The Athletic Hockey Show - The Kings and Ducks strengthen their rosters in the west and are the Red Wings and Senators poised to crack the top 8 in the East?

Episode Date: July 12, 2023

On the Wednesday roundtable, Rob Pizzo and Joe Smith discuss the Alex DeBrincat trade to Detroit from Ottawa, how the Red Wings and Senators time to make noise in the East is now, how the Lightning and Bruins perhaps will take a step back next season and Nick Foligno and Corey Perry mentoring Connor Bedard in Chicago.Eric Stephens joins Rob and Joe to profile a very active off-season for the Los Angeles Kings and Anaheim Ducks, including Pierre Luc Dubois joining the Kings and Alex Killorn and Radko Gudas signing with the Ducks.Plus the guys take a look at some of the still unsigned free agents, including Matt Dumba, Jonathan Toews and Patrick Kane and we stick tap the careers of Michael Stone and Patric Hörnqvist. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Stick around until the end of today's episode to hear the opening segment of the Athletic's newest narrative podcast, the play callers, where Jordan Roderig takes you inside the dynamics of the NFL's youngest coaching family, the Kyle Shanahan, Sean McVadry, with exclusive interviews with four head coaches and all your favorite sports personalities. Find all five episodes on the athletic football show feed wherever you're listening to this podcast. This is the athletic hockey show. What's going on, everybody? the athletic hockey show, the Wednesday Roundtable Edition. I am Rob Beasel from CBC Sports, working hard in the summer, unlike my co-hosts. You got married today. Yeah, no Jesse Granger, no Russo. You're allowed to get married.

All right, you're allowed to get married. Granger's on his honeymoon. Rousseau's gallivanting around Italy, which is fine. It's the summer, and it's a good excuse to get Joe Smith on to co-host with me today. How are you, man? Doing well, doing well. Hopefully, like, Rousseau brings back some wine for us, you know, I'm guessing, you know, in this huge tour with him in La Panta and 34 wild fans and stuff like that, it's going to be an interesting one, all the galvacting through Europe. But some good wine, I could see him bringing back wine and then giving us the shitty wine. Any wine is good. That's very true. So, yes, I hope they're listening somewhere, wherever they are because I know Rousseau, like he said, is going to be doing a little bit of traveling.

and, well, Granger, don't be listening to Ask Granger. Enjoy your honeymoon. You only get one, two at most. So that's a solid of a little hockey, Joe. What do you think? We got quite a bit coming up, even though it's the offices. I want to ask you this, because before we get into it, real quick, this is always the first week for me that I feel like summer kind of hits for guys like us.

Because even when, you know, the Stanley Cup's awarded, I start thinking about, okay, we got the draft, we got free agency, we got everything else. draft is done. Free agency is quote unquote done. Yes, there are still guys out there, but, you know, the wave, the initial wave is done. This is kind of the first week where I kind of go, oh, look, sun's out. Hey, maybe I should get outside a little bit. What about you as a guy who does this for a living? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the last three years before this, you know, I was working up until the draft and the cup finals, right? And then you always have the draft and you have free agency and then you have the first few days of free agency. So that's like, you don't really fully you start it until mid-July. I around this time, which is a beautiful time here in Minnesota. So I'm appreciating that fact. But yeah, I think, you know, executives and teams are still working a little bit now. I think towards the end of this month, it'll start getting, you know, really dark and quiet, which is good for sports fighters and podcasters alike.

But, of course, the arbitration hearing for Philip Gustafson, the wild goalie, is August 4th. The last possible day. So that gives something to think about or wonder about for a few more weeks. So thanks to NHL and NHLP8 for scheduling the last possible day of the NHL off season. I love that you say it's good for podcasters and stuff. It's actually not great because there are going to be times, because we keep doing this show, there are going to be times where we're going, what do you guys want to talk about today? Not much news because everybody goes into their summer mode, but we've got news to talk about today.

Ottawa. We're going to talk a little bit about Ottawa in a couple different ways because obviously the main news that the brinket trade finally happened. Ottawa pulling off the deal with no shocker here, Detroit. We kind of figured that was one of the front runners. He is from Michigan. He wanted to go to Detroit. I know the deal's already kind of been broken down, left, right, and center, but your initial thoughts on the return.

I loved Ian Mendez's quote in his piece where he said for Ottawa fans, it was, quote, not terrible, but certainly not great either. I thought that was a perfect analysis for that. Yeah, it's kind of like the meh button they put out in the bottom of our stories of the athletic. It was kind of one of those things. Like, they got something for him and clearly didn't have a lot of leverage. Like, they knew he wasn't going to sign there long term.

But I feel like Detroit got a really good end of this deal. Not only getting the drink, it, when they need an elite score in their lineup, they didn't give up an awful lot. I mean, obviously, conditional first-round pick and Kubileaks is a good, a nice young player. But they also got him to a four-year deal versus, like, signing them to an eight-year deal. And they have flexibility. It would be really important in the stage of their rebuild. So they got them for four years under, I think, under eight million.

And so I think it's a stealth move by Steve Weirson with the Red Wings, who I think, you know, we're talking about people who have pressure on them and Pierre Dorian's one of them. Like, I know Aiserman could probably be there for 20 years and be fine, but it's still like year 7 or so, like the rebuild there. You know, year 5, 6, 7 and they want to be competitive. And I've been in that market before I grew up in Detroit. I know how important, you know, the team is and being in the playoffs 25 straight years that people took for granted for so long.

So I think that that deal obviously is going to be a big boost and kind of signal to the team that they have there, like, hey, they want to be competitive now in an East, in an Atlantic division that's kind of an interesting transition right now. They needed a score and they got a score. Like sometimes, you know, we overcomplicate a GM's job. Sometimes you just got to look at what you need. Like you're going to a grocery store. What do I need?

I need milk. I need eggs. You go out and you get milk and you get eggs. They haven't had a 40 goal scorer in a long time. Marion Hosa at 09. De Brink gets done it twice over the last five years. So you put him in the right situation and 40 goals is very. is very much a legitimate request or expectation for him.

They sign Comfer, they sign strong. So you look at what Detroit's doing. We'll get back to Ottawa in a second, but you kind of pivoted to Detroit there. If you're a Red Wing fan, and you're right, I grew up a Red Wing fan. I mean, if I could turn my camera a little bit to the right here, I've got an autographed Eisenman, Jersey.

We were spoiled as Red Wing fans for so long, because without the cap and just with Smart Scouting, this team was constantly rebuilding while excelling at the same time. And we just don't necessarily see that anymore, do we? We don't. And like, I remember growing up and then, you know, all of a sudden, oh, yeah, we got Lou Geh-Robatai sign here.

And got, they required Brendan Shanahan. And like, Brett Hall's coming. You know, like the cap meant nothing to nobody at that point, right? So it was just kind of a fun free agency. Like, oh, they lost couple players. That's all right. Well, still finding the Datsukes and the Zettabergs of the world. Oh, those drafts.

Yeah, the drafts that they got those. guys and they built their foundation of their team for like those guys were there for 12, 15. Listern was there for like 100 years it felt like. So I think that like you're right, they were, they're immediate of a score, they got one. I think Max Baldwin put it in his article. And they lost 18 games by one goal last year. And then that won't change the whole entire script. But when you need a game breaker to do something, those one goal games all of a sudden become

looser points or become an extra point here and there. And then you get up to the 90-something point range. And all of a sudden, you're the Florida Panthers. Sweeking in and then who knows what happens. Back to Ottawa. You got to wonder a couple things. First off, Teresenko's still out there. And his name has been linked to the Ottawa senators.

I'm wondering if this just clears the way for Pierre Dorian to really put the foot on the gas and trying to get Teresanko to Ottawa. I mean, I think that would be the next segue, right? I mean, they're clearly in a position where they want to compete. They feel pressure to compete. you know how long period Dorian's been there. There's ownership change. There's going to be some pressure there to make it run. Like last year, we were talking last summer.

They were like a sweetheart pick to make the playoffs last year. After getting to brinket, they got Claudeauroo. Like they were adding up, they were like the summer winners, weren't they? In a lot of circumstances, you're like, oh, okay, the division, those guys, like, you know, Eichmann's like Ottawa and Buffalo are ahead of us right now. And we thought that was going to be the case. So I think a initial pivot to Caracenco or somewhere like that, I can, I think, I I think it's a really good young team. I think they have some game breakers there. So I just,

you just wonder what among those teams that are below the Tampa's, Boston's, and Toronto's can make them extra leap into that top three. I think given everything you just said, and the fact that you're under new ownership with Michael Landlauer and the moves that we've seen even over the last couple of weeks, I mean, they parted ways with Trent Mann, their assistant general manager, their president of business operations, Anthony LeBlanc, resigned. I feel like it's funny for a non-playoff team. This team is under a lot of pressure. And Pierre Dorian is under a lot of, I'm with you.

I remember on this very show, we were praising the moves Pierre Dorian made going in the last two seasons saying to help this rebuild and to move it along quickly. And now, how much of a hot seat is he on right now? Well, anytime you have a new ownership, all bets are off, right? You know, they're going to try to find their guy, especially if a guy is like now he's a first year GM who just gives him a chance to learn and give him a chance to prove himself.

He's had a lot long track record here in that market to win or to be able to be competitive. It's been a long time. It felt like since they were in that conference final run. So, yeah, I think that's something that what the moves to me were like really weird the last couple weeks, you know, Trent Man, you know, a lot of guys, guys have been there for a while. Like, this seems like people forget that there was a lot of dysfunction with this friend. up until a year or so ago with the Melnick story that, you know, our colleagues wrote to perfectly on that one.

So I think there might still be some lingering things in the background there that this might be just a symptom of that, one guy leaving, one guy getting let go. But clearly, like you said, there's pressure on the Pierre Dorian and the whole entire front office, I think, to be able to be more competitive this year and be relevant. Before we move out of this, just sticking with the East for a second. And we talked about the Red Wings and Steve Eisenman building this winner. Built a winner, really, with that Tampa Bay team. And it's funny, the roller coaster waves we see with teams now.

And obviously the salary cap has a lot to do with this. And you're very familiar with the Tampa Bay Lightning. Are we looking at a bit of a changing of the guard in the east right now, especially when it comes to this lightning team? Are we going to see a lightning team that has dominated for so long with their back-to-back cups and their run again? is this a bit of a changing of the guard, do you think? I don't know if it's complete changing the guard.

I mean, we'll get to Boston probably soon because they're probably closer towards having some other guys age out of the program and the system there. But I don't think it's a changing the guard. I don't think, you know, Tampa's not nearly as deep as they were on those run. Just because of the salary cap, you can argue kill them more than he killed any other team because it only went up like 3 million of the course of their dynasty run there. So I think there's still going to be contender status. I thought they could beat the Leafs last year in the first round.

They played better than they did the first round the previous year when they did beat the Leafs. And I do like some of the moves they made, too. They got younger and faster in their bottom six. They lost the Maroon, Perry, Belmar line, but they got some, they got Conrishiri in there who could prove and score. And they've got Archibald and they got the younger guys that could step in. As long as you still have that core in place and they're not dinosaurs by any stretch. You have Vasilevsky, Kuturov, Headman, Cirgich, and number one,

Braden Point. they still have a cord there that's one that's capable. They're not dead tired yet. So I wouldn't say the changing of the guard. But I think the changing of the guard is coming in the East because you don't hang on to these guys for so long and be competitive for so long. So there is a little crack of an opening for the teams like Ottawa and Buffalo and Detroit to sneak in when one of those teams does have an off year or just has a rough year with injuries, right? Or you lose a top guy. All of a sudden, one of those contending teams.

that we think could win. All of a sudden it has a rough year. And it happens. It may not be the end of their road, but it might be a stumbling block, and those are the opportunities for those other teams to step in. It's funny how you mentioned that the cap probably hurt the lightning

more than anybody else. I'm sure a lot of our listeners are probably thinking, well, you know what? They've been circumventing that damn thing for so long now, you know, with their little kutra 12 teams. There were 12 teams over an LTIR last year, man. Look at the Vegas Gold and Nice and Jesse's team. They had like $100 million over the cap this year.

So, like, I don't know. That's a tired. narrative in my opinion. I mean, the cap's the cap, but I think overall, the team that they, there's like seven, eight guys from the 2020 Cup team on the roster now. And that's just three years ago. Coleman Gord, Goudreau, you've seen it all, Alex Clorne just left, you know, all these different things. But yeah, no one's going to feel sorry for a team that won two Stanley Cup. So, I get that. I think it's a tire narrative because they didn't do anything technically wrong. Until you break a rule, you take advantage where you can do it.

So a couple more things I want to get to before we get to our guest, who I should have mentioned off the top, Eric Stevens is going to come on, our colleague from the Athletic to talk ducks and to talk kings. Connor Bedard, obviously we've talked a lot about him over the last, I was going to say a few months, really a few years we've been talking about Connor Bedard. He's going to be a generational player.

And you look at when you draft someone like that, someone like a Crosby or someone like, you know, generational talents, Connor McDavid, of course. Kyle Davidson goes out and gets Corey Perry and Nick Felino and Taylor Hall. And Corey Perry talked this week a little bit about what it's like and what his role is going to be there. And he said, quote, it's not so much for me on the ice. It's away from the rink. It's in the dressing room. Just being a good teammate, just trying to help badard with day-to-day stuff, trying to make sure he knows what to do, where to go, be on time, all of those kinds of things.

then the on-ice stuff, it will take over as the season goes, end quote. How big is it to have a veteran like that? Because you talk about a spotlight. There's going to be able to 50 spotlights on everything Connor Bedard does. Corey Perry's been there, done that. How huge is it to have somebody like him, for lack of a better turn, hold Connor Baudard's hand through his rookie season? No, absolutely.

I think Corey is right, too. A lot of it's off the ice. It's handling the media. It's handling the autograph seekers, the pressure, reading or not reading anything that's in the press, right? I think, and Corey did that in Montreal when he was there, I think, with Suzuki and Caulfield and those guys. And he did that in Tampa with the Ross Coltons and younger players there. And I think Fulino will be the same way. And they could also be somewhat as they have a shield, but like, they can be go-to guys in the locker room after losses or after wins.

And they could be guys the media goes to and offers perspective and things. Corey Perry was a top five overall pick in the draft. He wasn't the Conor Bardard generational talent that this guy has been hyped to be for his whole entire life. But he does have perspective there. He's one major trophy. He's one of Stanley Cup. So I think having those guys, not just a full rebuild of young kids coming into Connor Bedard, supposed to be the leader, the United One.

He'll probably be the captain at some point in Chicago. But I think having Corey Perry and Folino and Taylor Hall will be helpful, not just to have competitive players and competitive teams. No one wants to get their butt kicked every night, but also just off the ice in terms of being a pro. He's just 18 years old, right? I mean, how long as he not lived away from his house? You know, live by himself. So I think, you know, it's all these life things that we forget about that go beyond the pressures of being given a franchise on your back right now. And while I completely agree with you, the all nice stuff, too, you know, if Connor Bredard goes the first three games of his NHL career without a point, it's going to be, you know, the pressure just gets that much bigger.

is the Cory Perry's of the world that can help him keep an even keel to say, this is an 82 game season, we've got a lot to go and you've got a long career ahead of you. So I think that's huge. One more thing before we go to break. I know it's an NHL show, a hockey show. But news came out. The NBA is going to be holding that in-season tournament. Starts in November, goes to December.

Never thought I'd see it. Very soccer-like. We see this all the time. Do you think this kind of opens a door to a possible mid-season? season tournament, not necessarily with NHL teams, but we're always looking for that best-on-best international tournament. Could we see like a World Cup being held mid-season? I mean, it would be tough with the way it's currently collectively bargained. And like, first of all, like, the All-Star break isn't very long, right? So how long was this tournament going to be?

I think guys are enjoying the bi-week situations, right? Like, people, guys are enjoying and take advantage of that. And so are you built in another break for the guys. that do these best-on-best tournaments, you know, I think there's a lot of logistics to go through it. I still think that NHL should have a best-on-best. I think it needs to market itself, more market its top stars. And I think it would be such a shame that we don't never see a McDavid, Austin Matthews, you know, Crosby and these guys in a best-on-best, legit, not just a Team North America and the World Cup of hockey like seven years ago, like at a legitimate Canada versus U.S.

or Sweden, all these top players, you know, Bidar to be in there. Like, I think it's just such a shame if these guys don't get that opportunity. Even the Stamcoast has never played in the Olympics. Victor Hedman hasn't played in the Olympics. You know, like these things, it's just a bummer to me that this is happening. So I think there should be a way. I don't know if this is the same model as the NBA is doing. I know what's going to be a lot to do, but there has to be a way for this to be figured it out

before these guys age out of the system again. I know when it comes to the Olympics, Gary Bettman has constantly said, you know, We don't want to shut down our league and give away our product for nothing. Well, if the league held this, they would get the profit. So I think he might be a little bit more open to doing it. I could see it happening. But then again, you start bringing up things like injuries. And if somebody's hurt and do they go or don't they go?

Or if they get hurt during the tournament, there are a lot of factors. But it was just one of those things. I saw the NBA. I'm like, you know, we constantly argue whether, you know, things like the World Cup of hockey should be in like September or another time. Well, now this maybe opens up their eyes or they'll see what the NBA does over the next couple of years. We're going to go to a break. After the break, we'll talk ducks.

We'll talk kings with the one and only Eric Stevens. So don't go anywhere. All right. Well, our next guest, always a busy man covering both the ducks and the kings for the athletic, Eric Stevens. Joining us on the athletic hockey show. How are you, sir? I'm well, Rob. How's it going today?

Good. We were saying off the air as we were getting you on how much of a laid back kind of attitude. you got when you're on these Zoom calls. I love it for a guy who, like I said, it's got to be difficult. I read all your stuff covering two teams. Usually when you got someone who covers a team their whole life is this franchise,

how do you do it with two teams? I don't know. You probably have a better idea, Rob, than I do. I guess you just kind of throw yourself into what. I mean, that's kind of the type of guy that I am. is uh once once there's the assignment i just throw myself into it completely so let's let's just say i'm glad that i have a a recent model year car that's holding up knock on wood pretty well and uh you know all those all those trips up and down the 405 and the five i'm able to make those

make those pretty well but you know that's that's how i roll that's my biggest question is like all the traffic like how do you get it through the traffic it must have like some podcast or music the play through because like I can imagine driving through traffic all the time to both and I've got a pretty healthy playlist on my iPod and yes an iPod I know it's now like what 20 years old

now or whatever but I still use it I got a pretty healthy playlist that gets me through it and thankfully being a native you kind of learn the times when you can go and not deal with as much traffic but I still have my days

when I'm like all the way that's when you turn that's when you turn our podcast on and just get angry at us instead let's delve right into it you know where i'm going to start we're starting with the kings we're starting with the dubois sign and trade i love the way you put it in your piece and i'm going to quote you i don't do this often when we have guests on but i'm going to quote you a signature trade and blake six years on the job a gamble on a 25 year old with an unquestioned talent and a spotty reputation that could take the kings to new heights they haven't been in nearly a decade That, sir, is just good writing.

But your thoughts when you saw the Dubois deal? We haven't seen many eight-year deals signed this year. It seems like a new kind of way before that cap goes up or down, and we don't know what it's going to do. But break down what you thought of the Dubois deal. You know what, Rob, I'm going to give my honest impression, my honest first impression. I like the fact that the Kings made a big move,

you know, that Rob Blake felt at this point in time, you know, he needed to. to maybe shake things up. You know, they're coming off of their second straight playoff appearance, you know, coming out of a rebuild that they needed to execute, you know, after the cup years. Obviously, that was a different difficult period. Well, you know, now they're on the come up. And I think, you know, after losing to Edmonton again in six games and maybe realizing

that, okay, we've got to not only try to get beyond them, but now defending Stanley Cup champion, in Vegas in the same division that they needed to make a move to level up, you know, so to speak. So Pierre-Luc Dubois is obviously going to have a lot to prove, you know, here. And when I talk about the reputation, I mean, we know it, you know, fairly or unfairly. He's asked off about, you know, two teams, you know, in his career. He's on his third team, you know, and he's just 25. And there's the feeling that, you know, when he's on, he's a terror on the ice. He's terrific.

If anyone watched a few years ago in that playoff bubble with Columbus and how he was huge in that victory over Toronto, you know, you saw then, you just thought this is going to be a potential star here. And he's never quite gotten to that, you know, sort of, you know, high-eat. you know, that top first line center, you know, type of player that, you know, franchises build their teams around. You know, he's probably settled into, he's settled into maybe not that type of player, but he can be one that can still make a difference. And so I was a little hesitant, you know, in terms of him being the guy to sort of bet on here that Rob is bedding on. But I do get the move in terms of, you know, creating. say a potential matchup nightmare in the middle with Ange Copaupatar and Philip Dono and Pierre

Lupe de Waugh centering your top three lines here. The kings are built on depth. This is sort of leveling up that depth here. But, but, you know, he's got a big contract. He's, he's now committed here. He's going to be here for a while. And he's got to maybe kind of prove the, prove the doubters wrong here. Eric, as a guy who covers a team who's been looking for number one's center for a couple of decades. I certainly get the move here in importance of finding a center of that position. I was curious more of the off-ice or the person in period of Dubois. He is an interesting character, like the elite talent asked off two teams pretty much. And I read your story, too, about his history in L.A. or history with the Kings or the camp

there. I was wondering, what makes you guys, you think and the Kings think that he's a guy that A. wants in, into the long haul. Like, this guy's not going to be disgruntled in three years and say I want to trade that he's a guy that's like, I'm, we're betting a lot on him. He's bet on himself, of course, but like what makes him this move here, the right fit for him? Well, you know what? I think when you talk about Pierre-Luc Dubois, and look, I don't know him personally.

I'm, you know, certainly going to, you know, hope to get to know him over time whatsoever, but I've talked to, you know, others about him. And even in that first, you know, first couple of impressions whatsoever, you can see that, you know, he's kind of a worldly guy, you know, and I think the feeling's always been there that he's kind of wanted to be in a bigger market. And it's not, and I say this with no disrespect. I mean, I trust me, I love my trips to Columbus and Winnipeg, whatsoever. But I think that he just enjoys being in, I guess, maybe a cosmopolitan area. And then that's what LA is.

You know, he talked about it at length during his interview the other day of wanting new, you know, experiences, of wanting to dig into the food scene, the vast food scene here, of, you know, different environments, you know, different, you know, when you look at L.A., I mean, it's such a tapestry of different, you know, areas, neighborhoods, you know, you can drive 10, 20, 30 miles and have sort of a completely. different vibe within, you know, within the same metropolis. And I think that's something that he really likes and looks forward to. You know, his history, I mean, he, you know, they have the CAA, you know, hockey camps that are out here. And ironically, it was going on outside at in El Sigando at the King's facility as he was speaking. So he was, he was here when he was like 16, 17 years old. And really, you know, maybe he didn't get to know. the place extensively, but I think that was kind of the first seed there in terms of this being, you know, maybe a home that he might consider in the future. You know, Joe, it's, here's, here's

the key with him. He's now in a place where he wants to be. He was drafted to Columbus. He was traded to Winnipeg. He's made it clear that he's going to exercise, you know, the first opportunity that he can't exercise his, you know, his willingness to be in a spot where he wants to be. Well, now he has that. And so the Kings have got to be betting that his comfort level over these next years is going to heighten, and that's going to also translate on the ice. You mentioned all the things, the food scene, you know, the entertainment, everything else. The one thing you didn't mention there was just the hockey spotlight that would come with, say,

a Montreal, the other team that was rumored that he might be going to. And I wonder if that will translate to success on the ice because some people thrive on going to their home province where, you know, there's 50 media members at every single practice. And if you have a bad practice, it's front page news. Whereas others say, no, I want to go to an L.A. where I can get lost there. I can eat dinner without being hounded by fans. And I'm wondering if DuPois is one of those guys. You know what? I think there may be something to that. you know, Rob, as well, you know, yes, you are in a big city, a huge city, but when it comes to, say, hockey atmospheres, yeah, it's very different. And it, you know, doesn't say

compare with, you know, Montreal or, or some of the other, you know, Toronto or Ottawa, New York, you know, et cetera, you know, places where it's so hockey intense, so hockey focused. You've got the Dodgers out here. You've got the Lakers out here. You know, you're got even the big, you know, the big, you know, well-named college teams that draw a lot of attention, you know, out here as well. So yeah, you know, there is sort of that ability to, you know, quote unquote, get lost, so to speak, to where you are in a big, bigger market, but you don't have, say, everyone, every sports fan out here dissecting, you know, what you did each game and how well you played or how poorly you played.

There's obviously a very devoted contingent of hockey fans, of Kings fans that are out here that will do that. But it's not where you just have sort of an entire city that's sort of dissecting your every move. Eric, it was good to see you at the draft. It was a relatively boring one for a lot of us because there were not many trades. And you might have had the most interesting story on day one. We all knew who got in her garbage going number one, right? But number two was probably the biggest, maybe surprise. in some people's eyes, I guess, on who the ducks went with instead of Fantilli with Carlson there.

Just when did you get a sniff that that might be the case? And why are kind of the ducks kind of bullish on this pick? You know, I don't think you could go wrong either way. I don't think there's a bad pick of the two. But it's just more of a style choice or more of, you know, what Pepper Beak wants to do. But what was, when did you figure that out that doesn't happen? And why are they so kind of bullish on Carlson or Pan Tilly? Yeah, you know what?

And it's funny. I mean, I have to say that I might have had a little bit of egg on my fells because I wrote that they should have taken Fantilli. And you know what? They were even careful to say even afterward that it's not a saying that Fantilli is going to be a bad player or whatsoever. They think they think Antilles is going to be a great player. But, you know, it's what like you mentioned, Joe, they're sort of stylistically different. Adam's more of a driver of the play himself. You know, he's got the great wheels.

He's got a great shot. He's going to score a bunch of holes in this league. You know, so those are some of his strengths. Leo Carlson, what Anaheim was really increasingly impressed with, and I think what cinched in their minds with his performance at the world championships, was the way that he makes his teammates better, that he's such a great playmaker and, you know, the IQ. I mean, I know it can be a nebulous term, hockey IT or whatsoever,

but that's what they said repeatedly in terms of maybe that slight difference in why they went with him, that, you know, they think that he's someone that can be a force, not just in the offensive end, but really in the defense event of the eyes as well. I mean, the word Selke was being tossed around their outside. the draft in terms of Leo Carlson possibly being one of those players. And if you see a lot of the comparisons, it's ironic we just talked about the Kings whatsoever, Ange Coppatar's name has come up a lot in terms of a potential comparison, a potential, you know, stylistic type of player that Leo can become. And I mean, Ange Coppitar, he's he's one of the ideal two-way centers of this

generation. They really think that he's going to really play well with this core that they're, you know, that they got developing in Anaheim that's going to be featured around Mason McTavish and Trevor Ziegress and even Troy Terry whatsoever. You talked about, you know, getting a sniff of it or whatsoever. You know, they said that they kind of came to the conclusion about two weeks before the draft. You know, I kind of felt like there was momentum, more momentum, you know, coming along and maybe say the first, you know, the two or three days before the draft. I really started to feel like, you know, that there was a real possibility that they were going to go with Carlson over Fantilli.

And I think the day of the, the morning of the draft, whatsoever, it was, I would, I'm to say maybe a couple hours before whatsoever. I really thought to myself, they're really going to pick them. That, that's, you know, that's who they're going to choose. And like I said, Pat, Pat loves his, he loves his hockey brain out there. His, you know, his sense is his ability to be able to kind of see everything on the ice and make the right play at the right time. I've always said I would pay a lot of money to be a fly on the wall for the meetings

with GMs and potential picks because we can analyze you just did for the last five minutes the play on the ice. One guy drives the play. One guy makes everyone around him better. But have you heard anything about something off the ice that would have led them to think that Carlson was a better pick other than what you just said, the hockey IQ? I mean, to me, it just seems like, and I again sound a little bit like a broken record. We interviewed Fantilli on this show. We got to talk to him a little bit before and after the show.

And I remember saying to Jesse and Rousseau, this kid feels like a 10-year veteran already. So, you know, I was a little surprised that he was passed up at two. And I was wondering if it was something that maybe you've heard off the ice that also influenced them. You know what? Well, it's interesting. And obviously it's going to play out over the next several years. You know, it's going to be funny. You know, usually in some of these drafts, it's going to be the debate on how, you know, number one and number two, you know, do over over the years whatsoever.

Where it feels like number two and number three is going to be the debate, debate over the next few years. I think what what's incredibly impressive about Leo is he's very engaging. And, you know, if anyone, you know, for those that don't know, and Scott Wheeler, you know, did a wonderful feature, deep dive feature on him. You know, he does have a stutter that he, that he's grown with and he's dealt with for all his life. And it's something that he does not, he doesn't run a, he doesn't run. away from. I mean, he embraces it. It's part of who he is. And if you talk to him, you know, face to face, he's very engaging. He looks, you know, a questioner right in the eye and he powers

through it. You know, it's something that, you know, that doesn't bother. He embraces it. It's part of him. And it, and it's something that he daily, you know, wants to improve that because, you know, I think he's, you know, someone that really wants to be, you know, be a franchise face, so to speak. And that's part of him. And he's already an inspiration, you know, to those, you know, who have, you know, that similar, you know, part, you know, about them. He's already an inspiration to them. And so can you imagine, you know, if he becomes a star player in this league, just what kind of impact that he, can make in that regard, just off the ice. You can see why the Ducks found him to be a very

impressive young man in addition to the skills that he shows on the ice. Eric, I'll have to say if I was to spin a wheel before free agency of where guys would land, I didn't think that Alex Colon and Radco Gutus would be landing in Anaheim, and that just me. And I'm, I love Anaheim. I love Southern California. I don't love the taxes. But, They have the money. They have Pat for Beak, right? So he knows both of those guys. But, you know, why did it make sense, I guess, for them to spend big on these guys?

Considering where Anaheim feels that they are in the competitive cycle. Like, we all know that John Gibson stuff you'll talk about later may not be there at some point. If you're going to, where are they in their competitive cycle and why these guys make sense, you know, to get their guys here? You know, Joe, you know them well, you know, especially Alex. And I think what Pat wants is he wants some guys to show those young guys, that young core that he's calling together, who some real competitors are. And I'm not, you know, we're not saying we're not, you know, I'm not taking away from any, you know, players that have played there previously or whatsoever.

But he wants guys that have been in the trench. have played in the most important games, you know, throughout their careers. I mean, Alex Kaloran's been in 140 playoff games. Rackal Kudas, you know, the last couple of years has been on a president's trophy, you know, team, and then obviously with the Panthers run to the final. You know, he wants guys that are going to show, you know, show Trevor Zegris, Mason McTavis, Jamie Drysdale. You know, some of the young talent, even that's going to be.

coming up, you know, soon through the system here. And they've got a pretty deep prospect system. Just what it is, you know, to really compete on a night-to-night basis, every single night. And that's who they are. That's their makeup. That's why they have had long careers in this league. But they, you know, Joe, they still think that they're viable players. I mean, Rackogood is, you know, he's going to bring some much need. bite to that team. I mean, they, they need some sandpaper in the worst way. It, you know, it was a group that was pushed around quite a bit at both ends of the ice. You know, Rackogoodis, he ain't going to be pushed around. He's, he's going to be the one that's going to be, you know, doing, you know, laying, you know, the lumber, so to speak. You know, and Alex, you know,

Alex, you know, which Pat obviously goes back a long time with, he's almost like the ultimate connector, you know, on whatever line that he plays because he's the one that does the dirty work. But, you know, he still has enough scum. He still had, you know, he had career high numbers, you know, last year. And yes, there, you know, there's always the worry that someone at his age, you know, that plays as hardy as he does, you know, how is it going to, you know, what's the drop off going to be like? Is it going to be sudden? Is it going to be gradual, you know, or what's the We'll see over these four years here. But it's not just what they do on the ice, but really a lot of the stuff, a lot of the intangibles that, you know, I know those aren't measured as easily as the stats and the numbers are whatsoever.

But Pat feels like, you know, pretty clear that with that core that he's putting together that hopefully will be the leaders when this team is time, you know, is ready to contend. whatsoever, that they will have been well versed in seeing players on a day-to-day basis that give it their all every single day. Oh, you're absolutely going to love both those guys and the fans are going to love them. Like Alex Horn, one of the favorite overall people I've covered. And he's a very good culture guy, too, of bringing those guys along the true pro. It's more interesting. I think the ducks made sense for them to get them as more so, like, for the players perspective,

of like, I don't think these guys are going to win a cup in the next couple years in Anaheim, right? You're going a guy like they just went to the cup final. I think you guys, they want to win still. So I guess it must be just that they feel like this core is getting close enough to where they can be the catalyst, I guess, to that. Because there's other options out there. It's a slow bill. Yeah. No, it's a slow bill.

You know, Pat's being very patient about it. He's been very clear, you know, from the get-go. I mean, they had the huge sell-off, obviously, at the 2020 deadline with Lynn Holm and Raquel, Josh Manson. You know, that that was a clear sign that, look, we're going to do a real rebuild here. You know, it's not going to be, you know, a half measure or a retool on the fly, so to speak. This is a real one. And so, you know, it's, if you're going to be counting on, you know, say, Mason McTavish or Troy Terry being, say, that maybe the future captain one day, you know, leading that group with Zegras and Driesdale and Carlson, you know, and maybe youngsters like Olin Zellweger or Pauvel, Pauvel,

on the back end eventually. You know, you need some leaders. You need some guys that are going to really set that example, you know, going forward here as they build up, you know, and as they, you know, really build out from, you know, from the basement because you can't get any lower than what the, what they were last year. So Allison and Recco, they're going to get, they're going to get paid well as well. You alluded to the taxes. I'm used to the taxes.

But they're going to get paid very well to offset some of that. Given everything you just said, Eric, you're going to be making a lot of trips up that highway up and down, up and down, getting there to cover both of these teams and all these storylines coming in the next season. So thanks for taking the time to lay back and sit and chat with us. We appreciate it. California, cool, right? Thanks so much, Eric. California, cool.

Thank God. Eric Stevens, who covers the Ducks and the Kings for the athletic. Rapid Fire coming up after the break. So don't go anywhere. All right, my favorite time of the show in yours, Rapid Fire. Joe, this is the part where we usually make fun of Russo because we call it Rapid Fire, but he'll ramble on for about 20 minutes for each topic. But you and I know what Rapid Fire was. We've got three of them.

Rapid Fire topic, number one, remaining UFAs. We've touched on a couple of them throughout the show, but there are a lot of big names out there. You got Teresanko. You got Taves. You got Dumba. You got, you know, Mark Jones. The list is long. which guy are you most interested to see where he ends up?

I think for me it's Matt Dumba, just having covered him here and been around here for a decade. I think there's a 28-year-old right-shot defenseman hard to find, so I think there'll be a home for him. It's just interesting. It's taking this long for it to happen, perhaps you're waiting for the Carlson Domino's the fall before an opening for Matt Dumba because we have a farewell column written for the Minnesota wild Matt Dumbah. I was waiting to run it because we don't know when he's going to get a leave.

here's a way to just click that post button you know what i mean it's always always fun when you got something in that in the chamber like that patrick kane to me is one that i'm kind of interested to see well i mean both the chicago guys i mean if taves comes back he's that guy he's we talked about it on last week's show jesse brought it up you know what i mean if jonathan taves joins a team in the role that we've talked about twice on this show as far as a leadership role a guy who's not looked upon to be the man to maybe help a young player out if jonathan taves speaks, you're going to listen. He's been there, done that, three cops. I'd

like to, I'm really interested to see where Taves ends up. Signing to pass your way four-year extension for Alex Newhook with the Havs 11.6 million bucks, kind of a versatile forward place, both the wing and center. Your thoughts on this one. Interesting move. I think this could

be a better situation of fit in Montreal for the role that they want him to play. He got picked there when the avalanche run their way up as far as to cop contenders, and maybe he wasn't the right role or the right usage potentially. And so I think this is a good bet by Montreal to have a guy like that skill set, maybe in a different role, a little more immediate role,

and allowed him to develop a little bit more. They're in a more of a development program versus Colorado is more in a win now program. So maybe less patience there for it. And finally, rapid fire topic number three, couple of retirements to pass your way, Patrick Hornfist, hanging him up as is Michael Stone. Stone's going to stay with the flames as a player development role. I always find Horfuss interesting, one of those crazy little stats or storylines.

I don't know if you want to call it a stat, but drafted dead last in the year when Cindy Crosby was, you know, number one overall. And then it ends up scoring the game winning goal in game six of the 2017 finals. Not surprising, but, you know, one of those things where you say, you tip your hat and say, good career, sir. Well, absolutely. Instrumental, you talk to any of Pittsburgh penguin players and they're all rave about Hornquist and his impact on those teams. I remember talking to him day one of camp this year in the Panthers after they came in. And he was like, we had to embrace the hard moments. You got to be able to kind of survive that adversity.

And I think he was kind of a player coach, as Reiko Russo wrote later in the playoffs. He wasn't playing, but he was such an active member behind the scenes for those guys who hadn't been through a long playoff run, a multiple overtime kind of game before. So kudos to him to go from not Mr. Relevant because one of the late later round picks, but to turn into one heck of a career there. Congratulations to both of those guys. Joe, thanks for jumping in. You working on anything we should keep our eye on? Well, I had that Matt Dumba piece I've been working on for a little bit. So we'll see where he lands.

Yeah, I didn't work on something on exceptional status. Guys like Hunter McHardard and them who have been through it in the program and what's going on with it. So just some off-season fun stuff. 14, right? He was labeled exceptional status at 14. Incredible. That's just crazy.

Not even high school yet. I cannot wait to see. Yeah. I mean, you always hear about 15-year-olds with the exceptional status, but 14 is just, that's just incredible. Cannot wait to watch that guy play in the NHL. Big thanks, Joe, for jumping on. I want to let everybody else there know if you want to see our ugly mugs while we're doing all this talking about hockey. Subscribe to the NHL's YouTube channel at YouTube.com slash the athletic hockey show.

And, of course, the show continues Thursday with Ian Mendez and down goes Brown. I want to thank Eric Stevens for coming on. I want to thank Joe once again for co-hosting next week. Shannon Goldman, going to be the co-host filling in for those two lazy co-hosts of mine who are gallivanting around the world. For Joe Smith, I am Pizzo. Thanks for listening. We'll talk to you next week. If you stop anything in this league, there's something else open. Always. So how do you tie that shit together? How do you get the quarterback to it? The voice you're hearing belongs to San Francisco 49ers head coach Kyle Shanahan.

And he's rolling. I'm product of my environment. I had to change that shit pretty fast. He's in a chair behind his desk. And it's not doing a great job of containing him because as he starts to talk about football and designing a scheme and calling plays and how, in his very strong opinion,

all of that is supposed to blend with the players. He's practically rattling. Not everyone can do everything, but they better be able to do something. Whether it's receivers, the quarterbacks, and you keep hammering that stuff and you make people defend it when they defend it, where's the other hole in the defense and who has the best trait to attack that hole?

And how do you balance them out? Do you have a guy who can find that stuff? If you can't, how do you get him to go through stuff that he'll get to it? Well, then you only put in two plays because it's number one's going to be wide open when it's the right coverage. But when it's the wrong coverage, it'll be so covered that number two will be open. And that's when he's going to go to number two. But don't just tell him to go to number two. Don't make him read the coverage.

Make him go through a process of how to get them to there. Or you got a guy who can just see everything. Kyle, I always go to number three verse cover three. I always go to number one versus cover two. This is a throw here. It's like, all right, well, let's start talking to you differently. But hey, yeah, that doesn't help that guy either, though. Could you just went to number three?

Well, yeah, you said it's good versus quarter. Not everyone plays quarters right. That mic fucking went with your eyes. Now number one was so, oh, oh, there's a situation for everything. Each mic's different. Each play's different. That's why when people say, like, I learned someone's offense, are you coaching that somewhere?

One entire wall of Shanahan's massive office is a dry erase board. It's covered in plays and handwritten notes to himself, and a couple of swipes as if he's gotten pissed and dragged his hand across certain ideas and frustration. Are you just, that's like, what are you, the water boy guy who left the shell of books somewhere, and now we have all your secret plays? Like, do you know what I'm talking about? Like, that's not how it works. Every play on Shanahan's dry erase board starts as one color.

Then he draws over the top of it with a different color, which represents a different variant to the same play. Then another, then another, color after color. Each of the layers interconnect and create a vivid mess that somehow makes so much sense, it's almost three-dimensional. Welcome to the inside of Kyle Shanahan's brain. I mean, I hate to say that it's my life because I know when I die, the first thing I'll think about are my loved ones. That's obviously not my life, but shit after that, that's all I can think about. This is the play callers. My biggest fear, if you talk to me as a 14-year-old, would be the life of an 80s rock star,

which is to achieve success and then be on that downward trend. We were so young and went through some really great moments, but went through some challenging moments, but, like, we just wanted to get better at football because we wanted to help our players. Bears get better. I'll tell you what, there's nothing more lonely than when you're not having success and you are the play caller because it's easy when things are going good, everybody has an idea, when you're not having success on offense and you're calling plays, you're like, hey, can somebody help me? It's like crickets on the headset. That's just the way it's a lonely feeling. It's a lonely world. That's Miami Dolphins head coach Mike McDaniel, Los Angeles

Rams head coach Sean McVeigh, and Green Bay, Hacker's head coach Matt LaFleur. They and Kyle Shanahan are the faces of the NFL's youngest coaching family. They all spent their early years together, collaborating to build an offense that borrowed from the old and introduced the new. Each one of these guys sees the game like an AI screen. All of these coaches have the same principle, but they all have their own stamp on it as well. They all became head coaches at unprecedented young ages and began to to shape their own identities in the most high-pressure environments in sports. Sean McVeigh got hired in Los Angeles.

People were like, really? Because he was so young, the tree wasn't established as kind of the NFL's go-to hiring bank at the time. Versions of their offensive system have now spread across a third of the NFL as their respective coaching staffs are pilfered annually. Having a piece of them is synonymous with scoring points. There's a lot of other owners who are just like, okay, like, I want to get the next Superman play caller. You know, I want to get someone to touch Sean McVeigh.

I want to get someone who touched Kyle Shanahan because they've won. That's another thing. They've won ball games. I mean, that's an important thing. We can't leave that part out. They have 19 playoff appearances between them, a couple of division and conference championships, and even a Super Bowl win. Sean McVeigh gets the Gatorade bat there for five seasons. The Rams were built to win the Super Bowl.

Super Bowl, and they have sealed the deal. Yet these four individual coaches are faded to forever be connected to each other, even as they are always ruthlessly competing and attempting to establish their own individuality. They're competing to be first movers in an ever-changing league, and even competing against their own minds, an obsessive pursuit of perfect answers within an imperfect game. There's not a fucking minute of any day during the calendar year that that immense responsibility I ever wish to be somebody else's.

It's an all-encompassing thing that I feel pretty fucking fortunate to be a part of. It's pretty fucking amazing. You have a microphone. Giving a shit about what I'm saying. I'm Jordan Rodriguez. I obsess over football for the athletic. A few years ago, I saw something at a Sean McVeigh run practice that helped me understand how the game collides with itself and how the people, especially these people, within it collide with each other.

Football is action and reaction, biology and sociology and evolution, a game, yet with the highest stakes and demanding of a deeply human toll. We're watching these guys and the teams they coach live it all right in front of us with an openness that is kind of startling, if you know where to look.