach just to be able to talk to a guy and, you know, kind of see how you're playing and get good feedback. So he's been great for us. I'm just glad to get to work with them.

You know, back to you, I mean, you know, last year there were always all those trade rumors. I know Minnesota was one team that they had the cap space. They would have loved to brought you in, Brock. I mean, how much, was it hard? Was it a distraction to keep that stuff out of your head? And what do you think now the future is for you here? Yeah, I mean, it was, last year was a rough year. Overall, just, you know, playing wise and, you know, mentally and, and, you know, with the trade rumors.

So, you know, I'm happy. you know, I think everything happens for reason. I'm happy that I'm still here and I never got traded. You know, I love Vancouver. It's been great to me. The city's been great. The fans have been great. So I'm just focused on this year and, you know, trying to continue to produce and score goals for our team and get our team back in the playoffs.

You, you know, how much also is it just maybe a load off your shoulder just with what went on with your father last year? And, you know, is it, do you feel like there's just a stress off of you coming into this year, and make your mind free? When I talk about mentally, I think that's kind of what I mean. You know, it's, when you go through something dramatic like that, it takes a lot from you. It takes a lot, like, it's very heavy on you. And, you know, everyone copes with it differently. And, you know, especially when you're, you know, I'm away for nine months of the year, eight months, whatever it is.

It can be hard being away from family and not dealing with it. So, yeah, I think just feeling better about all that has really kind of helped me get back to my game. How is your mom doing? I talked to her the other day. I know she was, I think the day I talked to her, she was coming out here. Yeah, she just got out here, so it was great to see her. Yeah, she's excited for me to play in Minnesota next week and get back home for Christmas too. How much family will be there for that?

I'm not really sure. I can only imagine there's going to be a ton of people. Yeah. You know, in terms of the team right now, where do you think that this could go? Because it does look like, you know, as long as you get out of this little funk. I think we got to, yeah, I mean, I think it's important. Like, you know, it's 82 games season. You're going to have ups and downs.

And I think with our group, we have, you know, we have great goaltending. And I think our decor is really good. And, I mean, it's hard to say, like, how good our decor really is. But, you know, in those first games when we were winning, they were tremendous. And our forward group was tremendous. And like I said, it's been a little rough lately. And, you know, I think us forwards and defense just want to get back to that game where it's, you just kind of know what everyone's doing.

And I think that will help us out and get back to our game. Yeah. By the way, what did you do this summer to train? I know, you always have the fun, the bachelor pad too. Yeah, no, I've all that. I think I'm past that. It's been more. You know, I was, I started May 1st, so I only took a couple weeks off after the season last year.

So that was a big change up for me and, you know, just working as hard as I can and skating a lot. And then our whole team came here a couple weeks early and skated together before camp with our skills coach. So I thought that helped a lot too. Yeah. It seems like this team, you know, is tight. I mean, you know, that maybe some of the issues of years past are pretty much. gone. For sure, yeah. I think we're just sick of losing. Yeah. We knew we had to raise our standard. And I think we set a pretty good example for the

new guys of, you know, getting here early and working hard. So it's been good so far, but we want to continue to raise that standard and hopefully make the playoffs for the city. Yeah, well, thanks, Brock, for doing it, especially on a game day. I really appreciate it. And lots of luck tonight against the wild. Yeah, thanks for so. See, bud. There we go. I was a little thrown off there. We didn't get the back to you, Ian and Julian. Oh,

look, the fact that we have these interviews, you know, we should be grateful that Michael Rousseau's going to give up this. Brock Besser,

if you're listening to this, you can go back, you know, 10 seconds, 15 seconds, whatever in your feed. Listen to Brock Bester say,

thanks, Rousseau. That is called Mike, right? Thanks, Rousseau. How do you feel about, you know,

like in radio, they have like, celebrities who will be like, hey, you're listening to Virgin Radio. What if we got like hockey players to be like, hi, I'm insert player's name here and you're listening to the athletic hockey show. Yeah, hi, I'm Brock Besser and you're listening to the athletic hockey show or hi, I'm McKenzie Weger or hi, I'm this person or hi, I'm Brady

Kachuk and you're listening to the athletic hockey show. How do you feel about that? I feel like now with the sort of where AI is, we don't need to go to the player. We can just We can. Computer generate their voice. No. This is Sidney Crosby and Connor McDavid. No. You're listening to Ian and Julian.

No. No. There are places that use AI for, for, you know what? I'm not even going to go there with that. I would rather we didn't do that. Time to wrap up the show by, you know, last week, maybe we need to make this a recurring theme when you and I are together. whatever, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. And maybe we call it awkward scrum moment or where last week was Andre

Vasilevsky. You know, Andre Vazelowski and the, what do we call that, the flatulence. Yeah. Do we ever figure out who farted in that scrum? We never did. We never did. We're being around the bush people. Some, but someone let one go.

Go. Yeah. The one will rip. So what happened? Yeah. Well, Miko Rantan, let one kind of, he ripped on a teammate's dad.

Yeah. I guess he's putting the rant and ranting here. Have a listen. This is from Monday night as Miko Rantanin is taking a subtle or not so subtle dig at teammate or Terry Lekinen's dad. It was good, you know. And actually one thing where I got a lot of extra energy, you know, one of our indigenous initial.

player's dad was talking shit about main media that I didn't train last summer like I used to do. And he was just making making things up. So I think that was for him, you know. If you talk shit, it's going to come back at you. I love, there's nothing I love more than Finnish and Swedish players, the casual swearing. They just say it as needed. But I love how he doesn't identify our Terry. By the way, he's out of lineup right now with an injury, but he says one of my Finnish NHL

teammates' dads. Gee, I wonder who that could. Yeah, I was about to say, how many Finns are on that team? You know, like, you're really narrowing it down for us, Mika. Do you think in any way that this was facetian, like, do you think he was legit, straight up, like, serious about this? Or do you think he's going to find out that this was a messing around? I was following Peter Boss' coverage on this,

because, I mean, in particular, I was following generally because it was a Flames avalanche game. But it's my understanding that after that happened, I think, like, because there were people recording what was going on, it's my understanding that, like, I think Miko went back into the locker room and, like, made sure that this was going to go out. Like, I think he was pretty serious. That's at least how I understood.

What he, what was also clarified was that Miko and Arturi Lekidin, they're good. Like this, this is no beef between the two. This is just clearly Miko going at his dad. And I'm also curious how Arturi would feel about the fact that his own dad, is slamming his own teammate for not working hard. Like how do you go about that?

At least they're good, those two players, but that could still produce an awkward situation. also why now? Actually, I shouldn't say why now. I guess the criticism maybe just came out recently. And as producer Jeff brought out, yeah, I mean, Yol Kiva Ranta is the other fin that's on the team.

Okay, so there's three. But as far as we know, we don't know if Kivaranta has a father who works in media who would take shots at Nico ranted it. Boy, I don't know. Like, what do you think the dynamic is like if your dad, like how much responsibility is, on our Terry Lackettin. Like if, okay, let me put it this way.

Things will get kind of weird between us. If I found out that, you know, your dad went to some friends and be like, man, Ian Mett is a terrible co-host. The guy doesn't put in the work. He doesn't, he's not a great co-host for my son. Now, I would kind of feel like, huh, that's interesting. Like, it would be kind of weird, would it? It would be really weird.

Between Lackettin and ranted? But I'll tell you this. I disagree with my dad. and I tell you straight up that I disagree with him and I tell my dad I disagree with his opinion. I would also be very curious as to how my dad talking crap about Ian has gone out through the airwaves considering he does not have a cell phone. Wait, your dad doesn't have a cell phone? Does not have a cell phone.

I am so envious of that man. A lot of people are. Yeah. What a blissful existence. He has an iPad. He has an iPad. So he will message me on on iMessage from time to time. With I message, yeah.

Yeah, but he does not have a cell phone. So if you call him, you have to do either a FaceTime through the iPad or like a old school telephone call. Yeah, like I, like my parents still have a landline. So I'll call home and I'll talk to like my mom and dad that way. My mom has a cell phone. But she's one of those people who will like turn their phone off. So there are times I'll call my mom and the phone doesn't pick up. and I'll be, I'll be on my mom, I'll yell,

I'll not yell my mom, but I'll be like, Mom, like, turn your phone on. I don't know, I don't use my phone. So yeah, my parents are two of the weirdest people with that sort of stuff. My mom doesn't really use her phone, and my dad just doesn't have one. So I just call them on the landline.

I'm going to get our producers to edit that video clip that just says, my parents are two of the weirdest people. And we're just going to take that. I don't have any shame of saying that, but I think I come from a very unique family. I love my parents. Oh, yeah. So anyway, like, like, like to me, that whole Lekinan, rantan and dynamic is going to be interesting.

And I don't know, it'd be weird. You might need you'll, you might need Kevin Ranta to play mediator between the two. If it got back. But it seems like they're good. But it's Miko ranted. Like this is an elite superstar, right? Like nobody's going to be not taking his side, right? Like, I mean, I guess.

I mean, I don't know. I mean, hey, look, they want a cup with those guys. I mean, Kivarento wasn't on that team when that happened. But like, they've gone through battles before. They've gone through tougher times. Like, this is just, Miko Rantan improved his point as far as I'm concerned. The team that you cover is never dull. Calgary Flames, never dull.

And, you know, I think once they traded Zudorov, the feeling was like maybe this is going to be some domino's falling. The danger, of course, when you don't trade guys right away is that they could get hurt. So what are we hearing on TANF? What's the severity here? And the Calgary Flames lost potentially a trade chip here. Here's the thing. We don't know at this point what, I mean, I don't know if you saw the hit with Ross Colton yesterday. It looks like right into the game, right?

At the start of the game. Like 15 seconds into the game. Colton knocks Tanev into the boards. You can tell they're like. his head, his whole face just goes into the board and I think he kind of instinctively kind of reaches for it just to kind of, you know, just

caress it a little bit just to, it seems like there's just a comfort there, but it's really hard to speculate about where the injury is coming from. The only thing we could say is that he's not going to play tonight against Vegas. I know some other media are on site there. It seems like he might be feeling a little bit better after yesterday, but he didn't play

after that hit. And this isn't the first time, as far as I'm concerned, with Chris Tannen where he has been put in a situation where you're wondering about his health. There was a game a couple weeks ago against Vegas where he blocked a shot with his face. Yeah. And you're like, oh, crap. Like, like, like, what are you doing?

Or not what are you doing? But that's just the type of player that he is. He's a warrior for that team. Yeah, I shouldn't have said, you know, what are you doing? That's just who Cristanaev is. He's built differently. And so many guys in that locker room respect his leadership. and respect the bravery that he'll put on the ice at any given moment.

But the unique situation that presents itself with him being a pending UFA and being in his early 30s, if he gets himself hurt, how does that affect his trade value? How does that affect teams wanting to trade for that asset? Yes, he's a right shot defenseman who would help out so many teams, but do you want him at that? I don't remember the cap it off top of my head, but do you want Chris Tanniv with the risk that's there? but at the same time, that injury risk presents itself for Elias Lindholm too. It presents itself for Noah Hanifin.

They just don't play that. They just do not play that same style that Chris Tannock plays. I think if you're trading for Chris Tannock, you have to know that that's the deal. Like you said, that's the way he plays the game. Like you could trade for him tomorrow and he would come into a lineup. He could be out right away because he just plays a nasty, mean, physical, put my body at risk type of game. So I think you know what you're getting. a defensive defenseman.

Like he plays such an important role on these teams that, you know, like a team like Toronto, so many people have been linking Toronto to Chris Tannib, a Toronto guy, the team needs defense anyway. Like he would do, he would create a positive benefit for a team that has been in need of defense

for some time. It's just you have to brace yourself anytime, a shoulder gets banged into the boards or he dives for it to block a shot and it goes off of his face or his nose or whatever or his ear. There was a, it's it where a puck went off the side of his face last year. And he still found a way to finish the season. Like, this guy puts his body through it. And he just keeps bouncing back up.

But there's a risk. That's the risk that the flames enter the season with, with all those pending UFAs and not putting them in positions where there's signed with contracts or dealt to other places. Like, it is what it is. This is part of the game as far as I'm concerned. Let's, let's wrap up by chatting, well, stay in Alberta, and chat about something that you and Laz

talked about. Laz and D&B, Daniel Nugent Bowman wrote about this earlier in the week. It is Connor v. Connor, McDavid against Bedard. And we've got a full slate of games, 13 to be exact on Tuesday. So fun, but in terms of star power,

nothing will come close to McDavid versus Dard on Tuesday night. I loved your conversation because it's a good conversation to have. I think the league needs to market its stars. And then by extension, you need to pit them against each other a little bit to some extent. And Crosby, as you guys talking about on Monday, Crosby and Oveckin, it just worked. Opposite personalities, legitimate rivals, they met the plus.

What would it take for McDavid and Bader to be a legit, true rivalry? I think it has to be, you know what I think it is? And this is probably going to take a couple of years. They got to be neck and neck for a scoring race. That's the only thing I can see. Yeah, I could see that, but I still think that both players being in different stages of their careers, like, that's still just a bit difficult for me, if that's what we're just going to go off of, but I can understand why that would work.

For me, it would take genuine, disdain for one or the for the other. I think that, you know, if you see Connor McDavid go at Connor Bedard for whatever reason, or vice versa, and

you clearly see that those two just don't like each other, then I think you have something there. Like, imagine a scenario where Connor Bedard is the young guy, the new guy on the block, and he feels so confident in himself

he feels he could come at Connor McDavid's throne. And Connor McDavid is obviously just looking at him and be like, dude, what are you doing? You have so many years left in this game. Like, don't worry about that. Like, I think he would take something like that, but that's not in the nature of the hockey players that we cover, or at least they wouldn't do that publicly for us to see.

I think it takes something between those two. Like Alexander O'Evachan and Sidney Crosby, you know, playing each other in playoff series, and the geography of it all and then being drafted where they were, there were already these natural factors that came together, but they also did not like each other.

Don't know if you remember this. I know it's not on the same level as whatever hate they might have had, but do you remember those really old all-star game commercial where all these players are in a hotel and Alexander Ovechkin is sitting in a room and he's calling, making this order for room service,

and at the end he's like, oh, my name is Sidney Crosby. At the very end, you see all this, this massive order go to Sidney Crosby's room. And Crosby turns around and he's like, oh, Vetchkin. Like he's like he's mad. And like that might on its own just be like a funny little thing. But because those two players didn't really like each other coming up, that's what makes the commercial funny. There's like a genuine rivalry that's not fake between those two players, which makes that commercial work and ultimately that rivalry to work. So for McDavid and Bredard to work, it's one thing for those two to compete against each other for a scoring title or even a playoff series at some point.

I think you need to genuinely see those two in conflict with each other. They need to dislike each other. People like to put together McDavid and Matthews together, but I don't see any sign that those two don't like each other. They've trained with each other in the summer. So I think it would not think it would have to be those two cannot get along. That's what it takes. Well, I think part of the problem, too, is the age difference, right? You got an 18-year-old in Bedard and a 26, there's an eight-year gap.

So it's not unlike, like, we never have really seen a rivalry or whatever we want to call it between McDavid and Crosby. Because we feel like there's just too much of an age gap there. Like, I think McDavid's contemporaries in terms of a true rival for him, it would be Matthews. Matthews would be the guy. Yeah, but like at the same time, I just don't feel those two, unless I'm wrong, I don't feel those two like dislike each other. Like for a rivalry to happen, do you think, there needs to be some kind of, it doesn't have to be hatred, but like there has to be this one-upping of the other.

And I don't know if that's generally there. Let me throw this at you. Beyond us trying to, beyond us trying to compare the two. Matthew scores 60 goals two years ago wins the MVP. You don't think that that's stuck in McDavid's, uh, head and he came back and he scored what, 64. That's fair. And he was almost like, oh, you guys think scoring 60s special, hey?

No one said, boom. He said, like, I think there was a little bit of one-upmanship or feeling of, hey, hey, don't forget about me. But you're right. That's fair. But I think I just, I just would like, like, like, it's easy for us to compare them statistically and even for both players to look at each other statistically and be like, all right, cool.

Like, you know, I want to make sure. that I won up this guy. I guess I would just like it to be a little bit more front facing. Like the fact that we've seen them train with each other. Like we have people in Toronto are like, all right, I can't wait until Connor McDavid's a free agent. We bring him home.

Like I wonder how that would work if you have both those two superstars playing with each other. Like I would just like something a little bit more tangible in terms of a rivalry, something that like you clearly are in. And that's another thing too. as good of a player as Austin Matthews is, Austin Matthews is on a completely different tier than Connor McDavid is. That's something else that I think adds to that too, where Connor McDavid is the best player in the world,

and how many times have we been able to say that Connor and Austin are on the same level playing field? I don't think it's been that long. So you can't even have a situation where your team Matthews or team McDavid beyond the teams, really. I mean, or at least if you do, it's not it's not that fair of a fight compared to what team Crosby and team Ovechkin was.

Like both those guys probably looked at each other statistically and they were one year as Crosby was better another year as O'Vecan was better. One year it's Crosby's better. No, one year's Ovechkin's better. How many times could you genuinely say even if Austin Matthews had a 60 goal season, how many times did you say that Austin Matthews

was legit a better player than Conrard of David was? No. No. I don't know. you could do that. So I don't know if that's like, so that's how I feel about that rivalry. Yeah, but I think Matthews winning that MVP was kind of like,

hey, not that McDavid needs motivation, but I think he really appreciated coming back and scoring 60 and then winning the hard trophy of the year after. Anyone in MVP the same year in 2022, that Connor McDavid went all the way to a conference final and bossed out that he's as he did in the playoffs. And people were wondering if you should be getting votes for the cons,

smife trophy, even though he was nowhere to be found in that cup final between Colorado and Tampa Bay. I made that point that year where it's like, okay, all right. I mean, obviously Austin Matthews deserves the heart trophy, but, you know, Conrad McDavid David still proved to be the better player overall that year. No, absolutely. All right. That does it for the Tuesday edition of the athletic hockey show.

The two of us are back at it on Wednesday. We're going to have a couple of guests. We're going to have Murat Attesh, does a great job. covering the Winnipeg Jets for us. We'll get the latest on Kyle Connor and kind of, it's been an interesting season in Winnipeg where I think they're they're exceeding expectations, probably for in a lot of people's mind.

So Marat's going to drop by and then down goes Brown. Sean McHen do, as always. So that should be a fun show coming up on Wednesday, Julie. Oh, I can't wait for that. Anytime we get to talk to DGB, it's a great time, but also Marat. Really good coverage with the Winnipeg Jets also puts up some really great stories

otherwise around the NHL. So yeah, I'm excited for that. I don't think we've had him on this year, so that's going to be fun. I think we replaced him with Kevin shoveled day off early in the season. Yeah, that's what we did. Yeah. And Kevin was all right, but I'm pretty sure Marat can wax poetic just as well, if not bad. I think so.

All right, we'll leave it there. I hope you enjoyed listening to the Tuesday pod. A reminder, any thoughts that you have, any questions, any comments? We'd love to hear from you. The Athletic Hockey Show at gmail.com. We'd love to open up that email. Get emails into the mailbag. Again, the athletic hockey show at gmail.com.

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