The Athletic Hockey Show - Tom Wilson suspended again, Buffalo Sabres at a breaking point with Tim Graham, Multiple Choice Madness, Hailbag, and more

Episode Date: March 8, 2021

First, Ian and Hailey break down yet another Tom Wilson suspension, this time getting seven games for boarding Brandon Carlo during last Friday’s Caps-Bruins matchup, the Calgary Flames naming Darryl Sutter head coach following Geoff Ward’s dismissal, the Vegas Golden Knights getting kicked out of their San Jose hotel mid-road trip, and more.Then, The Athletic’s Tim Graham stops by to discuss the anger and frustration building around the Buffalo Sabres organization as the team continues to flounder, his article talking to five former Sabres captains about the rough state of the franchise, the return of fans to the KeyBank Center at the end of the month, and more.Plus, to close things out, Ian and Hailey hit five Multiple Choice Madness questions and they open up the Hailbag and answer listener questions about the NHL’s lack of load-management and a hypothetical Jack Eichel-for-Filip Forsberg trade.And, don’t forget, you sign up for an annual subscription to The Athletic for just $3.99 a month when you visit http://theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back for another edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. It's Ian Mendezson, Haley, Salve, and in the driver's seats for this episode of this podcast. Coming up, we'll discuss the Tom Wilson suspension and whether or not the NHL got it right or got it wrong. Tim Graham drops by with a state of the Buffalo Sabres update for us, as Buffalo might be the most interesting team to monitor ahead of the trade deadline. We'll also get Hayley's thoughts on the fact that the team that she covers, Calgary Flames, had a coaching change last week. We'll do multiple choice madness,

which will include your choice to take any player from an American team for a playoff series, who you take in? Patrick Kane, Victor Edmund, who would you take? And we'll wrap up with some of your listener questions as well. And Haley, as we kick off another week, it's another week and another Tom Wilson controversy as the Capitals winger suspended for seven games

for that hit on Brandon Carlo. And it's interesting because this time, I'm actually seeing some people come to Tom Wilson's defense, saying this isn't the most egregious hit I've ever seen. This isn't that bad. Then you see the other side. This guy's a repeat offender. You can't let Tom Wilson get away with it. So they give them a seven-game suspension, Haley.

In a 56-game season, that's, you know, a little bit, almost like a 10 or 11-game suspension. My question to you, Haley, to kick off the show today, did the NHL's Department of Player's Safety? Did they get it right? Did they get it wrong? Were they bang on, a little off, with seven games for Tom Wilson? Yeah, well, I think, you know, one of the first things that I saw was, you know, the reaction from the other team, the Boston Bruins after. And I do believe that their coach said that it was a predatory hit. A lot of the guys were saying it was very dirty.

I mean, their teammate, the player was in the hospital. And there was no penalty called on that play. But then that seven game suspension did come down. It's Tom Wilson's fifth suspension. Regardless if you think it's the worst hit out of those five that he's been suspended for, I do think that in the rulebook, the fact that it was technically a boarding call allowed them to give him seven games. And I just think that for a guy with a preexisting history of dangerous hits, predatory if you want to go that. far as, you know, some have. I do think that the opportunity to be given the benefit of the

doubt and the opportunity to be given a lighter sentence is lost because of the amount of times that you've been suspended doing this. The NHL cannot make it seem like they're enabling this kind of behavior by not handing down a stiff suspension. So regardless of people think it's the worst hit in the world, I do think that it's important that the NHL did this because you can't keep putting players in their health and safety in danger like that. And, you know, the thing on Wilson is, Haley, he got a 20 game suspension. Last time he was suspended, 20 games for just obliterating Oscar Sunquist in a preseason game.

Now, he did get that basically negotiated down to 14 games, okay? Yeah. But again, the league handed up a 20-game suspension. Here's my only thought on this. And you tell me if you agree or disagree. I think that when you get suspended in the NHL, it should be an incremental kind of formula. Meaning if you got suspended for 20 games before,

that's the starting point for your next suspension. And by suspending somebody for 20 games in the past and then seven this time, what are you saying? You're saying, wow, what you did before was worse. So where I agree with. This one's not that bad. Yeah, this one's not that bad. But if we, if the point, like to me, the entire point of supplemental, you know, discipline

is to correct the behavior. Right. It's to correct the behavior. This guy has done it again. And I don't care if there's two years in between, three years in between or 10 years in between. It's a factor. And I'm not saying that this is the worst thing that he's done.

It's not. But like you said, he's a guy who has a. history. And to me, when you have a history, you have to, you can't just look at it in a vacuum and say, this is the hit on Carlo. It's probably worth five games. No, it is, it starts at 20 games because that's the last time we saw you. Like, if you had a, if you were in school or if you were any place of work and you got suspended for four weeks for some transgression, and they said, don't you ever do this again? And then, you know, later in the school year, you did something. They're like, okay, here's, you're off for three days.

What's the message? And that's the only thing I wonder about in all of this. Yeah, and I do think that's fair. And I guess the only thing is, you know, going by the book because it was technically boarding. That changes the amount of games that they're able to hand out. But at the same time, you know, I did find what the league actually said about this interesting

because, you know, I think some people were saying like, oh, what? So Tom Wilson can't hit. anyone against the boards just because they're not looking because it's Tom Wilson. But I think what the league said was, you know, Carlo and other unsuspecting players are eligible to be checked. But it's the suspension is because of the totality of the circumstances surrounding the hit. So like you said, they're not looking at this in a vacuum.

What separates this hit from others, this is what the league said, is the direct and significant contact to a defenseless player's head causing a. violent impact with the glass. And this is a player with a substantial disciplinary record taking advantage of a player who was in a defenseless position in doing so a significant force. So, I mean, I agree with all that. But I do think it's interesting what you raise about start from where it was last time. Because if they keep getting tacked onto 20 games versus I might get three.

I might get five. That might. I mean, the speed of the game is so fast that I don't know if you would actually think that in your head, especially if that kind of behavior is maybe ingrained into the way you play. But I certainly think that it would be interesting to see how much this would change if that was something that was implemented. Yeah, and Wilson's a really effective hockey player. This isn't a one-dimensional. Yeah. He's a really good hockey player when he, and like Brad Marchand, and this is where I think the irony is when you see the Bruins.

coming out and complaining about this. You're like, well, you do employ Brad Marchand. So let's just pump the brakes here a little bit on the hypocrisy, right? That's one of the things I always think about, Haley, when you see a vicious hit. It's the same playbook every time. The team whose player got hurt says, this is awful, throw the book at them. The other team, they're like, well, I'd have to see the replay. I have it like they just kind of, you know, they walk the line.

I wish everyone would just admit they were hypocrites. when it comes to the high hits and everything in hockey, and it would make life a lot easier. But, you know, listening to the Boston Bruins try and preach off a pulpit about, you know, player safety, it's like if the Houston Astros came out and started talking about cheating, I don't know, wouldn't you be like, I don't know? But the thing is, and I really like, by the way, the column that Fluto wrote last week for us in The Athletic on Brad Marchand, unbelievable piece on Marshan going for a dinner at the

Cassidy's house and how he's changed his game. So I do believe you can change as a player. I think Brad Marchand is a world-class player. And I do think that he's changed his reputation. But the Bruins have to remember that they have stood by their guy when he's been running a muck. And this is what sometimes unfortunately happens when you have the Wilson's and the Marshands on your roster, right?

Yeah, definitely. I agree. So Haley, last week, you and I were both covering the Ottawa Senator's Calgary Flames game a little bit from a distance. And Ottawa lays down a, or sorry, Calgary lays down a 7-3 beating of Ottawa. The last thing I'm thinking of in a 7-3 hockey game is the coach of the winning team is going to get fired. So walk our listeners through, because I think any time a coach is let go in the

National Hockey League in the middle of the season, it's an interesting and intriguing story, what was your surprise factor on seeing the Calgary Flames head coach, let go, Jeff Ward, after his. seven three win. Yeah, well, you know, there's not that many NHL coaches that I, you could probably say that have gone out on a winning note, um, you know, after being fired. So I think, you know, it, it wasn't so much shocking that there was a coaching change, but it was the timing of it coming right after a seven three loss. Um, I think that was pretty surprising. But I think that just signaled to me and probably to a lot of people that this was a bit of a fate accompli situation. You know, this was already decided. We're

regardless of what happened in that hockey game. You know, win or lose, we're going to make this announcement tonight. We're going to do it tomorrow. They obviously did it overnight. I think it was 1.30 Eastern time for you, Ian. So it was already decided. You know, that was pretty clear to me that that decision was already made, regardless of the outcome of the hockey game.

So that was the part that was a little bit shocking. But again, the way that the Calgary Flames had been playing, it wasn't surprising that there was a coaching change. I don't want to lay all of this at the feet of Jeff Ward. You know, I did enjoy my interactions with Jeff. I think he was a good person. I think that he came into this team in really difficult circumstances last year when he was brought in as the interim coach after Bill Peters was,

you know, he resigned after the really troubling allegations against him from Mackey Maloo. Um, he came into that really difficult situation. He did an excellent job. He helped, you know, turn that flame season. You know, he turned the tides. They made it into the bubble. Um, you know, they beat the Winnipeg Jets. They ended up losing to the Dallas stars in the first round. Um, but I think that was a really nice. It was a good, you have to give credit where credits do. He did a really good job in really difficult circumstances last season, but he just couldn't seem to get that kind of, it just didn't work this year. It just didn't, you could tell that it wasn't working. The flames were a, at best, 500 hockey team. And even when, even the games where they were

beating the Ottawa senators, Ian, I don't think you were watching that game and saying, like, ooh, this is a juggernaut. Like, look at these Calgary flames. Like, their puck possession numbers weren't very good. I think the Ottawa senators actually had more high danger and scoring chances than the flames. I think it was just, you know, catching a goalie on a bad night. You get Matt Murray, you get Joey to cord. Then the flames were just kind of, I mean, some of the goals, the one goal that Sean Monahan scored, like that that wasn't NHL defense against him. Like he had all the time and space in the world to, to snipe that shot. So even when they were winning, it wasn't exactly great hockey. So, you know, you can look at the scoreboard and you look at the record,

but you watch the team. And it just wasn't what Bradtree Living wanted. And so he made the change. And this was the most shocking part. I guess I buried the lead here because they brought in Darrell Sutter, who has not been behind a bench since he was let go from the L.A. Kings in, I believe, 2016, 17, he was a special advisor to Dallas Eakins in Anaheim. But, But, you know, he hasn't coached in three years and he hasn't coached the Calgary Flames in almost 15 years since 2005, 2006. So I think the fact that it was Darrell Sutter just added to the shock level because I think when, at least in this market when people were talking about, is there going to be a coaching change? Who could we bring in? It was like Bruce Boudreau, Gerard Galant, who would be better?

Oh, I want Boudreau. I want Gland. I don't think anyone thought that Daryl Sutter was an option. and I am so excited. Let me just say, I watched a 15-minute YouTube compilation of Sutterisms yesterday. And it's incredible. I don't know if you've ever heard of these Sutterisms, but somebody asked him, I'm getting so off topic, I apologize. This is a beauty of having our own podcast.

I can talk about random things. I'm not like embarrassing myself on the radio, just on our own national. show. Yeah. But he, somebody asked Daryl Sutter post game in L.A. after a loss. Like, what did you say to the guys in the room after this? He's like, flights at 11. Like, he's got a touch of Bill Belichick in him, right?

Where he can sometimes just be like two word answers and dry. But, you know, the guys who love him, like, I did not sound for a shameless book plug for me. I did a book with Jamie McClennon a few years ago. And, you know, one of the things, noodles, we did a whole chapter on Daryl Sutter. because, you know, noodles is like guys love them. Like the Daryl Sutter you see in the media is different than the Daryl Sutter that you'll see kind of in the media. Sorry, the media and the guy that the players know are two different things. And look, he's got two Stanley Cup rings from the L.A. Kings.

Like that carries a lot of weight. It's not like Daryl Sutter was coaching in Calgary, left for L.A., didn't have a ton of success. now the flames are bringing them back. No, they're bringing them back with two rings on his resume. So I'm always interested in those kind of mid-season coaching changes. You know, Haley, I thought one of the most bizarre stories of the weekend. So the San Jose sharks are playing at home to the Vegas Golden Knights. And Vegas is staying at the Fairmont Hotel in downtown San Jose.

And all of a sudden, the sharks, they kind of go back to their hotel and they're like, oh, by the way, the hotel's closed now. Due to COVID and the kind of financial difficulties, you got to go find a new place. Like in the middle of a road trip, the San Jose sharks got kicked out. Oh, sorry, the Vegas Golden Knights got kicked out of their hotel in San Jose. And now the league is scrambling too because now, you know,

you had these certain approved hotels. That's up in the air. Like, I got to tell you, this was a, this to me was a bizarre story to watch it play out where an NHL team was essentially four. to move and switch out of hotels in the middle of a road trip. And in the middle of a pandemic, too, like, imagine just having all of your stuff kicked out of the hotel and you're basically on the street. Just, okay, let's wait for the bus and let's go find somewhere to go.

Like, that is a... I feel like the Golden Knights were like the team. If you've ever been on like an all-inclusive or a trip where like your flight's at 5 p.m. But the hotel checkout's 11 a.m. And then you've got that five hours with your luggage. You just got all your bags. I guess I'll go to the pool, but I don't know, should I? Like, I guess I'll use the community shower.

Like, that's how I picture the biggest golden nights. Like, oh, man, like, what are we going to do for the next six hours here? Well, especially because of all the COVID protocols, too. Like, not that they would just go to the pool, but because the hotel got shut down. But it's not like the Golden Knights could just go somewhere and hang out. Like, these players are under very, very strict protocols. like they took the glass off the penalty box. Like you can't just go to a random restaurant with your entire team and sit there and wait for

for your plan. So that was a really weird story that came out. And the thing that got me too was like what all of a sudden happened to this hotel? Why were they not upfront about like their financial situation when the league approached them about like let's book this? And I mean, why not just let them. finish, I don't know, I don't know what filing for bankruptcy is like in America and if, like, why couldn't you, I don't know.

So let them finish the, let them finish their stay. Let everybody who's got to stay finish it and then, yeah. Like, that's terrible. Like, I just, it's so, and it's not even just the Golden Knights. Like, if there was other people in that hotel, imagine people in that hotel as well, sitting on the curb with Mark Andre Fleury. Like, this sucks, right? And I'm pretty sure in the CBA, you know, it's written into the CBA that these players have to stay in five-star hotels.

I believe so. I know that was it at least a couple years ago. So this wasn't just like a holiday inn that shut down. Like this is a five-star hotel that just filed for bankruptcy and closed. It's just very bizarre. And we should have looked to see if I should have looked to see if Jesse Granger. did anything because that would have been, like, imagine just being there and seeing that and getting guys to talk about what that was like.

Like, we should call up Jesse and ask, but maybe next time. See, I use him, we use them on the Thursday show for Granger Things. So maybe we'll ask him about that coming up on. That'd be fun. Yeah. What do you do when you get kicked out of a hotel? Yeah. See, now I'm picturing you mentioned a holiday.

And now I'm picturing Mark Andre Fleury at the Continental Breakfast at a holiday in Express, like waiting in line. He's probably a waffle guy, eh, waiting for the waffle maker? You know the one where you pour, you get the, you go up your cup. Yeah. And it pours the batter. Then you pour it into the maker. Oh.

And the bacon is always way too crispy at any continental breakfast, right? Yeah. And they, the eggs are always like wet. Oh, it's like, it's like that, they're fake eggs. It's like granular. Yeah. If you go to continental breakfast and you go and get anything but just like the fruit that doesn't look soggy, the waffles are probably safe. Like that's it.

It's not unless it's continental, it's free. Imagine paying for that buffet. Paying for all you can eat breakfast and getting that. Oh, I know. But you know what? Yeah. never on the rails. It was never on the rails. No. Not for months. No. All right, Haley, I will tell you that I think the most intriguing

story in the National Hockey League right now is the Buffalo Sabres. And I thought one of the best columns last week on our side at the Athletic was done by Tim Graham. And Tim reached out to a handful of former Sabres captains, granted them the cloak of anonymity to speak. And it was great to hear players that are so connected to the team, the community speak out. And you can sense there's palpable anger and frustration in Buffalo. And so that's what we want to get Tim on here is to kind of tap into that. So first of all, Tim, thanks for taking a few minutes to join Haley and I on the podcast today. Ian and Haley, I'm honored to be here. So let's ask the first general question, because you know that your market better than anybody, Tim. What is the anger level

frustration level towards the buffalo sabres this week. What kind of scale are we using here? Is this a 1 to 10 or a Scoville scale? I don't know. Maybe 1 to 10 might be the simplest way to kind of illustrate this. You know, I could be funny and say, oh, it's a 15. It could get worse, I think. And I think that there's also so much anonymity.

See, you know, you said that word. Now it's planted in there. There's so much apathy that's in this stew, this roiling stew of whatever it is that Sabers fans feel about their team. You know, even the stuff that would be considered positive a year ago, the fact that, hey, we got Jack Eichael, we got Jeff Skinner. I think that there's a growing segment of this fan base that wouldn't care if Jack Eichael got traded because they're just so upset and seeing this recurring nightmare every other night as the schedule has been of these Sabres games that are just getting more and more irrelevant. And I think we've probably already hit. It's not even getting increasingly irrelevant. They're irrelevant.

And in the market here, I think that it's a shame to say in such a proud hockey market, I think that the Western New York sports fan right now is just craving the NFL draft. You know, let's get to the draft. And that's, all right, a little bit of an offshoot of this. But it's kind of a strange time to be a Bills fan too, because they have incredible stability. Usually this time of year, you're talking about a coaching change or a GM change or they've lost a coordinator or what are they going to do at quarterback or you're talking about a top 10 draft. Who are they going to draft? Well, now all those people are back. All those positions are set.

So you have these Western New York sports fans right now that this should be the void. This should be the time when the sabers are dominant in their thoughts. And it's just not there. They don't care. I think that they're looking for something else. And I guess for context for people listening, you know, just to be able to compare, what would a normal hockey season where the sabers aren't looking like this? I mean, I guess it's been a little while. But what would a good buffalo sabers, you know, hockey season be like in Western New York?

Well, you'd be looking forward to even Tuesday nights whenever they were playing. You didn't even have to go to the arena. You know, this is a team that is intent. followed the games. Of course, we're talking about the pandemic, which makes it even tougher, this malaise. But you'd make an excuse to go to the bar on a Tuesday night. You have a few beers and watch the game.

You were watching it at home, whatever it was with your family, with your kids. It helps you get through these long winners, as it does in most North American. in hockey towns. It's a similar diversion, but in a place like Buffalo, you know, those, you know, you start getting into March. Things are getting bleak, you know, the gray, you know, maybe you're getting sunny, you know, two days out of seven instead of just one. But it's a needed mental crutch, I think. You need it for your, for your stability, for your

psyche. And yeah, it's just not there. You know, the fans, the stadiums generally fill you know, they've been bad. I mean, they're looking at 10 straight years and no playoffs. And Haley, you know, I covered them. My last game covering the Sabres as the beat writer. I was there for seven years. My last game was Chris Jewry and Daniel Breyer's last game with the Sabres. Things have taken a turn since then.

But I covered a bankruptcy. I covered the owners being led away in handcuffs. I covered, you know, the post-Dominic-Hashik era where, you know, Michael Peckas contract hold out or not. a hold out, but a contract dispute. All that stuff was so ugly. Gary Betman actually ran the team for a for a bit. And yet this is worse. I mean, the owner led away in handcuffs, embarrassed, you know, obviously humiliating to the entire region. I think the fans now are detached more than they were back then. And maybe it has something new with social media or the fact that the

bills are good and back then the bills weren't. And so maybe there's a comparison there that there's such a drop off. But I think that the angst from the fans is way worse now than it was even back then. Has anyone done the correlation between the team success and Tim Graham covering them? Maybe that was the problem. Maybe you were the key to this whole thing, Tim. Well, I covered a bankruptcy though. I'm my first year on the beat.

What, you know, Michael Pecca can't get signed. and Dominic Haskich wants out. So, I mean, there's a mixed bag there, Ian. Yeah. So what I really liked was your column last week where, and if listeners haven't had a chance to check this out, please do, because you went and spoke to five former captains of the Buffalo Sabres granting them, you know, anonymity

in exchange for a blunt assessment of the franchise. Was there anything in your conversations, Tim, with any of these former captains that really surprised you? Well, I'll just say for background. I did talk to more than five. There were some who didn't want anything to do with it for various reasons. And I'm not naming them specifically, but I'm naming some possibilities. Number one, maybe you just don't want to or don't feel comfortable. Maybe you work for another team in the NHL and you get a little nervous about that. Or maybe you're actually still getting money from the Pagulas in some capacity and you don't want to speak ill of the team. But of the five I did speak with, I would say that some of the that was mixed in. You know, they, they would also be included. They, I think that the common, the common theme is that Ralph Kruger is in over his head, that the head coach doesn't know what he's doing. And he is lost. And even these very, um, wise hockey people who were in the game at a very high level, which is why I went for former captains. You can, I could say I

spoke with even 10 former sabers. Let's say I spoke with 25 former sabers. The reader is going to wonder, well, who are these guys? I mean, you know, who I mean, what are we talking about? Fourth liners, you know, guys who, you know, maybe were up and down from Rochester. Who's Tim Graham get here? So I went for captains just so I could at least put the level at it's captains. I mean, these are people who wore the sea. They were invested in your organization in a very emotional way. You were then as fans probably invested in them. Now, granted, there have been some captains that aren't, don't, you know, there's a scale.

But that's what I went for it. So these are people who know what they're looking at. They follow the team still. And they are totally confused as to what Ralph Kruger's system is, why he benched. Jeff Skinner, why he made Jeff Skinner a healthy scratch when the team is crying for goals, and that's what Jeff Skinner does. They don't like the goal tending, but they don't blame the goaltending. They think that Kevin Adams, the general manager, should have done something more before then. And one, well, I don't want to get into individual captains. You mentioned the general

theme. And I think that the one that really stood out to me most, because I think a lot of people can look at what's happening on the ice and say, you know, the coach has lost his team is the leadership aspect of it. And while not being critical of Jack Eichael, there was a common theme that Jack Eichael should not be the captain, not because it's his fault, but because it's a team that should have invested more in leadership and character when you have a special player like Jack Eichael to throw the captaincy on him and expect him. and expect him just to handle things when he really has a very little life experience.

He's a young human being. And he hasn't experienced any success. It's losing, losing, losing. Who do you go to on this team when you say, look, Jack, or look, hey, to the leadership, how do we get out of this? Nobody on the team knows how. They've never experienced it. So I think that that is the thing that if you could cure it, if you could address one

of those concerns from those from the five captains that I spoke with, it would probably be having better leadership underpinnings on the team. And I guess, I guess it's a toss-up. I think, you know, Ralph Kruger's job status, obviously, is paramount in that conversation, too. I think that was a big one for me, the culture aspect and the leadership questions. Now, the one conversation that grabbed me was just the one where he said they're unwatchable. And this interview was aggravating me. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about that one? Yeah.

So I didn't intend to use it because it wasn't substantive on its face. It wasn't substantive. But how I was going to tell this story, it was originally going to be more of a traditional story where I would say this captain that, you know, and I would just write and I would obviously have in my, I would include statistics and whatever, but I chose to write the story. And for those who haven't had a chance to see it, it's more written in what is called an as told to style or like a guest column almost, although in the guest column, the author is usually anonymous. This was flipped. The author was giving anonymity to the, to the ghost, whatever the opposite of ghost writing is. That's what

this was. So I then had these, these now four columns, these four essays from these former captains. And it just hit me that to put it in the middle and to break up these essays, I think it does say something, even though the guy spoke however many words it was, a hundred words to me before he said he didn't, he didn't want to do it anymore, was still, it was funny in a, you know, heartbreaking way, if you're a Sabres fan, but it also, it really illustrated the guy's frustration level. So he didn't say much, but what he did say, I thought, was compelling enough to include it. Tim, before we let you go, one final question. Later this month, I think it's on the 20th of March, fans will be allowed to return to the Sabers home arena in a limited capacity. I want you to give us

your best prediction of the atmosphere, the temperature, like, what the feeling is, going to be inside that arena in Buffalo when they let the fans in this month? I think you have to be some kind of hockey degenerate to want to attend these games. You have a bunch of things working against you. Number one, it's at 10%. The team is terrible. And the border's closed off. So you don't even have the Maple Leafs fans or the Canadian fans who want to come over and watch their team. Beyond that, you need to be a a negative COVID test within 72 hours of the game. And you can't just get immediate turnaround on that.

So traveling in for the game, I mean, there's all kinds of different things. So you're probably going to have to be a Savers fan. So that rules out a lot of people who are going to want to go to this. And then you're going to have to put yourself through having a Q-tip jammed up your nose and maybe have to pay for it. Maybe you have to pay $60 to $100 for that. So there will be people there. I'm fascinated to see not how many, but who, like, who are these people?

And they may be coming, like you say, and I think maybe what you're getting at is, they may be paying and going through all this to boo the hell out of the team for the purpose of wanting to be heard. And that's not trivial. I think that that is something that a fan, they, they feel the need to be heard, especially in times like this. And so, yeah, it'll be, and I guess maybe this is me helping the Sabres sell a few tickets. With as quiet as it's probably going to be, your voice is probably going to be heard on television. So you're going to come through the radio broadcast. So, okay, all right, I've just talked myself into all 10% are going to get sold out.

because that's Western New York sports fans actually do have that in them. They'll pay the $6,500 for the nose test. Okay, they're all going to go. They're going to be sold. I'm sorry, I've talked myself into it. Imagine being a player and being, like, excited to have the environment of your fans back, and it's just people booing and screaming at you. It's like, I take it back.

I take it back. Yeah, I wonder what the sound of 1,800 people chanting in an arena. It's going to, it's going to be, it's going to sound sad. but they're going to want to, you know, they're going to be in unison. Maybe I'll go and just cover that. Maybe I'll buy a ticket and write about the experience. Yeah, well, listen, it's going to be interesting. Put that out.

No way, don't put that in there. Go ahead. I don't care. All right. Tim, and it was great to have you on. I still think we need to test this theory out. I think you should cover the Sabres for like two weeks and just see if their fortunes change. And then that way we can pin it on you that you,

that you were in fact the reason why this franchise unraveled. I'm willing. I'll give it a shot. There we go. Hey, thanks for doing this and stay safe and we hope to see you down the road. Thanks, guys. All right, Haley, that was a really fun chat with Tim Graham from Buffalo. And you know what? It's time to head on over to Multiple Choice Madness. This is where we hit on five questions in a multiple choice format from around the week in the national hockey.

And Haley, we're going to start with this because it was Hockey Day in America on Sunday. on the weekend. And I was thinking about who are the best players on American-based teams right now? Because I think when you look at the leading scores and you hear about the Art Ross trophy race, the MVP race, it's always McDavid and Matthews and Drysiddle and Marner and yada, yada, yada, yada. Well, what about the guys playing on American-based teams? So here's the deal, Haley.

I'm going to give you a team. You're starting a playoff series right now. And you can choose any player who currently plays for one of the American-based. teams. Who are you picking? Is it A, Patrick Cain from Chicago, B, Victor Headman from Tampa, C, Nate McKinnon in Colorado, D, the aforementioned Mark Andre Fleury from Vegas or E, I'll let you pick somebody else. Who are you going on? I mean, I'm never going for somebody else because that would just take me way to decide and that's not good, that's not good podcasting. If we're picking right now this, no, dead air for five minutes will I filter through everybody.

Right now this season, you know, if you asked me this last season, I would have said Nathan McKinnon. I thought he had an excellent year. This season's been, I think he's still an elite elite hockey player, but he has had a couple injuries here and there. It's kind of down to Patrick Kane and Mark Andre Fleury. For me, I think Flurry has shown once again, you know, know, you know, just the longevity of how long this guy has been, you know, an elite go-to starting goaltender is really impressive to me. There was so much drama last year, you know, with Robin Leonard and now, you know, I think Flurry is kind of solidified that he's, he's the guy here in

Vegas. I mean, he's 12 and 3 and has just under a 950, say, percentage if memory serves. So, you know, Patrick Cain's in, you know, the other day, or last week, week with Dom. We talked about how Kane is, you know, the best American player ever. And it's hard to not go with Patty Kane when he's having such a great year. But, you know, we've seen how elite goaltenders can, can steal you a cup in the playoffs. So I'm going to go with Mark Andre Fleury. You know what? You go on with flour. I think it's because we, we planted the image of him waiting and making waffles. It's just so likable. And I honestly like from everything you ever hear about Mark Andre Fleury, like I wouldn't be shocked if that was actually factual.

Yeah. No, but you know what? I'm going with Victor Headman. You know, Haley, I give me the defenseman who can log between 25 and 30 minutes a night. He's back. He had a great game on the weekend. I think he's back leading all defensemen in scoring. I think Victor Hedman is the best defenseman in the game.

And I'm not even sure it's close. Like this guy has really turned into an elite dominant defender. We saw it in their Stanley Cup run last year. I just, the idea, and look, I love McKinnon and Kane for the offensive upside. Flurry's obviously got a great resume, but if I have an opportunity every night where I know for 25 to 30 minutes of the night, I'm going to have Victor Headman on the ice, give me that option. So that is what I would go to. Okay, question number two, and this kind of came to mind, Haley, for me, after the hit from Tom Wilson on Brandon Carlo, it wasn't penalized in the game. And you knew that the Bruins were angry.

So here's my question, Hale. Should the NHL allow for video review for dangerous hits, possibly allowing a player to be ejected from the game if they deem the hit to be dirty? A yes or B, no. So I'm going to use that same scenario, Haley, as we had on Friday night Bruins play in the Capitals. Let's say you're Boston and you're irate

that that play, why don't you see Brandon Carlo helped off the ice. So now let's say you're Bruce Cassidy. And you get a challenge. You know what? I'm going to challenge that. I want you to look at that again. And if it's a penalty, he's out of the game. If it's not, I'll take a two-minute minor.

So I'm going to go ahead and say yes. Haley, I'd like to see this happen because far too often, the refer, things happen so quickly on the ice, referees miss it. And in every other situation where there's some question of things happening too fast, offside to the puck, cross the line, goalie interference, we go to video review or there's a mechanism in place for it. Dangerous hit?

Nope. Well, we're just going to let that, uh, let that be decided and then later on if there needs to be a suspension. Well, I'll tell you what, the Boston Bruins could have benefited in that game if Tom Wilson got thrown out. And too often the team that is victimized in these situations don't get the benefit of immediate justice. So I would like to see the ability for coaches to throw some sort of flag and say, look at that again, please, because a five-minute penalty in the game is just as important in my opinion as a goal.

Yeah, and I think like we're going to spend, you know, 10 minutes looking at if a guy's skate was an inch over the line, but we're not going to look at if somebody was like seriously injured and somebody deserves to be in the game or not. I think that just shows like a weird, you know, list of priorities. So I would agree with that. You know, I'm always tentative to add more coaches challenge and more video reviews and more reasons to delay games. But I do think that player safety is something that is important.

So that would be, you know, I'm leaning on the side of yes. But I also wonder if there's a happy medium where you don't have to have a coach's challenge for that. Like someone should just be able to call upstairs, hey, review this and just do something like that. Like, I don't know if that's possible. Though without stopping the game, can't somebody upstairs watch the replay and say, ooh, yeah, he's out of here.

call down, stop it for a second, pull them out. I mean, I don't know if that's realistic. It ends up being the same amount of pause. Now I've just talked myself out of it. So then, yeah, I'm going to go with yes. Because, you know, like I said, we're going to say that it's worth it to look at it for guys, you know, an inch or like a millimeter over like the line to be offside. But we're not going to protect players in these situations. So I think I would like to see that.

I agree with you. Okay, question number three, Haley. I'm going to put you, we're going to put ourselves in the shoes of Oilers General Manager Ken Holland. He's looking at his call display, Haley. He sees a call coming in from Buffalo and Kevin Adams. Kevin Adams says, would you send me Leon Drysidal? I'll give you Jack Eichael. Haley, should Edmonton entertain a potential Leon Dreisdell for Jack Eichel trade?

A yes, B, no. I don't think so. But my Eichel trades last week got me in the dumber list. So I mean, I don't think so. No, I wouldn't do that. No. And I'm just, I know that Eichel is highly skilled. He's a talented player.

But so is Leon Dreysidal. I mean, he was the MVP last year. You know, he works well with McDavid. He can, he's shown that, you know, he works well on his own line. I know people have raised some questions about his defensive game, but when you're scoring at the rate that Leon Drysidal does, who actually, like, you can get away with defensive lapses. So, and I don't think Oilers fans would go for that trade.

Like, if you tweeted that right now, and you should, Oilers fans, like, I hope I want to see the response. If you tweeted Oilers fans, Drysiddle for Eichl, I'd want to see, I'd want to see the response. No, well, we'll just wait for the feedback to come into this podcast. Like, I don't know, but I'm, I'm torn on this one, only because Haley, it's not like the Oilers are having a ton of success, right? Like, like, at some point, do you need to change up the formula in Edmonton? I don't know.

Like, I wonder about that sometimes. And Ikel's a touch younger. He is locked in for a long-term deal. Imagine you had Connor, because remember a few years ago when the draft was McDavid Eichel, McDavid Eichol, imagine he had both of them. I would tend to say no. I would tend to say I wouldn't do it, but I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand because. if you want to potentially change the culture, the feel in Edmonton,

you're going to have to do something drastic, right? So I don't know. But I love Dry Saddle. I think he's one of the best five or six players in the game. I also think Ikel happens to be one of the best 10 or 12 players in the game when he's going. So it would be interesting. And I love, like, I just, and maybe it's probably more wishful thinking. Like, I just wish the NHL was bolder and we saw more kind of flashy trades with stars.

We just don't see that. So maybe it's more wishful thinking than anything else. I mean, I think that if the Edmonton Oilers, like I think that some of the main questions that we've seen about the Oilers is not questions of their top end talent. It's been their depth, right? So I feel like if the Oilers are to make a move to try to make them better, they should be going for ways to establish their bottom six. You know, maybe a huge shakeup could do it. But even if you switch out Eichl for dry-sidal, your bottom six and your depth is still a major question. So how much is that actually? solving and is it just swapping a star for a star and then you're in the same boat. It's like, okay, well, we have two great players. We have two good lines. What else do we have? And it's not a disrespect to their bottom six.

I just, I know that I've seen, you know, the biggest questions is when the oilers aren't going super well, it's because their depth isn't scoring. I'm going to, we're going to isolate that clip and send it to Tyler Ennis for you. Okay. On the question number four, Haley. On the question number four, we've got some, some kind of surprising players that are in the top 10 in goal scoring in the NHL. So here's my question, which player who's got at least 12 goals so far this season is the best surprise story?

Is it A, Dustin Brown in L.A., B, Vincent Trocheck in Carolina, or C. Chris Kreider back on the horse with 12 goals. I'll go first on this one, Haley, I'm taking B, Vincent Trocheck. And you know what? I think part of it is I was in the arena, whenever that was two or three years ago. I cannot escape the sound. And this is when we had fans in the stands in Ottawa. Vincent Trochec broke his ankle on the ice.

And I can still remember the screaming from up in the press box and hearing it. And for Vincent Trochec, the season before that, Haley, he was a 30-goal guy. The three seasons kind of since the injury, he's had 10 goals and 50, that's the year he got hurt, 10 and 55, 11 in 62 and 10 in 55. He's out of the gates with 13 goals in 23 games. It is so great to see him back because, like I said, I still have that image and that moment and that sound of him screaming inside the arena. And I think it's a great story.

And I love Dustin Brown and Kreider coming in with 12 goals, but I got to tell you, Vincent Trocheck with 13 goals, give me that is the best surprise story for me. That's gross. I hate hearing stories like that. As somebody who, you know, played sports and had my fair share of injuries and help my teammates off the field after, you know, tearing their ACL for the third time, hearing an ankle pop and the screams. Like, it just makes me, makes me cringe.

But, you know, we had the conversation a couple weeks ago, I think, where Dustin Brown was in the conversation. And, you know, I've been impressed, I think. I would say Dustin Brown, I think, for the most part, because of the difference between the expectation and the product right now, I think there was probably, you know, a fair amount of people who were, writing columns about is Dustin Brown done a couple years ago? You know, he had some really great peak years under Daryl Sutter. You know, he played his role. He played it really well. He was a great player for those L.A. King's teams that were winning. And then he kind of had a bit of a drop-off. You know, I believe he's already passed his season total from a couple years ago where he only scored

11 goals, 14 goals back to back. I don't have it up in front of me, so I do apologize if that's incorrect, but, you know, I think, you know, to have 12 goals already right now, I think that's great. And, you know, the Kings have been, you know, they're not like an elite team in the league. But I think, again, it's the expectation versus what's actually happening right now. And so I think I'm going to go with Dustin Brown because I think a lot of people were probably thinking that he was done, or at least just regressing. So it's been, it's been nice to see him kind of, you know, producing at this level again. Fifth and final question, Haley, March the eighth International Women's Day. Going to end with this question. When do you think we'll see a woman as general manager in the National Hockey League? Is it A, within the next five years, B, within the next 10 years, C, maybe at some point in the next 20 years, or D, it simply will not happen in our lifetime. Haley. You know, I think it's a good question and I think that it will happen.

I just think, you know, with with any kind of position, with GM, coach, whatever it may be, you know, these women and the men, they need to have, you know, the, the, the resubate and the experience, right? So I think that it's not going to be, you know, I think I would say within the next 10 would be safer. I mean, I would love for it to be the next five because there are some, you know what, I think it'll be between A and B. because I think that there are some women who are, you know, ticking off the checks to get there. There are, you know, you look at some of the people and the women in the front office in Seattle. You know, I think there's some people who, like, there's some really, really smart hockey minds, great analytics minds. Alexandra Mandricki, I don't know if I butchered the last name. But, you know, she has been tagged as a really smart hockey mind.

that's somebody who could get there in five to ten years if that's what she wants. I think Florence Shelling, she's the general manager of FC Burn. I'm having a struggle with my names today, but she's a general manager right now for a men's team. And I think she could get there in five to ten years if that's what she wants. So I think there's women who are, you know, in positions to become qualified, like legitimately qualified to be NHL gender managers because that's what I always see all the time. And I think sometimes people use that as a negative, like, oh, well, if she's qualified, she'll be able to get the job. And I think the biggest issue I have with people saying, if she's qualified, she can do it,

is that, you know, we don't see a ton of women or we haven't until now. I think we're starting to see it happening now. There's a lot more opportunities in those different positions. But I think for a while, we weren't seeing women given the opportunity to become qualified. Like women weren't getting to be the general manager of a European club. Women weren't being able to, you know, work in hockey operations or, you know, be a general manager with the USA hockey or the USHL. And we're seeing that now. And so I definitely think that there's several women and I didn't even name all of them

who are going to become qualified to be able to do this if that's where they want their career to take them. Kendall Coins Gofield comes to mind too. She just got hired by the Chicago Blackhawks, you know, six months ago, six or seven months ago. And she said, like, I'd love to be a general manager one day if that's where my career takes me. So I would say five to ten years. Yeah, you know, as I look at this, Haley, I think the most significant story in the last six to 12 months on this particular topic would have been the Miami Marlins and baseball hiring Kim Heng to be the general manager. And I think that that is, that was so groundbreaking that it's going to have a ripple effect in sports.

That glass ceiling or however you want to describe it has been shattered. And so I think the Seattle Cracken 100% would be that team, right? It feels like it's going to be a forward-thinking team that does something like this. So I'm actually going to, Haley, I'm going to be super optimistic here. I'm going to say within the next five years. And I think a big part of it is we have seen it in Major League Baseball. I think we've seen some great things in the NBA. I think of Becky Hammond with the San Antonio Spurs.

I think we've just seen some really forward-thinking, progressive things happening in sports. And I'm going to be super optimistic here. And I say within the next five years, we will see that. Haley, as we always do, we wrap up the show with some of our listener questions. We call it the Hale bag because we open up Haley's mailbag and we merge the two words. It's called the Hale bag. So we threw this out on Twitter, Haley, earlier today. I got a couple of questions.

This is one of my favorites, Haley. This comes in from Jean-Claude Trans-Am on Twitter. One of the best usernames out there. Jean-Claude Trans-Am wants to know, gang, why aren't more teams doing load management for their players? I understand that these are all four-point games, but there's a lot of injuries going on this year. Why don't we see more load management happening in the NHL?

Yeah, I think that's a good question. You know, I, I think it is a big part of it is because it is four point games. And I do wonder, you know, everything, we've had this conversation so many times about how tight the East Division is going to be, how tight the North Division is. You know, there's some serious playoff races happening already. And I think that for teams, if a guy says that they're good to go, the team's going to put them in because they believe that guy is going to give them the best opportunity to win that

game. We're certainly seeing that with some goaltenders who have been, you know, carrying a really heavy load in terms of their starts. So, and I, and I just, we haven't seen load management like the NBA and the NHL really ever. Am I right, Ian? I just, I don't think that's ever really been a thing that the NHL has done. It's just, you talk to these guys and if they're good to go, they want to be in. And I don't know if that's a culture thing. You know, you can argue whether it's smart or not, like it's a really tough season. It's really compact. You've got to get. to the finish line, you've got to get to the playoffs. But when have we ever seen load management

in the National Hockey League? I just don't think that's something that if you went to a hockey player and said, hey, do you want the night off to just rest? They would be like, no. Right. And then they would be labeled as soft or something like that. Yeah. And it's a weird culture thing, right? 100%. And, you know, when I think load management, I think of Kauai Leonard or LeBron James. And it's funny because remember, the NBA actually, It became such a pervasive problem in the NBA a couple of years ago, Haley, the league stepped in and said, you can't do this. No more. No more.

But the reason why they did it was because they didn't want, I think one of the games was LeBron James sat out in Memphis and the Memphis crowd. They were like, you can't, like we bought tickets. But if ever there was going to be a year for load management, wouldn't it be the year where there's basically no fans? And you have a taxi squad. Yeah. Like this would be the year. And you're playing this condensed, 50, you know, six games and essentially 100. 15 days for most teams.

Like, it's okay. Like, give Sidney Crosby a night off. Give Patrick Cain a night off. Give whoever you think is north of 28 or 29 that might need a night off. Give them a night off. Give Victor Headman a night off. I think that you're doing it right. Here's a quick question, kind of a side offshoot of all of this.

This is what I wonder too, Haley. And it's kind of a load management thing, okay? If you watch an NFL football game, when a team is up by like four or five touchdowns in the third or fourth quarter, they pull the entire starting team, especially the quarterback, right? Like the quarterback gets pulled out of the game. We don't want to risk injury.

Do you think we'll ever see that in the NHL where let's say a team, I'm going to pick the Vegas Golden Knights. Let's say Vegas is beating down on someone seven to one in the third period. Do you think Peter DeBoer would ever say, you know what, Mark Andre Fleury, you're out of the game. You're out.

Make sure that Robin Lennar or Dan's or whoever's backing up, you've been stretching, we've been letting you know, but we pull you out of the game. Like we've never seen that in hockey. Would that ever make sense? No, because I think we see the opposite, right? It's when you give guys like the home money, you give them the garbage minutes. We see it when it's the opposite. We'd see that if Mark Andre Fleury got shelled and the Vegas Golden Knights are down 7-1. Yeah.

We could see Mark Andre Fleury pulled at the end of the second and then say, okay, Robin Leonard, this game's lost anyway. It's going to be garbage time this period. Let's go and get our backup some minutes. That's what we see in the National Hockey League, not like, okay, we're up really high. Let's take our guy out and put somebody else in. I don't think we'd see that because I don't know. And I guess that's just a weird culture thing again. Exactly.

I don't think we've ever seen that because it's just hockey. In other sports, you take out, you usually remove the stars in a lopsided game, but not necessarily hockey. Anyway, I just thought I'd throw that out there. Maybe some listeners would love to. That happened to be in high school basketball. Wait, were you taken out or were you one of the late subs? No, I was.

Haley, go get some garbage minutes. We're up by 50. Here you go. Get off the bench. No, no. We had a real, we won back to back like championships, provincial championships with our team. And there was always one team in our district that was terrible. And like we would never get to play.

because, like, it just, they were so bad. So those would always be kind of the worst games because you just, like, sit there. Because they're like, we can't have you, we can't have you, like, get injured against Orangeville. Oh, you're even, you're calling them out on the, on the podcast. I thought you're going to keep. There's two high schools in Orangeville, so it's fine. Okay. I thought you're going to keep this anonymous, like a Tim Graham column about Sabres captains.

All right. Hey, speaking to the Sabres, Haley, we got one last mailbag, hailbag question here. This comes in from Sammy. on Twitter says, hey, the Nashville Predators look like they're ready to blow this thing up. Do you think there's any chance you could see them trading for Jack Eichael and maybe using a guy like Philip Forsberg as the main piece going back to Buffalo? I mean, I would see this a little bit. Like if the predators are blowing it up, that would indicate like a rebuild of sorts. And I just don't know if you, if you're going to blow it up to rebuild, do you,

just bring in Jack Eichael. I don't know if that's a situation that I could see being plausible. I guess if you get Jack Eichael, you don't have to rebuild. But I think there's just so many question marks on that roster that does Jack Eichael just automatically make the Nashville Predators good? I think they just had a ton of problems. And I don't know, maybe I'm just really bad at trade proposals, but I just don't know if a swap like that would make sense

and just automatically work for both sides. And yeah, like if the question is they're preparing to blow it up, that indicates a rebuild to me. So if they're blowing it up, they're going full-blown like fire sale. And if you fire sale everyone and then bring in Jack Eichel, like you're just, I don't want to,

are you not just the Buffalo Sabres again? Right. Yeah. Like I think if you're going to try to get Eichol out of Buffalo it's got to be for Foresburg plus plus plus like it's you know that's the starting point I just I don't know but Nashville is like there's a handful of teams in the league like Buffalo takes the cake because they're I think they're the most passionate market there are some other markets where Haley like San Jose would be one Nashville heck I think Calgary is one where you just wonder like where is this team going like where are they going to be in 18 months from now and in Nashville San Jose and Calgary are on that list for me just like just like that's this team going. Like where are they going to be in 18 months from now and Nashville San Jose and Calgary are on that list for me just like. the Buffalo Sabres. Okay, but we're going to have to leave it there. Haley, I've got suddenly got a hankering to go find a continental breakfast somewhere. It's a waffle day. Some Danish. Did you just, wait, what did you just say? Did you just say? It's a waffle day.

Okay, but you didn't, you weren't making like a, like a bad pun like it's a waffle day. Like this is waffly bad. No. Okay. Because I thought for a second you were and then, wow, I was going to be like, okay. It's not even a, no. No. Amazing. We'll leave it there. I love leaving on an awkward spot with you, Haley, because that feels like we're right on brand.

Hey, thanks, everybody, for listening to the Athletic Hockey Show. Subscribe to us on your favorite podcast platform. Leave a rating or review. Tell us what you like, and we would really appreciate that. A reminder that annual subscriptions to the Athletic, they're available to you for just $3.99 a month when you visit theathletic.com slash hockey show.

Scott Burnside, Pierre LeBron. They're back at it, two-man advantage edition of the athletic hockey show on Wednesday. I'll drop back into this spot on Thursday. Down Goes Brown, Sean McAden.