The Athletic Hockey Show - The 2023 NHL Draft Combine with Max Giese, Tom Willander, Gabriel Perreault and Dalibor Dvorsky

Episode Date: June 9, 2023

The Prospect Series goes on the road this week, as Max and Corey are at the annual NHL combine in Buffalo ahead of the draft in two weeks in Nashville. The guys welcome Max Giese, to talk about the importance of the combine, his time as an NHL scout and his new gig with C.A.A. Plus, top prospects Tom Willander, Gabriel Perreault, and Dalibor Dvorsky stop by to chat with Corey and Max and share their experiences at this year's combine.Subscribe to The Athletic Hockey Show on YouTube: http://youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowHead to rhone.com/NHLSHOW and use promo code NHLSHOW to save 20% off your entire order.To get 15% off go to mudwtr.com/hockeyshow to support the show and use code HOCKEYSHOW for 15% off Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. Hey, everybody, Max Boltman here alongside Corey Pranman for another episode of the Athletic Hockey Show's Prospect Series. And we are coming to you today from the NHL Draft Combine. We are here in Buffalo. We are in the lobby where all the action is. So we hear a little bit of background noise. That is what that is.

There's a restaurant here where throughout the week, Corey, we have seen a lot of power players in the NHL coming and going. Yeah, I mean, that's what makes the conference. Combine's so fun. It's like a big NHL conference. You have all the top prospects here, obviously, for the upcoming draft, but you have all the decision makers, the GMs, the scouting directors, the area, scouts, all the major agencies represented here. It's always a lot of fun coming to this event. It is. And it's been a really good week so far for us here. The show today is going to focus on a lot of the conversations we've been having. Our main guest today is Max Gizi, who works for at CAA Sports. But for the past 10 years, has been a scout with the Winnipeg Jets. You so rarely get to. to hear from active NHL scouts that I feel like getting Max fresh off of his, you know, his 10 years as a scout, you're getting as close to an active scout as we're ever going to get live on a podcast

on the record. Yeah, and I think, you know, NHL media is a little bit different than, say, NFL media or basketball media on that front where we don't see typically guys leave the league and then join the media front shortly thereafter to talk about

their experiences in the league. You know, we have like Craig Button, who's prominent on our side, but it's been a while since he's been with the front office. I think it's really cool to get Max's recent experiences and kind of see his perspective and the team perspective from the inside of how they view the draft and the coverage of the draft.

And we're also going to have after we get done with Max some interviews we did with a few of the top prospects in this class, Tom Willander, who played for Rogla in Sweden, was a huge riser out of the U-18s, Gabe Perot, record-setting player for the U.S. national team, team development program is going to join us, and of Dahlborg Dvorsky, who another guy, Slovak, who played in Sweden this year, had another outstanding U-18s. Really excited to hear from all three of those guys. So we'll have that as well.

Absolutely. And both really help their stocks. Yeah, absolutely. So really looking forward to that. But we're going to start here with Max Gizi. Okay, we are joined today by Max Gizi, who for 10 years was a scout for the Winnipeg Jets. Now he's with CAA. We've got them with us here at the Combine in Buffalo. and that's where I want to start, Max, is kind of the behind the scenes look. You're now getting this from a new perspective, but for a while you saw this event very differently. And I think we can start there. What is the value of the combine for teams?

The value of the combine for teams, I think it's another data point getting to know these players as people. You know, as a scout, you spend all season long. As an area scout, you really kind of honing on the guys in your area, get to know them as people. Usually, again, just quick 15, 20 minute interviews, but fault calls, texts, sometimes taking a kid out for coffee, a dinner, just, again, trying to spend some time with them, talking to people around them, coaches, just looking for good references, guys you trust that you can lean on to get some information to players. You're really just trying to figure out which kids really love hockey, are really committed to it. They love everything about it. They love putting the hard work. They want to get better.

And then the combine, again, it's a quick little snapshot. but it's also the first opportunity usually that your director of scouting, your management team, the crossover scouts get to meet these guys, and also all the best players in the world for the most part of right here in one spot. So it's very valuable. But again, it's just another snapshot, stepping stone, trying to put the whole picture together. I noticed you did not know part of that answer included the running around in the tank top, spandex and doing pull-ups.

Is that fair to say then that that's maybe not the most important part of the week? Yeah, the interviews are definitely the most important part for the scouting staffs here. Some scouts will stay and watch the testing, not all. I think, you know, in Winnipeg we had our physical, like the sports science, the trainers. Those are the guys that are the experts on actually evaluating, you know, the numbers that are coming in, like, hey, that's a really good time or, hey, that's a really good VOTU max score. For the scouts, it's all about the character and stuff like that in the interviews. And again, those interviews, for the most part, you're just checking in on Looking for kids that have good self-awareness about their own games, good development plans to improve, and also just trying to get a feel for their personality.

Maybe who commands a room, who has a presence, who has some leadership, who has some conviction and belief that they're going to make the NHL and impact it. And you also get to learn about their goals. Some kids are very individualistic with that, and then some are very team-oriented. They want to make the NHL because they want to win the cup. And you're just kind of looking for little tidbits like that to get to know the people. person more, but on the scouting side of it, at least in my career, I didn't watch any of the testing. Fair to say, we would not have been allowed to do this interview earlier in your career when you were employed by a team, especially at this time of year. Rarely does the public

get to hear from employed NHL scout. So it's okay with you. I want to ask you a few kind of questions about what that life was like. And specifically, I just, you know, what do you think the biggest misconceptions are about what a scout does? What is the life of a scout? I think people would underestimate just the the amount of time that an individual scout puts in. I mean, the, these guys work extremely hard. It's, you know, when some of these guys say, hey, I've been to 270 plus games this year, it's not an exaggeration. And then you start to add in, it's a lot of travel. It's a lot of rental cars and airplanes and being away from family. And I think that's the part where, again, it's, you're going to the game and you're evaluating these

prospects and but all the while you're trying to manage the most efficient schedule possible you might be exhausted too you know one night you're i mean some guys like the directors i mean they might be in a different country and they fly you know they had a flight from stockholm in the morning and they land in toronto they're going to kitchener for a game just just the attrition part i would say it's uh it's definitely not as glamorous as i thought it would be going into it but at the same time it's it's a wonderful job it's it's a total blast you're at the end of day you are getting and pay to watch hockey and evaluate players. And, you know, that's something I love to do.

And the guys that hold those scouting jobs to this day, love what they do. And you're doing it around your friends. Like, you really develop some deep friendships doing it. And, but yeah, just the, I think the big difference from the outside looking in for me was just the commitment, the time, the sacrifice you got to put in to put the years that work in. Yeah, you started being a scout when you were very young. And, you know, whether it's, I get this from people often, I'm sure you get it even more

often. You ask people about getting into the game, working in sports, what would be maybe either advice or warning signs you would give to people who want to get into scouting? Is it just simply the time commitment? Is it just the vast amount of weekends you're going to commit? What is your constant message to people who want to try and get into scouting? Yep. Anyone that wants to get into scouting, again, I always try to encourage it. Again, I got into it as I started off as just as a fan of it, a fan of the draft, and I was able to kind of snowball by snowball my way into actually scouting the NHL. For a spire and people, I always tell them, like, try to be in the rank as much as you

possibly can, go to as many games as you possibly can. But obviously, make sure it's the right ones. And that's very specific to where you live. Like, you know, for me, growing up in Wisconsin, I started going to a lot of USHL games, a lot of college games, and I started to figure out, like, oh, hey, this league's having a big showcase. I should go and check it out. And just by being the rank, you start to network and get to meet people and you develop those relationships organically. And then also, I think you just kind of get better at your craft. You know, for me at a young age, trying to get into the NHL, I was watching games and taking my own notes. And I'm sure I look kind of weird going into Wisconsin Badger games, for example, and having like a notepad on me and taking

notes on guys like TJ Oshy and Jonathan Taves and then putting them in my computer. But it did help me develop my skill set. And then along the way, again, I was just meeting the right people at the right times and they're seeing my face over and over and maybe develop a little bit of a trust and a friendship there. So that'd be my recommendation to people is, you know, if you really want to be a scout, getting the ranks as much as possible, find which games that actually have value added for NHL teams, like, hey, they're going to come and watch their top prospects or, you know, they're watching guys for the draft, try to beat those games, and a lot of this stuff kind of can fall in the place from there. And then as far as like pitfalls things, I'm really thankful that Twitter wasn't a thing when I was

you know, in my late teens, early 20s when I was trying to get into this, because I don't know if I would have had the wherewithal to avoid the pitfalls I've seen with Twitter, I think. Such as? There's a lot of people we see on Twitter that, you know, they victory lap guys like, hey, I had this guy at 8 in 2020, and, you know, they do a victory lap on it. And it's definitely a turnoff for NHL teams and people in the NHL. And then I just think there's, the longer you do, this, the more you realize, like, it's very difficult what we're trying to do. I always say,

like, we're trying to predict the future of other human beings. There's a inherent error rate to that. It's a very humbling profession. The longer you do it, you're going to have some skeletons in your closet on guys you missed on. So to kind of rub people's nose in it that, like, hey, I got this one right. I was right. Or I'm smarter than the NHL. Not saying I was going to do that, but, like, I think it would have been tempting at a young age to engage in some discussion. on players, and maybe I wouldn't have handled that the right way, express myself the right way. So I would avoid, if anyone, Twitter's a great tool, social media is a great tool, you can get your name out there, your product out there. Don't give me wrong. I encourage people to use it,

but again, just use it wisely and with some humility. I was having a conversation with a director, he was a director for over 15 years, and he would, you know, often, you know, point to whether it's people in the public or people even on his own staff, who will be saying things like, oh, I got that one right or whatever. And he says, you know, well, Okay, you got that one right. Let me look at your whole list. You know, yeah, you, you were a genius. You got for saying that you thought that player was going to be good,

but would you have actually taken that player in that, in that spot where he actually went? What about the rest of your list, you know? Yep. You got one thing right, but your next 10 out of your next, whatever, 13 guys were bust, you know? So, are you really the genius you thought you were? what and because I think social media and the public draft discourse has changed so much in the last 10 and 15 years you know we're doing a prospect podcast right now we have two full-time writers and max writes about a lot of prospects just for our one media company that wasn't a thing in the NHL media sphere 10 plus years ago when you started

you know what what do teams how do you think teams really look at the discourse around the draft the public discourse, all the rankings and mock drafts. What does that really like from the inside? That's a good question. I think each team really does do their own unique work. And they are very, like we never allowed at Winnipeg, whether it's an individual scout or the team list, we never allowed our work to change based on what we were reading out there. But at the same time, I think to be a good scout and to make good decisions as a team, like you have to gather as much information as you possibly can. So any trusted source you have, you should look into it, research it, and then you can aggregate it how you want at the end. But so, I mean, obviously,

we use central scouting to help identify which players we need to go watch. You're always looking for like variation between your own list too. Like, man, I have this guy the second round, but, you know, Corey Prong, the athletic has them in the top 10. Maybe I'm way too low. I got to give another look. You're always kind of checking in on your own work and using, um, the public sphere is that. I think the mock drafts are always interesting because by the time you actually get to the draft, you have a good hunch of, I don't know, what kind of players you think you're going to have at your pick available in the first round.

And, you know, the scout, you get competitive. You want your guy. And so you start using the public list, Bob McKenzie's list, mock drafts again, and you're starting to figure out, like, man, is there a realistic shot this guy's going to get to us? So that's kind of how we use it. But, again, me individually, I would read a lot of the public lists out there. the ones I really respect, like, here's Corey, and then I would also just use that to kind of check in with my own work and make sure I'm not missing something. Or it could also even be

reading about something specific. If there's a guy like, well, I think he's a good skater, but Corey, you know, he grades him as a below average skater. Am I missing something? So you're always just kind of using the public sphere as to check on on your own work and try to make good decisions at the end as possible. I think that leads to, like, the obvious question of, like, where do you think the biggest gaps are in what we see is? There can be. be a public consensus on the draft, right, at times. And I think there can be an NHL consensus and they're not always a true consent. Like, they're, they can be very different. What do you see as

the biggest difference is how the public sees players and how the league does? I think when you're actually working for the team, so I've, you know, all three, two teams, you're really trying to project that player to your own roster, even though it's, again, it says it's a three, four, or five year investment, but you can't help but look at it and be like, okay, I think this player would be a first-line center for us or this guy that legitimately has a really good chance to be in a right shot, offensive defense, when they could play power.

You're always trying to project the NHL level. So sometimes there's definitely players like, the undersized guy that doesn't have dynamic speed, that is a tough profile to project into your lineup. He's got to be high end with like his offensive IQ, his puck skill, his compete level. You know, so I just think sometimes I see players ranked very high in the public level.

list where I'm like, man, you know, it's going to be tough to invest in a 5-8 player with average speed, even though he's putting up monster numbers in junior, whereas, you know, if there's an intriguing, tool-y defenseman who's got size and length, and he's a little underdeveloped physically, but he plays with his eyes up and he processes the game. The numbers aren't there, but so I guess the biggest difference is in the NHL side. I mean, obviously we value statistics, and I know some teams are more head to curve than others. in terms of the analytics, but for the most part, it really is the eye test and the projection. Whereas I think in the public sphere, I noticed guys that put up some monster numbers,

you know, maybe that gets weighed more heavily in that domain. You talked about, you know, being at the draft table and having these guys you want, to the degree that you can share any of these stories, was your biggest, like, draft heartbreak of a guy who went right in front of your pick that you really, really wanted? That would be Brock Besser for me. Yeah, that you're, we got really lucky with our first pick. we took Kyle Connor and we did not anticipate Kyle Connor being available. Like I thought, I think we all did.

This kid will be a top 10 pick. And then he started to slide. And I remember looking over at a scout was like, do we really think Kyle's any chance Kyle is really actually going to get to us. So when he did, it was pure, it was just, we were just ecstatic. And now we get ready for our next pick. It was in the mid-20s and, you know, the dust settles. And now we're starting to focus on that pick.

and a lot of guys that we liked began to go. But Brock Besser was still there. And I was like, oh, my God. Because, like, I spent that whole year trying to figure out who do I like more, Kyle Connor or Brock Besser. And not saying it was going to be my decision alone, but, you know, individually as a scout, you always want to, like, get it right. Even if it's like, hey, my team, we're going to take Kyle Connor.

If he's there, that's the guy. But, like, I wanted to get that one right. I had a lot of time in belief in Brock. And so that was not an easy decision to have Kyle ahead of Brock. but eventually I went with Kyle because of the speed, the pace. But it was really, anyways, yeah, it was really exciting to thought that, man, we might get both of these guys. And then Brock went pretty quickly ahead of us to Vancouver. And we still got a really good, nice player in Jack Roslovak, don't give me wrong.

But, yeah, Brock Besser was the one that it was crushing when he went right out of us. So you've seen kind of two sides of the spectrum there in terms of the caliber of player you've gotten from the U.S. into your organization. You had Kyle Connor, first round guy you had. had really highly rated, highly touted player. You can argue he's one of the most touted players ever from the USHL that wasn't a program kid. But you also had the late round picks, guys like Tucker Pullman and Mason Appleton that you got drafted out of the U.S. became NHL players.

How would you describe the differences in that evaluation process for those guys, the recruitment, and the overall making that selection in terms of building consensus within the organization? Yeah, really good question. Yeah, with Kyle, that's a good example. So at first round pick like Kyle, the amount of views that we get on those players is massive. I mean, even individually as a scout, for me being a U.S. area scout, so to speak, your priority is to know the whole draft, but your main priorities to really know all the top end guys in your area. So it's a lot of time invested in to go and watch Kyle.

And then also, it's not just watching him play. Usually for those guys, we go to their practice. And those, the character reference work on those players is extensive. It's a lot of time with the player. You get to know the families usually before you select them at that point. But again, it's all hands on deck. With that one, I mean, even our GM, Kevin Shevoldeoff, Chevy came and watch Kyle play. And he came to watch Brock play that year.

Obviously, director of crossover, assistant GM, everybody, the amount of time that your organization invest in the player that they select in the first round, even if it's a mid-first, like Kyle, again, it's a lot. lot. And, you know, the first round for a scout, it's, it's not as exciting as the late round guys for me because. But on the first round, would you say that on that pick, is there consensus in the organization when you're making that pick? Or will there even still be people who don't 100% agree with that pick at that? Year to year. It's not always, there's consensus on the, even the first round. There's going to be dissenting opinions on that. All we should have went with this guy or this guy. But by the time your team lists us together, like the process is so thorough and collaborative that it really is a team list and you know again everybody in that room like

you have your opinion you have your conviction and belief but again you also know in back in mind like hey i might not have it right and i'm looking around the room at some very bright guys who worked very hard to come up with their opinions on this this year too so by the time it's it really is a team list and you trust it um even though there is guys that have dissenting opinions on that now with kyle conner's again he's a guy that we had like firmly in our top 10 so by the time we got him at 16 or 17, whichever it was, there was no dissenting opinions at that point. That was an easy one. But far as the late round guys, I mean, I think that's where being an area scout for me in

Winnipeg, probably my favorite thing about the job was trying to find those guys. Tucker and Mason weren't on NHL Central scouting. It was just, you know, the ability to go watch games and, you know, the USHL fall classics, whatever. It's always fun when like a player grabs your eye. that isn't one of like the household names in the class. And then you kind of follow up on them throughout the year. And then you really get to know the young man.

That was the biggest thing with Tucker and Mason is getting to know them as people. Like not only did they have projectable things. Like Tucker was a 6-3, 200-pound defenseman, right shot, great skater, great athlete. Mason was a 6-2 forward that had an unbelievable brain for the game. And then getting to know both of them, like, their internal drive, their mental toughness. All the character stuff was like, wow, these guys are really special, special individuals. that I believe can overcome the odds of being a fifth and six-run pick and make it. But even then there's, it's not just a one scout thing.

Like we had, for both Mason and Tucker, there's crossover scouts to come see them. Those are some nerve-wracking days for area scouts because you advocate for the player and then now your assistant GM, your director cross-over scouts are coming to watch them. They might only see the player once or twice and you need that guy to have a good game. Sometimes it's a lot about timing. And then you also start paying attention who's at those games too. like you notice, oh, hey, like, there's a scout from Ottawa that they usually do a good job of drafting these kind of players, too. But those are the most exciting ones.

So, I don't know, say you draft a player like Kyle in the first round, you're probably going to have 10 to 12 guys in your organization watch that player. You know, the Mason Appletons of the world, it might be just three or four scouts. It's interesting how you describe that process right there. And I think some people who maybe don't know the scouting world may hear that and seeing that. That seems kind of antiquated in the year 2023 that you have this guy. one of your full-time professionals is really passionate about him. And your decision makers are only going to watch him once when technology is at the point right now

where it shouldn't be a massive inconvenience to watch a couple, you know, shift-by-shift blows of the guy, right? You know, basically it's about, you know, live versus video in that sense. Like, don't you think if you have an area that's got that's passionate, shouldn't your director, you know, be able to just watch a couple of games on video and then see him live and then maybe have a fuller picture? that, you know, how would you, but we also do know, I say that, and I see you smirking, you know, we know that different organizations have different organizational philosophies on video versus

live. We've seen that even post-pandemic where teams were scouting fully by video for one or two years and basically they just rolled back the clock right after we can go, I'll go back to work and live scout again like normal, right? Yeah, and I might be aging myself with that answer a little bit because like Tucker and Mason, we didn't have Instat at that point. So it was old school hockey TV. You have to watch the entire game. Or we had like someone in the office clipping shifts for us and that took time. But now, yeah, now with Instat, I mean, time seeing those things like viewings, that should not be an issue. It's been fun for me, joining CAA, having the ability now to outreach to different national organizations and kind of learn.

about their processes. And like you said, there's a lot of teams that have systems in place to try to avoid those situations where it's like, hey, we're passing on a guy or taking a guy because of one game. You know, let's really, let's use video to strengthen our amount of information on the player. And so anyways, but yeah, when I was. But that's probably a good point. Like, you know, how have you seen the scouting industry involved over your time working from what you start in the league to where it is right now? How would, what would you, how would you describe the maybe the transformational differences on the technology side. Yeah, definitely it's all been on the video.

I think that's been the biggest jump. Again, I mean, with SportsLogic, with Instat, we have such great tools now. I mean, at CAA, we're using those as well. And it's, I remember, like, you know, scouting before that, you would get a tip on a player sometimes. Like, hey, you need to go to Minot, North Dakota, to go see this guy. And, I mean, we're talking thousands of dollars in a weekend kind of gone. gone down the tubes just to go see a player.

And usually those, it's a quick report back that, hey, there's nothing here. We can just move on. But now with Instat, you can really use it to help you on your identification process. Like, hey, again, it's central flags a guy or Corey, you like a guy, or we just got, we heard about a guy. Now we can actually watch on video before we dedicate the resources to go see him live. But I still think by and large, the majority of the NHL live views really drive the process. I know for me, again, even now on my new end, whether I'm helping a player with servicing on the player development side or, you know, on the recruiting side, trying to identify guys.

Like video is very useful for me, but my skill set is more based on seeing a player in person. That's where I really feel like I get the clearer picture what the game is like. But I think it's going to be interesting because we have a lot of young aspiring scouts coming up who their skill sets can be more developed based on video because they have access to CHL TV and hockey TV and all this stuff and I mean the Big Ten network now it's not hard to see college hockey games or the NHL network like you can watch an OHL game on a weekend stuff like that I think you're going to have scouts that are more comfortable using video and they're I think it's really a scout to scout thing we've talked you know off the podcast about just football scouting

and you see like in the sport of football how many of the you know true NFL scouts just predominantly use video sometimes and that's not only because their sport only plays you know sometimes one or two games a week in terms of the actual days of the week but that's just what they were brought up on it I think you're kind of seeing that on the hockey side that a lot of people are starting he said are being brought up on video right now yeah and that's where like Corey I always tease you like hey you have this guy in your list you never even seen him play And then you quickly remind me, yes, I have. I've seen him in video about 20 times.

And then you remind me that Mel Kuiper, that's how, I love Mel Kuiper. And you always remind me that that's how he does his entire process. So yeah, I mean, some sports, football, you know, it was fun for me. I had a friend that scouts in Major League Baseball. I got to go watch him do his thing. And even when he was scouting live, he was collecting video on the pitchers and stuff like that that they can use back later. So I really do think that utilizing technology, leveraging technology and video, the teams that do it the best and the scouts that do it the best going forward, I think that's an important skill set to stay ahead of the curve on it.

Here's my question for you. When you talk about seeing Corey's list and, okay, maybe I should go look at this player again. What is a kind of team reaction like, though, when they see something like Corey's pipeline list come out where he's ranking, you're with the Jets and he tells you that the Jets pipeline is number 26? and all these guys you spent all this time on are bottom seven in the league or whatever. Depends on where you're at organizationally on the cycle because when we were drafting like Patrick Line High and we were on the cover of the Hockey News Future Watch

and Corey was putting us at one or two or three. If we saw Corey in August at the Alinka, it's all smiles. Hey, Corey, good to see you. But as we started to make our pursuit trying to win the cup in Winnipeg, you start training away some picks, trade away some prospects, you start moving down on those lists, guys graduate. And then they're not.

as exciting as fun to read. And even then, too, like, those are players that we've invested in at that point. You know, Corey's draft list, none of those guys are in your organization yet. So it's a little bit easier to stomach, like, okay, like, I don't really agree with him. But when it's a player that you went to bat for and your team invested a draft pick in, and now you're developing, you have that relationship with young man. And Corey's quite lower on him than you are. it's obviously you would love to get people pat you on the back saying hey awesome job

but at the same time I think you do have some reality like you know like hey we're in a different part you know we're in a different cycle organizationally and we don't have the best prospect pool right now because that's not where we're at on our arc here trying to win the cup but there's definitely reaction and every year before Corey's list comes out I ask him I'm like hey who's who's 32 when are you making that phone call to get ahead of it, but organization, you read it. And again, it's, it can be a source of enjoyment, but at the same time, if it's not going your way, you understand it's his opinion. And one thing with Corey is he works very hard. He does his work. It's not just guess work. And so

you know, like, hey, he put a lot of time and energy into this. You respect that. But at the end of day, it is just his opinion. Our third co-host, Chris Peters, is going to kill me if I let you keep saying nice things about Corey. So we got to put the Kaibosh on on that soon here. You talk about kind of how it's a humbling profession. But is there, like, what is the gratification level when you do see these guys five, six years later, and they're impacting the NHL team? I don't know how much you're even able to watch when you were with the Jets. How many Jets games a year could you even watch?

Live Jets games, maybe one or two a year. I actually went to more American League games. Like, I was lucky in my location, the Mantobo Moose came and played Milwaukee Admirals, the Rockford Ice Hogs. Those were easy for me to catch on a Sunday when I'm not missing, like, my actual job, which was the go watch amateur players. But, oh, the gratification is, I mean, you chase it year after year. There is nothing, I mean, this is one of the best feelings I've had in my career

when there was a player and a person that I really believe in, really advocate for, and you get group support in your organization, and you go on the draft, and you just, you're crossing your fingers and toes, hoping another other team drafts them. When it comes together and your organization is drafting that player that you have passion for, that right there in itself is such a rush. I remember during COVID draft, you know, we're downstairs. I was in my basement.

We're drafting like on Zoom, you know, having a Zoom call, drafted online. And my wife got to watch while we drafted Chas Luchas, the player that I had a lot of passion for, knew Chas really well. And, you know, I held my composure together when we first drafted. You know, great job, guys. And then as soon as like the dust settled and I could step away from my computer, I just started, like, jumping and fist pumping. And she's like, wow, I've never seen you so excited about something. So the gratification on draft day, if it goes your way, is. a rush that you chase year after year.

But then the ultimate one is you draft to the player. That relationship just grows and grows. And before you know it, again, you get to know the player, his parents. When you see it come together, like when the Mason Appletons make their NHL debut, it's honestly that turns into like really of emotional experience. It's, uh, I don't know if I actually cried, but you feel it in your chest. Like you really do it. You feel really proud and really happy for the young man.

So, I mean, I kind of bring a full circle to kind of the conversation about, you know, advice to those getting into the game. you know, you just describe, you know, the highs and, you know, the passion of that you came with drafting players, seeing them reach the NHL, getting NHL success in the case of Kyle Connor, NHL stardom, and all the work that goes into it all the time you invested. I think it would beg the question to maybe some of the listeners who are listening right now, why leave that? For me, it was the opportunity to go learn from people like Paperson, Jim, he,

Hughes, Jim Nice, J.P. Barry, Matt Williams. I mean, the group of people there. I mean, I worked with the Winnipeg Jets for 10 years and it was a complete blessing. I always thought that was going to be my dream job, but I am a curious guy. I want to try something new. Also, though, I wanted the opportunity to go, again, just learn from the best, get mentored, a new side of it. And then also, I will say about halfway through my tenure in the NHL scout, and I started to realize that the most rewarding part of this job for me was the really, relationships with the players, getting to know them as people, seeing that through. And it's kind of, it's built into your job as an NHL scout where, hey, great, we drafted a player that you believe

as a hockey player as a person, you advocate for them. We got them. It's built into your job just to go find the next one. Your job's not really like, hey, you know, continue to help this young man from a relationship standpoint. So that was tough on me. It'll be startling how many like, like, director's cross over guys, even like their oriars scouts, whoever I'll talk to him and be like, so, hey, you know, can I get your thoughts on how your fifth round pick is looked this year? And you're like, I don't, I have no idea. It's like, but you just drafted this guy last year. You're not even like a little bit curious how your fifth round pick is doing this year.

You're like, no, no, I'm on to the next class. Yeah. And so that was personality-wise. It honestly became tough for me. I did as best of a job as I could to stay in touch with them. But that really drew me to this, to the agency, Iowa CIA as well, is the opportunity to, I'm really enjoying it. It's not a draft-based system. Like, we get to do a lot of recruiting.

So you go see a player you like. You get to go right away, say hi, meet the family, you know, that process of bringing into CA and get to represent and work with them. But now also just that relationship just continues to grow. I get to help the guys try to achieve their goals. And so personality fit wise, I think the move has been really good for me. You talked about the challenge of trying to predict the future of human beings at age 18. you now long for the certainty that comes with projecting them at age 18 instead of much younger?

Yeah. So for us, like a lot of the recruiting is done like when they're 13, 14. And it's been interesting to me, though, is I had a former coworker in Winnipeg named Dan Schrader, a really good friend of mine that he walked away from the NHL on his own to go work for Dubuque and the USHL. And I asked him that. I was like, hey, how is it watching 14 and 15 year olds? And he said, honestly, all the stuff that you learned in the NHL, it really does translate to

this level. So even all the stuff that I was looking for in 17 and 18 and 19 year olds, now I'm just applying it with the 13, 14, 15 year olds. Such as. You know, for me, I've always been a big believer that the game is played through your eyes and your brain first. So I'm always looking for players that play with their eyes up, especially at the younger ages. If there's a player, I mean, some guys are just so physically dominant. They can, you know, they continue to do it level and level up. Like, don't get me wrong, those guys always exist.

But for the most part, I was always looking for those guys that, you know, they play the game with their heads, they're intelligent players, they process things quickly, accurately. I'm always watching the eyes of the player first. That's what I go to. And then I'm also looking for guys that have pox skill to execute what they're seeing. And then I'm looking for competitive, passionate people. And so that's what I'm still doing now today with CAA, if it's a player that on the recruiting end, trying to fill our birth here, so to speak, and grow those.

I'm looking for guys that are intelligent, play with their eyes. up, have good skill, and then they're competitive players with passion for it. And that was also what I was looking for at the NHL level. Now, what's fun for us is we get to just chase the best of the best. We're not tied to, hey, we have the 28th overall pick this year. So, you know, hey, do we draft a really risky profile or do we, are we okay drafting a third line center here? No, now it's like, you can get Connor and Besser. Yeah, now we're trying to find, hey, is this guy the best guy in his birth here in the country? Let's go after that player. and try to work with him.

And so for me, again, just watching the NHL even today, I think the best of the best, they're guys that can process the game faster than anyone and they have better skill than anyone. And those are the players that we're looking for. Awesome. Max, thank you so much for all your time today and good luck going forward.

Thank you. I'm a longtime listener, first time call, so this was great. Appreciate it. Great first call. We are joined now by Tom Malander, top prospect in the 2023 NHL draft. and one of the big risers out of the world U-18 championships.

That's where I want to start, Tom. Like, what was your experience like at the Worlds, and what did you feel like you showed? You know, I just feel like it was a very fun experience for sure. We had a great team, a great connection in the team. Everybody was friends with everybody, so I feel like we just had a really good time over there. You played at Rogla throughout the season and club play.

Really interesting program. I got to spend a little time in Angleholm earlier this year. What brought you there from? Stockholm? You know it's it's a bit it's a bit complicated. It was you know a big complications with AIK but you know we decided it was a maybe a best option to move. It's a club that a lot of young players have gone to and obviously they've produced some you know Marco Casper and Felix Nilsson this year. What did you feel like their development kind of brought for you or what do you think it did for your development?

Oh a lot a lot I feel like going to Rogley was endless opportunities. You know, just a lot of ice time. I feel like the players that were there were really driven, but also the same with the coaches. I just feel like, you know, it was a very, it's been a great organization. It's been handled like very good. And so that kind of brings us to where you're going next season. You're going to follow a very unique development path for a top Swedish prospect where you're going to go play college hockey as an 18-year-old. Can you kind of to walk us through that decision-making process with your parents, your representatives. You don't see a lot of premier European prospects go play college.

Sometimes mid-rounders, we've seen guys like Gustav Niquis, Carl Hagelin, guys like that, do that. Why that? Why boss university? Can you kind of walk through the timeline of that decision? Sure. So I guess it's got a lot to do with development. So, you know, Rogley being in the S-HL, a pro league, obviously their job, to win. And what usually can happen with

SHL teams is that they don't focus too much on the development of players but usually focus a lot on winning and sometimes that could be a little tough for younger players that don't really get the chance. So really it was about not risking having that and instead going for a little bit more safe developing path where we know that college focuses a lot on developing the players. Why Boston University? Well, you know, it's really been the only school I've talked to.

But, you know, the reason I started talking to them is because they have connections with my agent here in North America, Todd Diamond. And that's kind of how we started talking to Boston. And you mentioned in terms of Rogla the development opportunities. Yeah. In your conversation with the Abbott brothers, were there maybe not reassurances that you would get the ice time that you wouldn't be with the big club or you're just maybe worried it would be like 12 minutes a game, 14 minutes a game, not enough power play? Exactly. So it's, yeah, I mean, since it is a pro club, nothing is, you know, promised. And that's something you have to respect. And, you know, it's also about, you know, experience from seeing other younger players that have kind of gone, you know, into that little area where, you know, like grace somewhere, it's kind of, you know, getting loaned out to, you know, all Swanska clubs and stuff. Yeah, I mean, I remember, like Philip Rauberg, eighth overall pick, barely didn't get any. special team time with Shalefjia for two years.

But obviously he's in the NHL right now. He's a good hockey player. I wanted to walk back to the U-18s and not just the term you had there, but you're kind of a progression with the national team. You know, maybe when we saw you in August, even November, you weren't maybe a regular on the power play with the 18s. And by the end, you know, you're playing 25, 30 minutes at night. What was your, how would you describe your progression with the national team throughout the

season? and how would maybe you, was it, what role did the national team having your development? I think, I just think it's, you know, just working hard every single day, you know, it's very, very, you know, cliche to say, consistency is key. But, you know, if you keep practicing hard, you know, doing, you know, sometimes you don't want to train, but you do it anyway, you just being very disciplined about, you know, practice. and being professional outside the eyes, I feel like the opportunities will come to you.

What is it about your game that you think took the biggest improvement to go from maybe like a second, third pair guy on the team, to being their number one defenseman by the end of it? I'd probably say it's my offensive capabilities, and it's something I've focused a lot on this season, because I feel like it's been a little bit behind, contrary to my defensive play.

So you know that being both technical but also tactical parts of the offensive game. Your dad is a skills coach, is that right? Right. He's like a youth development coach for the club itself. Okay, for the club. Yeah. So what was that like growing up?

I mean, were you going through his workouts? I mean, he was my coach when I was younger. Yeah. So, you know, obviously it was a little bit of a hate-love relationship since, you know, a bit of unwanted feedback in the car ride. So, but, you know, that's part of it. But I think it's shaped a really good relationship with him. Yeah.

Because nowadays when I get the feedback, it's mostly only positive for me since I can handle in a way better way. Does he still send you? Like, hey, I saw this in the game. Yeah, sure, of course. You know, it's obviously not as much as back then because now I can handle a lot of my, you know, that on my own. But for sure, if I want to ask something, I know I can counter him. The first thing that I think people are going to notice about you when they watch you is you're skating. And I'm curious, like, where does your stride come from?

Is that something that's always come natural to you? I was terrible at first. I was really bad at skating. In fact, so bad that, yeah, I asked my father to just take, you know, a whole winter break from school to just practice skating. That's how bad it was. At least that's what he told me. So, yeah, I guess it did not come that naturally to me,

but we practiced very much when I was young. Back to the U-18s, you know, Corey alluded to it. You were playing 30 minutes, by that gold medal game. Would you have imagined that coming into the tournament? And what were those final minutes of the gold medal game like? How were you feeling? I was feeling amazing.

I know it's so fun to play. Like, you know, those tight games when every single situation matters, those are the most fun. You know, it's high risk, high reward and that's what everybody loves to play, right? So it was amazing. That tournament was kind of building up to a potential you guys versus USA gold medal games. And you guys had a great tournament, you know, you know, yeah, two amazing games against Canada, for example. And then going to that USA game, you knew about that big line that they had with Will Smith, Ryan Leonard. Yeah.

And Gay-Perrault as well as Oliver Moore on that team. What was it like going up against those guys? And what would, what would be your scanning report as the defenseman who was often asked to match up against the Will Smith line? Yeah. Well, you know, I'd say, I'd say they're very technical players, you know. So it's you know it was quick line very technical Not maybe the same way that the Canadians are difficult to play against They are you know a lot stronger along the boards you know kind of you know stronger game

But that's kind of where you have to always be on your tippy toes right Because you know anytime it can just be a pass that you you don't really see in its back door in its goal So I think we all knew that we always had to be on our toes when that line was in But I think we handled it quite well A couple of your teammates I wanted to ask you about. David Edstrom is another guy who I think really turned people's heads at that event. What was he like as a teammate? What did you see in his game?

I've always liked his game. You know, as a defender, it's very easy for me to feel when a scenery is good because we are, you know, we need the centers like really bad. So I can always feel with him. I can always trust him. I think he's good in the offensive and the defensive part of the game. And I think he just provides really good support for me as a defender. And then Axel Sandin Pellica, kind of your other, you know, right shot D in the top four, you know, how did you feel, I mean, what was your relationship like with each other? You know, you kind of shared power play responsibilities. Yeah. No, no, we, for us, it was just more about winning. We had a great time, you know, very good friends with him outside the ice. So it's been a blessing. Sure. I'm guessing, you know, between Axel, David, maybe Theo Linstein is possible, all you guys will be together. Maybe Otto Stenberg, all you guys might be together again on this upcoming world junior team.

Yeah, yeah. Of course. I assume that's something you look forward to. Yeah, pretty good after how it went. Absolutely. Awesome. I think that's everything we got for you, Tom. All right.

That was tremendous. I really appreciate it. All right. No problem, guys. Tom Lander. All right, we are back and we are joined by Gabe Perot for the U.S. National Team Development Program. Gabe Ferro, the new single season record holder for the U.S.

national team development program. Have you gotten sick of hearing that one yet? Not really. I mean, obviously, it's pretty cool having my name with those guys. It's just a real special season. for myself and the team as well. At what point in the year did you start to, okay, I could get this,

did it start to enter kind of your consciousness, I guess? Probably more towards the end of the season. Before the season, it's not really something that I thought I was to be able to do at all. And then, like, when my age in my age, my old was, told me that I could maybe get it and I guess it was kind of a goal for the second half. That line that you guys had,

will surpass Matthews as Mark 2 and then obviously Ryan Leonard. What do you think it was that maybe three of you work so well together and when did you first try that trio yeah I think me and Will play a lot together the U-17 year and a couple times with Ryan and then coming into the year we we wanted to play together and obviously we had a pretty special season I think we all brought something a little bit different to the line obviously how skilled Will is and how smart he is and with Ryan's all around games it's pretty special to play with those guys I talked to Dan

Mews on the phone a couple weeks ago and he told me there were times in the year where he would watch you try something and pull something off and you would have to kind of stifle his laughter to maintain some professionalism. What was it like to kind of have a year like you had and play with those guys where you could do those things that were almost laughable sometimes? Yeah, I think it's something I kind of always had

and I'll try to be as period as I can and I always watch Trevor Ziegis so I might not be as creative as he is but I think it's a guy I try to look up to. I think you were the last of the three guys in that line to commit to Boston College how big a factor was it in your decision to go to BC was to play with Will and Ryan again?

Yeah, so they had a pretty big factor in it for sure. I went to the BC campus, and I fell in love with the coaching staff, and I'm close with those two guys and the other VC guys, so yeah, they definitely had a pretty big factor. Family ties-wise, how big a role has hockey been in your life? Oh, yeah, it's been pretty much my whole life and for me and all my siblings. And my dad, it's something that we've really went into for so long. And I think my dad was my coach growing up for six, seven years.

So having him was such an advantage for me. What's the on-ice rivalry like with your brother? It's pretty big, yeah. So sometimes my dad rents ice. We play two-on-two. So last week before we left, it was me and my sister against Jacob and my dad, and we ended up winning out. And so we got the bragging race right now.

Your dad was known as one of the face-off aces in the NBA. when he was in the league. He has two sons, they both play forward, they don't take face off. How does that happen? I don't know. I think obviously he was pretty special to player at faceoffs. I guess I've gotten that a lot. That's weird that we're both wingers, but I try to take faceoffs every once in a while, like on the par play and in the O's zone. What if teams wanted to know about you as you've gone through all these meetings this week? What are the questions that they keep seem to coming up? I mean, a lot of them are pretty similar questions. They're trying to get to

you. Like a lot of guys, Montreal had a couple tougher ones, like animals and little things like that. And then I just had Colorado today and they had a couple of games, which was pretty fun. What kind of games? Just mind games. There was a game where you had like Kirchie's Kisses. You were trying to throw into a basket. There's a couple other things like a little slings shot games. So a couple of different games. It was pretty fun. When people talk about you as a prospect, I think it usually starts with hockey sense. I'm wondering if there's any aspects of your game that you think people miss when they watch you? I think my second best asset is probably my compete level.

I think I compete pretty hard. So I think obviously my hockey IQ is probably my biggest trade, but I think it's pretty good to try it in my own. I felt like there were a couple plays at the U-A teams where you really showed that, what turned into a goal for you obviously, but it starts with a big back check or a big takeaway. Is that something that you had been kind of keen in you wanted to really show teams? Yeah, I think it's something I really was kind of improve on and show that.

I can do it. When you're doing those types of things, it leads to more offense. So, yeah, it's definitely a lot of the kind of work on. And I think if you actually kind of see where your offense is being generated, a lot of it is coming at the net or in the hard areas, which, especially with a guy your size, you have to generate there if you want to score in the NHL. Yeah. So, yeah, if you look at the playoffs in the NHL right now, especially, you've got to be able to get to the inside. I think that's the biggest thing. So for me, I always try to go back door and try to school many different ways off rebounds and tips as well. Obviously, you're not the biggest guy, but I heard that that was a big point of emphasis for you at the program the last two years was putting on weight.

How much muscle did you put on? How much weight did you put on? And how hard did you have to work to do it? Yeah, it would work pretty hard. So I came to another program at 5-9 and 140, maybe a little less. And now I'm 511, 165. So lots of jumps there, but I think it also keep him through it. So it's pretty cool.

You don't have Ryan Leonard's body yet. No, not at all. He's pretty big. He's stocking. So natural? He's in the gym with you too. Sorry? Is that all natural for him, or he's spent on those minutes in the gym with you too?

I mean, coming on the program, he was like that, so I think he's probably a little bit of all. I think he's got those genetics, but he's also worked hard for it. You guys get so much coverage at the NCDP, but I wonder, is there anyone on your team this year who you felt like maybe should have gotten more attention than they did? Yeah, for me, a guy that I would say is Ryan fine. He's not the biggest guy, but he's so skilled and so smart,

and I was really happy for him when he got rewarded with that top. six roll at UATO.A.T. Wells. I think another guy I want to ask you about who maybe doesn't get as much attention, like your line mates or Ollie was Nelson's. It really felt like towards the end of the year, and at the, especially at the 18s, it felt like he was playing some of his best hockey. Yeah, he's playing great. Without him, we won one of that tournament.

I mean, he scored so many big goals for us at that tournament, and I think his game just chended out for it since the beginning of the year. Is there anybody that you look at in the NHL and say, this is who I think I play like, or who I try to play like? Yeah, like I said, I try to look at Zegers a lot, how competitive and how great it is. And then growing up in Chicago, I was like watching the fashion game. Obviously, that U-18 Gold Medal game with being Sweden,

that was a great game, one of the most compelling games. In junior this season, you were going up against Tom Wolander in against Sweden, who will be at BU next season. I saw there was like one play where you kind of gave you a little bit of a cross-check. So is it a little bit of a rivalry build in there between you two guys? I guess so a little bit. With BCB, the games are always

pretty fun to be a part of and I think with him is obviously a really good player so I'm excited to have more battles. Did you get to know Cutter Goatee pretty well being at the program at the same time, different teams I know. Yeah, I got to know them a little bit.

Any chance that they break up the golden trio here and Cutter slots out on you? Maybe, I think, we don't really know going in, nothing's really guaranteed, so if we get split up, we get split up, but we're just hoping to win So I think whatever I think is going to help this one.

All right, that's going to do it for us. Gabe, thank you so much for joining us today. And have good luck between now and the draft. Of course. Thank you, guys. Thanks, good. Okay, we are joined now by Dalabor Dvorski, top prospect for the 2023 NHL draft here at the Harbor Center. Delbor, let's start simple.

What's the week like been for you so far? Yeah, it's been really exciting. You know, I've been looking forward for this weekend for a long time, so I'm enjoying it. And it's exciting, like I said. Any interviews that have been notable for one reason or another? I mean, I have a lot of interviews. Yeah, somewhere is more special, but I mean, I think all of them were good. Looking back on your season this year, I mean, obviously playing in the All-Svenskin,

where did you feel like you grew and what did you feel like reflecting on your year? I think I've really improved my game without the puck and my defensive game. And I think I became just like much better pro player than I, was before the season. We saw you at the U-18s obviously and have a huge tournament there. I'm wondering what felt different at that level at that tournament for you or did it feel different? Yeah, well, it's always, you know, different to go down when you, for like from men and to go down to juniors, but I feel like we had a great team and I had really good teammates and, you know, we all helped each other. We had a great group in the locker room too. So it was a great

tournament. You obviously had, you know, a long season, start all the way back at the canceled world juniors that was rescheduled in emminton you know into your time with a iK the world junior team the u18 team what did you think was your best stretch of hockey this season um well i think my the u18s were like one of the best and also i've had pretty much good games with the a i k and elsevans kind and even into j20 there so yeah i've had i had more like good moments this season i think why did you feel the u8s were was when your game was at your best That's a tough question. I don't know. I just felt really good on that tournament. Like I said, we had also a really good team spirit, and it was just, yeah, it was really fun to be here.

What brought you to Sweden to begin with? Why did you decide that was where you wanted to play? I was nine years old back then when my parents and I went to Sweden because of hockey. And I've never actually really asked them, like, why it's, you know, we just went there and, yeah, I stayed. I think a lot of people will be curious, like next year, would you like to go back to AI? Do you know, is that something that's going to wait until the draft? I mean, I assume if you've been there for that long, you're pretty comfortable there. Yeah, I mean, that's something that, you know, the team that drafts me, they also probably say what they think.

And, yeah, we'll see after. People look at your game. Obviously, they see, you know, the production like you had at the U18 tournament and the offense, the skill. But I think there's also, you know, very smart player. Do you see yourself as more of an offensive or a defensive centerman? How do you look at your game? I definitely see myself as an offensive centerman with really good hockey IQ

you get a good shot but I think I'm a two-way guy so I'm good to defense too. Is there a player in the league or multiple players in the NHL who you think are realistic comparables that you model your game after? Yeah I would say uh John Tavares or or Ange Copitur maybe those two guys. Do you find there some similar between the way they play with like the all-round play and the skating stride? Is that why you picked those two? Yeah I mean they are both really good two-way centers. They're they have great offensive of instincts, good shot, good hockey IQ. And they're strong on the puck too. Slovak hockey's had such a strong couple of birth years here. Do you have close relationships

with any of these guys, Simon Nemitz, Slovkovsky, Samuel Hanzek? Yeah, I know we've known each other for a long time everyone because Slovakia is a small country, so we all know each other. And I'm just really happy. It's been going good these last few years. And I believe it's going just be better used to come. Did you ask either of those guys from last year about this process or for any words of wisdom for going through it? Yeah, I asked Philip Meshire, like, Shimon about Combine and how it is, and they maybe gave me some advice and just told me how it's going and stuff. It really feels like this is kind of a golden era of Slowback hockey,

especially at the junior level right now. I mean, you were on that Hulinkat team that had Slavkovsky, Nemich, Mesh, and Maxim Sturbach's going to go pretty high. What has it been like, you know, talking among the Slovaks and backing your home country, seeing all the success, that Slovakia is having an international hockey right now. Yeah, well, I'm really happy to see that. You know, also with the Olympics at Manson, Austin, the U-18s,

I really think the Slovakian hockey has been going forward, and I think it's going to be just better and better. I hope so, and I'm really happy to see that, like I said. Do you have a good relationship with Maxim Sturbach, who also, we think will go pretty high in the draft? Yeah, I have a great relationship with him. I've known him for a long time, and we're good friends. Awesome.

Dalbor, thanks so much for joining us and good luck with the rest of the week. Thank you, guys. That was great stuff, Corey. It was really fun to hear from those guys. What were some of your big takeaways? I think with Landers' interview in particular was impressive. I mean, you see of how well-spoken the guy is for someone who, you know, is a Swede born and raised in Europe. It reminded me and has reminded others who've talked to him this week in the interview process

of how Gabriel Landishcock looked at his combine and looked and looked, looked in terms of just how he presented himself and how he communicated, especially as a European player. Landish Gogg wasn't the flashiest player in the world, but he had good production. He had good, he looked good on ice tools, great work ethic on the ice, but it was also the off-ice and tannibals that appealed to teams. And, you know, it's hard not to see what Lander can do on the ice and how he presents himself off the ice at a premium position as not being highly appealing to NHL teams.

That was the first time I had ever heard him speak. I had never watched an interview of his before, and so that was my real first impression of him. And, you know, when he left the room, we kind of said, like, okay, like, if an NHL team really likes what this guy is on the ice, you know, that that interview would have probably sealed the deal for a lot of them. Right. And I think interviews and his personality aside, I think he's going to be a fairly early draft pick. But, yeah, it's all in combination now. You know, I still believe David Reimbacker will be the first offenseman off the board. the exact draft slot you know who knows that could be four five six seven you know i i don't know

and and don't hold me to that for the sharks fans and the montreal fans who are listening to this right now and and uh and may not agree that he might be in that discussion but i think he'll be very early and then shortly thereafter whether it's seven eight nine ten eleven i think i think will anders firmly in that conversation yeah it should be really interesting uh really good stuff today. So that's going to do it for us. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. Make sure you follow us on YouTube at YouTube.com slash at The Athletic. Right now, you can get a subscription to The Athletic for just $2 a month when you visit Theathletic.com slash hockey show. Talk to you soon.