The Athletic Hockey Show - Toronto Maple Leafs attempt to delay the inevitable, Dallas and Carolina one step closer to conference final and Craig Button on Connor Bedard and the 2023 Draft

Episode Date: May 10, 2023

Jesse, Russo and guest co-host Joe Smith discuss how the second round has lacked competitiveness. Lopsided games, goalie pulls and a series poised to end in a sweep have dominated round two after a very intense first round. The guys look back on Dallas responding vs Seattle in game four, and Carolina blowing the doors off the Devils, before looking ahead to the Panthers who seem destined to sweep the Leafs, and the Oilers looking to even up their series with Vegas. The guys go rapid fire on Gerard Gallant leaving the New York Rangers, Gabriel Landeskog's cartilage replacement surgery which will see him miss next year, and The Weekend joining a crowded bid for the Ottawa Senators along with rapper Snoop Dogg and actor Ryan Reynolds. Craig Button from TSN joins the round table to provide his analysis on the playoffs so far, the evolution of coaching, the Chicago Blackhawks winning the draft lottery, Connor Bedard's ceiling, and the prospect rich draft class of 2023. Subscribe to The Athletic Hockey Show on YouTube: http://youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowGet a 1-year subscription to The Athletic for just $1 a month when you visit http://theathletic.com/hockeyshowRight now, Nuts.com is offering new customers a free gift with purchase and free shipping on orders of $29 or more at http://Nuts.com/hockey23 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is The Athletic Hockey Show. Right. Welcome back to another Wednesday edition of The Athletic Hockey Show. I'm Jesse Granger here in Edmonton for the first round series between Vegas and the Oilers. I'm filling in for Rob Pizzo, who's out today. And I'm joined by, as always, Mike Rousseau in Minnesota. How you doing, Mike? Very good.

How are you? Nice to see my colleague, Joe Smith again. We don't see enough with each other. Yeah. Yes. You're so far away now. Right. you're also in Minnesota, right Joe?

I am, I am. Yeah, just a different part. But yeah, we did a podcast yesterday, so we were, yeah, going back and forth to Bill Guerin. But yeah, it's a little further away. He's out in the suburbs. So it's a little different, not quite the city. Joe realized, Jesse, Joe moved to Minnesota so he could have a long off season.

And then he was like, why did I up my route my life when the lightning lost one day later? He could have just stayed in Tampa and had the long off season anyway. But I would miss the beautiful Minnesota summers, though. I would have missed out on that. And the Minnesota winter that you got to go through. Absolutely. When you're an apartment, you don't have to worry about shoveling and stuff.

So bring on all the snow. It doesn't bother me at all. Right. So thanks for joining us again, Joe. We're going to talk about some of these games. And I've got to say, after our first round, we were very spoiled. There was a lot of close games, a lot of overtime games. And the series are close.

at the series scores, but the game scores have not been so close, right, Mike? Yeah, it's driving me crazy because I, I am one of those people that the second, the wild end, I actually continue to watch hockey. You know, some writers go on on vacay. I'm watching every single game. And I honestly don't think I've missed a game. And I just cannot believe how uncompetitive the games have been in this round. It's crazy.

I'm looking at these scores right now in the Carolina Jersey series. Carolina wins 5-1-6-1, then Jersey wins 8-4, and Carolina wins 6-1. Cracken game one of the Dallas series obviously went to overtime. Then a 4-2 game, Dallas eeked that one out, but then 7-2-6-3. And then, of course, your series there, Edmonton Vegas, 6-4-5-1-5-1. The Panthers Leifes have been competitive, but as you said, it's a 3-0 deficit. And I really don't understand why that is. I've always said that the first round in the NHL playoffs are always the most competitive.

It's probably the closest that teams are around. They're all gung-ho to play. They're coming ready to compete. And for some bizarre reason, this round has been anything but that. We've seen goalie pulls left and right. And just every game, lopsided, every game one-sided. And I do think it's just not been a fun series, fun round at all. And, you know, I think it's putting a bit of a black eye.

on the playoffs as a whole. I'm kind of bummed about it too because I love watching double overtime, triple overtime game, especially when I'm not covering the game, when I'm not on deadline or worrying about hitting the U-desk at 2 a.m. or something like that. So I love the double triple overtime. And I don't know if maybe there's maybe some emotional letdown after a first round where that's such a biggest hype and the most, like for the Leafs, for example, they beat the, they slayed the dragon, beat the lightning and finally get the second round and how to get

maybe it's a different element there and see how Cracken went in a playoff series. And I don't know. It's just weird because I think these teams are more evenly matched than what the scores have indicated. And I don't know if it's a goal tending issue sometimes or maybe some backups are playing or whatnot. But it definitely seemed like these teams are a little more even than the scores have shown. Yeah, I mean, well, when Vasilevsky, Hellebuck, Olmark, Shisterkin, Serochin, every star goalie in the league all gets eliminated in the first round. You're going to get some eight four games in the second round, I guess.

And the other fact that these coaches are, and we'll get to it, but these coaches are like jerking their best goalies around, not taking them out of games, putting them back into games. That probably isn't helping them either. I think our one saving grace is like I mentioned, other than the Florida Tampa series, I mean, sorry, other than the Florida Toronto series, they are all pretty close in terms of the games won,

even though the games themselves haven't been close. So maybe we'll get some good game five, six, sevens out of these series, maybe where I'm holding out hope. We're going to get to each one of these series individually here in a second. But I do want to mention we're going to have Craig Button on, TSN Scouting Director, expert on just about everything you could possibly imagine with hockey. He's great. So we're going to have him on in the second segment.

But for now, let's start off with that Dallas-Seattle game last night. Michael, you mentioned it wasn't close. These games have ping-ponged back and forth in terms of who's blowing out who. but the actual games, I mean, it's been a close series in terms of who's winning the games. So what do you think so far in this series through for Dallas and Seattle? Yeah, I mean, I still think Dallas wins the series. I thought it was a great response yesterday. You know, I know that a lot of people in Seattle are complaining about the goalie interference call,

which I actually thought the refs got it right. I actually thought the refs got it right. You know, and we could talk a little bit more in depth about. that. But I actually, I mean, if you want to talk about it now, because Jesse, I know this one, this one's on, like this one. Yeah, this, I felt that on the initial bump that Gru Bauer sold it and pulled himself almost intentionally out of position. And then when he got back, he's pushed out a position, can't play his, his position in large part because Susie hits Ben. I know that Ben a lot of times tries to make everything look accidental, you know, on purpose accidental type thing.

But I actually felt like he's out of his crease if it was the first one, maybe, but I thought that he sold it a bit. But back to the original. I mean, Seattle just didn't have it last night. They made it interesting at the end, but, you know, 10 shots drew what, 40 minutes or so. You know, Dallas put the, it wasn't even that they defended well. It felt like they had the puck all game long and we're in the offensive zone. But clearly you didn't agree with my assessment of the referees on that one? I'm having a hard time keeping my headphones in because the steam that's trying to come out of my ears. Oh my gosh. I am, I literally tweeted last night, shut the NHL down if this isn't goal interference. Why are we even playing this sport? I mean, I guess if you want to

just make it legal to tackle goalies so that you can score a goal, go for it, because to me, that's basically what happened. I don't think that Gruvauer sold it. I think he was pushed out of his crease. I think people misunderstand. Like, I think people, sometimes people don't realize how easy it is to push someone two feet on ice. Yeah. Like he, like he, he was

pushed out of the crease. And then I saw a lot of people defending it by saying, well, it's out of the crease, the contact. Well, the second bit of contact was after he had already pushed him out of. So he pushes him out of the crease. And then people are like, well, he had time to reset. Okay, but he's three feet out of his crease. He's no longer on his angle. That's another thing. I think people

don't realize how hard it is to stay on your angle. And some guy pushes you three feet out of your crease. It's not as simple as just, okay, I've got a half a second. Let me just get back on angle. He tried to get back on angle. He still wasn't in position. Then Ben hits him again. He brushes past him again as the shots coming.

And then they're like, well, it's out of the crease. Well, yeah, because that's where he pushed him. I don't understand. If that's not going to finish, why are we playing the sport? You know me. I'm always defending the goalies. and I'm always going to take your side. No, no, I like your perspective.

You've actually, yeah, I like your perspective. You play that position, so you would know much better than me. I just, I just thought what, yeah, but I mean, I, this is just what I saw, like, watching it live and some of the replays, but, but I could see your, your, your point of view. I will say that I've seen so many, uh, really questionable goalie interference plays, uh, usually on those type of plays when they're out of the crease in. And it has been inconsistent in the past.

So just by virtue of him being out of the crease based on some of the precedents that I've seen, not necessarily this past season in Minnesota, but last year and the year before that with just, I mean, some very bizarre overturns. I was completely convinced that they were going to allow that gold to count. And you're right. I'm going to go off the goalie script here, my observations. But, you know, the wild say that they have, you know, great versus. their mentality, but I watched Seattle, and that is

absolutely great. They're a relentless team when they're on it. Like, they're just, Gianni Gord's epitome of that team. We saw that in game three. But what I also struck me is even if you appreciate a guy more when you see him every day, Merrill Heiskenen, especially in the Wild Series, and

what a difference a game makes when you have that guy back in your lineup, right? And I kind of almost feel bad to him on my Norris trophy ballot looking back on it. But he just such a difference maker. We saw what he did with Capri Sop and then round one against the wild. And just having that stabilizing number one defenseman, like Bruce and I were talking,

it's hard to find a cup team that hasn't had that legit number one guy in your back end. And I think he's the reason why, a good reason why that they might be able to pull the series out as having a guy like that, as long as he's healthy and can be at close to 100% or effective. Yeah, I agree. He was awesome. And, man, like, I look back on it too. And it's like, yeah, I didn't have him on my Norris ballot. And he's awesome.

but also like I don't know who I would take off. Has there ever been a time where there's this many elite defensemen in the NHL? Like it is incredible competition to be on the Norris ballot at this point. Yeah, this year the Norris was tough. It was very tough. And I think I went, I had a tough time too. And I'm almost positive. I did not put Heiskenen on the ballot, which I know will infuriate Dallas fans who

are still mad that I have them on my Calder ballot years ago. He is an amazing defenseman. If we could have included the first round in our Norris. and watching him up close and personal the way that I did, I probably would have. For him to come back yesterday, I mean, I don't know. I can't wait actually after the playoffs to find out exactly what his injury was, if he broke his cheekbone or what the injury was. But because I don't think that was just a cut.

That was a kid that looked in dire straits on the ice. That thing swelled up right away. Unbelievable gash. And for him to wear the full face bubble yesterday and play as well as he did. But that team is just deep. I mean, you know, when you have guys like Dolmi and Marchman on your, your third line and Fox on your fourth line. You know, Glenn Denning, one of the best faceoff guys that we've seen in years,

you know, four years on your fourth line. They are really good. And then you have a couple of young defensemen that are playing really well for them. Souter continues to have a great playoffs as well. They, and they got the goalie that absolutely responded yesterday. It wasn't tested a lot. But, hey, look, that could have rattled you, the way that he, you know, was his worst game of his national hockey league career in game three.

and for him to respond the way they did, it was, you know, as, as Saad tweeted the other day, it's not a must win, but they must win. And now they go back home to two, two, get home ice again. I like the stars to win the series. Yeah, I agree. The stars look good. But I also like the Avalanche to win the first series. So, I mean, the Cracken have a way to, yeah. I mean, they, you know, I mean, they just have a way to just demoralize you. They do, they do. The other series last night, uh, blowout, obviously. see the hurricane 6-1 over the devils.

To me, that game was absolutely insane because the first period, I thought the devils looked awesome. I mean, they're whipping the puck around. They're flying through the neutral zone. They were up 1-0 late in the first, and I thought they could have been up two or three to nothing. And then Carolina gets that late goal at the end of the period

to go into the intermission 1-1, and it was all hurricanes after that. What do you think flipped and what are you seen in this series, Michael? Well, I agree with you. I think Freddie made some unbelievable saves in the first period. and again another response from a pulled goalie, right? And when Peshi turned that puck over in the first, what, minute or two of the game for the, for the goal by Jack Hughes, deflected off him, shot by Timu Meyer, I thought this is going to be, wow.

You know, suddenly you look back and I remember I tweeted the other day, well, apparently the Tara Vinen, Svetnikov and Petruetti, you know, injuries weren't going to be the thing that would unravel the hurricane. So then you start to think, well, maybe it did. you know, that New Jersey was going to be able to pull this out. I'm just so impressed by this Carolina team and their resiliency in the midst of these injuries. It says everything about a guy that Joe Smith knows well and Rod Brindamore and what type of coach he is. But you look at the depth that they have put together, the guys they're putting in the lineup, you know, the Jack Drury's have played great. And, you know, even Pull the RV.

I'm watching him the other day. And that looked like an actual NHL player, which I could tell you, because I was there when they acquired him, I didn't get the impression that other than Don Waddell, there was a lot of people, other people around that were convinced that he was going to be a good NHL player or even needed by them. And I just think that they are a real formidable Cup contender right now. I think you're right. I think they personify the identity of their head coach and Brindamore. And more than any stars or individual talent, they play the team game as well as any team. in the conference especially.

We can make up for the loss of a star player when you play your system so well. They're a relentless in the forecheck. They're just so, they just wear you down. So I'm just been impressed with their depth up there. And I can't figure out the Jersey Devils out. You know, they came in the first couple of games in the first round. You didn't know they didn't even belong there. They were scared.

And then they looked at veteran experience team when they came back and beat the Rangers and eventually led to Drag Goulon's firing there. This team is kind of hard to figure out. Are they that steel young team that can kind of figure it out? Or they, you know, sometimes they're having. out of water. It looked like that against the experienced team. So I'm sure they'll ever have a response next game, though. And Jesse, I think that has a lot to do with just as we talked about a couple podcasts ago, a very young team. You know, they obviously, you know, overcame two huge

blowout home losses in round one. And they have the talent. But eventually, you know, there's the, look, Carolina, while they haven't gone on huge runs with this team, they have, there's a lot of veterans there with a Stanley Cup champion coach who Joe Smith gave a couple five-star ratings for Uber when he was in Raleigh doing that feature a couple months ago.

Excellent. Yeah, excellent driver, Joe Smith says. Yeah, I mean, they're so Jekyll and Hyde the Devils. They look so, like, when they're good, they look so good that they convinced you that like, wow, this team's going to win this

series. And then when they're bad, they're so bad. And I think I mentioned it earlier the coaches kind of pulling the goalies and changing them out and I think the Jack and Hyde nature of this team has led to them messing with the goalies more than they should.

I think Akira Schmidt came in and showed that he's clearly the best goalie on this team. He showed he was the best goalie on this team in the regular season. It was a limited sample size but he was their best goalie. I understood why they put Vanichek in to start the playoffs. It's the playoffs. We've got a veteran guy.

Schmidt is young. He's not all that tested. I understood it. But once you play them both and then you put Schmidt into the playoffs and he once again shows he's clearly the better goalie, I don't get going back to Vanichick to try to, I don't know if it's to try to spark the team because you certainly aren't going to get better goaltending out of him. Schmidt, how many times does he have to show you that he's the better guy? I just, I think that that was a mistake by Rough. As good as he's been this year, he's made a lot of great moves.

I don't like pulling your best goalie out of the net just because the team in front of him had a bad game. Yeah, I agree with you. I was surprised that they went back with them. And it kind of gets back to what we were talking about right at the top of the show here. I mean, there's a lot of teams relying on some pretty mediocre goalies right now. And it's amazing that some of these goalies hit round two. But I think we're starting to see the true colors of some of them. And in New Jersey, Schmid was the best.

better goalie during the regular season. And for them to not come back to it. I just think at this point, and Joe and I have talked about this in Minnesota because the wild still in at least the opinions of Joe and I made a real big mistake going to flower in game two, the first round. It just seems, as you said, too, Jesse, just jerking around these goalies. Just like you got to pick one and go with them unless it's an obvious one. I think in this case, I should have probably gone back to Schmidt.

I'm sure they're second guessing that right now in Jersey. Yeah. There's a lot of inexperienced goalies. one of the guys who's left in this that's very experienced, Sergei Babrovsky has taken a hold of that net in Florida and is up 3-0 on the Maple Leafs. They wanted Florida. Leaves fans did at least.

And it looks like they're kind of regretted that at this point. Is there any, we'll start with you, Joe. Is there any chance the Leafs are coming back? Because I ran into a Leafs fan here in Edmonton yesterday. And I was joking around with him. And he's like, yeah, it's pretty much over. And I'm like, well, think of it this way. if the Leafs were up 3-0,

you would be sitting here saying, we're one bad moment away from blowing this whole thing. So you just need the opposite to happen to you, right? Like, is there any chance the Leafs are getting back in this series? I just don't see it. Like, I mean, I also didn't see them winning that many games in a row against Tampa, including three games in Tampa and, like, overtime games. So, like, I think they're showing more resilience in this year than a year's past.

But they've gotten nothing from their top guys, which is totally surprising considering how they did in the first round series. You know, Zavaros is the biggest goal in Toronto in 15 years, and Matthews is all over the place, scoring big deflections. And I just don't, it's less about the leaves more about what you're seeing from Florida. And that's really impressed me.

I know Bobrovsky has been really, really good, but he hasn't stolen every game. I think that's kind of a bad narrative that he's stole every game. Like, I think Panthers are frustrating them with their forecheck and their physicality and maybe, you know, quasi dirty stuff, whatever you want to call it, but they're playing with a lot of confidence right.

now. They just beat the best team, regular season team in NHL history and Boston three straight times, going down by a goal with a minute left. They have a lot of mojo, right? So I just think it's three and nothing series leads have been what, um, beaten what three or four times in NHL history. There's reason for that, you know, it's just, this is not the 2012 Los Angeles Kings. They had a cup under their belt, you know, or whatever that to do it. You know, it's just a whole different group. I, I, even if it's a three nothing series, I watch every game. I'm just that riveted in terms of like, either what happens in Toronto or just the Panthers themselves.

I just, I'm a riveted by this series. Yeah, I mean, it's definitely been the best series, and coincidentally, it's 3-0. Pobrovsky, I mean, what a,

what a, for him to revitalize himself here and play as well as he has, it's been outstanding to watch. I cannot believe the Leafs are going into a do-or-die game with a rookie in that when they acquired Matt Murray. I mean, it was just a ridiculous acquisition I thought at the time. And,

and now, I mean, I think it says everything that he's not going to start. It looks like he's not starting, their most important game of the season. But the, what they've done to Matthews, Marner, Tavaris, and Nylander this series is quite frankly remarkable. The pressure that is now on these four is just insane to me. But back to Florida. I mean, this is not your prototypical eighth seed. We've talked about this before. I mean, you know, obviously huge upset against the Boston Bruins. But again,

this was the President's trophy winner last year. And suddenly they have a goaltender that is back to being Bob. And you look at their team now and you add Matthew Kachuk to it. And that is a really good team. And then you acquire guys like Montor for a third round pick. And, you know, I mean, Gustav Forsling is a heck of a defenseman. Such an underrated defenseman. And you can see why Toronto is having its problems right now.

And I got to think this is going to be sweet, sweet justice for Paul Maurice if you can get past his old leafs. Yep, it should be fun to see. All right. And lastly, obviously the series that I'm up here in Edmonton covering, I'll start off with a little bit of my thoughts on it, and then we'll get you guys' thoughts, the Oilers and Golden Knights. And I really got to say this series,

every time I think I know what's going to happen, the opposite happens. I mean, we look at game one, the Golden Knights really controlled the game, and Drysidal got his four goals. But it was Vegas's game, basically, outside of just those fleeting moments where he was able to use his brilliant.

to score. And then Edmonton comes back with a game two that was completely dominant. It feels like the Edmonton Oilers had figured out the defense and they were, they were scoring on the power play. They were scoring a five on five. Coming up to Edmonton to a hostile environment and the Golden Knights completely shut them down. I am continued to be amazed by the way this team defends. Alex Petrangelo on the back end is a huge part of it. Alec Martinez, Stanley Cup experience, he's blocking shots, he's always in the right position. And they are just so strong top to bottom. The way they've defended this Oilers team is impressive.

The way they stayed out of the box in game three is obviously the biggest thing because this Oilers' power play is like Bruce Cassidy was laughing about dry sidles, how many goals he's got. I can't stop laughing at this powerplay. It's unbelievable. I've never seen anything like it in my entire life where it, even in the ones that you kill, It's like you barely escaped it. They're scoring at 60% or something like that in the playoffs. And it feels like it should be higher when you watch the power play.

You're like, wow, teams stop this four out of ten times. I don't know how they do it. To me, to me, that's the story of this series, is can Vegas stay out of the box? If they can, I think they're better at five on five, but if they can't. And they only need a couple opportunities. That's what the Oilers need to win is to just get onto that power play. What have you guys seen? Exactly that.

You know, I mean, frankly, you know, game one, even strength, if you just kept them off the powerplay, you know, Vegas obviously did that quality, but even strength, they were the better team. Game two, you just felt like that power play was going to score 100% of the time. And then game three, they stayed out of the box. So it's, you know, sometimes you can't help it, but it's incumbent on them to keep, you know, playing on their toes and with the puck so they don't take any penalties. And then you got to take advantage of your own power play, you know, I mean, I'm going to like, you know, everything was equal in that game three. And then Evander Kane just took a ridiculous penalty at the end of regulation. And it just changed the whole tenor of that game really in the second and third period.

And then even those times where Edmonton seemed to be gaining traction, they did a really quality job of escaping that and then quick strike scoring. So, you know, Vegas, it was a great, great response. I love their team. You know, and frankly, I remember I tweeted at the time when all these Eastern teams were just making trade after trade after trade, reminding people that there's only one cup, and it might come from the West, and why not be Edmonton or Vegas right now? You know, these other teams spent unbelievable assets, and then Vegas goes out and

adds a guy like Barbashev and look at the impact he's having. It's a lot of fun, too, seeing a guy like I go in his first playoff, right? It's hard to believe it is making the heck of a play. The last game, D.P. March or so for a goal. Like you see these, you want to see the big-time players in the, the best games were in the latest in the playoffs. I think everybody would love to see a kind of McDavid in a cup final. I think it's good for the league,

everything else like that. And I call, too, it would be awesome for the league. But some of my favorite stories are kind of like the under the radar ones. And I remember Jonathan Marshall, so watching him score in these playoffs, I'm like, I covered him in Tampa.

We went through waivers and him, his wife were living with their baby in a Marriott hotel down the street from the hotel and kind of fighting to stay his way in the league. And here he is, like, obviously a huge contract, a big part of what they're doing in Vegas. But that's kind of funny how hockey

works, right? You know, Carter Verhege the same way. You know, he's on the scrap heap. It wasn't qualified offer by Tampa and all of a sudden he's, you know, 11, 11 playoff goals, you know, like it's just incredible to see, you know, that's why I love the sport so much. It's all the stories to come out of it. Definitely, definitely. Awesome, guys. Well, that covers every series. And up next, we've got Craig Button. He's always awesome. He's going to be awesome again. So don't go anywhere. Craig Button up next.

All right. And we are joined by TSN's. director of scouting, expert on NHL draft prospects, the NHL draft, and basically everything hockey. Craig Button, thanks for coming on. Geez, Jesse, you're too kind, you know. I always say the beautiful thing about hockey and, you know, so many people are invested. You know, Joe, I just heard you talking about how you're watching every game. And, you know, what I think really keeps all of us sharp is knowing that other people are sharp. And so, you know, you're going, you're watching, you know, and it's not just watching and being sharp,

it's knowledge and a level of information that comes out that makes it makes it really, really good for, for not only the people watching, but the people reading, the people listening. So to me, there's just this great, great depth and breath of quality hockey knowledge that comes out. I'm just happy to be part of it. I couldn't agree more. I've had the pleasure of covering Bruce Cassidy in Vegas this year. And I, every press conference, Bruce Cassidy holds, I leave a smarter hockey fan, hockey writer than I was before it.

It's such a pleasure listening to him. And I totally agree, just all of us trying to soak up as much knowledge as we can. It's one of the things that really bite me about Daryl's better in Calgary. Not really bug me, but like, you know what? You have people that are asking questions. and like some questions are always going to be better than other questions, but his disdain for just about everybody that asked the question and his disrespect, you know, quite frankly, you know, I abhorred it.

And, you know, if that's the way we're going to sell our league, then good riddits to Darryl Sutter. And he's a good coach, but that's no way to be treating people. Yeah. And I mean, Craig, like I think that some coaches, not all, some, um like forget that we're just the conduit to the fan you know like we're asking questions so you could you're the people that are paying money to come into your arena that they know that they know as much as possible obviously things are held back of what's going on that things are explained and i think

it's the same way with gms that just don't talk to the media i mean there's like five or six gms right now in those league that i mean they could fire a coach and we'll not talk to the media um and i I just don't get that. You know, there is, we are, we're not there to be an annoyance. We're there to be a functional conduit to your stakeholders. Mike, I know when I was a GM and I just really felt, I mean, the morning skate practice is going and just spending time, just talking, milling about, I called it, you know, like you hear and it gives everybody a chance to talk.

And it also gives people, hey, you know, I was thinking this. Then you can have a longer discussion than just a, a, a, Q&A. And it's something that's been lost, just that gathering, that gathering, that gathering of just talking. But I mean, how many people give away secrets, this idea that like, you know, regarding gold brick and Fort Knox, it's ridiculous. Like, it really is. And you're right, Mike, there has to be a certain measure of things that you don't want to share that we all respect, right? But on every single thing, like, you know, line combinations and, you know, who's the starting goal he is. Like, I mean, like, give me a break. Like, I mean, what you're doing is, is you're

preparing your own team. And like, if you don't think the other team isn't prepared for just about every scenario, you're like, it's almost an insult to, to the intelligence of everybody. But, you know, I guess we can't change everything. We'll just have to accept certain things as they are and celebrate those that, like Bruce Cassidy, that are so open, John Cooper, Joe, who you spent a lot of time around, like, you know, we're just so open and forthcoming. And those are just a couple that I named. There's so many that are just terrific. Yeah.

I'll never forget, like, my first start of my career is at University of Michigan. And this is when I fell in love with, you know, being a sports writer, being a journalist, being a beat writer, covering the Michigan hockey team. And Red Barringson was a head coach at that time. And he ran it like an NHL program, basically. We were just student journalists walking from our forms, from classes to the practice. If we came to practice, though, he pulled us up at the lounge, you know, maybe the Ann Arbor News reporter and give us as much time as we wanted,

like half hour, 35 minutes on the record, off the record. It's like a history of lesson of hockey from what he went through in his career. And so you're like, if you invest your time and you go to watch, practice and you pay attention, he's like, I'll give you all the time in the world. And like for a guy of that stature, doesn't happen everywhere. It doesn't happen in every single programmer in an HL team. I don't expect the coaches to give us a half hour every day.

But it really, I learned so much about the game and I appreciate more about the game learning because I became a better reporter by knowing more. And he was just, I was grateful for that that kind of started my career to learn that people out there that do that, that really helped the next wave of people to go on. Well, you know, Pat Quinn, who is the coach in Toronto. And, you know, obviously there's more reporters and everything. He stood up there and not only did he answer the questions, not only did he go in depth and offer like, you know, thoughts and, you know, give some insight.

He never had somebody saying last question. Pat decided when it was last question. And sometimes that was 35 minutes, sometimes it was 15. But Pat stood there and always gave, you know, the respect to the media. And I think, Joe, just your comment about, you know, if you're there doing the work, then he's going to help you, you know, deliver the news so that the people that follow back to Mike's comment, right, the people that pay, the people that are passionate and following have as much good information to enjoy it even more.

at a deeper level. That's what it's about. And that's why a lot of times when I do podcasts, Craig, I'll actually sit there and ask for questions from fans because sometimes they have the better questions than some of us reporters. Craig,

if you don't mind, let's switch gears because I know we want to talk to you about the playoffs as well. But let's talk about the draft lottery. It seems like it's been 17 years of hype for Connor Bador. And, you know, it's funny because I was telling somebody this the other day.

Like, maybe I'm just like getting old, which is true. Anyway, but I don't remember this much hype when Connor McDavid was was entering his draft. And this has been maybe it has to do with the fact that there were so many teams that it felt like we're we're trying to lose this season. I've never seen so many teams that were sort of a free space on the bingo card to try to have a chance to get Connor Bedard.

So it just felt like months and months and months and months of talking. But now we have an answer. We know he's going to the Chicago Blackhawks barring, you know, a trade where somebody offers McDavid and dries idle for the pick. you know what's your thoughts on one how hyped he was and whether he's going to translate to the national hockey league in Chicago getting that right You know, one of the things I'll say about the hype, too, and I think the pandemic had a lot to do with greater interest because, you know, now, you know, you're living your life through video watching games. And I think that, you know, to be able to consume and now you're hearing about Conradt, you know, you don't have as many other things occupying your time. So if you're interested in prospects, you're interested in watching and hearing about the next, you know, generational player, I think that that also lended some stuff. I also think, too, Mike, you know, You're right. You know, Connor McDavid came in.

I don't think there was the same interest in prospects to the level we see it today. You know, we have a lot of, a lot of people that are in the public space watching prospects, putting out lists, doing the work. They're doing the work. And they're, and, you know, I always chuckle and I try to remind people, no list is the same. So you can think that my list, I'm an idiot, but like, you can look at any list and pick out anything and say, you know, this person or that person. The NHL teams, there's 32 teams and all the lists are different. So it just comes down to different opinions. And, you know, one of the things that I think has been great is the public interest and the people that are taking the time and putting in the effort

to watch the players and to assess the players, write about the players, then, you know, present them to this. So I think there's a greater interest than I think the pandemic, you know, created more of an opportunity to really dial in and watch him, maybe whereas in the past, you might not have been able to do that as much or really had an inclination to do it as much. When it comes to Connor Bedard and John Paddock told me this last spring,

he said, he's been in the spotlight since he was 12 years old, and there's no spotlight that's been too bright for him. And so when you ask me, and there's always going to be that question, does it translate to the NHL? Because ultimately that's what it's about. and watching Connor play, you know, from the time he went into junior hockey, to international hockey at the U-18, to the U-20,

he not only has excelled, he's been better than everybody. Like, everybody. Like, and playing at times players five years older than them, sometimes four years old of them, sometimes three years old of them. And when you're best on best tournaments, and you're not just holding your own, but you are clear in a way the best player, I think it translates.

You know, obviously you need the skills and you know, he's got tremendous skills. I've said this a number of times since the world junior. I think that his junior year is the best junior year at this age for a player entering in the draft or at this age since Wayne Gretzky in 1977, 78. And he's not Gretzky. I'm not to suggest he's Gretzky. And of course, the question is, what about McDavid? What about Crosby?

What about Lemieux? great seasons in the respect of junior leagues. But the separator for me is, Connor McDavid went to the World Junior Tournament and owned it. He owned it. He owned it like very few players have ever owned the World Junior Tournament at 17 years of age. The last player to do that was Gretzky at the 1978 World Junior Tournament.

And he was 16. He had just, he was just about to turn 17 when, so he was six months younger than Connor when he did it. But that's the kind of space that Connor found himself in this year. And one of the things that I always watch for players is how do they deal with teams trying to stop them? Like, you know, you stop assessing the skating, the shot, the puck handling, everything that goes with it. Now you start assessing what I call problem solving. And he problem solves as good as any player I've seen in a lot.

He problem solves at the level of generational player. And he problem solves in real time. That's what I'm, I mean, that goal he scored against Slovakia in the quarter final. He knew he was out there for a long time. And he was thinking, I got to get off the ice. But when the puck turned over, right away, he said, wait a second, they've been out here as long as I've been out here. So he knew that there was an opportunity to take advantage.

I mean, that's problem solving in real time where you can switch. I got to get up. Wait a second. No, the puck came to me. I can do this. And of course, he did. What are your thoughts on Chicago getting the honors to pick him? Yeah, I mean, I mean, Kyle Davidson made a, made a, he was very decisive in what he was going to do.

I mean, he said, we're going to complete, read a new direction, a rebuilt, and we are going to burn it down. And, you know, maybe I shouldn't use that term burn it down, but, but he was demolishing it. He wasn't, he wasn't remodeling. He was demolition full. on in there. And you think about Chicago, going into Pittsburgh on the Wednesday end of the season and ending the Pittsburgh Penguins playoff hopes, helping Florida get into the playoffs, you know, coincidentally. And, you know, and then you're thinking, why are they winning? And, you know, that's always the question. Why is Columbus winning? Why is this team winning? Well, you know,

the lottery is weighted a certain way. And, you know, we know that there's a possibility for other teams to win. And certainly Chicago did that. But he's not surrounded by the depth of that he would have been surrounded with if he went to Anaheim or he went to Columbus. So I think it's going to be a little bit of a longer road for that team to rise up and be a playoff contender. But when you have a player, just like Crosby, just like McDavid, just like Lemieux, when those players enter your sphere, you now become, you can now talk about being Stanley Cup contenders in the future, whatever that future is.

I mean, you can legitimately start talking about that. And I think it's a reasonable expectation. Craig, just real quick, Joe, I mean, isn't it amazing? Do you remember when they beat Pittsburgh, like the fans in Chicago, maybe you don't pay attention to Twitter as I, as I do? Oh, I do. Just freaking out that they, that freaking out that they won that game. And if you think about it, that pushed them over the top of Columbus in terms, I think

regulation wins. And it put them in a tie-in points, if I remember, but put them one. one point below them. So they finished basically 29th or 30th and Columbus 31st. And you think about how that fate, you know, not only did they knock Pittsburgh out, get Florida in that might knock out Toronto, but they get Conor Mardardard because it's crazy. It really is, right? You think about all these all these machinations that occur.

And then, you know, everybody's trying to, okay, they know if the dards in there, how do we position ourselves to be competitive but not be too good and everything that goes the way that they win, and yet it's sheer luck. It's a lottery. It's sheer luck. And, you know, certainly for the Chicago Blackhawks, I mean, you go back. I'll share a story with you. I was in Cabo San Lucas during the All-Star Break with my family.

And we were having dinner one night, and Patrick Kane came over. He was there on the All-Star Break, and he came over, and I've known Patrick for a lot of years. And we just say, first words out of his mouth, he goes, so how good is this, Bedard kid. And I told him, I said, he's a lot like you, Patrick. He's confident, he's great with the puck, you know, and like, but there was Patrick King, this was in February, and here he is asking me about Connor Bedard. Like, you know, and, you know, and you think back, you think back to the Chicago

Blackouts drafted first overall and getting Patrick Kane. And, you know, it's fascinating to me. Again, we talk about the games, but here's something even further back, you know, and the connection. And maybe I'm dreaming. Maybe I'm romantic, but maybe it'd be interesting if Patrick King came back and, you know, was that player to, you know, be there for young Connor Bernard. Wouldn't shock me. Yeah. Yeah. Greg, I love a GM perspective on this one. I know there's a narrative or talk about that there's a thought that the Black Coast maybe didn't deserve to have a first round pick coming off of the Kyle Beach situation a year and a half ago. And they got

penalized $2 million of course. which they made up triple that in five hours when Fadar was potentially number one pick and Tickna Tadale and stuff like that. If you're a GM in this league, when that situation happens in Chicago, are you upset that they don't have to give up a first round pick or forfeit a pick one year, or those 22 or 2023, you know, from a competitive situation there. Like, I know it's a lot to dive into this whole, you do a whole podcast on this, but like, what would be your feeling is that GM in this league that Chicago went through this whole thing? I know they cleaned house and stuff like that, but they may not deserve to have that overall picks.

Yeah, I think when we talk about deserving, I mean, okay, so we know what unfolded with the Cowpeach situation. We know what the punishment that was needed out was. So in these types of circumstances, I think in anything, you know, we can look at it and go, was the punishment enough? Was it too much? And depending on the lens and your perspective, you know, an argument can be made any which way. You know, one of the things that, you know, and I tried to go back. I didn't hear anybody complaining about the Chicago Blackhawks having that first round pick when they went on the third hole. It only came to light once they won the lottery.

So was it a problem when they had the third pick or was it just a problem that they won the lottery and got the first pick? Because, you know, the commissioner does not have the opportunity to say, well, in case of, you know, you win it, you don't get it. You have to stay in your spot. Now, I know there's lots of lots of different angles to look at this. And we can talk about what Kyle Beach went through. But, you know, when Gary went through it and it's done on the bylaws of the NHL constitution, right, you know, you go through it. Maybe in hindsight we can look at it and go, was it fair? Should they be rewarded like this?

I think it's a fair discussion. But I think when it all ends, you know, the Chicago Blackhawks, when I'm, when I'm, I say the Chicago Blackhawks, the people that were involved have paid a pretty significant price. And, you know, now the question, and so did Kyle Beach. Like, I mean, like, I'm not just talking about, Kyle Beach paid the most significant price. But, you know, how do we, how do we continue to move forward and knowing what the punishment is? And was it enough? Is it too much? And where do we go from here? I mean, it's a franchise. It's a company. And if we're always going to be able to assess and say, that wasn't enough. That wasn't enough punishment.

Or somebody thinks that that was more than enough. And I think that it's not clear cut. It's not night and day with respect to it. And so I look at it and go, you know, they're part of the league. They're part of the process. They paid the penalty. And whether it was high enough or severe enough, I guess that will be debated for for a long time, probably. there were a lot of disappointed fans, a lot of disappointed GMs probably that we're hoping they were going to win that lottery. But I'd like to ask you about the rest of this draft because we've obviously heard about Badaard for a long time, but we've also heard that this draft class just in general is one of the strongest we've seen in a while. You think there are some pretty good secondary prizes to those that didn't get Connor Bader that are still waiting to get picked, right?

Oh, I thought the draft ended at one. there's other players in this draft, Jesse? Like, I've only watched Vodard. Like, maybe when I was expressing on, I've been on too much Connor Bedard video. All kidding inside. Here's the way I define quality draft. I mean, a lot of times we get, we all do.

It's the top end and we don't know what's great draft is at the top end. Here's the way I define the quality. I think in this draft, and I, in my own assessments, I think it goes 20, 22 deep with top two line forwards. and top three defensemen. That's what I see. And I think when you can, when you can project those types of players,

are they all going to turn out to be taught two lines? Probably not. That's just what history tells you, right? But that's where I see it now. So when you're picking 10 and you're looking at a top two line forward, and you know, Mike, you and me talked about this back at the 2019 draft.

And Boldie went 12. And like, you know, clear cut number one for top line forward. and he's just won, right? Trevor Zegrois went ninth. And you looked at that draft class and Cole Cawfield went 15. I'm just naming the U.S. kids.

But you go back and look at that draft and it's very, for me, it's very, very similar to this year's draft. The depth of quality player, the complainer. I mean, when you look at skills, skills hard to acquire, top three defensemen, you know, those are essential to any team's success.

And I see them in this draft. Now, Alex Turcott went fifth. I certainly project. at him as a top two line forward. He hasn't found his way yet. Does that mean he won't? But that's the way I see it, Jesse. And I think that there's that level of quality through 20 or 22. And we know there's going to be other players that are going to come out of the second, third, fourth rounds in a handful of them to end up being, how did they get that player there? Jason Robertson comes to mind. Nikita Kuturoff comes to mind. I mean, obviously Caprisoff in the fifth

round. I mean, those are all players that are kind of Mark Stone who you watch this year, Jesse. I mean, there's always going to be those players. But I think that if teams knew that they were going to be not good, I don't think they would have waited that long to draft them. Craig, as I said, I wanted to ask you about the playoffs, but just one more thing about this draft. I mean, you know, I'm really looking forward to going back to Nashville. And I wanted to ask you about the 2003 draft. To me, it's the best draft that I've ever covered. Not only do you look at the first round, but you know, you think of guys like what, Bergeron and Pavelsky and Louis Erickson and Shea Weber and I think David Backus was in that

draft. What's your biggest memory of that 2003 draft in Nashville? And are you amazed that that is 20 years ago and we're going back there now this year? Yeah, well, I mean, you look at it and I think back to the draft. And again, Patrice Bergeron, if you watch Patrice play in junior hockey, there was never ever anything in his game that jumped out at you. And you could see the hockey sense and everything. Well, isn't that Patrice Bergeron to a T in his NHL career?

And I think what jumps out to me, Mike, is, you know, like there's certain things that are going to just attract you to them. You know, the great skating, the great shot, the flare. I mean, that's just something that captures our attention. And, you know, I think for me, what I've learned is that like those plays, players, the orderly part of the game is something that the NHL requires. Not for everybody, but a lot of players, I call it the flash and dash element. A lot of players have a lot of and they're good players at that level of skill, but it doesn't translate unless you have those

other things. I think, you know, that's just one part of it. Watching Mark Andre Fleury, who you now have watched closely here, you know, he was such a talent. And, you know, he wants to went first overall and you look back all these years later, he has become, he's a Hall of Fame goalie. I mean, as simple as that, Hall of Fame person. And what amazes me is it's still all these years later, Vasilevsky and 19th, the best player from the 2012 draft. And you start, and I still hear people talking against drafting goaltenders high. I don't know why.

I just, and I know there's only one slot and I know, but I just had this discussion with some people in Vancouver. They said, oh, geez, you know, why would they drag, they took you a lavery. Okay, yeah, they took ULAV. They also took Yves. They also took Jake Furtanning. Does that mean they're not going to draft right-wingers now because he didn't turn out the way they thought?

You know, it just seems that there's always this kind of groundswell against goaltenders. And if they don't make it, if you draft them high, somehow that that is, you should never do it again. I've watched over many years, centers, right-wings, left-wings, defensemen, that were high picks fail, not making. make it. So we're not going to draft them either. And I think, again, you look at the, the first part of that draft, like Gerda went, I think Gerda went four. A massive flash in

dashboard, massive flash and dash player. And then you start to look at Mike Richards and Ryan Kessler, who won 23, 24. Those are just a couple of me. Ryan Suter went, I think, seventh. Mike was seven. You know, you look at him and you just go, well, how does this happen? Shea Weber in the second round, Braden Coburn, eighth overall. Braden had a good NHL career. So the projection part, Braden was a great skater, bait, lanky, and Shea Weber was a force. Now, that becomes the trick of the draft. And I think that, I think going back to that draft, Mike, what becomes really educational

is understanding, okay, why did Weber end up in that spot? And why did Bergdra end up in that spot, just to name two? Then you can go back and try to apply. it now and say, okay, is there anybody that has a similar, not style of play, but is in a similar kind of situation where, you know, you look at it, they're not quite refined, they're not quite developed, they're not flashy. And, you know, I mean, Che Weber certainly is going to have an argument for the Hall of Fame. Bergeron is automatic, and those are mid-second round picks at that time. Yeah. You mentioned Richards and Carter who always joined at the hip. I mean,

How about was it Anaheim draft traded, I think, two seconds to Dallas to get Corey Perry and wind up getting Perry and Getslaff in the same draft, won them a cup. So pretty cool. Yeah, it is. Well, think about that team. Think about those players. Not only did the teams have success, or the players have success individually, their teams had success winning cups.

They represented their countries in international play to great success. I mean, when you think about what that draft class did, it, it, it, It's beyond impressive on so many different levels. And I think that that becomes a separator too, Mike, or when we call it the best draft class, okay, let's say it ever. Yeah. Greg, I wanted to kind of segue to the playoffs if we could. And one of the biggest stories and not just if you're in the center of hockey universe

is the Maple Leafs. And I'm as surprised as anyone that they are in this position, their season on the line by the time this podcast has even put out there tonight, after beating the lightning in the first round I thought they kind of exercised their demons there. I'll never forget something you told me a couple of years back. I was asking about Julian Bravesball on the lightning after they got swept by the blue jackets

and do they blow it up or not. So the number one job of a GM is to have a clear and brutally honest feel for your team, evaluation of your team, not what they hope they can be or think they can be, well, what they truly are and then decide to go from there how to help it or not. And I was curious, if you're the GM of the Toronto Maple Leafs and they lose them the series against the Florida Panthers,

what is your evaluation of that team or what they go from here? Well, I mean, you know that there's going to be profound disappointment. Even if they extend this series, but if they lose this series versus the Florida Panthers, I mean, it's going to be profound disappointment. One of the things that I continuously look back to, and 2020, they played game five against Columbus, and they didn't get anything what it mattered. 2021 against Montreal, I mean, they were up three games to one, seemingly in full control, and by the time they got to game seven in a must-win game,

they had nothing. You know, you go back last year to Tampa Bay, 20, 22, game seven, nothing, absolutely nothing. Now you're going to Florida after losing the first two games at home, and in game three, absolutely nothing, and absolutely nothing from their top players. Maybe there's a greater pattern here than people realize. Maybe this just isn't Florida.

maybe it's Florida, Tampa Bay, Columbus, and the Montreal Canadians exposed some flaws in the group. Now, does that mean that all these players are not good? No, they're terrific players. They're top-end players, superstars. But sometimes a collection of stars, including superstars, sometimes doesn't work. And I think the brutally honest part has to come from the evaluation of saying, okay, what can we do? to give those players a better chance to succeed. And what do we need to do with our team in making decisions

that may not include some of these players? I go back to 1995, 94-95 with the Red Wing. Really good team. Scotty Bowman had been there for a couple years at that point in time. Go back and look, they had Ray Shepherd, they had Paul Eisenbart, they had Dino Cicerelli, they had all that skill around Eisenman and Federoff and all those good players. And they couldn't win.

And they went to the final and couldn't win. Then they had that 62 win season in 1996. And better, I mean, Iisman had a better off were the ones taking the heat. They had Litscham on the blue line. They had better on. Eisenman specifically was the one taking the heat. But they evaluated and they said, wait a second, we got good, we got to have to change the makeup of the team. They made a different decision.

They said, no, these guys we can win with, but we need more Marty LaPoint, more Darren McCarty, more Chris Draper, more Kirk Maltby. just like in 2020, more Berkeley Goodroll, more Blake Coleman. They knew they had top-end players. And I think that's where Toronto finds themselves. I don't think it's as simple. I'm hearing lots of blow it up, blow it up, get rid of them. You can't want it to go. Well, you could have done that in Detroit too.

I think that obviously when you have the result that after going through the process, that helps you. But at the same time, I think that you have to be, to use that term again, brutally honest with yourself. What do we have to do and not be knee-jerk? And the hardest thing to do is to not be knee-jerk. Because you can't undo things. I tell a story all the time when I was in Minnesota.

We traded Larry Murphy. We traded Larry Murphy. There was just this kind of disdain for him. We traded him to Pittsburgh. We were on a conference call four weeks later looking for a right-shot defenseman that could run our power play and move the buck. It was like, wait, why do we? And then he won the Stanley Cup that next.

I mean, Pittsburgh beat us in the Stanley Cup final. And we were an e-jerk. It's simple as that. And you better be careful. It wasn't until we ended up with Seri Zubov that we finally found a capable replacement. And that was five years later. So, you know, be careful about trading skill.

And Scotty Bowman always reminded me of that. You can't win in this league with high-end skill. How you surround it, how you support it. And it doesn't always mean you're keeping every single player. But you've got to understand that. And I think it'll be a really hard place for Toronto to be in in the evaluate. Because I think that if they do lose, I think the first place they're going to start is with the manager. And it's going to be a new manager that's going to have to make the decisions.

I don't think it'll be the current one. Great. Can we get you on every week? Is that possible? Right. Yeah. It's always possible. Mike.

I don't have to be here. I don't have to be here. I can buy. First of all, you guys are all good people. So, like, I mean, for me, it always comes down to the people. Like, I got time for good people all the time. Thanks, Craig. I feel like we could sit here and talk hockey for hours.

But unfortunately, we can't. But thank you for your time, Craig. This has been great. And we'll definitely have to have you on in the future. Well, thank you very much, Jesse and Joe and Mike. I mean, like I said, I have great respect for what you do. I have great respect for your knowledge. And, you know, I feel the same way.

I feel like we can just talk and, you know, have good exchanges. And I learn as much as anybody having these discussions. So thank you for being as great as you guys are at your jobs. It extends all the way through. So I'm always happy to be part of it. And thanks for having me. Back at you. Thanks so much.

Appreciate it. All right. And we've got rapid fire coming up next. So don't go anywhere. All right. It's time for my favorite part of the show and yours. Rapid Fire. We're going to start off with a guy who seems to burn brighter and burn out quicker than any coach I've ever seen.

Gerard Galant, I got to know him here in Vegas. Awesome coach. It seems like everywhere he goes, he's incredible. And everyone is saying, how the heck did this guy get fired? And then a couple years later, he's looking for another job. Obviously, let go by the Rangers after just going to the conference finals a year ago. We'll start with you, Joe. what did you think of the Rangers part in ways with your Gland?

Well, it is amazing to think that the three Jack Adams Award finalists from a year ago are all without a job right now. It just shows like either the lack of patience that some teams have with their head coaches, unless all you are in different plays in Minnesota. They're pretty patient here. But I'm just saying, like, you know, he had actually a conference final last year, you know, right? Up there against Tampa.

This year, 108 points, 113 points. like, and it just shows you the power of the player, right? The power of players in their exhibiting's making their claim and saying, hey, same with Daryl Sutter, right? Like the power of players right now and those voices in those exhumating really kind of shining through for me because I don't think Gerard Gleon's a bad coach. I mean, I think there's some weaknesses in what he does, which has been shown over the time.

I just think there'd be a, there probably has to be a better unit with the yang with him, let's have another assistant coach that could know more exes and know these things and complement what he does. But it just shows the impatience, though, I think management, because who we're going to get right now for the coach, the Rangers. Well, Larry Brooks had some theories the other day that we could talk about a little bit as well. But I just think, you know, I know Gerard really well,

and I just think he's apolitical. You know, he's one of those people that doesn't hold back. He gets, you know, if he gets angry, he's going to tell it like it is. And I think sometimes that creates friction with the people above them. And then they just eventually pull the plug, not just the players. And I think, you know, Arthur Stapel reported, and I believe Elliot Friedman, reported that there was a confrontation

or an argument between, you know, Chris Drury and Gerard Grilante after game three. That's not totally abnormal. But you just felt like this was coming. And I think that's why, you know, Gerard was so tense in his end-of-the-year exit meeting. And to your point, it is amazing to me that players just feel so comfortable talking and being honest with a Chris Drury or a Daryl Sutter reported. And it was pretty funny that the report that came out, I think, by Frank Saravelli, that a bunch of Calgary Flames players rescinded their trade requests after Daryl was fired. You got to wonder what happens now with Tree Living. Like, I mean, from everything I understand is that Tree Living essentially left Calgary because he didn't want to work with Daryl. And now Daryl's gone. Trees is a free agent. You know, maybe they just bring them back. But it was pretty great. Like, you know, Larry is always ahead of the game. But it was pretty crazy. He said that if Toronto, uh, if Toronto, uh, you know, you know, gets, if Toronto essentially bows out, then maybe Dubus gets fired, goes to Pittsburgh,

then he hires Sheldon Keefe, who's going to be fired in Toronto, and then Mike Sullivan's going to be fired in Pittsburgh and go to the Rangers. Like he had all these connecting dots. It's not often that Larry, before about three things happens, goes and reports that, but he doesn't just throw stuff against the wall. So, you know, somebody's telling him something interesting there. Should be a fun offseason. some awful news out of Colorado. Gabriel Landisgog, obviously he's been dealing with a knee injury for a while now. They announced he's going to undergo cartilage transplant with his right knee on May 10th,

and they're already ruling him out for all of the next season. Obviously, awful news. That surgery sounds terrifying. Just what were you guys initial thoughts when you see Landisog out for as long as they're already ruling him out for? Well, exactly that. I mean, that is, I've never even heard of cartilage transplant surgery. You know, and it's funny because I was talking to a doctor after Mason Shaw here in Minnesota had his fourth ACL surgery. And I said how many ACLs are essentially too much?

Like, can you continually get reconstructive surgeries at two and two on each knee? And the doctor basically says you can have it countless times. It's just essentially up to the patient. Like, do I want to deal with this again? but this one I've never even heard of. Feel bad for the guy. He's played a hard brand of hockey for a long time. This seemed like a fluke injury when it happened.

And clearly it just hasn't gotten better. He's tried to skate and skate and skate and it just didn't work. And now he's going to have the surgery. So hopefully we see Gabriel Landiscagg on the ice again. Well, absolutely heartbreaking thing for him and for the fans there and the team. Like you lose your captain and not just the local captain, but a very play driving force there for them. I remember in the Tampa series,

He's like, last time I saw him play, and he was carrying the cup out of the bowels of Emily Arena, and they were all, had all their bloodlights fueled and walking past us and, you know, chanting outside the media, you know, like, go from that joy he had to now having to sit two full seasons. And he's not a young guy either, but I just amazed at hockey players

and what he must have been playing through for that to be no cartilage and then have to come back and have this surgery. So, you know, best of look for his recovery, but it kind of just, another way it shows you how banged up the Kalad Avalanche were this year. and what they were missing from last year's cup team. It's so hard to repeat.

Yeah, and he's still got six years, I believe. It's after this year left on that deal, but he signed the eight-year deal. So still quite a bit of runway. Hopefully we get to see him back on the ice, like Mike said. And we'll wrap up with a little bit more fun news. And we've now got the weekend in on the celebrity death match to get the Ottawa senator. So the weekend, Snoop Double G, Ryan Reynolds. I cannot believe that the Ottawa senators are somehow now the hottest A-list celebrity purchase that everyone wants to make.

Let's talk about this. Mike, which celebrity do you think is the best celebrity to bring the senators forward in their future? Snoop, baby. Yeah, I said this on last year's podcast. He's one of the few celebrities that I've seen in person. I remember at an Allster game where it just stopped me in my tracks. and I just watched because it's Snoop. It is amazing that this team has become the coolest franchise.

They've gone from, like, the Athletic did a freaking months and months and months expose on the tenure that was Eugene Melnick. And now they are going to have a new ownership group that is going to be clearly celebrity driven here. The NHL's got to love this. This publicity is incredible, regardless of which group eventually gets it.

But this is just, you know, usually you see this stuff in other sports, not so much the NHL and of Ottawa of all teams. Pretty crazy. Well, I mean, I grew up in 90s rap, so like Snoop would be obviously my top choice, but I mean,

Ryan Reynolds has the background experience of running and managing a team in a soccer club, which has gone really well, so I think you'd have more, I think Snoop would do a lot of work for the, you know, making it more diverse and obviously helping the game in that way. But I was stunned to hear the figure of

$1 billion. dollars for like to buy the team like you've to imagine how many 30 owners in the n-h-r like ah got to cash out right now and i think somebody lightning raised in value if ottawa senators are worth this or what what's Vegas worth what's anybody you know like what's the Minnesota wild worth like it's it's unbelievable to think of how what the next you know expansion fee will be or like what this will do for the values of franchises around the league yeah i think paying the 500 million dollar expansion fee suddenly seems like great deal.

I don't know if you're Bill Foley or the group in Seattle. Yeah. So, but like Mike said, great for the NHL. This is, regardless of who ends up getting it, it's great that the,

the NHL seems to be part of the cool kids now with, with the celebrities wanting to own them like, like you see in other sports. Good stuff, guys. This has been great. See, who needs Pizzo? Thanks for having me. Yeah, who needs Pizzo?

You do a fine job hosting. Joe does a fine job filling in. Big, We want to thank everyone out there for listening. And as always, we'll remind you to subscribe to the Athletics NHL YouTube channel at YouTube.com slash the athletic hockey show. Looking forward, we've got 2023 draft prospect Will Smith is going to join Sean Gentilly and Max Boltonin as their guest this week on the Athletic Hockey Show USA.

And Wild GM Bill Guerin joined these two, Rousseau and Smith, on straight from the source for a post-mortem on the wild. The Athletic Hockey Show continues Thursday. with Sean McIndoe and Shana Goldman. Thanks to Craig Button. Our guest next week is Doug McLean. Mike and Joe, I'm Jesse. Roundtable returns next Wednesday.

See you then.