The Athletic Hockey Show - The Detroit Red Wings are undefeated, Justin Davis talks toxicity in hockey culture, Torts’ Philadelphia Flyers are also undefeated, and more

Episode Date: October 17, 2022

Ian and Julian kick off the week with a discussion about the 2-0 Philadelphia Flyers, and come up with a new segment idea in the process, and are then joined by The Athletic’s own Max Bultman to talk about thus far undefeated Detroit Red Wings, the excitement level around Hockeytown, the plan for Sebastian Cossa, Dylan Larkin contract talks, and more.Plus, author and former player Justin Davis joins the show to talk about his new book “Conflicted Scars” and discuss why he wrote the book, realizations about the toxicity in hockey culture, why taking a stand against the culture is difficult for individual players, and more. Get a 6 month subscription to The Athletic for just $1 a month when you visit http://theathletic.com/hockeyshowSubscribe to The Athletic Hockey Show on YouTube: https://bit.ly/3BKz27u Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show. Welcome back, everybody. It is your Monday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show, Dean Mendez's Julian McKenzie with you. For the next, we'll call it an hour or so coming up. We've got a couple of guests on the Monday episode of the podcast, Justin Davis, former hockey player, going to drop by to chat about his book, Conflicted Scars.

I'm looking forward to that conversation. We'll talk a little bit about his path to, you know, where he is today and his connection to Akeem AliU and, you know, it's an interesting story so Justin is going to drop by Max Boltman, the red hot red wings. Come on.

Like, you know, the other guy I was thinking we could have got Julian. Yes. What's Charlie O'Connor doing right now? Oh. Flyers are 2 and 0. Oh, what? They're 2 at 0?

You know, when our producer Chris Flannery said, hey, you know, maybe we could grab a writer this week, I guess my mind immediately went to Boltman because Detroit's in the same division and having a great start. But I gotta tell you, the Philadelphia Flyers, you want to talk about teams that you didn't think would be 2 and 0?

How good is it to be a Philadelphia sports fan, by the way, right now? Eagles are undefeated. Phillies are in the NLCS. Sixers are a legitimate, you know, East contender. And oh, yeah, the Flyers are 2 and O. The Flyers beat teams that, I mean, I think those teams, Vancouver and New Jersey, probably expected a little better of themselves.

I mean, I've heard people mention the Devils as a sleeper pick. The Canucks might be a team that sneaks into the Pacific Division playoffs. So those teams are probably feeling a little crappier now. At the expense of the Philadelphia Flyers, a team who, like, we talk about guys with beats who I think, like, man, you know, being in, people look at me in Calgary. He's like, man, you got a really good team over there. They look really great. Or, man, you're covering, or Edmonton, like the Edmonton or it should be really great.

I would love to see the carnage that could go down in Philadelphia with John Tortoella being there. And like, I think Charlie O'Connor is one of the most, is one of the coolest gigs just off the fact that the potential of craziness that could happen. I did not think they would be too well at any point during this season. I would love to know how he feels about that. Maybe every Monday on the pod with you and I,

we crown a Jack Adams winner of the week. Oh, I like that. It's torts right now. It's Torts. He's the Jack Adams winner of the week. Man. Look, I'll say this. John Tortorella, for his curmudgiveness,

is a good coach. I'll say this about John Torella. I will disagree with how he views certain things with regards. when he got he got everyone all in a tizzy about Conner and David and playing defense and Trevor Zegris and all that. Like, like he got, he got, as a media guy, like, if you're ESPN, you say, thank you for your services. You get people to talk about hockey and getting people bad at your opinions. One thing I could never say about John Tortorella, I could never question that man's coaching credentials and how he is capable of somehow getting the most out of teams that probably

don't need to be doing all that well. We saw what he did in Columbus. We don't need to get into Tampa Bay. We know he won that chip there. But like, man, good for him that he's 2-0. He gets the Tampa Bay Lightning tomorrow. But like, good for the Flyers. They're a lot better than we thought there would be.

It's two games, though. But good for them. Yeah, everything is couched with the, it's two games. Unless you're San Jose and you're 0 and 4, then it's like, oh, damn, it's four games. No, no, no. Hey, listen, we, we don't want to, you know, beat down on the bottom dollars.

I want to ask you, though, you had your first taste of a regular season battle of Alberta. Young Cub reporter Julian McKenzie gets on Highway 2. Makes his way up. Now, you drove from Calgary to Edmonton, I assume? I did drive the three hours up Highway 2. You were absolutely right. Does you pull off at Red Deer to get something to eat or what happens?

I should have done that. I should have done that. I drove the whole three hours and by hour like, by two and a half, I was like, this is a boring ass drive. But I survived. I just did the drive to Buffalo. Because for me,

to fly from Ottawa to Buffalo is just pointless. Like, you can't go direct. So I'd prefer to drive. So I did a great, I downloaded podcasts, including, I want to listen in on Haley Salvean.

She's doing with Gentilly, the Friday show. Oh, sorry, they call it the Friday show because they record on Thursdays. They run it on Friday. That was good. What'd you do?

to pass the time, the three-hour drive. I have like a playlist of just music that I like to put together. You strike me as a yacht rock guy. Am I right on that? What's yacht rock? What does that mean? I have no idea what that even means. Exactly why I knew you were a yacht rock guy.

What the hell is? I need you to look up yacht rock at some point. I'm going to do that right now. Yot rock. How do you not know what yacht rock is? yacht rock is a Okay, I'm just reading the Wikipedia definition Is a broad music style

An aesthetic commonly associated with soft rock One of the most commercially successful genres From the 70s, mid-80s Okay, who's an example of yacht rock? Like, give me an artist. I think like like, like, like almost like James Taylor type of You know what I mean?

Ooh. I love it. This is great. What hell is this? Oh, Julian. Weekend counts as, oh, wait a minute. Vampire Weekend? Thundercat?

Oh. In fact, actually, in this Wikipedia article, they mentioned a very specific song by Thundercat that has Kenny Loggins and Michael McDonald called Show You the Way. That counts as Yacht Rock. Okay. Christopher Cross is like the classic, I think, sorry, I think I said James Time.

Christopher Cross, I think is a. Okay. There you go. All right. We know that you didn't do yacht rock. I was joking. I tried not to. But I did listen to a lot of music on my way there.

And at one point I called my grandma, like just before I was getting in Tammonton, just like checking in on her and stuff. But I find for drives, like, like, there's a few podcasts I might enjoy. But I try to just listen to music that I know I'm going to be upbeat for. And I'll sing along to tap my steering wheel. That just keeps me awake, especially if it's like a long drive. I'm just looking through a lot of pastures. There's just a lot of the same things.

If I start hearing people's voices, I might start falling asleep. But if I hear like a really good song, I'm like, oh, this song is on. Like that's going to keep me awake, especially for like a three-hour drive. Okay. So if you're susceptible to falling asleep at the wheel, I don't suggest a yacht rock. No. No. But I'm glad I now know what yacht rock is.

Yeah, there you go. See, we try and teach you something every week on the Monday pod. And by the way, smart move to slide a quick call into your grandma because now, Now that makes it impossible for me to mock you, make fun of you, because everyone's like, oh, that's really sweet. And I like this guy for the rest of the podcast. He's my grandma. Yeah, exactly. I was not, you know.

I even called her on my way out of Edmonton, too. I called her going into Edmonton. I called her on my way out. Is your grandma a sports fan? No, she's not a sports fan. My grandfather was no longer with us was a longtime Boston Bruins fan and a Tottenham Hotspur fan. Now what made him a Bruins fan? Yeah, my hypothesis is that for anyone who immigrated to Quebec, like, I guess like the 50s or 60s or 70s or something, and they just kind of didn't see themselves on those Canadian teams or whatever, which were obviously like very emblematic of like the culture Frenches and Quebecwa.

Like maybe they end up adopting other teams like a Boston. I have another family friend who also immigrated from the Caribbean and they wanted nothing to do with the Canadians and they became like a St. Louis Blues fan. You look at people who live in like indigenous communities like Ganooga in Quebec. Like not only are they all Bruins fans in like 2019 when they were in the Stanley Cup final against St. Louis, I remember working at CTV at the time. And we got a call from the Mohawk Council in that area. They called the station and said if the Bruins win the Stanley Cup, in game seven, we're going to hold a parade in our community. So I generally think there's like a weird POC immigrant culture thing from some of the earlier

decades of the 20th century where they didn't want to hop on the bandwagon of the Canadians and they ended up just saying, okay, we're going to cheer for all these other different teams for a very different reason. So that's why I think, I think my grandfather was like a Bruins fan just because he just didn't want to, he didn't want to vibe with the Canadians. He just wanted to be different. he just wanted to cheer for this other team. So he was a bruce fan for a good chunk of his life.

Let me blow your theory up a smidge. My parents immigrated to Canada in the 1970s. And my dad, obviously, person of color, jumps right on that Canadian's bandwagon. Right there. The country family. The country family immigrated to London and they were all Canadians fans. So to my point, like it's not everybody. Like, there definitely exists.

I think my dad became a Dallas Cowboys and a Montreal Canadiens fan. So, thank God he could have been a Pittsburgh Steelers fan. He could, like, you know, he could have. Could have been any better. The 70s were the time of dynasties, right? The ninth, I'll tell you what, Julian. The 70s were a time of sports dynasties and yacht rock.

Oh, my God. You have to give me your top five yacht rock artists. All I know is Christopher Cross. Damn. I like Kenny Logging's a little danger zone But I don't think danger zone is Yacht Rock A yacht rock is it That's fair

Have you watched the new Top Gun by the way? I did I love it See I was worried I'll be honest with you And I'm don't worry Listen we're gonna get right back to Hockey Talk here Don't worry

We will Because Max Bolton's gonna join us in a moment I was worried Because I saw it late Like I saw it like six weeks in And everyone was like This is the best So I was worried that the bar

Was set unreasonably high so that when I did watch it, I'm like, nah, it was good, but it wasn't as good as everybody said. I came out of that theater. I'm like, high-fiving people. Like, this is the best movie I've seen in summer. It's the best, it's the most fun I've had watching a movie in a movie theater, probably since Marvel End Game or Infinity War.

It's the most fun I've had in a long time watching a movie. Most fun I've had since Mrs. Doubtfire. Ooh, that was, that's a good movie. I didn't watch any theaters, but that was, That's a fun movie. That's a really good movie. You subtly say that because you know you weren't born when Mrs. Delfire came out.

I get it. I get it. All right. I'll tell you what, Julian. You know what? You know when you look at somebody and you're like, that person's living my life? I feel like Max Boltman's living my life. I'm supposed to be covering the upstart team that's two and all.

Not him. That's my life. That's my life. Oh my God. I need to know how the other half is doing because I'll tell you what, Ottawa and Detroit, a lot of people thought this was going to be a neck and neck race this season. And look, it's only two games in. But let's be honest here.

I'm sure the moods couldn't be any different between Ottawa and Detroit. Max Boltman joins us here on the Athletic Hockey Show on a Monday. So give us a sense, Max, of the excitement level after years of missing the playoffs in Detroit, off to a two and oh start. what's the temperature in that city? I feel like what I'm supposed to do right now, Ian, is be really polite and tell you, oh, you know, it's nothing. You know, it's like you're out to dinner and you order something.

Everyone goes, it looks good and you have to downplay. No, it's just okay. But you know what? I'm suffering from food envy. Exactly. I've been logging into read the comments on my stories so far and everyone's happy and positive. And after, I know you've lived the exact same last five years that I have where you don't usually even get to Thanksgiving.

giving before everyone's ready to burn it down. That part has been a relief, and I think there is definitely some real excitement in Detroit around this team, and it's on the radio. And, you know, in Canada, I know that's the hockey's always on the radio, but here, you know, it's Lions, Lions, Michigan football, Michigan State football. And they were talking about it on my way home today. So, yeah, I definitely palpable excitement, I would say, around the team. And now we'll see if they can keep it going.

I mean, that's kind of the thing is you open this. season up with a win that I think was exactly what they needed over Montreal, and then they go out and they win the second out of a back-to-back against New Jersey. They're going to get their first real test, though, I think tonight in an LA team that made the playoffs last year. And I'm really curious to see how that goes for them. What were the expectations before the season started? Like, Ottawa did what they did in the offseason. And there were people there were saying, hey, you know what, this team might actually make the jump into a playoff contention. There are some people who definitely felt that. I know for me, I wasn't.

sure if Detroit was ready to do that. We're fans in Detroit, where people in Detroit thinking like, hey, the Red Wings, like, this is the year they should be in the playoffs, like they should be that third or fourth team, probably fourth, I guess. Not expecting, but very much wanting to be convinced, I would say. Like, you know, the broader landscape in Detroit, you know, it's the lions, it's the tigers, it's the Pistons, it's the Red Wings. Not only have none of those teams been good for a long time, there's been some false

starts. This was supposed to be the year the Tigers were good and potential. challenge for a playoff spot. That went off the rails really fast. And so it wasn't so much that I think people who were expecting the Red Wings to make the playoffs or even still expect the Red Wings to make the playoffs. I do not expect them to make the playoffs. But I think there's been a lot of just hope of like, man, if they could really threaten, if they could make this interesting into March, I think that's the hope. They want to see fun hockey. And, you know, it's been a while since there's been that for a long stretch of the season. So I think that maybe it's more hope.

an expectation. I don't think anyone, too many people at least, have been going around expecting the playoffs, but hoping for something like that. Is there one change or one different thing you've seen with Derek Lalant as the head coach that you can, I know it's early, but maybe even just through training camp, now the first week of the regular season, you're like, oh yeah, that, that's different than what Jeff Blashell did. This is a great question because I think when you have a new coach, I think what can get lost sometimes is a lot of coaches want the same broad things. They want to defend well. You know, they want teams that can play a certain way.

You'll hear these things from coaches who, you know, you'd think they're different, but they really ultimately want the same things. Two that jump out to me, number one is on the penalty kill. The Redbings have been a lot more aggressive on the PK than I think I saw them in the last few years under Jeff Blaschell. That stood out right away. And the other thing I think is the way that they've defended the neutral zone, I think, I'm not like a super savvy X's and O's guy, so maybe I'm going to out myself a little bit here. I don't know exactly what is different about it, but I know that there's a lot more pressure

on the opposing team as they try to carry it in to just dump it in. I think it's been effective so far. Those are the two things that stand out. Could I tell you exactly how they've accomplished that? To my shame, I couldn't, but those stand out to me as priorities and differences. What about players in terms of players who have stood out to you the most? One guy is dominant Kubalik, and he comes in, and I think everyone remembers his rookie year was outstanding in Chicago 30 goals. So you know the talent is there, but it had kind of taken steps in the other direction, specifically last year.

And you weren't quite sure what was going to be the situation when he walked in. Obviously, you see the goal scoring talent right away. The shot is excellent. But what I have been surprised by pleasantly is how hard of a forechecker he's been. He's got a big body. But I think he's really worked off the puck in a way that he's going to be on the top line. tonight in place of Tyler Bertuzzi, who's out four to six weeks with an upper body injury. I think obviously everyone saw him block a shot with what looked like his hand.

Pretty easy to connect the dots there. Kubolink's going to get the first crack at taking his spot next to Dylan Larkin and Lucas Raymond. The other guy is a guy, Julian, you're well familiar with Ben Chirot. I think he's made a pretty instant impact on the top pair for them physicality-wise. And that's another area of their game, to Ian's point, you know, what's going to be different? I think they want to be a lot more physical. and Ben Chirot is that all day.

I'm curious, you know, when you look at the first two games, we've only given up two goals and obviously goaltending, big part of that, you know, Vili Huso and Alex Nadelcovic, good to start the season. But the goalie, I think most Detroit fans might be excited about. Certainly the one that we're interested, or I'm interested in is Sebastian Casa. Or Costa. Is it COSA or CASA?

COSA, yeah. COSA. Interesting, or kind of, maybe you could just lay this out. Lay this out for our listeners. their plan with COSA this year is going to be interesting. And obviously there's going to be a lot of attention. This is a first round draft pick, a guy that you think, you know, two to three years from now is going to be the guy when Detroit is ready to be a contender.

But what's kind of the plan for him this season? Because it's, you know, it's certainly interesting the way that they're handling their young net minors. It really is. And it's kind of a million dollar question. I don't know that we even still have a full grasp on what the plan is for Sebastian COSA. He was sent to, you know, the minor leagues and obviously assigned it. Toledo for the opener. He plays really, from what I understand, has a really good game in the opener. Chris Peters, who joins us on the Friday Prospect Show was, I think, at that game and

tweeted about it. And then he was recalled to Grand Rapids, but not, you know, didn't dress from what I saw in the press box. So I'm kind of curious as to what exactly is going on there. You do not usually see recent first round pick goalies in the ECHL just in the second season after their draft. That is pretty uncommon. I know. what the Red Wings are prioritizing with him. They think above all he needs reps and they want him to be challenged. The ECHL can be that. They are pretty deep in the AHL in terms of goaltending.

Okinawara and Bradstrom, both guys that I think they feel like can play for them and give them good minutes. But Kosa took a big step forward from what I can gather this fall. I mean, from the previous times I had seen him, real noticeable difference. To me, his prospect tournament was strong and he just kept it up into the preseason. season. So I'm very curious to see where does he end up playing the lion's share of his games this year because they have said its reps. Seems like they're willing to do that in the ECHL, even though that is a little unprecedented, but maybe he gets some time around GR as well. I'm honestly

not sure that I could tell you specifically what the plan is going to be this year right now. I want to go back to my expectations question for a second. As someone obviously not in the Detroit market, not as familiar with the fan base and how they react to certain things, I still find it really incredible. This is a franchise that has been, had spent all those years in the playoffs, and they find themselves on the outside looking in. And we know they're doing everything they can

to get the team ready so they can be a contender one day. They've spent all these years accumulating all these good prospects. We know about the offseason that they just had. I'm curious about the patience of Red Wings fans. Like, what is that like? Like, is it, how have they been so patient over the better, part of like the last five years or maybe they just haven't been patient like what could you tell me about that aspect of redwings fans no this is one of the most fascinating things to me is that when i

got on to this beat in 2018 um there was kind of a desire to embrace a rebuild um i think fan it was kind of the very beginning of it i think 2017 is what i would consider the start of the rebuild and i think kind of 2018 19 is what i think where fans really realized uh that it was going to be a full-scale rebuild. And I think they've bizarrely, they had bizarrely for a while, they've gotten more patient. And I think the reason is because Steve Iserman arrived. And obviously he's got a ton of institutional trust from his career as a player, as well as what fans saw him do in Tampa. I think the Red Wings, by putting Steve Iserman in charge of this and as kind of the face of this rebuild, I don't know that he likes the phrase Izer plan, but I think it does resonate with fans, right, to just this idea

that, well, you know, Eiserman's got it, right? I think that is what's allowed them to stay pretty patient. I think there is an eagerness, like I said, a real hope and an eagerness for it to turn the corner and be in the playoffs. But if they don't make it this year, I don't think that fans are going to say, like, well, what the heck? I think they will be understanding of it. In fact, when the Red Wings went out and made all their moves this off season, those

additions, one of the fairly common questions I heard was, are they doing this too fast? Are they trying to accelerate this too quick, which is... Too fast. Yeah, you just never hear that, right? So it has surprised me. I think, and I think it all comes back to who the GM is and how much fans trust him. He kind of has a amount of buy-in of credibility with the fan base that is just so rare in pro sports. Man, I feel like just looking at what's going on in Detroit and thinking a little bit about what's going on in Montreal,

all, if I was in charge of an NHL franchise somewhere and I know we had to go through a rebuild, have some former player be among the faces of that rebuild who was like very skilled and obviously knows a figure or two about hockey. And I feel like that plays into the patience a little bit. It's a limited sample size, but that's what I'm thinking. It's risky too, though, because imagine they fail and you someday have to fire a guy who is beloved as a player, right? And it is not, not everyone is going to be Joe Sackick, Steve I's and have the kind of managerial success they did as a player, there is a risk there. I think the confidence level has to be really high.

And obviously what Iserman did in Tampa made that probably easier for Detroit. But it's fascinating. I mean, I went to the University of Michigan and the football coach there, Jim Harbaugh, you know, recently having quite a bit of success. But there was some years there where that was looking rocky. I don't know how many of our listeners follow, you know, American College football. but like Michigan football under Jim Harbaugh had some years where there were some people saying they're going to have to fire him, whatever. He's turned it around quite well, but that is the risk that you run.

When you have these franchise icons, yes, it does get you some extra buy-in, but it can make for a really, really painful end if it comes to that. And to clarify with Montreal, I know San Luis wasn't a former player with the Canadians. It's just he was a former player. No, no, for sure, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. See, what I would do in Montreal, I'd bring. in like bring in somebody who is super polarizing with the fan base like a whipping boy like

Patrice Breezebo. You bring him in and then just let the chaos reign supreme. That's what I would like. Yeah. Somebody who's just going to eat it. Yeah, exactly. When you know it's going to be a tough stretch, bring in. I think they have him as an ambassador funny enough.

I think Patrice Breeze. Because like they started bringing in some more like Chris Nilead is one, Vincent Delpholz is one. I think Patrice Brisebois, I saw in one of those Canadians videos where they have like, you know, more of the older players as ambassadors. I think Patrice is one. It's funny, though, every market has like the, and well, tell me, Max, you tell me over the years.

Every fan base, there's like one whipping boy and it's always a defenseman. Is this accurate or not? When I got here, it was Jonathan Erickson. He was the one that every fan wanted to blame every single thing on. it evolved into abdlocator Franz Nielsen and then back to last year it was Danny de Kaiser So they they moved back to defense then yeah yeah yeah for sure and I think there's there's like we could probably come up with a Sean McIndoo could come up with a great like you know formula for who's your whipping boy and it would be like he's over 30 he makes X amount of dollars over four and a half million dollars right exactly he gets caved in on analytics yep he's been the analytics have to be

terrible. Coaches love them. They talk about playing the hard game. That's right. The coach talks him up and he's been with the team for like at least three years so that fans can't, you know, no one can be like, oh, well, you know, he's still getting his life. Like he's got to have been there and they got to be able to say, no, no, we've seen what

we need to see. Get him out of the lineup so we can get our 20-year-old fourth-round pick in who's got to be the savior. Yeah. See, that's every fan base's journey. Hey, before we let you go, I got to ask you this because I think this is one of the great stories of the year. We have so much focus on.

Patrick Kane and so much focus on some of these, you know, pending UFAs, Dylan Larkin, this is going to be really interesting. And I know you've written about this. Yep. The Matt Barzell comparison that you've brought it up. Then Pierre LeBron, straight out stealing from you. No, okay. No, I appreciate it because I'm throwing it out.

And then Pierre, you know, reports that there's something to that. So that made me feel good. Yeah. Well, listen, it's, listen, if you want to talk about faces of franchise is boy, Dylan Larkin, he's right up there. He's a Michigan guy and he's the captain and he's really well liked. But look, how does this play out? Like, what's the likelihood of an eight-year deal for Dylan Larkin to stay in Detroit that happens at some point in the months ahead?

I still think that that is where it ends up. You know, it's been, I've been surprised already that it's not done. So maybe I am being a little naive here. I just think you look at every factor in this. You know, he's 26 years old. old, first line center. You know, I know people can get tired of kind of the hometown angle and all that stuff, but I think the totality of Dylan Larkin and what he brings to the franchise on the ice,

off the ice, the captaincy is ultimately too valuable for the Red Wings to let, whatever that difference is. I don't know what the difference is. If it's a half million dollars, if it's a million dollars, whatever the gap is right now between his camp and the Red Wings camp, it can't, it just can't be so big that, you you ignore all the other stuff. And so I think, you know, maybe it ends up that Steve Eisenman is willing to play hardball. And we saw him take Stephen Stamcoast to the brink of free agency. I think that tells you all you need to know about whether he has the stomach for this. He certainly does. And I also think, you know, when you look at Dylan Larkin, I think, you're talking about the Bersal deal. It shows you the direction that this stuff is moving in. Does he end up with the Bersel deal? I don't know. But it does tell, it should tell him, I think, that that money's out there. And at some point, something has to give. The fact that he's got a full no trade clause, to me, says if they, if they didn't think that they were going to eventually figure this out, something would have

happened already. Once the full no trade clause kicked in, I think, you know, Steve Eisenman had to know that the deal, the right deal was going to be there in the end. But I could I tell you it's going to happen in a month before New Year's, before the trade deadline, before July 1? I would think before July 1. But at this point, that's about as confident as I'm willing to be. Yeah, again, just one of the many interesting storylines around Detroit. Max, listen, thanks for dropping by. And don't, look, as the season progresses, if the wings stay up there and autos at the bottom, you know, say hello from time to time from the penthouse. You know, don't forget about the little people.

Don't forget about the little people at the bottom of the standings if I'm stuck down here. Don't, don't be afraid to say hello. Look, I'm going to, I'm staying following the draft and all that. We'll keep talking all the rebuilt talks that we've been doing for, for years yet, no matter which direction this goes. Awesome. Hey, listen, enjoy Kings and Wings here on Monday, and I'm sure we'll get you again real soon. Thanks for having me, guys. Take care.

All right, Julian, we're really looking forward to this guest dropping by the pod today because Justin Davis has a new book that's out this week called Conflicted Scars. And I think that the title is probably, you know, almost self-explanatory, gives a little window into, you know, his career in hockey. And, you know, what I want to do just before we bring, bring them on, I just going to read the very beginning of the introduction to this book because I think this is a great introduction. And it reads as follows.

You may have seen the cover of this book and asked yourself, why? Why would a quote-unquote average hockey player whose name barely registers with hockey fans write a book? And why would anybody bother to read it? So that's the perfect way for us to bring in Justin Davis. Again, as I mentioned, the author of Conflicted Scar. So Justin, answer that question for us. Tell us, tell us why the hockey fans are listening to this podcast here,

who may not be familiar with your hockey journey in your career. Why is your book of interest to them? Well, first of all, thanks for having me. The original title was, so you want your kid to play in the NHL. So that was my initial thing was I see all these hockey parents. My son just finished playing AAA hockey last year. And they're doing everything 12 months a year, $20,000 a year to have their kid play in the NHL. And they think, I think at times that the town they live in is going to throw them a parade for producing an NHL player.

And everything the kid goes through is going to be fantastic. They're going to play World Juniors in the NHL. And what I wanted to write a story about is what happened to me. And with it being an average player, I know they say you played in the O HL and you got drafted, but as far as a junior hockey player and some of them played pro hockey, I'm the average player. And this is the story. So I want parents to see what it's actually like behind the curtain and what they're putting their child through and both the good things and the bad things. There's some parts of the book I'm really intrigued about with regards to your views on the way you've adapted to the culture.

but I'm also intrigued at your upbringing in the game. And you mentioned one of the earlier parts of the book about how you're playing in this community and you're doing really well, but like everyone hates you for it. Like what's it like being this kid where you're scoring like how many goals a night, you're winning all these trophies,

and you're going into games where you have like old women giving you double birds after you score a goal. Like what's not like? Well, I think that was an era where like, I said, if you don't play AAA hockey now and your parents aren't willing to drive you the hour, hour and a half, people think it's a form of child abuse, so you're not doing it. But back then, our parents, we played small town hockey, which was single A, and the best players would be playing AAA now played single A, so they were nine or ten. So I'd score 350 goals a year.

And one of my good friends of Milton, he'd score 350 goals a year. And you got to the point where just the jealousy within the kids that you played with and the other centers you went to where people were, presented you for that. And I was told multiple times that no one from our organization is ever going to make it anywhere. So don't worry about this. And I talk in the book about how it led to me walking out the arena. Just kind of, you're embarrassed. You're walking out with your head down. My parents would be in the car. And even with my own son, I'd always tell me if you want an MVP or an award, put it in your pocket. We'll talk about in the car. Don't showboat and don't be arrogant. So all these things I figured out as a 44 year old with three kids later, the things I carried over

from being a five or six year old playing hockey still sit with me today. It's funny that you mentioned now, you're 44. And, you know, listen, I'm 45, so we're kind of like in that same age bracket. And, you know, hockey's been a part of my life, most of my life, just as it was for you. And obviously now, as you look at the news cycle, pay attention to the new cycle, toxicity in hockey has really been at the forefront, Justin. And I'm wondering, when is it for you that you kind of started to look back and realize, like, oh damn, maybe I was part of a toxic culture.

Or did you know, like when you were a teenager, when you were in the O HL, like, did you know that some of this stuff you were involved in or, you know, were subjected to was part of a kind of a toxic culture? Did you just say like, ah, that's, that's hockey? Yeah, I mentioned, like, we always used to refer to people that didn't play hockey as civilians. So, like, I was at a dinner party and I was there with three civilians and so and so. So I always thought I was the normal one.

And these things that we did were normal. And it wasn't until I became a high school teacher and you're sitting in the office and you may say something you shouldn't or you're telling stories and you're like people are looking at you kind of a little strangely and you realize that I was I was different and this culture became normal to me. And it was almost someone compared it the other day to like military, the interviewing people in the military and what it's like coming out. And that's what it felt like. And it wasn't until I started writing this at my age that I started to realize and I even started writing this memoir. I wanted to tell people how great my time in Ottawa was, winning Memorial Cup, what it's like to get drafted. And then as I started to write, I realized, holy crap, like I did this, I did this, and some things weren't right. So to answer your question in a long-winded way, it's, I didn't realize the culture wasn't normal until I removed myself for five, ten years from the game.

And to that effect, like I think of one particular moment where you look at a guy like Akeem, who's obviously been in the news over the last little while and how your initial thought was when he was bringing up everything he had endured in his junior career. You figured he was a guy who should probably just toughen up. I'm curious of the fact that now that you've realized that you've realized that what you've endured in hockey culture has made you different from other people walking around, from any of your other buddies who you've played junior hockey with or have been part of the culture with, have they also covered that realization?

And what is it like, you know, if you hear one of your your former teammates, if you still hang around with them, kind of still carry about that way, knowing that, you know, the way hockey players kind of conduct themselves, maybe it probably shouldn't be the way to conduct yourself in everyday society. Yeah, and I think that was the fear. I initially wrote this memoir to my kids that they were going to open up in a drawer 15 years from now and Rita. And now here I am with you guys. And it's been a lot more public with the hockey Canada stuff. I thought when people would reach out that it's like what said in the room stays in the room, to your point. And people have reached out and said, like, stuff I did was wrong and things that happened to me were wrong. So that's been really interesting to hear people talk about that and

feel the opportunity to share. And as far as looking at Akeem Alu and even talking to him the other a couple days ago, and just having a great conversation about it, you hear these things that he's the issue, he's the issue, all this stuff that's happening. And so you just become so ingrained in you. I played with, I had one black teammate when I was 12 years old in summer hockey. I played with probably two indigenous players while I played. And you just buy into that culture and you buy into how you talk about people and the way you view people. So I think we're all coming to terms with how we were. And we wish at times, like I said, Dakeem, I wish I had the guts to stand up. But it was a big risk for your career.

And at that time, you, you did not say anything. So I don't want to be one of those people off to the fact that comes out talking, say, I should have done this and I should have done this. But I'm here today because I want it to be out there. I want to talk about it. And hopefully I can use the book for some change. I have no idea that it was going to come to this. So I'm even doing a panel on Saturday with Akeem and in Guelph and just talking about

his story. And hopefully we can bring that out to people in Guelph. you know, and I think it's interesting. I'm going to, again, read a small accent. We don't want to give away everything because we do want, you know, our listeners to buy your book and to really truly understand your story. But, you know, this passage certainly got to me just coming off of what Julian asked you. And it says throughout my career, I was complicit in this behavior.

I never stood up to it to stop it. I was ignorant. One of my coaches used to ask an indigenous teammate if it would be easier to send him a smoke signal than explain the drill. and anyone with an indigenous background would be called chief or some other discriminatory slur. I heard the N-word numerous times in the dressing room in the stands and on the ice, and although I knew it was wrong, I wouldn't say it myself. In my mind, it wasn't my problem.

One of my childhood friends while playing hockey in Germany had bananas thrown at him during a game, but I never asked what I could do to help. You know, what I think one of the biggest issues is bystander intervention is very, difficult in any environment, but more so in hockey, isn't it? Like, could you maybe just explain to our listeners how difficult it is to be that one guy who stands up and says, hey, guys, that's not cool to be racist or, hey, guys, that's not cool to talk about women that way, because that's not, it's almost impossible. You don't want to be the person who stands out. Hockey is the ultimate team game and you don't really, it doesn't create the environment that enables or empowers athletes

to call each other out, right? Like, what I guess what I want to do is try and explain to people how difficult it is to try and call out bad behavior in an institution and an environment that pretty much doesn't allow it. Well, it's a great point. And I mean, part of looking back of this, I thought this was 20 years ago, 25 years ago, surely things have changed. And then the Kyle Beach situation came. I'm like, this is 2014 we're talking about, that this is happening.

And no one spoke up. Like who, and when you talk about when we bring this into black teammates, I mean, I had a teammate who got a bad haircut one day at Supercuts in Calgary. And he was getting dressed in the dressing room and everybody knew he had a bad haircut. We waited for him to take his hat off. And everybody in the room knew it. So you're telling me that this is happening to Kyle Beach in 2014, but nobody in the dressing room had any idea this stuff was happening.

And it's the same with bringing this back to the racial issues in the game. No one's going to speak up. because it stays in the room. And when you do speak up, look at the people that got punished for talking, right? How many people actually speak up while they're playing and they're seen as leaders and they're praised for it? Usually, you're ostracized from the game. And from the Kyle Beach situation to Akeem situation, it's tough to talk about it.

It's not a world. I was saying in basketball and football, you're praised for being an individual and they praise the individual. and hockey, it's just, like you said, perfectly, you're part of the team and no one's bigger than the team. It's about the name on the front of the jersey and not the back of the jersey. And I think that's the huge issue with everything you've talked about. Not to correct you, I think that Kyle Beach, unfortunately,

what he had endured, I think was a couple of years earlier than 2014, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah. Oh, yeah, I think you're right. 2010, right? 2010. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, no, that's still within, that's like, you know, like it's too recent, right? Well, that's what I'm saying. I thought of my story as 1999 and you're looking back surely it doesn't happen. And then when you look at 2010, it's it's not far that far ago.

From your vantage point, you're a, I believe you're a phys ed teacher now. Is that correct? Yes. And you have children who have you put them in a game of hockey as well? Yeah, I had a son who's 16 years old and he just finished playing AAA and he's in his draft here. And I think part of looking at this is you look at him. and getting to a game and forgetting a stick or I said making a piece of toast or forgetting it's there and was burning the house down, right? And I see how innocent he is. And this is all happening to us when we're 15, 16, 17 years old. And I thought I was this mature person who could endure all this stuff. And I saw parts of me and him. So that was the big part of this is I realized how innocent we are.

And hockey is one of the few games where you're moving away at 15, 16, 17 years old, living with other family and you're getting your life lessons from your teammates and your coaches. From the vantage point that you have, being around younger kids and seeing your own children in the culture, do you sense that there's any significant change from what you endured as a player to what's happening now? And how much do you think the events of the last few years and players who have spoken out have influenced whatever change might be that. I definitely think there's been some change. We talked about the hazing stuff and I talked about the hot box

and a lot of terrible stuff that happened to me in junior C or junior B. That stuff, thank goodness, has been taken out of the game. So I appreciate that stuff. But we have a long way to go with other cultural things. And I mean, the game's so expensive. You just said, my son plays. In his draft portfolio and questions he has asked, It was who's your mental skills coach, who's your power skating coach, who's your, who's your nutrition expert.

And you're looking, you're talking about paying $15,000 a year. So when you're looking at new citizens to Canada, you're looking at low-income families, who's able to afford to play. And that's the part of the change that we have to make the game accessible to everyone. I'll just ask one final question on my end. You mentioned the fact that you are going to be conducting a panel with Akeem Aliou this coming weekend. On top of the fact that you have the book, and I know you've been going around just, you know, bigging up the book. I know you're on Alan Walsh's podcast.

I know he's your former agent once upon a time. You're putting yourself in a position where you're calling attention to the fact that there were a lot of bad things in alky culture that need to be changed. and there needs to be more advocacy for some of that stuff to be changing for people to stand up. I would just like to know from your vantage point. As someone who is developing this platform, you know, what else do you see yourself doing to call attention to the fact that there should be more change in the game of hockey and in hockey culture? Yeah, great question. And when I first, I was worried about coming out and then there was a little anxious when it came out, but said hockey forgot about me a long time ago. I'm dealing with repercussions of my injuries.

And so this isn't, first of all, this is no way am I trying to make money or I'm not joining the civil lawsuit. I'm not doing all these things. This isn't, I'm not an angry person trying to bring about change that way. With the panel on Saturday, I just want to, I want to learn. I'm sitting here talking about what it's like to be a black hockey player and pro hockey and junior, but I have no idea. And I know that. So part of this journey for me is learning what I can do from a team, learning from this podcast. and talking to you guys what I can do better and hopefully have some change.

And the last thing, I volunteer at the Guelm, and they're a franchise that's doing things right right now. They have me as a chapel leader. I'm a player mentor. There's a police officer from the community who acts as a player liaison. So if there's an issue with one of the players in the team, they report to him and it's totally separate from the coach and the general manager. So I just want to encourage every team to have these people around.

So mental health is huge and make sure we can support players. growing up in the game. So that's my initial goals. We'll see where this goes. This is a lot farther than I expected things to be. So hopefully I can make a difference in just using this book as a platform. Yeah. And again, the book is conflicted scars, an average player's journey to the NHL by Justin Davis. On the cover, Joe Thornton is quoted as saying Justin's book should be on the shelf of every hockey parent. So there's the endorsement you need from Jumbo Joe. Hey, listen, Justin, and really appreciate you taking a few minutes to talk about this, to tell us a little bit about your journey.

And we do encourage people that, hey, if they're interested in this, or in particular if you've got kids in hockey, it seems like this is something for parents to read. So appreciate you taking a few minutes to drop by the podcast. Perfect. Thank you, guys. All right. That was a great conversation with Justin.

I look forward to that book. You know, I was able to get, you and I were both able to get kind of an advanced copy of that. And certainly some interesting stories. I would love to. you know, kind of almost be a fly on the wall for that event he was just talking about in Guelph with a key Malia. I didn't expect that connection.

I didn't realize he got to a point where he connected with him. And I really appreciated him answering the questions that we asked. I think we are both in unique positions in the changing hockey culture in which the sport is trying to be more and more accepting of. newer perspectives and also being media people that we are, obviously with the varying experiences, is not lost on me that like we host a podcast for a prominent platform on a Monday and we are two persons of color doing it. So the fact that we were able to get that interview and ask him the questions and not, and obviously we put race into it as well. It has to be involved. But the fact

that we were in that position to do that, that's not lost on me. And I'm pretty proud of the fact that we were able to handle the questions as well as we did. And I'm pretty satisfied with how Justin did as well. Yeah. And you know what? You're right. And although I do think as much as you and I, we try and represent the kind of the new face of hockey, I made a huge mistake when I dropped a yacht rock reference earlier in the show.

That doesn't help. That doesn't help. We can't all be perfect. It's not progressive. It's not progressive. What was I doing? Are you going to go to NHL locker rooms now and just like ask players, just be like, Hey, man, give me your best yacht rock, man.

Give me your favorite. I bet if you go to Jake Sanderson. Maybe Jeff would know. Maybe his dad would know. I saw him the other day. Yeah, absolutely. I bet you he would know. He's in his 40s like I am.

Yeah. See, I've reached the age. When I broke into this industry, Julian, I remember I was around the same age as, you know, Marty Havlat and Marion Hosa and like, I was a few years older than Jason Spets. But like, those guys would all come in. in and, you know, I could kind of relate to them.

Like, one of my favorite things ever, I got a PlayStation 2. I secured a PlayStation 2 before Martin Havlat. Oh, word? And I was like, man, I can't believe I got. So now I walk into a room. I'm like, I'm the, where's the coach's room? I can go, I can go relate. Hey, DJ, is your back hurting today?

God, my back is sore. Ben, I'm at that point now. That's how I feel now. Breaking into the league and covering teams, I'm looking at guys, I'm like, oh, my God, Mackenzie Weger and I are like the same age. Yeah, enjoy it, man. Enjoy it. It goes by fast because all of a sudden, you're going to be like, well, you're not the same

age as, you know, obviously Darryl Sutter is a bit older, but, but like at some point, you're going to be around this game and you're like, I'm the same age as, like, now I'm the same age as parents of the players. Like a Jake Sanderson's dad, Jeff. He's a few years older than me, but in the ballpark. Other people's parents, like, I'm that age. And, yeah. I think Chris Johnston on the podcast that you can listen to

through the NFL of Chris Johnson show, we were talking about players' ages. And I mentioned how his age is the same, it might be the same age as Craig Anderson. Or I think Craig Anderson might be a little older. Craig's 41. Yeah, CJ was saying that with Craig Anderson, He's not playing.

He's still in the league. He's not playing. I don't remember what he's doing, but. Craig? He's stonewalled Ottawa on opening night, so he's very much playing. I'm sorry about that. Sorry, you can tell him my priorities are at. But, like, I think he's, like, the only player in the league who is older than CJ.

I think he's the only player in the league still playing who's older than Siege. So once he leaves, like, Siege is older than everybody. He becomes older than everybody. Yeah, that's me. I'm sorry. I'm sorry I forgot about Craig Anderson doing this thing. And sorry, Ottawa fans. What are you doing not watching Ottawa Buffalo opening night? Where are your priorities?

Anyway, listen, we usually do a little multiple choice segment. But listen, we had two guests today. We're going to bump multiple choice to our bonus segment on Apple Podcast. So if you're not a subscriber with us on Apple Podcast, this is a great opportunity for you to kind of sample our, stuff over there. And, you know, with Apple podcasts, you get all of our bonus content. So we have, you know, bonus content from this show, other shows under the athletic

umbrella. So with Athletic Audio Plus, you get a 30-day free trial that is 99 cents a month after that. So you're going to head on over there, get the bonus content. That's pretty much all the time we have for this episode. We want to thank everybody for listening to the Athletic Hockey Show. Follow us on your favorite podcast platform. Leave us a rating and review.

We'd appreciate that. Main question I have for you, Julian. You completed your first true road trip for the athletic, right? This weekend? So technically it's my second because I did go, remember, I was in Ottawa like a couple months back, watching Canadians a sense. That's right.

The second one. Yeah. We were sitting next to each other in the press conference room waiting for DJ Smith and Thomas Shabbat. That's right. That's right. I guess my question is, have you filed your expenses already?

Oh, I'm doing that as soon as we get off. There you go. That's a veteran. It's a travel veteran files within a day or two. Don't let that stuff hang around. All right. We'll leave it there. I want to remind everybody that you can also subscribe

to The Athletic for a dollar a month for six months and visit Theathletic.com slash hockey show.