The Athletic Hockey Show - The battle for most miserable team in Canada, the Maple Leafs seem unstoppable, way-too-early dream playoff scenarios, and more

Episode Date: December 2, 2021

Ian and Sean discuss Sean's piece about the battle of the worst team in Canada, and it appears the Senators may be running away with the title. Also, the Toronto Maple Leafs are dominating, are they for real? And yes, it's way too early, but why not discuss some dream playoff scenarios for this season?Then in "Granger Things", Jesse Granger suggests four players that you may want to grab now for your fantasy hockey team, Sean and Ian discuss potential 80+ point earners in the mailbag, and in "This Week in Hockey History", Patrick Roy's final game in Montreal, and Ray Bourque reveals his new jersey number.Have a question for Ian and Sean? Email [e-mail], or leave a VM at [phone]!Save on a subscription to The Athletic: theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back, everybody. It's another edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. It's your Thursday crew with you here. Ian Mendes, Sean McIndoo with you for the next 60 minutes or so ahead of this podcast. We'll have some fun with some down goes brown columns from this past week, including the three-team misery debate. That's what we're going to call it for Canadian teams. And we'll also have some fun with potential playoff matchups down the road. We'll also hit on some surprisingly hot starts for players like Matthew Shane and Nazan.

Hadry and we'll ask a question, and I'm sure Sean wants to delve into this one, are the Toronto Maple Leafs for real? Granger Things is back. Jesse Granger is going to stop by for a little fantasy hockey talk and maybe talk about which players we should buy low on. And this week in hockey history looks back at the night Patrick Waugh was driven out of Montreal by the Detroit Red Wings and maybe the greatest jersey reveal of all time involving Raymond Bork and the Boston Bruins.

But hey, listen, this is great to have you back. It's Mendez and McIndoo with you for the next hour. Like I said, you know what? Actually, now that I just say that out loud, we need to be fishing for a Thursday M&M sponsorship deal. Right? We do. Yeah. M&M.

That's right. Why aren't we doing this? Let's get our podcasting people onto this. And it's a, you know, perfect sponsor, M&M. It's exactly. And, I mean, we could go one further, right? You throw Jesse in there. You throw Granger.

That's now we're MGM. They got to fly us down to Vegas. And we got to do, yeah. I mean, we've got the bed MGM thing. But I think the hotel itself needs to get us down there. And let's talk this out. I'm going to pack a suitcase. I'm sure that call is coming.

Let's do it. And there's an M&M world in Vegas. Isn't there? Like a big M&M store? The synergy here is off the chart. Coming. This, yeah. It's perfect.

Yeah. And in fact, they're talking about what, the All-Star weekend in the NHL, that's the first. time for us to launch this. You send this down. MGM, M&M. See, it's coming. It's gold. It's gold. Hey, listen, I'm looking for any type of distraction right now. I'm not going to lie to you. For our listeners who may not be familiar with my work, I cover the Ottawa Senators for a living here as a kind of a beat writer. So they're dead last. Wednesday night, they lose to the Vancouver Canucks, who came into the game as a fellow last place team in their division.

and Ottawa gets clowned. What I didn't like about that on Wednesday, Sean, J.T. Miller scores a goal. And my point is, when Connor McDavid scores a one-on-four goal, you're like, oh, man, you've got to tip your hat. It's a generational player. You can't defend against them. When J.T. Miller does it. And J.T. Miller is a good player.

Like, J.T. Mellers are legitimate top six forward. I'm not dragging J.T. Miller. but when you allow J.T. Miller to look like Connor McDavid, what does that say about you as a team, as an organization? So as much as I respect your column this week in which you rank the three misery kind of rankings for the Montreal, Canadians, Vancouver Connects, Ottawa, and Senators, and you gave the nudge to Vancouver.

I kind of feel like we need to reevaluate the situation because the connects just rolled through Montreal and Ottawa with wins and the senator's fan base is like, what, what's going on here? Yeah, the J.T. Miller goal, and you nailed it in your column today, which I encourage people to read. But you know what to remind me of is, you know, have you ever been like at a beer league game? And before the game, they'll point to some guy and the other team be like, that guy used to play like Junior B or whatever. Like, he's good. So, okay, and then you just get completely clown by that guy.

It looked like that, which is not a great comparison for the senators when you're getting compared to my beer league teams. And yeah, it's been. And then we had the whole Matt Murray drama, which I still don't fully understand, but maybe the idea was, hey, we're going to shock the rest of this team awake. It doesn't seem to have worked. And the Canucks, you know, they were decent in beating Montreal. all, but they looked real good, beating Ottawa, and that probably says more about the senators and the Canucks. So, yeah, I might have to reevaluate.

I still think big picture, the obvious difference of those three teams is Montreal and Vancouver are trying to figure out, do we need to rebuild, do we need to tear it down, can we do it with this court? The senators have already been there, and the senators do have a lot of those future pieces in place that can still bring some optimism that you don't have in those other markets to the same extent. So big picture, I still feel like you could make a case. The senators are in better shape. But as far as right now in this year, when the rebuild was supposed to be over, it's clearly not. And yeah, I can absolutely understand where there'd be a lot of frustration in Ottawa right now.

they're on pace for 36 points this season at the 20 game mark. And look, it's only the quarter point of the season, so they could absolutely change that trajectory. But we're now getting into the conversation of, could they potentially end up as being one of the worst teams of the salary cap era from a standings perspective, right? Colorado, that one season that they had under 50 points, they're kind of the standard for bad cap teams.

But I think what's really frustrating is, is Arizona was actively trying, it felt like all the moves Arizona made this year were to actively potentially try and drive this into the ground to get Shane right or to just get rid of salary. That you're behind them is what's concerning. And now you're getting into conversations of, are we the worst team,

are we like the worst team of the cap era? And that's a dangerous place to be. That's all. Very much. Yeah. And, you know, I guess, you look at some of the teams and the running for that, Detroit would be another one a few years ago. I guess, again, if you're looking for optimism, you're going to point at that Colorado team that was so terrible and say, it didn't take too long for that to turn around. So, you know, maybe, you know, maybe we can be there too.

But, you know, at some point, and this isn't just an Ottawa thing, this is any rebuilding team. At some point, when do you become the Sabres? When do you become the team that just can't get out of it? use the metaphor a few times where a rebuild sometimes, you know, yeah, we all know what it's about. We all know you're going to finish at the bottom of the standings for a few years, collect those draft picks, shed the salary, all of the things involved in that. But at some point, you got to put your foot on the gas and see if the car actually moves forward and how fast you can go. And, you know, we've seen it with some teams.

It's just, you know, they have that moment. They say the rebuild's done. They hit the gas and they go and they start moving forward. And then there's other teams where they just spin the wheel. wheels and it turns out you don't go anywhere. And that's an awful position to be in. The Sabres are Exhibit A. There are other teams that are there.

I'm not saying the Senators are there quite yet, but this season has just been brutal. And it's brutal for the fan base because I don't think there were any Senators fans coming into this year saying we're going to win the cup, even though it was supposed to be year one of the run of unparalleled success that they were promised. It's a smart fan base. They're realistic. They knew that they weren't contenders yet. And probably a lot of them even thought that the playoffs were maybe a dicey proposition.

But at the very least, as a Sends fan going into this year, you felt like, okay, after all of these years of being close to the bottom of the league, we're going to get to watch some meaningful hockey in the second half of the season, at least. You know, we're going to at least stay close enough to the race that there's going to be a few nights where we're playing in Toronto or a Montreal. or something. We're going to have an eye on that wild card spot and we're going to be thinking about, yeah, geez, we need the two points. And right now it doesn't look like they're going to get that. It looks like it's the first week of December and they're already out of the running and to again shift your focus to the lottery odds and start thinking ahead and going, okay, who we're going to pick now. That big picture, maybe that's ultimately good for the team. They could still use a few more pieces, but it's just got to be so frustrating to a fan base. And this

isn't a fan base that got ahead of themselves. They were told by management the rebuild is over. So you can't blame them for having some optimism. And it just hasn't gone anywhere so far this year. Yeah. And my last point on this, because my God, I want to move on from this conversation. Trust me, I've been living it here. Is you never want to become Buffalo is a good example.

The Oilers of the early 2010 is another great example of you kept getting high draft picks, Taylor Hall, you know, R&H. Neil Yakopov, Eberley, and you just couldn't get traction with the group. And it just was like you couldn't surround them. It wasn't working. And that's what you don't want to have happen. You can't

just sit there and wait. And Edmonton's fortunes really changed when they got McDavid. That was what changed it for them. Right? Like it wasn't this great managerial decision that got them to where they are. They got Conradin McDavid. And that's often what happens. Like Pittsburgh was bad for a long time.

they got Crosby. Toronto was bad for for a few years and they got Austin Matthews. Like you need that sort of generational player to shift things and maybe that's Shane Wright for Ottawa, but I just feel like they've already been through, they've been through that. Yeah. And they don't have that guy yet. And Shane Wright maybe could be. I mean, he's sort of a guy that is viewed as potentially that sort of player, but not a lock.

Yeah. I mean, it's tough. And look, I always, you know, I'm not going to say I was a pessimist with the senators, but I did find that a lot of the optimism with this team sort of revolved around, hey, let's take all the young guys and project them to reach their ceiling. And then, hey, the lineup looks pretty good. And that's just not what happens. Even the senator has been pretty good at drafting and developing.

But there's always a few guys who let you down. There's always a few guys who don't reach that level. And I wasn't convinced there were enough pieces here. to warrant some of the optimism that you were hearing. But I also didn't expect that almost everybody would drop below what that ceiling would be or that everybody would be let down. And it's just, you know, that's kind of where you're at. I mean, Tim Stiltsil hasn't been very good.

You know, you keep waiting for Thomas Shabbat to take another step and it just doesn't seem to be there. And at some point, it all plays together, right? I mean, any individual player, is that on them or is that because of the team they're on? and what they're surrounded with. And it's, it's tough. And look,

we've seen teams flip it around, you know, even within a season. It certainly could still happen. But we can only go based on what we've seen so far. And in the first two months of the season, it's, yeah,

you put it perfectly. They're neck and neck with a team that is not even trying to win. That's a bad sign. All right. Now, let's shift our focus here, talk about the other team

that resides in the same province as Ottawa. That's the Toronto Maple Leafs on the complete opposite end of the spectrum of how they're as if we hadn't lost every senator's fan already. We're going, this is the only thing senators fans I want to hear about even less

than the team being bad. Is the Toronto Maple Leafs who had a historic month of November, which they were just dominant. My question to you is, look, you said last year when they lost in the first round of Montreal, you're like,

it was just different, man. You almost, your sentiment was you've gotten me to the place where you can no longer hurt me. I have no more emotions. I'm, you know, you were borderline suggesting that you were emotionally detaching yourself from the situation, which I think was the feeling for a lot of fans. My question to you is now as we've moved into December, and this team looks like I'll use that famous term juggernaut.

Oh boy. Now you've done it. Are you starting to reconnect? Are you ready to be tricked again by the Toronto Maple Leafs? Yeah. I mean, look, I have said all along with, this Leafs team, this season, none of it matters until the playoffs. And I stand by that. I mean, we saw how good they were in November. They could do that every month the rest of the way. They could finish with 120, 130 points.

It won't matter if they go in and lose in the first round again. The season will be a failure. So, you know, it's a tough year to be a Leafs fan because you're just sitting around and waiting for the playoffs. And you know that there's really not too much else to get excited about. Now, when they got off to the slow start, when they had that terrible game in Pittsburgh, I know there were a lot of Lee fans who said, I'm done, I'm checked out. You know, not that I'm done being a fan, but I'm done making this my Saturday night every weekend.

And, you know, I'm done following the day-to-day. I'm sure a lot of those fans are back. This team has been really, really good in November. And if there wasn't all the baggage and all the history, we'd absolutely be talking about them as potentially the Stanley Cup favorites right now based on how well they've played and the way that they've played. And they've been so much better defensively. They're shutting teams down. And for a long time in November, even though they were winning, the underlying numbers were telling you they actually were playing much better than the scoreboard was saying. And they weren't getting bounces.

And now the last week or so, they're starting to get those bounces. Now they're just running over teams. Yeah, they probably should be getting, I won't say more hype because it's the Toronto Maple Leafs. They never need more hype, but more consideration as contenders. But the baggage is there and the history is there. And you don't get to just hand-wave it away. So, you know, am I ready to get hurt? Yeah, I mean, when the playoffs come around, I'm sure I'll be there.

But I'm not going to be sitting there. And I don't care who they play or what the matchup is. I'm not going to be sitting there going, oh, yeah, this is the, we got it long. in, man, they just won the president's trophy. Oh, we're going to be fine. No, every single leaf fan will be watching from the opening face off of the playoffs with their eyes behind their hands and, you know, maybe one eye peeking out from between the fingers waiting for something to go wrong. And the question is going to be, how much is that attitude and that that, that mentality also going to be on the team itself, if at all, because we all know, it doesn't matter

how good you are. You get in the playoffs, you get a bounce here, hot goalie there, and you're going to run into adversity at some point. And, you know, does this Leafs team crumble when that happens? We'll see, does the fan base crumble? Yeah, probably. We've earned it. That's what we should be doing at this point. Yeah, and Toronto, by virtue of their, you know, lopsided win on Wednesday against Colorado, put themselves into first place in the Atlantic Division. And it kind of brings us to your, your other column that you dropped this week, which was the way too early look at potential playoff matchups. Way too early. Way too early.

It's December the 2nd. But I'm intrigued here because the top of the Atlantic Division is very top heavy in my estimation. There are three teams that are playing at an elite level right now. And that's Toronto, Florida, and Tampa. And there are scenarios in which you can see all three of those teams finishing first or second or third, my question to you is the scenario you painted or predicted was what about Toronto Tampa? These two teams have been at the top of their division the last, you know, five years and have avoided each other by by sheer fluke, by happenstance. Maybe they're on a collision

course. By the fact that one of them only plays one round every year. Yeah. But the fact, one of them only plays the Bruins. But if we're looking at this, I mean, I think you, like, if you had to choose between Florida and Tampa as a first round playoff opponent, I think you pick Florida, even though they might be the better team this year, but I don't think that there has maybe battle tested as Tampa. I don't know. Or maybe do you go, do you subscribe to the theory that the lightning, man, they got to be tired. They've played two straight playoff. Like, what's the advantageous scenario here? Yeah, okay, let me be crystal clear here, okay?

because I just, you know, the conversation we just had, people know who listen to this, I'm sure. I'm a Maple Leafs fan. I've been my whole life. I don't hide it. But sometimes I got to take my Maple Leafs hat off and put on my, at least theoretically, objective hat. And that's what I was doing here.

As a Leafs fan, I don't want any part of the Tampa Bay lighting. Yeah, absolutely. Give me the Florida Panthers. Give me a team that has its own playoff scars and, you know, its own history. and in theory it might be just as fragile. And yeah, I want that matchup absolutely any day of the week over the Tampa Bay Lightning. But stepping back, taking off the Holber glasses, just as a hockey fan, Leif's Tampa would be fantastic.

Not just because of the level of skill and the start players that would be involved, but because of just the storyline, the narrative there, you've got this Leafs team. like we said, nothing they do matters until they win in the playoffs. And if they don't win in the playoffs, all bets are off. They might blow the whole thing up. Put them up against the two-time defending champs. That's a perfect matchup. Nobody wants to see the Leafs finally win a playoff series, you know, against the Blue Jackets or some team.

You know, some also ran that they've got almost no history with. No, if it's going to happen, let's really do it upright and let's have them, you know, if they're going to slay the dragon to borrow a term, let it be a real dragon. Let it be something where they're really going to earn it. Or they go out on their shield and then who knows what happened. I just think that if you're a neutral fan, and I know when it comes to the Maple Leafs, maybe there's not a lot of neutral fans out there, this is the matchup you want to see. I mean, the drama, the storyline, and everything would be perfect.

And hey, by the way, if you're not a Leafs fan, you probably want to see them lose again. Tampa would absolutely be up to that task for sure. And so looking at some of your other playoff matchups here, I mean, Battle of Alberta is one that I think a lot of us thought we were going to get. And we thought we were going to get it a couple years ago, right? Yeah. Until the – Come close a few times.

We were hoping for it last year even in the Canadian division. And Calgary couldn't make it happen. But, I mean, it's crazy to me. In 1991 was the last time these two teams met in the playoffs. They've been in the same division every year since then. haven't met in the playoffs in 30 plus years. Yeah. And it used to be an annual thing back in the 80s and 90s.

So the other one I wanted to talk to you about is Rangers Capitals. I'll talk two more here. Rangers Capitals because that would seem like it would be a delicious playoff series if it came to pass. Absolutely. I mean, look, anytime you're talking to Rangers, the number one matchup we want to see is the eye. Islanders, which is another one that we haven't seen since the, no, I think 1994 it was the last time.

Doesn't look like that's going to happen with the Islanders this year or they got a long way to go to get back into the playoff picture. So to me, it's Washington. And look, I know that you go back to last year, you go to the Tom Wilson thing, the rag doll, the people getting fired. You go to the offseason they had. I know a lot of Rangers fans get their backup. And they say the changes were not because of one game. This was a team that got pushed around by a lot of teams, especially the Islanders. It wasn't a response just to the one YouTube clip that went around of Tom Wilson throwing Artemmy Panarin around.

And that's fair enough. But that clearly was a part of it. And, you know, the Rangers go and they kind of try to redefine their identity in the offseason, partly so that they could push back against teams like Washington and others. and then we go in, we see it at opening night. Remember that really heavily hyped opening night showdown, and it was kind of a dud. Like nothing happened.

We talked about it on the show, right? It was just sort of like, oh, you know, nobody, you know, Wilson didn't do anything or have to do anything. There wasn't really a lot of bad blood. And then you looked at the schedule and they don't play again until late in the season. Now, you know, regular season, you know, we can get a little bit of hype. There's going to be some bad blood, that sort of thing. but it's nothing compared to the playoffs.

And what I want to see is these two teams, seven games. You know, it's a totally different mentality in the NHL. When you're lining up, you're facing off, and it's period one of game one. And you know,

you got these guys for two weeks. So every hit you throw, every bit of damage you can do against these guys is going to help you win that series. It's not like the regular season where it's like, yeah, can get a weaker team two nights from now. No, I don't care about that.

In the playoffs, everything, everything you do matters. And I would love to see, because you know, Washington would try to play the bully again. You know, the Rangers would have to push back. You know, it's like I said in the column, it's not going to be the 1980s Patrick Division. Those days are gone. We're never going to see that sort of hockey again. But a little bit of bad blood, you know, if it's controlled and nobody goes too far. that makes for a great playoff series.

And I feel like we could get it here. On top of the already great storylines of, you know, here's this aging capitals team. We're all expecting the window to close going for, you know, one more run at a championship versus this young up-and-coming Rangers team and trying to learn, trying to, you know, figure out who they really are. I think it would just be a great series. And I would, you know, even though I'm no Tom Wilson fan, but give me seven games of Tom Wilson running around against the Rangers. and the Rangers trying to figure out how to respond to that. I think that would be great entertainment.

You know, the other team I want to bring up here, you said, hey, maybe a Minnesota Wilde-Wedipa Jets playoff series would be compelling and interesting. The Minnesota Wilder are in first place in their division. And I'll be honest with you, at the start of the year, they were one of those teams who are like, man, I don't know what they are. Like, it wouldn't shock, remember, they got rid of Porese, they got rid of Pruise, they got rid of a suitor.

It felt like they were maybe in for a little bit of an awkward stretch. these are not your, you know, are they an old enough franchise to say these aren't your father's Minnesota Wild? I don't think so. These aren't your older brother. I feel like the Minnesota Wild were your father's Minnesota Wild on day one. Like that's the thing with this team. They've always been that team where you're like, oh, okay. Jacques LaMere and like, no one's ever like pumped their fist and been like, I'm going to a Minnesota Wild game tonight.

And, you know, and I said, I remember one time I wrote that I said this, this team for, its entire history has been so middle of the road that their logo should be a highway divider. And when you throw a line like that out about a team, you got a brace for like the pushback. And all I heard from was wild fans going like, yeah, that's good. We like that. We're going to use that because they do it. I mean, it's the only team never had a Hall of Fame player in the entire franchise history, like not even a guy dropping in for a week at the end of his career.

you know, always between like 85 and like 102 points, you know, always in the place. Even the years where there were a couple years ago where, you know, we're like, wow, the wild are bad. And then at the end of the year, they've got like 85 points. And you're like, okay, they weren't that bad. They never draft high. They never go deep in the playoffs. So, yeah, their whole identity is there when you, I just did it when I, when we were talking about the, you know, the playoffs.

I had to reach for a boring team and Minnesota Wilder, the team that popped into your head. And so, you know, here they are now. And, you know, Kareil Kaprizov feels like the guy who kind of changed that when he showed up last year. And this year took, you know, a bit of a slower start. But they're fun. And I love that. I'm completely like, I would love to see Minnesota Wild fans just get to watch that, you know, thrilling, exciting team that really does.

matter and makes people like me stop going for the easy low-hanging fruit jokes because they don't fit anymore. Yeah, they're in terms of goals per game, they're a top five team. And that's not what you think of the wild. You think of them, like you said, just sort of this middling, mediocre. It's the Jacques-Lamere, right? We all still think Jacques-Lamere is the coach of this team. And they're fun. Is there any team that Jacques-Lamere coached that he didn't leave them with this reputation of just being boring for decades? I mean, I guess the Habs, right? He briefly coached the Habs, right, in the early 80s?

Didn't he? Yeah, I think he did, but I think that was before he had achieved his final form as the dead puck era's ultimate coach. Yeah, and look, I mean, they had, what was a year two or three, went to the conference final with him. And, you know, they were winning playoff games. one-nothing, which back in 2003 was exactly what you had to do in this league. So, you know, it's hard to argue, especially when your expansion team with playing that way. But man,

they're, they're fun right now. And, you know, the one thing that makes you a little bit nervous is you mentioned the Souter and the Paris A buyouts. And, you know, I still don't fully get the Ryan Souter buyout, I get maybe there were there were things we didn't know about or, you know, none of us are in the room. You look at that and a lot of us went, ooh, that's going to cause real salary cap problems. And you might be looking at the team now saying, oh, maybe that was overblowing. The real issues don't kick in until next year. It's one of those weird things with the way the buyout works. They're giving up like a good chunk of money.

It's a little under 5 million of their cap this year on those buyouts. But that goes to double digits for the three years. after. I mean, it goes like 12, 14, 14. It's a huge hit. So, you know, in some sense, maybe it feels a little bit like this is the year they kind of have to make a run because, boy, the next three years, they're going to be competing with one hand tie behind their back because they literally almost 20% of their salary cap is going to be tied up in guys that aren't there anymore. All right. As we mentioned earlier in the show, we're fishing for the MGM sponsorship. It's McIndoo, Granger

Mendez. MGM. BetMGM is, of course, the proud sponsor of this. They are the exclusive betting partner of the athletic. We bring them in for a little Granger things. What do you say, Jesse Granger? How's it going, guys? Hey, pretty good. It is good. Listen, we got a couple of kind of hockey

pool related questions for you and, you know, some betting questions. I have one that I've heard people talk about this, and I think it's an important thing to bring up. And that is, each day that passes, it feels like we might be getting closer to the National Hockey League and the Players Association saying, you know what, we're not sending our stars to Beijing, which I would imagine would drastically alter the betting

odds of the men's hockey tournament. So my question would be, could you potentially start to lay down money now on, like, Germany or something? some country that probably wouldn't be great if there was NHLers, but now if you remove NHLers and it's a more even playing field, can that happen? Or will we just see this tournament be completely taken off the books? Like how, like, what do we, what do we do here with the, with the Olympics around the quarter?

Yeah, I think it's actually, you bring up a great point. I think it's a good way to maybe get ahead of the line. Right now, Germany is plus 4,000. So 40 to 1 to win the gold medal. obviously because Germany doesn't have a whole lot of NHL players. And if Canada and the U.S. and Sweden all bring their teams, they pretty much have no chance. Whereas if suddenly the NHL players aren't there, Germany has a fighting chance. Another team that I would say maybe you're not going to get 40 to one odds on.

They're only plus 350 right now. They're the second favorite, but that's Russia or ROC, however you want to say it. And right now they're right behind Canada, kind of up there with Sweden in terms of odds, but I would think that if the NHLers are not able to go, Russia would become the immediate runaway favorites. We've seen it in past years. They have a lot of guys that are really good over in the KHL, and they have been able to put together gold medal winning teams without NHL players. So I do think that, yes, Germany is probably the long shot to try to get the most value on, but then there's another team that if you're trying to maybe pick the favorite without having to pay a

favorite price. I think you can get that on Russia right now. That's, yeah, I'm just, I'm just curious about how that, that, that, that all plays out. Yeah, I would have never even thought of that. I like, Ian, uh, thinking ahead there. Yeah. Because it almost feels like anyone who is in Canada, the odds move up and Canada drops significantly because they, they tend not to do as well in those types of scenarios. But definitely worth thinking about it. Yeah. Now, listen, uh, we are part of this, Sean and I and some of the other hosts. Me too.

I don't even remember. You're part of the office pool's fantasy hockey pool, right, Jesse? I'm barely a part of it. I'm somewhere down there way at the bottom. It's hard to call me apart. It's not going well for me. This is. I just checked my standings today.

I checked the other day. I am sitting in 2,430th place. Sorry, no, 2000. No, actually, if I've fallen, 2,731st place. But I'm kind of middle of the path. All right, Star. You don't have to come on here and brag. I'm above 2000.

I thought I was doing worse than I am. Maybe I'm in the top like 1,500, I think. Oh, wow. I think my number starts with before. So yeah, that was. But so here's the deal, though. Yeah. If you're like me and you're just getting crushed in this thing,

if people didn't see it and you're in the pool, they have opened up a one-time-only trading period where basically in December, you can swap out two guys. out of your roster and bring in somebody else. And, you know, I already went in this morning. I had Nikita Kuturov, for example, in that second box. Not going well for me. He's missing a ton of time.

I plugged in this kid. I don't know if you've heard of him. Leon Dressidal, he's doing pretty well. So I feel like that's going to make me a little bit better. But I still got one spot to go. So help me out, you know, like, who are the guys? Because, I mean, you can chase the guys who already have. have a lot of points, but you're not getting credit for that. It's from this point on. Who are the

guys that are going to outperform from this point on that maybe I can grab where I'm not just following the crowd because I want to gain some ground here. Right. Yeah. So we're looking at it from the hockey pool's perspective and we're also looking at it from a fantasy hockey perspective. We're a quarter of the way through the season and hockey's a weird game, right? I mean, Sometimes, like, goal scoring is so streaky. And sometimes you do everything right for 20 games and just the goals don't go in. And usually those types of players, as we've seen, the goals eventually come. And when they do, you want to be the guy who picked up that guy or traded for that guy right before he did.

To me, the number one guy who stands out is Kevin Fiala in Minnesota. And he's currently second in the NHL in goals below expected. He's minus four and a half goals above expected this season. It's kind of insane that he only has as, sorry, only has three goals. He's the only player in the top 13 in scoring chances in the entire NHL that doesn't have double-digit goals, and he only has three. It's kind of insane. He's such a good player. He's fast.

He plays with really talented players in Minnesota. That team has gone. It's almost weird watching the wild play. We're so used to them being a boring, like, one-three-one trap, like not exciting hockey to now. They're one of the most entertaining teams in all of hockey to watch. I love watching the wild. And I think Fiala is kind of a victim of he's been on the third line down there with Victor Rask. I think he needs to play higher than that.

But he is on that top power play unit with Carrillo Caprisov and those guys. And he's a guy who is a proven 20 goal score. He's the last two seasons he scored 20 plus, even last year with the shortened season. He still scored 20. He shoots around 12% for his career, which is about average. This year he's shooting 4%. I just look at that number and it's like there's no way Kevin Fiala is going to shoot 4% over 82 games. I think he's got the opportunities playing on that top power play unit.

He's going to move up in the lineup and he's creating the six. He's got the sixth most scoring chances in the entire league at even strength of 56. So I just don't see a way Kevin Fiala's numbers don't go way up from now. So whether it's in that hockey pool or if it's someone in your fantasy hockey league that is frustrated with Kevin Fiala and hasn't played well, He may even be dropped. Like, he's a guy that with three goals, like, I wouldn't be shocked if someone dropped him. He's a guy that I would definitely be looking to buy low on. And I know it's funny that you bring up that your view of the Minnesota Wild.

That's exactly our analysis. It's like this was the epitome of a vanilla franchise for a couple of decades. And now all of a sudden we're trying to rewire our brains to understand that they're actually fun and entertaining. Like, get out there and watch a Minnesota Wild. I know it doesn't sound like something we often say. There are a couple of other players that you have also, right, on your by-low list. As Sean and I kind of look at our, and you probably also look at your office pools team, and you're like, okay, is there somebody I can swap out here?

Who else you got for us? Yeah, another team, just kind of stay on that theme. Another team that has changed their identity. The Anaheim Ducks have gone from a bottom feeding team that is kind of trying to rebuild to maybe the rebuild is here. And the young players that they've got coming up, Ziegress, I just watched them last night, playing against the Golden Knights. and they are a fun, exciting team. And that top line in Anaheim, Troy Terry obviously is on fire.

He is not a guy you're going to buy low on. If anything, you're selling high on Troy, Terry. He's playing above his head right now. And Sam Steele has been playing really well on that top line. And the third guy is Adam Henrique. And the numbers have not followed for him, especially with the points that Steele and Terry have. You'd think Henrique would be way up there.

He's currently in the top eight in the NHL in high danger chances, but he only has six goals. This is a crazy stat. Adam Henrique has 45 high danger chances this season. That's 10 more than Connor McDavid, which is unbelievable. So a guy who's got 10 more high danger chances than Connor McDavid only has six goals. He's playing on the top line with two talented players that are producing.

He averages over two minutes of power play time per game, and he's a guy who's never shot below 12% for a full season in his entire NHL career, and he's really struggling to put the puck in the net right now. So I think Adam Henrique is due for a streak, kind of like the one Troy Terry's had, maybe not quite that crazy. But I think Henrique is a guy who's underperforming based on what he's doing on the ice. I love that stat, but I am going to argue, I think every time Connor McDavid touches the puck should count as a high danger scoring. Even if it's behind his own net, and he should just go ahead and chalk it up. Yeah, I think you're right.

Another guy who he's actually in COVID protocol right now, which may actually allow you to get him even cheaper, is Brendan Gallagher in Montreal. He's playing on their second line with Jake Evans and Artury Lakin. And he's, he's scored 30 goals twice in his career. He's been a regular 20 goal score. And he's only got four so far this season, despite being 11th in the league in high danger chances. He's also got 70 total scoring chances, which is a ton. And he's shooting 7%. And for guys like this, it's not just the, like, I'm looking at the goals below expected and who's getting chances and aren't producing, but it's also opportunity. And Brennan Gallagher, playing on a top power play unit with Suzuki and Tofoli that is really struggling.

And kind of like here in Vegas, a team that can't score on the power play, those goals are going to come eventually. It seems not going to go the entire season, you would think, with the struggles that Montreal's going through with the man advantage. So I think a guy on their top power play unit in Brennan Gallagher, I think he can, I think he's a guy you can buy low on also. Well, listen, Jesse, this has been informative and helpful when we're trying to kind of maybe improve our hockey pool teams midway through the season.

season. Appreciate the visit as always and we'll get you again for next Thursday show. Thanks for having me guys. Right on. Thanks. All right. Always great to connect with Jesse Granger. Why don't we open up the mailbag here? We got some emailed questions to us. You can email us to or at the athletic hockey show at gmail.com. The athletic hockey show at gmail.com. And just coming off that conversation with Jesse Granger, this is an interesting email question from Chris. Chris wants to know, hey guys, out of the following players who are basically producing at a point per game pace or close to it, who do you think is actually going to finish the season that way? In other words, who do you think can actually hang at the 80 point pace for the rest of the season?

The options here that Chris has, Chandler-Stevenson, Troy Terry, Mikhail Granland, or Chris Kreider. Is there one guy of that four that you're like, you know what, I could see that guy? coming up. Like, Crieder to me, Sean, he's on a 60 goal pace, which obviously is not sustainable, but I mean, he's off to a great start. Shooting about 26%. Yeah. I don't.

I mean, I think the clear answer here is none of the above, but we are not being given that option. So if I had to pick one, hmm, you know, I think the one I'm going to pick if I've got to is is Troy Terry not because I think he he can maintain the pace that that he's been on and even that he's he slowed down a little bit since he had that huge streak he's just

out of all those guys he's the one who's still young enough that you go you know what maybe we we don't really know what this guy is yet you know there is a chance we've seen guys you know he's he's 24 that would be a little bit old to suddenly make a big jump that in these days you know by the time you're 24 you've already been in your prime for a little bit. But he's not a guy like, you know, Chris Kreider, even Michael Granlin, where you got guys who are right around that 30 years old mark. It's very rare for somebody to suddenly make a leap there. I mean, Brad Marchion kind of did it, but he was even a little bit younger than that. And, you know, you look at some of the numbers on these guys.

And, you know, you're kind of looking at the one number. That's really a good one to look at if you're looking at someone who's got a lot of points, is the on-ice shooting percentage, which is what does everybody shoot when they're on the ice, not just them? Because obviously your own personal shooting percentage is heavily influenced by luck, but it's also your own personal skill set. Whereas if everybody on the ice with you is running hot, that's going to bump up your point total.

And both of those guys have got some pretty high numbers in that category. I mean, Granland's almost at 16%, which is completely unsustainable in this league, even for a skilled player. Yeah, Troy Terry is my pick out of those guys, I think. And then Chandler Stevenson, the issue with him is you're sitting there going, when does Jack Eichael show up, when does he get bumped down the lineup? And how does that play out? So I don't think I'd have him. I'll go Troy Terry if you force me to pick one of those four guys.

Yeah, I think Troy Terry, who's got 15 goals and 25 points, might be the best human interest story in the NHL this year, just kind of coming out of nowhere. But along those lines here, let me just ask you, you talk about guys, it's very rare for them to get up into this upper echelon at this stage or age of their career. I want to ask you about two guys in particular. One, Nazim Cadreys top five in scoring right now in the league,

29 points entering games on Thursday evening. You know, Nazim Cadreys has been a 30-goal guy. He's never produced points at this pace. He's closing in on, you know, point an ice. half a game. And the other guy's Matthew Sheen, where, you know, Sean, Matthew Sheen, I think we just assume, well, that guy's just going to go to

Nashville and slowly devolve into like a 37-point player making $8 million and whatever. Matthew Shane has 24 points in 22 games. He is in the, well, he's 11th in scoring now. He was top 10 yesterday.

But he's having this kind of bounce back season, 13 goals. Like, out of those guys, Is there either one of those guys that can sustain this? Like Cadre and Matt Douchain, a couple of guys that are north of 30 that we kind of figured that maybe their most productive days were behind them. Yeah, I mean, I think as far as sustaining what they're doing now, you bank on Matt Dushain because he has at least earlier in his career, he's had a few years where he's done the about a point of game thing. He's always been a guy who left you wanting a little bit more. you know, he was high pick and, you know, brought in as a potential franchise guy.

And he's never quite got there. And obviously, when he started bouncing around teams a little bit, it was easy enough to write him off. And then he signed to the big contract in Nashville, and that hasn't worked out. But, you know, could he be a point-of-game guy? Yeah, I think, you know, he's come pretty close to doing it a few times. that that's probably the ceiling of what we could have expected from him this year in a best case. And, you know, that's good for the predators because they're locked in on this guy, so they need something from him. You know, Cadri, a lot less likely to maintain what he's doing now because what he's doing is so much more than Duchenne.

I mean, he's forget about a point of game. He's, he's well north of that. And the interesting thing with Cadry is whenever you see a guy, especially a center who's got, you know, a lot of points. the first thing you go and check, or the first thing I go in check is I say, okay, show me his scoring log, because I want to see how many of these are secondary assists. Because, you know, yes, sometimes you make a nice pass that sets up another pass for a play, but a lot of times you see those secondary assists, that's some luck playing in if you got a guy who's got a ton of those.

And he really doesn't. You know, for him, it's been the goals, but the assists have come on the, they've been primary assist mostly, which is an index. that yeah, this guy's legitimately playing really well. And as a Leafs fan, I've got, you know, I've got some affinity for Nazim Cadry, despite the highs and lows of his time in Toronto. The obvious thing with him is you look at it and say Nathan McKinnon was out. Cadry played, you know, more ice time, more power play time, all of that stuff. I don't think he's, he's going to lose all of that right away, but McKinnon's back now and this is his team.

So I would expect Nesm Cadry to come back to the pack a little bit, but coming back to the pack could still be a career year, which at 31, and oh my God, it makes me feel so old to say that Nesm Cadre is 31, it would be a cool story. And then he's got to make it through a playoff run before we declare the season of success. Yeah, exactly.

Get through it without being suspended. Hey, I'm going to sneak one more mailback question in here because I'll be honest with you. Actually, I've never even heard of this. player who's apparently in the Hockey Hall of Fame, and that's Oliver Seabird. Yeah. Blake has emailed the show. Blake says, why is it that Oliver Seabird is listed in the Hockey Hall of Fame in the

goalie section when you visit the Hockey Hall of Fame website, h-h-o-f.com, but when you go to hockey reference or any other place, he's listed as a center. Now, I know that turn of the century, and I'm talking turn of the previous century, so like into the 1900s. There was a lot of confusion about, you know, positions and where guys played. But Blake wants to know, like, what's the deal on this Oliver Siebert guy? Why does the Hall of Fame have him listed as a goalie and everybody else lists him as a center? And he obviously was a significant enough player to get into the Hall of Fame.

Yeah. And look, I'll be honest. I wrote a book about NHL history and even I had to go and kind of dig into this guy. If the name rings a bell, it's probably because of Earl Siebert, who was a a player years later, this was his father. But even, I mean, if you know where Earl Siebert is, you're an old-timer. So as best I can figure out, Oliver Seabert was a forward, but he did play a little bit of goal early in his career.

So maybe that's where the issue was coming from. Maybe somebody just looked at his list of positions he had played and saw goalie on there. But I think it's just a mistake. I think it's the, he's clearly was inducted. and he never even played in the NHL. He predates that, but he clearly was inducted based on what he did as a forward scoring goals.

And he wasn't a goalie, or at least for any significant stretch of time. It's somebody at the Hall of Fame website has made a mistake there. All right, that's going to lead us perfectly into this week in hockey history. We'd like to wrap up the Thursday episode of the pod with this because it's a lot of fun.

I'm going to give you a couple of dates in hockey history that happened this week. A real quick one here. November 30th, 1968. I had no idea that this was an NHL record or who held it or that they were even looking at this thing. But Pittsburgh Penguins had a forward name Val Fantine. And November 30th, 1968, Val Fantine had an NHL record penalty streak run to 185 games. This week in 1968, Johnny finally took a minor penalty to end the streak.

I guess a double-barrel question for you. A, did you know that this was the record that somebody once won 185 games on the penalty? And B, is there any way a current NHL player could go more than two seasons without taking a penalty? Yeah, I mean, I did know this. The name was familiar. And I think it was because a few years ago, was it, was it Matthew Shane? Or who was it? Somebody had like a, Ryan O'Reilly maybe went to.

I think it was O'Reilly went like almost a full season without a penalty. And then they like, they took a penalty on like a face-off violation or something like that to end the streak. And people were trying to figure out who holds the record, what's the longest people have gone. I think it could happen these days. I think certainly, you know, the 60s were a lot closer to this current era as far as penalty levels and that kind of thing. Obviously, nobody was doing it in the 70s or 80s or even most of the 90s where it was

there was a lot more of the rough stuff and fighting and all of that. That was less of an issue in the 60s, although obviously it was rare even then for somebody to go a long stretch without a penalty. I feel like you could see it these days. The one thing that might trip you up is that, no pun intended, is that there's more penalties these days that are somewhat out of players control. like the you flip a puck over the glass that's an automatic penalty the face off violation we talked about you tap a guy's stick and it breaks you're going to get two minutes for slashing on that so

you know something like that you you'd have to have some really good luck on your on your side to avoid getting a penalty at all even if you were you know completely squeaky clean as far as the hook and and holding and it's more traditional stuff but i could see it i don't i wouldn't put that in my category of unbreakable records um it's a long shot for sure but i wouldn't be completely stunned if someone took a run at it someday. You know, Carolina fans are probably saying, you know, Jacob Slavin, right? Like he Yeah. He's kind of known for

for really not taking penalties. That is a defenseman. I just can't imagine how you could, yeah. Yeah. I think Kyle Wellwood back of the day, did he not have a season where he only had two pins or something like that? Yeah, yeah, he may have. And you're right, it was Ryan. So I looked it up. Ryan O'Reilly, how about this?

Ryan O'Reilly has had two seasons in his NHL career where he played 80 games. And ended up with two pins. Two different seasons, he had 80 games and two penalty minutes. Like I said, one of those was a questionable call where it was. Yeah. And he had had a, he had a street going. And I remember it being a being a thing. And, you know, he didn't get his money's worth. It's not like you cross-check somebody in the mouth to break the street. But yeah, I mean, there are, look, I'm, I'm in the hockey writers association. So once a year, I have to go

to penalty minutes and, you know, do the backwards sort so that I can fill up my lady Bing ballot. Exactly. There are guys who, even good players, but, you know, it maybe might be somebody who isn't even a first-line player. You know, you play 40 or 50 games a year and suddenly you're four seasons in and you don't have one. although I don't know. Some of these guys, I feel like if they got, the street got a little bit long, maybe they come up to the, you know, at the end of the game, just like, I'm going to, I'm going to at least try to grab a roughing penalty here

so I don't have the goose egg in the, in the PIM column. Exactly. A couple of other this week in hockey history. In fact, what I gave you the list of, hey, here's some potential ones, because that's how it works. I kind of look it up and I always leave it to you because you're so great with this. And like you said, you have a book on hockey history. So this is great.

And it's like you put in bold, we have to do this one. Yep. It's December 2nd, 1995, a date that will live. A whole fan base already knows exactly where we're going on this one. Yeah, December 2nd, 1995 is a date that will live in infamy for fans of the Montreal Canadians. That's the night that the Detroit Red Wings basically ran Patrick Waugh out of town and changed the trajectory for multiple franchises there. Right, Colorado, Montreal, you could argue Detroit. A lot of things happened on that night in 1995.

Yep. And one of the most famous, famous games, famous trades, famous images, you know, while with his hands up in the air, kind of play into the crowd as they're mocking him. That was a big way. And, you know, it's one of those stories where it's, it's such an irresistible story that it's sort of been molded in over the years into something it wasn't to the point where, you know, these days it, you know, it's, it's, it, it's, it, it's, it. The version of the story you hear is, you know, Patrick Waugh was a great goalie, and everybody loved him in Montreal, and he had one bad game, and it all fell apart. And it wasn't that. There had been issues for a little while with Patrick Waugh and Montreal, maybe wanting out, maybe them wanting him out, feeling like he had become bigger than the team. Even in that training camp, there had been trade rumors that he could be on the move, and he started off really slowly, but then was playing well. And then this game kind of came out of nowhere because, you know, He was playing well, and he was Patrick Waugh. You don't expect him to get shelled like that. My favorite part of the story, and I think we've talked about this before,

was that that morning, apparently, he goes, Patrick Waugh goes out to breakfast, his favorite breakfast joint. Who does he run into Mike Vernon? And who is the goaltender of the visiting Detroit Red Wings? And they get to talking, and Patrick Waugh basically says, man, it's rough here. I'm having a tough time. There's so much pressure.

I don't know if I'm happy here. And Mike Vernon, who had experienced something similar in Calgary and had just recently come to Detroit, says, man, maybe you got to get out of here because I love it in Detroit. It's the best thing I ever did to get out of that tough Canadian market. And then that night, the game happens. And, you know, Vernon's at the other end of the ice watching Patrick Waugh wave his arms around and then go to the bench. And he's just thinking, oh, no, what have I done? Because I think I just maybe talked this guy into quitting on the team. And he kind of had, which is a great story on its own, let alone.

when you know that Wa then goes to Colorado and we know that he later has another meeting with Mike Vernon under very different circumstances. But yeah, it's, you know, we'll never know what happens if that game doesn't play out that way. If Patrick Waugh gets the hook after three goals instead of nine, it's quite likely that he still gets traded at some point that season or the season after, but who knows?

And boy, if the Colorado Avalanche don't go out and get them, a lot of history changes probably for that franchise. What I don't think we give enough credit to, and I didn't realize this until I was digging, is that on that exact same date, December 2nd, but now we're going to fast forward, you know, basically by 20 years, December 2nd, 2017, the same two teams meet in the same city, Montreal and Detroit,

December 2nd, 2017. The result is pretty much exactly the same. It's 10-1, except it's for the habs. Like, how weird is that that on the exact same date, there would be these two lopsided scores? Obviously, nobody remembers the 10-1 habs win because it really, oh, man, they ran Jimmy Howard out of town or I don't know, whatever, right?

But it's crazy that on the exact same date that this would happen, right? Yeah, it's pretty wild. And I looked it up just now. It was Jimmy Howard and Peter Marizek were the goalies. ran them out of town. They, they're both not there anymore. And yeah, Kerry Price was in goal for Montreal. And, oh, boy, and who do you think led the, the haves in scoring that night?

You know what? With four assists. Oh, because I feel like did Paul Byron have a hat-trick? Yeah, that's a good pull. You're the only one with multiple goals. Four point games. Poor assists. Boy, oh, boy.

I'll give you a hint. He had a more recently, he had a, more recently, he had. a much more famous assist for the Montreal Canadians. A much more famous assist for the Canadians. This seems like it's a reverse. This is my embittered leaf fan talking here. Oh, Galchena. Alex Galchianic.

The giveaway in the... At four assists, but not... I was going to go by... None of them as pretty is that that... to set up the 2-0. Oh, man. Yeah, no, I was going to go with like Thomas Placanitz or somebody, but yeah, that that probably makes sense there on on gel chen yuck all right one other this date in in hockey

history and this is a really cool one okay especially if you don't know the back story of the history December 3rd 1987 uh the boston bruin's announce and kind of decide they're going to be retiring phil esposito's number seven the problem is Raymond bork who is a really good defenseman already at that time or was already about eight years into his career he was already wearing number seven and you know, so you're thinking how's this going to work? And, you know, maybe we let you take the story from there, Sean. How did

the Boston Bruins do and pull off, I think, one of the great jersey reveals of all time? Yeah, and it was a great, it was a great moment. And we've seen this happen in some other franchises where before a number's retired, it's given to another player. And usually

the player just switches numbers. I think the Leafs did that with James Van Reed's like a few years ago. I'm sure other teams have in this case what they do is they have Phil Esposito there for the ceremony remember there's been some bad blood between the Bruins and Esposito because of how he was traded in the 70s so there's been a reconciliation he comes out there and they bring him to Center Ice to raise the jersey to the rafters and at that point Ray Bork skates out wearing the number seven and the announcer says you know as no Bruin will ever wear number seven again and Ray Bork pulls

off the number seven jersey that he's wearing and hands it to Phil Esposito, revealing that Braybork is now wearing number 77, which becomes his iconic number. You know, a lot of people don't, don't even remember him wearing seven. But it was a great boy. And Phyllispozito did not know they were going to do this. You know, Bork kind of takes the jersey off and then kind of does this little 360 spin so that everybody can see it. And it takes a, it's a fun reaction because it takes the crowd a little while to figure out

exactly what they're seeing. And Esposito has a great reaction to it. And it's just, it was very cool. It was a great dramatic moment. It was a great way to honor Phil Esposito. And it was also very cool for Ray Bork because, remember,

this is like the Gretzky Lemieux era, to wear a double number was the, you know, kind of your sign that you were an elite player. And for him, it was almost like it, it was almost like Ray Bork being promoted into that upper echelon of superstars that he could now wear the double

number as well. So it was very cool. It ranks up there. I have two all-time jersey moments that I love. The first is that one. And the second is the night that Mario Lemieux came back and they lowered his number from the rafters. Oh, right.

Yeah. Which is, it was one of the all-time great goose bump moments. But those two are neck and neck for me. But yeah, it was just a very cool, fun moment. And, you know, Phil Esposito was not in on it as far as. I understand it. And you could tell that it meant something to him to see it. And if you seek out the YouTube clip to check it out,

because just the reaction of the crowd is, and everyone involved is very cool. You know what I did? I never understood. And I read a quote as I looked this up earlier in the day to kind of gets a little bit more background on this story. Because I remember it as a kid, but not that much of it.

Is Bork says, he's quoted as saying, he tells Esposito, like, this is your number. I never should have had it. And I'm thinking, And how, like, how would why did the Boston Bruins give Ray Bork number seven? Like, you know, Esposito was a great player for Boston, Stanley Cup winner, you know, record holder for goals in the season until Gradsky came along.

Like, why was that number not protected like number four? Like, like, why did Ray Bork get number seven? Yeah, I mean, again, it's because there was, you know, some bitterness lingering over the fact, you know, he had just signed an extension in 75, I think it was. and then Harry Sinden turns around and trades into the Rangers and Esposito had been public about not liking that. And I just think it's, you know, it was a little bit of a, I don't want to say necessarily spite to give his number to somebody else. But, you know, it'd be kind of like the Islanders giving 91 to somebody and, you know, get to Matt, to Matt Barzell and being like, here you go, this is your number now, it's your team as sort of a little, just a way to say we're done with the John DeVarra. It was kind of the same thing there. And then most of this stuff, time heals all wounds.

And so, yeah, I don't, I'm sure Ray Bork probably wasn't thrilled when he gets to his first training camp. And they give him number seven. But, you know, you take what you're given. But it was the right move. And it was one of those great things that could only happen in like the 80s, right? If it happened today, it would be spoiled on Twitter. You know, there'd be some social media post or whatever. But back then, there, you just, you hadn't.

no idea until you actually saw it happen. And then, you know, you saw it in the clips in the newscast that night. And it was like, oh, I get it. Okay, that, that is super cool. You know what? As we close out here, it just reminds me when Scott Niedermeyer left the devils. And he did so in less than ideal terms, right? Like he left as a free agent, went to sign with his brother in Anaheim. Lou Lamarillo, of course, is not, doesn't have the reputation of maybe being the most sentimental guy. And I think it was Mike Motto. One way to put it, yeah. Yeah. The defense,

he was like kind of a journeyman guy. But was it not Mike Motto who came into training camp like the next year or at some point shortly thereafter and he's got number 27 and he's like, I don't want to wear 27. They're like, now that's your number man. And that

like I don't know. Is that 20, like now I don't even know. Now I need to look this up. Did the devils retire? I think they did, right? I would imagine they. I'm Looking at the year after, there's a guy by the name of Barry Talixen who apparently wore the number 27 for the New Jersey devil. Was that wrong? Was it not Mike Monter? Well, no, because this was during the season. So maybe they gave it to him in training

camp and he was like either no or talk them out of it. But the only player to wear it during the season, at least according to hockey references. Wait a minute. Barry Talixen, a right winger who scored one goal in 20 careers. your games. But I don't know if he wore it for that game. What? Listen, Barry, if you're listening to this podcast, let's know what happened there. You got to get like that.

I mean, what are you going to do? You're not going to tell Lou Lamarillo like, no, man, I'm not wearing that. But, oof, that's, yeah, the devils have retired. Okay. Not near Meyer's number and as have the ducks. So he's one of the few players who's headed, had his number. retired by multiple. But now I'm going to look it up. Now, we can't, we can't leave on this cliffhanger. So we're going to, we're going to check and see other players that have worn

number 27 for the devils. But, okay, but I'm looking this up here real quick. According to hockey references, it says Ryan Graves has worn the number 27. That can't be right in New Jersey. Yeah, it says in 2021. That couldn't be right because it would have been retired then. I would imagine unless there was some. No, I think that's a glitch. Yeah, no, Mike, Mike, Mike, uh, Mike, uh, Mike Motto, right? Mike Motto is, he wore it for, uh, three years, it says. Yes, I, I remember that, I remember that being a big deal that, like, he didn't want the number,

but they were like, you're getting the number. And it was like to stick it to Niedermeyer. And apparently David Clarkson, as well as wore it, uh, for the, uh, for the devil. So I don't know, it's, it's always this weird thing, because I know, when you get into retired numbers or whatever, especially when it's a player where you kind of know it's going to be retired at some point, but it hasn't yet.

And I know some people say, well, let the next generation see somebody wearing the number or whatever. But yeah, you can get into some weird politics and drama around these numbers that you know are going to be retired or that aren't. Like, you know,

the Leafs for the longest time didn't retire numbers. They honored them, but they kept them in circulation. But when Wendell Clark left, you know, because he was number 17. that's a common number. Every team's got a guy

wearing number 17. Nobody ever wore that number. I think it was partly because they just knew that, you know, don't make some rookie in training camp put that on and skate around with that

because it's, that would just be game over for them as far as the fan base. Oh, man. Well, listen, at some point, this is a future down goes brown column. Best jersey number worn

by multiple guys for the same franchise, right? Ooh, not bad. Yeah. That's not bad, right? In Ottawa, I think, Alexei Yashin, Jason Spetsa, and now Drake Batherson of all war number 19. Like, it's, you know, pretty good. So anyway, that's some food for thought for you.

Future column idea. Bork Esposito is going to be tough. I don't know. Oh, yeah. You're not knocking off Bork Esposito. Like, who, like, boy. Like, I'm having. And I'm sure there's somebody else who, you know, before that has, uh, uh, war, too.

Because back in the old days, number seven was, uh, was a good one. So, yeah. Oh, exactly. But yeah. No, I like it. In fact, anyone's got any suggestions. Let us know. Let's see if I can get the listeners to write my next call them for it.

There we go. The interns. The Down Goes Brown interns. We can all be interns. Let's do it. Talking about. All right. Listen, we'll leave it there.

I love the fact that this last segment ended up with us dropping out. What is it, Barry Talixen? Yeah. Barry Talixen reference. Barry Talixen's driving to work right now going, in a second. That's me. I'm Barry Talixen. Yeah.

Oh, man. Listen, this was a ton of fun. Thanks for this. We'll look forward to to doing it again next week. And a big thanks for everybody for joining us here. I will get you again next week.

Like I said, you can email us your questions at The Athletic Hockey Show at Gmail.com, The Athletic Hockey Show at gmail. You can drop us a voicemail too. We'd love to hear from you 845-4-459. And if you're not a subscriber with us,

you can join us at theathletic.com slash hockey show. You can get an annual subscription for just $399. A month.