The Athletic Hockey Show - U18 Worlds: Will Smith, Gabe Perreault, Ryan Leonard leading the way for Team USA, Macklin Celebrini, Matthew Wood bright spots for Team Canada, listener questions, and more

Episode Date: April 28, 2023

On this week’s Prospect Series episode of The Athletic Hockey Show, Corey is on location in Basel, Switzerland at the U18 World Championship and is joined by Max and FloHockey’s Chris Peters to discuss Team USA’s tournament so far, including the big line of Will Smith, Gabe Perreault, and Ryan Leonard, Cole Eiserman’s impressive play, now just 4 goals away from Cole Caufield’s all-time goals record, as well as thoughts on James Hagens, Danny Nelson, and more.Plus, Matthew Wood’s strong production despite Team Canada’s rocky play, a nice start for 2024’s potential No. 1 pick Macklin Celebrini, how top European prospects have fared, and a quick mailbag to close things out. Subscribe to The Athletic Hockey Show on YouTube: http://youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowGet a 1-year subscription to The Athletic for just $1 a month when you visit http://theathletic.com/hockeyshowStart making your financial dreams a reality with Chime. Get started at http://chime.com/nhlshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. Hey, everybody. Max Boltman here alongside Chris Peters of Flow Hockey and Mr. Worldwide, Corey Pranman, from Basel, Switzerland, where he is at the World Under 18 Championships. Corey, what's the report so far out there, non-hockey-wise, from Basel? What's the Scouting report? I mean, both Basel and Parenthry, the two-house cities have been great, well-attended, games two in both of the host cities, including the ones without Switzerland. There's been quite a few traveling fans from Europe and North America going to the second rink. I think a very competitive U18 worlds, especially the group in Porencary, where it's felt like every single game there has been meaningful and competitive, including a very

surprisingly competitive Sweden-Germity game and a surprisingly uncompetitive Sweden-Canada game where Sweden opened the tournament with an 8-0-nobbing. of Canada, giving them a little bit of a wake-up call. But in general, it's been a great tournament, and we are recording this right now before the medal round begins. Full blame to Max on that front for squeezing us out of the quarterfinal record slot I had requested. So some of the things we say now may seem outdated and stupid when this show actually posts, but

so far the tournament has been great. But please keep listening, I guess. I think there's still plenty to talk about here that's going to be. very relevant. And hey, all it really means is that next week when we circle back on this, we'll have some stuff to update with, even more stuff to update with than we would have otherwise. Let's get right into it with the prelims. And the big story of the tournament so far, I think, starts with what's been the big story for the U.S. under 18s all year. It's the big line, Will Smith, Gabe Perrault, and Ryan Leonard, all of them having really outstanding tournaments.

But let's start with the record broken, which I think multiple guys by now have, Has Smith gotten that record yet, or was it just Perot? Yeah, they've both gotten Austin Matthews' record now, but I think Perrault is still ahead of the game a little bit there. All three of them have been consistently impactful. That line stands out, wherever they've played, USHL College International. And I think all three of those players,

to varying degrees, Smith, Perrault, and Leonard are going to be very high draft picks. If I had to say one of them is a riser, I think it is Perrault. I think that's the guy when you've been seeing like mock drafts and rankings. He's normally been listed around the 20s. I don't think that's going to be a reality. I think you're hearing him now, but people I talk to hear more in the teens, maybe even higher.

I think this is going to be a guy who's, along with Leonard, it's going to be a really high draft pick. Between those three and Oliver Moore, who doesn't get to play on that top line, the top power play. But honestly, his second power play unit, the one with him and James Hagen's

and Nicole Eisenman has been buzzing just as well as the first unit, some nights here. You can ask any scout, I think, to put those four players in order, Smith, Leonard Perrae, more. and I think every single scout will put them in a different order it feels like right now. And honestly, some don't even have Smith at one.

Some would choose one of the other guys, but I think most would have Smith at one still. So I think those are their four really good prospects. And they definitely have shown here in the early stages of the tournament. Yeah, and I would say, too, you know, just to get to their overall production. So we talked about, you know, Gabe Perot is now way past Austin Matthews' record of previously 117 points. Jack Hughes actually fell one point shy of breaking that record as a U-17. So he was the second guy for the longest time, and now they've both passed them. Additionally, Perot and Smith are at 15 points in the tournament, averaging 3.75 points per game,

which would put them on pace if they played all three of the, if USA plays in the next three games, which we fully expect them to do, then they're on pace to break the tournament, single-season tournament, or a single tournament record that's currently held by Nikita Kuturov at 21 points. You know, obviously the games get tougher here at this stage of the tournament. They're probably not going to average four points a game, but they still have a chance to really produce here. And what they've done over the course of the season, you know, I've been following, worked at the National Team Development Program, following it for as long.

I mean, I don't think we've ever seen anything quite like this. I mean, it was kind of thinking about, you know, we had Jack Eichel, Sunny Milano, and Alex Tucker were a line together. You know, we had Jack Roslavik with Austin Matthews and Matthew Kachuk. Roslovak, obviously, the headliner there. And then Jack Hughes, Cole Coughfield, and then a smattering of different wingers over the time that they were there. And, you know, we're talking about this line specifically, you know,

certainly the most productive. Every single guy is over 40 goals this year, over 45 goals this year. we've just never really seen something quite like this. And the fact that they're all going to Boston College next year makes it, you know, the fact that we're going to get to see an extended version of this trio. And we haven't talked about Ryan Leonard as much, but he had a hat trick in their last game and is one goal shy of 50 goals this season. I mean, this is a really remarkable group that they've put together here.

And I mean, I still, you know, I still can't get over just how smooth and how clean. And, you know, the U.S. hasn't been in a great bracket in the under-eastern. so we would expect them to produce. But, I mean, we're talking four points a game against the best players in the world in their age group. You know, there's just something special happening with that, with those three guys. Yeah, you mentioned Leonard, like that.

It doesn't have the exact production of those other two, but there are some scouts I talk to who think just as highly of Leonard as other two and think he might be the best of the three just because he has made the most pro traits between his competitiveness, and skating, etc. I think whenever we talk about records right now, especially in the context of double IHF tournaments in the era without the Russian national team there.

They all need some asteris, just because USA got games against Latvia, Norway, and Switzerland in the same group. So, you know, I thought the same thing, frankly, with Connor Bedard, too, but his, you know, his quote, quote, records at the World Juniors, they're extremely impressive,

though he's doubting that this guy's, you know, an out of this world prospect. But I think all those things need to be considered, especially since, like, I think his record, they were combining the canceled tournament into that for some strange reason too or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. That's true.

Yeah. Yeah. There's been some interesting math going on in this era. But yeah, I think all those things. I mean, there's a scenario, again, we're recording it's for the medal around. Thanks, Max. And, you know, where technically all three of them might break the record. And I think that would make the record maybe, you know, I think that would definitely make you need to put an asterisk next to that record.

if that were to happen. But it's possible. I definitely, I think for Smith and Perrault, they are well within striking range of passing Jack Hughes's single tournament mark of 20 and then Nikita Kutrov's mark of 21. So here's my question, Corey. You mentioned kind of not changing their stock too much for this top line. And certainly with Smith and Lenders, really not much that can change as they're both potential top 10 picks.

Perot has seemed like the guy who's kind of behind that pack for much of the year. And I think the worry maybe, at least for me, has been like, well, how much of this is kind of a Sunny Milano, Jeremy Bracco situation more so than, you know, you're talking about that Austin Matthews tier. Now, obviously, like Chris said, he's obliterated this record at this point. But has his move to the point, could he challenge for kind of top 15, top 12, Gabe Perrault based on what he's done here? I think so. I think you compare him to Milano and Barco. I think you can remember that they didn't produce even close to this. So that's part of it.

even though Milano got to skate with Jack Eichael, he didn't score close to the level that Perrault was at. I would say that Perot's issues have been, like I said, you think you worry about the combination. I think with all three of them, you kind of worry about the combination a little bit, be quite frank, but it was mostly that he's a 5-11 barely winger, who is a below-average NHL skater. And he competes fair well enough, but he's not highly physical.

So there's some risk factors, questions with NHL scouts, is how well is it going to translate? I think with Smith and Leonard, because they're a little bit bigger and definitely better skaters. You're not as worried about the translatibility as you would be with Perrault. But the offense at some point gets such a significant degree where it's not just good offense. It's exceptional offense. And now you're starting to think, okay, maybe this is like a Cole Perfetti type of projection kind of thing.

And so maybe he goes around 10, maybe he goes around 15. I think that's kind of where things are going to fall with him when it's all said and done. So as we're talking about records here, Chris, there's one more. that I think we're kind of watching. And it was one that I would not have said there was even really a significant chance of falling when this tournament began. But Cole Iserman now has Cole Caulfield, 72 goals record in his sights. We have seen some big underage performances before at this tournament. But what has Cole Iserman shown you and how impressive has it been to see him step right up into this fully formed 18 team and basically score at will for this tournament?

Yeah, he has scored at will. I think since he's joined, he played actually a little bit earlier in the season with the under 18s when they were short-handed and he scored two goals in that game too. I think he scored 25 or 26 maybe of his goals from this season with the under 18 team. But yeah, he's at 68 goals total this season. Has eight in the tournament. That's the most ever by a U-17 player from the U.S. that passed Phil Kessel and Patrick O'Sullivan in this specific tournament. The record's 14 by Ovechkin.

I think that one's safe, but you never know with Cole Eisenman because he can score it well. I mean, I think the things that are very interesting about him is just every time he shoots the puck, it feels like it has a chance to go in. Similar with Connor Bedard, like we're like every time he shoots, it feels like it has a chance to go in. He's dangerous on the power play, you know, tremendous one-timer. He's scored a couple of goals. He can score in a variety of ways. He can get in, you know, get to the interior and get to the net.

But he's obviously very good scoring from distance. But I would say, you know, with him, yeah, so right now he's, he's in a position where he has only four goals that he needs to get to catch Cole Coughfield's single season record. You know, and now all of a sudden we're starting to talk a little bit about, so he's a U-17. Coffield did it as a U-18, and both he and Jack Hughes were sending all sorts of records. They actually set a record on the same goal that they had to split the puck in half because I think Jack got like the all-time points record and Cole got the old-time gold's record on the same goal. But for Cole Eiserman, you know, he's a really interesting player in that, you know, I don't necessarily think outside of his goal scoring tool, there are a ton of elite traits on top of that. But he is so good at that thing. Oh, I don't think that at all.

I think his skill is off the charts good. Well, yeah, I should, yeah. I mean, it's hand skills, but I mean, like in terms of size, skating's fine. Like, it's not amazing. It's better than Caulfields, though. I think so. Maybe. maybe. But yeah, but I mean, like I'd say, yeah, but I mean, he's, he's definitely the things that he

has done this season, you know, just it's never ever happened at his age, never ever had. You think about all the guys that have been through. It's never ever happened. 68 goals. And it just, it doesn't even sound like it's a real number. But, but, but I mean, and the other thing, too, that's interesting now, there's a lot of chatter and there has been throughout the season about what he does next season because he's committed to the University of Minnesota. He's done all of this. You know, I think that there's at least a discussion about potential acceleration. I think if he, if he, we saw that happen with with Noah Hannafin and Zach Werenski. Very rare that it happens out of the national team program. But it is something that now you have to be like, well, he just did something

no one else had ever done. He scored 68 goals. You know, is there much more he can do at that level? I'm sure that everybody is currently exploring all of those options on that front right now. Chris, does it feel like to you that we kind of feel like with the program kids, maybe not every year, but it feels like every two to three to five years nowadays, some record keeps getting broken. And like what do you make of like it doesn't feel like records have much security right now with the U.S. national team program? Right.

Yeah, it's kind of crazy. I mean, I think I don't know exactly. what to attribute it to because they're still playing as many college teams. They're still playing, the USHL schedule. But I do think that there's a certain degree of the players are better. They just are. They're getting better in terms of the, even though the leagues have gotten better too, I think, in a lot of different ways. They're deeper. There's teams are, you know, more structured. It's, it tends to be harder. But I just think that the American player pool continues to grow in such a way and in such a variety that, you know, You know, there's, there's, there's been more of an emphasis on skill over the last, you know, 15 years where there's been the American development model.

There's been a lot more gains made in terms of player development. And so I think that's part of it. But yeah, I mean, aside from that, it's really hard to, you know, pinpoint in terms of what we're seeing. I mean, these players are coming in more prepared than they've ever been. Yeah, like, if these things happen during like the COVID seasons and whatnot, when they're playing a bunch of D3 schools is one thing. But you look at their college schedule and it was a pretty competitive college schedule, with a lot of big name schools on there. Yeah, they beat a lot of ranked teams this year.

They were well above 500. They are they, I think they only lost a couple of college games this year. I mean, and we're beating some of the biggest programs. So, you know, I think, you know, part of it is just the,

the guys that they're getting for sure. Because, I mean, if you look at this U18 roster, outside of the top couple lines, like throughout the season, the bottom of the lineup isn't necessarily that exciting or enticing. And it's a pretty mediocre blue line too. Which, yeah,

which is, strange to see such this level of dominance from those players given those circumstances because you know I it's just hard yeah it's hard it's hard to pinpoint I think it just speaks to the strength of that top line and Oliver Moore I think that top line looks yeah they look like the harlem globetrotters sometimes during during games throughout the season the stuff they call us yeah it's it's been like that's and in this tournament too you watch you know every secondary assist looks like a highlight highlight real play. It's not like some like, you know, just throw the puck up the ice and let somebody else do all the work. It's like, you know, no, Will Smith's going to dangle this guy here.

He's going to pass it. It's going to be a one touch pass and then it's in. I did notice in the game against Finland in the first period that line wasn't really going too well. I think they were getting overly cute. And I actually noticed in the second period. They did they actually didn't get a whole. I think they only got like one shift together at even strength. And I think that was maybe a little bit of a message sending. But, but then they had that incredible third period and they were doing all the same things. in the first period. They just didn't work.

I think that's, I think that's just, that's what those guys are. One more quick thought on the U.S. team before we move on here. James Hagan's is the other, the big, other big time underager,

having a really good tournament as well. He's not terribly far off of the, I think he passed Clayton Keller's mark from his under 16. I think he's third right now in the age 16 season, under 17, I should say. Your thoughts on James Hagan so far, Corey. Yeah.

know, he's kind of been playing in that bumper role on the second power play. So on the power play, you know, they use more. They use Eisenman as the main guys who touch the puck. And Cole Hudson, who's been fantastic, too, since he's been called up. I think, you know, he's a guy who has, you know, a very bright future. He plays a lot like his older brother, Lane, to be quite honest. But Behan's, that even strength, I think, has looked really impressive with his skating and skill and playmaking. For a guy that he was going to be, who is three drafts removed from being eligible.

We haven't seen a guy play at this level at this event, frankly, since I think Chris might be, like, can remind me, like, since Austin Matthews frankly play at this event. And in terms of the impact of guy as a late birthday in the age level below is able to have, like, Straymo played, but he didn't have close that kind of impact. So I'm not saying Hagen's is a Matthews level prospect. But frankly, I don't think he's that far off at the same age. I think this guy's an extremely special player. A lot of rhymes to Jack Hughes in terms of the stylistic and the similarities in the same age. the talent. And one of the other guys on this team that we really haven't talked much about it, I think, for me, is one of the most fascinating prospects in the draft. There is, there is one

player on this team that we have talked about who is an A-rated player by an HL Central scouting, projected as a first rounder. And that is the fourth line center for this team in Danny Nelson. And I wish I had an idea of what to make of Danny Nelson right now. For those who don't know the background, this is a guy who joined the NTP for this season. He wasn't with the program the prior year. He was a defenseman in Minnesota High School last season. He's played center all season with the program this year. He can play both positions. People of the league aren't 100% agreeing on what position he actually is going to be when he is a pro. He's a six-three. He skates well. Didn't have a good year. They don't really play him much on this team right now,

but the tools are really significant. And I will be really curious to see where he ultimately goes. he was ranked, I think, in the 20s, but North America, when it was Central released their final list. I would, it wouldn't rock me out of my chair, but I'd be a little surprised if he actually did go in the first round when the draft actually comes.

But he is, I will be really interested to see how his future goes. Yeah. And I, just to that point, Corey, too, like I have been trying all season to try and figure out, you know,

why, you know, like, why, what is, where is this kind of, I mean, I get it. He's big.

You see flashes of skill. You see various pops of skill. He's done well on the penalty kill in this tournament. I've liked the way he's actually looked in the role that he's played in this tournament. But I mean, that's the thing is like, you know, when you come and join a team like this, he played a lot with Oliver Moore, you know, and I think that for the first half of the season, he was just trying to catch up. He was just trying to catch up with the players that were already on this team.

And so now he's. There's a reason Carrie Terrence is on that line right now, though. Exactly. Yeah, because Carrie Terrence can absolutely. Scoot. So, you know, and he, and he's kept up. He's kept up. And that's, that's the thing, you know, and so I think, you know, Danny Nelson is going to be interested. He's heading to Notre Dame next year. You know, that's a, that's a program where there's a lot of, you know, defensive kind of focus. And I think ultimately, you know, to me, the projection for him is down the lineup. I think he can play in the NHL.

I think he's got enough tools and the size. But, you know, I just don't like, you know, I don't think the players that the style that he would ultimately play in the NHL, I just don't think that's the kind of player you take in the first round. Okay, guys, let's move on to some of the other teams at this tournament. And I want to start with Canada. Obviously, a rocky start for them. But one of the guys who has been of high interest at this tournament is a guy who came in at number four on Central Scouting's North American list shortly before the tournament

began, and that's Matthew Wood. He has been quite productive at this event. Chris, I'm going to start with you here. How surprised are you by this from Matthew Wood, if at all? Oh, not at all. I mean, I think that, you know, here's, here's a guy that spent his entire season at the collegiate level. So this, this game should be a little bit slower for him, a little bit less physical. And he's a big guy that is allowed to kind of throw his weight around. I mean, you know, he's playing on a good line. He's getting, the one thing that I think Matthew Wood has done throughout his career is put himself in good positions. He always finds himself in good spots to score. He's able to use his frame to play down low. He's, you know, I think that he's shown in this tournament throughout. that he is, you know, at least among his peers physically dominant to a certain degree. It's not that he's, you know, overpowering people, but he's just, he's just really hard to get the puck off of and he's making good plays and tight.

But, you know, I think the thing with him is, I certainly was one of the people that was not, like, shocked, but surprised that he ended up as high as he did on the central scouting list. Because, you know, he had a very good collegiate season. It wasn't earth-shattering. It wasn't, you know, this, you know, like we look at fans, if we're, it's not fair to judge against Fantilli. He did lead the Yukon in scoring, though. He did lead his team in scoring, and he was a point per game player at the

collegiate level as the youngest player in college hockey at 17 years old throughout the entire season. The fact that he's in this tournament after a collegiate season speaks a lot. And here's a, you know, he was on the team last year, so he got a little bit of experience and I think that that helps as well. But to me, I expected Matthew Wood to be a top player for Canada in this event, and that's exactly what he's been. I've really liked what I've seen from him.

I don't necessarily know that it materially changes how I feel about him because I already liked them an awful lot for this draft. So, you know, I think that this is going to be, you know, just a nice cherry on top of what was a very strong season for him. I think he's played very well. I think his fellow winger on his line, Callum Ritchie, has played very well. But I think the big reason why they're playing very well is the center on that line. And that is Macklin Sellebrini, who, I think all of them have played well. but I think Sellebrini, not surprisingly, the projected potential first overall pick,

I think him and Cole Eisenman right now, or depending on your taste, would be the guys right now for next year, in terms of that poll position. He has been, I think, the driving force of this Canadian hockey team and a Canadian hockey team that, frankly, underwhelmed for large portions

of the tournament, particularly that 8-0-Dubbing by Sweden, I think it's been Celebrini that's been the one guy who's consistently actually been able to generate offense it even strength for this team. Yeah, yeah. And one last point on Celebrini, too, is just the way, like,

the way he's played all season in the USHL, I mean, every single team goes after him. He has just this incredible ability to stay above everything. And I think that's part of that is confidence, but also, I mean, he's strong. He's, he's physical enough. He's got the skill. He's got the skating.

It's been, you know, to see him be a driver at this level with this team and to really, you know, and I agree, Corey, I think that, you know, he's made the guys around him better. He's done that all season with Chicago as well. You know, I think that he's just a very, very special player that has so many key traits, including his poise and maturity that he's played with all year. I've just been, that's what I've been impressed with most. He's, he's kind of like, you know, you talk to him and he's just kind of this, you know, soft-spoken individual. He's, you know, kind of, I wouldn't say shy or anything, but then you see him on the ice and he's just ferocious. And, and, and I like, I like the way that he plays a lot,

and I've just been really impressed throughout the entire season, but to see how he's done here, it's been really special. Yeah, my player cop for him as like a Nico Hesierer, like plus plus type of guy in terms of the all-around player, but just, you know,

a little bit more dynamic, even like just as competitive, maybe even more competitive and physical sometimes. We mentioned the two guys on that line in Celebrini and Wood. Wood was interesting, for us interesting because he was, I thought, bad at the Holinkigiegretzky,

and he was benched in the important, the important games. Whereas here, they're leaning on him. But the guy who was both good at the Halinka and then good here was Calam Ritchie, who it's going to be a really interesting evaluation case because he ticks all the tools you look for in terms of the size, the skating, the skill, the natural scoring ability, but didn't have the big year in Osce, you expected him. But the underage year was good.

The Halinka was led to determine in scoring. and now very good here. So where Cal and Richie ultimately ends up in the draft will be very interesting. I talked to scouts who thought he was probably trading towards the 20s, some who even thought before the tournament he might even get out of the first round. I don't think there's a reality where he gets out of the first round right now. And I think he could still go back to his potential teens level projection. We thought he would be at the start of the season.

A couple other Canadians I want to ask you guys about. One of them is Lucas Dragasevich, who obviously the people, profile here is that there can be some swings. And so far in this tournament, there have been some swings. Yeah, I mean, he was brutal against Sweden. But then, you know, in some of the more recent games, including that important game against Slovakia, where they went right down to the wire, he played a big role. In the tournament, played a lot of minutes, played a lot of minutes in the game against Chequette. His puck moving, his skill is excellent. But that's a really choppy and efficient skating stride.

and it limits him, especially when it comes to the defensive play. So, I mean, that's kind of where the concerns are. And he defended quite poorly in the gaming game of game suite. And they're bringing in Etienne Moran right now from the queue, who's been outstanding with Moncton between the regular season and the playoffs. So I'll be interested to see how Dragasevich's role evolves with Quentin Burns now injured. Moran coming in. Does Dragonisage's minutes get taken away?

Is he still the power play one guy? We don't know this because we are recording this before the middle round. Thanks again, Max. and but dragosavish you know I think there were I think he was

considered a late one type by scouts could be good I don't know whether that's materially changed not whether he's a late one early two

but I think how he does in the hard games when it's like the game of Sweden where he really gets pressed and and the leverage really rises I think that's going to kind of determine his draft stock

at the end of the day how about Kobe Barlow who's a guy who obviously outstanding production this season. And I think a guy who we think has at least a chance to go in the top 10 or maybe at least certainly the top 15 you would think. I mean, I hear that. I hear people say that a lot in the league that he can go that high.

And I understand it. He's a good skater. He competes. The offense and the OHL is exceptional. If you look at the top 10 picks that have gone that high, Jeff Skinner, Stephen Stamco's, you know, etc. or like he's Taylor Hall, he's up there with some of the all-time greatest draft eligible scores as a 16-year-old, 17-year-old too. Like, he has those numbers. But when I watch him, and I think Chris echoes these sentiments, he just looks so vanilla, I think, sometimes.

Like, I get that he's, there is some skill there. He competes. The shots really high end. You saw that end. I think it was the first goal against Chequia, where he had the shot there from the dots that went in. But it's tough, not just from what I'm watching here, from the Hulinka and from watching him. all year and Owen sound, it's tough for me to reconcile the numbers with what my eyes are seeing, which is just a guy who does not drive the bus.

Yeah, I've felt throughout the season and through multiple viewings and just, you know, seeing a good chunk and also in this tournament, you know, ultimately I'm looking at ceiling and I'm wondering where, you know, where is the upside for a player like this? You look at the numbers and if you just looked at the numbers, you'd say, oh, well, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's really high. But as to Corey's point, there just isn't a ton there there. You know, like, you know what I mean? Like, it's just, it's just kind of, you know, there's, I definitely have concerns that what we're seeing now is kind of towards the top of his ceiling already. And I'm not sure exactly where he goes from here. I've heard the devil's advocate argument from people saying,

well, well, Mason McTavish was the fully developed physical product, et cetera. But Mason McTavish at this tournament was far more dynamic. Like he, he's, yeah. Yeah. the tournament in Dallas, he took over. Yeah, I think that that's, and I definitely understand that comp from just, you just look at the two guys. I mean, you know, you had, you had Mason McTavish with his full beard at the under 18 worlds. You got Colby Barlow with one of the best mustaches going in, in all of junior hockey right now at the under 18 worlds.

And, and also just, you know, there's that kind of that physical, the hard to play against kind of vibe from them. But, but I just, yeah, I would say, you know, Mason McTavish is a far, was a far more, you you could see just the immense vision, his incredible shot. I mean, even a better shot and Barlow's got a great shot. But, I mean, McTavish was just incredible. You could score from anywhere. And he was the driver of that team.

You know, him and Shane Wright were the drivers of that team in that tournament. And just, yeah, I mean, I haven't seen that yet from Colby Barlow. I wanted to see that. And I kind of expected to see that here. It's like, it's good skating. It's not incredible skating. He's 6'0. So it's not even 6'1.

It's good skill. but it does not bring you out of your seat skill either. So the shot is the big appeal there. I think the compete is very strong too. Yes. But yeah, it's, there's been a lot of watching this guy, especially as a winger wondering, where is this wow factor here for a potential top 10 pick?

I'm fine talking about him in the teens. I think this is going to be a very nice second line winger in the NHL. And if you can get that guy with the two-way attributes, you know, in the teens, I think that's, I think it's fine value. you, but in terms of a premium pick, I've, like, I just struggled to get in there with him. Yeah, and that's an important point that he, that he had to make, like, when we're talking about the guys that are going in that top 10 range, there has to be additional scrutiny. There has to be,

because that's, the higher the pick, obviously, the more risk and everything else, but I'm totally on board with Corey here where it's like, you know, if there's this, if we're talking about a ceiling that he needs to get to to be in consideration for that top 10, I feel like, you know, he falls a little bit short of that. Sure. Only thing I'd add is you guys have talked about, as we talked about the program kids, you know, the games are going to get tougher here at the end. These would not surprise me if these are the kind of games that Colby Barlow finds a way

to make a little bit of a difference for Canada. We'll see how long they can last. I don't know that they're going to have a long run here. But heavy guy who competes well with a big shot who can score in the dirty areas, it would not shock me if his best games were to come in the middle round. I believe if the favorites went out, they would actually end up playing against the U.S. and the semifinal. And I think that game, if that happens, is the game that everybody in the prospect world from media to scouts has been waiting to see. It's been this great Canadian 05 age group with Barlow, with Dragasevich, and Riley Height and Richie and Wood and all those guys going up against Smith, Perrault, Letter, Moore, and seeing who comes out victorious.

The team that knocked off Canada to begin the term, we've alluded to it enough times by now, Sweden, and I think the big story here is on the blue line for them. Axel Sandin Pelica had a monster game against Canada, but really there's three guys on this blue line who have really turned to have. It's Sandy and Pelica, who we've known about all year. It's Tom Willander, and it's Theo Lindstein. Yeah, and I think we all presume Axel's ending in Pelica is going to go pretty high in the draft. I would call them a first round lock at this stage. It could very easily be the, second defenseman picked in the draft, you know, just incredible. Hockey sense, good, you know, good skater, competes well, can score goals, not the

biggest guy, that's going to be the knock on him as whether he's a dynamic enough 5-11, a guy to be, you know, top 15, top 10 pick, etc. But he should be a solid first rounder. It really is the play of Theo Lindstein, his defense partner, and Tom Wollander, that I think has been the most interesting. I think Lindstein, who's part of his partner at the February tournament as well, looks like a really strong prospect. He moves the puck very well.

He's a good skater. Not the biggest guy, not that physical. He has offense, but with his club team, especially at the J20 level, he really put up much of a numbers. You're wondering if this, is this a dynamic enough guy to be a first round pick? But I think there's enough people in the league

who believe that to where he's at least in the conversation. But I do think, if the draft happened right now, I think Tom Willander is going in the first round. I think, you know, he is one of the best skaters in the draft. And I think the question on him all years is, their offense there. He's a point per game right now through this tournament. He's scoring on the power play. He's showing some playmaking ability that I didn't honestly think was always there this season. And I still have some minor concerns on the hockey sense. Is it going to be

high enough to be a real offensive guy at higher levels? But I think he's showing it's good enough to go with really strong defensive play, exceptional skating ability. I think he's been a guy who's definitely helped himself here. The forward, I think, who for Sweden is having a really notable term, is Otto Stenberg. Another guy who's been on the radar, certainly. I think at times we've talked about him as a potential first round pick after what's been a really good tournament so far. And thanks to somebody on this podcast who won't remain nameless, we won't get the medal round in this discussion here.

I'll just pile on there as well. Otto Stenberg, Corey, is he solidified a first round case so far for you? I wouldn't say solidified just because he is a 5-11 wing. And I don't think he's been a really tough evaluation case because every time he plays for team Sweden, he does this. He did it at the Holinka, one of the leading scores there. He looked really good the November 5 nations that Chris and I were both at. You know, February tournament, he was pretty good there, scored a hat trick in the last game.

But when he goes back to play with his junior team at the J20 level for Rundah, he doesn't really look all that special. It's not just the production. You talk to scouts who watch him in those games too. They come away underwhelmed. And so it's not, you know, this dynamic tool kit. It's not exceptional club production. But you look at, you know, he is a good skater, he has skill, you can shoot the puck, he competes hard, He shows up consistently on these national team games.

So I do think, you know, if I was doing a mock draft right now, I probably have him in the first round, but I don't think he's a comfortable first rounder. What do you think, Chris? Yeah, I agree with that. And he's been tough for me because, you know, certainly in some of the live viewings that we've had, really good. I mean, you know, really, really good.

And then, yeah, I would echo those sentiments about, you know, the club production. You look at the J20 level in Sweden. And if you're not very productive there, it's not great. It's not a great, like it's a good level of junior hockey. It is certainly not a great level of junior hockey. When you look at it compared to say how somebody competes in the USHL or otherly, you know,

or certainly the CHL, you know, that's when you're saying, you know, this is a guy that should be that is this good at his internationally should be a more dominant player at that level, right? Among first year draft eligibles on Frolanda's J20 team, he is third in scoring. Yeah, that's not good. It's not good. Yeah, I mean, and that's not a small thing. Now, yes, he's played SHL games this year. He's had an opportunity there. And then as we've seen him, you know, we see, I think, at the under 18 level, we've been able to see what he ultimately could be. You know, but yeah, I would have to say for me, still kind of towards the end of my first, but it's not,

I would say his position there is tenuous, even though what we're going to see in his very last impression is going to be a very good one at this tournament. It's a really strange case because you have Noah Downer Nielsen on that J20 team who puts up exceptional numbers. And when I watch them with the Sweden national team, I literally can't find them on the ice some games. Yeah, yeah. But the guy in between them, so Downey Olson is clearly the best score on that J20 team. You have Stenberg, who's a little over a point per game.

The second highest score on that team in terms of first Jailables is David Edstrom, who's looked really impressive in this tournament. He is a 6-3 center. He skates well. He's shown offense now at this level. didn't always show it at the international level all season to go a two-way play. I think this is a guy who is, I think he is far more interested in a pro prospect than maybe I've given him credit for.

I think this is, he's been a big reason for Sweden's success so far in the tournament. And he's gotten some SHL run as well and a little bit of production in his SHL run as well, although Stenberg basically similar. I think Stenberg got a little more run. It's true maybe had one more point in fewer games. Yeah, I'm not saying he's going day one. but I wouldn't like be shocked if that happened. I think he's probably a really early day two guy,

but I definitely think this is a guy who's trending strongly in the right direction. A couple more guys I want to get to here before we go to the mailbag, and one of them is Dahlborg Dvorsohn, who I think is having one of the most notable tournaments of anybody, really. And this is a guy who playing in the All Svenskine in Sweden has had, you know, it's been up for debate what to make of his season so far. But at this event, he looks like a guy who's played against him. man.

It looked like it was up for debate there to start the tournament. Like his first two games, I thought he was kind of invisible to be quite always at times. Not like invisible, but not making an impact. And the skating looked glaring and you're wondering where's the scoring. And then Slovakia, who played well against Chequia, wins the game in the shootout, pushes Canada right to the brink. And they're getting, you're like, oh, okay, this is a real team. It may not a really deep team, but they've got Dvorsky and Maximstom.

Sturback's a really good player and this Urii Prakchik kids playing well. They've got some other nice pieces on this team. And then they go up against Germany and they're down four two in a second period. And you're like, what the hell is going on here exactly? And if they don't get that game to overtime, they are going to the relegation route. And they needed a big performance and then Dvorzky delivers a big performance when they need it. He goes four goals, one assist in that game, a monster game when they absolutely needed one. And so you see it in there.

And Dvorzky, like he said, he hasn't always been there this year. He's gone in a stretch of J20 games in Sweden where he's gotten to play very well. He has a history of playing very well, providing a lot of offense. But because of the skating, there is questions when he doesn't show up consistently on whether he can be an impact guy. I lean to the answer being that he can be a good NHL player. But there's, frankly, I've been people watching this term and wondering,

is he, you know, going to be Ryan Strom, or is he Cody Glass because of the skating issues? And I think those are the struggles that I think teams are having with him right now. Yeah, what an interesting prospect and also an interesting, another one of those guys where it's been a tough evaluation over the course of the season. But at the same time, you know, we've got such a body of work with him, you know, going back with, you know, his first, the first, you know, busting on to the scene at the Holinka Gretzky Cup and all those different things that he's done as a young. player. And then, you know, to me, watching that Germany game and watching a player take it over, you know, I needed to see that from him. Even though it was against Germany, this German team has actually played very competitive hockey here at the under 18 worlds for a team that's, you know, just kind of unfortunate draw for them in terms of the pool that they ended up in. But, you know,

I would say he needed to have a game like that. He played 24 plus minutes in that game in a regulation game. You know, so for a forward, pretty significant, had over 25 minutes in the game against the checks. And to see him take over a game like that, I just even, it didn't matter to the opponent. I just needed to see him do it. And it helps a lot. And it also just based on everything else that we've seen this year from him, I think that he's added a little more versatility to his game. I feel like there's some more detail to his game. And I feel like he's become a more well-rounded player overall. but in this setting, they need him to be a score. And, you know, he finally did deliver for him.

I thought one thing that was interesting is I had a scout mentioned to me that just, like, in turn of criticizing Dvorsky is that he has nobody to play with in terms of the forwards on the team in terms of like legit skill. And when you kind of look at me like his analytics in a tournament, I think I had someone showed me that he has he led forward so far in terms of puck touches, which I thought was, you know, interesting argument in his favor, probably because he plays so much, as Chris said. But I think this is a really good player and the supporting cast just also isn't very ideal around him.

Yeah, very fair, very fair. Another guy who I think like Dvorsky entered the year as a really high prospect and has had the ups and downs. What have you thought of Shala's tournament so far? I mean, I think it's been the same ups and downs. I think those first couple of games, particularly the game against Sweden, you have to kind of get the binoculars out to make sure that he's actually on the ice sometimes. Then the game against Canada, even though they lost, I think it was seven years. But I thought, I think it was 7273, I forgot the exact score off my head. 8.3.

Close enough. 83. But I thought Shaleh was excellent in that game. I thought you noticed him consistently, not just as he got a goal and assist, but I thought he was playing with pace. He was creating chances. And I think that was the player when you watch it, you get really excited by the combination of size, skating, skill, playmaking ability. That guy does not show up every night. And it is a concern.

and, you know, he is still a solid first-round pick, I think, but in terms of a premium guy, I have not seen that at this tournament. We didn't see it at the February tournament either where he laid an egg. I thought at that event, and so I think, I don't think this guy has done himself much favors this season. I didn't love his Hiling Kegreski. I thought it was good, not great. I thought it was what junior's were good,

but he was, I thought, the third best player on that line with Batia Sapavila and I'm Kulich. But again, really talented player, really good track record, was one of the best pure players I thought at this tournament as a 16-year-old. It's kind of weird that a 16-year-old tournament has probably been better than a 17-year-old tournament, quite frankly. So he's again, he continues to be a very frustrating player and a tough evaluation case for me. As we talk about Dvorski, as we talk about Shala, we talk about all these different, you know, some of these guys where we're like, I feel like the 10 to 20 range, Corey, is that the, this draft has significantly jumbled itself in a lot of ways.

And I think it's because of some of these kind of players where we're like, you know, we expected guys like Dvorsoe to be there. We expected guys like Shala to be there or even higher. But it's it's kind of changed. I mean, so as you've, you know,

I know you're kind of towards the tail end of, of making a new list. How have you kind of been able to, at this tournament, has any of that crystallized a little bit better for you? And that, especially in that 10 to 20 range, I feel like in this draft.

is where there's a lot of lack of, like a lack of consensus in terms of what that's going to look like. Yeah, I mean, we kind of say this every year in the summer when we're hyping up the next year's draft. There's a lot changes in the course of a year. You mentioned the years that Shale had, for example. I think Dvorsookie still had a pretty good year, even if it was at the junior level, not at the pro level. But, you know, we thought Braden Yeager scores 30 goals as an underage in the WHL. He's going to score 40. Doesn't even crack the number he scored as a 16-year-old.

in the WHL. So, you know, that's a surprise. You know, there's, you know, you thought Charlie Strable would go in a lineup college. Doesn't do that. You know, so there's all kinds of things that change in the course of a draft season. But I think for me, it's been the strong play of the USA kids. I think Ryan Leonard's going to go really high in the draft. I think he's distinguishing himself in that regard.

I think, you know, if there was, I think that bubble has probably gone a little bit bigger because of the play of Gay-Paro, to be quite honest, he's probably worked his way into that conversation with Barlow, with Shala, with Dvoriski, with, with, depending where you have them. So I think, I think it's, that group is definitely, you know, there's a lot of wingers in there, there's a lot of forwards in there, you know, it's been the story of the draft. It's a pretty forward heavy draft class. We had to figure out where all those guys slot in exactly.

But I would say all those guys, those guys we thought may be. high-end guys, DeVorski-Shale. I don't think they're high-end, but I think they're in the next group. Whereas I think in terms of the high-end guys, I don't think there's anyone at this tournament that's really played their way into there. I think it's been guys outside of this tournament, like, say, David Reimbacher, who's elevated his way into that group over the course of the season. One more guy I want to squeeze in here if we can for the mailbag. We've talked at length about how there's maybe there's a debate at the top goalie in this class. And one of the guys who's been in that conversation is Michael Rubal. Nobody saw more

shots in the preliminary round than Michael Herbal handled them maybe with the exception of the Canada game pretty well putting up some low numbers for Chequia. What's your read on Herbal's tournament so far, Corey? Yeah, I mean, I think we came into the question with an open question, with an open debate on who's going to be the top ranked goalie in this year's draft. I still think it's a rather open debate. You know, it could have been Rebal, who had a really strong start to the year, maybe from about December to February, really tailed off. And then I think his last month in the USHL, it was pretty good. And he has a very strong tournament here, especially in that game against Sweden, where he was outstanding. You know, they were getting outplayed

significantly, and he kept it close right to the very end. So, you know, he's, you know, six, six, good athleticism, good hockey sense. He's a very promising prospect. You know, he came in here, he thought, oh, maybe Carson Bjornison could be that guy. Maybe with a big tournament, he He can be that guy. To this point, as it didn't have that tournament, got blown out against Sweden, et cetera, et cetera.

We'll see how his medal round goes, Max, et cetera. You know, you have the play of Adam Guyon in the Nol, who has been, you know, some good stretches, some not so good stretches,

but, you know, really talented. Remember how dominant he was in the world juniors? I think there are people in the league who think Trey Augustine could still be the first-rank goalie. I don't think his toolkit

is the sexiest of those four, but his production is by far the best of the group. So I think those are the four guys in the conversation. You can ask any scout, and they would probably have, you know, each one would nominate a different guy for the number one. Obviously, not everyone, because there's only four candidates, but you know what I'm trying to say. It's, it's very close between those four. And I don't think, I don't think Rabaal's been, he's been really good, but I don't think he's been so dominant here that he has fundamentally changed what was already a contentious conversation. Yeah. And I would say too, like in a lot of these situations,

not, especially with a goalie like Kourbal, it's, it's not so much the numbers, right? It's not so much how we kind of have to look at the whole package with him. He also was on, you know, the USHL, 12 of the 16 teams in the league make the playoffs. Omaha did not. That just shows you the situation that he was in. And also not just, it just wasn't a good season for, and not a good situation to be in. So, so we, you know, we take into a certain account, absolutely. He's played very well in this tournament and things like that.

I mean, you know, we're looking more at toolkits when it comes to goalies anymore. Yeah, and he's a very good toolkit. I also do wonder when he plays next season. Me too. Can he get into UMass next year? I don't think he's going to go to college next year. I'm not sure you want him back in Omaha next season. All right, good stuff, guys.

We're going to take quick break. We'll come back with a mailbag. Okay, guys, let's get to the mailbag. Quicker one today, but still some good stuff, starting with Blake Murray, who wants to know, aside from David Reimbacher and Axel Sandin Pelica, what are some of the other RHD names to look out for that could spring a surprise going in the first round. We talked about Tom Willander, but he also suggests Hunter Brstevitz, Bo Akey, Oliver Bonk, any of those names or another name you want to point out.

Corey, let's start with you on this one. I don't think Bonk would be a surprise. I would say pretty solid chance he will be a first round. Not a lock by any means, but because it's a 6-2, good skater, showing good offense, playing big minutes on a team going to the conference finals. I think he's above 75% chance to be a first-round pick. We mentioned Tom Willander in the podcast. We'll see how his medal round goes. But I think this is a guy who's trending in that direction.

I don't think he's a lock, but I think I see a reality where Sturback goes late, one, early two. Strong, not really a great year in the USHL and Sioux Falls, but really good world juniors. I think he's had a good U18 world. Not an exceptional one, but he's been good. He's six-two. He skates well, he competes well. Been the top power play guy for Slovakia here. I think that's a guy who is a right-handed defenseman who can go pretty high.

Chris, what have you thought when you've watched him this season? Yeah, I mean, I think it's been a little up and down. He was another one of those players that was on a team that missed the playoffs this year. So, you know, they didn't necessarily have the puck a whole bunch. And it forced him to learn a lot. I felt like he got better as a season we're on in terms of his defensive capabilities. I agree completely with the skating. I think there's a lot of things there.

You see that, you know, we're talking about tool kits. He's got one. He's got one that definitely speaks to you. I think there's certainly going to be some teams towards the end of that first round. that are going to be taking a long look at him. You know, it's just, it's such a strange year for defensemen in general for this draft. And, you know, we've got only a couple of guys that, you know, we feel like are pretty high picks. And then the back half of this first round could have a slight run on them.

And I think, you know, if that does happen, it could be guys like Sturback. I think Bonk is in the, I think he's pretty firmly in the mix for that, that first round category as well. Guys like Brestevich and, you know, I really like the skating ability. Same with Boe Akey. Like, you know, I think that there's, there's something. there. But I just don't think that there's enough to say very comfortably that their first round draft.

I don't think, yeah, they're not first rounders. They're both good skaters. They both have good offensive puck moving abilities. But I don't think, given that, I think they're both around 511, 6.0. I don't think either of them are dynamic enough to be first round picks. I'm the high guy. I think in the world right now on Gavin McCarthy. I think he's a good player.

I think there's a lot of rhymes. Like, I don't, when I see a lot of lists, I see where they have stir back. I don't understand what the difference between him and McCarthy is, frankly, be quite honest. I think they're both good skaters, similar size, right shots, both physical, limited off, you know, limited but good enough offense. So I see some, I see the lines drawing there. I think McCarthy and Willander, who are both going to be you, are both guys who would be in that conversation in terms of right-handed defense men who could be relatively high draftics. Logan Horn has one that I think is directed toward Corey. Why do you think you're so much higher

on Daniel Boot and Dimitri Simashev than the general consensus? Is there something you think others are missing or overlooking in their game's projections. Obviously, Logan here is talking about, you know, kind of the public analysts because, you know, I assume, unless Logan knows something, knows somebody in the NHL circles, I think that's what we're talking about here. Yeah, I just think they, there's a couple things. It's a toolkit. I think they're both premium athletes.

You know, boot 6'5, instead of 6'4. They both skate really well for guys that size. I think they both have good offensive abilities. It's not elite, but good, especially boot. I think, you know, they take a lot of boxes. they were big parts of an elite junior team in Russia this year. That local team ran over teams frequently, and then they were playing big roles on that team.

And I think if they were both in the OHL, I think it would be no conversation that they would be high draft picks. I think it's a little bit of outside of mind, no international tournaments, the Russia variable, et cetera. But everything that I've seen is I see, you know, like I said, premium athletes, good offensive abilities, good track records. Like I think they tick a lot of the things. things you look for in a relatively high traffic.

All right. Jan wants to know. We'll go to Chris here. Do you have a pro comp for Will Smith? And Vince A compliments that question with, curious where you would rank Will Smith compared to where Tim Stutzler was coming out. Ooh. Oh, compared to where Tim Stutzler.

Okay. Well, that's different. Quite. I actually might have him ahead of him at the same age, but like, or at least similarly, I may not have in terms of similarly. similarly, in terms of like where I have like the projection, obviously not now, Stutzel is, like, would be far ahead right now. But, um, but no, I think, I think they're both like pretty similar grades coming out.

Yeah, yeah, I would think so too. I mean, like in terms of like physical makeup and different things and like style of play, I see a lot of, you know, like Troy Terry and in, uh, in a Will Smith, you know, in terms of the skill level, being a guy that can be a good shot past threat, um, you know, just a lot of different, you know, just highly intelligent in terms of the way that he moves the puck. I mean, I think that that's one of them. I mean, I've talked, I think just the dynamic puck skills that Will Smith has is such a separating factor. And it was something that we, at the same age, we didn't necessarily see as commonly with Troy Terry until he really started to come into

his own as, as a college player. But, you know, like that's, that's kind of in the range in terms of, And also, Troy is a little bit kind of on the linkier side, a little bit, you know, not necessarily going to give you a lot of the physical elements that, that you, that, you know, you'd like to see in a center or, you know, even a wing at this point. But that's, that's probably the guy that I'd say. And then in terms of, you know, where, where he would rank compared to Stutzla, you know, in that draft, you know, I think that the skating, the skating is probably the biggest separating factor with Stutzla being a far better skater. but I will say that Will Smith has made of significant strides in his skating ability over the last couple of, over the last season plus, which I think has helped him, you know, more solidify himself as a top tier prospect. So, you know, if I'm looking between the two of them and I'm, you know, at the same age, at the same age, I probably would have had Smith ahead. Yeah, because I think, yeah, you would have said it would have been wrong, but I would have said Smith's puck game, his skill, as hockey sense is better at the same age. but I think that would have been wrong in hindsight

given what suits will show in the NHL, but definitely the skating would have been a differentiator there. Yeah, big differentiator, yeah. I've used Kuznetsov as a comp for Smith. Max, I gave more of aggressive one the other day. You said Ryan Nugent Hopkins. Yeah, I think there's some rhyme to it. I could see that.

I can see that one too. I did talk to a scout the other day who has some skepticism, and he asked me, I think a really good question. he said compare them at the same age was the difference between Smith and Jonathan Drew-in and Chris watched Drew-in when he when he saw him at the same age yeah and I had Drew-en ahead of oh oh I had a really high too now that is you know I had him ahead of him in McKinnon that year so that was the first year I did a national draft ranking so yeah and

let's not talk about that yeah but you know not all those guys follow that path right I mean right right Patrick Kane had a lot of those kind of rhymes in his game too right Right, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Mitch Marner as well. Like, you know, and I think this is an interesting question, not to drag Smith because I think he will be an excellent, potentially even a star in NHL player. There is a question that I think is reasonable, especially when you start thinking of

these comparables, is he for sure an NHL sentiment? Right. Yeah, that's definitely been one thing that has been in my ear from scouts throughout the year. Is he a center? And does he do enough at that? the center position, you know, and I, I mean, to me, I, I still believe he is. I know that there's plenty of people that would say that he, you know, I think that his defensive game needs to come along in order for him to play consistently. I don't worry so much about like compete. I know there

have been some questions about compete. There's certainly questions about physicality, which I mean, just at his, his size and his strength, like, it's just not necessarily possible for him. But, you know, I think that overall, I still think that the way that he drives play, the intelligence with the puck on a stick, he's a guy you want to have the puck and off a lot. And that's why I think he could still be a center. I think he's a center too. But the one data point that keeps coming back to my mind is Clayton Keller and how he was immediately a wing the second he signed in the pros and never moved back. Even though he was a center and an excellent center who played up his age group.

played with the 18th when he was at the 17th is what I mean you know this was a guy who was an outstanding junior player and played the middle on that on that line with keifer bellows and joey and then was a was a wing pretty much right away yeah and and how do we and also like just in that same same vein you know Trevor zeggress does get moved to center you know the ducks take time to move him to center how do we feel about that that you know that kind of direction A better skater than Zegrois, too. And it might depend who the ducks draft this year. Because Zegroes is going to stay at center, right?

He's going to stay at center. Yeah, very well could. Was Drew Ann's pace? I mean, would that be the difference with him and Smith at that age? No, I think Drew Nguyen was a really good skate. I call it me. But you watched Jonathan, Drew Nett and Nathan McKinn on that halif. As a junior.

Yeah. It was. It was, and then the year after when it was Drew Nguyen and Niklai Eliers there, like, that was just like, that was just like, that was just like, you know, make a bag of popcorn and turn on the TV and have a good time kind of thing. Sorry, Corey. Yeah. I thought Drew N was the next Patrick Kane for sure coming out of there. It was crazy.

I was in school. So this is a genuine question. I'm just trying to think of like what based on pro-Juran, what I could have seen as the differentiator. I think the issue with Drew-en became to compete. I think that was the biggest issue with him when he turned a pro. And that's where I see a difference between him and Will Smith. Not that Will Smith is the ultimate competitor, but I do think. that there is a higher drive to him than there was to Drew N at the same age.

But that, if you're going to pick a knit with Smith, some people have raised compete as one of it, various times of the year. I don't think anyone's doing it today in the middle of this tournament. And I think that was the issue with Drew-in when he turned pro. I personally did not see that in him when he was a draft eligible. I thought the compete was fine. This was a guy who went to the world jeers, a 17-year-old and was a top player for Canada. This was a guy who put a, you know, a QMJL team on his back. like along with McKinnon, mind you, even though I think McKinn,

in that Memorial Cup, McKinn outplayed Drew and Sidney. Yeah, yeah. It's got interesting, I'll move on here in a second, but it's kind of an interesting needle thread here because we're talking about,

on one hand, liking him better than Stutzel at the same age, not as much as Drouette at the same age, and then we'll see what happens here, but just kind of a little, I'll find the needle. It's an exact science, Max. It's an inexact science.

Yeah, welcome to the headaches of our lives. Yeah, exactly. Patrick McConnell, what are the Sends missing to become a cup contender. We can make up some time on this one because anybody have an answer other than goal tending. Nope. The goal is the big one.

I think the roster in itself is not fully fleshed out yet by any means. They're trending in the right direction. They are a good team. We'll see what they look like next year with the full year of Jacob Chikrin. You know, it's fair to say based on how that second half of the year, what that trade didn't age incredibly well for that team. we have to see how next season go before we can fully grade it out. But, you know, this team wasn't, you know, they're good.

I think they are a league average roster, but there's more pieces to fill in there. And they have some good young guys. We'll see whether they come in and help their team in any material way next season. But it's more than just a goal way. I think they need either more young guys to step up or to add just more veteran death pieces that organization too. All right. Jackson says, is Leo Carlson truly projected as a franchise changing player or rather a productive

first liner? This is a good question on the lines of what we've talked about a few times on this show in terms of how do you kind of sort through what people talk about is like the super deep top of the draft. And it's super deep and that it has a few really special guys. But I think, I think Jackson's on to something here and that Carlson probably more of like a good first liner more than a true franchise changer. Is that fair? Right. My comp for him is Miko Ranchin. Miko Ranchin is an absolutely outstanding hockey player, who is a Stanley Cup champion, has been a huge part of that Stanley Cup champion.

But do you think if Nathan McKinnon and Kail McCarr weren't on that team, that that's the kind of guy that you can kind of build around and can carry a team by himself? I would say, no, I think he's a hell of a hockey player and deserves a ton of accolades. But because Carlson's, particularly his season, skating isn't dimensional enough.

I wonder if he can be that, I wonder if he could be the guy on a contending team. Right. And I think there's, there's a difference between a franchise changing player and a franchise building block. And, a guy that can be a cornerstone prospect for your team, which I think Leo Carlson can be.

But again, we're talking about semantics and different, you know, when we're talking, okay, Connor Bedard could be a franchise changing player. Adam Fantilli possibly, you know, think he could potentially be a franchise changing player. You know, Leo Carlson, then we're saying, okay, well, this guy can probably play at the top of your lineup. He's probably going to be a significant player for your team.

And if you're, you know, depending on what franchise he goes to, depending on what they already have, you know, more than likely if it's a team that's at the beginning stages of a rebuild process, he's a good foundational piece for that rebuild. He's not the piece. One interesting thing on Carlson just to end, and I think it'll be kind of something to monitor here as we get closer to the the world championships. I'm not sure he's going to make the world championships. From what I've heard, it's like, I think he's on the bubble based on how many NHL players they get. He has been playing center for the Swedish senior team and doing so quite well.

And now if we're talking about him, not as a wing, but as a center, you know, I'm not saying he elevates to like the fantilli level, but I think now it's a little bit more of an interesting discussion point. Yep. All right. Adam H. Do you think Dvorzky has sufficient grit to project out? is a high-quality playoff performer.

He seems to have that extra grit, whether a 2C or 3C, if he can elevate come playoff time, he's going to be great to get anywhere after 6. I guess I probably didn't need to read the addendum. But that question, Dvorsky, gritty enough to be a top 6 center in the playoffs. Maybe.

I think he competes hard. I think he has some physicality. What I don't really like is where he doesn't tend, if you look at where his offices came from this season, it was a lot of perimeter. I think because his shot is so good. he, a lot of shooters, I think, get that habit of shooting from the outside too much. So I would like to see more interior offensively.

You saw that in the game against Germany, got a lot of inside goals, you know, but I think I would like to see that more consistently. But off the puck, he's definitely physical, responsible. But so I think maybe the answer to that question would be kind of, but maybe let's see, added layers to it. Yeah, I think I'd be more concerned if I didn't think that he competed, you know, like he does. He does. He's, that, that's the thing where it's like, you know, what I think grit is kind of a relative term, you know, in terms of what it means to certain people.

Does it mean he's physical? Does it mean he's playing in the corners? Does it mean he's, you know, dynamic at the net front or whatever? Or he can handle punishment. But I don't, I don't think compete will be a large concern for him. And that, to me, is, you know, the defining characteristic of grit. All right. We save the most divisive one for last.

And we'll go to you here, Chris. John D wants to know what is the proper topping for a hot dog at a hockey game. At a hockey game, it's different. I think at a baseball game it changes. And I think in a dinner setting, it also changes. In a hockey game, I think you got to keep it simple. Do you have a flow chart for this? I could break one.

You should. I was only prompted that there would be a hot dog question. Born and raised in Chicago, this is a very serious matter to me. But I think specifically at a hockey game, game. There's, you don't want to have too much mess. You, you're, you're, you're, you want to make sure that it's very portable. You want to make sure that it is very, um, you know, that you're not going to have any slippage. You know, you don't need any slippage. So, um, you know, I think that the best way to do that is to keep it simple, keep it with mustard. If you throw ketchup on that thing, I guess it's,

that's your preference, but I think you're nuts. Um, you know, and then the, the only additional condiment that I think is acceptable in this setting, um, is, is if, if the place offers grilled onions, man, because that can really make a hot dog sing, I'm telling you. But yeah, I would say leave the relish aside, keep it with simple. Mustard is the best way to go. If they offer you a pickle spear, by all means, take that dang pickle spear, but not relish. I mean, that's too messy. So, but yeah, and even grilled onions are too.

But I mean, if it's worth it and I think grilled onions are, then you say, okay, that's worth it. But yeah, I think keeping it simple with mustard is purely acceptable as well. I think we're on the same page here, Chris. Usually, I'm a Detroiter. Chili is my go-to. I'm not doing that at a hockey game. I will say, I do want pickle on the hot dog. I would prefer it diced dill, but I do not want the relish.

The relish is not. The sweet relish is not. That's a killer. Nope. Bad stuff. Corey, you got to take here or you're good to go? Corey's giving me the thumbs up. He has no hot dog opinions at all.

I feel like you guys cover the basis. That's the most passionate I've heard. Chris talked all podcasts be quite honest. That's right. We'll wrap it there. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Athletic Hockey Show's prospect series. Follow us on YouTube at YouTube.com slash at The Athletic Hockey Show. You can also catch more of Chris over at Flow Hockey and his podcast talking Hockey Sense. And right now, you can get a one year subscription to The Athletic for just $1 a month.

And you visit theathletic.com slash hockey show. Talk you soon.