The Athletic Hockey Show - Toronto Maple Leafs fined $100K, Bobby Orr to 'throw out' first puck at Winter Classic, and Canada's goalie production problem

Episode Date: December 29, 2022

In a definitely not-prerecorded at all edition of The Athletic Hockey Show, Ian and Sean discuss TML being hit with an $100K fine for traveling early, and Sheldon Keefe's fine for yelling at Wes McCauley. Then, how games are New Year's Eve are scheduled and if it's better to have a matinee game or a night game that day. Next, the announcement of Bobby Orr throwing out the "first puck" at the Winter Classic, and if the outdoor game novelty may be losing it's charm.Next, in "Granger Things", Jesse Granger joins the discussion about whether Canada has a goalie development problem, and thoughts on the unhinged Red Wings-Penguins game. Then, a listener gives Ian and DGB ultimate hockey power with a VM, and to wrap it up, a look back with "This Week in Hockey History".Have a question for Ian and Sean? Email [e-mail] or leave a VM: [phone]!Save on a subscription to The Athletic: theathletic.com/hockeyshowSubscribe to The Athletic Hockey Show on YouTube: http://youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show. We are back with another Thursday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. And I'll tell you what, we are not doing one of those. Hey, did they record this show like three weeks ago, year in review? What's the, are they kind of speaking in generalities? Nope. This is, I tell you what, it's Ian Mendes Sean McHan-Doo with you on this, the 29th of December.

In fact, I feel like, Sean, we should have. one of those things where we like, you, you know, the hold up today's newspaper to prove that you are. That's exactly the vibe I'm getting from this. Yeah. Yeah. We're going to go deep. We're hitting it really hard. We're hitting all of the news this week of which there is none. Nothing happened this week. But we're here to talk about. We are here because we're contractually obliged to provide new content every Thursday. That's exactly.

Yeah. That's why we're here. But look, there were games last night, Wednesday night, like even just to prove, we can tell you, The ducks, they beat the golden nights in a shootout, three to two. So, yeah, that's right. This is a fresh episode. You know this is live because we would not have pre-recorded that possibility. No, three, two, in a shootout. And, you know, the other thing they did, you know, we could have recorded this early.

We could have, like, done it the night before. But then we would risk the athletic getting fined for having us start early. and you can't do that. Can't do that over the holidays. No, clearly. See, this is the perfect segue. How's that for a segue? It's a plus segue.

Radio guy here thinks he's the only one who can do his segue. Yeah. There you go. No, no. That was elite because the Toronto Maple Leafs, if our listeners didn't see this story, look, a lot of people kind of shut their phones off or whatever for the holidays, you may not have seen this.

So the Maple Leafs played in St. Louis on December the 27th when the NHL schedule resumed on Tuesday. day night. But the Leafs flew out on boxing day, which is the 26th late at night. That was in direct violation of the CBA, which basically says, look, teams cannot do anything. No team-related activities, December 24th, 25th, 26th. Leafs said to hell with it. We're flying to St. Louis night before. We don't want to fly in the day off. We're flying in the night before they get a $100,000 fine. But here's the thing. They won the game.

And what I find interesting is look at the way some of those games played out on Tuesday. And I'll use a great example. The Colorado Avalanche went to Arizona and lost. And they had to fly their day off. Now, I'm wondering, if you're the Maple Leafs, I mean, $100K really is a drop in the bucket. I mean, would you not pay like $100,000 for a win? It's probably worth it, is it? Is it, right?

Absolutely. Team like Toronto? 100%. This is $100,000 for the Toronto Maple Leafs is a slap on the wrist, first and foremost. So I know there have been a few people say, well, I can't, you know, why is the NHL making a big deal of this? It's a very, very small fine. And yeah, look, it's a weird situation because the CBA says you can't do anything 24, 25, 26. And yet the NHL schedules games on the 27th, and obviously it goes without saying, every game has a road team.

So half the teams in action that night have to travel the day of the game, which is not something NHL teams typically do. They like to fly out the night before, get in, even if you get in late, get in, get asleep in a hotel room, and then get up and do your usual routine. And so the Leafs apparently, they flew out at like 10.30 at night. If they had waited until midnight, they would have been okay. But they waited as long as I guess they felt appropriate. And then they hopped every one on. We're told that, you know, the players, the players didn't mind. But you know what?

It's in the CBA. It's perfectly valid to say, look, man, the CBA says, it's a day off, it's a day off. You can't turn around and just say, wow, you know, they didn't, they didn't mind. The Leafs broke the rule. It's cut and dried. And, yeah, they get a little slap on the wrist fine. They won the game, as you point out.

You know, I'm sure everyone's probably pretty okay with how this played out. But do you, okay, do you think the Leafs, like, they tried to, I guess, I know, pun intended here, fly under the radar? Like, do you think the NHL found out through like a flight tracker? Or did they just straight up say, look, we're flying out at 10.30, hit us up with the fine. Like, yeah, I mean, they must have known. They must have known that this is going to be in, in violation. And, and they, they rolled with it.

Or maybe, I can't imagine they thought they get away with it. Maybe, I don't know, we're not supposed to be able to have flight coordinates on Twitter anymore. Maybe they figured that had changed and they could they could sneak in that way. But no, I don't imagine. I mean, there are literally Twitter accounts that do nothing but monitor sports teams, flights and travel. I can't imagine that the Leafs really thought they were going to get away with this. Whether they thought it was going to be a fine or what the amount would be, I don't know. But I think, you know, the CBA seems, the CBA can be a pretty confusing doctor.

on a lot of things. Seems pretty clear on this one. So, you know, you pay your money and you take your chances. And the Leafs paid their money. And it worked out with the win. So the other thing I wonder is, like, does the NHL need to be a little bit more flexible on this one? And I say this because if you, depending on where you live in North America,

um, the 23rd, 24th and 25th of December were absolute logistical nightmares for travel. And I mean, there's something to be said for maybe the Maple Leafs are like, listen, this weather is so unpredictable. We cannot roll the dice. And what if we're sitting on the tarmac for an extra few, whether minutes, out, whatever, on the day of the game because we got a de-ice or something? Like, like, just let's get there. Like, could the league not look at that and say, wow, this is one of the craziest travel stretches we've ever seen in North America around the holiday, cut him a break here. Cut him a break.

Like, you know what? Like, who has a problem with like, what, like, is it a competitive advantage, really, that they're, they're leaving at 10.30 p.m.? But then where does it end, right? When you have, it's, it's in the document. This was negotiated with the players. And, you know, this is in, this is Gary Betman's NHL. We can talk all we want about.

It's a partnership. It's not. Absolutely everything is a battle. if the players went to the league and said, we want this time off. We want this time with our families. We want this time to, you know, because I, geez, teams would have guys bag skating on Christmas morning if they could.

You've got to put it in the document that says, this is, this is a, we've got this time off. And as soon as you allow a team to say, yeah, but, you know, the weather, yeah, but this or that. and start squeezing on that, then you've, you've opened the floodgate. So I'm all, I'm a Leafs fan, but on this one, I'm pro worker, screw management, get the, get them, get them their time off that they deserve. And if, you know, management wants to break the rules and let them pay. But what? Let me ask you this. By the way, speaking of the Leafs getting fine, did you see the Sheldon Keith?

25K. fine. I like that that to me was was maybe even more more interesting even though it's not you know it's not unusual to see a coach get fined. But did you see the circumstances around what the call was and who the official was and how that all added up? Well, okay. So I don't know the back like I don't understand the back. Is there a backstory here? There is a backstory. Okay. Which is what makes it interesting. Okay. So like me because I saw the $25,000 fine for what he did in St. Louis on on Tuesday. So he got. he got a fine for 25, I'm forgetting a little too loud and aggressive with the reps, which is not, you know, if you're a Carolina Hurricanes fan, this is not a unique, this is not a new rule that you're learning about. Basically, the coaches can only go so far.

Did not get, I don't believe, a bench minor or anything during the game, but got a fine afterwards. But what is interesting is two things. First of all, the call that he was mad about was, it was a non-call and it was on a goal that was scored against the Maple Leafs, and basically the Blues got away with a little bit of a pick play on one of the Leafs defenders, intentionally, you know, sent somebody got in his way, picked them off, didn't really lead directly to the goal. I mean, there was a few seconds in between the player was able to get back in and everything. So it was the sort of thing where, you know,

if you're just looking at it, you might be going like, yeah, you know, they could have called that, but why would that, why would that set him off as much as it did? The other thing to know is the referee who didn't call it was Wes McCauley. Our old pal, Wes McCauley. Well, if you think about it from the playoffs. Wes McCauley was also one of the two referees in game seven against Tampa when the Toronto Maple Leafs had a goal taken off the board in a game seven on home ice when the pick play was called. Now, I'm not sure that Wes McCauley was actually the referee who called the pick play in game seven. But he was one of the two guys.

And it was a very frustrating call for Lee fans because I actually, I think Wes McCauley was actually the ref deep in the zone, and he didn't call it. And it was the ref way back at Center Rice who called. And again, it takes a goal off the board in a game seven. It was one-nothing at the time. That would have been the tying goal for the Leafs. Changes the whole flow of the game.

That's, I'm positive. Now, we didn't, I don't think Sheldon Keith has commented on what he was mad about or anything like this, but you put the two and two together. This to me is Sheldon Keith with a little bit of payback in his back pocket going, oh, now we're not calling pick plays. Now we're not calling interference because the frustration for the Leafs in that game seven call was it was clearly a penalty by the letter of the rulebook. It was a very obvious pick play. But it's just not a call that you see very often. That is the sort of thing. refs tend to let that go and to call it suddenly in a game seven when we know very often

there's there's very little gets called was was frustrating for the Leafs and I think this is Sheldon Keith I'm I would I would bet anything on it this is him going off on West McCauley going oh now we're letting that go again I thought we were calling I thought we had to call that no matter what no matter the situation and and letting off some of that frustration and I'll say this as a Leaf fan I don't mind it 20 $25,000, maybe well spent because, look, the end of that series against the Lightning, you had the pick play that got called, took a goal off the board. In game six in Tampa with the Leafs winning, they get called for a five-on-three power play

against the town allows Tampa to tie the game on a phantom high stick where there was a, you know, a high stick that wasn't a high stick. They had snap back and all that, but it wasn't called. At the time, they didn't make a big deal out of the officiating and rightfully so because nobody would have wanted to hear it. If they had come out of game six crying about the refereeing, everybody would have said, they're already making their excuses.

If they'd done it after game seven, everybody would say, loser mentality. Nobody wanted to hear it from the least at the time. But now that a little water's under the bridge, you know, if Sheldon Keefe wants to find a way to remind some of these officials, especially the guy at the West McCauley's

who were going to be doing the big game sevens next time around, say, hey, just as a reminder, we got screwed hard last time, and I'm going to keep reminding you of it. You know what? You work the refs a little bit? Maybe that does buy you a call a crucial one at some point in the game seven that we all know is coming for the Leafs in the next round. Because, you know, hockey gods forbid that they get through a playoff series without going to a do-or-die game. I don't mind it.

You know, that's not bad for, it might be one of the better $25,000 check Sheldon Keith's ever written. I'm surprised there's not a kind of a crowd-sourcing. from Leafs fans to try to pay the pass the hat around. Yeah. Exactly. You know, give the money to charity or something. But yeah, Leaves win that game in St. Louis, a great Willie Neelander overtime winner on that one.

And we talk about this. Look, the league takes a pause 24, 25, 26 in around Christmas time. They don't take a pause on New Year's Eve. And I want to ask you this because as I looked ahead of the schedule, Sean and I saw, on December 31, So on Sunday, or sorry, Saturday of this week, there's 12 games. That's a pretty busy schedule in the NHL. Here's what's funny.

Half the games are matinee. Half the games are night games. Half the teams are playing New Year's Eve. They're like, we're going to do the one o'clock or, you know, local time start or the, you know, whatever. One, you know, noon, whatever. You know, a couple of teams like Washington's doing a four o'clock game. And then you've got teams like Detroit and I think Calgary, Edmonton, they're all playing nighttime games. And I'm wondering from a, from a viewer's perspective,

whether you're going to attend the game as a spectator buying a ticket or you're at home, do you not think that the matinee works better on New Year's Eve? Like, wouldn't you rather your favorite team is playing in the afternoon than at night? See, if you were asking young Sean, I would have been like, yeah, you got to get the game in the afternoon, man. I'm not watching Hocking. Old Sean is like, you know what? I could, that might be a decent way to spend my, uh, spend my, uh, spend my New Year's Eve is, uh, sitting in the, in the easy chair watching some hot.

Yelling at the TV. Yeah. I mean, you've, you've got the Christmas break. There's typically not a ton going on on what I would normally say January 1st, a winter classic day, right? The league tends to clear that off. Uh, I mean, there's only so many days that I think you can take off without, you know, you got to make that time up somewhere else and you end up scrunch.

up the schedule down the line. So I don't mind having the New Year's Eve action. I think it's up to the teams. I think there's probably some teams going, yeah, you know, it's a good night for us. You know, people, it's especially this year being a Saturday night. You know, that's, that's a good night in a lot of markets. They probably want to have that game. It's probably some other teams that have said, yeah, you know, we've tried it in the past and we didn't really, didn't really do all that well. But, you know, especially for those markets where you've got the, the rink is downtown or where it's close to, you know, some of the other action, you know, you'd probably have a pretty good, pretty good night as far as selling tickets.

And then the game's going to wrap up around 10, 10.30 and everybody spills out and you go do something fun. Wouldn't work probably in Ottawa because he'd still be stuck in the parking lot for when, right when New Year's hits. When New Year's, everybody's honking the horns, but you can't tell if it's New Year's or just a typical exit plan for sense fans try to get home. Yeah. But, yeah, I don't, I don't mind it. I've never been to a game on New Year's Eve. I don't think.

Maybe I did when I was a kid because, you know, that's the other thing. This is a good time of year for a lot of teams because this is where people have got the hockey tickets for the stocking stuff or, you know, for their gift over the holidays. And, you know, maybe that that New Year's game is a good one to go to. I don't. Now that I'm saying that, maybe I may have been to a game, maybe a New Year's Eve game when I was a kid. but certainly never bought tickets on my own as an adult to go see one. But in the right market, I can see that being a pretty cool night out. Yeah, you know what?

I think I went to one New Year's Eve game as a kid, and it was Vancouver at home to L.A. in like the early 90s. And I feel like it was a 5 o'clock local time start. Got it. Not 8 o'clock. I think. I think it was a 5 o'clock. But you got in Vancouver,

guys are used to that, right? You having your games start early, and you're very chill about it. You don't mind. Oh, yeah. Nobody ever complains in Vancouver. Look, you mentioned the fact that, look, everyone kind of looks at January 1st, Winter

Classic Day, and that, you know, that's kind of like the feature game. It's the afternoon game. And this year, if people don't know, it's at Fenway. Again, it's Red Sox, home of the Red Sox, it's the Bruins and the Penguins. The reason why I have Red Sox top of my brain is the league announced yesterday, Sean, so I think it was Wednesday that they announced this, that they got a unique way of opening the Winter Classic on Sunday. And that is going to be Bobby Orr is going to be, quote, unquote, throwing out the first puck.

There's going to be kind of, they're calling it the ice diamond. So in between where the rink is on the field at Fenway and the green monster, There's going to be like this, they're calling it an auxiliary rink and it's shaped like a diamond. And this is where Bobby Orr will throw out the first puck. It seems to me like that maybe Jason Veritech, the longtime Red Sox catcher will be the guy. I think he's going to be the one accepting the throw. Like, how do we feel about this? Like, you know, sometimes we rag on the NHL for just, you know, doing the same old, same old.

I don't think they've ever done this at any of these stadium games. How do we feel about Bobby O'er throwing out the first part? Yeah, I mean, try something new, especially with, man, I, do you feel like this Winter Classic is getting any hype? No. I mean, yeah, this is, I will tell you, and this is, this is a reflection on me more than, more than on. the DNHL and maybe just where I met as a fan.

I knew the game was at Fenway and I mean, I don't love the fact that we're already repeating venues. You know, this is the second time the game's been at Fenway. But the other day on,

we do a thing in the Slack channel for the athletic writers where, you know, we just, we make our picks for big games and they're giving the winner classic that treatment.

And they said, you know, just all you got to do is just just click, just put whatever logo of the team you think is going to win. Just go into your little emojis and pick the logo. And I had seen there were already a couple people that voted for the Bruins. And that was it. Those are the only votes. And I literally had to sit there and go, who the hell are the Bruins playing in the winter classic that is like two days away? And I had to sit and really think about it. And then I was going down the list.

And I was like, well, it's not Chicago. It's not only as Washington. And then, of course, when I got to Pittsburgh, I thought, yeah, because of the ownership, that's why it all fits together with them. But it took me a while to even figure out who's playing. So as far as Bobby, yeah, great. Let's do something a little different. Let's mix it up a bit. I don't mind that.

I hope he's practicing, though. Have you ever tried to throw a puck? It's not easy. It's not an easy thing to throw, man. And there is, you know, it can get away from you. If he tries to gun it, good luck to the catcher. Because, man, you think it's tough catching a Pedro slider. Wait until you see a puck that's thrown at a 45-degree angle, man.

That thing will curve all over the place. Okay, but here's what's interesting. Also part of this, you know, first puck throw, I mentioned Jason Veritech. Tim Wakefield is going to be part of this. You want to talk about the term knuckle puck. I kind of want, I think I, I think we need to see Tim Wakefield throw a knuckle puck, don't we? I would like to see that.

Yeah. Yes. I'm actually, I'm a little bit more interested in that than, uh, than, uh, than seeing, in Bobby Orr. Um, but yeah, that, that would be a good one. Okay. Now I'm trying to think, could you, could you do it with a puck? I think so, right?

Like, I mean, if anybody can do it, he's the guy. They got the right guy. Didn't used to a lot, like, when, and Wakefield first broke in with Pittsburgh in the early 90s. And I think that's when, I think CBS was doing the MLB games back then. And they had, it was like right at the very beginning of like the super slow motion. Yep. And Wakefield's, like you would just see no rotation on the, it was fascinating. Wakefield was the first guy I remember that because, you know, obviously there was the,

the, the Necro brothers and other knuckleballers before then. But you're right, we didn't have the super slow most. So you just see, like it would look frustrating, right? Like your team would be facing Phil Necro. And you'd be like, this dude's throwing at half speed. How come he's making the, how come the batters can't hit it? It looks like I could hit that. And then it wasn't until you finally got that view of it.

And you're just like, oh, okay, I get it now. So, yeah, I'm fascinated to see how this thing, how this thing plays out because, yeah, look, it might be something totally different. And like you said, this thing might be getting a bit stale. So let's try to do some fun things here. It's fun for the fans in the local market. It's a lot like the All-Star game at this point.

point, unfortunately, because the All-Star game, the game itself is awful. You know, everything they've tried to make it work better. It just never seems to click. But anytime somebody like me starts complaining about the All-Star game or maybe even says, hey, do we even need to do this? It's like, hey, the fans in the local market love it. The kids who get to go, they love it. It's going to be a big memory for them.

Same with the Winter Classic. You know what? If you're going and you've never been to an outdoor game, you'll have a great time. You're not going to be able to see the game. You know, hate to break it to you. It's going to be, it's not going to be an entertaining event to watch as far as watching a hockey game. But everything else that goes around it.

And, you know, I'm sure we'll get some great views of Fenway, even though we've seen it before, that, you know, they'll make sure it looks real good. Hopefully the weather cooperates and all that stuff. It's neat. And it's great for the fans, but, you know, the rest of us in other markets. I think the NHL is starting to see some diminishing returns on this. Unfortunately, because this is, you talk about the NHL being creative. The outdoor games is the one thing in the last decades that you could truly point to and say that was the NHL being truly creative, not following some other league,

not copying something that somebody else was doing. I know there had been some of the college outdoor games and that, But this was the NHL leading the way on doing something really cool with venues. And unfortunately, they went to the well a little too often a few years in there. And I think that diminished it. And I don't know. Hopefully we can get back to doing unique venues next. I know they wanted to do this with the ownership and everything with Pittsburgh and Boston.

But let's get back to doing in cool places we haven't been to. You know, this week between Christmas and New Year, a lot of the focus for hockey fans is, not just on the NHL but on the World Junior hockey championships taking place in Halifax and Canada they bounce back they just dust the Germans seven point game for Cona Badard we'll get to that in a second but I want to

talk about you know they lose against Chechia 5-2 in the opener on Boxing Day Canada I'm speaking of and they got some shaky goaltending and it you see that the people bring it up again why does this country struggle or feel like it's struggles to produce high-end goaltenders.

And, you know, even when we were looking and kind of projecting, like, Team Canada's roster at the last Olympic Games, you're like, all of a sudden, you're like, I think McKenzie Blackwood might be in the mix. Like, what's your theory? You go down. That's, you're doing the Canadian Olympic team. You go down, you put the forward lines together. You're like, I got Nathan McKinnon out of the third line.

Oh, we're going to, oh, look at this defense. I got to, you know, look at the, this is going to be, we're absolutely going to destroy everyone and then you're like I think I have Darcy Kemper and Jordan Binnington as my two goalies. That just can't be right. There's no way that because you remember when it used to be like, oh, Patrick Wosses, he's not going to the Olympics. I guess we'll have to make do with Belfour and Broder and Curtis Joseph.

Like it is, it's bizarre and I don't know why it is. I don't know enough about development. I know that, you know, I remember there was back in the, in the late. 90s, right, when Canada kind of went through our little crisis where we lost the World Cup, the Americans, and then we didn't medal in the Olympics. And it was like, the whole skill development is wrong. We're doing, you know, we're too much practice, not enough games, you know, too much emphasis on physicality and all of that. And there was sort of a soul-searching thing. I don't know. Is there the equivalent of that in just goal-tending, like positions?

specific. Is it, I mean, I'm always the sort of guy where a lot of times stuff like this, my default is to say, it could just be coincidence. You know, maybe we just had a lot of great goalies a generation ago and we just don't have, you know, maybe it doesn't mean anything. But it feels like this has been going on for a while now. And we're seeing the European, like Sweden and Finland continue to produce great goaltenders.

You're starting to see the Russians come along now. You know, that had always been kind of there. weakness as well is that they didn't they didn't produce elite goaltenders and now you know you look around the NHL now plus guys on the way it's uh and and and the Americans as well have have been very good at producing goaltenders which is it may be the most interesting because the American development program is is typically the most similar to how we think of things being done in Canada um it's tough yeah but like remember it was about 10 years ago the Canadian hockey league said we're not taking

European goalies. Because they saw this, right? They saw this 10 years ago. Don Cherry was at the forefront of that. Yeah, but it didn't do anything. Like here we are in 2022 and we didn't create this great.

So here's my question for you. Okay. When is the last time? If you think about hockey in Canada, the one area that feels like it pumps out the most players of high-end talent is the GTA, like the greater Toronto area, right? Like you got a high-end development program there.

You think of the Stephen Stamcoast and the Johnny Tavaris and all these guys that come from there, right? Jason Spetsa, all these guys have come from there. When's the last time we have a Blue Chip elite goalie prospect from the GTA? Boy. Like a wow, I can't believe this guy. Like when? I can't think of one.

I mean, is Biddington from that area? I think he is. But he wasn't even like a. Yeah, absolutely. He was an ECHL guy. I mean, part of this, though, is, like, there's not that many great goaltending prospects to start with. And that's where this gets a little bit interesting as well is, you know, we, like, who's the Connor Bedard of goaltending? Like, there really has never been one.

I mean, maybe you could go back to, like, a Mark Andre Fleury being the first overall pick. But even then, it wasn't viewed quite that way. we see the goaltenders are typically not high draft picks. You see maybe one a year going the first round, and it takes a while. You know, Connor Bernard is going to get drafted this year. He's going to step in and be a star in this league at 18. Defensemen typically, you know, maybe it takes them a year or two to get in there, but we get the, you know, the Kail McCar, Adam Fox, Rasmus Dallin,

like young cohort of defensemen are dominating. Goaltenders, a lot of goaltenders don't even make the league until 25, 26 years old. And the reason that this is interesting to the topic is, you know, if we were not producing elite forwards, you'd focus on the kids programs. You'd say, what are we not, we're not producing 18-year-old superstars. What are we doing wrong at 12 years old or 10 or 8 that we're not developing these guys? With goaltending, you know, maybe that's part of it. But also, you know, what are we doing as these guys go from being drafted at 18 and during

that five or six or seven-year window where, you know, we don't see them come in. I mean, Carter Hart, maybe you would say was a guy that was considered an elite goaltending, you know, can't miss guy. And even he was, I believe, second round pick. Yeah. You know, he might be the last one and hasn't completely worked out that way, although he's been better this year. I don't know. It would make for a fascinating deep dive somewhere to figure out, like, what is happening?

and why is it that, you know, is it maybe happening between that age of 20 and 25? How many times do you see some European goaltender gets picked? Your team picks him. You kind of forget about it. And then five years later, you're like, oh, yeah, that's right. I remember that guy. Oh, yeah, he might be ready to come over now. And he comes over and he looks fantastic.

You know, what's happening in that process where it's, you know, quasi-development, quasi-experience. I don't know. I'd love to know, and I wish I did know. You know what? And before we bring our favorite goalie into this segment, Alan Bester's on the show? Alan Bester.

It's actually Ken Regan. Oh, okay. We're going to bring Jesse Granger on here in a second. You know, I just said to you like, hey, when's the last time we had a great goalie prospect from the GTA? Right? Like, I think that's a legitimate question.

Like that's such a, that area pumps out so many high-end players you would think at some point, in theory, you'd have a great goalie. So I just looked this up real quick. And so since the year, 2000, there have only been three goalies taken in the first round from the province of Ontario. Like, these are goalies that are kind of born in Ontario.

And none of them really panned out. There was Adam Monroe, who was taken by Chicago in 2001. He played 17 games in the, in the, in the NHL. There was Mark Byzantine, who was taken by Arizona in 2010. he played one game. And then there's Malcolm Suban, who was taken by Boston in the first round. And yeah, okay, has he played some games in the NHL?

Sure, but I don't think he has lived up to the, you know, first round billing. That's it. From the province of Ontario in the last 20 years, there have been three guys taken in the first round. It's kind of weird. Yeah. And that is, that's interesting.

It's all, you, classic Vancouver guy. So it's all Ontario's fault. It's all Toronto's fault. He got there. Okay. I get it.

All right. Like I said, we're going to bring in our, our favorite goalie and no, it's not Alan Bester. Have you ever, have you ever spoken to Alan Bester at any point? Do you meet Alan Bester?

No. Anything like that? Never. I have not. I've spoken. I've yelled at him from the Grays in Maple Leaf Gardens before, but I don't think that counts as a conversation.

Okay. Sergio Mamezzo, right? I was there. I was at that game. Thanks for bringing up an unpleasant memory. There we go. It's great. I'm going to sit out the rest of the show. Yeah, well, that's perfect because we got Jesse Granger here. And look, we were just talking about Canada's inability to produce goaltenders or just kind of the struggles. It's certainly not a goaltending factory in this country. And I said, hey, let's bring Granger into the conversation because that is his bread and butter. That's the position that he plays. He's been playing since a kid. I know you have a great fascination with it. You spent a lot of time around Mark Andre Fleury, too. So I know that you're very well versed on this topic. So if I asked you, Jesse Granger, what, like,

why do you think Canada has a hard time producing elite level goalies? What's your theory? Yeah, it's something that I actually remember when Mark Andre Fleury moved into third place all time and wins. I talked to him and Marty Brodour about it, about how the top three Brodour, Waugh, and Flurry were all not just Canadian, but from Quebec. And they all, sorry, both of them kind of mentioned, yeah, it sucks that it doesn't seem to be that way anymore. And they mentioned that the sport, the country isn't producing as many good goleys. And they didn't really have a reason for why.

But lately, I've been, I've been kind of poking around and asking some goalie coaches and asking some goalies. I'm kind of in the early stages of reporting this, but I'm reporting on how Russia is a goalie factory now, basically. I mean, you look at Bobrovsky is obviously the older one of the group, but Vasilevsky, Serochin, Jasturkin, Ascarov is the young prospect in Nashville that everyone thinks is going to be so good. So they've kind of taken over the reins. And from what I've gathered so far, I think it's a combination of, well, first off, Sweden and Finland kind of took over there for a while. And from what I understand, a lot of the Swedish and Finnish goalie coaches, there are quite a few of them. that are in Russia training Russian goalies when they're young.

So possibly that influence could be helping Russia and maybe hurting Canada, that they're kind of just on their own and they're not really, I guess, diversifying. And then the other thing is this, and I haven't gotten a chance to ask any of these guys, Sorokin and Shisterkin, but I'm going to hear upcoming. And I'm interested to see what they say. But I think an interesting theory on why maybe some great goalies are coming from over there, is they play against grown men at a very young age. And that doesn't happen in North America.

Whether you're in the U.S. or in Canada, you're playing junior. You're playing major junior. You're playing kids your age or you're playing college, kids your age. Whereas in Sweden and Finland and Russia, a lot of them turn pro very, very young and play in the SHL or the KHL. And they're facing grown men with harder shots, with faster shots that are smarter, that can outthink the goalie better than kids there. age. And I wonder if, like you always hear like iron sharpens iron, I wonder if that has something to do with it. You look at a lot of these goalies coming from Europe and Asia, I guess, if you count Russia, they're playing against older competition. And I think that may be a reason why they're

producing a bunch of goalies. I'm fascinated to see what the goalies say about it. Is there anything for goaltending? Like, we were talking a little bit about how Canada 20, 25 years ago when they weren't having the international success. There was sort of a crisis as far as how they were developing skaters. And it's very easy to imagine a philosophical difference on a skater. Do you let a guy be a skill guy or do you focus on, no, no, we got to be physical. No, no, we got to play the 200-foot game. The defensemen especially, do you say, no, we need a guy, we need traditional guys to clear the front of the net and, you know, make nice simple plays versus do you emphasize the skill and the first pass and all of that stuff? Does that exist for goaltending? Because

to me as an outsider, it's, goal-tending is the simple position. You just stop the puck. But is there, you know, could there be philosophical differences where you, you know, as Canada, for example, you could just say, we got to change the way we think about just how we teach this position and what skills and what components of it were emphasizing that, you know, would maybe lead to you to have more or less success in producing NHL. That's a great question. I haven't talked to enough goalie coaches from other countries.

to really know, but I don't think the, my gut would say no, that there isn't a philosophical difference. I think when you teach goal-tending, a lot of it is geometry. It's box control. And basically what that means is the puck can only, I mean, the puck can only travel to the net in a straight line. You're controlling the box that, uh, where, where you meet the puck, the puck's line from where it is to the net, where you meet that, you've got to control that box where the puck can reach. And basically, it's hard to explain on a podcast without the visual, but it's all geometry and angles and depth. And I feel like most countries are teaching that in the same way. The one thing I would say is a lot of times in practice, the vast majority of a goalie's time in practice is not being spent working on goalie drills, right?

They're just kind of there while the team works on its drills. So I think that how you were just explaining, the way different countries build their skaters could also affect the goleys, even if it's not necessarily the way they're building their goalie. It's just the environment that that goalie is in. And when you think about Russia and you think about some of those other European countries, you don't necessarily think about the greatest defense, right? They play a fast up and down game. There's not a lot of it. It's not hard checking, chipping it into the corners. There's a lot of offense.

And I wonder if maybe these goalies are seeing a lot of high-end offensive plays in practice every day because their team isn't working on defense as much. And maybe that helps them when they come over to North America to compare them to maybe some goalies that aren't facing as high danger of chances because their teams are practicing defense more. I mean, this is just me trying to read between the lines, but I think that may play a factor. It's interesting. Yeah, and you know what? I think there's something like I look forward to, you know,

diving into the Russian angle, as you said, because it just feel like they're a factory right now. And why is that? It's fascinating. Like if Canada played, Sean and I were talking about this earlier. If you had one game to play tonight for Canada, everything's on the line. Boy, you're sitting there thinking,

man, maybe it's Bennington or Kemper because they've won Stanley Cups, and maybe it's Carter Hart because. because he's got the most kind of, I don't know, dynamic feel to him or what, but, but you don't have that feeling that you did 20 years ago where it's, ah, it's Paddy Wah or Bordur or whatever, right? Like, it's, right? It's wild. It's wild. Best on best right now, I don't know who's, who's taking the blue paint for Canada. Meanwhile, I think every country in the world would take Russia's number three, right? I mean, it would be Vasilevsky, Shisterkin, Sorokin?

Yeah, Sorokin, Sorokin might be the third guy. And right now he's the best goalie in the NHL. Fascinating. Yeah. No, that's, hey, look, it's, I think a lot of Canadian fans, even though Canada would have McDavid and McCar, I think there would be a lot of nervousness going into a best-on-best tournament.

Like, 100%. Yeah. Yeah, even with those guys. Hey, Jesse, we wanted to talk to you about, and again, just to further prove this is a Thursday podcast that we're doing on December the 29th. We're going to talk a little bit about that unhinged, Detroit-Pittsburgh game from Wednesday night.

And Pittsburgh's up for nothing. After the first period, they're up for nothing. And you're thinking, okay, they're going to cruise to an easy victory against the Red Wings at home too, right? That game's on home ice at PPG paints. And the Red Wings kind of chip away. They get a couple goals in the second. And so there's only five minutes left, I think, in the third. Pittsburgh's still up by two.

Detroit scores are pair to tie it. Jake Wallman with the fun overtime winner and the celebration. And all of a sudden, the Pittsburgh Penguins blow a four-goal lead on home ice. And there's some trends that we can kind of look at from that game, aren't there? Yeah. So, I mean, the game was fun to watch. I immediately after it, I thought it feels like this is happening way more this year than it has in years past. So I started digging into the numbers.

and I first started looking at just teams records after when trailing going into the third period. And those wins are up a little bit. Teams are winning a little more when trailing after two periods. This year, so far, their points, teams points percentage is 193. They have 64 wins, 318 losses, and 32 overtime losses. So 193, which is the highest it's been in four years. But I kind of expected this to, I expected to go on and say, wow, it hasn't. Teams haven't come back in the third period this many times since 1996.

That's not the case at all. Just in 2019, 20, it was 1-99 for the whole season, so higher than it is right now, which I thought was a little surprising. Am I alone in this? Or did you guys feel like there would be more third period comebacks so far this season than in years past? It definitely, yeah, it feels that way. and I guess I'm maybe a little bit surprised because yeah it does feel like we're getting more of especially the big comebacks right like the three goal and more because I remember there was a time where even even two goals or you know if you were trailing even one goal heading into the third period it was it was done it felt like during the dead puck era that was one of the things that really really.

contributed to why that era was just no fun because, I mean, you'd sit down, your team would be down two nothing, you know, four minutes into the game and the little thing would pop up on the screen. Like, you know, teams records is one in 9,000 and oh, when they're down two goals. And you're like, I guess I can turn this off. There's no point watching anymore. And that feels like it's changed, which has been a great change. That's been absolutely huge for the NHL as far as entertainment that you don't feel like these games are over as soon as one team gets a lead. And in some of these cases, no lead feels safe even until you get well into a game.

So you're actually spot on, Sean, because the next stat I looked at is three plus goal comeback. So comebacks of three or more goals. And there have already been 10 this season. We're about 42% of the way through the season. If you look at most teams games played, so with 10 already this year, that would put you on pace for about 24 by the end of the season, which would be the, I went back pretty far. It'd be the most as far back as I could go. They're on pace to have more three plus goal comebacks than they have in a very, very long time. If you just look at the last 10 years, there have been an average of 15 per season over the last 10 years, 153 plus goal comebacks.

And they've already got 10 and we're not even at the halfway point. So it's definitely happening. One funny one, in 2012, 2013, there were five. in the entire season. And there have already been double that. But that was the shortened season, was it not? Yes, yes, it was. Five in a season is just like, oh my goodness.

I mean, that's, yeah, it just felt like. But still, yeah. And we, I mean, geez, that's, that's like a good week for the Canucks now. Five, uh, blown big lanes. I mean, the Vancouver Canucks are inflating this stat. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

What if we remove the Canucks from the equation? All of a sudden, we're at a record low. It's like, it's like taking Wayne Gretzky. your hockey pool in the 80s. You got to make it fair here. Yeah. Man, that's, yeah. But that's what I like about the explosion of offense this season is that it does make it feel like a two or a multi-goal lead doesn't feel insurmountable.

And like Sean was saying, they're used to always, and for whatever reason I remember, it was the Dallas stars under Ken Hitchcock where it was like, just forget it. The game is over. Like if they're leading after two periods, like it's like, just shut the TV off. It's over. Nobody's coming back on Dallas under Ken Hitchcock, and it doesn't feel that way right now. And it's fun. The other thing I want to ask.

And we should point out, I mean, for fans that are younger, don't remember that era, it wasn't like, you know, it was, it was insurmountable because the team that was up two goals

was going to go out and get a third goal. It was just shut it. I mean, you were sitting there going, I could turn the game off because I'm not going to miss anything interesting. Like there is just nothing is going to happen for the next 40 minutes of this game.

as one team just just bleeds the life out of a two nothing lead. The other thing I want to ask you guys, as we wrap this up here with Granger Things, do you guys find that, like, so Ottawa played their first shootout game of the year on Tuesday against Boston? They didn't have a single shootout all year. And I kind of feel like,

and again, we'd have to look up the numbers on this, but I feel like we're seeing fewer shootouts this year, too, on top of everything else. or maybe that's just me anecdotically because I'm cover Ottawa and they haven't, but it just feels like I'm not seeing as many shootouts. Yeah, I mean, am I right on that? Maybe I'm the opposite because Vegas has been to quite a few. It seems like they can't score in overtime.

So they go to shootout every time. It's a tie at the end of regulation. Yeah, there's a handful of teams pumping it up. Like you look at the, there is no team in the Metro that has had more than two shootouts this year. but then you do get into Vegas and L.A. It's the Pacific. That's doing them all.

Geez, we already let you guys start late. You got to drag these things on. Yeah, we're trying to get to the 2 AM mark over there where you guys are. Oh, smokes, yeah. Maybe is that the story there? Just all the Pacific Division teams are pumping up the shoot up.

There's definitely more in the West. The metro and even the Atlantic is, the Atlantic's got Boston's head five, Montreal's head four, and everyone else is one or two. Detroit's had three now. But it definitely seems to be an east-west thing. And there are a handful of teams.

It's Toronto, New Jersey, Winnipeg, still in the running for the no shootout season. So let's all root for those teams to live the dream. Has any team in the shootout era had a season with no shootouts? You know what? That's a good question. I feel like it has happened. but let me that feels like a potential

storylines to watch in the second half of the year down goes brown it's like it's I mean you almost don't want to talk about it right it's it's like taking a no hitter into the laid into the game in terms of the east west split do you think it might be like when I think of the east I think of

there are some like more high skilled teams Boston Carolina Toronto New Jersey even like Pittsburgh Tampa Washington whereas in the West Colorado's injured. They don't have the same firepower that they normally do. The top teams in the West are like more defensive teams. Dallas and L.A. and Vegas, even Seattle plays really hard for checking game.

I wonder if those teams aren't built to score in three-on-three overtime as easily as some of the top teams in the East. And maybe that's why the split is like it seems like the East teams are finishing their games in overtime. I don't know. Could be. I don't know. Yeah, it's interesting because a lot of times you think of it almost as a, it may be more of a strategic thing, right? Like, I mean, you would expect, you know,

the John Tortorellas of the world are good at getting you into overtime, get that extra point. And then from there, whether you actually get to the shootout or not. Yeah, no, it's interesting. And I'm looking at it up, Ian, and I don't, it looks to me like there is, no, I don't see anyone who has gone the whole year. Oh, the Edmonton Oilers, 2020, 21. But again, shortened season.

Shorten season. Somewhat shorten. Yeah, you're right. Are the only team to make it through an entire season in the shootout era with no shootouts, with the exception, obviously, the three teams that are currently in progress still. So, yeah. You know, maybe that's something to keep an eye on. Once we pass the 56 game mark of the season, because Edmonton got to 56,

without a shootout, maybe that's a thing to keep an eye. On Toronto, Winnipeg. And who is the other team, you said? Toronto, Winnipeg. New Jersey. And New Jersey. Could be interesting. New Jersey's fun to watch in overtime.

Winnipeg's got firepower. And the Leaves, they, I mean, they get scored out 15 seconds into every overtime. So that's their secret superpower there. So they might have the best shot of anyone. Yeah. I expect the same amount of coverage for this streak as the Mitch Marner points. We're going to be all over it. It's absolutely going to be a monster coverage.

down the stretch. Man, there you go. All right, it's a little segment we like to call Granger Things, brought to you by our friends at BetMGM, the exclusive betting partner with the athletic. Jesse Granger, as always, man. Thanks for doing this. Happy New Year, man.

We'll get you again in the first week in 2020, but it's been a great year with you, and I hope you have a great New Year's Eve this weekend. Awesome. Happy New Year's, guys. Thanks for having me. You too, buddy. All right, great stuff with Jesse Granger, as always, and we're going to shift over to the mailbag.

and a reminder you can reach us via email the athletic hockey show at gmail.com or we love to hear your voice, a voicemail. 8454-4-45-8459 and guess what? We have not one but two of voicemails this week. Let's start with Chris in Vegas. And Chris is going to give us some superpowers here, Sean. So let's have a listen to Chris in Vegas. Hey, guys, this is Chris in Vegas.

This is in response to Pierre LeBron's if I were a commissioner for a day column. But for you guys, instead of being commissioner for a day, I'm making you the hockey gods. That's right, the never seen but always believed in spiritual entities responsible for every team's blows, incredible bad luck, and bizarre things that keep us from winning. Pick a random regular season night in the NHL where there are 12 to 15 games being played. Whenever and whatever stakes you want, mid-seeing meaningless or last week of the season with a playoff. off the line. Who's getting goalied by a third string call-up from the AHL despite 75 shots on goal? What controversial play are you going to have

miss that leads to a winning goal? What player will you pick on to have an absolute brain fart and cost his team? And is hockey god down goes brown just going to give every game five offside challenges just to prove his point? Go a little nuts and have some fun with this. Thanks. All right. I got to tell you first of all Sean, I feel like Chris needs his own podcast. Um, that was great. Great delivery. Great. Very. premised. Yeah, polished.

And I like it. Look, but he's telling you, listen, I know Down Goes Brown is just going to do something Toronto related here. He's got me peck. It's absolutely, and it's not just Toronto, it's the fact that I would use these powers for chaos

and to prove points more so than, I mean, look, we all want, we want to see Connor McDavid get 10 points. We want to, we want to see a shootout go to, you know, You know, 20 rounds deep. Fun stuff like that. But yeah, no, he's got me on the offside review.

I would definitely, in fact, I would have loved to have seen last week when Alexander Ovechkin was chasing history, let him score an amazing highlight real goal to pass Gordie Howe. And then have it reviewed on a 15-minute review and taken off the board. Hopefully that would be something that would be dumb enough that we would actually you know, maybe fix something. I'd also, by the same token, I would love to see a game where two teams in the same division, fighting for a playoff spot,

tied with 10 or 15 minutes left in the third period and just shut it down completely. Just, you know, Simpson's soccer mode where it's just, you know, just batting the puck around and neutralize. And then have the coach come at the end and go, yeah, of course, man. The point system incentivizes us to get to overtime. So we're going to get to overtime. And that's why we didn't even try to score in the third period.

Really embarrassed the league with some. of these stupid rules. I think that's, that's what I would be looking for, which is why it's good that I don't have these powers, because I can't be trusted to use them for good. Yeah, you're going to waste them on like, you know, a lot of snark here. You got a lot of... I'm not wasting them. I'm making an investment. You know what? Somebody scoring six goals would be cool, but it's going to be forgotten in a couple of years, whereas this is, I'm laying the foundation to get rid of some very dumb stuff in this league. And I'm sacrificing my own entertainment value for you, for you guys out there to get rid of some of these idiotic rules.

You know, forget Simpson's soccer mode. All you would need is remember when Chris Pronger wouldn't take the puck out of his own zone against Guy Boucher's lightning? That's what I'm looking. That's the one three one. Let's see it happen. Oh, man. I thought you were going to do something with puck over glass.

You know, that's another one. That's a hockey. You're a hockey god. You can do one thing. Yeah. Puck over class. Let's do that. Yeah, no, that could be a real good one too.

We could do them all. I mean, geez, I might need more than one night. I might run out of games to conduct my mad scientist experiments on just to constantly, just to prove points to Gary Batman and friends. You know, if I could do one thing right now as a hockey guide, I really feel for the people of Buffalo. and that snowstorm that just, I mean, I couldn't. And look, I'm speaking as a Canadian,

I couldn't believe the amount of snow that fell in Buffalo. And I see that the anger that that franchises put, like the fan base has just been through so much. If I had the one wish, wouldn't, man, wouldn't you love to see the Buffalo Sabres with Tage Thompson and Rasmus Dalin? Like they seem like a fun, likable group. Wouldn't you love to just sprinkle

a little, just a touch of fairy dust on them to go on some. I was going to say, like, what magic carpet ride and it's getting the playoffs? What magic are we wishing for for Sabers fans? Are we going to wish that, like, I don't know, some career fourth liner magically transforms into the most dynamic and entertaining player in the entire league. It just becomes unstoppable. Man, we're going to find out something to happen there. I don't know.

I want to know what, like, magic elixir, some, some fan brewed up and slipped to page Thompson. Yeah. Yeah, this is, there's going to be a superhero origin story somewhere we're going to find out about with these guys. Okay, so that's anyway, that's what we would do with our superpowers. I'd love to hear what our listeners would do again, the athletic hockey show at gmail.com. If you want to tell us what you would do superpower wise or if you were the hockey gods. We got another call here.

This one is an unknown caller from Ann Arbor, Michigan. And it's a very simple question. I'm not going to say that this caller should have a podcast like Chris in Vegas, because Chris in Vegas was kind of long in detail. This is short and to the point. Here's the unknown caller from Ann Arbor. At this point, with all the moves that Ken Holland has made incorrectly, who leaves Edmonton first?

Ken Holland or Connor McDavid? Love the show, guys. Take it easy. All right. They're very simple. Look, Connor McDavid is signed through the 2026 season, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, 2025, 2026. Connor McDavid, that's the last year of his deal.

Could theoretically be a free agent in summer of 2020. his question is who who leaves Edmonton first, Ken Holland or Conno McDavid. Now, to me, the answer would simply be Ken Holland, would it not? Like, yeah, I... Well, the only thing that gives me pause here is, you know, if the question is who leaves, who leaves Edmonton first versus is Ken Holland still the GM when Connerick Dave leaves? Because here's the thing, Ken Holland has been around forever. He's got the cup rings.

He's kind of a maid man is as, as a... far as the 200 hockey men. And I think that the scenario that is more likely to play out, rather than Ken Holland gets fired in Edmonton, is Ken Holland gets nudged upstairs. He becomes the president. He becomes whatever else it is.

And somebody else comes in as the GM. So I would be very, put it this way. If at any point, Connery David gives you any indication at all that it's him or the GM, and I got all the respect in the world, for Ken Holland. You don't even wait until that sentence is out of his mouth to make the decision.

It's, you know, yes, sir, Mr. McDavid, you will never have to see Ken Holland again. Don't worry about it. We will take care of it. Is there anything else we can do for you? I still don't think, look, as much as every other fan base loves to dream about Connor McDavid leaving Edmonton. And why wouldn't we? He's such a phenomenal talent.

I mean, you can't help, but dream am showing up on your team somehow, some way. it's unlikely. It's just, it certainly doesn't really seem in his nature to force his way out. It's, that's really not a thing that happens in the NHL to the extent that it used to. Used to happen all the time. But post-lockout world really, really isn't a thing. You know, I think by far the most likely scenario is in 2025, the year before his contract ends, he signs a great big extension and continues on in Edmonton.

and, you know, that's just kind of the nature of most star players in this league. And, you know, maybe he throws us a curveball, but as far as the most likely scenario, it remains that Carter McDavid will do the same thing that Mary Lemieux and Steve Eisenman and Joe Sackick and a whole bunch of other great players did, which is play his whole career for one team and not go anywhere. Yeah, and Mike Madano and Daniel Alpherson. Yeah, well, yeah. No, maybe not so much.

Not so much. Okay. Back to the emails. Connor McDavid to Detroit. Wow. Breaking news from Ian Mendez. There we go. That's interesting.

Okay. Yeah. Oh, back to the, we'll do a couple of emails here. Carrie writes into the show. And last week we were talking about, because I was, you know,

and look, it turned out not to come to fruition. I said, look, I got to cover the game. Alex Ovechkin has a chance to tie Gordy Howe in Ottawa. It didn't happen that night. He did it the next night against Winnipeg.

But I said, have you ever just as a fan randomly been to a game and something cool happened or some historic event or milestone. How about this email from Kerry, who writes in to the athletic hockey show at gmail.com, Kerry says, I've been lucky to be a hockey fan my entire life. As a child, my dad had front row tickets. They were four bucks each at Madison Square Garden to watch the Rangers. My first game ever, I saw Willio replay with the Boston Bruins.

In 1962, I saw Gordy Howe scored his 500th career goal. That same season, I saw Bobby Hull score number 50, and I believe that was only the second time it was ever done in NHL history. I later converted to being a Devils fan. I was there when Patrick Sundstrom scored eight points in a single playoff game in the 88 playoffs. I was there for the infamous Yellow Jersey Yellow Sunday No Ref game. I most recently attended Marty Brodoer's 552nd career win.

Patrick Eliash breaking franchise scoring record on the same day. I also saw OV score his 700th career goal. That's from Kerry. Hey, Sean, remind me you and I need to catch a game with Kerry. Yeah. At some point. Carrie Gump here is just the just bumbling their way through history

showed up at every, yeah. This is a promotional opportunity for some NHL teams out there. Bring Kerry to the game. Guaranteed history night. Carry will be in attendance. And you know something cool is going to happen. I would make that happen. One more from Grant who says, look, recently Alex Ovechkin just passed Ray Bork

by getting his 6,210th shot on goal. So now Alex Ovechkin, the all-time shot leader, passing Raymond Bork, Grant says, look, Bork famously held the record. Is there a reason why he had so many shots? I mean, was Boston just running an exceptionally point shot heavy offense? Like, how can you guys explain Ray Bork's shot record that he had until last week? That's from Grant. It's that Ray Bork was phenomenal player.

Ray Bork was truly, I don't even know how it's possible to say this, given the accolades. that Ray Bork accumulating his career, but Ray Bork is now underrated historically. I'm adamant on this. And in fact, we're in the process of doing our NHL-99 series. I've got Ray Bork coming up, and I get to write about this.

He was just such a phenomenal player for such a long time. And, you know, he was fantastic. He famously had an incredibly accurate shot. Yeah. went four for four in the in in the skills competition um and so you know they fed him a lot it wasn't like there there was you know Boston was running some sort of unique offense where where everything was going through him above and beyond the fact that he was just the the best player on the ice virtually every single night um and he always hit the puck even back when we didn't

uh you know fully appreciate that you know this was before the possession era where uh you know we didn't think of the game that way, but he always had the puck because he was the best player. And also back then, defenseman shooting and, you know, the slap shot from the point was much more of a of a play for every team than it is than it is these days where it's more of a rarity.

And it could work. The little tiny goalies of that era, you could actually score them from a distance there. So it was a perfect storm of all sorts of things, but no, it wasn't some weird strategic thing. It was just that this guy was absolutely amazing. He couldn't get the puck away from him. And, you know, whenever he did get the puck, he didn't just get it at the net.

He got it on the net. And two more follow-up points there on Ray Borg. Ovechkin just passed him for the all-time shot record, most shots ever in a career. But there's two records that Ray Bork has shot-related that I don't think will be broken. One is 19 shots in a single game. The night you talk about tiny goalies of the 90s. He had 19 shots on Ron Tugnut. The night Tugnut made 70 saves for Quebec.

Bork had 19 on his own in one game. That I don't think will be broken. So just imagine one player has 20 shots on goal in a game. I just don't see it happening. And then the other record that Borg has shot-related, he holds the consecutive game streak for most games in a row with a shot on goal, which is 360 games in a row. And Ovechkin, I think at one point in his career,

got to like 310 or 315 and then had a game that was obviously didn't have a shot. And then the clock starts at zero again. And 360 games in a row with a shot on goal for a defenseman. And so I just don't know that that will be broken. If Ovechkin didn't break it or come close to it, I don't know how somebody else does, right? Yeah, no, I don't know that we'll ever see anyone who shoots like Ovechkin again. I mean, it really is.

When you're talking about shot, it's Bork, it's Ovechkin, and it's Phil Esposito, are the three guys. And maybe we'll see it again at some point. But it's hard to imagine in today's NHL, you know, the fact that Ovechkin's doing it is phenomenal. It's hard to imagine someone else coming along being able to put up numbers like that. Wrapping it up like we always do with a little this week in hockey history. And today, December the 29th, is the anniversary of the... I was intrigued by this, and I did a little bit of research on this.

December 29th, 195. This was the first time ever in an NHL game. It was at the old Montreal forum, the haves and leaps were playing. First time ever that the referees in an NHL game, Sean, wore black and white striped jerseys. Before that. So I didn't know this, okay? So I looked this up because I had seen, you know, old pictures or whatever. But before that, NHL referees were a cream-colored, like, sweater.

Like, and, and, but underneath it for many years was a shirt and tie. It was a, they wore a tie. And we need to bring that back, right? Yes. So here's, here's my question. We see NHL teams do throwback jerseys, reverse retros. Would you not be interested in a game in which NHL referees went old school? Obviously, you could update the, you know, you don't have to wear probably the heavy.

wool that they wore like in the 1930. Yes, you do. You absolutely do. We're going full old school. You see Wes McCauley's dripping sweat? Look, man, we started off talking about, you know, how Sheldon Keith getting fined. I'm just saying, West McCauley, you guys, you guys wouldn't be getting yelled at if you wore a tie to the games. You maybe get a little bit more respect. Yes. If you dressed for the respect, you know, you got to really. Just for the job you want. Exactly. I think this is it. And. you know, even let's put a little, a little bowler hat on some of these guys. I feel like I may have been to look for some of these refs. Let's do it.

Maybe this is how we get to get these guys back out there. Let's do it. Reverse retro for the officials. Right. But like just like, you know, for like an original six game. So like Chicago's at Boston or something and they're like just old school. One game. Put them back so that people can understand like, wow, that's what referees used to look like back in the day.

there you go yeah and and also we have the short little glass so that the if they make a call you don't like the fans could just reach down and throw punches like they did back in the day yeah you know it would be great be real funny when you see the footage of all the like people used to throw like rotten tomatoes like people just used to have yeah you know spoiled vegetables with you just for whatever reason spoiled vegetables in your pocket just in case and uh yeah you could absolutely do it yeah and this rotten turn up this will show you um okay and one other one December 31, we're talking about New Year's Eve games before. December 31st, 1975, the Montreal Canadiens who would go on to win the Stanley Cup that

year, played the Soviet Red Army at the Montreal Forum, December 31st, New Year's Eve. They played to a three-three tie in a game in which, if you talk to people of a certain generation, like, when I was growing up, I was too young, I wasn't born for this, but people would always say that was the greatest hockey game ever played. Habs, Red Army, New Year's Eve, 3-3 tie. But here's what I think is interesting. Do you think if analytics were around that they would have just obliterated that game and been like, the Red Army got outshot 39 to 13, expected goals were this and that.

Like, people would have taken away and said, this isn't the greatest game of all time. It was just lopsided. Analytics draining the fun out of something in sports. No, I can't imagine. Have you ever watched that whole game? Like, have you ever sat down? The whole game, I don't think so. I think I've watched like, like, you know, the highlights of it.

Because Trecciac was the guy that put on a one-man show. But do you think that that couldn't, like, really, like, people would always say, right, that was the greatest game ever played? Yeah, you always, that was the answer that would come out. And, you know, look, it was obviously a phenomenal matchup, the Montreal, Canadians about to embark on a dynasty. And you had the, the element of the unknown and, uh, you know, to do it on New Year's Eve and everything. It really was fantastic.

And, you know, it's, you know, what's fascinating is it's, you know, you talk about greatest game ever. I mean, there have been some great games played in November in the regular season and nobody remembers them. This was a game that was both completely meaningless as far as any standings or, you know, anything. It was an exhibition game. And yet meant everything because it was these, these two worlds kind of crossing over

in a game. It was fantastic. The only downside of this game is that not only was it all considered one of the greatest games ever, but also for the longest time, if you ever had the audacity to put your hand up and say, you know, I don't really like that there's so many ties in the NHL. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Somebody would always come roaring. Oh, you don't like ties. Well, the greatest game ever was a tie. And you're sitting there going, well, yeah, maybe that's the exception to the proofs the rule, because I'm talking about like, you know, I just saw Hartford, Ty, New Jersey, and it wasn't all that entertaining. But this was the go-to for the very old-school pro-tie brigade.

Probably still is to this day. Okay. Was there, and I'm asking this legitimately, I have no idea. Was there overtime in that? Not if they were playing NHL rules. Because overtime, there was no overtime back then. They didn't come back till 83. So I'm going to assume there was no overtime.

It was just 60 minutes and that's that. Yeah. Like because it was an exhibition, you would have, maybe they would have said to each other like, hey, maybe we need to play this out. Yeah. I mean, you would have thought, but I mean, overtime wasn't real. I don't know what the rules would have been in Russia at the time. But, you know, famously when at the summit series, there was no overtime. There were ties and it was, you know, 60 minutes. And if Paul Anderson hadn't scored, the Soviets were going to claim victory in game eight there. So I would have. imagine it would have been the same, the same rules. Because, you know, at that point, not only was there no overtime in the NHL, but, you know, in the regular season that there hadn't been in decades. So it maybe would have, you would have loved to have thought that they would have said, hey, let's just go sudden death. But clearly, clearly not. All right.

Hey, listen, we'll leave it there. And look, we came into this saying, look, there's nothing to talk about on this week between Christmas and New Year. And look, we just knocked off an hour in change. And it was just flew by. So that was great. Listen, I want to thank our listeners for, you know, sticking with us all year here in 2022. We had a lot of fun on the athletic hockey show.

And, you know, you got big plans for New Year's Eve or what? Absolutely not. No, I'm going to be looking for. Now that you've told me that there's hockey, I'm going to be sitting at home. Sitting there and watching the game and probably falling asleep at about 10.30. Yeah, that sounds about right. All right. We'll leave it there.

And I want to thank everybody for listening. And yeah, all year long, we wish all of our listeners here on The Athletic Hockey Show. I wish you a happy New Year. We'll get you again on the other side of the calendar. And as always, you can email us. Your questions to the Athletic Hockey Show at gmail.com leave us a voicemail. At 845, 4458, 459. And right now you can get a one-year subscription to The Athletic for $2 a month when you visit

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