The Athletic Hockey Show - Team Canada’s Natalie Spooner calls in, the future of the Arizona Coyotes with Katie Strang, Jack Eichel and the “unamused face” emoji tweet, Multiple Choice Madness, and more

Episode Date: August 23, 2021

First, Ian and Hailey talk about Jack Eichel’s “unamused face” emoji tweet from late last week, which set off yet another whirlwind of speculation about a potential trade out of Buffalo.Then, Team Canada’s Natalie Spooner calls in to discuss the first week of IIHF Women's World Championships in Calgary, how the last two years have felt like “the longest offseason of training ever”, Thursday’s rivalry game against Team USA, the importance of the PWHPA, and much more.Next, The Athletic’s own Katie Strang joins the show to give an update on the future of the Arizona Coyotes after the City of Glendale informed the franchise it will opt out of its joint lease agreement for Gila River Arena following the 2021-22 season, how unique this situation is in professional sports, the financial health of the Coyotes organization, what would have to happen for hockey to truly thrive in the desert, and much more.Plus, to close things out, Ian and Hailey play a round of Multiple Choice Madness about where the Coyotes will be playing five years, if the Flames should be allowed to call Nikita Zadorov “Big Z”, the best goalie to never win a Stanley Cup, and which team improved their Stanley Cup odds the most this offseason.And, don’t forget, you can sign up for an annual subscription to The Athletic for just $3.99 a month when you visit http://theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back, everybody. It's another summer edition of the Athletic Hockey Show here in the month of August. Ian Mendez-Haley Salvean with you. Ahead on this episode of the podcast, we've got a pair of guests joining us in the next hour or so. We'll have Natalie Spooner from Team Canada chat about the women's world hockey championships taking place as we set up that huge Canada-USA matchup slated for later this week. Plus, Katie Strang drops by to discuss the latest about the coyote saga in the desert as they are looking for a new home after things fell apart in Glendale last week.

Plus, we'll wrap up the show, as always, with a little multiple-choice madness. See where Henrik Lundquist ranks amongst goalies who have never won a Stanley Cup and we'll discuss whether or not two players can have the exact same nickname. But we'll kick off this show, Haley, by bringing you in here to chat a little bit about the fact that you're right into it. Like for you, this must feel weird. It's August. It's, well, depending on where you are, it's hot.

but it's August and you're right in to a hockey tournament here. Does it feel weird to be covering hockey in August? I know we did this last year with the bubble and all this stuff, but here we go again, August hockey. Does this compute your brain computing with all of this? Yeah, I mean, I wasn't in the bubble last year. Like I know we talked about it and like I watched it, which was fine.

But yeah, I wasn't fully working in the middle of August. And it is weird. I mean, usually this is the time when everyone, like, Pierre LeBron's been at his cottage for three weeks. Like, I am not at a cottage. But it's, you know, it's awesome. I think the, like, worst part about it is you don't know what to wear because it's hot, but you're going to a hockey rink.

So I know yesterday I ended up getting cold because I was dressed for the hot weather. And I had a coffee between the Canada. in the USA games and then I could not sleep last night because I thought the coffee was a smart choice at like 7.30 p.m. Maybe you were just excited. Maybe you were just excited for this new, new episode of the podcast.

You just, you know, like you're going to say the tournament. No. Yeah. No, no. No, but it's, go ahead. Yeah, I just, but, you know, so far as the, has the tournament kind of played out the way you thought it would?

And I know we'll talk to Natalie Spooner a little later in this episode about I think all of us are super excited for Canada, USA on Thursday. And Canada's look really dominant in their first two games. But I mean, has there been anything that has kind of been off script for you in the first few days of the tournament? No. And I think, you know, maybe on paper it could look a little surprising to see Finland without any points. You know, they haven't had any wins yet. And the Finns are a team who, you know, pretty famously went to the 2019 final. They upset Canada in the semis.

You know, that was the worst finish of any major international tournament for Team Canada in 2019, finishing with a bronze medal. They've never not won gold or silver at a world championship or Olympics, which is really impressive given, you know, the long, long history of these tournaments. And, you know, the Finns were a team who'd been knocking on the door for a while. And we talked about it on the podcast, too. Like, this is a team who we think could, you know, really challenge some, some, you know, the two powers in women's hockey in Canada and USA.

And, you know, they looked really good in the first period against Canada on the opener on, it's all blending together. I believe that was Thursday or Friday was day one of the tournament. And then they played the U.S. yesterday. And, you know, the coach was saying the last couple of days, you know, we have. have eight young skaters on our team this year. We have some veterans who've retired. It's going to take some time for us to truly be like that global power. He's like, but teams should think twice. Like they'll have second thoughts about playing Finland in two to three years. Like we can play at

this level. We've shown that already. But you know, we're going to challenge in a couple of years. We just need to get our young players, you know, up to speed. So I think Finland not having any points, you know, looking at the standings is a little surprising. But again, I think it's because they've played the Canada in the U.S. three times in the last five days when you consider the pre-tournament game. And that's not easy for any team to just come in and play against the two best teams in the world three times in five days. So Finland was maybe a little bit surprising, but, you know, once you get all the context, it makes a ton of sense. First period of the Canada game, I was like, oh, God. And I was getting all these tweets from

people like, are we bad now? Like, what's happening? And it wasn't a great period. You know, they went down two nothing to Finland and then they tied it up within 20 seconds in the second period and won that game. I believe it was a five three. So, you know, Canada's looked really good. They've looked really dominant. The Americans have looked really good and dominant. So there really haven't been too many surprises. It's unfortunate how many injuries there's been on the different teams, I think. And we saw Elena Mueller go down from Switzerland. She's the best player on that team.

The Finns have had a number of injuries. So you never want to see that, especially when we know that these players have been waiting for so long to finally play and you get on this stage finally and you suffer, you know, a severe or even minor injury that takes you out of the game or the tournament. So that's been, you know, you feel for those teams to see that happening. But, you know, so far the preliminary rounds have been pretty, you know, what you would expect at a world championship with Canada and the U.S. at the top of the table. And again, like I said, we'll have Natalie Spooner on here shortly.

We'll chat about Team Canada's first couple of games in T-Up that match up with Team USA. A little bit of NHL news, actually, that kind of played itself out, Haley. Over the past few days, let's go to Buffalo where there's never a dull moment, Jack Eichel and the tweet. So for people who aren't familiar with this last week, Jack Eichel decided to tweet out a single emoji. And I, Haley, being a guy in my 40s, unlike you, I had to venture over to Emojipedia. Emojipedia is the place where people like me can decipher exactly what emojis are. So I didn't know exactly, like I'm looking at the Jack Eichael emoji. I'm like, okay, I think I know what this is, but I'm not 100% sure.

So I go to Emojipedia, Haley, where guys like I go, and I got the exact definition of the unamused face. Okay, so the unamused face is what Jack Eichael tweeted out. And according to the good people at emojipedia, that indicates it's a yellow face with slightly raised eyebrows, a frown, and eyes looking to the side. It may convey a variety of negative emotions, including, but not limited to, irritation, displeasure, grumpiness, and skepticism. as if giving the side eye. So there you go. That's what Jack Eichl tweeted out. It's set Twitter ablaze.

What's our read into Jack Eichl and the tweet? I think you took it a lot deeper there. That's what we have to do on this podcast. People are expecting. We got to fill time. Okay? The emoji is clearly giving side eye. Like you didn't need like a, like a definite.

Like a definition. Like it's clearly like looking to the side. He's unimpressed. It's like the cranky, unimpressed like, ugh. Yeah. It's not an eye roll. It's like a, I'm giving you like the stink eye or I'm just like overall unimpressed with my situation.

You should have just texted me. I should have. You probably would have just returned that exact emoji back to me and none the wiser. That checks out for sure. Yeah. So what do we think? What do we think about this though? This is obviously, it's adding, you know, an igniter or gasoline to an already flammable situation, isn't it?

Yeah, I think it's just like another, I mean, at the end of the day, like in the context of the situation, yeah, like it's big. But at the end of the day, like, this is just Jack Eichel making a tweet. And if his agents making that statement two weeks ago now didn't move the needle at all, that didn't get anything going, like, what is Jack Eichel tweeting? emoji that, you know, maybe the Buffalo Sabres needed to Google also. Maybe they didn't know what that means. Like, I don't know. Does Kevin Adams know about emojis? I don't know. Maybe not. Maybe he had to Google it just like you. But no, I don't think that makes a huge difference in this situation. Because, again, if the agents pouring more gasoline on with their big statement didn't do anything, Like Jack Eichel is still a member of the Buffalo Sabres.

And we still, you know, we haven't seen any teams move money out. And so you look at the teams who were the front runners or long believed to be the front runners. Like they've stood pat with the rosters that they built through free agency like Minnesota, the Rangers, the L.A. Kings. Those are the teams who probably have the assets that Buffalo wants. but those teams, you know, Minnesota said that they were out, reported by Mike Russo. The Rangers went and made different moves. They've been out. And the L.A. Kings went and spent a bunch of money on, you know, players like Philip

Dono, and they're probably out. So then you go down the list, like the Calgary Flames, who I've written about being in and out on the situation, they have $6 million in cap space. So the Buffalo Sabres aren't getting for prospect. for Jack Eichel because teams just don't have that this is a $10 million player who still requires surgery. And now we're at the point of the summer that if he gets traded by Labor Day, let's say, he needs to have the surgery.

Can you imagine if he goes to a new team and his new team says like, no, you're not having surgery and it turns into a big thing. Yeah. Anyways, he has to go to a new team, has to realistically have the surgery because that's what this whole thing has been about. And the losing doesn't help, but it's been about the surgery. So he's having surgery in September and it takes two to three months to recover. So now this is a $10 million player with a spinal cord slash neck injury who is going to miss the start of the season.

Like teams aren't going to be lining up saying take all of our assets, give us the $10 million. We will do everything you want Buffalo. Like it's, I just, this is an incredible hockey player when he's healthy. And I completely understand the saber standing pat. you have to get something good back for Jack Eichael. But this isn't, this isn't just a simple trade anymore. It never was.

That's why we haven't seen one. But like this is a team who I think everyone, including Jack Eichael, believes need to like maybe loosen up a little bit because this needs to, this needs to happen. Because it's keeping a player out of the game. So it's not good for Jack Eichael personally.

And it's not great for hockey. Like, you know, imagine a healthy Jack Eichael back in the NHL next year. Like it's a great thing. Put him in a big market. Put him somewhere where he's going to win or he's going to show off his skill. Like that's good for the game of hockey. Like we can never have too many talented stars in this league and in this whole situation is keeping him on the sidelines way longer than it needed to be. Yeah. And you know, that Eichael tweet just came a couple of days after a handful of Rangers fans and podcasters. they drop thousands of dollars to purchase a billboard right next to the home of the Buffalo Sabres with a big hashtag free jack. So it feels like it's reached,

but we've had these other touch points in the summer, right? Like when his agents put out that statement three or four weeks ago, essentially saying, you know, get my client out of here, we thought, wow, this is the thing that's going to, you know, tip the scales in favor of a trade. Nothing happened. And then the billboard goes, up and nothing happened. And now Jack Eichael tweets out the emoji. And I know it's only been,

you know, four days, but still nothing has happened. And so you keep wondering what is going to be the catalyst. What is going to be the thing that pushes this over the edge? And, you know, I remember Hayley a couple years ago. Remember when Colorado traded Matt Duchenne to Ottawa? And but Duches was clearly unhappy to be in Denver. And remember he showed up on picture day and he wasn't smiling. And people were like, man, they got to trade Matthew Shane. And Joe Sack is like, I'll trade them when I want to trade them. And he hung on to him and he got a King's ransom when some people thought the asset had maybe diminished a little bit. And obviously there's a medical issue involved in Jack Eichael.

But, you know, maybe Kevin Adams is like, I'm in no rush. Everyone knows we're going to finish in last place. We may finish in last place with Jack Eichael on the roster. So what does it matter to be? Owen Power is going back to Michigan. Whatever. Like this maybe, maybe, do you think that maybe that's Kevin, Adam's game is like, maybe it's better for me to wait a few weeks. And some team might have

injuries or some internal pressure to make a move. And all of a sudden, maybe my phone will start ringing. Yeah, well, he's definitely, like, you look at the Matt Duchesne thing. Like, the Sabres are probably looking at that situation as a comparable situation. Yeah. And saying, like, look at what happened with them. Like, why can't we do that? Um, Matt Duchesne wasn't making $10 million. Like, it's, it's that simple to me. Like, like, this is, not like we are in the salary cap era. We are in a flat cap for the next little while. Like teams, like I just don't know how else to explain it. And I kind of went through all the numbers on the flame side of things. Like if the flames acquired Jack Eichel right now and just gave up

four assets on like entry level deals or two-way contracts, they would be like nine to eight million dollars over the salary cap. So without making a secondary move to clear money out, like, it's just not happening. Like, teams don't have the money. And the teams that have the money probably don't have the assets that Buffalo wants. So clearly they're being really picky about it. And that's the right. Like, they have Jack Eichol and team control for five more years. So, like, they don't technically, for them, they don't have a rush on this. It's a the rush is for Jack to get healthy and to play again. But, you know, you feel for a player because like this is a guy who's been wanting to have this surgery since March, May. Like his, this isn't just

like I want to make millions and play in the NHL. This is like I want to get healthy again. Like, I'm sitting around at home with an injury that you will not let me treat. And I get it. Like, free Jack, like, trade him. Like, just, I'm sorry. Like, just do it. You're not getting the Matt Duchyne thing. He makes too much money. It's a different situation. And like this is a player's health that we're talking about too. And it's getting, I mean, it's been messy.

It's only going to get messier. And I just don't see anything pushing it over the edge for the Buffalo Sabres, whether it's another emoji, whether it's another billboard, none of it's worked, none of it's done anything. And I'm so sick of talking about it. Like, it's been all summer. I even made fun of myself. I wrote a second piece with the same headline and just went Jack Eichael 2.0.

Here we go again. Let's do it. Like, I'm complaint, poor John Vogel. Yeah. Poor John Vogel. He's on the Jack Eichael beat. He's doing a good job, but poor guy. Listen, as bad as I feel for reporters,

I feel just awful for Sabres fans. Like that is one of the best markets in hockey. It really is. It's like as passionate and as loyal as any fan base you're going to find, and they have put up with a lot. Like basically, this is almost a decade now of inaptitude. And to go through this and to be dragged through, and you know that they know that they're not going to be good this year, right?

Like the fans know. They're like, okay, we get it. We're not going to be good. But do we have to still be this kind of punchline? and low-hanging fruit for everybody. Like, they just want to get out of that face. So I feel really bad for Buffalo fans. And at some point here in the next three years or four years,

boy, it'd be nice, it'd be really nice for that market to be relevant again and to be a playoff contender. All right, Haley. Hey, listen, we're really excited. We teed this up off the top of the show to bring in Natalie Spooner with Team Canada because you've been covering, Haley, the world championships taking place in Calgary right now.

And very pleased to be joined by Natalie Spooner here on the Athletic Hockey Show. Natalie, listen, thanks so much for taking a few minutes in the middle of this tournament to join us here today. Yeah, thanks so much for having me on. Hey, listen, the first, I mean, the first question I think a lot of our listeners and fans want to know is, I mean, it's been basically, we haven't had a world championship since 2019. And you come back and it's like, it's the bubble environment and everything's kind of probably a little bit strange for you, getting back to this. But what is the first week of this tournament like, I've been like for you? Is it awkward? Is it weird in doing this in the COVID world? I mean, it's been awesome.

I think just the excitement around it and to be back and to be able to play. Definitely weird. But I guess this is also sort of our new normal. And we've kind of adjusted through, you know, COVID and through the last two years to kind of be prepared for a bubble. We've had camps and bubbles before. So we kind of knew what to expect in that regard. But I think there's just a lot of excitement, just finally being able to play. People that are not, you know, other team Canada members, we've been playing against ourselves a lot.

So to be able to, you know, play against some other logos has been a lot of fun. Can you maybe contextualize, Natalie, for listeners, you know, what this last two years has been like for you in terms of the international and, like, professional side of women's hockey? Just for people who are listening who maybe don't know just maybe how difficult the last two years has been. since the 2019 women's world championships? Yeah, it's been very, I mean, really tough, obviously, you know, since, I mean, when world championships first got canceled and we were kind of the first big event to get canceled when COVID was kind of just kicking off. And we were kind of like, what?

Like, how could they do that? And then obviously you realize the bigger picture of everything and just how bad of a, you know, case and scenario we're in and what the world was going through. So it was tough to find even just ice into able to keep training. but we were lucky that I had a pretty good training group in Toronto. I have to say the last two years has been a lot of fun, but it's also felt like the longest off season of training ever because we haven't had that many games.

So it's felt like we've been constantly training and training and training and training. But there really hasn't been that many games. We were lucky enough to get a few PWHPA games in there, a showcase. So that was super exciting. But I think we've just been building for so long up to this world championships, that it's so exciting that it's finally. here. And you know, I think what's interesting, and Haley was mentioning this earlier to us as we were just getting prepared for your interview is the fact that this is rare because you're going to have

the world championships here in August. And then we just have to fast forward six months, Natalie, and we got the, you know, the Olympic Games. And I guess you kind of go from the old, it's either feast or famine, but what, what is it like preparing for essentially back-to-back best-on-best tournaments in such a tight, tight span like this? Yeah. I mean, I think the first thing that came nine was like world championships in August. Like normally August is when we're kind of just, you know, kicking things off, getting the season started. We probably haven't even had games yet in August.

So now to have, you know, your world championships is like you want to try to be peaking in August, but also then peaking in February. So it was definitely a different kind of off season, preseason training leading up to this. It was a lot more intense than, you know, normally a summer would be. So, but I mean, it's, it's exciting. I think we're all, we were all ready just to play games and to get back on the ice and we haven't played against these teams in so long.

So to see kind of where we stack up and how far we've grown through this pandemic and how much we've improved, we feel like we put in a lot of work and we're able to really kind of sit back and reflect on what we each as individuals needed to work on and what, you know, we could bring to the team to make the team better. So, I mean, having this and then getting able to play them again in February, I think is just icing on the cake really like, the more hockey we get right now, the better. And so you're all kind of in this centralized group right now. And once the tournament's done, I believe those preparations will continue. I think Olympic centralization is really,

really cool. How would you describe what that's like, you know, just what is a centralization like for a player? Oh, boy. It's, I mean, it's awesome because you get to practice and play with, you know, the best players in Canada every single day. It's also quite strong. stressful. It's, I always say it's like a six month long tryout. Like you're literally trying out for the team until the end of December when they name the team. So it's definitely, you know, high stress, but also a really fun time to be around, you know, your teammates day in and day out and long hours at the rink. But we're also able, you know, to get to know each other so well to improve and to really hone in and really build that chemistry that we don't get to in other years

because normally it's just a short term, you know, world championships where we come together, week or two before and it's like, okay, who can we fit together here? Now it's like we really have the time to build that chemistry and have, you know, six months to really make sure we know each other pretty well. You know, Natalie, I think for a lot of us, we have circled Thursday's game against the United States. And, you know, fingers crossed, that won't be the only meeting you have with the Americans, that there'll be another matchup down the road in this tournament with higher stakes. But what's it like from the players perspective, knowing that you've, I mean, you didn't even get a chance to play against them in 2019 for a gold medal. But I am sure, like a lot of fans, maybe the players

on your team have circled Thursday's game as a great test to see exactly where your group is at. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think whenever we play against the Americans, we always know it's going to be a battle. And I think we're just excited to see, you know, to play them. I think obviously playing Finland was we were really pumped up for because after 2019, we wanted, you know, that revenge. And, you know, just to show them that, you know, we are the better team. So now going in against the Americans, we're equally excited. We didn't get the opportunity to play against them in the finals in 2019. So just making sure that we stick to our game plan and we get, you know, the job done

and get where we need to go. But, I mean, we got some great young players on our team. I think that it's going to be exciting to watch kind of how we do against those Americans and to take it to them. Natalie, you've been on the senior national team. I believe your world championship debut was in 2010, 11. So it's been, you know, about a decade now that you've been with the senior team. So 10 years under your belt in the Canada, USA rivalry,

how would you describe that rivalry between the two countries? Oh, I mean, I was a Buckeye and we had a really intense rivalry with Michigan at Ohio State, and I would say this rivalry is almost stronger than that one. So, I mean, it's a huge rivalry. I think you look at all those. games. There's so many overtime games. There's so many shootout games. And it's so back and forth. It's gritty. It's fast. It's physical. And, you know, they're the games that we want to play in as players. Like, we get so amped up to play against the Americans because we just know, you know, how,

I mean, how good they are. They're our biggest competition. And we also know how hard we've been working and how ready we are for this game. So I think that we're just super excited to be able to show the world just the hard work that we've put in and that we're prepared for whenever we get to face them here. I guess, you know, a question would be how much what, like, and when you were growing up, this, this rivalry, I especially, I think back to 2002 in Salt Lake City, and I, you know, I'm doing the math here and you would have been, what, about 12 years old for that. What kind of impacted watching Canada, USA on that stage at that age have on you as you, now look at yourself today?

Oh, huge. I mean, like, I grew up with three older brothers. So like growing up, I was like, oh, I'm going to go play in the NHL because that's what they wanted to do. And I didn't really realize. And it was probably, right? Well, watching those Olympics for sure, I watched and I was in awe. My parents said, but it was actually after that. And Jen Baudrill came back home with her gold medal and she went to a hockey school. And I went, end up going to that hockey school. And I got to meet her and see her gold medal, you know, from that Olympics. And that was kind of the moment for me where I was like, wow, like I watched her on TV. That was actually her that I saw and she's a real person and I could be like her.

And I think, I think, you know, those are huge moments. And for our game to get out there on TV and then putting all these games on TV, I think it's just going to do that same thing for so many little girls out there. And girls haven't been able to see a lot of women's hockey lately because we haven't been playing. So I think that this is this is huge. And I mean, that was kind of the moment for me that definitely, you know, made me realize that I wanted to play for Team Canada and go to the Olympics and win a gold medal. So hopefully it's inspiring a lot of other girls, too, to want to follow suit.

Well, I think we hear stories like that all the time from players on the Canadian and the U.S. side. I know Kendall Coyne and Hillary Knight were at Cammy Granato's camp in like 1998 after they won the first Olympics. And is it moments like that, Natalie, that makes what you're doing with the PWHPA so important and for context for people listening? It's the Professional Women's Hockey Players Association. You've been doing the showcases, the Dream Gap tour, and I'm really fighting for women's hockey to be put on that platform and to have a viable professional league to play in for the proper exposure. Is it that memory that you have, you know, how you got started? that makes what you're doing here with the PWHPA so important? For sure.

I mean, I don't think if I, like in my mind, if I had not met Jennifer Bauder, I may not be doing this because I would have had no clue that I could have really been like her or even that that was, you know, a woman that was out there on the ice on TV. I maybe thought it was just, you know, I thought it was someone, but I didn't put two and two together that it was really I could be like that. So I think it's huge what the P.WHPA is doing. And to just that visibility piece to inspire so many, young girls making sure that they can see us. And I know it's been difficult in the past and

we're slowly getting there with more women's hockey on TV. But I think every single time we get on TV, you know, I hope that at least one more little girl gets inspired to want to either try hockey or maybe to play hockey past university or in university or even just to want to play for the PWHPA, whatever it is. I know that hockey, you know, has brought so much to my life. So I hope every little girl that wants you can experience the same thing that I have. You know, Natalie, I think when I watched Canada Sweden in the gold medal soccer match, women's soccer at the Olympics, you know, three weeks ago, and then you turn around, you see the numbers, I think it was like 4.8 million Canadians were tuned into that.

And it was like a Friday morning at whatever time that was 9 a.m., 10 a.m. And it just makes you think, like, why can't we do this outside of Olympic and best on best. I guess, and I know it's probably an unfair question to, to throw it or phrase it in that way, but how do we, how do we get to that point, Natalie, where if it's clear that there's an appetite for it, like we wouldn't have five million people watching a penalty shootout in soccer unless we didn't care and love it, but how do we get it outside of the international best on best and into things like a professional league that we can, we can grow this thing and do it not every two or four years? Yeah. I mean, that's a tough question. I think we've

been asking ourselves that for a long time and we get the viewership in the Olympics and people kind of forget about us, you know, between. But I think it is about, you know, I think that the Olympics does a good job to of telling a lot of the stories of a lot of the players. And I think there's so many amazing women that, you know, that play in the PWHPA that people don't even know about. And I think that the PWHPA is doing a great job of showing those stories too. And hopefully if people can get to know these ladies and fall in love with these ladies, they're going to want to follow them not only in the Olympics or you take like a Carolyn Prevote, not only in the CrossFit games, but also in the PWHPA. I think there's so many dimensions of these women that play that

is so interesting that if I could tell everyone about everyone that I get to play against, like it would be so cool. So I think that, you know, just looking forward, like I think that that's a great way to hopefully, you know, build a league around these women because they're, they're really amazing. One of the big questions I wanted to ask you, Natalie, just maybe shifting back to to the tournament here. You trained with Sarah Filier this summer. She did not go to Princeton this year because there was no Ivy League season. And she's somebody who I think we've heard about for a while being, you know, an up and coming star in women's hockey. And I think through two games at this tournament, she's really shown why people are talking about her that way. What was she like to train with over the last

year with your training group in Toronto? Like, what should we know about Sarah Filier? Oh, boy. I mean, we had a blast. First of all, a training group was so much fun. I think it really helped us through COVID to be able to go to the gym every day and connect with those girls. But, I mean, you look at Sarah Filier and one thing that stands out to me right away is just her explosiveness. Like, that girl can jump. And they say the jump translates onto, you know, you're on ice speed. And she's so explosive.

She's so dynamic. She's strong. She's kind of just all around super athletic, which I think then translates onto the ice just how, you know, skills she is, how explosive she is, how quick she is.

It's just that all around player that that she can bring on the ice. And I've got to play with her these first two games. So it's been a lot of fun from, you know, going from our training groups and, you know, being on, you know, the same team there, battling it out now to being on the same team. Here, it's been a lot of fun to kind of watch her just grow and gain that confidence

and hopefully bring that confidence right through the tournament here. Should people be surprised by her poise and her confidence already on this stage, just given what you've seen from her over the last year? I mean, I think, I don't think I would say surprise is the right word. Like I think actually her being able to train with us in grit and just become comfortable with, you know, we had a group of there was about eight of us. So just become comfortable with us before coming into a team setting. I think definitely really helped her. But I think that, you know, that's how she plays.

She's a confident player out there. And she's going to make the plays or make the shots you saw last night. She was able to hold on to that puck and, you know, kind of trick the goalie and get her five. So I think we can expect more of that for sure. she comes up with these big plays even, you know, in practice when I practice against her. And I'm like, wow, okay, I'll just sit back and watch for a second because it's pretty amazing. So I think, I would say don't be surprised, but be in awe. Awesome.

Hey, listen, Natalie, before we let you go, again, we really do appreciate your time here in the middle of a tournament. I want to ask you about, I know with some teams before they get into a tournament, whether it's the Worlds or Olympics, they discuss as a group and they'll say something like, you know what, we're going to do a social media blackout. Like nobody can tweet,

nobody can post to Instagram. We're just going to all pull on the same rope. But I've noticed a handful of players are still very active on social media. Where do you fall on that? Would you ever be on board if your entire group said, you know what,

we're just going to stay off of Twitter, stay off of Instagram, and we're just going to focus for 10 days. Do you think there's any merit to that? Or do you think it's more fun to kind of interact and be social on those platforms? I mean, I have a blast on social. So, I mean, if the team wanted a blackout, I'd obviously follow that. And I'd be fine.

In the past, if I felt kind of overwhelmed by it, I've used like Hootsweet or one of those, you know, where it just pre-post for you or get someone else to post for me if I need to. But, I mean, I have a lot of fun with it. So I enjoy it and coming up with captions. I think it kind of rallies the girls to come up with captions for each other, sometime or to laugh at some of the funny tweets we get. I know there was one. It was like two blurry pictures and it was like Natalie Spooner skating by

Serafiliers. We had a good laugh about it this morning. So I think like there's just like some pretty funny topics that come up and create some good laughs within the team. So I mean, if it was a thing that we were doing a blackout shirt, I would be fine with that. I'm not, you know, really that attached to it. But we also have a lot of fun with it.

You've had some big social media moments. I know there was a video of you singing Celine Dion out there for a while. I think during quarantine, you were, you know, belting something out about quarantine. I also heard that you and Tessa Banam had a band called The Teaspoons. Is this correct? Back in our CWHL days with the Toronto Turies, we obviously used to bus everywhere back in those days. So we had the teaspoons that Tessa would bring her guitar. on the bus and I would sing for the girls.

So that was our band called The Teaspoons. We were going to drop some songs, but it never happened. We were big fans of like Wagon Wheel and Pink and we sang some great songs, but it never actually happened. No recording deal. Studio space is limited in Toronto, it seems. Yeah. Yeah, only on the bus.

Well, listen, Natalie, we really appreciate you taking a few minutes, like we said, middle of the tournament for you to take a few minutes. We appreciate it. I know our listeners appreciate it. And I know our American audience is going to be upset by this, but Natalie, we wish you the best of luck in this tournament, especially on Thursday against the team USA. Thanks so much for joining us here.

Thanks so much for having me on. All right, Haley, the rare back-to-back interview here on the Athletic Hockey Show from Natalie Spooner, who was a terrific conversation with her. Over to Katie Strang, who is a senior investigative reporter with us at the athletic and never, Katie, I got to say, as we bring in here, there's just never, you just get no downtime in the world of investigative journalism in sports, do you? Because they're just, whether it's a major league baseball, national hockey league and everything under the sports umbrella, there's never an offseason for controversy and stories that

seem to fall in your sphere. No, it's definitely the beat that never ends. So it keeps me busy. Hopefully it's good job security at least. But yes, I could, I could use a big. Yeah, I think so. So, well, listen, we appreciate you taking a few minutes to chat with us on the podcast today because I think you're reporting last week, certainly, you know, raise some eyebrows or drop some jaws,

whatever you want to say, because here we go again. The Arizona Coyotes and their future in the desert is up in the air. So maybe walk our listeners through kind of how we got to this point where obviously the city of Glendale is like, we're done with the Coyotes and this isn't a ploy. This is we're done with the Arizona Coyotes playing out of Glendale. Dale. Sure. You know, I think it's important first to just sort of like highlight the fact that the relationship between the coyotes and the city of Glendale has been fraught for some time. And the nexus of that contention is, you know, whether the city has been suitable for hockey in the long

term and this sort of ever-present idea or, you know, desire for the team to, you know, move, right? To take, you know, the team to the East Valley or, you know, to seek a new arena. And so there's been this sort of fundamental tension between those two sides. And for the past, you know, a couple years, there have been sort of some ideas about potentially moving the team to Tempe. And there have been quite a bit of back and forth between the team and the city about what a lease extension would look like. Whereas the city desires a long-term lease extension, you know, the coyotes, which is certainly within their rights and their prerogative. want a shorter term lease extension, which provides them with a bit more flexibility. If they did want to move the team to Tempe or seek another new arena somewhere in the greater Phoenix area.

So that is sort of the backdrop, the context of this decision being made. And can you maybe contextualize just how unique or not this situation is for the coyotes and the city? I mean, I don't know if I've really, I certainly haven't covered anything quite like this in terms of, you know, an issue of where a team is going to play in the very immediate future. When I first started covering hockey, I covered the Islanders. And there was always this like ever present specter of, you know, the team leaving. I mean, there was Kansas City that was rumored for forever. and then Barclays came into the picture. And, you know, I mean, so there are teams that are always sort of in the mix when there's ever talk about relocation.

And it generally aligns with more non-traditional hockey markets, lower attendance rates, or like, you know, a lack of continuity in ownership groups, you know, which, you know, we've seen in Arizona. but, you know, Arizona, as much as I feel like people try to sort of paint a caricature of the coyote's organization, has like such a loyal and passionate fan base and has one of, you know, the most sort of fast-paced, quickly growing burgeoning hockey markets in this country. It's my understanding that it's like the quickest growing in terms of girls hockey participation. So, you know, I think it's really like lazy and one-dimensional when people suggest that hockey cannot work in the desert. I don't think that's true. I think it absolutely can.

But there has been just this hall of uncertainty that has been dogging the team and the franchise and its fans for many, many years. And part of those questions that dog them have have been financially rooted, right, where people wonder, is this thing a house of cards? look, NHL hockey teams are private entities. They're not compelled to open up their books to anybody. All we can do is make a best guess at the financial health. And as part of your reporting, I know that you kind of have uncovered that, boy, this group has had a hard time either paying bills or keeping up to date.

What have you learned about maybe the financial health of the coyotes right now? So when I did kind of a deep dive into the organization this past winter, there was definitely some concerns that arose and some patterns that came to my attention. So one of the things that sort of prompted our desire to do a deep dive into the organization, as we had heard of, you know, a number of late payments or sort of financial misuse mishaps that in isolation might not have been so atypical, but when you sort of look at the bigger picture, seem to suggest a pattern, And so when we investigated that further, we did find, you know, quite a few vendors who had not been either paid on time, who had not been paid at all, and who either were asked to, you know, forgive a debt or had their debt sort of whittled down very aggressively under this specter of litigation. And one of the biggest outstanding balances that we reported at the time was sort of in the context of its lease with the Gila River Arena.

And there was, you know, ASM manages that arena. So they have an arena management agreement. But the city is in a lease agreement with the coyotes. And as it stands, it's year to year. right? So I think last September, we reported that there was a large outstanding balance that was at least a couple months past due and that the city had confirmed for us. And then in this most recent reporting, when the city of Glendale notified the coyotes that they were going to opt out of this Elise agreement, some of the communications that went back and forth revealed that there

was quite a significant outstanding balance and that there were, you know, references to previous and prior delinquent payments. So I guess I think it's important that this story that you recently had come out, you know, this doesn't exist just in a vacuum. This wasn't just, okay, yep, they're moving on. This is just, you know, another kind of layer or the next step from your original reporting about, I believe you called it the dysfunction in the desert. Yeah, I mean, I think it's, you know, there have been several questions that I think have been, you know, the organization has been faced with, you know, when you talk about sort of the larger infrastructure of an organization, it's employees, the fan base. And so I think, you know, this ownership group is still relatively new. So I think we're all still learning about some tendencies and patterns about this ownership group.

And, you know, you have to sort of wade through some of the details and try to, you know, discern from your reporting what their actions tell us about the way an organization is run. And so I think, you know, this, this latest development signals to me that there was a clear erosion in terms of relationship between the team and the city of Glendale to the point that the city of Glendale was ready to say, we're out. And that in and of itself is fairly significant. And as you report this, this is in a. negotiating ploy. This is Glendell saying we're out. Like you got one more year left. You play out this 21, 22 season. And then you got to find a new home. And then that becomes where, Katie, the rumors will start. Here comes Houston. Here comes Portland. Here comes Quebec City. Like, have you started to hear any rumblings about other cities starting to circle around

in Arizona and think that this franchise might be up for grabs? I mean, not anything substantive, not anything that I would lend a ton of credence to. I still think that's really premature. I think that the team would like to sort out a temporary solution in the greater Phoenix area as it continues to pursue, you know, a large development in Tempe, which they plan to submit or, you know, a proposal for. But where it gets a little dicey, is the fact that, so this potential Tempe project,

which they're going to essentially bid for, is basically on like a public works and compost, like a landfill, right? And so to be able to get it ready, even for development, will require very costly and lengthy environmental remediation. I think one of the reports that I saw suggested that it could cost upwards of 70 million dollars and depending on who you talk to you it could take you know a few years to even longer than

that so you know if the coyotes are approved for that and they sort of win the right to you know build that arena or move forward with some type of sort of mixed-use project there it's still pretty far away so you have to be able to kind of satisfy your short-term needs in that interim period. And I think that's where there's a real uncertainty about what locally would make sense to this team. Is there any word or indication that, you know, what's the league's involvement in all this? Because I know we always hear, and we've heard it in Ottawa, we've heard it in different places as long as it's not criminal and as long as they're like paying the league on time, like they're not going to step in and do anything about ownership

groups. But like, is this anything that the league has on their radar? Like, what's going on with the coyotes right now? I mean, I certainly think that the league is aware of the situation and the multitude of issues that have arisen both publicly and, you know, some that we have not reported about, right? So, you know, there's a sort of troubleshooting aspect that the league does on a daily basis with all teams, not just the coyotes, but several different franchises. And so you're right. I do think that there is a very high threshold. And I think that's largely because, you know, traditionally the league, it behooves the league to have franchise values optimized, right?

Like you do not want to devalue an organization within the greater NHL structure. you want to do everything that you can to sort of bolster those values, not just for the franchise in question itself, but for the greater good of the NHL community. And so that's where I think the league is probably caught sometimes in a difficult place of trying to rectify issues, but also not wanting to demean the value of a franchise. And listen, a final question for you here, Katie, on this topic, because obviously for people who may not realize you don't live in Arizona. I mean, you've done a lot of reporting around the coyotes, but you're in the state of Michigan.

And so how difficult is it to try and cover a story that is literally on the other side of the country? Actually, it hasn't been that difficult, only because I've found that, you know, people are very willing to talk when they, you know, I think people assume. And I think this is sort of the broader scope of investigative work that I do. People assume that those that want to come forward and share information do so because they have either an axe to grind or they're disgruntled. And far in a way, the most animating factor that drives someone to talk is because there is an institution they care about and love and they want to see it in its best iteration and that there are people within that organization that they care about. So if there's any sort of like, you know, financial malfeasance, there's any sort of misconduct, any sort of any type of worker issues, I think that the primary impetus that, you know, prompts people to talk is that they don't want people that they know and care about to go through the same thing. So in that way, it's been not easy to report, but I haven't had a dearth of people willing to come from. forward with valuable information because, not because they, you know, dislike the coyote's

franchise, but because they want it to be its best version of itself. I think that really ties in nicely with what you said about, you know, it's a lazy take that hockey can't work in the desert because clearly there's people who care about it. And, you know, like you said, about women's hockey growing. I guess last one for me, just with all the reporting and what you've talked to people about, what needs to happen for hockey to truly, you know, stay and grow and work the way maybe people traditionally picture in Arizona? So I think stable ownership is a huge thing, right?

Like you want a level of continuity so that there's not this feeling of transience among ownership, right? And we've seen that, you know, throughout the years in Arizona that far predates this ownership group. I think you certainly need, you know, a willingness and a commitment to invest locally and, you know, cultivate community at the grassroots level. And, you know, I think you need sort of like invested stakeholders to buy in, right? And the one thing that I, you know, would tell people if they don't feel like hockey can work in the desert is, you know, there's such a vibrant and robust youth hockey community. And that to me suggests in and of itself that it will support hockey in the desert. So I think it's just a matter of, you know,

provide, like finding the right venue that really makes sense, right? Having a stable ownership group that really, you know, buys into, you know, the culture surrounding the team and keeping the team in an area and having those ties to the community. And, you know, if you can accomplish that, I definitely think it can succeed. Well, listen, Katie, we really appreciate the time. Like we said off the top, I don't think there's ever a downtime or a down off season for Katie Strang. But Haley and I say this all the time. I think you and Rick Westhead are the two people in our industry who are doing the most important work.

And that is your uncovering stories, shining a light on things that people want to keep in the dark. So we appreciate you taking a few minutes and chatting about the Arizona situation with us. And listen, we do hope you get a little bit of downtime at some point here in late August and into September. Well, thank you and I love you both. So I'll come on anytime you want. All right, Haley, back-to-back guests there. Does that not sound like a buddy cop to you, like a sitcom, Spooner and Strang? Back-to-back.

Spooner and strength. Yeah. And it's fitting that they're like two pretty badass women. Can I say that? I don't know. It's August. It's fine. It's fitting that they're too, like you've got like the pro hockey player.

You've got, I mean, Katie, freaking strang. It'd be really good cops. Really good. Yeah. I like it. Taking down some people there. There you go. All right.

Spooner and strength. Literally. Yeah. All right. Here we go. We'll wrap it up the shoes. We always do it on Monday, Haley, with a little multiple choice madness. Why don't we just piggyback off of that conversation we just had with Katie's

Strang. So let's put, let's put our crystal ball onto the table, our athletic hockey show crystal ball. We're going to look into it. Haley, here's the question, five years from now. Where are the coyotes playing hockey? Is it A, in Phoenix, B in Houston, C in Portland, Oregon,

D in Quebec City or E somewhere else? Haley, where are the coyotes five years from now? I mean, we're doing rapid fire, so I won't go crazy. Like I want to say Quebec City because there's like such a big faction of fans, but like I feel like it's just going to be Phoenix still. Like I just see them work. I don't know. Maybe that's stupid. I just don't see any drastic changes coming.

Let me say Phoenix. You're going to say Phoenix. You know what? Like especially when you hear Katie talk about how they're trying to get something done in Tempe, right? And they're trying to, they're trying to do something. It's almost like they just need a bandaid to get there. But I don't know. I don't see them going to Quebec City.

I think if you're Gary Batman and you are. thinking like at some point we got to cut bait and move. I think Houston's sitting right there. I don't want them to move. I agree with what you and Katie said earlier. Sometimes we take too many cheap shots at hockey fans in the desert. But I'm thinking there's been too much there for too long. I'll say Houston.

I don't want it to be there, but I think it's a big TV market. I think it's sitting there. I'll say Houston. Okay. Haley, question number two here in multiple choice madness. Apparently it's rapid fire edition too, which I like. So the Calgary Flames. signed Nikita Zedorov to a contract extension on the weekend.

And during their announcement, they tweeted out, congratulations on the Big Z. They referred to Nikita Zedorov as the Big Zee in their tweet announcing the resigning of him. And I want to know should the Calgary Flames and Nikita Zedorov allowed to refer to him as the Big Zee. Your options are A, yes. He's actually had that nickname since he kind of broke in the league or B.

No, come on. There's only one big Zee and it's Zedano Charo. What do you say, Haley? And first, like, I don't like when I see people like shredding the social media manager because they're just trying to do their job. So, like, don't yell at the social team, even if they were the ones that came up with the nickname, which you said they didn't. But no, no, no, that would be like finding some guy who wears number eight and calling

him the great eight when we know, like that's what people call of Etchen. Like, it's just those are the nickname. that you have for players specifically. Like, has anyone called somebody else the Great Eight? You're not calling some random Sydney Sid the Kid. I mean, that's completely different. It's not like with the number. But you know what I mean?

I just, no, I don't know. I don't. It's not, no. It's not the Big Z. It just doesn't work for me. Yeah, I'm with you. And I saw people saying like, oh, he's been nicknamed the Big Z his whole career. I'm like, I've never.

heard Nikita Zedorov referred to as the Big Z? And there should only be one Big Z. Although, how about this? Here's a compromise, Haley. Now that he's playing in Calgary, what if we refer to him as the Big Zed? Right? It's win-win. No.

No. Okay. On to the next question. Henrik Lundquist announcing his retirement last week after a, just a wonderful and likely Hall of Fame career with the New York Rangers. Here's the question, Haley. Who should be considered the best goalie to never win? the Stanley Cup, is it A, Henrik Lundquist, B, Kerry Price, C, Roberto Luongo, or D, Curtis

Joseph? I was waiting for you to go first. Okay, I will go first. No, it's okay. And I'm going Kerry Price only because, you know, he won an MVP award. He's obviously won a Vezna. He backstop. I know Lungwist did it too.

Lundquist ended up winning a gold medal as a starting goalie in 06. But, you know, Kerry Price has done it as well. I just think at the end of the day, if I had to win one game, boy, and Hank was so good in that window from like 2010 to 2015, I thought he was, you know, arguably as good as it got. But I don't know. I guess I'll take Kerry Price by, I put Price in Longquist just a smidge ahead of Luongo, who I think is a smidge ahead of Cujo. But give me a Kerry Price.

I think Kerry Price will go down as the best goalie to never win Stanley Cup. What about you? Yeah, I think maybe it's the recency bias, but like because he does. did just retire and because we've kind of had the, you know, the replaying, you know, playing the greatest hits. But I might go with Henrik Lunkwist because, you know, he was always the one and kind of the same way that Cary Price is now. It's like, you know, you just get in and Cary Price can steal you a game. He can steal you a series. And I feel like Lundquist was the same. Like I remember there was some series, you know, the Penguins against the Rangers. And it's like, God, like they cannot.

get past this guy. So I'm going to say Henrik Lungquist, again, that's probably recency bias. If we talk about this, you know, next season or a year or so down the road that might change, and especially as Kerry Price continues to play. But yeah, I think I'm going to go with King Henry on this one for now. Okay. Last question, we'll sneak one more in here, multiple choice bad as Haley. Last week, Jesse Granger, who does a terrific job covering the Vegas Golden Knights

for us and also does a lot, joins us on our Thursday edition of the podcast. during the season with a sponsor segment from BetMGM, had the latest on the altered Stanley Cup lines in which teams had improved and which ones had the worst Stanley Cup odds vis-a-vis where they were earlier in the summer. And the two teams that had improved their odds the most, Haley, were the Devils and the Blackhawks. And I want to know which team do you think improved more with their offseason wheeling and dealing. Is it A, the New Jersey Devils or B, the Chicago Blackhawks? I'm probably going to go with Chicago because I think, you know, not only were they wheeling and dealing, but you're getting Jonathan Taves back, which is obviously pretty significant. They didn't lose, you know, any of their young pieces, neither did the devils. But I don't know, you add Mark Andre Fleury, you add Seth Jones. And I think people can debate, you know, what level of talent he is. And I'm sure they have and they will. But, you know, you know,

You know, the devil's made some good moves, too, and we had Tom Fitzgerald on. But, you know, I don't know if either team's going to really contend for a Stanley Cup, but I think that, you know, we're looking at Chicago as being like a little step higher than the New Jersey next year just because of who they already have in place in terms of veteran, you know, sure they're aging, but, you know, aging top end talent, Mark Andre Fleury and any new pieces over the devils who are still, you know, quite young and still kind of building towards something. Yeah.

And, you know, with all those guys Chicago added, don't forget, like Tyler Johnson got added there too, right? And who knows, maybe he's going to be pretty good. So I tend to, you know, agree with you. But I do think New Jersey has done a great job. Dougie Hamilton, that's a huge win, arguably the most sought-after free agent. They got him. Thomas DeTar is a pretty good pickup.

They pick up Hughes in the draft. And then, you know, Jonathan Bernier is probably going to hopefully say, solidify their goal-telling situation. I really like what the devils have done. And I wouldn't be shocked if they're able to, obviously, if Nico Heeshire and Jack Hughes stay healthy and all the stuff kind of goes your way, I wouldn't shock me if they at least, you know, kind of push for a playoff spot in a very tough division.

So I think there's a case to be made for both New Jersey and Chicago being, you know, neck and neck in this. So, all right, Haley, we'll leave it there. Boy, this was a, for the August, whatever, what are we at here? Is this our last August? No, it's not. I was going to say, is this our last August show, but it's not. It's the 23rd.

we got another one next week, but boy, this was pretty, this was pretty jam-packed for the 23rd of August. For the month of August, we've done okay. We had Tom Fitzgerald, we had Mark Trudano, Natalie Spooner, and Katie String. Spooner and Strang. It's dead of August, but we've still got stuff coming here, which is awesome.

It's been super fun. I'm less cranky on these Mondays. There we go. Well, listen, hopefully people who listen to us for the last hour or so we're feeling less cranky as well. Have a great week. You and I are going to be collaborating on a fun little live blog Thursday night with Sean Gentile and it's going to be Canada, USA.

So that's going to be a lot of fun. Just remember, we're teammates that night. I know you like to give me the Jack Eichel, side eye emoji all the time. We're teammates, Canada versus USA, okay? For everyone listening, since Ian has now discovered what that side eye emoji is, we'll text during the show during interviews or something. It'll say, like, you know, I'll go next. And I don't think he had a single response other than that emoji.

So Ian Mendez knows emojis now. He's going to start tweeting with them, I'm sure. Look for them in his recent or upcoming stories at the athletic. Exactly. And this is me being mean to you is just payback for what you used to do to me on the radio station. Like you soured me to Kia Nurse and on the radio all the time. That was live radio. Live radio in Ottawa all the time.

All the time. So you know what? It's fine. My little start. My eye rolls. My sarcasm is nothing. It's, you know what? You deserve it.

My teammate. People probably think we hate each other. Chemistry. It's glowing. You can feel it. We're such good friends. Exactly. And I think when you tweet at me or whatever, next time you send me an emoji that I don't

understand, all I got to do is go to emoji. And I got this all figured out. All right. We'll have to leave it there. Look forward to your coverage to Haley from the rest of the world championships in Calgary this week. And for everybody who was with us here for this hour and a bit, thanks for listening to this latest edition of The Athletic Hockey Show. Please follow us on your favorite podcast platform. Leave us a rating.

Leave us a review. We certainly appreciate that. I want to remind you that you can get an annual subscription on the print sign of things to the Athletic for just $3.99 a month when you visit theathletic. com slash hockey show.