The Athletic Hockey Show - The St. Louis Blues-Matthew Tkachuk trade that never was, Johnathan Toews’ uncertain future with the Chicago Blackhawks, no-tax states creating NHL salary cap disparity, and much more

Episode Date: July 27, 2022

First, Rob, Jesse, and Sara discuss the Calgary Flames trading Matthew Tkachuk to the Florida Panthers for Johnathan Huberdeau, MacKenzie Weegar, a prospect, and a pick, whether the NHL needs to address the growing salary cap disparity caused by low-to-no income tax states, Johnathan Toews’ thoughts on his future with the Chicago Blackhawks in an exclusive interview with The Athletic’s Mark Lazerus, the San Jose Sharks hiring David Quinn as their next head coach, and a Dustin Brown statue to be built outside Crypto.com Arena to go along with his Los Angeles Kings jersey retirement.Then, The Athletic’s own Jeremy Rutherford joins the show to talk about the Matthew Tkachuk-to-St. Louis Blues trade that never was, how Florida’s tax situation might’ve impacted his eventual trade to the Panthers, whether Flames GM Brad Treliving or Matthew Tkachuk himself ultimately made the trade happen, how the Blues offseason has gone so far, and more.Plus, the group wraps things up with some rapid fire questions about who the most intriguing free agent still available is, Jesse Puljujarvi staying in Edmonton with the Oilers on a 1-year deal, Nino Niederreiter taking a 2-year deal with the Nashville Predators, and well-wishes for Bobby Ryan.And, right now, you can get a 6 month subscription to The Athletic for just $1 a month when you visit http://theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

What's going on, everybody? Welcome to another edition of the Athletic Hockey Show, the Wednesday Roundtable Edition. I am Rob Pizzo from CBC Sports. I'm in Toronto. Sarah Sivian in Boston, trying to keep her accent gone, right? I know you and your brother, you're sending messages of your brother talking with the Boston accent. Made me laugh because it's a fun accent.

How are you, Sarah? Yeah, I'm great. I'm great. How are you? I'm doing good. And in a... week or two where breaking news has been the story in the NHL, like things just shocking everybody. The news just keeps coming left, right and center.

Leave it to Jesse Granger to break the biggest news of them all. I don't know if it's an acquisition or assigning a lifetime contract that he has signed with his now fiancé Tracy. Congratulations, my friend, on taking the leap. Thank you, Rob. Thank you. Very exciting week. Thank you, Sarah. Woke up and I saw the picture of you guys in front of the Bellagio fountain, and I take it. Everything went well on the proposal.

It did. It did. She's born and raised in Vegas. Not very many people in Las Vegas are born and raised here. So I thought couldn't be a more Vegas spot in the world than in front of the Bellagio fountain. Yes, it worked out very well. Are we going to live podcast that wedding? Like, are we just going to have, we got to go live? to it. The athletic hockey show, wedding edition. The wedding edition. Get used to one question for the next couple weeks. Have you set a date yet? Have you set a date yet? Have you set a date yet? Trust me, people ask that like crazy. But congratulations. We want to make sure we got that in the show because we got a lot to get through, guys. We've had some time to digest what could only be

considered a blockbuster deal. We don't necessarily see blockbuster deals very often like this with so many layers. Matthew Kachuk, now a member of the Florida Panthers, and he will be for a while signing an eight-year deal worth $76 million in a deal that saw Jonathan Huberdow, McKenzie Weeger, a pick and a prospect going the other way. Like I said, it's been a few days now, guys, when you saw it, when you're on your social media account or wherever the hell you saw it the first time, what words came out of your mouth? Because for me, I was like, are you fucking kidding me. Sarah, we'll start with you. Mine was, what's the point then?

Like, I get that the two going to Calgary are both UFA's next year, but still, if you're getting such a great player like Kachuk, don't you want to keep Uberdo and go for a run? Like, I just don't understand. I guess the word that

I thought of is how. Because I don't know if I've just been conditioned covering the Golden Knights that if a team, if the rest of the league knows you have to make a trade, You get nothing. You get absolutely nothing. The Golden Knights gave Mark Andre Fleury away for literally nothing.

It was McKell Hecker-Rinan was the return. He didn't even fly to Vegas. They were like, don't even bother. Stay in Chicago. They gave Max Patcheretti away to Carolina. They actually had to give Carolina Dylan Coglin to sweeten it for them to take the team's best score. So I've just been conditioned that if the whole team knows, if the whole league knows you have to make a trade, you're getting absolutely nothing and liking it. and somehow Calgary got an absolute haul.

I do not know how they did it, but Calgary deserves all the credit of the world. It's incredible the return they got. Bradshaw Living deserves the GM of the year work right now. I love that his dad tweeted that. His dad was like he's a good son too and a great GM. To me, that's the key to this whole thing is, you know, he didn't demand a trade in the traditional sense

where somebody I want out of this city, but he said I'm not signing long. term. So trade me or I'm going to be a UFA in a year. And I saw this deal and you don't see Hart Trophy candidates, you know, going the other way. And this deal, like I said, has so many layers because if you look at the upcoming season, 2022, 2023 season, the Calgary Flames won the deal. It's not even close, right? I mean, look at what they got. They got a top-tier defenseman. They got Hubertoe. They won it hands down. But if those two guys bolted in free agency, this is a much different, like, come July of next year, this deal is going to be examined all over again, isn't it?

Yeah, it's going to look totally different. I think if they can, just Huberto, if they can just sign Huberto, and it's like, okay, we got, we kind of swapped stars. So one for one. Hubertos a little older, but to me, him and Kach, that's pretty even swap. And we got a year of McKenzie Weeger and first round draft pick. Like I think if you can just get Hubert O to sign, you still feel great about it. If you get them both to re-sign, Calgary won this deal and it's like a runaway. But like you said, if all of them walk, there's a different feel to this trade in a year.

Well, those last time we touched blockbuster of this magnitude with two elite teams too. You know what I mean? Usually when somebody wants out, they want out because a team's not, you know, going in the direction they want. And we'll get to Jonathan Taves in a minute. But when you've got two teams that had the seasons that they did, it's so weird to see them swap top tier players, isn't it? I just wonder if this would have happened if Goddrow signed in Calgary. You know what I mean? Because it's like they were elite, but it's now what are they?

I guess still elite with the two players they got in their return. So it's great work by the flames. But yeah, it's been a while since two playoff caliber teams are doing this. And just the cap implications, like I said, I mean, you know pre-cap it was pretty simple you just make a deal you don't care what is going on come contract time but i was looking at you know some of the biggest deals in the cap era what do you guys think is the biggest deal since you know they have to deal with money i mean i got pk suban for shei weber was a huge one taylor hall for adam larsson when eric carlson got traded to the sharks

uh the tyler sagan deal to dallas is or one that jumps out there you're like because this to me is is is right up there jesse yeah i mean obviously Like the Iko one is top of mind for me. That was obviously a huge trade. But every trade I think like Mark Stone, again, kind of the Vegas thing, they're all terrible teams trading their best player to a good team because the player doesn't want to be there anymore is for the most part. Like I think the Suban Weber trade, I guess, is a little different.

That was more of a, hey, we got a top elite defenseman. You got an elite defenseman. Let's see if they work better in other cities. Yeah, I think this is right up there with those. I would say the say again, just because I, was in Boston at the time. And I remember they had this behind the bee thing where they showed all of them, Peter Cheirelli in the war room where he's like making this horrible decision.

It's so funny to look back on like all the reasons they wanted to trade him and what they're, it like fell through at the last minute. And it's like they're so, I don't get why they haven't deleted that yet. But it's like everybody, if you're bored this summer, go watch that again. That is just so funny. Based on everything except hockey. Yeah. It was all about it what, you know, what he does.

off the ice and I agree with you. I remember seeing that going, this is still just floating around out there on YouTube. That's how it is. Should mention, you know, obviously, this is the second time in two weeks now. We thought Johnny Goodrow, we had, you know, going to New Jersey was a foregone conclusion.

I don't know about you guys. I thought Kachuk was just getting ready to be a St. Louis blue. And we're going to talk to Jeremy Rutherford in the second half of the show to see what happened there. Were you guys on the same boat? I thought for sure going home, he's from St. Louis, is the history with his dad. I thought Cichuk was a blue next year for sure. Yeah, I wanted to, I want to ask Jeremy about this.

But when I saw the list, the list that was in the story that was just all the cities he's, I was like, well, he's clearly going to St. Louis because this list to me looks like a city he actually wants to go to. And then he's like, well, I got to throw some, I can't just say St. Louis. I've got to throw some other cities. Throw the ones with no state income tax. So like, to me. To me, when I saw the list, it screamed, I want to go to St. Louis.

That was just my initial thought. And you touched on our next topic, Jesse, because, you know, we saw Johnny Goodrow, as I mentioned. We thought he was going to New Jersey. He ends up in Columbus. And everyone talks about the money he left on the table. And it brought up something that is just so interesting because different states and different promises have different tax brackets. and what you end up giving to the government. And I saw someone on Twitter and I apologize.

I just randomly saw people talking about this and I thought it was an interesting topic. Are we at a point now where the NHL has to at least consider a different cap for different states depending on what their tax situation is? I know in Europe, in certain soccer leagues, their cap situation always is based on after taxes. this player has this cap hit after taxes. Because to me, guys, I look at the Panthers, I look at the lightning, I look at the stars, I look at the Golden Knights. They have a distinct advantage over other teams. Do we need to start maybe thinking about something like that?

Sarah? Probably before Austin Matthews hits the market. It is like all these American-born players kind of realizing this, and you're seeing that this year. And I absolutely think something needs to be done. and it's more power to the players for kind of optimizing. They only have these bodies in their prime for a few years, and they want to make as much money as possible.

And I think that's more power to them. But I think the league needs to follow suit and make it more fair. I do think the cap needs to rise in general, like a huge amount. But I guess we'll get there, Jesse. Yeah, I feel like this is almost like a recent development. Like, it's not that players haven't known this for a while, but it just seems like it's really getting emphasized in the last few. years. You all like I've heard some people say, well, the agents, they know how to structure their,

their contracts and they, they work through bank accounts and blah, blah, blah. They get all this stuff. But at the same time, I'd list like the one Kachuk put out, which we're going to ask JR if it, if it actually is just state income tax. But like here in Vegas, Evgeny Dadanov didn't want to be traded to Anaheim. From what I hear, it was 100% tax based. And his, his no trade list was basically pick the 10 teams that cities that have the highest tax bracket, put them on my no trade. That's my no trade list. I don't care where I'm playing hockey. I don't care if they're a winner, if they're a loser. I want to make the most money possible. And I have no problem with that. I have all the respect in the world. Right. So to me, if players are going to be that

upfront about like I want to play for the teams with the lowest tax brackets, then maybe we do have to change something because we we should like I don't know like that kind of takes that's that's part of the competitive balance you're taking it off with these teams in these non non state tax brackets having a big advantage I don't know like I said I feel like this is just in the last couple years so it's starting to feel like they do need to make a change what do you think rob you're in a you're in a absolutely do place with high tax bracket no I mean I I find you know I find that it's one of those things, it's kind of funny because the salary cap was implicated why, obviously to keep, you know, to make it a fiscally responsible league, but also to make an even playing field. And suddenly,

we don't have an even playing field. I'm looking at some salary rates and tax rates right now. And the one that jumps out to me is John Tomarous. He pays 53.3% in taxes. Okay? That is $8.4 million a year goes to the government because of where he plays. You know what I mean? And I remember when Stephen Stamcoast was getting said to be a free agent, and everyone's like, why Tampa? Well, I'm sure there's a lot of other reasons, but he didn't come to Toronto because look at the tax implications. So I think it's, and I'm far from, you know, an account or somebody who's really an expert on taxes, but to me, the simple answer is after taxes.

This is what this player makes after taxes. That's what counts against the cap. And we go from there because, as you mentioned, if suddenly players are saying, My 10 team, no trade clause is the 10 teams of the highest tax bracket. You're handcuffing teams. You're handcuffing GMs. And I think Tampa Bay has, has, you look at all the great team friendly deals they have on their, on their cap. I think a big part of that is when they're talking to these players.

And I think Vegas does the same thing. I think they're telling them, look, we're going to give you a five million. You may be able to get six out on the open market, but do the math. And you're actually going to make more, making five here. Just sign this deal. And you look at these, like I said, I think Tampa's done it really well. They have a lot of team-friendly contracts, and that could be directly because of that. And I'm happy that players have started using it as leverage because it's in their rights to do so.

And I want the rules to follow suit. I have to wait and see. As you mentioned, Jesse, I agree with you. It's kind of a new phenomenon, but it's just because, you know, the numbers are obviously all we talk about now when it comes to a trade. Like a trade or a signing. I mean, there was, you don't just. talk about whether a trade was won or lost by a certain team. You got to start talking about what their capital implications are. And if a team flat out just can't go for a free agent because

of something that's beyond their control, that's now an unfair advantage. Right. Then you look at the bigger sports and it's like people are turning down $400 million and it's less of an issue. When you, if your tax rate was 53.3%. And every state is so different. Like I did some just some research looking into it and certain states, have a higher or lower tax bracket, whether or not you're married, whether or not you have kids, you know, so all of these implications have to, and maybe that's why certain unrestricted free agents are taking so long to sign. There's a lot of things they have to consider besides that, you know, cap-friendly number that we end up seeing in the end. Some more news guys, sharks

officially naming David Quinn, their new head coach, of course, replacing Bob Boogner, who was fired. You talk about this overhaul with the sharks. Man, oh man, it has been busy in San Jose. In April, they fired Doug. Well, they didn't fire Doug. Well, so, excuse me. He stepped down because of medical reasons. Boogner was fired in June. They hire Mike Greer as their GM in July.

And now this month, they traded away Brent Burns and now have a new head coach. They are turning things upside down in San Jose. Your thoughts on this, Jesse? Yeah, I mean, this isn't an attack on Quinn, but I'm just so tired of seeing the same 32 names recycled over and over and over again. I think we, I mean, we talk about it on here quite a bit. I had a few, like, off the wall guys that I thought Vegas should have interviewed to just, like, non-NHL guys, whether it was Broberg from Sweden or just someone new. And I feel like maybe Vegas wasn't in the situation to do that because they're like in win now mode and there's a lot of pressure and we don't have time to, to, we've got old aging players. To me, San Jose is in, like, they're in a full rebuild.

Like, this team is trying, like, basically starting from scratch. they've got some huge contracts that they're trying to manage, but they're still basically starting from the beginning. I thought this situation would have been a perfect one to give someone else a chance. But this is the NHL, so here we are. Agreed. I thought Mike Volucci, he was a candidate for this job, and he would have been great.

He was the former, he's with the Penguins now in the NHL. I think he's due for a look in the NHL in some capacity. I think David Quinn, I like him more than a lot of people do, I think, because he was at BU and he, I think he suited for the NHL. I don't think the Rangers were an ideal situation for him. I don't know if the sharks are either, but I guess we'll see. I don't know. There's the BU connection too with Mike Greer, right?

They're both from both at the Boston University. And that's, you know, you talk about relationships and we see those same. names, Jesse, because we see the same names wearing suits in the offices, too, and they're all just going to continue this recycling. I'm with you. I like when a coach is considered, and me, as someone who follows hockey and covers hockey for living, I'm like, who? Right. I like that. I like that. I have to look this guy up and go, okay, let me see what he's done, because it just sometimes feels like just this carousel of the same guys over and over again. It does. I will say we're getting better. There was a week during the draft or right before it where there's like so many women's names being thrown in

and uh jessica campbell who's an assistant coach in the hl now the first female assistant coach i got to talk to the draft a lot i think she has such a bright future and that's someone people should look into and they're getting there but they can't just go from never having worked in the nchl to nchel head coach so it's a process that we're finally spinning the wheels on oh we'll wait and see we'll see the same guys go out over it this feels like we're like shitting on Quinn. To me, it's not even Quinn. He just happened to be the latest retread that got hired. Like, I don't have a problem specifically with him. It's just, he just happened to be the one that got hired. Breaking news. Jesse Granger gets engaged and he hates

David Quinn. Not invited to the wedding. Right. Yeah, he's definitely. Or if he is, he's sitting at the back. He can't hear any of the speeches. Jonathan Tame's making a little news this week, uh, told Mark Lazarus some interesting things. Obviously, this black. The Blackhawks team is now in a rebuild. I'm going to read the quote directly just so we can be as accurate as possible. Quote, at the end of the day, we're talking about five-plus-year process, according to Kyle. So that part of it doesn't sound appealing to me at all. I can't speak for Patrick Kane, but I definitely feel that the amount of turnover our team has gone through every single year, the last three or four years.

That's where it gets really, really draining and exhausting. He went on to talk about some of the trades they made with De Brinkett and Kirby Doc. This is kind of clearly the end of an era in Chicago, is it not? Jesse? Yeah, I mean, for sure, the end. I personally care, like, just, I don't know, for the national narrative, I care a lot more about what Kane thinks. Because I think Taves is, they're not going to get much for him if they were to try to trade him, right? Like, to me, Taves is, is, can be part of the rebrand.

he can be just the guy like the captain that kind of helps bring everyone in and and whereas cane I think you can get a lot of value for it like to me when I look at it I'm like how has patrick kane not been traded this is insane like you're doing a rebuild he's clearly too old to be to I thought to brink it you could have kept around for the the other end the other side the light at the end of the tunnel cane is clearly in like he's got a couple more years of of high level hockey left I think they should trade him but he obviously he has to waive that no trade so I would be curious I think this kind of maybe gives us some insight into what Kane is feeling. If Taves is saying these things to Mark, then Kane is probably feeling similar.

But I think eventually he's going to have to break and wave that no trade. And then they can actually get this rebuild started with moving on from him. What do you think? When somebody says, I can't speak for Patrick Kane, they're speaking for Patrick Kane. Right. We've all done it. We've all had a conversation with someone else. And then you speak to a third person, you go, I'm not going to speak for that person.

you're like, you're absolutely speaking for that person. It feels like Strome was kind of the last, or one of the last dominoes for Kane in that situation too. I mean, they're shamelessly rebuilding. You can't really do that with Patrick Kane. Yeah, but I get it, though. For someone who you become used to winning, they won three cups in six years.

So if your GM is saying, we're going to suck for five years when you're 34 and at the end of your career, of course that doesn't sound appealing. That sounds terrible. That sounds like a horrible work. environment. And yeah, you have those captains who are fine with just helping with that process. I don't see Jonathan Taves is one of them. Last thing before we go to break, guys. Dustin Brown, I thought this story was interesting because,

you know, the Kings announced they're going to be retiring his number. I get it. Spent a lot of time there. They're also building him a statue outside the arena. The only other LA Kings do have a statue, Luke Robatai, and some guy who wore number 99 on his back. I don't mean this in a disparaging way about Dustin Brown, but are we building statues for Dustin Brown? If Dustin Brown's getting a statue, who in the NHL is getting a statue 100% when they retire? I just thought this was a little bit like, you know, to me a statue is quite the honor. I'm not sure Dustin Brown necessarily fits that.

What do you think? Yeah, Bobby Orr, it's got a statue in Boston. Rod Brindamor doesn't have a statue in PNC Arena. So I don't think we should do Dustin, but no offense, man. The first thing I thought of is like, they really like statues in L.A. Like, have you guys walked around Staples? And it is Staples. We're referring to it as Staples Center on this podcast.

All right. Staple's. Have you guys walked around it? No. Yes. There are statues everywhere, like tons of them. Like just everywhere you look. They have statues, they have a statue of a broadcaster.

I wish I could think of his name of a play by play guy. It's literally a statue of him sitting at a table with a mic in front of him. And you can like sit at the table next to him. They have so many statues outside of Staples Center. There's like you mentioned the Gredski and Robatai, but there's there's a cup statue, a Stanley Cup statue with like 15 players like around the cup. There's Magic Johnson. They've got so many statues.

So I don't know. Like I agree that Dustin Brown maybe kind of. That's a little over the line. Like, I don't know if he's a statue guy, but in L.A. where they've got statues literally everywhere, I think it'll fit in. He's going to be sitting next to the broadcaster in a statute. Right. I mean, again, I don't mean that great career.

You know, retire his number, but a statue. Man, oh, man, where are we going with these statues? And I guess if that's the thing L.A. does, that's the thing L.A. does. But I ain't built a Dustin Browder than a statue. After the break, maybe Jeremy Rutherford will get a statue. If he's a really good guest on the show, we'll break down the deal that never was to St. Louis, so don't go anywhere. So, guys, I know this is a podcast, but we're going to post a picture of this on the Twitter account. It's not very often that we have two Wayne Gretzky jerseys hanging in the background during our show.

But Jeremy Rutherford joining us now, senior writer for the athletic covering the blues. I've got my Oilers jersey in the background. you've got your blues jersey in the background. Both have the great one's signature on it. Yours a little sentimental value in that one, though, you were telling us off the air. Yeah, a little bit. I've born and raised in St. Louis, and way before I ever covered the blues fan, you'd grow up in St. Louis and, like, Cocky, your blues fan.

And so when Wayne Breske came to town, my mom bought me the sweater, I think I was 20, 21 years old or so. She passed away in 2003, so a lot of sentimental value for me, having that jersey that she bought. And then also just a quick story, the Blues Public Relations Department one time, asked Wayne if he would sign it. He was in town and he signed the front of it.

And the PR said, well, he's probably going to want to display it on the backside. So he signed it again. So he got two Wayne autographs on that. But I didn't know he played for the Oilers. That's wild. Yeah. I know we spent a lot of time in St. Louis.

Yeah, it was just really quick. If you blinked, you missed his time in Edmonton, but, you know, long time in store. in St. Louis Blue, Wayne Gatsky, with two signatures on that jersey. So Jeremy, obviously we got you on to talk about a lot of things, including the deal that never was.

You know, a lot of people were under the assumption that Matthew Kachuk was going to be a St. Louis Blue. And before we get into that, though, I was reading your piece, and sometimes we kind of forget that, you know, hockey players are actual human beings as well. We look at them as contracts and deals and everything else. And, you know, Matthew Kachuk finding out he was traded to Florida during Brady Kachuk's engagement party and he didn't want to steal his brother's thunder.

I love hearing stories like that. Break down that day, break down kind of that whole family occasion and how surprised were you, I guess is a secondary question that he is not AC. You don't have a St. Louis Blues, Matthew Kachukh jersey hanging up behind. No, I don't. My son's already asked about a Florida Panther Kachersi, though. So we'll have to ask on that. Yeah, so just a quick backstory, as I have to have.

had at the athletic. They were up in the New Jersey area, the entire Kachukh family for Brady's engagement. That happened last week. And then Thursday, I think, was the big night for that when he proposed. And then Friday, the next day, they were going out to a restaurant for dinner, a place called the Butchers Block in New Jersey. And I think Matthew was late getting to the restaurant. And there was about 12 people, and they sat down to the table. And then Matthew and Chantel, his mom, Keith Kachuk's wife, they get up and walk out of the room and then come back. and Matthew goes up to Brady and says, I've got a deal. We're traded to Florida and we're saying the eight-year extension.

I'm so sorry, Brady. I didn't mean for this to happen while we're celebrating your engagement. And he said, no worries, bro. This just makes the engagement in the week all that much better. So they got the deal down and the two brothers were able to give each other a big hug. Were you surprised that he's not in St. Louis? Well, I was going to tell Haley, I haven't had a chance to talk to her. But oh my gosh, we don't have to write a Matthew Kitchuk to St. Louis story for the next eight years at least.

Maybe. So was there some surprise there? Yeah, I think so. Like the way I handicapped it is I felt like there was a better than 50% chance that he would be a St. Louis blue. I felt like there was just enough talk, chatter, not just the past couple years, but even in the weeks leading up to this signing that there was a chance he would come here to St. Louis. But I can tell you, and we've reported it, that he had Florida on his list. He was really high on Florida. His folks were building a place down there in Naples about an hour and a half away from sunrise. You got the, no taxes, no state taxes, you got the beach, you got all that stuff. But as he stressed at his press conference, guys, he said he feels like they're really close to winning. He doesn't care about past performances. All he cares about is looking forward. So I think it's a great place for him, but yes, I do think it was a pretty surprising here in St. Louis. Going back to the taxes thing, do you think that kind of thing is going to have an impact around the league?

Yeah, it's a great question. And it's nothing new. Obviously, that's been, everybody's been talking about that the past, what, 10? 15 years in terms of when the salary cap's been around and you can get guys to come to your state if you're in a state income tax place. And I think with this situation in particular, Sarah, look at Matthew. If I can do the math, right, you're talking $9.5 million over the course of the eight years. I want to say it's $5 to $6 million in taxes that might be added to the length of his contract as opposed to, you know, if he would have gone to a state like Missouri. And please, you know, I'll have to double check the math later on.

But, you know, it's quite a big sum of income tax money that you're not paying when you go to a place like Florida. I think that does weigh into it. I don't think it makes the ultimate decision. But I do think, you know, for a player like him, when you already want to go to a place like that, it just, you know, it's icing on a cake. Do you think the league should do something about that? Yeah, I know that I've gotten a lot of questions about that in the past couple days just because it hit home for St. Louis fans. Yeah, I don't know what they can do. know, I haven't been a, you know, a big contributor to this conversation in the past.

So I'd probably want to know more about the particulars about, you know, how it would impact the league, how it would impact free agency, how it would impact the salary cap, things like that. There's probably some things that I'm not up to speed on to give like a full comment on that. But I do think that it is an advantage for teams like that, Sarah. And, you know, there's a number of them. It's not just Florida. I mean, you have a lot, you know, Jesse, I believe, is another one. So Jesse, maybe you can touch on that. But I do think that it does give some of these teams at advantage because it is some

extra money in these guys' pockets. When I looked at that list, to me, it looked like it was St. Louis and the teams with no state income tax. Like, is that, is that accurate? Is that the accurate way to look at it? Or was it just kind of those are some of the teams he liked and it was a coincidence? Yeah, no, I think there's probably something to it. Yeah, definitely a trend there when you look at it.

And, you know, his agency is Newport, right? And they're looking for great contracts, great money situations. You know, I will say this about that list. We put that list out, and it wasn't the concrete list that Matthew Kitchuk handed the Calgary flames and said, hey, these five or six teams. It was a list of teams that I had kept track of over the past year or two. You know, Matthew Kuch, if he ever left Calgary, here's the teams that he might be interested in. So, you know, he's mentioned Nashville along the way. He's mentioned Dallas along the way, teams like that. But I think as it got closer, maybe a couple of those teams fell off the list. What it really came down to, and I know this for a fact, is that it came down to Florida,

St. Louis, and Carolina. Those are the final three teams before he made that choice to go to the Panthers. You know, Jeremy, something else that jumped out from your piece that, you know, everyone seems to think, and I understand why, that a player automatically wants to play at home. We said the same thing with Johnny Gujarre. He's going to New Jersey. That's where he's from. But, you know, Brady Kachuk kind of bringing up the fact that there are all. lot of distractions when you play at home. Things like people constantly asking you for tickets and people, you know, you know so many people that suddenly it's almost like part of the job. How much you think that came into play? And not just with Kachuk. I mean, is that something that

we kind of overlook at times where being right in your hometown isn't necessarily all cracked up to be? Yeah, I think it did come into play. There were some readers who asked, you know, did we overplay the idea that he really wanted to play in St. Louis, Matthew Kachuk. And I don't think we did because I think that if the right trade was there and if Calgary was overwhelmed by the blues trade and Matthew Kachuk liked the term. And perhaps there wasn't an offer from Florida. I do think that it would have been a fine idea and he would have done it. He would have played in St. Louis.

But I just think that the, and I know that because I've talked to some people close to him about that. But I just feel like the way things transpire, the Florida trade was the one that was overwhelming. The term on the deal, 9.5 times eight, the no state income tax. And again, I mentioned it again, he really liked the idea of going to Florida, you know, the beach. And one thing Matthew said to me, he said in that article is I'm just not making a decision based on 2022. This is the next eight years of my life. I'm probably going to raise a family. What a great place to have a family down there in the beach area. So I just think that. He would have come here if those would have been the best circumstances,

but I think he was perfectly fine going somewhere else. And then after the fact, then when you talk to Matthew and you talk to Brady, you could tell there were conversations between the brothers at some point about, yeah, that might be a little tough to play in the hometown, especially a player of Matthew's caliber. Like he was just going to get it over the head with the requests and things like that. That would have been tough. Yeah, when it was Boston, Carolina, my brother kept asking me for tickets.

I'm like, I'm not even like involved in this. But what I'm kind of confused about about this whole thing is how much was this Kachuk's decision and how much was it the flames? Yeah. So here's a situation on that. It is tough to read because Calgary wants the best package, right? And Matthew Kachuk wants to go where he wants to go. This is the way I view it. I view it that the Chucks, especially Matthew, they wanted to work with Calgary.

They, you know, obviously Johnny's situation was Johnny's situation, but I think people in Calgary, including the management, felt jilted that he goes to Columbus 11th hour, right? And so the first thing that I heard after the Johnny thing happened is we're going to work with Calgary. We're going to try to find out the best trade. And so, you know, I don't pretend to know exactly what trade offers came in when, say from the Blues, from Florida, the chronological order of those trades. But I think that I don't think that it got to a point where Matthew, went to Calgary and said, hey, only work with St. Louis. That's the only team that I want to work with. If you don't find an extension with them, a trade, then, you know, I don't know what to tell you. I think it became a situation where once Florida's offer came in and Calgary saw that it was the best offer, you know, Matthew said, yeah, I'm totally fine going there. So, you know, it doesn't really answer your question specifically. I just think that it was somewhere in the middle. It was working with Calgary, find the best trade package. And then also, yes, I would definitely go there. So I would pick that place even if it means not going to St. Louis.

We spent a lot of the first segment of this show praising Brad Trillivig for getting what he did, given that his hands appeared to be tied, obviously not, given the return. Were you as surprised as we were? And what are you hearing from maybe even people around the league? Because I'm wondering if GMs who were in the Kachukes sweepstakes kind of said, holy shit, they got a lot. Yeah, it definitely was a return. You know, first of all, what, it's 10.05 on a Friday night.

So you're kind of scrambling to get the story out, things like that. But then, yeah, I think, you know, you see the trade, you see it's Huberto, you see it's weaker. You see it's the, even though it's a 25 first round pick, it's still a first round pick, even though it's conditional. You know, that's a monster package. You guys probably touched on it earlier. You know, I think it makes a lot of sense for Florida.

I mean, I love Jonathan Hubertoe, and this is a lot to give up for a player. But when you're basically cashing in a player who's 29, 30, Yes, he had 100 plus points last year, but now you're getting a guy who's 24 who comes in a little bit different type of player. And I think that's how they looked at it. And, you know, I don't know if they were going to be able to resign Hubertoe and we're, obviously, they have one more year left on their contracts. We'll see what happens in Calgary. But to me, the deal made a lot of sense for Florida, even though they were giving up a lot to be able to bring in a guy like Matthew Kachuk. And yeah, I think people around the league, as you guys know, we're floored by that.

But, you know, it's all going to come down. Can they at least sign Huberto? I think he's commented that he would be open to the idea of staying in Calgary. And, you know, if they can get an extension. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so if they can get an extension with those guys, wow, that's a massive haul compared to what some people thought they might have got for Matthew Kachuk. Jeremy, you've been all over this story.

And obviously the Blues were involved. But I think part of the reason you're so able to be so on top of it is the Blues haven't given you much to report on this off season. It seems like they've been pretty quiet. To kind of transition to your blues coverage, what have you thought of what the blues have done this year? It seemed like their window for kind of getting a win was still open. And some big time guys, David Perron, some big time guys left town and they didn't do a lot to add. What do you think of their offseason so far?

Yeah, let me give me a little bit of the backdrop, Jesse, before I tell you about the offseason, is that the one thing that Doug Armstrong has been really good at, and he's been good at a lot of things. The one thing he's been exceptional at is having a core of players who are helping the, team win in the last 10 years, but also building that core underneath. It's almost like a sub-core so that those guys are ready to play when it's the time to play. He doesn't give up a lot of assets. He doesn't give up a lot of prospects. You know, he has at some point, like the Ryan-Oryon-Riley trade, he gives up Tage Thompson. You know, Tage goes on to Buffalo and, and plays well for the savers. But I think that he's been able to build that sub-core and make it ready to keep it going.

They've got the fifth or six best points percentage in the 10 or 12 years that Doug Armstrong has been the GM of the Blue. So that's kind of an example of what he's been able to sustain over all these years. Now, all that said, he doesn't get caught up in the emotion. He didn't get caught up in the emotion of not bringing Petrangelo back. Back is back. You look at Pat Maroon. It might seem like a fourth line grinder type guy, but, you know, he left. He goes to Tampa, signs a $900,000 deal and wins a couple more cups.

So blues fans have been upset by some of these moves, but he's been able to move forward. And so now I get to this off season, you know, David Prawn, him not resigning in St. Louis, Louis might not have opened up a lot of eyes around the league, but it was a big deal here. A lot of people disappointed that David Prawn isn't back with the Blues. And on top of that, if you get Matthew Kachuk, great. I think that people look at that situation and say, okay, we basically lost Pron, picked up Kachuk, that worked out great. but now you don't get a chuck you know i think there's a lot of people saying okay well what's the

plan on top of that you lose billy huso and that jesse you're a goalie guy that's a big deal um you bring in thomas grace and he's not going to be a guy who's going to push jordan binnington so you know i'm doing a mailbag this week guys for the athletic and 90% of the questions were okay what's going on we're not any better than we were when we lost to colorado and what is their left that Doug could do that could make the team better before opening night. Shane and I are going to address that in a story, probably be up at the athletic on Thursday. So we'll touch on that. But, you know, is he trading Tarasenko for Pasturnak?

I don't know. I mean, there's still things that you could do. But I think that at this point, this team doesn't look as good as it was at the end of the season. Without that Kachuk contract, though, they've got a little more leeway cap-wise, right? Yeah. So they're dollar for dollar right now. They're up against the cap. so they would have had to move out $9 million to fit Matthew in there.

But kind of going back to that subcour, basically what happens here is, so Peron's not on the books, right? You sign Robert Thomas to eight times 8.1. And now you have Jordan Cairo to sign. So you're bringing in those younger players, giving those guys the big deals. If it means that Peron's not coming back, hey guys, maybe running O'Reilly's not coming back after this year.

We don't know. Maybe Doug Armstrong doesn't know at this point. But basically he's building up that young group to kind of take over. But you're right. Yeah, without a Cichuk deal on there, he's able to do some more things. But I think that was more about the future than it was this year. Well, like Jesse said, you haven't been super busy with signings, but super busy, obviously with this Cachuck fun drama type story.

I don't even know what to call it because for the second time in two weeks, we've been pretty shocked at what happened. So thanks so much for taking the time, Jeremy. I really appreciate it. Love the Jersey and come back again soon. Yeah, I'm going to hockey BB Gretzky and make sure you're right about him playing in Edmonton. It was so quick.

It was so quick. They put him with curry because they thought there'd be great chemistry, but it just didn't work the way people. It didn't work the way it did with Brett Hull in that quick time in St. Louis. So they had to move them, and he signed as a free agent somewhere else. You're just talking about weird statues. Gratsky has a statue outside of the Oilers Arena. I wonder why that is.

So strange. So, so. strange. Thanks you guys for having me. Really appreciate it. Good to see everybody. See you later. Jeremy,

thanks so much. Always a pleasure. Jeremy Rutherford, senior writer for the athletic covering, the St. Louis Blues. All right, guys, your favorite time of the show in mind, Rapid Fire.

It's not very often that I could take something that we talked about last week and literally copy and paste it into this week's notes, but we're still looking at the same group of UFAs that have not signed anywhere yet. We've got the cadres, the Klingbergs, the Sue Bands, Stassany, Kessel.

I'll ask you the same question I asked you last week. Which one are you kind of the most surprised that we haven't seen inked? Is it, is, is Codry just the answer here, Jesse? Yeah, and it's, I wonder if they're like, what is the reason that this is taking so long? I can remember a couple years back in baseball, like none of the free agents signed. And it was kind of a, they were all saying like, oh, it's a conspiracy. The owners, they're all getting together like collusion. They don't want to pay us.

So we're just not going to sign until the market goes. up. I'm wondering if all these guys that are left are just like, these deals that they're offering us are not what we want. We're all just going to kind of wait until the market changes a little bit. I honestly don't know. I'm curious if it's connected in any way because this seems strange, Sarah. We're in real conspiracy theory hours. It's been this long since we've been signed. I thought it was taking kind of long because the abs were going to sign in, but now it's taking like suspiciously long for them to do that. So I am wondering what's going on and if there's going to be like an 11th hour change.

I'm getting that vibe. Jesse, we've changed our tune from that day, you know, free agent day where we're like, they're choosing where they're going to spend the next seven years of their lives. Let them take as long as they want. Now we're like, what the hell is taking so long? We're all going to be on vacation and it's going to break. That's why we're glad.

That's exactly it. It's like, come, I remember the day of that show, we're sitting there going, wait a minute. Is Codry going to sign before we actually do the show here? We are weeks later. Still hasn't signed. Yesy Pooley-Arvy, one-year deal did sign with the Oilers, avoiding that fun arbitration hearing that we joked about last week. It gets $3 million after a career high, 36-point season. Any thoughts on this one, Sarah?

It's just a weird case. I feel like they've kind of sabotaged his career with all the back and forth. I hope he gets traded and we get to see what his real potential is. It just feels like that's kind of inevitable. I agree with all that. This is an audio medium, Jesse, so people can't see you naughty. nodding so loud. Yeah, I totally agree with everything Sarah said.

It seems like that's just a bad situation. Like you see players go somewhere else and turn into something else. I feel like that feels like one of those situations where he could really be a better player outside of Edmonton. Sarah, we ended off last week's show with you talking about being on Nito Nino Nider Rider Watch. We now know National Predators signing a two-year contract worth $8 million. Your thoughts on this one? Yeah, it was a shockingly good contract. He is such a solid player.

He was producing on Jordan Stahl's wing, and that was mostly just a checking line purely. He is a great net front power play presence, and obviously I think Pasha Reddy kind of replaced him in a better way for the Cains. But I do think they probably could have made this swing, too. But now it seems like they're going to sign Naches if they're doing this. So writing's on the wall. Jesse?

It seems like Nashville is having a quietly good thing. off season. I think we all kind of assumed they were going to trade Philip Forsberg and be like, like they've kind of been in the playoff conversation for what, 10 years, eight years. It's been a while. It felt like maybe that window was closing and Philip Forsberg was going to go somewhere else and they just weren't going to be any good. And that hasn't been the case. They kept Forsberg. They bring in a really good player in Nieder rider. I think, I think Nashville's kind of maybe even taking a step forward when I don't know, maybe it was just me, but I assume they were going to take a step back this year. No state income tax in Tennessee guys too.

Just want to mention that. Seeing us, it's been a theme for this show. And also Yossi is Swiss and so is Nino. So I guess he called Nino and was like, what's the least amount of money you'd take to come play with me? And they made it happen. It's funny how that works out. Okay.

And we're going to end on kind of a tough story. Bobby Ryan was arrested in Nashville at an airport for public intoxication. Of course, we know all about his history with substance abuse. and some of the demons he's had over the years. This morning he sent out a tweet right before we actually did this show saying, quote, I've had so many incredible messages today. Thank you for all of them. Today is day one again, mostly embarrassed, but I shouldn't be.

Today I'm waking up and choosing better. And I know I just want to say, you know, it is a tough story. And the way some outlets have handled it hasn't been classy. In my opinion, I know Sarah, you're in the same boat as me. but you just have to wish someone the best when something like this happens. And, you know, I can't pretend I know what he's going through, but all we can do is hope things turn around, like he said, day one again. Sarah, what do you think?

It feels like lately there's been a positive turning point about how we look at mental health. One hour ago, he tweeted that, and it already has 14.6,000 likes and a bunch of responses that are, we're in your corner. it's not the end, things like that that are very encouraging when it used to be very stigmatized. And I think he's so brave for kind of having this public conversation about it. And we're all rooting for him. Yeah, I couldn't agree more with Sarah in that I think we still have a long way to go in the way we view these things. But I think from the way Robin Lennar has the things he's said and the response he's gotten,

Carrie Price this year, the response that got, I thought was much, much better than it would have been maybe say five years ago. And this also, I think we're going in the right direction for sure. So again, all the best to Bobby Ryan. wraps up another show. Guys, what do we work it on this week? Jesse, we'll start with you. So I've got aside from my Golden Night stuff, I'm writing something.

I did this last off season where I compared teams Stanley Cup odds, like right when the season ends, right when the Avalanche won the cup to post-free agency and draft to see who improved the most, who improved the least. People liked it last year, but I got some comments to make it even better. Now we're going to go by percentage of change rather than total line change because I think that's a better tell.

So I'm going to write a story on the teams that got the most better and the teams that got the most worst this summer based on solely on Vegas odds, which that's people betting with their money. That is, to me, the most accurate representation of the public's view of the league. So that'll be a fun piece. Not the public's correct view.

Just the suckers view. Yes, their view. Sarah. I got to be honest because I can't do anything but be honest. My editor is on vacation, so it's like it's a substitute teacher and I'm not freaking on anything right now, but I'll figure it out. You're hurting your first, guys. Taking a break.

It is a lazy week for Sarah Sivian. Guys, thanks so much as always. We'll see you next week and I want to let everybody out there know. Remember, give us a follow on your favorite podcon. platform. Don't forget, leave us a rating and a review. It helps us out quite a bit. Subscribe to the Athletic Audio Plus on Apple Podcasts to get all the bonus content from the entire network. It works like this. You start with a 30-day free trial, then just 99 cents a month after that. And right now, you get an annual subscription to the Athletic for just a dollar a month

for six months when you visit theathletic.com slash hockey show. The athletic hockey show returns Thursday. The Ann Mendez and down goes round for Jesse and Sarah. I'm Rob. We'll talk you next week.