The Athletic Hockey Show - The courage and leadership of Luke Prokop on a historic day for the NHL and the sport of hockey.

Episode Date: July 19, 2021

Pierre Lebrun and Sara Civian from the Athletic NHL are joined by Bayne Pettinger of C.A.A., the first openly gay agent in the NHL and Brock McGillis, the former OHL goaltender, and the first men's openly gay hockey player. The panel discusses Nashville Predators prospect Luke Prokop's historic announcement, coming out as a gay athlete in the sport of hockey.Sara, Pierre, Brock and Bayne look at the impact of Luke's statement, the support of his junior team the Calgary Hitmen and his NHL team the Nashville Predators. Brock and Bayne marvel at Luke's leadership and bravery and what it means to future players moving forward. The panel also acknowledges the work still to be done, with coaching, in the locker room and on the ice, as hockey strives to indeed make the sport for everyone.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm Sarah Savin, along with Pierre Lebrun from the Athletic NHL, the special edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. Today is a historic day in the NHL and in the sport. Nashville Predators' 20-20 third-round pick, Luke Procop, makes history, officially coming out as the first openly gay NHL prospect. Luke has changed the hockey world for the better today, and it deserves to be celebrated. There has never been an openly gay NHL player, but the Calgary Hitman defender and alternate captain will attend training camp

for the Predators in Nashville. Today on the show, Pierre and I welcome the NHL's first openly gay player agent, Bain Pedinger, and Brock McGillis, the first openly gay men's professional hockey player. But first, let's hear from Luke and Pierre in their sit-down with TSN. You're a first-round pick in the Western Hockey League, a third-round pick by the Predators and the National Hockey League, and you achieve those heights while still carrying a heavy burden. Is the sky the limit now for Luke Prokhov?

I hope so. I think being my true self and allowing myself to go to the rink every day, not having to care if someone knows or someone doesn't, going to the gym and being able to focus on getting faster and stronger, it's only going to make me a better player, and it's only going to make me more confident on the ice. So I don't know how good I'm going to be. I'm so excited that I'm going to be able to be myself as a person.

And as a hockey player, I just can't see where this is going to take me. Pierre, what did it mean for you to be trusted to tell today's story? And can you kind of take us through the process? Yeah, I'll tell you what, Sarah. I'm just, like, I hope people realize when I say this, I'm so honored that, you know, Luke's camp approached me to write this story. I mean, I was so excited when Jerry Johansson, the lead NHL agent, in four Luke Procop called me a number of weeks ago.

And I got to say, I really poured my heart and soul in this story and wanted to get it right, and I was nervous about that, and wanted to get all the right voices in it. And, you know, it meant a lot to me just before we taped this here that Luke's dad reached out to me and thanked me, thought the story really told Luke's story. And that's what this is about. this is not my story just because I wrote it it's Luke's story it's his day and I just wanted it to be

as close as perfect in terms of what he would want out there and I did my best with that but it's just amazing to be part of it I'm just humbled by it what do you think this means for the hockey world I mean I think our guess will have a better sense of that than me in terms of Brock and Maine here

but you know I hope that we get to a day where this doesn't have to be so hard. And I'm disappointed already, but most of the comments have been so positive, Sarah, in our comments section and on Twitter, but there is the odd person saying, well, why is this even a story? Well, look at what Luke's gone through. Listen to what process has been like. Yes, it's been very positive, but he was carrying a burden. and the feeling, you know, when he talks about getting off the phone with the national predators

and feeling as free as he's ever felt in his young life, that's why it's a story. It's huge. It's hard. And I think for the hockey world, of course, the way Brendan Burke's legacy still being felt, the leadership of Brock McGillis, Bain adding to that path last November, every time is important for the hockey. world, I'm just going to say it, and I don't care if I get criticized, we're one of the worst sports where we're lagging behind. And this has to be a more comfortable space for people to play the sport and to feel comfortable. And that's what I'm hoping continues to come out of

this. And there's perhaps nobody more qualified to discuss this than Bain and Brock. So without further ado, let's do that. Brock, it's not an exaggeration to say Luke will save lives by sharing his story. And you've cultivated a community promoting communication with hockey's LGBTQ youth. Can you explain why this moment is so huge for hockey and the world at large? There's still the idea that as a man in men's team professional sports or men's team sports or boys team sports that you can't be gay and play the sport you love. there's still this idea that homosexuality being gay makes you less than in those locker and settings in the sport especially hypermasculine macho tough sports like hockey so every time

somebody takes a step forward every time somebody has courage to share and show who they are the way Bain has, the way John Olson has, the way Zach Sullivan has, it leads to a shift in perception and ideas of human beings. And has people realized that they are more than, you know, you can be gay and play a sport. You are more than just your sexual identity and you're more than just your sport. Yeah, well said there, Brock. I think, yeah, I think it's huge, you know, the more, what I've found is humanizing it. you know, if you're able to tie it and put a face to it, you know,

everyone goes, oh, I don't know anyone that's gay in the game. And, you know, now I've, you know, I try to spread that with my circle. And now, you know, the Western Hockey League is going to, you know, have a player in the Nashville Predators. And I think it's, it's really humanizing it. And, you know, the more that come forward and live their true self, which is, you know, I remember when I came out, people say, congrats. You're like, well, I didn't really do anything.

You know, I'm just telling my truth. And I think that's what, what Luke's feeling today is, you know, just a big sense of relief that now he can walk around. and not have to think about it every day and not have to, you know, he can just be a hockey player and, you know, and your sexual identity orientation doesn't matter. And there is still that stereotype in our sport that, as Brock said, you know, people think he can't be gay and play the game.

But I think with guys like Luke and, you know, Brock and myself to help humanize it and put a face to it that you can be successful and be gay. And that's all we're trying to do with, you know, humanizing it here. there was such a vivid picture in the story where he's banging on the steering wheel and crying just tears of relief did this story bring you guys back at all to when you came out and are you comfortable kind of reflecting on those stories rock first yeah i mean uh bain and i have both been you know engaged with luke for a little while so uh for me and i was actually put in touch with luke through bane so i'm very grateful that he did that um for me of course it brings back those memories and and sharing with him my experience in coming out and sharing, you know, the day of and how it felt. It's a surreal moment. There's so many different levels of emotions that go through it. Obviously, I was at a different point in my life than Lucas. And I think I said in Pierre's piece that I'm kind of envious. He gets to live the majority of his life as a gay man.

openly game in. And that weight off your shoulders, that burden is life-changing. You know, I used to drive around at night and cry, and I hated myself. And through major junior hockey, through professional hockey and youth sport, I wanted to die almost every day. And, you know, so to have that burden lifted and now see the support you have and the network and community who will support you and help you through that and protect you.

you know, it's, it's just life-changing. And the day of, I remember, I was, I'd gone back to school. And I was sitting in a classroom when the story broke. And I told the prof ahead of time that it was coming out. And five minutes into class, my phone was blowing up so much. And I was emotional sitting there that she canceled the class and let everyone go. And I just sat in this room. And then I didn't know what to do.

and I just like drove around. I went into the gym and I sat on a mat and cried. And like I just, it was happiness, sadness, uh, relief, uh, knowing nobody could use my sexuality against me anymore without, you know, behind my back, knowing that I was now empowering myself to live as myself. It was the best day in my life.

Yeah, reading, reading his story this morning definitely brought back some flashbacks for me as well. You know, my family group chat was already going nuts this morning, you know, saying, you know, it just sounds that I'm getting kind of emotional talking about it just because mine was only six months ago, right? Reading those stories about him telling his family and the relief, it, you know, it definitely brings back flashbacks to me. And for him at such a young age to be able to do this, you know, I went through my 20s. You know, I was 33 when, when my story came out, for him to do this at such a young age and be such a champion of it, you know, talking to him like Brock said, leading up to. I was honored that he reached out to me through his agent, Jerry Johansson.

And, you know, I introduced him to Brock there and Curtis Gabriel and a few others, but it just goes to show the network, you know, like anything. You want to lean on people that have done it before you, you know, and mine was very recent just in November. You know, the way that Luke did it with Pierre, with a story in the athletic. It just, it brings back a flood of emotions for me, too, on my day. And I know exactly what Luke's going through today, like Brock said, you know, relating back to my story. It was, it was insane. The more as soon as it broke on Twitter there. I remember, you know, you try to get back to people.

I did a follow-up interview with Pierre on TSN, but it's just overwhelming. I remember I had to take a nap. My body just kind of shut down. You're just emotionally and physically drained. Because you're shedding this, this shadow that you've lived with your entire life. You know, so for Luke, this will be the best day of his life. You know, and I'm envious of him, too, that he's able to do that at 19. If I had that courage, you know, knowing how what I know now, you know, with the reaction to my story and how the hockey world has embraced me, I would have done it years ago.

But so, you know, to see Luke, you know, do this today and I just know exactly what's going on and how he feels. So, you know, all the power to him. Yeah, it seems like you guys are a great support system for each other. And what does that feel like to you to be able to give support to someone? or you can remember you were in their shoes. It's kind of surreal. Because I remember when I came out and there was nobody. You know, I was sitting there all alone.

I dealt with the media requests. I dealt with the hate, the positive by myself. And it was such an overwhelming feeling initially, getting all the messages and support and everything else, but it was also very lonely. and to be able to hopefully give him a network and be a part of that network and give him support whenever he needs it. I mean, there's been calls at all hours of the day.

And knowing that he has people who have the lived experience within it is I hope it makes him feel safer. I hope it helps take some weight off his show. shoulders. I hope it makes him feel like he will never be alone in this space the way I kind of did for a long time until people like Bain started coming out until, you know, I started to see these Zax Sullivan's and the John Olsons and engaged with them. Like it was a very lonely, lonely space. And you know, one thing that struck me, Brock and Bain in this story is that when Luke said to me, and I don't know if

You know, Luke just sort of said it so naturally, too, when we talked about the support that he was getting from both Brock and Bain, he said, you know, I want to be there for them, too. Again, 19 years old. And he said, you know, I want to make sure that they can call me and talk to me on days that they need that. I just, the leadership that Luke broke up, I mean, he has a day on his Western Hockey League jersey, and you want to talk about leadership and character. Like, I just think this young man is amazing. And, you know, for him to even think of saying that, but he's lucky to have you guys because he needed you guys to get through this process, but he wants to be there for you guys too.

I thought that was very much. Yeah, the leadership he's shown already, you know, I remember it started with a, you know, a couple conversations with Brock, but we had one, you know, a Zoom with him, I think two days ago, where we just, you know, told it we went over how to prepare for the big day. And by the end, we're throwing jokes at each other and laughing, and we've never even met, you know, but it just goes to show that, you know, and I feel bad that Brock didn't have anyone there

because I remember when I phoned Brock, I said, hey, I think we chatted for an hour. You know, I've never met Brock, you know, and now I consider him a friend. And it's just, it's, it's the courage and the leadership that he's showing, you know, hopefully just resonates through the players, through the Western League, through the Nashville predators, through everything. And I'm just, you know, it's amazing what he's doing and how he's going about it. And, you know, nothing but love for him. There's really a bond that we all share, a kinship that only we will probably understand.

And I think that is so powerful and it creates a closeness and like a feeling of that's family right from day one. You know what I mean? When Bain reached out to me, it was like, okay, what can I do for Bain? and I know those people would do anything for me. And that is lifelong. That doesn't end the day you come out. That is support that whenever being Luke, any of the others need it, I'm there and I know they're there.

Back to the point about how you hope this reverberates through the predators and through the NHL, Pierre, I was struck by Boyle's point in your story where he's just saying, this is huge. and the way that he called him a leader and he was just kind of acknowledging and embracing the moment. He wasn't just tolerating it, right? Like that kind of struck me. Yeah. And, you know, Brian Poil first reached out and left a voicemail for Luke and then spoke to Luke and then said,

are you okay if we have a larger call? And then it was David Poil and, you know, a number of other front office people. And they all took their turn to tell Luke that they were supporting him. And David Poyle was proud of him. And again, that's one of the reasons I led with that moment of all the beautiful moments in this story because there were many of them. But I led with that moment because there's no question you could tell that Luke was wondering how that call would finally go. That he's telling his NHL team. And he talks about slamming his steering wheel and excitement after he hung up, you know, tears coming down his eyes,

yelling at the top of his lungs and saying that he had never felt this free before. Like, it's amazing. And, you know, listen, there's probably a lot of different ways that call could have done, depending on which front office it is. You hope not, but let's just be realistic. So, yeah, I think that was huge for him. Again, he had another step in this process, and that went well for him. That was in late June.

And I think that really started. I mean, Brock and Bain can probably attest to this more than me because of all their conversations with Luke. But I get the sense that really accelerated the next, you know, conversations that Luke had, again, in his orbit with people in his life and continue to tell people in his life. Brock and bang, can you think back to when you were 19 and how has the hockey world changed and how has it stayed the same? Yeah, I mean, I just, I put myself in at his age. If I was, I remember playing, I'm here in Victoria right now playing hockey for my local junior team. There's no chance I was even ready or I don't even think the culture was, you know, like, but now in today's day and age, you know, it really comes down to it. And Brock and I talked about it, you got to love yourself first, right?

And you kind of got to stop caring what other people think. And that's really the big turning point, I think in, not only in hockey coming out, but in coming out in general. You have to start saying, screw it, this is who I am. I'm unapologetically gay. And I don't really care what other people think. You know, I didn't have that when I was 19 at Luke's age. So for him to come to that realization, and like Brock said, for him to be living his life, you know, fully now at 19 and open, you know, I do think hockey's come a long way.

You know, I'm not obviously in the locker room as an agent, but, you know, from what he's told us, you know, his teammates and his brother and a few, you know, people around the league or people he trains with. You know, it's like mine. It's not like he just one day made it. It's not like he's coming out today. He's coming out publicly today. He's had a support network around him like Brock and I did, like like, like, you know,

myself with my family and, you know, your close friends and you're, you know, then you slowly expand your circle. Then it comes to a point and he even said it in the article and it really resonated with me where you're tired of walking into a room and, you know, oh, I've told that person, but I haven't told that person, but I think they know it puts your whole mind in a pretzel and to be able to just get it out there. And like Brock said, you know, no one can use it against you negatively. You own your story. I think that's, I hope, and from what Luke said, that hockey, you know, especially the locker room with the players, has come a long way. And I'm,

I'm happy that that's the case. To, you know, add on to that and couple of what Pierre said, I'm a big believer that I hate the word acceptance. I really do. And I feel that only you can accept you. And when you do accept yourself and learn to love who you are, you're not going to care what anyone else thinks. So to combine both like Pierre's previous answer, I think he would have came out regardless if Nashville had a positive or negative response.

I think he's that special of a human being. I think he's gone to himself to a point where he loves himself more than what he cares about what other people think of him. In terms of being 19, bluntly, I was, you know, drinking daily. I was suicidal. I struggled with being gay in a sport and having to lie about it. the homophobic language in locker rooms, you know, the belief system within the culture, not seeing anyone that was like me anywhere. The only time I heard the word gay or fag in a locker room was, you know, people putting

each other down. Does that still exist in locker rooms? I'm not going to pretend it doesn't because it does. It does because I have thousands of kids who come to me yearly who are quitting hockey because of it, which makes what Luke did even more powerful. Because I believe that youth, I've spoken across the OHL, I've spoken to professional teams, I'm speaking with the Saginaw spirit tonight.

I believe that the thoughts of younger players in hockey today, men's players, has evolved, but their language and their behaviors haven't caught up to their belief system. So in order for it to be a safe space, that language and behavior has to evolve. It has to become less of a heterosexist space where everyone's presumed to be straight. They have to stop putting each other down using homophobic or homonegative language. It was so bad.

Like I said, I was in Sue St. Marie and I was like driving around contemplating death. and that was a regular occurrence for me. That happened for years. I drank daily. I was constantly injured. And the fact that he is out frees him of that. And you made a great point, Brock, in the piece when you said to me, you know, first round pick in the dub, third round pick in the NHL and sign. And he achieved all those hockey heights while still.

carrying that burden. You know, and I've talked to Luke about this, how, you know, he said he was having some of his best summer sessions that he's ever had in terms of on the ice. Well, because clearly, I mean, there's a feeling there that has allowed him now to, when he steps on the ice, to be uncluttered. Is that fair? I mean, that seems to be what he's saying. Completely.

I use an analogy. It's like putting a hundred pound weighted vest on. and trying to play. You know what I mean? You're lugging around all this emotional weight, all this psychological burden daily, trying to go to the rink, wondering, you know, you hear that language.

And I know he's heard it. We all heard. I still hear it at rings. You know, knowing that exists, knowing that the coaches might use it, knowing that, you know, opponents' coaches might use it in players. and carrying that around daily, that's hundreds of pounds on your shoulders.

And to be able to be that good and to be able to put that in a box and be able to put it away and go play is a testament to, you know, I've always heard people talk about mental toughness and how a gay player might not be as mentally tough or physically tough. That mental toughness he showed to be able to play and achieve those things with that, you know, emotional baggage, that emotional weight is a testament to how mentally tough he is. There's a level of toughness that is unmatched in Luke Procop. Finally, what would you tell a coach right now that's listening to this and wanted to promote a more inclusive locker room? I mean, Brock and I are working on a few side things, but I think, you know, it's, it's education. You know, it's humanizing it.

Like I said, off the lead there, you know, to put a face to it, you know, to put, okay, here's a, you know, break down those barriers of look. Oh, you can't be a third round signed pick and be gay. Well, Luke Procop just, you know, went against that. You can't be a hockey agent, you know, and have some of the biggest stars and be gay and work for a national firm. Well, I broke that one down. You know, you can't be a men's player, you know, in Europe and be, you know, a goalie and and be openly gay and an activist. Well, Brock broke that down, you know, so it's taking these strides of people stepping up and being

themselves. And, you know, for a coach, you know, maybe there's, there's, I'm sure there's some Calgary Hitman fans, you know, that are big Luke Procop fans. And, you know, the fact of who he, what is sexual orientation is doesn't matter. And I think the more that we can humanize it and, you know, get out in front, you know, we've already, and just to go back to Luke, he's already said he wants to join forces of Brock and I, like he's got a million things on his plate, but he really wants to push the needle too for acceptance and for, you know, he's already thinking about, you know,

how can he help, you know, those, I think you mentioned it in the article, those kids that maybe, you know, the youth that may be coming up and they're 10 years old and they go, oh, now there's a player that has come out, you know, maybe they saw my story and see Brock's story. And it's just, I think it's education and humanizing it is how. I know, I know Brock's working with some O HL team, so am I. And I think it's just getting out in front and telling the stories and stopping the language and, you know, just getting out in front of it and really putting a face to it. And, you know, I'm just so, so honored to be part of this with Luke and for him to have his big day and, you know, the lead-up chats that we had with the National Predators players and just everything.

It's a strange, like emotional. It brings back so much for me right now just sitting here and I'm going to text. him later. I bet I won't hear from him for about four days because he'll be so busy. But just, uh, just, uh, just kudos to him. And, uh, just so proud of him. I can't wait. You know, Brock and I were already talking about getting him out to Toronto to, uh, actually the three of us meet in person. And, um, you know, with, with COVID getting behind us. And I'll consider Luke a friend now moving forward. And it's just, um, it's a great, great day for for him, the community, the hockey world and, uh, just super proud to be a part of it in any,

any sense. I think for coaches, my big belief is hockey and Pierre said this earlier, is that hockey's behind. And I agree. And I don't want people to get defensive when they hear that. Because, yeah, we're behind, but we can catch up. And I believe hockey people, for the most part, are really good people. Except, and beyond that, I think they'll rally.

when they recognize that these are issues, you know, racism, sexism, homophobia, ableism, you name it, when they realize these are rallying points the same way they rally around cancer, the same way we watch the entire hockey world rally around Humboldt. When they realize that these issues need the type of rallying because it's causing trauma and death and everything else amongst youth, go rally. We just got to show them the way. And what I think to what being said is, I think we need to first humanize these issues, have people within the culture who have lived experience within it, share stories to humanize it for players.

And then from there, educate. And then at that point, I think they start to get it. I think they start to realize. And for coaches, the first step is language. Shift the language of your locker rooms. You know, it's not enough today. And then beyond that, when you do hear it, step up and say something, whether it's players, whether it's, you know, I was working with athletes when I retired in suburb, in northern Ontario. And kids knew I was gay before I came out.

They had found out because I was out in my private life. And I had a kid, kids were working on a track with sprint coach and one of the younger players, sprint coach said, you have 10 more 200 meter sprints. One of the younger players said, this is so gay. I'm one of the older players who's already in the OHL, immersed in the culture, maybe he didn't come from as progressive of a household, looked at the younger player and said, we don't say that here.

Give me 50 push-ups. And that was something my athletes adopted and then took it to their teams, took it to their peers at school, took it with them, and then kids were doing push-ups all over the place. One 15-year-old hockey player was on FaceTime with the young woman, and she said to him, wants hang out and he said, no, I can't have practice. And she said, that's so gay. You never want to

hang out with me. And he looked at her and said, give me 50 pushups right now or I'm not talking again. And they both got down to 50 pushups. These are two people I've never met and will probably never meet in my life. So to me, one of the big steps is that humanization and then recognizing and then actively being anti-homophobia, stepping up and speaking out and speaking out. And and not being afraid the way a guy like Curtis Gabriel did. He's had no real ties to the community and he stood up. It's like, this isn't cool. This isn't okay.

You know? And the more that that happens, the more that coaches recognize, the more that gatekeepers of the culture, because there's a lot of, you know, those hockey guys who are uncomfortable with this. I mean, I asked the GTHL to go into their league and I had the local NHL team, you can figure that out real quick, offer to come in with me. And the GTHL said no. You know what I mean? So we have gatekeepers at every level of the sport that need to start to

open their doors and allow people in to shift in. And when that happens, we'll have a safe space. So I'm asking coaches to make that happen. Thank you so much, Brock and Bain, for your insight. We're going to let you guys go now. Really appreciate it. it. Thank you. Thanks, guys. Thank you both. This is an amazing day in hockey, but like Brock said, there is a long way to go and need to actively

promote inclusivity at all levels of this sport. Pierre, do you have any final thoughts on this historic day? You know, my thoughts and where they begin, which is I hope that Luke Procop feels amazing right now. And you know, I think that

was starting to happen from what he was telling me in the interview and the two interviews I did with him for both the athletic and TSN that as he kept telling people in his in his private life and then friends and then other friends that he was really starting to feel you know the the burden you know come off his shoulders but again I just want to stress this 19 years old and to be willing to come out to the world and in part as he described because he hopes that it'll impact other people who may be struggling with this. I just can't believe how courageous he is at his age.

I mean, not only that, but how well spoken he is in explaining his thoughts. And I was 19, I could barely put four words together. And so, I don't know. I just, I'll tell you one thing. I'm a big ProCop fan and can't wait to see how his career now plays out. Absolutely. It's such a testament to his leadership too. And I'd like to say just for those who might be hearts in the right place kind of questioning why this matters, right? It shouldn't matter or be whatever. It just think about the visual of him banging on his steering wheel and just the release of the tears of joy. This matters because it is who he is. And he gets to be who he is without the weight of the world on his shoulders. And again, to read this article, it's this is who I am. Predators, prospect. Luke Procop comes out at the athletic by Pierre LeBron. Thank you, Sarah.

We are done, but we've got to do the pod promo. A busy month for the NHL continues, with buyouts, trades, signings, and now the expansion draft. Join Ian Mendez and Haley Salvin Tuesday for the Athletic Hockey Show Live. A preview of the NHL expansion draft and the NHL draft with guests Corey Prondman, Scott Wheeler, John Vogel, and Jesse Granger, available on the athletic social media channels at 12 p.m. Eastern at the Athletic. Check out our comments section for each podcast episode at the Athletic app and rate and subscribe to the Athletic Hockey Show on Apple. If you aren't already a subscriber, go to theathletic.com slash hockey show and receive a subscription for $3.99 a month.

For Pierre LeBron, I'm Sarah Severe. Thank you, Sarah.