The Athletic Hockey Show - Top 10 NHL front office rankings

Episode Date: October 24, 2024

Hailey and Sean welcome Arthur Staple to discuss the top 10 NHL front office rankings, as voted by forty NHL front office executives. A crew of our writers surveyed executives across the league to lay out the NHL’s top 10 front offices with the Dallas Stars, Tampa Bay Lightning and Florida Panthers reaching the podium.Hosts: Hailey Salvian and Sean GentilleWith: Arthur StapleExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Jeff Domet Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic hockey show. Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the athletic hockey show. It's Thursday, so that means it's Haley Salvin and Sean Jintilly here with you. I have a bit of a cold. I'm not quite on the IR because I'm an adult and like a stuff knows isn't enough to get out of work anymore. But Sean is the healthy host of the podcast. You're going to be hearing more from him to Today I've decided. I'm here, but I'll be making Sean do most of the work. What's up, Sean?

Is that true? I was not appraised of the situation beforehand. Cool. I'm glad. More work from me. It's just better for the best place. I'm sure everybody's psyched. People don't get enough of my voice on the athletic hockey show already.

Yeah, that's true. Okay, so for this week, we're going back to the deep dive vibe of the show. Last week, we did more of a let's look at the games that happened. And after a night where all 32 teams were in action on Tuesday, Wednesday night, just had caps, flyers. And as much as I would love to talk about Connor McMichael's two-gole effort after I picked him up on waivers and fantasy hockey, we're not going to do that for 45 minutes today. Instead, one of the biggest stories at The Athletic this week, it's the first time that we've done this after seeing it in baseball and football. It's a great idea. I've always loved writing it. And now we have it in the NHL. It's the front office rankings. A crew of our writers surveyed 40 different executives across the league to lay out the NHL's top 10 front offices. All the execs were basically asked, can you grade these teams, one to five? Everyone got points. It's a great story. There's a fun little infographic in it. That's always my favorite part. It's very interactive. It's great. Um, that story is on the athletic. It came out on Tuesday, I believe. And one of the writers, Arthur Staple is here to break it all down with us today. Welcome to the show, Arthur. I'm so happy to be here, guys. It's nice to see everybody. That's really, wait a second. That's a very funny intro. Coming from, coming from from one person to another who talked like constantly. She was, she was introducing you like, like she didn't like you'd never spoken before. That was a lot of fun.

It's okay. We don't, we don't speak. We don't. We don't speak on it. We don't. We don't. speak on camera that much. Let's put it that way. No. What do you mean? A fellow out of the tri-state area named Arthur Stable. Should I start doing the really lengthy showy bios before bringing people in? Full back of the hockey card. I need the whole thing. What does Arthur do?

That's a simple question. Does he cover the Islanders or the Rangers now? Both. I'm joking. He's our New York writer. I don't know. That makes me weird. I don't like doing that. Arthur, you can tell the folks what you do. Whatever needs to. That's what I do.

All right. So the front office rankings was great. It was awesome to see that in the NHL. I don't know how surprised I was by who was in the top 10. I think maybe some of where people slotted was quite interesting. And I guess what's great about this story is, usually when we see the GM of the year awards go out, right? That is after the second round of the playoffs.

And pretty much every time a GM that wins it is still active in the postseason. So the timing of the story is great because you get, sure, we know that the Florida Panthers won the Stanley Cup. But you get a little bit more removed from that. And people can just kind of decide based on a more full body of work or more time elapsed. And so, um, we can just get right to it. The Dallas stars got the most first place votes. They got the most points by a significant margin, I would say. Two hundred and fifty one points, um, 170 points from first place votes. I'll just run through the top 10 and then we can dive into this with Arthur. I just said Sean was going to be doing all the work and I haven't stopped

talking. All right. So the Dallas stars are number one. Unsurprisingly, I think, We have the Tampa Bay Lightning at number two, Florida Panthers three, the Vegas Golden Knights 4, Boston Bruins 5, Colorado Avalanche 6, New Jersey Devil 7, Carolina Hurricanes 8, New York Rangers 9, and the Detroit Red Wings number 10. Arthur, was there a team in this top 10 that you were like, oh, interesting. Where are they here? Yeah, I mean, I think it was more who finished where was. the most interesting. But yeah, I think once we started, at least for my quarter of it,

once you start surveying people, you get a sense of, you know, it matches up kind of with the eye test, I guess you could say before you start doing the survey that you know that Tampa, because of the run that they've had, I think if we'd done this a year or two earlier, they probably would have finished first, but now that they're kind of moving out of their cup window and arguably Julian Breeze was doing more work than he did when they were winning. You know, I think that that kind of keeps them up there. Florida has come up, obviously, being with the run that they've had the last couple years, being as aggressive as they've been.

But I think Dallas finishing in the top spot may be a surprise to some people based just on the fact they haven't even, you know, they've made one pandemic, they made the bubble final and they've made a couple conference finals. but I think you kind of the quotes that we threw in and me being able to kind of sift through all the quotes when I was writing it, you find two things, which the one obvious one is they don't make a ton of splashy moves. They've got a great core that's been there a long time augmented by some young players and they've had what one top five pick I think in the last decade and that guy is Miro Heiskin and who as I wrote probably the most underrated player in the league. and I mean, people in the league certainly know and fans certainly know, but what he does for them is pretty huge. And then you've got guys like Logan Stankovin and Wyand Jodston and Jason Robertson, none of them, high picks who are all working their way in. Jake Ottinger, a homegrown goalie who's one of the elite guys in the league.

So it makes a lot of sense on that front from the, just from the roster personnel building part. And I think Jim Nill is a guy who's been in the league a long time. he was a player for a long time. He was Kenny Holland's right-hand man for a long time in Detroit. This is a guy who has maybe the most respect of anybody around the league. And I think that's what came through a lot. And I think, you know, it's a relationship business and character matters in these kinds of things. And it's not best friends league, but it is still, as long as you're treating people with respect at all different levels, I think that permeates out. So that's why Dallas ended up in the top spot. Yeah. And the 2016 draft probably didn't.

hurt either. Like when teams are, teams are going through this. I mean, that's one of those things. You hear about it a lot. In a lot of different, uh, a lot of different quadrants, but like Jim Nell got Meryl Hayeskin and Jason Robertson and Jake Ottinger in one fell swoop. And I think that made him, you know, I people, people talk about that draft with like reverence and awe, I think. Because it's like, look at, look at the work that was done like in in one in one in in one in in one scouting group i'm i'm sure that was part of it too but yeah you that was

my first reaction when i saw it too is like we know how well jim no is liked and how how much he's respected and i think that's i think that's a i think that's a pretty good pretty good indicator right there uh just as far as like other surprise is going to go on down to the other end of the list i would say the red wings cracking the top 10 is is probably the biggest surprise just based on what Steve Eiserman's done in his time there, which is not a whole lot. They still haven't made the playoffs. They have better players. They have a lot of good young players coming.

But it's kind of been, you know, I think they had kind of an odd offseason, you know, adding a lot of over 30 guys. It hasn't really panned out for them. You know, if you're taking bets on who's the first coach going to be fired, you would probably put Derek Lalonde in that in that top two or three. But I think this is probably twofold from other executives. putting them up there, you know, people who voted for them. It's a lot of credit for what he did in Tampa, which is build a team up from pretty much

nothing or it kind of take them from a transitional period into the period that they got into even after he left because that was a lot of his work. And the incredible undertaking it was in Detroit for a team that mortgaged their future year after year just to get into the playoffs and keep that playoff streak alive in the 2010s and do nothing with it. And then, you know, the transition from Ken Holland had been there for almost three decades to Eiserman, who's, you know, the greatest, probably the greatest player to ever play there. That's a big ask.

And I think it's taken a little bit longer than people, fans certainly might have thought, but I think other executives maybe see the inner workings of what's going on there and how much it's changed. And certainly the quality of the prospects they have either that are already in the NHL or are coming up. And, you know, maybe in a couple years, this, this 10th place spot will be a little more validated when we do it again. But for now, maybe a bit of a head scratcher. But I think that's probably the reason why.

I wonder if you got pity votes for not winning the lottery. Yeah, maybe, maybe. There were a few quotes along those lines of, they didn't get the first pick when they were supposed to. I'm like, I guess, I guess that everybody feels for them for that on that front. I think it's a little bit, it's a little tough coming out of the Dallas Stars conversation and being like, well, Dallas doesn't really, hasn't really had a top five pick in the last decade. However, they have Jason Robertson and Amir Haskinen obviously was that top five pick third overall. Rope Hince, Jake Ottinger, you know, it's hard to come out of the Dallas Stars conversation and then be like, well, the Red Wings haven't had a top pick. Oh, they only got the fourth pick instead of the first.

In the year that they were terrible, like let's grade them on a curve for all eternity. I don't know. They have been screwed by that. This is axe grinding from me now. I'm tired of hearing about the wings. When I covered the Sends, I would do a lot of the draft lottery stuff with Max Boltman,

who left us on the show, unfortunately. And he would just always, we would always go over like how many picks they had dropped over the years when the team was like truly, truly bad, like deep in the throes of the rebuild and wanting those higher picks. And it seemed almost comically sad for fans how often the Red Wings dropped. But it definitely seems like going through some of the quotes from the other article like this, like the Red Wings getting a second place vote and two third place votes seems really just like Eiserman respect. Eiserman, like, legacy thing. Like, I don't know if anyone's saying I really like how he looks. They're all saying, like, he's got a plan and he's executing it well.

Yeah, it's a slow moving plan and signing Vlad Tarasenko and bringing back Patrick Kane, probably not going to win you votes in this in this survey but uh but i think it it has more to do like you said yeah he's he's got a pretty high standing around the league and again relationships that matter matter more than anything else with a lot of these executives so all about the eyes are planned and in the meantime in the meantime dylan larkin's 28 years old get moving Yeah, I don't know if he's going to even be the guy that's going to be central to what, you know, I think we're talking Lucas Raymond, Simon Edmondson, got to go to the next generation. We'll see. I'm trying, I'm trying not to just don't.

This isn't an hour of me. Let's move on from the Red Wings. Let's move on from the Red Wings. Tampa Bay Lightning finished second, Florida Panthers third. It was pretty close. They both got the same amount of first place votes. It's not surprising that Tampa is still high up, Arthur. I think you did touch on this already,

just the kind of legacy that they have. But I really appreciated the Panthers blur because I truly do think that Bill Zito, he's the GM and president of hockey operations there. It seems like he took that team from, nobody wants to play in Florida to the destination that people want to go to. And it seemed like almost overnight it went from Tampa being the low tax when a cup destination to the Florida Panthers.

And I think a lot of that is what Bill Zito seemed to do. And I think Zito made a lot of like smart moves for players like before it was too late to make the move. If that makes sense. Like he had Oliver Ekman Larson. And, you know, now the Toronto Maple Leafs go out and sign them. But it's like, well, are you not like a year or two too late for that? It seems like Bill Zito makes the good, low-key move early.

Like even finding guys like Gustav Forsling, Cardover Hage. There's Brandon Montour, same thing. You know, they had Brandon Montour when he was at its peak value, not Brandon Montor making millions and millions of dollars in Seattle. So I'm not surprised at all that Florida is here, I wonder if you would have told someone like five, six years ago that the Panthers were going to be the top front office. Someone would be like, what do you mean? Yeah, it was a retirement community back then.

So, you know, and I think what stood out from the comments from our execs was their aggressiveness. And I think you go down the list a little bit to Vegas. Tampa, you know, similar, but their aggressiveness is to try to stay afloat. they're not pushing through. But I think that kind of we're here to win. You know, that was the one quote, I think, from the Tampa one that was from a GM that said, like, winning cups, that's the job description. And so if Tampa's goal is to stay relevant and try to be a contender every year, which is what they do,

then yeah, you're going to upset some people when you let Stephen Stamcoast walk. But what do you do? You go and bring Jake Gensel and a younger guy who is still a top line player who complements what you've got well. You have to be able to have a plan and execute it. And I don't think anybody has planned out their post-dynasty era better than Tampa. It may not work out, but they certainly are targeted and aggressive in what they do. And I think there's a lot of respect for that. And when it comes to Florida, you know, you think about some of the things that could have held them back since Bill Zito took over the Joel Quenville situation where he's got to

scramble to find a new coach. They succeed well enough with Andrew Brunette, but it's not enough for them. That's not the guy that they wanted. They get rid of him. A huge uproar because they'd been so successful they got and get Paul Maurice, and here they are, you know, back-to-back trips to the finals and the reigning champions. You know, the Sergit Birovsky contract could have been a huge albatross for them. Instead, he's turned his game around and, you know, I don't think you can credit the front office for that. But like you said, to be able to find some of those low-cost guys, you have to have a great pro-personnel program. You have to be able to trust your scouts.

And I think Bill has been in the game long enough, first as an agent, then as an executive in Columbus that he understands. You've got to, you know, you've got to succeed as a big team, a spending team by finding those, those, you know, high-risk, low-value plays like Ekman Larson, giving commitment to guys like Forrestling. you know, and, you know, you look at the way that they were constructed through the playoffs last year. You know, they put together a team that was incredibly, incredibly hard to play against for four rounds, even for one round. You know, it's a really, it's a really well-built team and they're, you know, you succeed and you have to take a step back and evaluate. And obviously, they didn't keep Montour. They did keep Sam Reinhart, who's been plugging along. You know, they extended Paul Maurice.

the way that he operates is pretty impressive given some of the circumstances that he had, some of which he created when he was there and some of which kind of predated him. I look at Florida and I just feel, it's felt this way for a couple years. They're the perfect blend of quantitative and qualitative analysis, I think. They're data driven to a point, but then Paul Maurice, like bringing in Paul Maurice, that's a culture move. That's like we want to be hard to play against. We want an identity.

All that stuff that, you know, might be easy for some people to roll their eyes at. Like that that's valued significantly in Florida alongside, you know, the kind of quantitative stuff that allows them to identify, you know, the Gustav Forslings of the world and Adam Bulkfast and guys like that who they take off the scrap heap and, you know, recognize from a data standpoint that they're, you know, that are capable. of helping on that end of things. They take those decisions and they meld them so well with culture-based ones

and Zito's the tip of the spear for that. I thought it was funny too because what was the money quote I feel like in their in their blurb was it Zito's turned it into a destination franchise?

And that's something that we saw in Bill Zito's write up or the quote Bill Zito gave for the press release on Palmer

his contract extension two days ago. He said, he said, he said Paul Maurice has helped turn the Florida Panthers into a destination franchise. Right. So I don't think that's a coincidence that that phrase popped up twice. Like that's because that's what they've done. That's what they're recognized as doing. And I think, you know, Zito and Marie is working together in a very real way.

It's, it's impressive to watch. I think let's not forget that Bill Zito has pulled some rabbits out of hats too. we've talked about this on the show before, but when I was working on the Matthew Kuchuk trade destinations type story, and Sean helped me out with that, I had the general idea of where Matthew Kachukh would be open to going,

and Florida was obviously on that list, and I remember being like, I didn't include that in the story, because it was like, there's no way they have to re-sign Hubert O'Weeger and like Barkov, do Claire. Like, they have no money. There's no way that Florida's going to be able to sign for Matthew Kuch.

And obviously that trade ends up happening. And Bill Zito basically took a situation where he was like, well, I wouldn't be able to sign Huberto and Uyghur this offseason. So I'm going to flip them and sign Matthew Kachuk instead, actually. And I don't know how many, obviously you get the benefit of being the GM for the franchise in Florida, but I don't know how many GMs or teams are going to pull that one out. So that was always the one where I was like, wow, I look so stupid. I should have included the Florida Panthers. And there's not a lot. There's not a lot of teams. that built the tippy top of their core outside of Barkoff through trades.

And that's what Bill Zito did. He traded for Matthew Kuch and he traded for Sam Rinehart. And that's not something you see often. All right. Let's take a quick break. When we come back, I think there's an interesting conversation to be had with the Vegas Golden Knights who come forth very high in terms of executives looking at Vegas.

But I think the perception at least like from fans or the public and even players wouldn't have them quite so high. We'll talk about that when we come back on the athletic hockey show. All right, welcome back. So the Vegas Golden Knights, one general manager says, love them or hate them. They're all about winning. NHL executive seemed to love them because they have won and that cutthroat attitude and, you know, aggressive approach has led them to the ultimate goal.

But I think if you asked fans or players, the cutthroat aggressive stuff, isn't great depending on who you're talking to. So the Golden Knights are quite interesting. I don't know if I was surprised that they were this high because I think, yeah, they're the team that gets it done, right? And that's what NHL executives want to celebrate, I suppose. I don't know, Arthur, what do you think about Vegas?

You know, I think if we were polling agents and players might get a different reaction because of the way that Vegas operates, you know, and I think there's, I think that Love and Haven is not necessarily a grudging respect. I think that there's, you know, there's definitely a perception around them. I think maybe it's even some leftover hard feelings for the way that George McPhee fleeced everybody at the expansion trap seven years ago. Still plenty of executives kicking around from that who maybe not as many as you'd think

because a lot of them got fired probably as a result of the trades they made. I can think of a couple, yes. Yeah, yeah. But I think even the transition. from McFeed to Kelly McCriman, you know, George is still there. So it's, you know, a lot of that flows from Bill Foley. I think he didn't want to buy a team and be patient with it. And he's encouraged the aggressiveness from the ownership suite, which I think we're not going to, we don't need to fawn all over the owners here. But I think another consistency for that top

group is ownership that is willing to spend and is willing to commit to some of these moves. You know, you see Jeff Finnic, who's, you know, selling a piece. piece of the lightning that was announced today. It was widely regarded as a great honor and the consistency from Heisman to Breeze Blah, John Cooper behind the bench. I think, well, that's a separate story, but I think Vegas has been so aggressive with coaches, with players, and it's all in the service of trying to win. It's not to be rude or mean to anybody.

It's because they have one goal in mind and they accomplished it a couple of years ago. it's, you know, it's tough to stay there, especially when you're, you know, there's definitely, you know, you cycle through some guys and maybe you get a bit of a reputation around the league. But I think in general, you know, there's a reason that they're up there. And I think it's not jealousy. It's just, it's just respect. They came in and they came in hot. They've stayed hot. And I think it's worked out pretty well for them.

I wonder how far they would have dropped down if they lost in the 20, 20, 23 cup final instead. Like, if they lose that series in seven games, like, are they 12th? You know what I mean? Like, it's, I always got to remember that results matter. Like, they're important. They did win the cup. But, man, it feels like so much of, so much perception hinged on them,

on them actually getting done. Whereas, like, if it wouldn't have happened, I've been like, all right, March or so gone and this guy's gone and like now send them on down the river they're put them at 14th or whatever yeah no it's it's been uh you know the barbership trade and signing

they've just found you know work going back with stone yeah their moves have worked you know when they they gambled on mark andre flurry to get started uh you know that whole controversy they got through it they they thought robin lena was going to be the guy extenuating circumstances there and then they went a cup with a pretty unsung goalie.

But yeah, I mean, and now they're still back at the top division. They've got Ily Samsonov who, you know, flamed out in Toronto a bit. And I think they just, they trust what they're doing is going to work. You know, it feels intense. So maybe it can't last forever. But yeah, I think I think what they're doing is working. So there's a lot of people in the league. You know, it's funny too.

I'm looking at the full quote list because that's something you guys also published today. Everything that everybody said about every franchise for all intents and purposes. I don't see the salary cap coming up at all. I don't see LTIR coming up at all in anything that anybody said, right? And I think that's interesting. And I think that counts for something is that they're not getting, I know that's something that fans obsess on. it's something media, but obsesses on, it doesn't seem like it's something that came up in these conversations. And they're certainly not getting dock points for it, which I think is interesting.

No, and I'm sure it was pointed out that the top four teams are all no-tax state teams. And they've obviously coincided with them being pretty successful the last few years. But, you know, I don't know if Nashville is going to stay and, you know, be in the mix. They obviously took advantage of that situation this summer to make some big moves, but they still have to be the moves. it pay off. And, you know, I think other executives understand that you work with the limitations or the restrictions or lack of restrictions you have. And I don't, didn't sense to me the people that I pulled that there was any of that kind of like, oh, yeah, obviously they're going to succeed. Like Jim Nill and the stars didn't succeed because they're in Texas. They succeeded because they

run a good program. So I think that's a bit, it's a good talking point. And it makes sense to discuss from a league level, but I don't think that it enters into this particular conversation because good executive is a good executive no matter where he is. Let's jump around just a little bit here because it seems like when you look at how the Vegas Golden Knights handled the expansion draft, one of the teams that was not included in this top 10, they didn't get a single vote in anything, which I did find a little surprising was the Seattle Cracken. How much do you think Vegas doing the expansion draft the way they did. And then Seattle's own draft kind of impacted the way that people look at how Ron Francis initially built that team.

And I know there was like so much criticism from fans specifically of like what the heck. Like how did Vegas get all that? But we didn't. And I know from, Arthur, I'm sure you heard it too. You talked to the executives around the league during the Seattle expansion draft. Everyone was just like, I'm not letting them do that shit again. Like there's no way in hell. I am not getting fired as a result of this.

Yeah. Like price just went up, up, up, like crazy. So for that, I feel for Ron Francis a little bit, but it does seem like he's maybe taken the hit a bit for

not being able to have a juiced up expansion draft. Yeah, I was a little surprised that they got no votes because of that, certainly that scenario where you knew they weren't going to get the same kind of team that Vegas got because they weren't going to. going to trick anybody or, you know, tricking. It sounds like George McPhee put a hex on people, but he just, he just worked the system really well.

You never know. Ron Francis wasn't able to do that. I know, they certainly tried, but, and even within that context, you know, this is year four. They made the playoffs. They won around. They look like they could be headed in the same direction this year, admittedly, in a pretty weak Pacific division.

But, you know, I think that's a pretty decent start to a franchise. And I think they've, you know, building with a lot of focus on analytics and trying to plug guys in that way, you know, I think maybe, you know, they weren't really discussed a whole lot. You know, when you, when you're asking executives for their top five, you're not really probing, hey, why didn't you put these guys in? But yeah, that one was a bit surprising. And I think just from a league-wide standpoint, you know, Lou LaMerello won the Jim Gregory Award back-to-back years and took. 20 and 21 and the Islanders got nothing. So, you know, I think that's maybe a reflection of in the moment the Islanders were a very nice surprise those two years. And Lou pushed all the right buttons. And since they haven't really done a whole lot, so it's kind of an illustration of

how quickly you can fall out of favor among your peers and when they're voting for things like this. Did any of these ballots come in after he had to wave Pierre Engval? Oh, never mind. I was going to throw a lieu of a fourth place there. No, no. I think just having that contract existing probably was enough to keep them off to two ballots. It's just a reminder that the contract exists.

It wasn't good. I also wonder about Seattle, too, like coming out of the off season that they had where what we heard about the way they were building the team really from the start is like cap space, cap space, which is great, you know, and they had a ton of it. And then they went and spent it on Brandon Montor and Chandler Stevenson, which like those are two good players to varying degrees. But, you know, that was their big ticket item is those two guys. And I wonder if they would have gone about it in a little bit of a different way or whatever in the last, in the last few months. I wonder if they wouldn't have snuck on to a couple to a couple ballots at least.

It's an interesting thought. Yeah, those are complimentary players. Those aren't guys you get. Yeah, they're not. They're not guys you want to sign for eight, whatever, seven, eight years and $70 million.

Yeah. And that's the role that they've been thrust into. It's a tough, tough break. So the New York Islanders don't get any votes, but the Rangers and the Devils

are on this list. To kind of round out the New York tri-state area conversation. Rangers are ninth. Chris Dury is the team present in GM. And the New Jersey Devils are seventh with Tomfist Gerald at the top of that organization.

Were you surprised at how that shook out? It seems like this was a Tom Fitzgerald brought in Jacob Markstrom and signed Brett Pesci. Like he's done some good stuff over the last couple of years in terms of trades and signings, whereas a lot of the Rangers kind of work to this point had kind of been done. Is that a fair kind of assessment to look at how these two teams shook out? Obviously, they're both still in the top 10, but the devils end up just a little bit higher. Yeah, I think this was a good, good timing for the devils to do this survey. There was a good

summer after, you know, this kind of summer that they had. It was a good, not just the Markstrom trade to finally solve their biggest issue, but I think bringing in guys like Brett Pesci and Brendan Dylan. Brennan really solidifies an area of need for them, not just better defense in their own zone, but I think a little bit more veteran leadership. They've got guys that are that are really, you know, you've got your Jack Hughes, you've got Luke Hughes, you've got Simon Nemitz, you've got some guys that get a lot of attention on social media and in general in terms of marketing and things like that because they're up and coming, but I don't know that they had a lot of foundation there. So I think, I think Tom Fitzgerald, like another guy who's been in

a league a long time as a player and as an executive, he understood that there was a lot of sizzle and they finally put a little steak with it this summer. So I think they deserve to be there. And as far as the Rangers go, you know, I think maybe people were caught in between because, like you said, Haley, Jeff Gordon did a lot of the foundational work for this group that's there now during that rebuild period. And Chris came in and he said. And he said, he was a lot of the foundation, He's certainly been an aggressive executive and done what he needed to do. And I think the thing that is the most attractive for the Rangers is they've obviously, you know,

been a high level team the last three years since, since Drury took over. But he's managed his cap really well to be able to be aggressive at the trade deadline. And they've been one of the most aggressive teams, all three of his years in charge. So I think that gets him some votes in terms of you're not just going with what you've got and worrying and, you know, saying like, all right, well, we'll sign these guys.

And then we don't have the cap space, but we've got our guys. He's always looking to improve the team around the margins or in important spots. And they've come within a couple games of the finals, two of his three years. So I think maybe they got caught a little bit in between with who do you want to give credit to. But I think they're a program that definitely deserves to be in the top 10 and definitely not just resting on all of the moves that Jeff Gordon made before he got there. Yeah, it seems like they got some points for, for. developing too, which is true. We've seen that in the lineup.

Lafranier's the obvious one. You know, that guy, he's the way he's gotten his trajectory back to the right spot, but they've developed players too. And I wonder if that's, it seems like that's maybe where a jury made up some ground after getting dinged for not being at the helm whenever they, you know, bring in Zabanajad and Panarin and in whatever. Like, there's been some work around the margins that

I can imagine him getting a pretty, pretty healthy amount of credit for. Yeah, I mean, they've got, they've got for a team that's pretty established. You've got guys like Will Cooley, even Matt, even Matt Rempey, who was barely in any, you know, a pro player when he was first drafted. Yeah. Yeah, you can go down the list and see some guys that maybe were drafted under the previous regime, but have certainly turned into pretty good players. Turn ended. Right.

Do we think the Carolina Hurricanes are too low? I think that's, I think that's an interesting, an interesting spot for. them. Yeah, I mean, I think, look, there's the, I'll say this. And again, we'd go back to relationships. Don Waddell is one of the most well-liked and respected guys in the late. He's been doing executive jobs for, you know, for as long as some of us have been alive, not me, maybe one of you guys, but he's been around a long time. Definitely one of us. I don't, I don't know about two. But, but he has, you know, and I think everybody in the league understand, the limitations, I guess, of working in Carolina.

They're not going to spend a ton of money on big front office staff. They're not going to spend a ton of money on, let's say, goaltending, you know, certain areas where maybe they could improve their margins a bit. But it has been built up into a pretty solid program. Rod Brindamore deserves a lot of credit for that. Maybe some of that takes away from your front office rankings. But I think the transition away with Waddell leaving to go to Columbus and Eric Tulski taken over, I don't know that they're going to get the credit maybe that they deserve because Tom Dundon runs a very tight ship there.

I think a lot of the league knows that he is very heavily involved in a lot of their decisions. Tulski is widely regarded as one of the brightest people to ever maybe work in any NHL front office. and I think maybe it's a bit of wait and see right now. But yeah, some of the comments and some of the perceptions around the league, even when you just talk to people in general, not doing the survey, is that it's such a unique spot that they maybe are, it's not a place where people that are taking this survey for us, other executives are going to say like, yeah, that's a great place.

We love that team. I just don't know that they're treating their people the way that other executives. executives want to perceive that they should be. Let's put it that way. It's interesting because it's still super early, so we don't really know if Tolski's first off season and Carolina is going to, you know, be this big, great success. And I know they're only off to a three and two start in Carolina, but when you're just at least watching the team, like Shane Gosses-Barre, Sean Walker, they look like they're going to be solid moves for the price tag, right? I think we went over it. And our preseason stuff, Sean, I think they signed Gossus Barron Walker combined for less than just Brady Shays cap hit in Nashville.

And right now the Preds, they're off to a one in five start. And then William Carrier looks like he was just like created to be a Carolina hurricane. So I'm sure they get dinged for losing Jake Gensel, Brady Shay, Brett Pesci, but it seems like the moves they made and the cost of the moves that they made are going to work out for that team specifically. so maybe people would feel differently. I think the Canes are also a team where I know we are at least starting to be like, okay, are they going to win something? Are they going to get a little bit farther for us? So I do wonder if Eric and just the Canes front office gets dinged for that part of things

of like, okay, you guys have been here for a while. What's the next step? The good thing for them is they now have a general manager in place who doesn't have to like sell tickets and do marketing for for the for the for the arena overall which was a big yeah what else job he was because he was pulling he was pulling double two he was the business he was the business side president as well too which is wild wild yeah i mean i think that i think that's really what it comes down to is it's not just other executives are angry on don's behalf that he didn't wasn't able to make it succeed there you know had the limitations he had i think

It's just they have a very small front office and they run things the way that they want to run things. And it's not terribly appealing to other people on the outside. That's it. Yeah. Okay, let's take a break. When we come back for the final segment, we can quickly look at some of the teams who didn't make the cut. And then we'll let Arthur go back to his job. What was it again?

Whatever you need me to do. Just kidding. TCB. He does everything in New York. That's right. We'll be right back. All right, welcome back. I thought Arthur was wearing a Mets hat, but it's an Expos hat, which, how was I supposed to know that?

Because he's a sports writer from the United States. You know how many people I know who have Expo's hats? I should say it was backwards. I'm not that dumb. Okay. I know that that's not the Mets logo. It was the back of the hat. It looked like orange letters, okay?

I'm also wearing a Guided by Voices T-shirt under here. Yeah. Much more relevant to this show than any basis. Is that like an emo punk band, like sad boy music? Sean, he'll explain it to you later. We'll talk about it off, Mike, yes. Okay, well, that's fine. So we went through most of the top 10,

the Boston Bruins and the Colorado Avalanche were five and six in this. But I want to make sure that we have some time to get into the teams that didn't quite make the top 10. I don't know if there were egregious surprises. Of course, there were some blues fans who didn't understand why the blues were 13. The ducks, you know what, the ducks being a tie for 11th was interesting. You know, there was one quote that said if everything goes according to plan, they're going to be deep at every position. And it seems like Pat Furby got quite a bit of love.

that one was probably surprising to me that the ducks are higher than like the blues in the wild but maybe I just haven't been properly paying enough attention to their rebuild. I mean, they're off to a decent start. I thought they'd be one of the worst teams in the league this year. But I think it's a little bit of the Eiserman shine, you know, because Pat was his AGM for a long time. That's number one and number two.

I think it was the people understanding the the breadth of the undertaking it is to turn that thing around in Anaheim after the Gets Laugh era had ended. They really, it was a really empty program, I think, when Pat got in there. So, you know, they, you know, maybe they're not at the place they're going to be in a couple of years. I mean, Greg Cronin is a, is a, I covered him as an assistant coach for the Islanders. He's one of the world's most interesting people to talk to. I don't know if he's going to be the guy that's going to be there taking them to the promised land, but he's a good guy for them right now, especially with how young they are. And I think a lot of the other executives are just impressed that they've even gotten to this point,

that they have what looks like a pretty deep foundation to build off of. And maybe some of the free agent signings weren't so great, but you do also have to sell some tickets. So, yeah, I mean, I think once I got more than one high vote for them, I was thinking like, oh, okay, you know, one is maybe a bit of an outlier, but a couple, clearly people respect what they've done, even if it doesn't really show up in the standings yet. Well, they've assembled a good group of prospects that outside of maybe Zegris hasn't had a chance to have the shine come off of them yet, right? Like two years from now, if Mason McTavish doesn't pop and Owen Zellweger doesn't pop and or Mitchikov or all these guys who everyone likes to varying degrees right now, the odds that all them pay off, you know, we've seen it. It's just a matter of, a matter of course, for rebuilds.

There's prospect attrition and some guys don't turn into what maybe they expected them to. So if some of those guys, you know, flatline a little bit in a year or two, maybe the, maybe the dialogue around them is a little bit different. but all those guys still, for the most part, are trending up. And I think that's something to, that's something to, you know, to reward if you're doing an exercise like this. I saw on like an anonymous gossip site that they were discussing Trevor Zegris, but the way that they, like, they called him mediocre duck. Like it was supposed to be like some blind item.

And it was like, mediocre duck does blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And like, it was going around on Twitter because everyone was like, that's really sad that that's Trevor Segris. That's, that's where he's at at this point in his career. He needs to level back up for him. Yeah. Okay, the Edmonton Oilers, uh, they have seven points, not surprising. There's been quite a bit of turnover within that front office, right? I think they took the hit for the multiple different folks in the GM chair. over the last several years here. It's Stan Bowman's spot for now

is kind of how it was written in this story. I think one of the, if we're talking about guys getting this kind of bump, right? Like Steve Eiserman, legacy bump, Pat Rebeak, legacy bump. I guess I'm a little curious why Barry Trots or like a Jim Rutherford didn't get those kind of bumps. I mean, I'm saying this.

Jim Rutherford's not the GM of Vancouver. conducts. Sorry, Patrick Alvin. But I think in terms of the legacy guy, Barry Trots, Hall of Fame coach, had a really interesting offseason. Obviously, these votes were collected before they went to an 0-and-5 star. I'm surprised that Barry Trots didn't get more than just three points after signing Stephen Stamcoast and doing what he did in the offseason.

Yeah, I think that one, where the other no-taxed, state teams who have obviously had some success puts them at the top. I think I think the other, some of the executives need to see Nashville, you know, put their, put their product on the ice and do well before, before anointing Barry, the, you know, kind of the next great general manager. They did, they did go out and they were super aggressive. They signed some guys, but, you know, I don't know that it's more than just spending spree. and easy to say that now that they're one in five,

but I think there was a lot more hesitancy on the execs part that we polled to say, like, oh, okay, well, they belong up there with some of the hired teams, even because it's only been a couple years, and, you know, we'll have to wait and see. And frankly, if they're not going to be good this year, and given the age of guys like Stamcoast in March or so, you know, I don't know if Barry's going to make it into the top 10, if they can't, if they're not going to be able to turn it around. I mean, if, if you're trying to, if you're trying to put together your ballot here,

and you look at the Predators Center depth chart and you're like, ahead of the season, you're like, wow, they need Tommy Novak to play, you know, to be a, Colton Sissons was their number one center at the other night, right? Like, like, that was always going to be a roadblock for them. And I can imagine, I can imagine execs looking at that and being like, there's still, there's still a lot of work left. be done. Like, like, we're not sold yet. And that's, that's clearly been, you know, it's early, but it's been born, born out on the ice. Canucks maybe were the biggest kind of down below the top

10, but not no votes in that, in that middle area. They were probably the biggest surprise for me to be that low. Definitely. Even just managing the turmoil, you know, of, are they going to bring, are they going to sign Pedersen, you know, what's going on with Thatcher Demco? It's a good team. They, seem to have selected the right coach for that group. You know, there's guys in leadership roles there that maybe weren't in those kind of roles in other places, guys like thinking a guy like J.T. Miller. So, you know, I think they've managed some of the pitfalls of running that franchise pretty well. And it's not the easiest environment.

I've always kind of felt like fan media standpoint, Vancouver can give Toronto a run for their money if Vancouver was maybe had a more legacy hockey market. It's tough out there. And I feel like they've handled it pretty well. And I will throw in another Canadian team that was maybe the biggest surprise for me was Winnipeg, talking about restrictions, talking about people that don't necessarily want to be there. You know, Kevin Shevoldeuf has been there for a long, long time since they got back to Winnipeg. And, you know, the market is small, the building is small.

They have a lot of things going against them. And in addition to almost making a final a few years ago, kind of out of nowhere. And then ever since then, they've really been able to kept up pretty well with the big teams in the West and the way that they're off this year with Scott R. Neal replacing Rick Bonus. I think they deserve a little bit more love than they've gotten. I think that a lot of that to do with also not a team that makes flashy moves. They're mostly kind of matriaging their own players to say, you know, guys who won out or whether they're on. stay or not, but I think they deserve a little bit more love too in this survey. Yeah. I wonder if one of the risers, if we revisit this at the end of the season or next year,

I'll be curious to see where the Philadelphia Flyers land too. Because I've really appreciated what Danny Breyer, Keith Jones, and honestly, John Tortorella, because we know when they kind of made those changes to the front office structure, you know, Keith Jones was on the athletic hockey show talking. about how they were kind of like a three-pronged attack with them, right? Like, John Tortorella is not in the front office, but he's definitely being consulted on stuff. And I think they're on an interesting track.

And Danny Breyer, even last trade deadline, didn't seem to waver. Like, that team was pretty good. And he wasn't going to start buying regardless. You know, I'll be curious to see where the flyers end up landing one, two years from now after we kind of see some of this through. Yeah, I mean, I think they've, you know, they've made their intentions very clear. I think this start that they're off to this season is a little bit more what they thought last season was going to be.

So I think they need, you know, they're pretty determined to kind of bottom out for a couple of years and acquire some more high picks to go around some of their guys. They took a nice swing and it seems to be working out with Matt Bay-Mitchcove. And, you know, they've really pumped him up maybe a little bit too much for, a torts team where you know he's going to end up playing four minutes sometime in November and everybody will freak out. But yeah, they're very much in sync in that front office. And I don't know that that's been the case there for a long time. So yeah, I agree. I think even if it's still, if they're still kind of wallowing around the lottery in the next couple years, I think if we do this

again in a year or two, they'll get some more votes because I think the consistency and the the direction they're heading in is very, they're very determined to see this through and not kind of give up on it the way that maybe flyer teams in the past have. Yeah. And one point for the Toronto Maple Leafs and like no quotes. Love it.

I think them getting one point is cooler than them getting zero, I think. I like it. Yeah, it's, you know, I think, when we do these surveys, you know, we do a lot of Leafs content. I think everybody in the league knows it,

and that's important to us, but maybe it's a little bit of a backlash to the, like, we're not going to give you any more ammunition for them. So no one wanted to say anything. Very funny. Well, thanks so much for doing this, Arthur. I think there's so much to chew on with this story.

We went into as much as we could without making this a two-hour podcast. So if you guys, who are listening didn't read the story. It is on The Athletic. It came out, what was that, Tuesday? Yeah, on Tuesday with Arthur, Chris Johnson, Mike Russo, and Scott Powers.

It's a great project. I'm glad this is something that we had in the NHL. Thanks, Arthur. Awesome. Thanks, guys. Appreciate it. And then just a final goodbye from me and Sean. The Prospect series is all new. tomorrow on Friday, Corey Promen,

Chris Peters of Flohockey, and Craig Custin's look back on one of the greatest junior hockey tournaments of all time, the 2019 IHF World U18 Championships and discuss the unprecedented amount of first rounders

that participated. Why is Craig on the freaking podcast Prospect series? Anything to sell a book, baby. Wow. I saw, When he came back and did the special edition.

The franchise. Out, out in bookstores everywhere now. And on Anza.com, the franchise. I saw the comments of the episode that Craig did with you and everyone said, that was the longest, you know,

run for cigarettes ever. Like, Dad's back. Podcast Daddy stepped out. He'll be right back. Yeah. But now he's stepping out on us to be with Corey Prom. And you can listen to that on Friday.

Thanks, everyone for listening to this Thursday edition of the show. I also realized in the intro that I said last week we talked about games. Last week we spent an hour talking about the penguins just for them to lose every game ever since. So we won't be doing that ever again. Thanks everyone. We'll see you next week.