The Athletic Hockey Show - U18 Five Nations Tournament recap, U17 Hockey Challenge notebook, listener questions, and more

Episode Date: November 11, 2022

On a brand new Prospect Series episode of The Athletic Hockey Show, Max Bultman, Corey Pronman, and FloHockey’s Chris Peters sit down together in Detroit to give their thoughts on the 2022 Under-18 Five Nations tournament, the World Under-17 Hockey Challenge, and wrap things up with a bunch of listener questions in the mailbag.Get a 6 month subscription to The Athletic for just $1 a month when you visit http://theathletic.com/hockeyshowSubscribe to The Athletic Hockey Show on YouTube: http://youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. Hey, everybody. Max Bolman here alongside Corey Pronman and Chris Peters of Flow Hockey. Back with another episode of the Athletic Hockey Show's prospect series. Our first one, gentlemen, all three in person. We are here in Metro Detroit for the U-18 Five Nations tournament. It's very good to do one of these in person. Yeah, it's just nice to be in the same room to be, I mean, I don't have to talk over Corey. I can just look at him and give him the death stare right to his eye.

And that seems to work. We'll see if it holds up over the course of the episode. For you, the context for our readers, we are in my very tiny hotel room right now. It's a little too cozy with the three of us, but we're making it work. It's like, you know, some male bonding time. And I think people can guess, Corey did take the one individual seed. Chris and I are couching it right now. We are totally couching it and I've never felt better.

It was very comfortable couch, very sturdy. And this is a palatial. It looks like it was kind of made in 1940 though. It is. It's pretty old. It's a little lumpy. I probably should be sitting on this bonus cushion. There you go.

There it is. Now I'm the tallest one. Guys, you guys have both been following. Corey, you were at the U-17 challenge in British Columbia before you came here. And I want to start there. Just sequentially, I think it makes sense. A lot of stuff going on. Next year's draft class.

to kind of come into view. I know you put out your way too early 2024 ranking. Let's start with one of the biggest names from that class, Macklin Celebrini. Yeah, and Celebrini, he's been good in that tournament. You know, obviously had that one highlight real goal that made its way around the internet and had pretty good moments in the tournament. But I wouldn't say it's been his best tournament. I think why he's number one is what you've seen him do in the USHL so far this season. I mean, and in past performances I've seen in him in two. This is a really well-rounded player. high-end skill, offensive creativity. He skates well.

His motor is really impressive. I was talking with some scouts at the challenge. And since then, I think you can kind of see some similarities to how like a Nico Hesha type prospect look when he went first overall. Like that really well-rounded centerman. And he looks like a very impressive prospect. And what he's doing in the USHL right now for a 16-year-old, it's pretty rare. Yeah, it's very rare. I mean, as of right now, I think he's ahead of where Adam Fantilli was at the same age in terms of his production.

And, you know, I think as of right now, the thing that Macklin's a little bit more physically developed than some of his peers, he's got that strength factor. There's some good burst. You know, he can make plays and all those different things. But the thing that I think stood out to me in the games that I did watch of him at the Under 17 challenge was that he just seemed, you know, more prepared than anybody in terms of. of his overall approach to the game, the way he was playing, how hard he was playing, the competitiveness that he played with. And then also, you know, he had that big moment where he had the viral goal that you can see on my Twitter feed, shameless plug.

But, yeah. Yeah, like I said, he looked to me like the best 06, that's 24 eligible. But I thought what was a theme for me when I was at that tournament is he might be the best 06, that's 24 eligible, but there's some really good late birth dates that will be eligible in 2025. I mean, James Higgins, I'm not saying he's as good as Jack Hughes was at the same age, but there's some rhymes there. Roger McQueen looked excellent. Porter Martoni looked excellent. Logan Hensler and Dakota Rayle Mullen are both really good late birthday defensemen on that, on that 06 USA team. There's some really, there's going to be some high-end guys that are late 06s

is going into the 25 draft. Yeah, no question. I mean, Hagen's has 16 points right now, which is actually ahead of where Jack Hughes scored at the same event. And you look at the way that he makes the place. He's scoring goals and he's got the assist. It's kind of a nice balance for him right now. He's shown last night we were watching the game and he peels off the boards and just a short, a short side snipe that, you know,

didn't have much room to get the shot through. And then, you know, he just plays so well. You know, he's the guy 2024 is Cole Eiserman who he's playing with and he's scoring a ton of the goals. But, I mean, Higgins is just the speed. the vision, the, the creativity that he has. I mean, everything is a perfect pass, it seems. Yeah, all those attributes, the skating, particularly his skill in his brain are elite.

What I like to battle when I watch him is, is the work ethic is really strong to. Like, he's, he's 5'10, but he was throwing his weight around. He's winning battles. He's digging in there in the traffic areas. And, you know, I think Isman's the same way, too. Those two guys don't lack sides, but, man, they're really good hockey players. Yeah, and the two of them together have outscored Hughes and Caulfield, who had one of the greatest duo performances in that tournament's history.

And, you know, to see two guys, and they've only been playing together for, you know, basically a month and a half. And they look like they played together for years and years. Basically, anybody and Charlie Perdue has been the guy that's gotten to play with them a lot. What a great thing to have to be, you know, he's played well. You've got to be a good player to kind of be the, third wheel on that line too. But those two guys are just operating on another level.

They've doubled up scoring on, I think they're twice as many points as anybody that's even close to them. So pretty remarkable. One of the things that stood out to me, Corey, scrolling through your 2024 list, this 2023 class, we've all been a little nervous. Where are these defensemen going to come from? That does not look like it's going to be the case in 2024. No.

And I think there are defensemen coming in 2023, but not of the national that we're seeing with the 24 class. Well, starting with the 06s that were there, Sam Dickinson and Charlie Ellick looked like two big, mobile defensemen with who will have good enough offense. Maybe Dickinson is a little bit more offense than Alec. ELEC may be a little bit better defensively, but both excellent players.

Obviously, I have Aaron Kippa Hardew, who's with the under 20 team right now, pushing to make Finland's World Junior team. It's a 16-year-old. USA's got some really good defensemen. Will Schahan's excellent. E.J. Emery's, excellent. And then on the late birth,

they arguably the best defenseman in that draft, at least my opinion is the best defenseman in the draft, is Art Timloff Shunov, who I think Chris just saw him last week. He's off to a crazy start in the U.S.HL. He is, yeah, the game that I went to, he's playing at Cedar Rapids. He had five points in the game,

two goals, three assists, dangling guys at the blue line. He plays physically. He had some good body checks. He's strong. He's big. Skates well. Skates very well.

And just to see the maturity that he plays with at his age. And this is a guy that was playing Belarusian U18 last year. It's not the jump from that to the USHL is gigantic. And he managed it beautifully. And also now he's the second leading score in the USHL among defensemen. He just turned 17 late October. So he's physically advanced.

His brain is very, you know, he's got great hockey sense. But man, he is so confident on the puck. And certainly one of, you know, I saw Owen Power play in that league. in his draft minus one year. And I was feeling like, wow, this guy is on that. He's on that plane. He really is. I don't think it's hyperbolic to say that.

I think he is, especially this early in the season, that was a special performance. I obviously got to see his best game in the season to date. But other games that I've watched of him, he is a factor in every game he plays. We were talking about it at the U18 Five Nations the other day, Chris. I mean, what would it mean for the USHL to produce another, you know, defenseman of this caliber? I mean, power goes to college. college obviously in his draft year, but still produced him. Either you guys can weigh in on this.

What would this mean? Well, also, if you look at the one thing I noticed when I was kind of making, making that early list is the USHL presence at the top. Yeah. Celebrating one, left shootoff two, Iserman three. Doesn't mean that's how it's going to go a year and a half from now. A lot's going to change. But early on, it looks like the USHL has a very strong presence at the top of that draft class.

Very much so. And this has been a trend. We're starting to see more younger players come to the USHL. Adam Fantilli obviously was, you know, a late birthday who wasn't going to be in the league during his draft year. But, you know, Owen Power, same thing. And then you've got all the, obviously having the NTP there really boosts the numbers, but you're seeing it with the other teams. We saw Andre Svetnikov playing Muskegon. Ivan Maraschashenko was actually supposed to play in Muskegon.

Couldn't get the visa figured out, but that would have been another high, high profile player. I think what the USHL is proving is that if you are a 16-year-old player that is of an elite caliber, you're going to have a place to play. It's going to challenge you. to be able to play a pretty high level of hockey, and it's going to be very competitive for you, and it's going to help push your development to the next level. And I think with with Shunov, what's going to be interesting is where he plays next season, because I think in a traditional setting, he probably follows on Ivan Proveroff path, where he plays U.S.HL, Cedar Rapids, I believe when he was 16, and then he went to Brand in the Western League

when he was 17. Currently, Belarusians, which he is, are not allowed to play in the Canadian Hockey League. So it begs the question, does he play? is can he go to the Canadian Hockey League next season? Does he go back to the U.S.HL? Does he go to Europe? I can't even imagine a way he gets to college right away. But it'll be interesting to see what path he takes next season.

Yeah, I agree. And I just wanted to that point. So Lev Shunov is a really interesting case. But I think we look at Cole Sillinger came back. He had to play in the U.S.HL because the W.HL was kind of shut down. He comes back. He's still a first overall or a first round pick and plays in the NHL the next season. there is a pat like that was not common jack hughes did it then then sillinger did it so there is the potential

even if he's not you know even if say he gets real comfortable in greed bay likes what he's doing he's got a good coach there mike leone you know maybe things work out well for him i mean there's a chance that he could stay even if bellerussians are allowed to play in the CHO he'd to go up on a tangent but we're doing a podcast so why not what is going to happen with colesilinger this season you think because like he's not playing very well right now. And I believe, so usually when a guy dropped out of the USHL, he would be able to send to the American League. I believe, though, when he was drafted,

the rule said he's a medicine hat draft. So they can't send him to the American League. He's got a play in Columbus or go back to the WHL. That's a really unique situation right now for a guy who has something like 100 NHL game experience already. Yeah, that is

bizarre. And I think you're right, because I'm pretty sure it had to be a loan, a mutual agreed to loan that he would have to go back to Medicine Hat at some point if he didn't make the NHL. So yeah, so that's a very different situation. And because of the player agreements in the CHL, those are binding. So that's interesting. And maybe kind of a part of a case for Lev Shunov to stay in the USHL because eventually

he then, you know, if you're drafted out of the CHL, you are subject to that agreement. If you were drafted out of the USHL, you can go to the AHL. Yeah, that was a point that actually somebody made to me as well is that Lefshunov is at the level where potentially the next best step for him after was to go stay in the USHL, be AHL eligible, and potentially go from the U.S.HL to the AHL. It's actually something Zemgus Gergensons did when he was actually supposed to go to Vermont, but he ended up going to the HL. I mean, he's been a long-term NHL or, you know, is he, he might not produce like a first rounder,

but he's been a Buffalo Sabre for the better part of the last decade, you know, so there is a, there is a case to be made that Lev Shuno's best path is to remain in the U.S.HL. One more guy from the 2025 draft I want to touch on, Corey, is Michael Mesa, who I think fans are pretty aware. If his name has been out there, obviously, with the exceptional status. What have you seen from him? Yeah, he was really good there at the U-17 challenge. They had a line of there, of him, Berkeley Cadden, who I think will be a top pick in the 2024 draft.

He was the number one pick in the WHL Bannum draft in his respective age group, and Porter Martoni, who I also highlighted as one of those top Lato Sixes. Mesa is a tremendous skater, a ton of skill and individual creativity. He's a great player. He's not the biggest guy, but neither is Hagen's. They're both small, really dynamic players. Misa's kind of been on the wing, though, at that tournament. Haynes is the center, is Mesa for sure an NHL center?

That could be maybe a little bit of a debate going forward. He's been on and off, but he's with being a center of Saginaa, although he's only 15 years old, so I kind of presume at some point they'll move him to the middle full time. But no, he's a great player. And the one of the play I would think people should know about from 24 is Ivan Demadov. A small winger playing in Russia, but he's putting up outstanding numbers, similar production at the same age to Mape Mitzkov, just elite skills and scoring ability.

And we'll see, and because of the scala organization, we'll see where we are with him this time next year. But he's a guy people should know a lot of that. All right, let's go now, guys, to the tournament that we were all at this week. You guys more so than I was with the Red Wings on a homestand, but I made it out to a couple couple games, the U-18, Five Nations in Plymouth. And the story coming out of it, at least from my standpoint, was USA's big guys looked like USA's big guys. Absolutely. Their top line is centered Will Smith, and they've got Ryan Leonard, and you've got Gabe Perot. And they're all on the same line. We're talking about two high, high-end elite thinkers of the game in terms

of Will Smith and Gabe Perot. They have great vision. Then you've got a little bit more of the Bron in Ryan Leonard, who can play a strong game, but tremendous skill as well, scored the goal of the tournament so far and a high-end goal score. So he thinks the game at a high level as well. It's just that he thinks a little differently than the other two guys. And they have been as dominant as I've seen a U.S. line in any international tournament. I mean, they have just absolutely own this thing. Yeah, I mean, they look like the Harlem Globetrotters out there. Some of the creative stuff that Smith was trying, same thing with Perrault. They just vibe off each other so well. I agree with Chris. This might be the best USA line I've seen since

Jack Eichol, Sunny Milano and Alex Tuck. Maybe not the best in terms of overall talent. You know, obviously any line that had Jack Hughes and Cole Cawfield on it, for example, would have been better. But in terms of the way these three guys vibe off each other and some of the Tick-Tac plays they were making, which was just so impressive. And, you know, we'll see what happens when, as a year progresses, when we get to, you know, see, you know, those full age groups, all the best players are here. Some of them are trying out for the World Junior teams right now. And we get to a Canadian U-18 team.

But this has been a very impressive group. And I think that first line is really impressive. Oliver Moore's really impressive too. This team's going to get a lot better. Because I think that USA-06 group, as we've mentioned before, has a ton of really good players. And I think you're going to see four, five, six of them on this 05 team by the second half of the season.

Yeah, I wouldn't disagree with that. A couple of the guys that stood out to me in the game against 15. I mean, obviously they score seven goals, right? But Ryan Leonard, I think you think of him as kind of the gritty piece of that top line, right? He has this end-to-end goal where he goes coast to coast, turns two defenders inside out and scores. And Oliver Moore is a guy who I think you always know the speed stands out. There was a goal he scored, Corey, that, you know, he takes it the length of the ice wraps it around. And I kind of look back at you as like a wow.

He also unleashed just a fantastic shot a few minutes later. And that was something, you look at him and he, in production, trails that top line a little bit. I think he's got every bit the talent of those three. His skating is awesome. It's the same caliber of skating as when the Hughes brothers were with Team USA. It's game-breaking skating ability. And if he was on that line, you take out Leonard, take out Perrault, you put him in there. He would have, his numbers aren't great right now, but you put him on that line.

Put on that top power play. That guy has so much ability. He'd be lighting it up. And I think you could see a scenario where James Hagen's and Cole Eiserman is on his line at some point in the second half of the season. And I don't doubt that those three would score a couple of goals. And, you know, I've talked to NHL people here who think Moore could be a top 20 pick, top 15 pick. Don't let his numbers fool you. This guy is a really impressive player.

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, one thing that I noticed from last year to this year, he's gotten a lot stronger. I think one of the knocks on him was that he wasn't a very strong, wasn't hard enough on bucks. It wasn't, now he's got the speed and some strength, too. He's not, he's still not a big guy. but he is much stronger than he was last season. And that strength training that he's done, it's made him a better skater even.

He's got even more explosiveness this year. I think when we saw that wrap around goal that you talked about, I mean, that's as good an outside burst as you're ever going to see. And really, I think he's taking his game to another level. He thinks it as fast as he plays it. And that's the other thing. You have to be able to manage that. So I think that what he's done,

especially as a second line guy, where he doesn't have necessarily the, he's got good players around him, but not the level that Will Smith does. It's pretty impressive. Are we concerned about USA's Blue Line at all? See, it's a very interesting thing because they, certainly over the years, the Blue Line, there's always that one guy at least, that, you know, there's the Jake Sanderson, there's the Luke Hughes.

There's somebody like that that is going to be a high, high-end guy. I don't think they have that this year. They have some good skaters. They have, you know, they have some guys that can play. But it's certainly, you know, you're not going to hear a lot of. USA and that's kind of that's a lot of this draft class. There's just not a lot of D in this age group.

Yeah. I mean, I like Fisher. I think Brady Cleveland's good. Yes. Zee Boy will be a nice player in the following draft. I mean, I like Cleveland. He's big, mobile, physical, but as a shutdown guy, he hasn't been very shutdown-ish in this tournament.

And he just, maybe just an off day or two. He's, I think he's a good player. But, you know, you know, it's hard not to watch that 06 group and seeing, oh, man, Ska-hand's really good. memory is really good. Dakota Rayle Mullen's pretty good and thinking, oh, even Cole Hudson could be, is really good already down there. I'm thinking they could use like three or four of these guys essentially. Is it too much to ask for it to think the UAT? You talked about the potential of Hagen's and I as are being called up later in the year. You think it's too much to ask for a D

that young to come up and make an impact with the 18 team? No. Yeah, not at all. And I think that in previous years, I remember when I was actually working at the NTP, I think we shifted an entire blue line, not an entire, like three or four young guys came up from the age group. It was like John Merrill and, you know, guys like that that we had to bring in to help boost that blue line. And, you know, and that's the way that it goes. And I think, as Corey mentioned, you know, there's some other elements too. You get a guy like Scahan who has the size and the physicality factor. You've got Hudson, who is as good a puck mover as anybody on the current team. One guy that we didn't talk about in this age group that I think has had a good Five Nations tournament in

particular is Aaron Menetian. You know, and it's again, he's not, is he a high-end draft pick? Probably not, but he's a guy that will get drafted. He's got good skating ability and things like that. But to Corey's point, you know, you have, and the tough part about being at the NTDP is you have tough decisions to make with guys that have made the commitment to be there for two years. And so you don't make those decisions lightly and you don't just make them to make them,

but you do take the best team possible. USA hasn't won gold in the last few years. So there's a little bit more pressure this year to find a way to win that tournament. You look at the 2001-age group, that loaded O'1 age group, and when the 2000s were going to the 18s, it was kind of the same situation as the O-5s where they had three to five really good players, and there was a steep drop-off after that. And then you saw them bring up Jack Hughes, Cole Caulfield, Alex Turr, caught Cam, York, and Spencer Knight to all play prominent roles on that team. So I don't think it's unprecedented. We can see that that kind of makeshift with his age group. Absolutely.

How about Team Sweden? I mean, this is probably the next most talented team with the tournament after the Americans. A couple bigger names, you know, Otto Stenberg and Noah Dover-Nelson. What did you see out of team Sweden over the course of the week? So, a couple of games left.

So it's really interesting when you talk about Stenberg and Dower-Nielsen because if you just do a quick Google search of the two of them, you would think Dower Nielsen is four times the player Stenberg is, based on just what they're doing with their J-20 team. I think Dower Nielsen's scoring nearly two points a game with Rolanda's J-20 team. And on the same J-20 team,

Stenberg's like, I think he's got like nine points this year and 15 games or something like that. It's a very underwhelming number. If you would have seen them with a polinka team, and then here at this November tournament, you'd be like, oh, wait, no, Stenberg's the guy. What are you talking about? And not like that, Alan Nielsen hasn't looked impressive.

I think he's looked quite impressive here. His skill's really high in, but Stenberg just buzzes whenever he's out there. So competitive and fast, he's showing pretty good skill to scoring ability, a really nice goal he scored on Thursday. Yeah, I think both of them will look impressive, but it's really interesting,

comparing how they've looked internationally to how they've looked with their club teams. Yeah, and that's part of the tough part of evaluating as well is when you see them in those settings and maybe it's just a better fit one place than the other. You got to, you know, that's why we watch the games to continue to try to get the context of that. But I agree. I think Stenberg, you know, his skating ability, the skill that he's shown, he's getting inside a lot more now too. I think that he can, at times when he's not going, he's a little bit more perimeter.

When he's going, he's getting to the middle. He's getting inside. He's diving in there. he's got the speed. And yeah, he scored a one-time goal last minute of the game where they needed a win against Finland. And he was out there and he scored that goal. And yeah, it's to me, I think that, you know, I had Stenberg ahead already. And I think a lot of it is based on the international play.

I am underwhelmed by his, his, is, his 20 numbers at the moment. But I think, you know, total package of skills, he's got a little bit more. But it's an interesting team. They do have some other players as well. You know, Noel Nord is a guy that I was high on coming into the tournament. He's kind of underwhelming a little bit here. He's a big guy with some skill, but he hasn't made enough of an impact. Skating is kind of an issue, right?

And skating is an issue there, absolutely, you know, which can be with the bigger players. And then Axel Sandine Pelico, who actually got an A rating from Central Scouting, very good skater, top power play guys putting up some points here. He's already played seven games in the SHL this season. He's getting stronger, better, more mature. he'll be an interesting player as well down the line. DeBay I was having with a scout at the game today about him, because I think the debate with Sandine Pelka, as he's good.

We clearly see he's good, but the question is, is he a dynamic 5-11 defenseman to be a first-round pick? And the question I post with Scout was, where is he compared to Neal's Lungfuss at the same age? Oh, what did the scouts say? He said he was similar, but in the same breath saying there were questions

about Niels Lungfuss going into the draft. It's why he went late-late one. A lot of teams haven't as a second round pick, only somehow it's a first round pick. Right, yeah. It'll be interesting to see where he ends up. I think he's a better skater than Lundquist. You think he has as much offense?

I don't think he has as much offense. That's the thing. I think he's a better skater, but I would question that he has the offense. I think Lundfus at the same age, the question was still the offense. Adam Bokfus was the offense guy in that age group. And then as time went on and Lungfist got the S-HL ice time.

And you're like, okay, no, wait, never mind. There's a lot of offense here. Yeah, I'll be interested to see it because Sandine Pelk is, Like I said, seven SHL games. He's played some, you know, he's done very well at the U20 level. But, yeah, we'll see if he gets more games and he gets more minutes. His numbers are really impressive.

Really? Yeah. It's a point for game. I think he's scored like a goal every second game or something like that. He's shown a lot of offense at the J20 level. Yeah, really interesting player. Anyone else do you guys want a spotlight from this U18 tournament? Maybe not the strongest Finland group in recent memory.

You know, Emilio Vente comes in as kind of the bigger name. I know for me in the two games I saw Yessi Kiskenin was kind of their best. best player. But Yarvente is still probably the higher little prospect. Well, maybe. You know, I think the issue is right now that with this finish team is like, are any of them high level prospects? I would say based on what we're seeing here and kind of based on the evidence, no, I definitely was a Yarvente believer before. But you know, I was talking to a scout yesterday and there was an interesting comment about how, you know, he actually played in the U.S. HL for a little bit last season. Amelia Yoventi. Didn't play very well. Like, you know,

he was fine. He was fine. It wasn't, but it just wasn't impressive. for a guy that you say, hey, is this guy really a, you know, first-round pick? And I did rank them on my flow hockey draft rankings. And I'm here and I'm like, I don't think I should have done that. You know, like, you know, but that can happen in these early. Sure. It's still early. But to Yessie Kiskin, impact in every single game that he's played, he's leading the tournament

and scoring with seven points. He is scoring not just goals, but nice goals where he's drag and shoot kind of around players. And the work ethic on him is pretty high. He's also the captain of the team. He has taken his game to another level. So I'm looking at, I think we got a lot of like maybe second, third, fourth round guys on this team where, you know, there's a chance Finland gets shut out of the first round this year.

Yeah, sorry, I was distracted by the Houston Nationals firing their general manager. I don't see that one. Already then. But on another completely different topic, I would agree. I think Nirmie and Keith Kagan are, I think those are the two guys that I've noticed most consistently. And I don't think either of them are talking about. top prospects, mostly because they're size, but they're good skaters. They have skill.

They work hard. Could be like mid-round picks. It's worth noting that the big guy from their age group, Caspar Haltunin's with the 20s right now. But even him, like he wouldn't make. That's right. Yeah. They won't get shut out of the first round.

Well. This, this team, this U-18 team well, probably, but Casper Haltunin is. Yeah. You think? He's kind of looked pretty, not great to start the season so far. But, you know, it's a long. His hauling kill was pretty disappointing, but he's got a lot. He's got first round tools for sure.

And we'll see. And overall, this age group isn't great. I mean, Haltoon himself wasn't great when he played with this age group in the summer. But that's the one guy you wish you had here, something, somebody that looks different because all those forwards on Finland were like 511 or smaller, essentially. There wasn't a lot of different elements that teams had to prepare for with that Finlayish age group. Yeah, absolutely. Anyone from the Czechs or the Swiss that you want to shout?

I know Mateo Wagner had the one nice goal in the first game, but. Yeah, I mean, not really. I mean, the one Swiss guy that I've liked is Eric Schneller, the offenseman, who's been on their top power play and plays a lot of minutes for them. But, you know, like, that's we're talking about mid-round, late-round kind of players on both teams, really. You know, nobody from the check has really stood out at this point. They lost to Switzerland in the last game I was at. So, yeah, it's maybe not a great year for them, especially as it looks like, except we should know, we should note Michael Harabal not at this tournament.

The Omaha Lancer's goalie. So, you know, that's another factor as well. Michael Horwell and Shala. And Shala, yeah, exactly. All right, fellas, let's bring it home with the mailbag. First one is from Derrida Jane. If you could talk on the pot about Hughes Nemitz Casey coming up and what this means for for the devils,

uh, generally perplexes to how they should deal with this embarrassment of riches. Good problems finally in New Jersey. Right. I think one of those don't belong with the other two, but, and there's no disrespect to shame. He's been a great year.

He's been really impressive. He might have, he might have played his way from like an outside chance to make the world junior team to being in a real consideration to make the world junior team being, you know, you know, or at least, you know, you know, I don't know if he's on the team or not, but he's in the conversation. Yep.

But those other two obviously are premium prospects. And I think it'll be really interesting to see what Nusufu does with their powerplay when all those guys get there. Yeah. I think you're looking at Colorado kind of doing this, you know, different maybe caliber of players. You know, I'm not saying any of those guys are Caleb Carr or anything. But, you know, they have, what Colorado has, Caleb McCar and Devontes and Sam Gerard and Bobairum, they're just like, you know, why don't we just try a three-defensement power play unit and see how it works essentially. I think with these guys, you're going to kind of see that kind of vibe. we're like, hey, our most skilled players are defensemen.

So, you know, let's play our defenseman a lot on the power play. I think you can easily slide Dougie Hamilton over to the flank or something, right? And you put Nemitz up top or Casey up top, whatever it might be. You could slide him over the flank. I think that works out perfectly fine. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, the other thing that you have to remember is that these guys are not all arriving at the same time.

Right. It's going to be staggered. You know, Casey, as good as he is, it's going to probably be a two to three-year situation at Michigan for him. Sure. Luke Hughes, you know, he'll be coming out. next year, probably jump right into your lineup. Simon Nemich, you know, we'll see.

He's got to develop a bit more. The scenario I probably didn't think too much about in the preseason is, meaning with, you know, with the devil's being prominently in the playoff races, can Luke Hughes join in the spring and figure into a playoff team? I mean, he's going to have to play better than he has so far this season. Sure. Yes. I mean, like the same way that Kail McCarr did.

And then all of a sudden, you've got another weapon on your lineup. I mean, we saw Luke jump into the world. World Championship last year at the end of the season, and he was one of the better defensemen for USA when he was getting the minutes until they brought in more veteran guys. But if he's, if he's better, yeah, I mean, absolutely. I think, I think Luke is kind of on the Kale-McCarr plan or even the Quinn plan, you know, where it's basically get through the season and then, you know, you'll, you'll move into the NHL immediately. Mac of Way to the same thing. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, and, and yeah, and I think it'll be good. And even, you know, depending on what the situation is,

with New Jersey and if they are in the playoffs, I mean, I think you have to consider that, you know, he's going to be in the mix for that. All right. Let me play Potster here because leading up to the draft, we talked about,

oh, could New Jersey move the second pick for help? You know, everyone knows they need a goalie. At what point, if you're the Devils, would you consider shopping a Nemitz to upgrade your plan in net?

Because, you know, Vandchech's been good. You still need to be better, probably in goal, to be a real contender. I, I, it's an interesting to debate. I'm not sure have we traded Nemich for a goalie right now.

That's, that's a big piece, unless there's something else involved in that. Yeah, I think you, especially, yeah, when you get these young defensemen, you want as many of them as you can. Like, you get as many as you can, and you'll figure it out later. But, you know, it's still very early in the process for him. He still needs to, you know, he's still finding his game in North America, still figuring it out in the HL. There's a long development tale.

Like, you know, if at some point you feel, less certain about his projection, then maybe you consider it because other teams might not have that same outlook. Maybe it's something like a Holtz or McCormadoulin or something like that. That's a center piece.

But with first round picks, but yeah, I think trading damage at this would state that that'd be a... I know they have a lot of good defensemen, but that would be tough for me. All right, fair enough. Logan Horn, how good do you expect Motvei Michkov to be when he joins the NHL

in about three and a half years? Will he make a Caprizov level impact, Chris? Yes, I think so. I mean, the difference is that he's not. We'll kind of see what his physical. Development looks like. Caprizov took many steps to transforming his body. In more years. In more years to transforming his body to being a much more hard, hard player. He is strong on top of being a great offensive talent. But I mean, I think that the way that Matt Faye Mitchcoff thinks the game, I think his hockey sense,

especially offensively, he understands how to play at the highest levels. And he is, he thinks the game ahead of a lot of players. So, I mean, that's, I think, I think, yes, I think a Caprizov level where he's a potential Calder, you know, Calder Trophy winner is absolutely within his capabilities. Right. And I don't think that's what the question was asking in terms of like the direct style cover role, because I think they do play a little bit differently.

Yeah. Oh, for sure. Caprizov is a faster player. He's a much more competitive player, whereas Mitch Kov has pure skill, hockey sense, scoring ability. I almost look like to how, passionate look when he first came into the league. That's the kind of player I kind of envision Mitch Kahl,

where he's just this really dynamic scoring winger with elite skill. And obviously, that would be a very impactful player. But we'll see how he does it over the next few years. Still kind of fighting to make his way into the KHL, although Skah is loaded and winning games every night. So that's going to take some time. But we'll see where he is in three years. Yeah.

But I do think, like, you know, Caprizov comes in and immediately transforms Minnesota. transforms the entire outlook of their organization in one season. Sure. That, to me, with the years of pro that Mitch Cove will have by that point, I think that's what he'll do. That's a great point. Minnesota, before Caprizo came, looked like they were kind of like in that middling,

not sure if this is a good team, not sure if this is a rebuilding team, getting kind of old, that he comes in and there's an excitement, although this season maybe that middling question is back a little bit with when losing Fiala, I think some while fans are concerned, or are we just a bubble team again,

but cap result definitely did transform just the thought of the team. And there's a possibility for this team to be a winner now. Well, they're playing with about 75% of a salary cap too, which isn't making that any easier. Queli Ford, what are your thoughts on Yol Kimmel's season so far? Seems like he's having issues creating chemistry with his centers. Camel's production actually a little bit down from his draft year, mainly in the assist department. But it is a little bit down as we approach kind of halfway to the number of games he played last year. And he's never been a big assist guy ever, but he's playing with the U-20 team right now.

He's playing, you know, a massive role. He's going to get top line, top power play duties at the upcoming world juniors. And I still think this is a guy with a ton of skill and he can score and he can score. But I think that was kind of the concern with why he fell to 17 in the draft is teams losing. Yeah, he's got skill. He's got a goal scoring ability. But he's this 5-11-ish winger, good, not dynamic skater, not an outstanding hockey sense. Can he drive a line?

is he needs somebody to drive the line with him. I thought he could drive a line. I thought the compete always looked pretty strong, but that's the debate. I think he will score more as the season goes on, but it's fair to say, pretty much since, like, December of last season. He's kind of been on a bit of a cold spell at the club level.

Yeah, I agree. And I think with him in particular, especially with the style that he plays at his age, like, you got to wait. Like, don't get too bent out of shape about where he's at right this second, because there is going to be growth. But to Corey's point, last year started hot and then tailed off. This year, he's kind of on that same path.

But I still think that I'm a fan of the player. I think that all the experiences that he's going to have, being able to go to the world juniors, being able to be a go-to player for them. You know, you just have to remember. He's still 18. There's a lot of development time left. And the Liga is a tough league to play. It is not an easy league to score in for a teenager.

Yes, you know, you look at it relatively. relative to his draft year, but I just don't think that, you know, I'm not, I'm certainly not concerned about where he's at. I don't think it changes my projection at all of them. A couple of kind of conceptual ones here that I like. The first one's from Bruno Lauren, how does a player's performance during his draft year really improve or hurt his stock, given all the data that's been gathered in previous years? In other words, how do you differentiate abnormal performances from a player that's regressing? Ooh. What was the first part of that again? Sorry.

Basically, performance during the draft year, obviously, is going to improve or hurt your stop, but how do you weigh it against the body of work that you might have seen over, you know, when they're in their U-17 year? I can start with this one. So it obviously is a balancing, and it depends, I think, particularly on the case of the player, mainly because players play different types of leagues, different quality of leagues, different types of track work you deal with. What do I mean with this?

An example would be, say, Cam Allen this season, who was a top pick in the OHS draft. I was standing 60-year-old season, but those players in Major Junior end up getting big role important roles in their draft season, and they're specifically the guys that help their teams win or lose games. And whether their team is winning or losing games is largely on their shoulders. If you look at a guy like Cam Allen, who's playing a big role on Guelph, Guelph isn't winning a lot, he's not scoring much, that's concerning. But then you look at a case like, say, Danila Jorov last season, who's in the KHL on an elite

team, he's barely playing. Is that a concern? Yeah, you would like him to push his way to a more regular line-off spot. but that's, you know, that's one where you kind of looked at the previous years. Like, ah, man, you know, I've seen him do some really good things in junior at the U-18s, U-17s, and you can kind of put the whole picture together a little bit. It really depends on the particular context. College is a great example.

Dylan Holloway didn't do nothing in his draft season at Wisconsin, but you looked, you're like, okay, man, you have that Hulinka, you have that U-18s, he was the AJHL MVP. Yeah, he looks like there's not much offense this season. And that's going to be the debate with Charlie Stramel as well this season, similar team. But that's the way you have to kind of balance all those things. Yeah, I mean, context is always important too. Like what is what, you know, like especially in the year off case, yeah, he wasn't playing a lot. But look at the team.

Look at the opportunity. Was it a great year for his development? No, but it was also still, you know, we had a good body of work on him. And that that's why, you know, I always take a look at that U-16 or U-17 season a lot, you know, as I'm evaluating a player. but I can't knowing how much changes in that 18 year that use you 18 season for a player and and also you know whether they're playing professionally or whatever else like the context matters so that's that's another reason why you know visual like actually watching the games does matter because when they do get those opportunities you know are they still showing the good habits are they still showing that

there is a you know the compete level are they showing the different things like that's that's the things where, you know, you say, okay, well, this guy's down. Why? You know, is there a reason for it beyond he's struggling? And at this age, most guys are not significantly declining in their development. There's something else there. So having the, that's that what makes having as much of a big of a picture as you can on a player means a lot. All right, kind of a this or that one from Webrister. Would you rather have a player with elite skating, but no puck skills? Or a player with a ton of puck skills, but horrible skating. I think we probably ideally need a little more information here on this player,

but conceptually, do you have a gut feel on this? Neither of them sound all that enticing is quite honest. I mean, like, the thing is, a player with good puck skills, if they don't combine that with, you know, the vision, hockey sense, and different things of how to use it, then it's worthless. Great beer leaguer. Yeah, great beer league. You know, like that's the difference between a guy that might be playing the ECHL and the

HL, the HL, the NHL, the NHL. Those are the different things that they come in. Great skating is always. going to give you a chance. It is always going to give you a chance. But if you can't finish, you can't play. So basically, that's why, you know, without knowing, is this player intelligent or not? You know, that, that's a thing that I think you come back.

Well, what's the compete for the great skater? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, like, that's the thing is, you know, I guess if you're, if we're saying this or that, I'd actually be interested to hear how, this or that, skating your puck skills. I think in general, I would take the guy of a puck. skills but I think the guy with the elite skating is actually going to play in the NHL.

When I see this question, I'm almost like, it might be there's the size and everything else kind of impacts my decision on a little bit. Like when I think of elite skating and puck skills, I think of like Colton Gillies, for example. Or Gary Hill. Yeah, guys who actually play in the NHL. When I think of guys with terrible skating and elite puck skills, I'm thinking of like Taylor Camerrodder or like, you know, or like, you know, or like Nick Patan or something

like that. Yeah. Yeah. Like, you know, like guys, guys like that where it's just like, and I mean, my mind. goes to them being small if they were six to read maybe they're Jason Robertson or something like that but like it's yeah that Jason Robertson's always been kind of my example of the guy who's just not a very good skater but and I think he's improved his skating but still I am getting tired of every shitty skater game compared to Jason Robertson though because there's only one of him in the league so right yeah not all of them could become Jason Robertson

no no but at least you know sometimes when there's a bunch of evidence like there was with Jason Robertson, you need to actually listen to the evidence a little bit more than your eyes sometimes. Sure. All right. Next one's from Dude who says there are some HABs fans stressing or upset the team is winning because they want Bedard, Mitch Cawber, Fantilli. I maintain it's a good thing that guys like Suzuki, Caulfield, Doc, Gully, Harris, even Slavkovsky are playing well and winning some games.

What are your thoughts? Chris, let's start with you. Is it okay that the HABs are off to a surprise start? I mean, yeah, it's okay, but, you know, they still have a ways to go to build a core. You know, but they do have, like, there's a lot more there than, you know, like, and I think that, I think about times when there have been teams that have had, like, those really good young cores and they just got their heads kicked in for, you know, weeks on end and that, you know, that creates a different level of culture. I think that happened with the Buffalo Sabres, where they would. And they didn't necessarily have the core. Like, I still think that the, that the Habs may need that next level star. Like, I think, Suzuki's sensational player. Is he a super, is he a superstar player? No. Yeah. Same with Cole. Same with Cole. And then now you've got your second level guys like Doc.

And then I think Caden Gooley is going to be a very important player for them long term. They still need, you may not need the guy, but you're going to need somebody. You need somebody to be that guy that carries it. So, you know, if I'm a habit fan, I don't want them to outright tank, but I also would love to have a high pick in this draft, particularly in the top four. Well, I would tell dude that don't be too. concern because I think the losses are going to be coming eventually. But I think with this Montreal team when I've watched him, like, I guess when we looked at the roster initially, particularly that D-Corps we looked them initially, you're like, oh, this

is going to be a train wreck. This team's embarrassing. And I think they haven't looked embarrassing because those kids have played such important roles and look the part for the most part. Like, Cade and Gully's been awesome. Awesome. Right away. You know, Jack Eye, the puck game's a little inconsistent, but he looks like an NHL player right

now. Kirby Doc's having a hell of a year right now. Yes. I mean, I know he's on the wing now, not at center, but Kirby Doff looks like a really nice upper part of the lineup, big, skilled, fast type of forward. And I think we were talking about this the other day, Max, about Chicago. I think you look at Chicago.

They trade Kirby Duck, give Dylan Strove away for nothing, give Kabbalch away from nothing. They better kill it at the draft right now. And I understand they're trying to tank. They're trying to get the young pieces. They got three first round picks. A lot of picks in last year draft, a lot of picks in this upcoming draft.

But those are some good players having good seasons right now. Well, to tie a bow on that, who would you rather be right now, Montreal or Chicago? I think it's Montreal all day, right? Yeah, all day. And so, yeah, I don't know. I think it's okay. The one thing I'll say I saw Montreal earlier this week,

what I wouldn't like if I were a Montreal fan is watching Jake Allen outright steal games for me. That's what I would not like. Yeah, that was Chicago was watching Alex Steylock's steel games. games early in the season. I was like, this is not going well for them. S. Lefkoski, like, he's not been amazing, but he's having good flashes. We talked about this podcast a few weeks earlier, but he might have to get sent down. And I'm not sure I'm there anymore.

I know. We'll see where he is by the 40 game, but he looks like an NHL right now. We have one earlier on whether a player could have a Caprizov level impact. Fly Guy OX says, will Niketian reach Caprizov levels of hype? If you had to say why he cannot be a number one NHL defenseman, what would be your reason? So he's talking about Alexander Nikitian, who was a third round pick by Carolina a couple years ago. And this guy is really interesting. He was at the Olympics last year for Russia. Played the top four role on that blue line.

Gets traded in a massive, massive deal in the offseason in the KHL from Spartak to Skaw. And he's been arguably the best defenseman in the KHL this season. He's putting up huge offensive numbers. He's 6'4. He skates well. You can just Twitter search or Google search, Alexander Nikitian hits, and you'll see tons of clips of him just lighting guys up. To answer Fly Guy's question, I kind of think he's trending in that way right now.

He looks like a true top-flict deep prospect right now. The question isn't how good he is. It's when can Carolina get this guy in his lineup because Scott just extended him. But, man, like, he looks like the total package. Like you look at, like, say, whatever, like Jake Sanderson type of prospects. Like, this guy looks like the next one, if not above. those type of players. Yeah, I was just having a conversation about Nikisha with somebody else in hockey this week. And I hadn't watched a lot of the KHL games yet this year. It just hasn't been enough

guys to do that. But he's one guy where it's just like I feel like I need to get in there more. But he is, yeah, I agree with Corey. Like he is, he checks so many of the boxes right now. And, you know, it's just coming down. So he's producing. Yeah, he is. He's producing. Yeah. It's like 20 points in 30 games or something like that. I'm looking at it. I'm looking at them right now, 22 points and 28 games. And he's playing a massive minutes and that team's winning every night. It's really, really impressive. Again, this is a third round draft pick.

And like I said, it's just, Caroline, it's just got to be asking, okay, well, when's he coming essentially? Because we could use some of that. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, on that blue line, he would just be, he'd be a stock. I know. They need some good players. Jonathan P. wants to hear your thoughts on the early season. progress of Sebastian Kosa, Yaroslav Ascarov and Yesper Walsett, possible ETAs on their

NHL debuts. I don't know that anyone's any one of those is going to be kind of imminent. Maybe Wollstead, the closest. Yeah, I think all three of them are pretty good, but they're all kind of been iffy in the American League to start. It's not easy for those goaltenders. And I think with time, they all get there, but it could be a couple of years. Yeah, I think, you know, what, what Detroit is doing with Kosa right now is real

interesting. They've kind of yo-yoed him between the HL and the ECHL, and the most important thing for him is to play games. And Toledo is a really good ECHL team, so they've been able to give him really good, good starts, and he's played well in that league. But, you know, the other thing, I always think back to when Carter Hart was in the HL, and he didn't necessarily light it up in the HL. And I've talked to a few goalie, you know, evaluators over the years.

And they said it's actually very difficult to play in the HL because you do have, there can be such, some nights you've got those teams with a lot of veteran players that are going to be able to you know, kind of pick your defense apart. You're going to, you're going to see a lot of quality shots and different things like that. But, you know, I think where they're at, they're all right where they're supposed to be. They're playing games. They're getting opportunities. So I think that's a good thing.

I was living in upstate New York when Vasselowski came over for his rookie season there. And he was terrible in the American League for like the first few months of the season. Like it's, it was definitely a transition. And then you kind of took off there afterwards. Yeah. Yeah. It's not, it's not the easiest transition. I know one, well, somebody was.

telling me about Spencer Knight in particular, where it was like, he anticipates the game at an NHL level. And the games he was playing in, they weren't really necessarily playing at an NHL level. And so things weren't happening the way they were supposed to, basically. And so like that kind of messed them up a little bit at times. But yeah, it's really interesting to see. I think all three of those guys are still on the starter track. They're going to need time to develop. It's going to be fine. But don't read so much into their numbers and their rookie HL season. I think in general, it's not going to be a great indicator of future success. All right, Peter G wants to know.

Can you talk a little about the defenseman at the top of this draft class? Corey, you kind of teased it earlier. So I'm kind of starting to emerge here. But Cam Allenoff do a slow start to the year. Good starts from Price, Lindstein, Sandine, Pelica, Fisher, who are emerging for you as some of the top 10 D to be off the board this summer? I think the guy he didn't mention that it's kind of pushing the most as David Reinbacher right now. He's an Austrian defense and playing in Switzerland.

I think he's got like 10 points in 20 games already this season. We were playing top four role for the Austrian senior team this week at the Deutsche Lund Cup, 6-2 defensemen who can skate and have some offense. I think that's a guy. I know a lot of teams are keying in on right now. He mentioned Price, King and Price playing 25, 30 minutes a night round for Koloa. He's kind of turning up where direction. He had a strong Holinka.

Lucas Dragasevich in Tri-City. I think he's like a point a half per game now in the Western League. So that's the kind of a guy who was generating some interest. And I like Dimitri Semi, chef to not as much offense but he's played some you know of all the games in the khl big defenseman who can skate um i think there's that's a guy who's who's intriguing me too yeah i mean i i think this year the it is just such a weird year for defenseman i mean like one of the guys that you know we look maxim sturback as a guy sue falls where we thought you know we're still kind of

waiting for him to pop it hasn't necessarily happened yet six points in ten games is not nothing it's not nothing it's not nothing but you know i think that there's there definitely been some elements where he's adjusting to the North American game a bit more. And as Corey correctly predicted, he's no longer committed to the University of Vermont. So all of a sudden, there's a huge recruit on the market for a lot of college teams to look after. You know, I think Lindstein is going to be a guy that I'm going to be tracking very closely. He's not here at the U-18 Five Nations, unfortunately, which has allowed a guy like Sandine Pelica to emerge a little bit more. But yeah, I mean, I think that this year.

you know, it's, it's, it's just tough. I, I, I, I don't know what to make of this, this D class, but I think, Ryan Bacher in particular, the guy that I know you're really high on, you know, maybe he breaks up that kind of, uh, malaise. And Peter mentions Fisher. I think that's a guy who has some sneaky upside to go high in the draft. I think with him, we know this, there's this game there. We know there's, he's got decent size.

The question is just how much offense is there right now. And he's producing a little bit of offense. Yeah. Start this season. But, you know, if we, if I feel confident that there is legitimate offense, And then you look at him compared to, say, Caden Price, compared to say, Theo Linston, you ask, what's the difference here exactly? Right.

That's a good point. Yeah. All right, we opened with the devils. Let's close with the devils. Mack Blackwood's left heel asks, simply, are the devils for real? I think so. I do too. I mean, you got, what's interesting is, like, you know, they've missed Andre Palat for a significant chunk of this season,

and they're still doing what they're doing right now. I mean, they're dominating possession. They're getting a ton of scoring chances and shots. The team looks for, looks awesome. Nico Hesier is, looks like Nico Hesier again, just an absolute star. He looks better than Nico, like even better than before, yeah. Yeah, I mean, he's a star. Yeah, they got two star centers, a great surrounding core.

John Marino's fit in really well into that blue line. They just need someone who can stop some pucks. Does that have to stop all the pucks? Does he have to stop an average event of pucks? Just stop some pucks? Yeah. And I think this is a, this is a playoff team. Yeah.

Yeah, I couldn't have said it better myself, so I won't. You look at the underlying numbers. They're a clone. of the Carolina Hurricanes right now. And maybe with a little bit more finishing ability, too, on that team. I think the East is going to be a blood back. There's going to be one, two, or three really good teams in the East that are not going to make the playoffs. Yeah.

And in the West, it's breakfast. Yeah. So it's, yeah, but I mean, I think that's the key, though. Like, how are, what's going to happen? One of these teams is going to have that fatal flaw, right? I mean, yeah, you could see a scenario of one or two of. Washington, Pittsburgh, Tampa, maybe even Toronto, don't make the playoffs. That'd be wild.

I mean, I'm not saying that's going to happen, but like, given the starts of New Jersey, given the start, even of Buffalo, and I think Ottawa's team still, you know, not winning games, but they look good. They can probably chip away a couple points away from those contenders. That's a brutal conference right now. How are those Fire Lindy Chants going right now? I know. No kidding.

I haven't heard one a while, so. Yeah. Seems like that's going to work out okay for him. That's going to do it for us. Thanks for listen to this episode of The Athletic Hockey Show's prospect series. You can follow us on YouTube at YouTube.com slash at The Athletic Hockey Show. You can also catch more Chris over at Flow Hockey and his podcast Talking Hockey Sense. And right now you can subscribe to The Athletic for $1 a month for six months.

And you visit theathletic.com slash hockey show. We will talk to you soon.