The Athletic Hockey Show - USA wins WJC gold over Sweden, the “BC Line” impresses, thoughts on the media all-star team selections, looking ahead to the Ottawa and Minnesota tournaments, and more

Episode Date: January 5, 2024

On this special edition of The Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series, Max, Corey, and The Athletic’s own Scott Wheeler record immediately following the conclusion of the 2024 World Junior Championship and discuss the US getting their gold medal revenge over Sweden, the impact of Team USA’s “BC Line”, the play of Trey Augustine in goal, Isaac Howard living up to this “Ice Man” identity, the Lane Hutson-Ryan Chesley top defensive pairing, a potential jump to the NHL for US head coach David Carle, thoughts on the media all-star team selections, and a quick look ahead to the 2025 world juniors in Ottawa and the 2026 world juniors in Minnesota to close things out.Subscribe to The Athletic Hockey Show on YouTube: http://youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowGet a 1-year subscription to The Athletic for $2 a month when you visit http://theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. Hey, everybody, Max Boltman here alongside Corey Prodman and Scott Wheeler, both of whom are live at the Scandinavian, where the World Juniors just wrapped up. It was a good game for two periods there, and USA pulls away at the end, but really a stellar tournament, and I thought it had a fitting final.

And I want to start with that final is ultimately a rematch of kind of, the 18, under 18 tournament two years ago. Sweden comes out on top in this one. USA has their revenge. Corey, what was the difference this time around for a very similar age group, very similar makeup team for T USA? Well, you know, you go back to the U18s two years ago, and obviously that's been a big point of discussion with this age group

in the lead up to this game, and even during the tournament. And, you know, USA dominated that game. The 04 is led by Logan Cooley, Cutta O'Oce, Rutner McGroity, Isaac Howard, Frank Nazar, Lane Hudson. They were fantastic in that game. They got a ton of scoring chances. And then the Swedish goaltender, Hugo Havlet, was outstanding in that game. And quite frankly, the USA goaltender, 16-year-old then, Trey Augustine, was quite poor.

And a couple of powerful opportunities of Sweden got that capitalized on, Jonathan Lechler, Macchina, O'Swin, being very good to the man-ad advantage there for them. And today, that just wasn't the case. Yes, I wouldn't say Trey Augustine had the game of his life by any means. But he was good. He made some tough saves when they needed him to. He didn't let in soft goals when they didn't need him to. That was a big difference for them when you knew they were going to have all that talent.

You knew they were going to control the tempo of the game. And Hugo Havill, but frankly, did not have a big game. He had a couple of tough saves. He's a very good junior goalie. But it wasn't as one side as it was a few years ago. And as well, what the business from a few years ago is now is the 04s really leaned on the 04s. You know, again, U-18, turn versus U-20. there's some differences in physical development.

But now at the U-20 level, you had the Great O-Fords, like Cutter Goce, Rutger McGroherty, Isaac Howard, Frank Nazar, Elaine Hudson, contributing in big ways. But you also had those old fives. Will Smith and Ryan Leder were basically 12-13 forwards on the USA team two years ago. And now this time, Will Smith, Ryan Lander,

Gay Perrault, you could argue by the end of the tournament were USA's best players. Scott, let's go to you on that thought there because Corey's right. I mean, obviously a huge impact on the game. Perot gets the opening goal. in this game. Leonard has maybe the dagger goal, and I know you talked about kind of hit the theatrics that he brought along with that. How much of an impact did that BC trio have

on this game and this tournament by the end? Yeah, they, as Corey mentioned, they did kind of become a storyline here. There was so much attention on the 04s and this whole idea of revenge on the Swedes, but they were huge through the metal round. And it didn't look that way early on in the event. Ryan Leonard was their best player in kind of a sleepy, open. game against Norway. But outside of Ryan Leonard in that game, really the first three or four games of the tournament, everybody was kind of waiting for that BC line to get going. Then suddenly they start clicking when it matters most. They still weren't playing a leading role. They were playing 13, 14 minutes a night here. Next year, they're all eligible returnees. If they all go back to college,

which I think would probably be wise for all three of those players, they could go from 13, 14, 14 minutes to 17, 18 minutes and then you're having a different conversation about them. And yet in the end, they were both, I think Gabe and Will were both eight, nine points in the tournament for seven games. They were both productive. And they, this skill showed up. There was a play tonight where Will Smith gets out on a breakway. He could have had a fourth point of the game if he buries on that breakway, right? I think that was Smith you're talking about, right?

Yeah, Will Smith. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I mean, when I was watching them early in the tournament, I was, I think I've told you guys before, I was thinking about the old ones when we called Caulfield and Turkconn and Cam York and Zieg. went to play as an 18-year-old's of the world juniors. Matt Boldie gets cut from that tournament, and they just couldn't really excel.

I know Zegress was really good by the end of it, but you just thought, okay, maybe it's next year is their year. That's kind of why I was thinking, watching the BC line here, the 05s, led by Smith-Perrault and Leonard, thinking this is not their year. This is the 0-4's year.

But really, these guys are exceptional hockey players, and they have been torching college hockey and been a big reason why Boston College is a top team in the country right now. And they showed here in the medal round why they're such impactful players, the skill and creativity of Smith and Perrault and Ryan Leonard with, he is plenty of skill too, but his competes off the chart,

practically wills USA into that, you know, not the game winning goal, but the goal to put the nail on the coffin out-muscling Noah Oslin, who was a highly competitive player in his own right for a puck that led to Leonard's finishing on that chance. Scott, Isaac Howard had a huge thumbprint on this game. maybe Paul Brent on this game because it seemed like he was in the crucial moment the guy who swung it for. Yeah, and it's been a really nice story.

As you guys know, I was at Michigan State about a month ago now. And just in speaking with Adam Nightingale there, he had a tough year last year, right? This is a player who transferred after his freshman season as a first round pick. That's a pretty rare occurrence. He goes back to Adam Nightingale who coached him at the national program and often benched him at the national program. suddenly Nightingale starts to get the most out of him. Nightingale's talking about how he's winning battles, and he's a leader and a tone setter for that team.

And Corey and I have sort of talked about it over the course of this tournament as well, but his feet were moving all tournament. He was on Pucks. Tonight, particularly, but at least the last week, has been the hardest I've ever seen that guy compete. Yeah. Like, he has had times where he's dogged it in my times watching him. But, I mean, in this medal round,

again, doesn't mean he's going to be doing this for the next 10 years, years. But the Isaac Howard, who showed up here, who was giving it as all in every shift, was a very impactful player, given how skilled he is. And the skating seems to be in a really good place. That wasn't always the case for him. He was jumping onto loose pucks, winning races. We all know that he lives for these types of moments. They don't call him the Iceman for nothing, right? Like, that's his identity within this group. I think they turn to him as a bit of a, not a guy who sort of stirs the drink. He's not a driver. It never has been. a driver. But in terms of his personality, his swagger, I think you see a lot of that, both at

MSU and the impact he's made on that group, which is a bunch of lunch pail guys. And with this team, a more skilled group, he carries himself in a little bit of a different way, in a little bit of a different way. When the players were speaking about him postgame tonight, they said he's our guy. Like, he's, he's not a lead. I'm not sure I'd call him a leader. He didn't wear a letter, but a leader in a different way, just in terms of the way that he carries himself, the presence he has. He's sort of put it all together this season in a really positive way and the lightning have to be happy with the way that his year has gone both here and at MSU. I mean, that line in general was just a line full of energy. I mean, you love the way that Howard

was competing, but man, when you watched someone like, say, Gavin Brindley in this tournament, I know the offense wasn't there in the medal round, but that guy's engine is just revving at all times. I mean, he so much speed in his game, he's tiny, but he was winning battles against much bigger opponents consistently. you know, I just, again, that offense didn't generate, sorry, that line to generate the offense in a later game, like you maybe would have hoped, like they did in the earlier games, but there's a very effective line nevertheless. On defense, Corey, Lane Hudson and Ryan Chesley seemed to be the go-to pair for the USA. I think Hudson ends up actually 27 minutes in this gold medal game. He also gets, which I did not ever expect to say on this podcast, a fight in the World Juniors against a much bigger combatant in Sweden's Anton Johansson.

What was the impact of Hudson and Chesley as a pairing for Team USA? Well, we knew coming in, we had talked about it a ton, that the issue with this USA team was going to be their blue line. And I think as the tournament progressed, we started becoming maybe steadily less worried about it. It means, you know, Sam Renzel had a good tournament, some ups and downs, you know, really bad turnover in the semifinal that led to the first finish goal.

But in general, you like to size, you know, his mobility, he was able to carry pucks up, make a decent first pass. Zeevoim had an excellent tournament, you know, showed some good progress. Seamus Casey, tough first half of the tournament, better second half in the tournament. But in general,

this wasn't a sterling U.S. blue line. This wasn't a big, mobile, physical, puck-moving blue line that you think of, when you think of the premium world junior blue lines and how they look,

even something, how Sweden looks, where all those guys can skate and move pucks and, you know, are very competitive players. So they needed Lane Hudson and Ryan Chesley to be big

in the important games. And when you think of what in Lane Hudson is big, you think of this guy who was dancing around the offensive blue line, using his elusive skating, making scene passes, creating offense, being a highlight reel. There were times he was trying to do that in this tournament.

It didn't really work, though, at the rate that you expect from Lane Hudson. He wasn't that player. He didn't have the 15-point tournament that maybe some Montreal fans hoped. By the end of the day, when they needed him, he played 30 effective minutes in the gold medal game. He made plays, he made stops,

Ryan Chesley in particular makes a lot of stops, you know, highly competitive player whose puck moving has never been the hallmark of his game, but he was doing it well enough in this context. And those two guys definitely stepped up for US. I think the back-to-back can't be stressed enough either. He didn't just play 27 minutes tonight, right? He played 25 minutes, 24 hours ago as we record this. So it was, I mean, he plays back-to-backs at BU, and he kind of touched on it post-game

that these kinds of minutes aren't unusual for him at BU. But to do it on this stage in that environment in front of that crowd. And the defensive sort of an acumen of Wayne Hudson was the hallmark of both of these last two games. He defended very, very well. He was competitive. He didn't back down from the moment. Really outside of one attempt to clear the zone that he kind of botched where he looked

a little weak, he got bumped and he didn't get sort of a full shot on it down the ice when they needed to clear the zone at the zone. the end of a long shift. He was tremendous. He was their best player and their best player in the biggest moment. So credit to him. I think he sent a message not with the offensive play and the point production in this tournament, but just in the competitiveness, how strong he was defensively, all really, really positive. And to that enemy, he ends up being named to the media all-star team for this tournament. Theo Linstein is the other defender on the team. I thought it was interesting. Linstein gets on the media all-star team. Axel Sandin-Pelika,

given the directorate award for best defensemen. What do you make of that decision? Both of those decisions, really, Corey. I think that's the story of Sweden's blue line. I think it was a blue line in general at this tournament. I don't think there was a standout defenseman at the tournament. The one guy who you can think he was the dude here. I don't think there was that player. You could have picked Hudson. You could have picked Sandin Pelica. You could have picked Linstein. You could have picked maybe one or two other players on Sweden. You could have picked Maxim Sturback, even though he was out of the quarter. It's a lot of great tournament.

I think that was the kind of the theme here. You look for the Sweden Blue Line. It was six guys who all kind of came together really well. All played similar minutes often. And I, you know, sat in Pelkov, obviously with the QB1 guy on the power play. But Linstein got eight points without power play time. It was very good, even strength.

I think that's kind of where the divide came from a little bit. But, I mean, I thought Elias Pedersen played very well tonight. So, you know, it's just a lot of very solid blue liners all around. on that team, but maybe not one guy who truly stood out. And you saw that in that the coaches didn't nominate a defenseman as one of their top three players. Maybe to Scott's point on Hudson, just going back to that, you know, he, if you had told me before the tournament, he makes the All-Star team without a goal or, and under a

point per game, I don't know that I would have believed that. That kind of speaks to Scott's point about it doesn't all have to be just on the production. He had a strong overall showing there. I mean, he was the best defenseman on the best team. And hard to argue. that. How about in goal? Hugo Havillard gets it. Obviously, I think the game's playing factor for for Trey Augustine. He gets the gold medal. I think he's going to lead this tournament and save percentage when it's all said and done, but he only plays the four games. Yeah, that one's tough.

The goalies are always, in terms of when we have to cast our ballots at the end of the first intermission of the gold medal game, the goalies are always the most likely that feels like it's subject to change. I casted my vote at the end of the first period, at the end of the first intermission for Hugo Havlid. But then he lets in a few later in the game and Trey outplays him. And you probably wish when it's all said and done that you could sort of switch that vote, if you will. I thought Trey was great.

When Healthy, obviously dealt with a little bit of a bug earlier in the tournament. But when healthy, he was up to the task and incredibly can return for a third time as Team USA starter next year. So he's putting together a pretty nice international resume for himself, notwithstanding the 16-year-old gold medal game. He's now got a U-18 golds and the World Junior's Golds and gets to come back next year and give it another go on a USA team

that has potentially 11 returnees in Ottawa. And he still has the, and Havutts still has the, it was in the pretty much metal round, mind. He has the rare shutout of Canada on that performance, I think is very notable. Goalies, discussion is all very tough. You know, there was a point in time where I thought I was for sure giving it to Adam Guy on, and then they go out on the quarters.

Then Michael Rival had that monster game against Canada in the quarters thought, oh, he's for sure going to get it. And he gets pulled in the bronze medal game, you know, 10 minutes into the game. So goaltenders, as always, are tricky, whether the junior level or the NHL level. I want to ask you guys to get a little bit bigger picture here on this one. Because by the end of it, USA, I think looked like the decisive best team at this tournament. Even after two periods, they're up three, two. they looked just like they had this edge on Sweden.

Was it the fact that Canada went out early? Was it, did we over-hyped the Swedish team? Why did U.S. managed to create the separation that they did by the end? Well, keep in mind two years ago, like I said, they significantly outplayed Sweden. I don't think anybody really looked at these two rosters and thought that it was a close battle between the two of these teams in terms of the caliber of the rosters. Again, USA did win the U18 goal last year and they probably should. have won the U18 gold two years ago. They were clearly the better roster.

In terms of Canada, as we talked about a lot already, it was a weaker age group for Canada this year. You can do the what ifs. What if they would have gotten Zach Benson? What if they would have gotten Kevin Porchinsky? What if Tristan Luno and Tanner Mollandick were healthy? You know, could things have been different? And never mind, whatever.

Antilles, something's unrealistic or Shane Wright. But at the other day, it was a weak Canadian age group. And they never really came close to the caliber of U.S. I mean, the elephant in the room is the fact that when you looked at the 04 age group, the U.S. has historically been a really strong contender at the O4 level, but the other country that had always consistently performed really well at the O'Fort level was Russia. You know, this was Mothane Mishkov and Ivan Mirozacchenko's age group at the Uth Olympic Games. And then, you know, at the Hulika, they were dominant.

And, of course, at the U18 level the previous year. And so, I mean, that's, you know, there's a whole bunch of what ifs and the BILHF will keep answering these questions every year. And those are things that I'm not skilled enough or knowledgeable enough to weigh in on in terms of when's the right time, when will be the right time. But that's obviously something to consider when you think about who would have potentially have been a real opponent for U.S. It would have been fascinating to see, for example, a potential pair of Dmitry Simashev and Anton Zelaya against this American team. I mean, that would have been must-see TV, I think. Yep. I mean, it's not just in the context of Russia.

I feel like we're doing this what-if on the international stage very often, even at the NHL level right now. One day we'll see Connor McDavid play Austin Matthews in the Olympics. Not sure when that's going to be, though. Yeah, that day's not today. Scott, one quick thought I wanted to ask you on David Carl, who would not. Now at 34 years old has an NCAA championship and a world junior gold to his name. He's 34. He's really young.

But obviously the questions here are how long until this guy could see, you know, NHL attention. Do you see him as an NHL coach in waiting at some point? At some point, certainly. I would be surprised if NHL teams hadn't already had conversations about him, whether that's for an HL opening, that kind of a thing. There is no rush, as you mentioned, with his age.

But even just in talking to him, he has a presence about him. If you get to know him, he's got a very dry sense of humor, almost sort of blunt and to the point at times. But has a way with the players. You talk to players who played under him at Denver. You talk to the guys who played for him this year at this event.

Just has a way of getting the best out of guys, of getting guys to buy in. It's not an easy thing to do with an age group as talented as this American group was, to tell Will Smith that you're going to play. 12 minutes, 11 or 12 minutes in some games that matter and that you're not going to be on the first power play unit and the first guy over the boards on the power play unit. So he handled some pretty unique challenges with this team. They had a stomach bug that went through them throughout the tournament. But at the end of the day, he has just gotten the job done at multiple

levels now. And as a very young coach, it would be impossible to ignore the resume that he's begun to put together for himself. Awesome. Great stuff. Guys, any final thoughts here before throw back to the listeners. Obviously, you know, any time we go to the World Juniors, it's a great experience, great tournament. I don't think this is the demise of hockey Canada, though. I think when you start looking forward to next year's tournament and the team that can potentially put together, even the team the USA could potentially put together, presuming, not a guarantee

that Will Smith, Gay-Pero, and Ryan Leonard are all back for Team U.S. I think that New Year's Eve battle between Canada and USA is going to be must-see TV. Yeah, that group A next year with Finland, Canada and the U.S. You're likely looking at Canada, Finland on Boxing Day, and Canada, USA on New Year's Eve, and the people at TSNN are very happy about that. On the 16-year anniversary of Canada and USA on New Year's Eve

in Ottawa at the Canadian Tire Center, Canadian certainly all remember John Tavares' heroics in that game. I'm sure that a year from now we're going to be seeing John Tavares do an interview with Mark Masters ahead of that game. So there's going to be some nice buildup to next year's tournament. And those two teams on paper, you look ahead at this age group. It's a weaker age group for Slovakia and Czechia next year.

The Swedes and the Finns will still be the Swedes and the Finns. Still a bit of a tough age group for the Finns. The Swedish group should be strong. They've performed well internationally. But really, the two favorites entering next year's tournament should be Canada and the U.S. So to have them in the same group, which doesn't happen very often, is going to be good television for sure. And two years from now, not to lead you too far ahead, Corey, it sounds like Minneapolis,

Minneapolis, St. Paul is our destination for 2026. It's not. It sounds like it is going to be Minneapolis and St. Paul as the host to the 26th World Juniors. And that should be, you know, a really fascinating tournament. You know, obviously whenever we talk about the World Juniors, it's an event that, you know, we talk about, you know, how much Canada appreciates that we have Canadians who have traveled out in, you know, in the thousands here to Gothenburg to watch this tournament. you know, here, and obviously in Sweden, there was a ton of Swedes that showed out.

But even when it's not in Sweden, it gets massive TV ratings here in Sweden. And frankly, in the U.S., you know, there is significant attention to this tournament, but it doesn't have the same, you know, kind of attention. It's on NHL network, which most people don't have. And, you know, and getting people excited about junior hockey in the U.S. is much more difficult than it is in Canada. And obviously, you know, Buffalo, you know, there are plenty of junior hockey fans in Buffalo, but when the tournament was in Buffalo, you can argue whether it was the prices,

you can argue whether they went to Buffalo too soon or had tournaments in Montreal and Toronto sandwiched in between it. But people didn't show up to that tournament. And it was, it was not an embarrassment, but a sore spot for USA hockey in terms of how that event went in 2018. But I think if anywhere in the United States, the tournament is going to be a massive success, it's going to be Minnesota, because that is a state that truly deeply cares about amateur hockey. And I think there is a really strong chance for a great turnout and a great event in Minnesota. Awesome. Great stuff, gentlemen. That's going to do it for us. Great work to you both all week in Gothenburg, all two weeks in Gothenburg. Thank you all for listening to this episode

of the Athletic Hockey Show prospect series. You can follow us on YouTube at YouTube.com slash at the athletic show. And right now you can get a one-year subscription to the athletic where you can read all of Scott and Corey's work for just $2 a month. when you visit theathletic.com slash hockey show. That's it for the world juniors. We'll talk to you soon.