The Athletic Hockey Show - Unceremonious exit of Duncan Keith with Chicago Blackhawks. Pekka Rinne retires from the NHL and Scott Wheeler breaks down the top US prospects available in the draft.

Episode Date: July 13, 2021

On the USA edition of TAHS Craig Custance and Sean Gentille talk about the lack of fanfare in Chicago with Duncan Keith being dealt to Edmonton from the Blackhawks. The guys discuss the continued distraction in Chicago, with the sexual assault investigation ramping up, plus, what future could general manager Stan Bowman have with the team, after the investigation is completed?Craig and Sean turn the page on the Stanley Cup Final, and welcome Scott Wheeler ahead of the NHL draft. The guys get into Scott's moving story on NHL prospect Mackie Samoskovich, a native of Newport Connecticut, and a Sandy Hook alumnus. The guys look at some of the top eligible American born players, with the draft 10 days out. Custance and Gentille give a stick tap to Pekka Rinne who retired this morning after spending his entire NHL career with the Nashville Predators, and the guys wonder if the New York Islanders should pursue Vladimir Tarasenko and that the Sabres shouldn't be in a hurry to deal Jack Eichel, before the NHL expansion draft. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey, this is Craig Custins of The Athletic, joined, as always, on Tuesday on the Americans edition of the Athletic Hockey Podcast by Sean Gentilly. And boy, we are now, we are now as revved up for the off season. It's no longer hypothetical, Sean. We've got trade requests. We have actual trades. We have, there's so much in a draft. We've got, there's, I'm excited. This is, this is the best, best time of year.

I don't think the off season actually starts until I gin up some opinions on draft guys. Like, I've only gotten there in the last couple of weeks. I'm like, all right. I think I know what I'm talking about. And the main reason I'm there, obviously, is because of guys like our guest, Scott Wheeler. He keeps all of us plebs who don't have time to or don't have the inclination to watch tape on all these guys. donation. What do I want to not watch any tape on these people I'm going to pull with the

Yeah, right. Any shortcuts I can take, any opportunities to not do my job, I'm all for. And, man, Wheels provides that for us, right? Yeah. Scott Wheeler coming up with conversation. It was awesome. We've already recorded it and I can, you know, it's really good and it's worth your time. So now I wasn't even going to go here right away, but you got it.

What's your strongest draft opinion? What's Sean Gentile is, like, player that he loves, even though you haven't either watched any of these guys, and you're basing it only on your reading of Corey Praman, who's dead to us, and Scott Wheeler, who's the best. Corey Pramond, who is dead to us and will remain dead to us as our chief rival on the, uh. I've fallen in love with William on the Friday show. That's rhyme. That's my. That's my. I mean, we're going back to what we talked about last week, right? where it's like Eklund's great. And I, the, the scouting reports for Kent Johnson just fast to me because he's like

not that great of a skater, but he's super skilled and the ceiling's high, but the floor is pretty low too. Like, I'm all, I'm all ready for it, man. Let's go. Yeah. Again, I've never seen William Ecclin play. No. I wouldn't even know.

He could, he could walk into this room and say, hey, I'm William Maclin. And I'd be like, all right. Somebody we do know well that we've been covering a long. time, though, is Duncan Keith. And I know the trade went down yesterday. So the way the internet works and Twitter, by this time this drops, we will all have moved on to the next thing. But I do want to talk a bit because I'm seeing a lot of hand-wringing coming from Edmonton. And boy, did the oilers screw up here. There's terrible cap management, et cetera. Not saying any of that's invalid. I think that the majority of the noise seems to be coming from Edmonton. It's our job to

give the American perspective, the Chicago Blackhawks traded one of the most important players in franchise history, Sean. And it was like, yeah, time to move on, I guess. We created some I feel like every week we end up talking about something that Lazarus wrote, right? Like, we end up having, like, Mark Lazarus Corner where we spend five minutes talking about, you know, his latest bit. But I thought he nailed it with Duncan Keith because that was my reaction, too. I mean, I think part of it was the nature of the trade where it happened in slow motion over the course of like five days. So maybe the fan base or whatever sort of resign themselves to the fact that it happened

or that it would happen. Part of it was the way Keith played last year. He stunk. Like that's just brass tacks on it. So I think maybe people were ready for that kind of split to take place. he turns 38 in a couple days on and on. There's reasons where it seemed like it was a soft exit for Keith out of Chicago. But man, to see it in practice yesterday was wild.

Because this is two-time Norris winner, had all of his teeth knocked out, the best offenseman on, you know, maybe this, we'll say the second best team of this era. and it was like Michigan Stinsonard of course whatever but it was like it was like okay he's gone like that's it's it what's next

which is just wild to me and I think what Lazz hit on too is that this is like obviously Cain and Taves are still there but you're talking about a core of seven players and then Joel Quinball that have just steadily

over the last few years made their exit. So I guess it's just that the, that Blackhawks fans and in Chicago and whatever else were just, they watched Marion Hose leave and they watched Brandon Sade get traded again. And they watch Brent Cbrook retire. And you, and you have all these guys that have made their eggs already. So it's like they've, they're just, you know, they've already begun the bargaining process and, you know, with all this. But man, again, it's wild because Keith was, you know, for a stretch, You could argue that he was the best player on that team, period. And his exit was pretty unceremonious.

And there was also a stretch where it's funny how everything has changed, where Duncan Key's contract was the best in hockey, the best, where, you know, he was playing, because he had one of those long-term deals, he was playing at half price. And everybody, like, the Blackhawks, by the way, were the first lightning where everybody was mad about their cap management. Like, they squeezed Patrick Kane in the playoffs. Like, all the stuff that the Lightning are doing now is all,

this is, you know, nothing's new, right, under the sun. And you got, you had Duncan Keith who people were just livid because it was a cheater contract. Marion hosts a cheater contract. You know, not me saying that. That was. And now, you know, now it's like, oh, terrible contract. And it's one thing, like I saw a tweet from somebody yesterday that was like, hey, everybody,

can we stop bailing out the Blackhawks? Like, the one thing they, you know, they, this is a really tough contract to move. They get anything in return for it is interesting. And now they've got flexibility. Stashing Hosa Seabrook retiring You know you can go down the list of ways that Of ways that they have been

bailed out seems harsh I guess But it's but it's but it's true It's true So yeah they are they're setting themselves up I mean no money retained in sending Keith out Which is obviously the bit that The bit that Oilers fans

are more livid about than anything else, right? He's, you know, yes, his salary goes down. I think that's a big part of it. He's under, he's at 2.1 this year and 1.5 the year after still has the 5.5 and change hit. So whatever. But, man, it's another, yeah, it is. It's a wild. It's, it's another example of that team setting themselves up for what comes next.

And I think everybody was prepped for the pain to last a little bit, longer than it seems like it's going to. And yeah, like they're like last, last season was weird and they're in a, they're in a kind of an odd, you know, no man's land with, with TAVES for plenty of reasons, Ian Kane. But, but the flexibility that they've gotten with the way this has ended, whether it's Hosa, Keith, you go back, like it's, they're going to have a shot it, it, it building it back up, I think a little bit sooner than people may have anticipated five

years ago, let's say. This would almost be like Crystal Tenth. and getting traded in Pittsburgh and had been rumored for so long and everyone just being like, oh, it finally happened and what's for lunch? I didn't want to bring that up because I'm like mindful of talking about that. I'm based in Pittsburgh, like, whatever. Oh, you are? I don't know if, I don't know if you know this about me.

It doesn't, it doesn't come up that often. Yeah. I definitely didn't ask Scott, Scott on the spot for his, for his best PA prospect. But, no, I, truthfully, like, I was, that's what I was thinking of yesterday is like, is this what it's going to look like whenever Chris LaTang who's the obvious analog for the penguins, the other dominant team of the last 15 years? Is this what it's going to look like when he leaves town? And Chris Latang is a lightning rod.

I think he's been weirdly underappreciated by a huge chunk of the fan base for a lot of reasons that we don't need to get into here. But I can guarantee you that if and when it ends for Chris Lattang and bits. whether it's tomorrow or in three years or whenever, it is not going to look the way it looked like for Duck and Keith yesterday. We are not going to have the same conversation. How much do you think it's because of the lawsuit and the allegations against Brett Aldrich that, you know,

you can understand Blackhawks fans not wanting to go nostalgic right now? They have a lot on their plate right now. So I get it. And I'm not knocking Blackcox fans for like for not. not laying for not laying like rose petals at Duncan Keith's feet on his way out. Like it makes a lot. The reaction makes sense for, for plenty for plenty of reasons. Like that overshadows everything though right now.

Absolutely. Absolutely. That's the biggest story. And so it's like you're like, and I know and I've talked to those guys, it's like, you know, how much hockey do you write or, you know, it's this weird balance. We're like, this is the most important story and we're going to keep reporting it. And it's timely because Scott Powers, Katie String and Mark Lazar's had a story dropping today. on the Blackhawks legal strategy. Which is, which is, which is repulsive.

Like it just like they're, they're fighting to keep this still underwraps as much as they possibly can. Right. Like that's that's the upshot of it. And again, like read read the story by those three. They go into it in depth. But like, you know, you keep seeing drips and draps from this. and that overhangs everything. So I think that's, that's a, that's a gigantic part about it.

And it sucks. Like, it sucks for a million reasons. Somewhere down the list is that it's stopping guys from Keith, I think, from getting the kind of, the kind of, you know, treatment on the way out that they should. It's a shame. It's just this weird thing because I think that maybe that's part of why we're hearing, you know, there's, you're not going to, you're not going to like throw bouquets at Stan Bowman, right? like for clearing cap space when his name is all over, you know, this other coverage.

Like, oh, yeah, way to go, Stan Bowman for getting a conditional second back for Duncan Keith. Like, like, what do you do? Like, you can't, you can't give him credit for that because he's, because he seems to have failed in so many other much more important ways aside from winning a trade, right? So that, yeah, that's, that's all, that's all in the air too. But it has. It's made, it's made for a weird 24 hours here. I thought in that coverage, you know, one of the, there was a. quote from a league executive in the story today that in talking about Stan Bowman that he

the quote is he's proceeding as if he's in charge and he's going to be in charge for the next X amount of years of his contract and that's how he's conducting his business he's conducting black hawks business that hasn't changed and and you know at some point it'll be interesting um there you know he's going to have to go in front of the media media they're going to make a draft pick they're going to make a trade and and like they've again in the story they talk the blackhawks have gone into bunker mode and we when you're you know a fate one of the faces of the franchise and you your job is to discuss with the media you can't like you can't exist in bunker mode he can put his head down and he can try to whistle through the graveyard for the time being

but he's not going to be able to do that forever and we're and we're coming up to the draft and we're coming up to you know this this weird little post cup lull that we have in the in the schedule is is going to end and he's going to have to answer for stuff so So he can focus now on trying to win trades and squeeze a second conditional out of the oilers rather than just a third and whatever, but not going to be able to do it forever. Yeah. You're right now that trade, that trade, and maybe this is happening again with Ikel and Teresanko. Like it does seem like it's happened in slow motion is a really good way to put it. And, you know, so raises the question is what's the next one on the docket?

How many times have we seen the time frames change on Eichol and now Teresenko? Like we are six weeks ago or a month ago, we're like, watch out. Ickel could get traded during the playoffs. And it's like, well, now it might not happen until after the expansion draft again. It's it's anti-climactic, I think, if nothing else. Well, I think part of it is, you know, if you're acquiring players for Eichael or you're sending them the other way. Like this, that complicates all the work that teams have put into their expansion draft protected list. So now you've got to add more players to the list. Even you saw some of that

with the Duncan Key thing. Now, you know, what do they do with some of the players they have self-assigned? There's, there's all these complicating factors. So that's why I think we're going to get, we have to get through the expansion draft before. And then I think there's just going to be this flurry of activity. Nine out of 10 moves should wait until after the expansion draft. Like, like, yes, there's some stuff you could do if you're a team who needs to make moves to set up your protect list the way that you want those moves exist but for the most part you'll be much better served waiting which is why the initial you know a few weeks ago where it's like well you can get maybe we will get this but before the expansion draft the logical question when you hear that

is like is why why would we why would why would the sabers move move jack Eichel now versus versus in, you know, the 19 days or whatever. I thought another name that was thrown in the mix today, and his name has kind of been out there kicked around as a trade option, was Rick Carbonello had a story and Pavel Buccinevich. And, you know, I think part of it is he's got a contract coming up. Carpe spoke with his agent, Todd Diamond, who said, you know, they expect to have some conversations

and that the Rangers will qualify him. But you also have an organization there that's loaded. with good young forwards, specifically on the wing. And, you know, if you're trying to make an upgrade or, you know, carpet even floated this, Teresenko, maybe this is where you build a Teresanko deal around. Can you imagine a Rangers team with the talent they have, Panarin and Teresenko?

I mean, what percentage would Teresenko need to come back for you, for it to be worth it? Because everyone's concerned because he's had two serious shoulder surgeries and there might not be a third based on based on what we've heard. Like he's right. He's on the razor's edge with this. So like, whatever. You're not getting, you're not getting the tank from five years ago, probably. But still a pretty good player. If you get like 75% Teresenko, like is that is that good enough to make to make the Godfather offer?

And again, we have a package from from Jeremy Rutherford that's like in a bunch of, of other writers that are sort of trying to, you know, postulate what a, what, what, what a Tarasenko deal would look like. And they're, they're asking for a lot as, as is understandable. They are. And, but I mean, you're right. This isn't, this isn't Teresenko from five years ago. Like, this is, this is heavy mileage, playoff runs, you know, I, he's a tank for sure. But, like, I mean, it was only one line in Carpe's story. I think the Rangers, it makes almost no sense to me like what what giant

hole are you feeling by bringing you in and then you've like you've got young players you're gonna have to sign like it's a cap it's a cap can well because like you're you're just moving you're moving one you're moving a certain kind of problem for another certain kind of problem where it's like we have we have too many

we have too many wingers we're going to have to pay them at some point so you go out and you move one of those wingers for another winger that that eats up gap space and kind of stops you from setting your salary structure for the next however many years. I mean, would it be fun? Like, absolutely.

Everyone loves Teresenko and, you know, Panarin and whatever. Everybody, I think, on some level, it would be fun to watch the Rangers go all in. I think it's... I'm not bored with it. I'm not saying it would be fun. Totally. It's always fun in general to watch teams go all in. Everyone's like, yeah, like, you're the Kings trade, trade, trade Tercot for Jack Eichol.

Like, whatever. we're all rooting for that on some level just because it's a great story. But from a hockey standpoint, like, as juicy as it is, I don't think it makes a ton of sense. All right. So Jeremy Rutherford reports in his story. So Teresanko has a list with as many as 10 teams in which he approve a deal. J.R. speculates that there's five that that makes sense in terms of what he's hearing that Teresanko would accept. the Rangers, the Islanders, the Golden Knights, the Bruins, and the Flyers. Is there a team in that group that it makes... So we're going to...

We'll remove the Rangers from the equation. I don't think it makes a ton of sense, even though I'm sure Teresanko would love to go to New York. Is there a team in that group where you're like, that? I like that. I think that's good. I love him on the Islanders, dude. I like that. Love it.

Do you? Love it. Yeah. Like, I'm always for the Islanders trying to add offensive pieces. You know, like, I think that was what we talked about, you know, in the run up to the deadline with them because, you know, they lose, they lose Andrews Lee and blah, blah, right? So, so everyone's like, oh, go out and get Kyle Palmieri. It happens. Basically, it worked.

Yeah. Delayed. It worked. Basically. You don't have to modify it. It was a time release on it, like, where it looked like it was, it looked like it was going to backfire a bit, like in the regular season. But all as well, it ends well. Like, he looked great there.

I love the idea of the islanders of the islanders taking a swing. And they have, you know, J.R. and Corey talk about this too. I think Noah Dobson is the name there just because they're, because they are fairly stacked along the blue line. So they would be dealing from a position of strength. And we have seen Lou like with the Palmary deal, like he'll spend the cap. He doesn't, he doesn't care. He'll add, there's no, there's no governor there.

Like, if he wants, if he wants a guy, he can, he's obviously got carte blanche to go, to go get him. I think that'd be fun. I would be, I like that. I'm with you. I'll go with the Islanders as the fit. I would like to see. And Lou has a history of going out and getting Russians and he's, you know what I mean? Like, that's, that's part of this.

In Russian players love, love, love New York. I know, I know, I know, you know, Nassau County or wherever those guys would live isn't, isn't, isn't quite the same. you know, Brighton Beach or whatever, but man, that's a, it's a fit, it's a fit for a lot of reasons. I think we should adopt the Islanders in the show as the American, the American team that nobody covers really, I'm with it. I mean, at a national level, you never, no one, they always get disrespected and here they, all they've done is gone to two straight conference finals, have the best

coach in the game in very trots, maybe, John Cooper probably would have something to say about that, but Lou Lamarillo, I mean, come on, that we should, that should be like the unofficial official team of this hot- They were one game

from winning a Stanley Cup. Yeah. You know, in retrospect. They'd have beat

Montreal. They would have beat, you're right. And it was a one-nothing game.

Like they, in seeing what Tampa did to Montreal and just dismantling the Canadians,

just, you know, systematically that, like, it made with the islanders. A boring, a boring series,

by the way. Like, we can say it. It was a, it was a dud. I had to do, I did do the live blog for game

four. what a slog. I very rarely feel the way about Cup finals games. I'm like, God, Christ, I got to watch this now. So there are one, there are two goals away from winning a Stanley Cup this year. If they beat, if they could have won 2-1 in game seven instead of won nothing. Yep. Yeah.

That's, that. The official team of the Tuesday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. All right. We're Islanders fans now. Oh, we're just going to go by my, I'm, I'm going to go by my, I'm, I'm, I'm go buy my pull of jersey like now. We are thrilled to be joined now by prospect writer for the athletic. In my opinion, pound for pound, the best prospect writer we have, way better than Corey

Pranman, probably by quite a bit. Yeah, like a lot. And we like Scott Wheeler so much that he's our first Canadian guest on the All-American American's edition of, yeah, this is, we made it. an exception for you, Scott. A privilege and an honor. Congratulations, buddy. Yes. Congratulations. The plaque, the plaque is in the middle.

We broke the seal here. Scott, I wanted to start, the timing is perfect with this. I want to act like we planned it. And you dropped a story today. It was our A1 offering at the athletic, which goes to all subscribers. It's the biggest story of the day on our site every day.

And you had, you filled that slot today with your story. on Malky Sam, oh, I was going to try to pronounce it, Samskovich, is that right? Yeah, Samoskovich. Samoskovich. I even prepped it too and asked you. And he, it's a story of him. He's a projected first or second round pick who was, who was part, him and his family part of the Sandy Hook shootings.

And it's, in an emotional read, it's, you know, it's really, by the end of it, you're like, it's, you know, it's about life. It's about hockey. it's about using hockey as an escape. How did that story come together, Scott? Well, it really just started. I mean, in research for the draft a couple of years ago, I couldn't help but notice that it was just listed in his bio as being from Newtown,

Connecticut. And then from there, it was okay, doing the mental math in my head of how old would he have been. Does he have siblings and family that live in the area, that kind of a thing? And then you obviously hope and pray that none of them were impacted in any sort of fatal way, obviously. Thankfully, that wasn't a part of this story. All three of their kids had attended the school. Sandy Hook was sort of from kindergarten through grade four. Him and his twin sister, Maddie, were in grade five when it happened. So they were, it happened in December. They were really in the early stages of their life at a new school and would have just left Sandy Hook

that spring when they graduated, right? So they'd been there for four years. They knew the faculty, they knew the students, some of the teachers who were lost, unfortunately, had taught them. So they were lucky that it hadn't impacted them sort of firsthand, but definitely secondhand. So then it was just, in terms of the story process, was just about reaching out to them and feeling it out, because you don't want it to be exploitative. You don't want it to be something that it's not. if this wasn't something that impacted them in any serious way, then I didn't want to write it that way. I was happy to write a hockey story about Mackey as a prospect,

if that's what it was. But it did impact them in a serious way. And in particular, his father, Fred, who ended up on the scene that day and spent the entire day on the scene that day and was sort of helping to direct traffic as things piled up, as cars and cop cars and state troopers and ambulances piled up. He would just so happen to be driving through as all of this was taking place.

And him and his wife were sitting in the diner, literally almost right next to the school as all of the cop cars started racing by. So then it was really about that day and all of their experiences in that day. His older sister, Melissa, has won world championships for the United States. Is a very accomplished hockey player at the pinnacle of her sport in her own way. And she was away at Chadik that day, sort of following it on her phone and following it on Twitter and worrying about whether their school was impacted and not knowing whether their school was a part of it. And just all of that sort of wrapped up into this story about ultimately that day and their experiences that day. But then also just their town and how they came together in the aftermath and what that day has meant for their family and their new appreciation for what their family really means to them.

So it wasn't just about that day and it shouldn't have been, but they were very kind and generous to really relive it with me and walk me through it because they absolutely did not have to do that. Just I'm assuming everyone listening is familiar with the story, but that's the Sandy Hook shooting is when the gunman walked in. 26 people were killed, including 20 children. And, you know, in our country, that's as many terrible. incidences as there are or have been since then and continue to be, that that's one that I think is stuck with a lot of people for a lot of different reasons. And clearly in reading the story, the detail in which the parents and the kids remembered everything, right to, you know, sitting in the diner and what they're thinking is the police cars drive by and everything, it's, you

know, clearly made a huge impact. And I'm wondering, did you get any sense of, you know, how they balance such a tragic event, a life-altering event with, you know, something, I don't want to say trivial is hockey, but it's like, how do you think it impacted their path in a sport? Well, it was funny. The first time that both Patty and Fred, and funny's the wrong word, but the first time that Patty and Fred sort of took a deep breath, they were both very emotional during my conversations. Fred, the father in particular, was very, very emotional in our conversations. And the first time that they ever really lightened up and brightened up was when they started laughing about how that weekend they faced a decision on sort of really what to do they were kind of feeling lost the

parents in particular were really grappling with it um melissa flew home early for her christmas break uh to sort of just to sort of just be with her family and they just didn't really know what to do did they sort of stick around and lay low in town or did they sort of get out of town and get the kids thinking about something else and what they ultimately ended up doing was renting ice on a rink outside of town in a nearby town and just sort of leaving town for the weekend to go stick the three kids on a hockey rink and just let them do that to escape.

And the way that they talked about hockey and their connection as a family, that's really what it's been all about always for them. It's pretty unconventional, I would say, to have a family of three hockey players and two of them be girls. We hear so many stories about brothers, right? and these NHL brothers who fall in their footsteps.

But really for Mackie, his idol is his big sister. And the three of them have always shared that. They have a rink in their backyard, which Fred joked with me. You don't find many hockey rinks in backyards in Connecticut. And hockey is just everything to them. It's always been their escape. They laughed about how they didn't use, they didn't have vacations growing up. They didn't go to the Caribbean or go to Disney.

Disney World. Their vacations were to Philadelphia and Boston and Toronto and Edmonton every weekend for the various hockey tournaments that the three kids were in. So it was always their way of just sort of connecting, of being together, of sort of strengthening the bond that they had as a family. And then obviously the tragedy is a piece of that as well and just what family now means to all five of them and how tight they hold each other. He played for the Chicago Steel. He's headed to Ann Arbor to play for the University of Michigan. And you talk to a few people, you know, Ryan Hardy and you talk to people in the hockey community. Just in terms of his skill set and what he projects, one of the quotes said something along the lines of not a lot of holes in this kid's game. Is he first round material in your mind? Or like where do you see his story ending up on drop? Yeah, he's one of those kids anywhere from kind of 20 to 40.

so he'll be late first early second at the latest i would think um absolutely one of the most gifted players in the class all of i spoke to four or five of his old coaches for this story and they all said the same thing like this kid in terms of his skating and his skill with the puck is right up there in the sort of top ten of this draft um a little bit of work to to do on some of the rest of stuff but he's a legitimate high-end offensive player who is kind of that creator that ryan hardy and Broxian, who previously ran the Chicago program, have done such a good job of bringing into that steel program to make it what it is. I mean, they've got an embarrassment of riches.

We know at Michigan already. He's just going to add to that next year. Okay. So I wanted to clumsily transition because you mentioned Ryan Hardy. And I imagine in the process of getting to do this story and many other talent players have come through this deal, Ryan Hardy has recently got. hired by the Toronto Maple Leafs, a pretty important role. I mean, knowing what you know about Ryan and kind of how the different thinker he is,

and of course, like it was the least surprising hire I've probably ever seen. Like, he just kind of fits into that mindset of what Kyle Dubus is trying to do and surround himself with people that think differently. How do you expect his impact to be in Toronto? Well, I think it's going to be real. It's funny. I texted Ryan as soon as I heard the news that it's been a pleasure knowing him as a source. have fun in the cone of silence, right?

See you later, right? So he, I mean, he's been great to me over the years. He's one of those guys. He was in that hockey expert group text feature that I've done twice, where I invite people to just sort of text with me during a game kind of thing. And he's just been wonderful. And he's one of those guys who just loves to talk as well. Like, he'll just talk and sort of break things down in nuance that I think is pretty

rare among hockey people. He definitely thinks outside of the box, which is something that Kyle has made clear in Toronto is something he covets in the people that he works with and the people he surrounds himself with. They did things completely differently. He was joking with me in the days before he was hired that he was starting to make some enemies in junior hockey up in Canada because they were taking so many players out of the OHL, so many top prospects out of Canada. And even this year out of the BCHL, they brought in Jack Barr. And they tried very hard to recruit Kent Johnson in sort of, pull him away from the BCHL. So they've done it differently. They've been pretty bullish about

recruiting there. And I think that's where his role is going to come in handy. He's got the development aspect. He's worked with a lot of the people who already worked with the Leaps. Obviously, Greg Moore was his coach with Chicago. He's worked with Darrow Belfrey and Adam Nicholas, who also work as skills sort of development people with the Leaps.

So it's becoming a little bit of a Chicago conglomerate in the Leaps sort of front office development team. But I think he'll be really good for them in two ways. one is just recruiting. The least target aggressively players in Europe. We know that. They've gone after a lot of players out of the KHL in recent years.

And I think they'd like to do the same in just in terms of recruiting out of the United States. And Ryan, through Chicago and through his time before that at the National Development Program, just knows it in and out and has the connections there. So I think that will help for the Marleys and the Growlers as they just try to continue to recruit for both of those teams, which is ultimately what he's going to be overseeing. And then the development process, he's just all about that sort of holistic, everything under one roof, top to bottom, everybody's on the same page kind of process. That's what they were in Chicago. And that's what the Leaps have tried to do through all three levels of their sort of professional organization in Toronto.

So I just think he'll be a natural fit. And I'm just really happy for him as well because he's a wonderful guy. You mentioned losing them as a source. You can just slide someone into that space. You know, I'm always amazed, whether it's you or the villain Corey Pranman, I'm just amazed at the breadth and depth of the well that you guys have to draw from just from people to talk to in general about these guys. Like the amount of contact that you guys have with development guys or junior coaches

or, you know, college staffers or whatever is honestly, it's mind-boggling to me. So how's that, how do you know, you balance that in general, including this time of year, because I know you guys constantly have feelers out to people across the continent to try to, you know, just add information on these players. Well, I think we're lucky that way. A, there isn't the sort of jaded relationship that a lot of NHL folks have with reporters and with the media. And B, it's ultimately their job as much as it is to develop them and coach them. It's also their job to promote them, right? Like, they want these kids to progress up levels.

So it's in their best interest, whether it's NCAA or junior or the teams in Europe. It's in their best interest to really be eager to talk to people like us. So I just think we get lucky that way versus NHL reporters. So I think just have to work a lot harder to build those connections. These folks are just a lot more amenable to it. And then the same is true. I think of their families. You get to and their agents, frankly, you get them before they're in the NHL.

And as a result, you get them just a lot more open to wanting to share their story. They've never shared it in many cases before. So you're not asking them a question that they've been asked 15 times already, which makes it a little bit easier to go a little deeper on just sort of building that connection and building relationships with them in that way. So I just think it's the way that it's set up is that these kids and the people who surround them are just so eager to try and make it to the next level. and the people around them are so proud of what these kids in many cases have accomplished

that there's a lot of tire pumping, which is you actually have to be a little wary of, I think. Yeah, you'll probably have to sift through some of that. Yeah. I mean, that was honestly on my next question. Like, how do you balance your opinion as an evaluator of these players with the word of their coaches and their families and themselves whenever completely understandably, their job is, like you said, it's kind of. it is kind of to pump tires and it is to play hype men for these for these guys because there is a lot of

stake whether it's for the player individually whether it's for the the staff that's been charged with their development like how do you how do you thread that needle because you know someone like me who doesn't you know i don't i don't watch these guys right so i so i rely on the word of of of you and corey and in guys like that mostly wheeler mostly mostly we're we're fast approaching a 90 10 split on that one for sure. But it's definitely difficult. You have to be wary of everybody's position. It's the same thing when you're dealing with an agent on anybody, whether it's these kids or their NHL clients, like that you have to be aware of their motives and the way that they're going to talk to you about their guys and that kind of a thing. But I just trust myself on the flip side

to sort of just watch these kids, put in the time, make sure that I'm balancing what I'm seeing with what I'm being told. And then NHL scouts are. always a good sort of middleman, even if it's off the record just to go to them to say, is coach or general manager X out to lunch in their belief in this player? And NHL scouts are normally pretty, they're not known to hide their feelings one way or the other, right? They're pretty blunt with their assessments of a lot of these kids. So I think just using them can help you sort of re-centered to sort of find that middle ground and find that truth in terms of who these kids actually are.

Because it is tough to deal with, to deal with, you know, 17-year-olds or 18-year-olds. There's a, there's a level of, you know, what do I care if a 28-year-old NHL player is good or bad? Like, they're a professional. They're paid as such. Like, there's less of, there's less of a personal connection there. When you stack it up next to you who's talking to these kids, you know, brothers and sisters and mothers or fathers.

So just the ability to balance your own personal relationships with these families, which is on a level that NHL reporters just don't generally don't get. It's wild and it's impressive. Yeah, there's definitely the odd kid too where you honestly find yourself rooting for them. I've been pretty upfront about that. I think Marco Rossi in particular, he's a kid who I've developed a really strong relationship with over the years. And I just think he's a wonderful kid. I would really like, after all,

but he's been through to see him succeed. I did a story last year on Zaid Wisdom. Same kind of thing. Like, I still text with his mom and keep in touch with her. And I'm just generally rooting for him. And so you have to be wary of that because I think that can, if you let that shade your evaluations of the kid, then you start to lose a little credibility that way.

But yeah, it's hard at times to sort of divorce yourself from the reality of also sort of wanting some of these kids who you have developed. to closer relationship with to succeed. I think people appreciate that, though, to some extent. I think that comes through with readers, especially when you're honest about it. And you're like, hey, like, Zaid Wisdom, he's like, I'm rooting for him. Yeah. Markorasi, like, I'm rooting for him.

I think that helps, you know, your work connect with, connect with readers on a pretty real level when they know that that's the angle that you're coming from. And honestly, when a kid is able to build a relationship with a reporter and have you feel like it's a genuine connection. I think that also says something about just who they are as a person because a lot of these kids, they're that sort of, I hate to say it, but they're hockey players, right? There's a bravado about them when you talk to them. They say all of the right things. They all have the exact same answers to the same kinds of questions. So the kids who aren't like that, I think, I mean, it's not a hockey skill. It's not some translatable hockey skill that they're

showing you. But I think they are showing you something about who they are, they're mature, level, how they handle themselves. You can tell when a kid is genuinely interested in a conversation in that kind of the thing. And there are just so many kids who aren't. Scott, I want to, we touched a little on the USHL. We touched, mentioned the University of Michigan. I'm curious. I mean, we already know that the USHL is the best junior league in terms of talent in the

world. Huge gap over anything coming from Canada. 90, 10. it again. In 2010 again, that's right. That's right. The prom and wheeler gap. But this year's especially interesting because obviously, you know, college hockey players

had an advantage of just being able to get on the ice and the USHL played. And there's, how do you see that impacting this draft, like just in terms of reps and exposure? Oh, well, it's definitely real. I mean, the Q, the Q played the close of the three leagues up here. The Q played obviously the closest to kind of a regular equivalent schedule to the USHL, but the WHOHL kids got anywhere from kind of 15 to 20 games. And obviously the OHL kids, unless they went elsewhere, got nothing. So it was a big deal that the USHL played through it. And that came with some stories that frankly haven't probably come to light as much as they should

have in terms of COVID and the number of kids in the USHL and families over Thanksgiving, et cetera, who contracted it. So there was a price that came with USHL putting on its season in the way that they did. But the USHL played a full year and it's going to be a huge benefit to the kids that played there in terms of their draft stock. There's no question. I talk to scouts all the time and they say, we're evaluating these kids on equal footing, yada, yada, yada. But at the end of the day, are you going to take the kid who played 60 games this year or are you going to take the kid who you haven't seen play since he was 16 years old, right? Like, it's just, it's a no-brainer. So I think the top prospects out of the OHL, they all got to play somewhere and they're all going to be

picked as first or second rounders. regardless, they all played in Switzerland or Slovakia. But the kids who were in Canada hoping to get drafted in rounds four, five, six, seven, you have to feel for those kids, I think, because their draft may pass them by without really anything that's in their control in terms of their own status. So those kids are in a tough spot. And the kids, I mean, a lot of kids also went south, like OHL kids. I mean, Cole Cillinger is a medicine hat tiger, but he played the full year in the

USHL. And he helped his draft stock in a big way by doing that. And it's probably going to be a top 15 pick instead of a top 30 pick as a result. So there's definitely stories of kids who benefited. And I think there's also a connection now among a lot of Canadian kids who are considering going, who have, who are sort of debating going the college route where they just trust that the USHL is going to sort of always be there in maybe a way that they don't trust the OHL. I've heard a lot of disappointment from agents and young sort of 14, 15 year old players coming up in terms of what happened in the OHL this year and how disappointed they were that the OHL never managed to get things on the rails. So there's some resentment that I think could linger.

And the USHL pulling off the season that they did is probably going to help them in terms of recruiting players long term as well. All right, let's do, let's do lightning around. Who's your favorite prospect from Pennsylvania? From Pennsylvania. The great state of Pennsylvania. Can you give them some multiple choices? Can I ring pair of water on this?

No, you may not. Best American in the draft. No. I'm a big fan of Chad's Lucius. I keep hearing that he's going to go a little bit lower than I sort of have had him rank. I think he's a legit sort of top 10 guy. I think Luke will be the first American picked. But I think there are some real worries about Luke Hughes and what kind of player he's going to be long term.

The fact that he's one of the youngest players in the draft certainly helps. The fact that he's now, according to himself, fully healthy from the foot injury helps. But he, he's not Quinn. So they're very different players. and we'll see what path Luke takes. But it's Luke or Chaz for me, for sure. You're not a Maddie Baneers fan? Matt, I think his ceiling is going to result in him

being that sort of very, very good NHL player. I think Matt's going to be, probably shouldn't even said that Luke was going to be the first American off the board because Matt's probably going to end up in Seattle, would be my guess. Keep seeing that. Yeah, Matt, the thing with Matt is,

I have no doubt he's going to be a really, really, really good NHL player. But if we're talking ceiling and the potential of that sort of stardom, I think Chaz has an opportunity to score 40 goals in the NHL if he really figures it all out. And I mean, Luke, with the way that he skates is built to be, if he can sort of iron out some of his kinks built to be that sort of classic modern defenseman that we all love now. So I think if either of those kids hit their ceiling, they will be better, or more impactful players, maybe not better players,

but more impactful players offensively than Matt Baneers will be. Is there a U.S. player, like in your evaluations, do you kind of find that you're the outlier on? Like, are you higher on anybody in particular than you find other guys are? Sasha Pastajov is probably the one that comes to mind. Sasha had a season that would put him in line with the Cole Coffields and the Alex Turcots of the last, and the sort of

the true upper echelon of the NTP in terms of his underlying numbers, his data, how he has produced. So Sasha is a kid that that I really, really like. I think he's got a chance to be a top six forward and he doesn't necessarily go in that kind of range.

He's probably going to go late first, early second, and I think he should go sort of in the teens, if you will. Last question for me. I think this draft, because of all the circumstances we talked about, there's going to be a player taken randomly that's maybe going to be the best player of the draft, right? Just because we don't have enough sample size, and it's hard enough as it is in a regular year. Do you have any predictions for some guy that you would say, you know what, we haven't seen a ton of him, and that's going to hurt his draft stock,

but there's such a high ceiling that this could be like the home run swing for a team. Ooh, I don't know whether there's a kid who we haven't seen enough of. I do think there are kids who could sort of sneak in and be that kind of player. Cole Sillinger is the player who I always come to on this kind of a question just because he's not widely regarded in that group of nine, ten players that every scout is in love with in this draft. He's probably going to go in that sort of 11 to 15 range. And I think Cole has a chance to be one of maybe the only two. two or three players in this draft who's kind of a 70 to 80 point guy in the NHL. Like him and Kent Johnson are probably the two most purely gifted players in the draft

in terms of offensive upside. And if Cole Cillinger becomes a 70 to 80 point player as an 11 to 15th overall pick, he's going to look like a top five to 10 pick in this draft long term. So Cole would probably be my answer. I think he has everything he needs. If he can get a little bit quicker, he's going to be a star. You love Kent Johnson. Cole Cillinger, the rare underrated player who has an NHL

any child alum is a father that never happens. Awesome. Well, Scott, we kept you too long. I know this is a busy time for you. So, again, great job on the Sandy Hook story. I would encourage anyone listening to this to go read. Go to the athletic, go to the app, and you can read it right away. It's the top story on the athletic app today.

Deservedly so, too. Yeah, fantastic work. Great read. And then I'm sure anything you got coming, you want to plug, Scott? just the draft coverage, the usual sort of look at all of the players. We've got a couple more features sort of on specific players. I've got a big one on Owen Power that's done that should be out in the coming days that I'm looking forward to sharing. So that kind of stuff just leading into the draft and then draft day is just sort of the monotonous.

Here is what I think of every single player that I know anything about. And the kids that I don't know anything about, I'm not going to lie to you and pretend that I do. So that's kind of where I'm at. It's sort of heading into draft day. unlike Sean and I who will have very strong opinions about everybody taking. Yeah, I get, I get tired by proxy reading Scott's horror because it eaves are just like, oh my God. Awesome. Thanks for doing this, God.

Well, hopefully the draft doesn't take the like 50 hours that it felt like it took last year to actually unfold. Fingers crossed for you, buddy. That was, that was, that was painful. That second day was like a middle school swim meets. Time warp. Absolutely. That was a track meet that last way too long. Thanks, Scott.

We'll catch up after. Thanks, guys. That's a great segment there from Scott Wheeler. I love our draft coverage at The Athletic. This is not to just pump the tires of the company because I'm a company, man. We have so much coming around the draft with Corey Bronman and Scott Wheeler and all of our beat writers. Like, I've seen the plans. I've seen what's, what's,

on the line. What's at stake here for coverage? It's going to be massive. So, Scott, I hope he's, I hope he is able to get some rest between now and then because there's still a lot of work to be done. But awesome conversation. Welcome Nikita Kuturav to the pantheon of Stanley Cup celebrations. He joins, oh, buddy, who have we seen over here? Is Corey Crawford, legendary, Alex Ovechkin, best. Maybe the best ever. You go back to the early 90s penguins as I often do with Phil Bork and those guys

going ballistic with it. But Kuturav dialed it up yesterday, baby. The lightning had their boat parade. Kuturav with like again another what a run for him, man. It's a tough. I know there's

people who are mad about it because the cup got deaded and that's always that's always a that's always a big deal. Is that bad? Is it bad that the cup got doing? I don't, I don't care. I'm trying to be diplomatic. That doesn't matter. Like, look, we know, we know what that thing's seen over the years, right?

We've had all sorts of debauchery and, you know, all the, all the cup ending up in odd places, stories. We've all heard them. So it's tough to get, it's tough to get wound up over, over the dent in the top, big as it was. But man, I, again, I just, you know, you love, you love seeing it. This is what it's about. I think it's just fun, whether it's, whether it's Kuturav or Patty Maroon or whoever, just to see these guys in action and you can kind of sense just what a, how fun the victory lap can be and what a release it is for them this year.

Because it really is. It's kind of like, it's kind of like two years of stacked up, stacked up, you know, drama and in whatever else. You can finally do it the right way after one year in the bubble and all that stuff. Just an unreal, unreal performance. And I'm psyched to see what's next. We have like, Jesus, we have months of these guys getting their respective days with it. It's going to be fun. They've set the bar quite high.

Are people still mad at Kooch or are we all just on board with it now? I you know I saw people because I wrote I wrote off of off of Kuturav's press conference and I'm the I truly try to not turn like I'm cognizant of straw men right I don't want to make it seem like everybody's upset about something when it's just you know three cry babies people are pissed people are people are still pissed you look I'm telling you man you look at and it's like whether it's disrespecting the cup or acting like a bad example for. children or, you know, my, you know, Adam players wouldn't, wouldn't do this, blah, blah. When you drink Bud Lights and, yeah, great. I go, go, go talk, go talk to a hockey player if you think that, if you think that this isn't directly in character. So I'm, I'm loving it. It's been a fun few days.

I'm psyched. I'm psyched to see what those, what those freaks do with a cup over, over the next few months. It's awesome. I, I wanted to, before we wrap up, I wanted to talk a little bit of. about Peca Renee. You know, Sean, I've loved Peca Renee for a long time. As long, I truly, as long as, as I've known you. Yeah. You bought, you bought stock early on Peck René, my friend. I was in early with Pecca and he announced his retirement today, 15 NHL seasons. He's got a Vezna trophy. Adam Vingin, our Predator's Beater, called him the greatest player in Predators history, which is, you know,

absolutely. He's going to have his number retired. Like, he's going to go down as one of the best. And for me personally, like, it all ties to, like, games I've been to and series I've covered. And watching him almost, I don't want to say single-handedly, because it was a good Predators team, but beat the Red Wings for the first time. The Predators were like the little brother to the Big Brother Red Wings for a stretch of time in the postseason and in the regular season. And Pecker-Rene was so dominant.

And when this was against a really good Detroit team, like this is peak, close to peak Detroit Powers, and Pecko went out and just, he looked unstoppable. Like, it just wasn't giving up rebounds, stopped everything. He's gigantic. And I remember thinking, boy, maybe that's when I just completely went all in on him. And being in that Predator's dressing room after they won that series and just, you know, seeing the, how much he was just adored by teammates, it was just like, I love this guy. And he couldn't have been a better guy and has always been really gracious with his time and just a good dude. And so I wanted to recognize because it's easy to get these retirements lost in the shuffle of busy off season time. We have an expansion draft coming up.

We have NHL draft. We have free agency. We have trades. And so someone like Pecca, that can slide under the radar. And I just wanted to recognize the incredible career he had. And, you know, he's one of those many. Goleys developed by Mitch Corn, who one of the, you know, his impact on the game is huge, but Peca Renee was great for them and what a career he's had.

Unbelievable. I'm glad we got to watch him, Pat's the Torch to UC Soros too, because, you know, not for nothing, that Peca's career was in danger with the hip issues, with the, he had E. coli and his hip at one point. I mean, he dealt some pretty gnarly stuff over the year to the point where, you know, I think there was a stretch where he said he would have been playing in 2021. Someone would have called you a liar. So for him to stick around and be able to kind of usher that franchise into the next phase,

it's a pretty cool thing. So happy trails to him. That's amazing. Okay. A couple of things to highlight here at the end. I do want to, we mentioned Jeremy Rutherford in the Vladimir Teresanko trade rumors. I think it's worth going and listening.

He joined Ian Mendez and Haley Salvin, who are not our tribal on this podcast. I think we've established that they're more a friend. Although, Haley would seem mad. Did you have Domine or something? She didn't like that. We tried to comment your Dom at some point. I think she's just generally not a fan of my burgeoning alliance with Mr.

Lusdiction, yes. I mean, the fact that you just effortlessly says that last name. You know, that's so like, their show's great. And you should probably listen to the Friday show with Corey in, in Max, if for no other reason to listen to Max, who's our seat's favorite, of course. Our best friend. Our best friend. In last week, we did a little athletic Detroit reunion.

And it's just, he's everything. I saw that, man. I was, I was jealous all you guys. Because it's been, I mean, my God, I haven't seen you in person in a year. Same goes for Max. So he's going to, he's going to be making a Pittsburgh trip here in a little bit, by the way. Yeah, yeah. Our buddy, we have mutual friend.

Mike Persak, who covers the Pirates for the Post Gazette, him and Max went to school together. He's a Grand Rapids boy also. So Max is going to be making a visit at some point soon. I'm psyched. My only fear is that he brings Corey with him. Yeah. I think he's required to, but you have to bring your podcast partner. That's you and I, of course, you went on a trip recently to the Grand Canyon.

That's right. That's right. We're shopping. We're shopping for tandem bicycles for us to ride around together. Yes. The last thing, if you're not a subscribe to the athletic, of course subscribe. But I want to encourage you to go into the comments section, and I'm pulling them up right now, specifically this episode of this podcast, because this is where we interact best with our listeners.

Last week I asked for some guest ideas, and the first one that was perfect. It was Phil Kessel, who I think despite his, I would say reluctance to do media, I would, because Sean has the, they share a voice, it would be great. Is that, is that actually, is that actually true? Everyone says that if it, it always bothers me a little bit. I don't think you sound like, you don't like that bit that Phil Kessel and you sound exactly. I just, no, I just, I just, I just like to think of myself as perfectly unique in every, in every single way. So, so to hear that I share voice with anybody is, is, uh, disarming.

Here's what I would say, well, I mean, if we could get him on and, and, and, uh, Rich and Aaron, if you're listening to this as the coyote, If you can set this up, we would, we do want Phil. And even though he's going to say no, maybe you have to twist his arm. That, we could settle that. Like, if for no other reason we should have Phil Kessel on to put this. I think where it started, Sean, is because your, your imitation of him saying good one, Randy, was so good. It was a little too good. And that's what, that's what did it.

Should I just start doing impersonations on the podcast continually? I might, I might turn that into a bit. Everyone loves them. Everyone loves impersonations. Do they? someone else suggested Chris Peters who then went on Max and Corey Pranin's podcast so Chris is also dead to us

so that's out Loon Annie a great suggestion from Thomas M in the comments we also are compiling our list of no fly words the words or phrases we can't use we are no longer allowed to use Galaxy Brain I'm not allowed to go yeah no in the same phrase which I apparently break all the time it's going to be tough for you it's going to be talking to me, has suggested that we add pop to the no-fly list, only to be used if referring to soda.

And so I'm trying to figure out, so we can say like, yeah, pop, which is the correct way to refer to any, like, soda or Coke. I don't know if I've gone over this. I grew up saying pop and then switched to soda because I just got tired of getting ridiculed when I was in college. I'm a turncoat. What I don't know with Jonathan, and you might have to clarify it in the comments. this episode, Jonathan, if you don't like it in other references, like, hey, this is going to pop. That's my guess. He only wants us to use pop if we're referring to soda. That shouldn't be a problem.

I don't know that we do that all that much. I think, uh, I think this draft, this player is going to pop. I don't think we do. Easy. Easy enough. A request for John Foresland, which would be great. I think that would be really good. Yeah, we, we, we, I want to do a crack in episode coming up here.

This is, uh, or have a crack in guest at, at some point. Yeah, we, we definitely have to. And that's in the works. A episode, and this may be a full 60 when we roll this back, but this is a great idea by Thomas N. On the 96th Team USA World Cup of Hockey that, you know, Ron Wilson led, Lou Lamarillo put it together. Incredible run that's, you know, it's a great story.

I think it's a great narrative. So the full 60 is going to come back in the fall as a narrative podcast. and I'm looking forward to listening to it, not doing all the work that goes into doing it because those are hard. But I think that definitely, that definitely deserves more than the two of us. It deserves more than like us having Madonna on. Bessing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Thomas M, I hear that and that it's going to be, that's a great idea.

And I think it's going to happen based on your comment. And I love that idea. Love it. Let's see. Kevin R says he loves the podcast, even though he says we're number two behind Max and Corey. I think that's a plant by clearly sent by the other. What was his name?

Kevin R. I'm going to do some recon, see how many Kevin R's Corey has in his circle. Ryan Lambert request from Jimmy L. Never heard of them. Never heard of them. Sean has a podcast with Ryan Lambert. If you want Sean and Ryan,

I think there's plenty of tape of that. Yeah, it's us talking about chips and punk bands. You can pay $4 a month to. to hear that. Kevin W. says if every episode you list the words of phrases that are banned, it sort of defeats the purpose. It's a good point. Well, but like, but we want to, we want people to know though. We want people to know that we're responding to their concerns. Yeah, Kevin, I disagree. As much as I love every commenter and each one is like a child to me, I would have to say, we're not using the phrases throughout the podcast. We're just referencing them at the end so people

know what's banned. All commenters are. tied as your third favorite child. We all know who's in fourth place. Max? Oh, Max is in full. All right. Well, that's a wrap. I think that's a wrap. I think to get to Scott Wheeler for doing the podcast. Again, subscribe, read all his coverage. It's incredible. He's about to hit overdrive. It's great. Sean, great work again. Thank you for listening to you, the listener. And have a great day.