The Athletic Hockey Show - The Elias Pettersson conundrum

Episode Date: May 16, 2024

Hailey, Max and Sean look back on the big game 5 win for the Avalanche over Dallas and the star power of Cale Makar and Miro Heiskanen, arguably the 1st and 2nd pick overall if the 2017 draft was redone. They talk about the Canes trying to force a game 7 vs the Rangers tonight, Calvin Pickard leading the way in net for the Oilers and much more needed from Elias Pettersson in the playoffs, and they pay tribute to Canadian Sports broadcasting legend Darren Dutchyshen, who last his battle with cancer today at the age of 57. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic hockey show. What's up, everybody? It's another Thursday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. It's Haley, Max, and Sean here. Guys, the round two for the playoffs. Continue. What's going on? Are you guys enjoying it?

I still think the second round's the best round. It's feeling a little long, actually. Usually... You think that? I was unaware of this. I agree. I hate the second round. Are you being rude, like, right off the top?

I hate... Do you talk to Frank and DGB like this? Sure. I think of Craig like it all the time. Yeah. Remember him? No, I didn't, I didn't mean that to be rude. I honestly didn't know that that was your stance.

The round two was elite in that way. I mean, not usually, but this year the second round is the best round. It's the right combination where you have every game that's on is the only game on. So it's full center stage effect on like round one. But you still get the, double dose. You get the best most nights. We did not last night get the double dose, unlike rounds three and eventually four. And usually, certainly this year, there are every series, I think, has at least one team that we think

could win the Stanley Cup and they're all close. I think it's a great round. Yeah. I think, I think the matchups are good, but traditionally I don't like the second round, which is funny. I feel like, I feel like I'm, am I alone among the three of us? No, no. We are talking about this year's second round being the best round because I love the second round is great. I guess. Usually the second round, you have like the team that upset in the first round, either like

having, you know, the Cinderella story continues sometimes, but they'll kind of lose quickly and be like, well, it's over. Some of these series need to go seven games. I think that's where I'm at. Because I think not all six game series are created equal. And I think what we have

here is a situation in so many series where it's like someone was down 3-0, someone was down 3-1. And now it's like, yeah, maybe there'll be a game 6 for Rangers, Keynes, you know, we're in game 6 right now. Maybe there'll be a game 7. I think some of this stuff needs to make it to actual decisive game 7s before I feel good about it because I feel like we kind of disengaged with these.

I'll speak for myself, I disengage with some of these series a little bit early on where I was like, yeah, okay, it's 3-0, it's 3-1, you know, let's, just get this over with and move on to the conference finals. Clearly was incorrect. That was not the right approach to take. But I think some of these need to go game seven to completely hook me back in and deliver on some of the promise maybe that we saw at the start of it. I was getting to that point with Av stars.

Now, you know, obviously Dallas is the cup pick of this podcast. So maybe I was willing to give them a little bit more. I mean, I still believe in them. They were playing without hints last night. and Tanaev seems banged up. But I was to that point after game four in that series where I was like, all right, this is a formality. I still kind of think it is, but we'll see what Colorado can do here.

Yeah, so let's get to the AvStars. Colorado beats Dallas 5-3 last night. That series is now three to two. Dak Prescott was at the game last night. That's right. And I just, again, as your local Dallas Stars podcast, we want Dak Prescott to leave us alone. I'm sorry. He saw Jared Goff's new contract,

and he just wanted to get a little visibility to remind people that, you know, he too would like $57 million a year. Like, for what? I'm sorry. This isn't a couple of his podcast. He just needs to produce greatness on the level of Jared Goff, I think, is what we're saying here.

There aren't a lot of Jared Goffs around the league. You've got to elevate yourself to get to that level. Yeah, I wanted to like, do we know how he was received in Dallas? What was the crowd? What was the crowd like when old rain Dakota showed up on the video board there? I wonder if fans said, no, please God, leave us alone. Why are you here right now?

We know what happens when you are around in the postseason. Yeah, he's a harbinger of playoff doom. Yeah. Bad omen, dude. Don't come back. Sorry. We got to get some. We should have brought on like.

one of our cowboys friends. We should have brought on like one of them like dozens of cowboys sod or like my buddy my buddy Dave Helman get him to come on and talk about talk about the cowboys

in segment one for a while. Yeah sure. I don't. I just don't know why you would why you would like invite that kind of comparison like involved. No, why you would

cheer for the Dallas Cowboys. Ask your father. Pierre. S-P-R. Yeah. No, my dad's a Cowboys fan and we grew up and my dad is like, we'll get back on track in a second here. My dad is like the, he's quick on the trigger in terms of changing the channel and saying I'm done with watching this. So growing up as in a Cowboys household with Tony Romo, there was often, there were many nights where we just watched like the Colts or the Patriots instead because my dad would just rage quit on the Cowboys. And that's how. I, the intelligent 12-year-old, was like, why aren't we just Patriots fans? This tone really is so much better. The alliances of Canadian citizens with NFL teams is fascinating to me in general. And Canadian media members is another one too.

It's fine. It just depends on what's put on television. Anyways, so Doc Prescott was at the game. the stars lose. It was a good abs game. It was a good comeback game for them in the sense of game four didn't go well for them. They go down twice early in that game, one nothing and two one. Joe Pavelsky, by the way, gets his first goal finally of the postseason. Took a little longer than we thought, but we knew he wasn't going to stay with a goose egg for a while. But it was the abs, it kind of took until the third for the abs to pull away a little bit.

goals from Casey Middlestat and Kail McCarr. And I think this is a good opportunity to kind of revisit the Casey Middlestat deal because that was, I think, we all picked that as our favorite deal at the deadline, right? Middle stat for Bo Byram. It was a fun deal. And what do we think, guys? Is it working well for the avalanche? I would say so. I would say they got to find a way to make it last beyond a rental this year. They find a way to pay them and maybe they have some money being freed up here that we can talk about in a little bit. But yes,

and this was such a key thing for them last year is after they lost Cadre getting that secondary scoring from another scoring line. And he's been really good. Yeah, it's huge. He was good in the first series too. And he was part of the narrative, I think, for Colorado over the last two weeks. he's been like, all right, the other guys are stepping up. We're seeing it from Middlestead.

We're seeing it from Lekkonen or seeing it from, you know, in spots from Mile Wood. And Jonathan Drouin's been good when he's been when he's been in the lineup, which he, but I mean, the big problem, obviously, is number one, A, you know, at the top of that list is Valerie Natushkin and he's, and he's out for, we, and we discussed this on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the. as they show it at length. Obviously, he's out of the lineup. I think that's just a bigger opportunity for Middlestead to step up. And they got a whole, like a major dose of it last night, right? But they're going to need more from him, not just in this series either.

Like, that goes without saying, if they pull out of this, it's going to be because of continued contributions from Casey Middlestead. And if they advance any further and who knows what, what, whether Western Conference Final, Cup Final, whatever, it's going to. to be because Casey Middlestead gave us more of what we saw from him last night because they need every bit of it that they can get. Yeah, I think there's also the sense that, like, this is what makes the abs interesting is like if the abs are going to make it all the way, it's going to be because somebody like Camel McCar, Nathan McKinnon, or Miko ran and kind of like

took over and sold them game too. Um, like they have the ability to let their stars do it. I know it's harder to do against Dallas because they do have that depth that we've been talking about all season. Um, the reason. Um, the reason. that we all picked the Dallas stars early on in this process. But yeah, I think the ads have shown the ability to have their stars carry the way, but also let their secondary scoring play an important role too. I think Casey Middlestat is right where you'd kind of think he'd be in terms of their team scoring. Kail McCar and Nathan McKinnon lead the way with 14 points in 10 games,

Rantanin's right after Arturie Lekan, and then Valerian Nitchushkin was right after that, and then you have Casey Middlestat. So, like, I think that's right where you kind of want him, right? He's providing he's not that far back five points fewer than your stars. And he's providing that important kind of second or third layer. It'll probably be the second layer of scoring now, of scoring for the abs. And he's also just like, even aside from the goals, he just looks like a playoff player immediately. And this is his first playoffs too, which is exactly, exactly, right?

He's winning board battles and like in doing stuff behind the net. Like this isn't, and we love the goals and they're going to need to see more of that, obviously. But that dude has not looked out of place on the lineup, in the lineup for an elite NHL team. And I think that was, I think that's part of the reason we're going back to the original trade. I think that's part of the reason so many of us liked it in the first place because you're like, that makes sense because they need, because they need, A, they need a, they need a, they need a, they need a, player like that. And B, it's, this is like effemorable and it's, and it's like

not the most tangible thing, but like watching Casey Middell said over the last couple years, you're like, that guy, that guy seems like he can do it. And he's, so far he's done it. Yeah, it was one of those like, I wonder what he'll do if the Sabres make the playoffs. Which is never going to happen again.

So whatever. We can just, oh, what a funny thought that is for the Sabers and make the playoffs. So, you, You mentioned McCar at the top here. We did a Love Fest episode on the 2018 defenseman draft class a couple months ago. We're not looking at McCar and Hayskin and both as top 10 scores in this playoffs from the 2017 class here. And, you know, this is not a revelation, I guess, that we did the 2018 episode because Bouchard and Dobson and all that, that was, and Quinn, I think is kind of the Norris favorite going in here.

And this is not kind of the same breakout factor. These have been two of the best defensemen in the league for a while, but it is really fun to see them go head to head and be this good at the same time and really be carrying their teams. It takes elite skill to be able to do that, and there's only a handful of guys in the league that can do it, and he ends up doing it multiple times tonight to create that scoring chance. So it's just high skill awareness,

understanding your opponent, I'm sure, is part of it, and what they're trying to do. And great on him. I mean, that's what we need from him. obviously we need that now, especially where we're at in the series. And his skill shines through and his competitiveness shines through tonight. Yeah, this was kind of what I circled as the next kind of big topic coming out of that game, especially from last night, is the Hayskin and McCar matchup.

I know Sean, Dom and Shana did the playoff previews, and there's always the key matchup. And that was it. It was the Hayskin and McCar kind of duel. and it's lived up to kind of the hype and the expectation. And I think what's kind of fun, like obviously we can look at, you know, both of them score yesterday.

McCar gets two goals. And McCar's had a great series. I think the thing with Kail McCar for me too is, McKinnon said this after the game. And you always kind of have to remind yourself like, yeah, he's young, but he's also somebody who's been there,

done that, which makes him even more impressive. Like this is a guy who's already won a cup, won a Norris and won a Kahn-Smite trophy. So, like, you kind of think to yourself, my God, he's still so young and he's already kind of accomplished what a lot of people want to do in their career. So this matchup's been great. Kail Makar is doing Kail Makar things. You know what? And I'll get to their kind of matchup in a second. This was kind of widely looked at as like a disappointing Kale McCar season. I think, like,

qualitatively, like people were like, ah, he's just been okay. He had a, best like point production year and he's still a finalist for the Norris. That to me is like such a crazy commentary on how good this guy is, is that people for the most part were like, oh, it's not been a great kale year, but like you look at the points and you look at the Norris and you're like, well, yeah, it's still fine. Like if this is bad, Kail McCar, we're doing pretty good. And he finished strong too. I think that's that's part of it. You know, and by that point, we know how we know how voting works, right? We know how narratives are built more often than not

in one way or another, it's human nature for there to be, you know, you try to attach logic and storylines and stuff to award voting. That's just the way it goes. So timing is important, you know? A hot streak

from November to, you know, January 19th when it comes to awards voting is probably more important than a hot streak from, you know, March for three weeks in March. That's just the way it goes. And I think that's part of what we saw. And I'm not saying that because Quinn's going to win it and he's going to deserve it.

Like I'm not, I'm not saying that. But I think if this game sequencing would have been a little bit different, he would be, he would, McCar would, you know, be right there, be right there with him. And it is, it is funny. It is funny. We have, when we get fatigue when it comes of great players as well. That's a big part of it, too. like it would be boring to vote for the same people year after year.

I think I just more mean like when I saw that he got nominated as a finalist for the Norris. Like I saw Avs fans being like this wasn't even like a great care year and he still had 90 points in 70 games and that is a career high point total. Yeah, he finished great and he's been great in the playoffs. When I say like a bad kale year, that's like I'm not saying. It wasn't it wasn't consistent, right? And I think I think like sometime around February or March, we just kind of internalize like, okay, this isn't, this isn't, we're not seeing top shelf Kail McCar here. Like, maybe it's time to vote for someone else. And I, and I think that if, I think

that if you had a shuffled up the exact performance. I would disagree. I think it was more that Quinn was so good. But then by the end of the season, the conversation went back to like, it could, you know, Quinn's going to win. But like, oh my God, Kail McCar is the best defender on the planet in terms of what he can do on the offensive blue line. Max, what were you going to say about that? Well, so McCarr was in the top three on my ballot. And, you know, one of the things I think you fight when you're doing these votes is like, are you comparing a player to the field or are you comparing a player to their own past seasons, right? Yes. Yes. And so I kept coming back to like, I still think this guy's one of the three best of whenever I saw him this year, he was dominant.

So that's part of it too, like those live looks, you know, I get that I only see the guy live once or twice a year. But if when he's that good in those reps, that does stick with you a little more than games that you see on TV. And, and yeah, I just, you know, I thought Hayskenen was really good. this year, but at the end of the day, and he was also on my ballot, but I couldn't escape like how much more productive, I guess, for lack of a better word, McCar was. And so even though you look at his expected goals percentages in the regular season, it was lower than it's been for McCar, mostly on the defensive end, but he still got it done. And so I put him as a finalist. I did want to say, though, on that note about the expected goal stuff in the regular season,

it has been a different story in these playoffs. Like if it was his, worst of the last four years in the regular season. It is his best of the last four years in the postseason defensively. And I think that's really notable too when we talk about how good he's been, how productive he's been in the playoffs. Yeah, I think I docked him a little bit on my ballot for some of the defensive numbers, but he was still in my top five for sure. Looking back at the kind of matchup, though, bringing in Miro Haskinen into the conversation

and Max's your original point about the 2017 draft. And we've kind of boosted up the 2018 draft for a while. it's if we're let's read if we're redrafting 2017 and i know that it's not like mccar and haykinen went like 1112 so it's not going to be crazy here but if you're redrafting in 2017 like how high do these two guys go for you i think one too for me i mean i i think you have to take mccar number one and then i think that the debate is it too it's probably huge it's probably uh sorry haystinen Tedderson, I think at this point I would have to say Hayskenen. And you know, you can make the point about the big skilled center.

I get it. But Hayskinan shows up every game, every playoffs. And this is not a shot at Pedersen. But it's just that projectable. He played 28 minutes last night. And it was awesome in them. I don't know. To me, I would go Hayskin.

Am I wrong, Sean? At two? No, I think you're, I think that's where I'm at. I mean, what is? We flip it, whatever. And then there's the layer of centers where it's Petterson probably by himself. And then he sure and says it's like, it's like flip a. Robertson.

Robert Robertson, Robert Thomas is in the mix. But like all those guys, they're, you know, the discussion starts at three as far as. How high would you take Ottinger if you knew what he was going to become? Do we know what? Do we know what Jake Ottinger is? Okay. That's fair. Are you serious?

What? Mm-hmm. I am. He wasn't good during the regular season. If you knew what his career to this point was going to look like, how high would you take him? I think he'd be top five. Top five. He's top ten.

To be like conservative, he's top ten. So the stars have three top ten players from that draft class. I think there's two or three goal attenders in this league where you can count year in and year out to be elite. And I don't think he's one of them yet. So I think that you just said he'd go top five. You're contradicting years old. I'm not because I don't, I don't think the, I don't think the, we're not suggesting he's going first here. I don't think the draft is very good.

So like what I would, what I would take, I would take Patterson ahead of him. I would take. Thomas, would you take. And he sure. And then I think. And Nico he's sure probably over Ottinger. Yeah, top, top five is a mistake. But like, but we'll say seven or something, right?

Like I like, whatever. But, but, but I think there's, I, think there's a big, I think there's a big gap here. And like I said, I'm just not ready. I'm not ready to take Jake Ottinger over a true blue, like one, number one center. You're not taking it. Yeah, but we're not saying that. Oh, well, I, I am, I guess. The point is, the point is, is that the stars have three of the top 10 players from the 2017 draft. Oh, yes. Like, regardless of, you know, what you think about Ottinger, if he's a top 10 player in 2017. and we agree that Hayskinen is and he was in Jason Robertson's top 10.

The stars of three of the best players from 2017. That's a curse too. I saw someone bring this up recently. The stars didn't just do a great job on their own accord in that trap, which is obviously true because you have three foundational players that are taken. Everyone else kind of messed up. They screwed the Philadelphia Flyers. specifically

because they took they took Macar they took they took Ottinger before right before right before right and they took Ottinger right before

Philly took I believe it was Morgan Frost yes and then but whose fault was the Nolan Patrick pick sorry but Hayskenen went three I'm just saying

it's a it's a bitter pill for for Flyers fans to look back on that draft and be like, yeah, okay. There is a world where this is their celebrated. Correct. Triumvirate class.

Even like if Patrick hits and they get the right, like it's a similar deal. What's crazy to me about Dallas is that they basically did this twice to build this team. So they did it in 2017. And then on a lesser scale, but I think I'm going to stretch it for the for the sake of the narrative here. I know what you're going to say here.

2021 draft. They took Johnston, Stankovan, and then they took Greshnikov and traded him for TANov. So if you just take those two draft classes and the spoils of them, you have this Stars Cup contender. Jim Nill, baby. Good stuff. Experience.

Jim Nill, hockey. You know, when everyone was saying like hot Pierre Summer, we really should have just been boosting up hot Jim Nill fall. And if you guys don't think that I'm not going to make this a Ken Holland GM tree thing, if Holland Nill and Ryan Martin will make the top four. Yeah. Little Craig Custins has returned. there he is. I told Craig not to listen to the show that day, and he was like, why would you do? I was like, maybe I should have just not brought it up because there's no way Craig.

Yeah, he wasn't going to listen. He doesn't love us anymore. Chris Tanna, by the way, getting a lot of the McKinnon matchup minutes and probably isn't 100% got hit in the face, lost another tooth. What is a big hit? when has Christina been 100%? I'd love to know. Are we sure somebody to quantify that over the last like 10 years? Okay, well, he was 100% and didn't miss a game for like two years in Calgary.

That does not mean he was 100% though. Oh. I mean, no, he was, Tanev was like good until he had the shoulder injury against the Oilers and the playoffs. And then that's kind of been like the big narrative when he came to Calgary was like, this guy hasn't played a full season. He's always hurt. But he's a warrior.

Love him. But he's always hurt. And then he played two full seasons. Yeah, he was blocking like 150 shots a year, though. There's no way that that man was, was a hundred, right? He might have been cooking at 91. That's right. Grading on the grading on the Tenev curve, he was, he was a 100.

That's how I'm going to describe myself when I'm hung over on day two of the draft this year. I'm a Chris Tann of 100%. Yeah. Not me. I'll be a Chris Tenev 55. 70. Rough going. Vegas. Just don't go to another five guys, Max. We can't have another peanut pair up. Okay.

So yeah, I think Chris Tannav, obviously McKinnon scores yesterday, but he's getting all those matchup minutes and doing pretty well considering. Big Chris Tanna fan over here. Considering that it's Nathan McKinnett, yes. And that he's hurt and lost another tooth. Absolutely. Anyways. Which series do you think is a better chance to go seven?

Colorado, Dallas or Rangers Cains? Rangers Cains. And that's just because I think Dallas is going to get the job done. And I think

The trailing team has home ice in both of those series. The Cains have been very good at home. Like they're, you know, I don't want to say the heavy favorites,

but their odds at winning at home are far better. So, and I do think that the stars will take care of business. So I'm going to say that the Canes Rangers go to seven. Sean, what do you think? I pick the Rangers to win tonight in our, in our little pick pool that we published on the site. So I'll stick with that.

But, man, I just want one game seven. That's it. And I'll say it's Starzav. Let's say Starzavs. What about Bruins? Panthers. Do you think that goes seven? No. I don't.

I think there's a big gap between ultimately between I think the series with the best odds at going seven is probably Canucks Oilers. Goaltending, baby. Yeah. So we'll talk about the next two. Producer Jeff just said if that's here, if Boston, Florida goes to seven,

Maurice is going to... Oh, look out. Look out. There's going to be so much profanity. We got a bad. ass in the room. And guess what? He's going to swear even if it doesn't. Yeah, that's true. Something tells me.

That's just how he rolls. Yeah. Okay, let's take a break. When we come back, we're going to tee up the games coming up on Thursday, and that's Rangers Canes. Oilers Canucks. We'll be right back on the athletic hockey show. All right.

So Max hinted a little bit here at do we think there's going to be a game seven? I think so. Let's talk about it a little bit more. After starting the second round with three straight losses, the hurricanes have made a series here against the New York Rangers wins in games four and five game six tonight they're going to look to force game seven the Rangers

look to end this series and make it to the Eastern Conference final. The Rangers don't want to come back here because it's going to be help. Oh well it's we got everybody knows this is a pretty loud billing and any type of game but obviously a big game like this it's I'm sure it'll be very emotional. I think

we all expected this series to be close and it was technically the first three games were all one goal games but the first three games were also won by the Rangers, which I think is what people didn't expect. I think maybe we thought it would be a little bit, I don't know, two one or whatever, not the way that it went.

But I think it's closer now, and this is the kind of series we expected. What do you guys think? I mean, this is just like, this is almost the platonic ideal of like a Rangers Hurricanes series. Like this is, like, was I expecting it to be 3-0? No.

But if you would have told me, you know, we're coming into game six, the Rangers are up, three, two, because, you know, the gains couldn't turn process into results in three games. I say like, yeah, that sounds about, that sounds about right. Like, again, this is similar to, I guess, what we talked about with McCar's season. this has the sequencing been off a little bit like yeah but the rangers being up three two going into game six like not surprised by any of that and i'm not surprised by you know ultimately that like

some of the through lines for the series right which is boy uh can why can't aho and svechnakov and gensel score together and like boy the the rangers power play is lethal and da da da like those are all things that we could have guessed would would be coming here so i'm i'm not surprised i was surprised to see the Rangers go up 3-0. I'm not surprised to see them up 3-2 going to game 6, so that makes sense. Yeah, and I do think to Haley's point before the break, like how good Carolina is at home. I almost expect 7 at this point. And I just wonder psychologically, having let the 3-0 slip. Like, I think that there are some mentally tough guys on the Rangers. I don't think Vincent Trocheck's going to be intimidated by that. I don't think Jacob Trub was going

to be intimidated by that, all that. But I do wonder about the overall psychological impact if you have to play a game seven after having it all right there in your fingers. And so that's kind of where my head's at at this point is just that, you know, I almost even skip over the X's and O's and the hockey and all that of it and just think about, you know, what that would be like mentally. Right. Usually you'd think that 3-0 series lead is a done deal,

but the Keynes have a chance to make it pretty interesting. Obviously, they need to win game six here to make that happen. And I think as Sean mentioned, I guess one of the bigger conversation points has been the hurricane's top line. I guess on paper looks like it should be, you know, world beaters, but they haven't really been producing together at five on five in the way that you would have expected when, you know, of course you acquired Jake Gensel. You want to put him on that top line with Sebastian Ajo and Andres Fetchnikov. But they're not exactly just, you know, sitting back. and watching them put pucks in the back of the net. And God knows I'm fine using expected goals all the time, right?

It's a big part of analysis for a lot of people, including me. But over the course of a series, when the sample size is that small, it loses utility for me. I like using it over the course of months, over a full season, over whatever, but I don't think it helps. I don't think you can look at expected goals for the hurricanes and necessarily just assume that, you know, more is coming in the series, right? Because it doesn't hit, oh, in a single game, expected goals in a lot of ways is like about mischances. And it's in it over the long arc of the season,

it comes out in the wash. But in a seven gamer, in a seven gamer man, I'm not, I'm much less interested in that. Are you also, Sean, I was wonder this.

Do you treat Carolina players specifically with a little dose of skepticism on the expected goals? spec because like when you look at their even their regular season this year, they got four players below 52% expected goals share, which is obviously a testament to having a lot of good players for sure, but it's also, to me, it speaks to something deeper because most teams you see a guy with that kind of expected goal share. And you're like, that's a, that's, wow, that guy's really doing a great job for them. And I do think the way that they play, they put a lot of shots on that, even when their small XG hits, they add up over the course of a game. I've kind of ironically, because Carolina is like

the team that advanced stats, I guess, like, kind of are made to measure. They are, to me, I've treated them with a little bit of like, yeah, but it's that in Carolina. Like, how much do I, do I give that the same validity as if that was the number on a guy in Colorado, for example? Yeah, well, I think at some point, you just, you start looking at the actual goal differential, right? And I think what's made that line pretty baffling is you watch them and they look great and you look at the expected goals, like they're, I mean, like, they're, like, they're,

shot share rate is 65%. Their chances for is 67%. Their XG is 62, but in terms of like actual production, they are being outscored four to three. Gensel Aho and Svetchnikov have combined for nine goals in 10 games in the postseason, but only three are as a line at 5-1-5. So at some point, it's not even like a skepticism with their XG. It's like, what are their actual goal numbers looking like. You know, I think you look at the, I'm trying to think of like, it's not even a great comparable because they're expected goals. Actually, this is fine.

The Colorado line that was Natchewski-McKinnon and Rantan, their expected goal rate was under 50%. Just by a little bit. It was 49.6, but they were outscoring teams 6 to 2. So I think at some point you have to stop looking at the XG and you have to look at what they're actually doing in terms of production. But that actually is, are things that you're actually doing, right?

I think like, they're not made up. It's just, it's a probability, right? But it doesn't win you a playoff game. No, it doesn't. Clearly, right? My thought on, my thought on all of this,

and like the hurricanes are different now than they were a year ago and certainly versus what they were three years ago. But I still think the priority there, and there's nothing wrong with this, they prioritize volume, I think, in a way that a lot of other teams don't. And I think that you run into trouble with that when you're going against either an elite goaltender

or one who's playing out of his mind, right? And I think that's kind of what we have here, again, with them against the Rangers, is that it's different for Igor Shusirkin to, when it's like you have whatever, or 3.95 expected goals, how many of those are like 10 bell chances and how many of them are like,

it's like dropping a, dropping a penny in the bucket. And I think an elite goaltender who's locked in is much more susceptible to dealing with the, you know, kill them with volume and kill them with quantity versus quality. I don't think that's a bad thing. I think that's generally a good way to build a hockey team.

I completely believe that. but, you know, there is, there's nothing, nothing's perfect and nothing's foolproof. And when you're talking about, you know, just wearing teams down over the course of a, over the course of a game, that sounds great. But when the goaltender's killing it, you know, for sure. And the flip side of that is at the other end of the ice, right? Like the thing that I always come back to in defense of the canes that way is that, yeah, they do always win the expected goal share. Part of that's the defensive end. They clog the middle as well as anybody.

It's really hard to find favorable ice against them. The flip side of that is that, you know, their goalie has to save all those same easy chances be in rhythm. And they've very seldom gotten that kind of goaltending in the playoffs. I know there's some reason for Hope with Anderson. He's kind of bounced back and forth between, you know, being like Kane's goalies of old and being kind of like the guy we saw down the stretch. But I do think, you know, it's maybe the biggest oversimplification ever. But so much of it does come back down to goaltending to when we're talking about that gap. Yeah.

And I like, I'm not to, you know, have the conversation about the XG and stuff. Like, I'm not an advanced analytics hater either. I'm not someone who's just like, oh, who cares about Corsi? But I think. I do think who cares about Corsi? Well, I don't, who cares about XG? I think we know that like expected goal numbers and shot share at five on five is often like, you know, a good indicator of, you know, the process, maybe not the result. We know that they're playing well together in your eye test.

You watch the canes and you watch that line. It's like, hey, look great, which is what makes it kind of like, why aren't they scoring? And I think Sean makes the great point about like, well, let's consider who they're trying to beat. I also just don't really love the nitpick of this in the sense of like, and I know we just had this conversation. It feels weird to make it seem like Jake Gensel isn't playing well when like he's doing exactly what they needed him to for goals, nine. points. Three of those goals have come in the last two games, or the last three games, excuse me, against the Rangers. And as we said, nine goals combined between those three. So it kind of just feels like, well, they're scoring, but they're not scoring in this one

specific spot that we can isolate and therefore it's a problem. So it feels like a little bit of a nitpick on the canes, but also, and we can have this conversation. Sean, I know you mentioned this off air about Elias Pedersen, like at what point are we allowed to kind of criticize or nitpick the Canes because obviously they're still down in the series and it wasn't

working in the first three games. So anyways, should we move on to the next series? You guys have another Kane's thought? A Rangers thought? I just keep going back to how glad I am that this series normalized a little bit and we're getting more games there

because, you know, a sweep or a five-gamer would have been tragic given how good both these teams are and how honestly fun both them are to watch. There's so much to like about this series. You have just contrasting styles and a bunch of start players and all that stuff. It would have stunk if this one would have been over, you know,

on Tuesday or what have you. Yeah. Yeah, if you flip that game four and you end up with a four-game sweep where every game was a one goal loss and two of them went to overtime, you feel like you got short change you get cheated a little bit I'm glad I'm glad that it's glad that that's not the case

I think we're gonna see seven here I think a trend we're seeing too on the Rangers side of things to you know look at another top line combo is the Panarin Trocheque Lafranier trio which were a huge part of the Ranger's success in those first three games haven't been as great

in games four and five there were dash two and Panarin and Trocheque were kept off the score sheet So that's something where it's like, okay, well, Keynes have adjusted to do a better job trying to shut that line down. Goaltending has gotten better in the last few games. So I think we can probably expect pretty good top line duel in game six, like between that Trocheque, Panera and Lafrania, Aho, Gensel, Svetnikov trio. Let's go on to the next game for today, which is Canucks Oilers.

that series is tied at 2, 2 or at best of 3 now here. I think the big question for me heading into this game before we kind of have the Elias Pedersen conversation is if you're the Edmonton Oilers, do you go back to Calvin Pickard? He looked like a guy that had played 100 playoff games, composed, really solid. You know, that's not a guy who's nervous at all.

He's enjoying him. Or do you tap Stuart Skinner and give him? a vote of confidence and say let's see what you can do. You have to go back to Pickard here. He played great for you in the last game. I don't think you give him

eternal rain over that net. But coming off a game like that, you have to go back to him, I think. We talked to Frankie about that yesterday, too. He was firmly in the camp of like you can't it's like not even a consideration. Right. If you're

if you're Chris Knoblock, then you got to do what you got to do post game. You got to play the long game too. You don't want to completely bury Stuart Skinner publicly or whatever. You don't want to be dismissive of the concept, I guess, when you're talking about media or speaking on television or whatever. You can't just, that's not a smart move, right, if you're Chris Knoblock. But like, for the guys on that roster and in that room and who are playing in those games,

like you, I think you got to just shut the door, honestly. And just be like, yeah, this, like, the, what's important is that the oilers know the Calvin Pickard's the guy. I don't think it really matters what, what, uh, what Chris Knoblock says publicly, right? Like, what's important is that the dudes in the room are, are aware that this guy's getting an, getting another shot and, uh, and you kind of take it from there. This is a franchise that's been like uniquely plagued by spotty playoff goaltending for the duration of their stars prime here.

And I think if they get good goaltending, you just owe it to them to ride the hot hand until you have to make a change. It's a bad spot to be and to not have like a, you know, the Bruins can always go back to, you know, Allmark if Swayman falters or whatever. It's a bad spot that you don't feel like there's another good option. But when when you have an option that's playing well, you just can't go away from it. There's also probably an element to wonder like, did the oilers step up in a way different? differently because they knew that they had Calvin Pickard in that, you know, like, were they like,

okay, he's 32. He's making his playoff debut. Obviously, you want to step up because if you lose, you're on the brink of elimination, right? You put yourself in a terrible spot, but there's always that, as you were talking about the mental side of things, Max, you wonder, like, okay, we need to clean it up on the other side of the puck because we can't leave this guy out to dry and his huge debut. Like, we need to be better. We haven't been good enough in front of Stuart Skinner. It was an 877, and save percentage to the playoffs. So that can always be a little shakeup for the skaters in front of the goalie too. They definitely played better.

I know the end of that game got a little wild. It was so late. I'm watching that. I even tweeted just like, oh my God, why did I think that I was going to be able to go to sleep? Why did the Canucks just tie it up? So it got a little dicey in the end.

But that was a better performance in front of the goalie. And you always have to wonder, does that play a role? And you know you've got a journeyman behind you and you want to do good. for your guy. It's just such a tough needle to thread because you want guys playing with confidence, but you also,

which, you know, do you don't want them, you don't want them afraid to make a mistake, but you also want, and I think, I think this is kind of what we have. Like,

okay, everybody wants to win the game for Calvin Pickard, but how much is that, how much with that in mind, how much does that get you away from the game that you want to play? Like, it's fascinating, honestly,

like the, the mind games or the mental element of the goalie decisions. And I think we're seeing a pretty good example of that here. And also when Stuart Skinner got pulled in the second period of game three, he'd allowed 12 goals on 58 shots, which is a foul 793 save percentage. So I just, yeah, I feel like I opened up with a stupid question. I'm not going to lie.

I don't think so. I don't think so because I think it's important that you, because Calvin Pickard, you said it. This isn't Lena Solmark. This isn't Jeremy Swayman. This isn't that kind of work, that kind of work division. You got to make sure that Stuart Skinner is in the right spot to come in if you need

them again because he might need to come back for games. You might need to come back in. So you got to make sure you preserve, you know, that part of things. and that you can that you make sure that you're doing everything you can to keep him in the right mental space and all that sort of stuff and just burying them and being like no we can't do it publicly like after that game like that's not an option either even though everybody in their mother who was watching no blocks post game knew that you know we're seeing we're seeing pickard here no question yeah i think it's also worth mentioning um and you know this is shocking for you know i'm sure oilers fans i can imagine we're feeling very vindicated from their couches. After watching Nurse and C.C. get just caved. They switched those deep hairs

around and they were much better without each other. Darnell Nurse specifically was much better without Cody C.C. So that feels like one of those things when you're a fan. You're just like, yeah, hello, finally. Imagine that. Like we knew this was going to happen. So I think the deep hair shake up

and the defensive play was better. But like Calvin Picker did his job and he's probably if we get to decide, he gets another shot, and I'm sure that Chris Knoblock is going to do the same. Looking at the Vancouver Canucks here, guys, I don't want to pile on, but I feel like the big conversation point in Vancouver right now is Elias Pedersen. He's not producing Rick Tocket kind of called the guys out. There was two different ones that I, two different thoughts from Rick Tockett.

out to me. Someone asked, what do you, what do you make of the Leeus Pedersen's game? And he said, I don't know what to say. And then he had the bigger quote, we need five or six guys to get going here. I mean, it's the Stanley Cup playoffs. I, some guys I don't know if they thought it was the playoffs. So we can't play with 12 guys. I just, oof. But if Pedersen hasn't been producing in the postseason. So what do you guys

think? What, uh, what's going on with Leeus Pedersen, what needs to change? I mean, I think it's all right there, right? Like, by the time it gets out to us, like, I'm sure that this is, this is not a, it's really not even up for debate by the time the coach is calling out his star player. That means it's really set in, you know, and watching the game. I thought Pedersen's third period the other night was, was reasonable enough. Like, he was on the puck.

He had a couple shots. But you want to see your star player, especially the one you just signed to this huge money extension make more of an impact than this in the playoffs. And he's a skinny player. I get that there's a little bit of the kind of the playoff hockey booky man here that could creep into this narrative. But I think it's completely within Elias Pedersen's capabilities to play better than he has.

I don't think this is a doomed situation for him. We're seeing, my God, it's like it's, we're seeing take polarization on both sides. to this, right? Where it's like everybody is either, it's either, Elias Patterson is, you know, soft and whatever, or versus, uh, he's actually, none of this is his fault, which is crazy. Like you, this guy, this guy makes 11.5 million dollars. Ultimately, you know, he is the, he is his line. Everyone was like, it's Sam Lafferty. It's, uh, it's, uh, it's Ilia Makayev. Like, no. when you're paid at that level,

when you have a history of producing at that level, you make the other guys around you better. Does that mean that he's got ideal help? Like, absolutely not, right? Like, Ilya, like, Elymechia is one goal in his last 60. Like, right, like, it's just not, like, those aren't players. Macayev and Sam Lafferty have combined for four goals in their last 75 games. So, like, I push.

To Sean's point, Sydney Crosby has made a entire reputation off of playing with people that no one has ever heard of and making them into big time playoff performers. Not to take away all the credit and agency from those players, but it was like the literal meme is that like, you know, Mark Donk or whatever, right? Yeah, I agree. Who the hell is Brian Rust? But the Mark Donk in the Buzz Flibbitts ended up being Brian Rust and Jake Gensel. Right. Right.

Sherry and like they're they were random guys I've I've I've I've fought in the Coonis wars for years I don't know if I can if I can bring that one up don't even say anything about Chris Coonitz and I never would I was I do know how much don't you dare I spent an entire Olympic roster selection cycle getting screamed at for suggesting that they should just that they in fact should play Chris Coonitz with with Sydney Crosby. Like, I'm, this is a pro Chris Cronitz. Pro Chris Cunit space.

The random guys that Sydney Crosby has and like I, I hate to criticize Sydney Crosby in any capacity. They're not Sam Laffertie. And guess what? They tried to play Sydney Crosby with Sam Laffrey a couple times and it didn't work out that well. Okay. Sorry, Max.

It's one thing. You can take, you can take like younger HL callups who have some skill and seem like they should be 20 goal guys in L. them. Like, that's one thing. And I think that's, in a lot of ways, what we talk about historically with Crosby. That is not what Elias Pedersen has. Ilya and Sam Lafferty are bottom six, you know, uh, dudes who, who are right now skating with a guy who also can't make them better at all. That's the problem. Wait, I'm confused. So are you saying that his linemates are a problem? Or are you saying that Elias Pedersen is a problem? I'm saying it's all true. I'm saying, I'm saying,

you agree with both sides. You're fence. I'm saying it's a mess of a situation for Vancouver. because you have a guy who's clearly playing without confidence, a guy who clearly isn't playing remotely near his capabilities, someone who might be injured, which is what everybody is like speculating over, because you see the way, you know, he goes out there each shift. You're like, what is going on here?

Yeah. But then on top of that, like you're getting 60% Aaliyos Pedersen. And then to make matters worse, you're playing them with guys who aren't any good. Like, and there's no, And there's no simple answer there.

And he's playing against Evan Bouchard in Lindelm, who were, who were, or Echholm, excuse me, Matthias Echolm, who were, who were really, really good players. So he's in it right now. But he's also getting five on five matchups against Ryan McLeod. I'm not trying to make excuse. He's not got. This is exactly what, this is exactly what I'm saying. There are like extenuating circumstances. Yeah.

They're extenuating circumstances, you know, that are that are not helping, Elias Pedersen out. Yeah. Max, what do you think? One reason that Crosby gets to play with the offensive wingers and Pederson is playing with McKayev and Lafferty is because Crosby does a ton of offensive dirty work down low and wins pucks. And so he can be the guy that goes and wins pucks and distributes to against.

So distributes to a Sherry, distributes to a Brian Russ kind of thing. With Patterson, you have to play him, I think, with guys who have a little more of that heaviness because it's not the default of his game to go win a bunch of pucks down below the goal line and set it all up, right? You have guys digging pucks out for him. And so you get the guys who dig pucks out more than the guys who finish plays. Is that a completely unrealistic way to view it? So this is, I think what, and to Sean's point, too, like, this is what makes the

Elias Pedersen conversation kind of complex because, yeah, you would think that that would work, but also when you think of what makes Elias Pedersen an elite player, like, it's not that he's, like, the fastest or most, like, powerful player. he's really smart. Like he's got skill. He's got elite IQ. He's a good defensive player. He is.

Right. He's a very intelligent player. And like he's got a great shot. But I think what like when Elias Pedersen's playing his best, he's like making great plays in the ozone. So when the puck is on his stick, who is he making that great pass to? And that goes back to the Sam Lafferty conversation.

Like it's great that Sam Lafferty can dig puck's out. And I know that in the postseason, a lot of things. happen along the walls and there's a battle that needs to be had. But like when he has the puck on a stick and he's making a play, he's passing to a guy that has combined with his other line made for four goals in the last 75. So it's one of those things where like, that's the definition of being a passenger though, right? Like you're going to, you're going to not go win those pucks yourself and you're going to say, who am I supposed to pass to?

You just want to do the one thing. Like it has to be some give and take there. You can either be forward that's like, I'm a supporting winger. It's what my job is. I play off. off of the guys I'm with. And I don't think any of us think that's what Alias Pedersen is. Or you can be like the driving center. And sometimes that means that you have to do the dirty work so that you can play with those more like little more one dimensional if we're honest kind of winged. I guess you can play them with like Garland and Joshua.

And I think that would work. They're a higher skill version of what he's with right now who do a lot of dirty work. Like you could do that. But why would you break up that line that's going so well with Lindholm right now? right? Like if it were me, what I would try to do is I'd pop them up on the wing next to JT Miller and next to Besser, see what happens if you reunite those three. But it puts you in a bad spot then where you're going to, you know, put P.U. Souter in that spot. And I don't think that line becomes nearly as scary of a matchup. Any line that has Pedersen, Edmonton has to think that

Peterson can kill them on a given shift. If you swap them with P.U. Suter like I'm kind of talking about here, that risk is really mitigated. So that's the sticky spot you're in. But I do think it comes down to if you want to complain about not having skilled wingers around you you got to play like the dirty mucket up player that can allow skilled players run. If you're going to play like just like a skilled guy who's going to facilitate from the outside, you have to be okay with with mucket up players on your line. I think what makes this conversation interesting is that it's not just as like one dimensional or as simple as saying like why is like as the Mitch Marner conversation, which is like this guy just like can't do it. I think there's a little bit more going on with with the

Pederson thing here. And I think you're right, Max, like, and I think what I did appreciate, there was an accountability factor. Like, it was an off day, and Pedersen was the guy who kind of went out and did, did a media veil, and he took a lot of questions about his play and about linemates, and someone

asked him, like, point blank, like, do you think that it's going to, it's impacting your game, like, who you're playing with? Do you think you'll play better, if you're with better players? And he was like, yeah, maybe it could help, but like, I need to be better. I want to be the difference maker and I'm not doing that. So I can appreciate that Pedersen came out and kind of face the music. I think that's something that wouldn't always happen in previous iteration.

So I don't know if that was Pedersen wanting to do it. If that was Rick Tock being like, get out there and answer some goddamn questions. But like I don't think we would always see Pedersen come out and take, you know, six, 10 minutes of like, why are you playing like this questions, you know,

in years before? So. Yeah, it's just it. And I think all of this speaks to how much of a problem it is. Like, because there is no magic bullet solution. Like, it's not just as simple.

If you're Elias Pedersen, you're like, hey, just go out and play better. Guess what? You still have a bunch, you have two dudes who can't score on the wing, which is a problem.

Yeah. But also, like, it's a chicken or the egg argument. And those are not good ones to have in round two of the playoffs. Because it's both and it's neither and it's all and it's nothing. Because Elias Pedersen can be better. This is true.

It would be easier for him to be better if you weren't playing with Ilya and Sam Lafferty. Also true. Doesn't have any other options because you can't break out, you can't break up the Lindelm Garland Joshua line because they're, they're phenomenal right now. And you don't want to screw with the Miller-Bessor chemistry either, right? I know that line wasn't great in the last game.

either. I know Rick Tocket had the little quote of like J.T. Miller texted me to apologize for his game last night. But I still don't think it was maybe egregious enough to break it out. You should, you should be able to rely on Elias Pedersen to have a game or two or three with anybody on his wing and be productive there, right? Like over the course of a full series, I think that, I think that's a big ask. You need to get more than what you've seen from him. But also like, there's a cap on what you can get just because of how just because of how brutal those guys are. Honestly, it's a bad situation. To me, the model for him is like a Pavlatsuk, right?

Like not the best skater, but crazy skill, really smart, has it in him to be this two-way guy, despite not having the body of your typical, you know, two-way guy and still be really effective. I think that's more than within his capabilities. For sure. All right. Oh, Sean, do you have something? They should have brought in the castle. This would all then fix if you could just play Phil. with with Patterson.

I wonder what happened there. Did he just not pass physicals? He just didn't look good. They saw him skate. A few times were like, never mind. Seems like it. All right, guys,

let's take a quick break. When we come back, we'll have the third and final segment of the athletic hockey show. All right, guys, so we're going to do a really quick PWHL air fryer here. It's been the PWHL playoffs.

We all made our picks beginning of the season when we did our preview. I've been kind of sitting back and watching everything because I picked New York to win. They did win the first overall pick. So Sarah Filier, you are a PWHL, New York, da-da,

like we don't know the name yet. So it kind of loses its fun there. But Boston advances to the final after a sweep of Montreal, which was pretty shocking. Dom's model had a 9% chance of that happening. So, Sean, congratulations. You know who is not shocked by that outcome?

It's me. Yeah. They pick PWHL Boston at the start of all this. Yeah. I just want to say that I picked them before I did the show with you guys. And I just wanted to give Sean the Boston team to be nice. Excuse excuses. You were trying to cover all your bases so that you had you had picked every team and a different.

It's not hard when there's only six. And you talked about this league as much as you do. Yeah, I did seven pregame preview shows. and I picked a different team every time. But I picked Boston twice, I promise. But Boston's really come alive. American, I don't know, I said American Frankel. True.

American legend, Karen Frankl has been unbelievable. But on the other side of the bracket, Toronto lost to Minnesota last night. In game four, Minnesota forces a game five. Also American goalie Maddie Rooney has been unbelievable. So this whole playoffs and the PWHL has been really goaly heavy. But a big loss for Max who picked Toronto, Natalie Spooner out for the season.

She's probably going to win the MVP. She was my vote. I got a ballot. I don't know if I'm allowed to say that yet. But he made a separate segment. You get a little treat. I think people are aware that you had a ballot. I think she means not aware of who she voted.

Yeah. But when you're a goal per game player, it's also not that hard to figure that one out. But I will say, the reason that I picked Toronto at the start of all this was because of Renata Fas and Jocelyn the Rock. Last I checked, they're still very much healthy. Although if they continue to play 35 minutes a night, we'll see how they hold up. But they're still intact.

I'm still good. I'm still good with that thing. And you know what? Like they're used to doing that. I think that's why that was the reason why Gina Kingsbury took Jocelerock at second overall, because all she's ever done is just eat minutes in like the most important times of the year. Like you get Renata fast and she's great. But then when you put Jocin the Rock beside her and it's just like, okay, 30 minutes a night,

go do your thing, we're good. So yeah, Max is looking pretty smart. But Natalie Spooner's been unbelievable this year and that's a pretty big loss for Toronto. Who's been, who went from having the best offense in the PWHL, the most goals, great top six. to being shut out for 145 minutes at this point. And a lot of that is because of Maddie Rooney. So Minnesota making it interesting. If PWHL Toronto begins its existence by blowing a 2-0 playoff lead,

they officially become a professional Toronto hockey team, even more so than they already are. I think the news that Spooners out was like the realization for a lot of people that Toronto might actually be cursed. And there's, you know. I don't know if they have a ready-made replacement for her on their roster. You're not going to be able to drop in a player and be like, hey, all right, you're in for the player who led the league in goals.

Like, good luck. Well, there isn't a ready-made replacement, but also Sarah Nurse was second in the league in scoring, and she hasn't scored yet in the postseason. So there's an element of she needs to step up. And I think in terms of, it's so hard because there is no Natalie Spooner, like she is the best and most dominant power forward in the league. But I think Emma Maltay, they both went to Ohio State.

And Spooner's like 510 and Maltay is maybe 5'3 on skates. So they're like polar opposites, but they do play a similar style in terms of the net front presence. And Spooner is a big Emma Maltay fan and says she's tiny, but she plays like she's 5'10 like me. So you would think that MAMLte is going to try to take over a little bit of that gritty net front presence role. But it's going to be tough. Their secondary scoring hasn't been there. And yeah, you can't just take someone from your third or fourth line and put them up on the top line and say like you're here in the spooner spot now.

So we'll see game five on Friday for Toronto and Minnesota and whoever wins gets to go to the final against PWHL Boston. So Max and Sean, you guys are still in it. and I'm waiting for the draft. Enjoy. Yeah, should be great. Honestly, a year ago, I didn't know if I'd be coming back. That's when it was diagnosed that I had cancer. It had metastasized as prostate cancer.

And it had gone through my body. Still is, it's not the kind of cancer where you ring a bell. So it's still in the base of my skull, my ribs, my legs, hips, and stuff like that. But it's treatable. And I feel really, really good. And the place that I feel best is right here. And before we end the show, we just wanted to extend our deepest condolences to the family of Darren Detitian who passed away. Today, he was a long time Tysn SportsCenter anchor.

I'm Canadian, so I had the privilege of growing up with Darren Detitian in my living room on my television every single morning on the loop. Him and Jennifer Hedger were two of the people that made me want to be in this industry. I didn't get to know Darren that much. But anytime we did cross paths, just like a larger than life, bright personality, his energy on television came through. Like he was the, he's like the perfect sports center loop anchor. He's everything you wanted a broadcaster to be. And he was so helpful to young people in this industry. So we just wanted to say, rest in peace, Darren, our condolences are with your family members, with his partner,

and it's just devastating news in the Canadian sport media world. He was just a legend in this space. And it's a really sad day for his friends and family and everybody who had the privilege of watching him every day. So thanks everyone on that note for listening to The Athletic Hockey Show. The next show is going to be with Max, Corey, Scott Wheeler, Chris Peters on the Prospect Series. Tomorrow, that's Friday here at the Athletic Hockey Show. Thanks everyone for listening.