The Athletic Hockey Show - Vancouver Canucks already at a boiling point, is Mike Sullivan actually underrated?, Chicago Blackhawks messing up the tank-job, Jack Adams Winner of the Week, Multiple Choice Madness, and more

Episode Date: October 24, 2022

Ian and Julian discuss Julian’s experience watching the Flames-Canes game from the stands instead of the press box over the weekend, Julian tries to remember how much he paid for a burger and fries at the Scotiabank Saddledome, and The Athletic’s own Harman Dayal joins the show to talk about the disastrous start to the season for the Vancouver Canucks, how the team arrived at a boiling point so early in the year, Bruce Boudreau’s tenuous position, and more.Plus, if Pens head coach Mike Sullivan is actually underrated, whether the Eastern Conference is stronger than the Western Conference now, the Chicago Blackhawks messing up the tank-job winning 3 of their first 5 games, this week’s Jack Adams Winner of the Week, and some Multiple Choice Madness to round things out.Get a 6 month subscription to The Athletic for just $1 a month when you visit http://theathletic.com/hockeyshowSubscribe to The Athletic Hockey Show on YouTube: https://bit.ly/3BKz27u Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show. Welcome back, everybody. It is your Monday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. As always, it's Ian Mendez and Julian McKenzie with you for an hour to kick off your week in hockey. Kind of recap what went down on the weekend. Harmon Dale, who does a great job covering the Vancouver Canucks. Harmon's going to pop by in a few minutes here to help us navigate what I think is clearly the most contentious situation in the league.

You know, I know on the different podcasts, we've talked about what's the hottest spot. Man, it's a, it's a 10, it's a tire fire in Vancouver. So Harmon's going to drop by. We'll talk about that, some kind of, you know, we'll just bounce around the league and some fun stuff going on. But I got to ask you, Julian. Saturday night in Calgary,

you took in the game from the stands. You even tweeted out, hey, folks, I'm watching this one from the stand. with a buddy. What was that like? Man, I thought it was really cool. Just taking it from the spectators perspective. For context, I have a friend of mine who's visiting me from Montreal just for the next week or so.

And I just kind of thought, like, because he was in town, and I know he likes hockey a little bit, I was like, you know what? This might be an opportunity to watch the game, not from the press box, but actually from the arena. Because before this whole experience began, the beginning of the season, like, I'd, never been to Calgary, much less visited the Saddle Dome for any type of game. And I've been there in the press box a couple of times. But now I can say I've experienced it from the stands, just sitting around the different fans, seeing the different sight line. I was in like section, like in the

200s, essentially. I don't think the sightlines are that bad, depending on where you're at in the Saddle Dome. I thought it was pretty good. I know one guy was trying to like clown me from my, from my photo of where I took it from, but like, no, I don't think it was that bad. I wish it was a little bit more packed, though. I was a little bit surprised at the fact that, like, the dome is not, like, at full capacity, but, like, the fans that were there were pretty much in full voice. And it was an OT game. It was, it was very fun just to see fans, like, go off on that.

And my friend who was with me was, like, really into it. He's, like, getting up and down. He's, like, cheering. And he came a Flames fan that night, I think. Like he was really, he was really into it and really like rooting for the team in that moment. And I, and I enjoyed it. I actually, I went to, like, during the first intermission, I went to some like burger spot in on the, on the concourse and I had myself a little burger and fries.

Like, no, this is pretty dope. The food they got here is pretty good. And not crazy prices either. I don't think I had to pay more than like nine bucks for the meal I had. Like the food ain't that bad. And the food is like decently priced. So like, I get that the arena. is not in the greatest of shame.

But like, you're, you're, you're, you're, it seems like you could have a pretty decent time. I didn't buy any beers, I should have done that to at least get the full experience, but like,

I thought it was pretty cool. Hold on. You got, you, are you trying to tell me, you paid $9 and got a burger and fries? Yeah, I didn't pay that much.

That's a good, that's a, for stadium pricing. Deal. That's a heck of a deal. I know. Yeah. Like,

I'm gonna, maybe it was a little more. But it wasn't like 20 bucks. Like you go to another arena like 20, 15, 20 bucks. Like I didn't pay that much. I was, I didn't even think about it. I was just like, all right, cool. This is the food I got.

But like, yeah, any other arena, you're, you're selling out like $20, $25. You know what I wish they would do in North American vet? And maybe, you know what? Maybe this is where we could get some help from the listeners. Maybe there are venues that do this. But I remember I was in Europe. I was in Germany for the, the FIFA World Cup back in, would have been 2006. Yeah.

And one of the coolest things was you would go to the concession I mean, I was working but there was one game that I went just as a spectator. Yeah. And you could, the combos included beer.

Like you could get beer in the combo. Yeah. We don't do that in Canada, do we like, there's no burger fry and beer for 20 bucks like at a flames game or a, like what I want to know is from somebody who's listening to us from San Jose or Nashville or Florida.

Like I feel like this is where the Americans usually get it right, right? Like, they usually, like, I want to know, are there NHL venues where you can go to a concession stand and get a beer in a combo? That's a, yeah, I don't know. Why is it not more of the thing in Canada? I don't know why that, why do we have that wrong?

Why is it, as a culture of sports fans as in this country, why do we have that wrong? Why is it that when a man with a whole bunch of beer and is cooler, approaches me at an arena, I have to wonder about whether or not, say, imagine if I was a parent, I have to wonder,

you know, damn, should I really start taking money out of my child's trust fund so they can go to college or really get myself this ice cold beer? It don't make any sense. Maybe I'm being a little excessive here.

But it costs money. But yeah, like it should be part of a combo. I'm with you. Making a combo. Like if I was running an NHL team, first thing I would do is beer with the combos.

Like so, pizza in a beer, burger in a beer, chicken tenders in a beer, whatever. Let's go. It was not that much money. I know I said like nine bucks. I like it was like a little, maybe a little more, but like it didn't cost me like 25 bucks. It wasn't that bad at all. You're walking around now.

You're not wearing your press pass, right? Like you have a ticket. No, no, no. Yeah. Dude, like I was wearing like just like a basic like flannel, shirt underneath, ball cap. Like I wasn't trying to be noticed or anything. I was just chilling. I'd love it if you tried to walk around with your pass pass.

Maybe with an athletic hat and a press pass, maybe just hoping somebody would be like, you Julian McKenzie? I did get noticed. I did get noticed like once. I got noticed once. Like a fan, his name was Dan. Shout out to Dan.

Came up to me. And I guess he saw my tweet that I was like just going to like hang out. He's like, hey man, like how are you enjoying you? Is it a fun time? Is it cool? So that was nice. That was really cool. But yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, I mean, I wasn't trying to like, I wasn't walking around being like wearing a suit and just being like, oh, I'm just going to act professional and sit in the stands. Like, no, I just wanted to just be chill with like everybody else and just like hang out. Like different people on the beat were saying like, hey, man, you got to experience it at least once. So, you know, it's cool. And that was the first time I got to watch like an NHL game as a spectator that didn't involve the Canadians. I know I go back on the home base thing. But like, this is all really fun for me to take in and really enjoy. So, yeah, I'm going to take advantage of the experience as long as I can't.

As you say that, like, I can't remember the last time I went to an NHL game as a fan, like sat in the stands. I really, I'm having a hard time. It's been maybe 10, I don't know, 10 years, 15 years. I have no idea. You wouldn't take it like your kids to just like a random sense game? But I've worked them all. I mean, like, take it like a night off and just be like, dude, like family night. I mean, then again, I mean, good luck.

I mean, I don't know how concessions are in Ottawa. I know they're not so, they don't seem that bad in, in Calgary, I guess. I don't think I paid that much. I'm sorry, I threw out nine bucks. I think it's a little bit more than nine bucks. Why do you keep saying that, by the way? Why do you keep saying, I apologize, I think it was more than $9? Like, what, like, this just happened like a day ago.

How could you not remember the price? I don't know. It's just like, I don't remember it being got much. You've got an awfully shifty about the, this burger and fries. No, it's just I thought it was one thing. And then I realized, oh, crap, it might not be that. And I don't want people, like, hounding me being all like, hey, man, you got to let me know about that deal at the Saddle Dome.

What price is that at? Where's the place at? I don't want people hitting me up like that. I'm just trying to clarify it. You just straight up lied off the top of the pot? No, I wasn't trying to lie. I forgot. I'm sorry, man.

No, I'm terrible. I don't know. A guy as young as you in his 20s, forgetting about the price he paid for a burger the day before seems a little suss to me. That's not cool. Oh, man.

Should I bring like my friend out? Just be like, hey, man, how much to be paid for our food yesterday? Should I just like double check that? I don't know. I'll do it. I'll do it if you want me to. Listen.

I just maybe, listen, we'll find out from some flames fans. I will say this. I will say this with the most confidence. It was less than $20. I can't tell you exactly how much it was. It was less. than $20 for sure.

This has gotten more awkward than our yacht rock conversation from a week ago. Tell you what, though, man. Hey, you want to talk about awkward situations? Let's bring in Harmon from Vancouver because, man, I got to tell you, this situation with the Canucks has to be the biggest tire fire in the NHL right now. Because look, down goes, Brian and I, we did the pot on Thursday. And we're bouncing around, like, Toronto was pretty hot. Minnesota was running hot.

Like, there was a couple of places, you're like, oh, man, like, things are, things are pretty hot. But they got nothing on Vancouver. Like, like, you know, this is unbelievable to me that, you know, you start, your home opener, you've already lost five games in a row. Like, most teams, when you play your home opener, maybe you've played two or three games. And even if you've lost them, there's some excitement. Like I said, Harmon is standing by. Let's, let's, here's the question I have.

have for you, Harmon, as we bring you in to the Monday edition of the athletic hockey show, man. What was the, what was the reaction when the Canucks hit the ice on Saturday night for like the pregame skate? Like, did they get booed already? Like, was it a restless crowd already in Vancouver? No. And that's the interesting thing was Elliot Friedman was actually on hockey night in Canada and explaining that for the first two periods, he, he was actually surprised at how positive the reception was. And I think that's the one thing to keep in mind about Canucks fans is they really want a reason to

cheer for this team. It's not often that they resort to kind of taking the more negative way of kind of showing, of expressing their feelings. But I think after the second period and just given the context and the lack of fight and effort that

the team was showing, I think at that point fans just became fed up. And it wasn't just the result. It was just nothing there in terms of the way they were competing and there was no pushback. And at a certain point for the last 10 minutes, it seemed like the team just quit and left Thatcher Demko all out to dry. And even after the game, you had Boudreau speaking about how disappointed he was

and how the team kind of just let up and just seemed to have no belief left. And I think that more than anything was why the reaction was so dispirited was the team wasn't just broken on the ice in terms of the results, but it looked like they had reached a point where they stopped believing themselves. Like, we're at a point where I think off that game, we saw some jerseys being thrown onto the ice. I'm getting some deja vu vibes from around last year when Travis Green was still around and jerseys were being thrown and people were losing their minds.

And then Bruce Boudreau eventually comes in and everyone loves Bruce. But like at this point, you already. complained about the coach. You already complained about the administration in place. The players are more or less the same. I mean, the players, but also at the same time, you've signed J.T. Miller to that extension. I mean, something, like, what do you do in this situation, right? Like, you've gotten mad at everybody possible in this situation. If you're a Vancouver Canucks fan, who is there to be mad at now? Well, it's not even necessarily about who. It's about maybe the plan that you had isn't working, and you've got to change.

direction. And really, when new administration took over, it was interesting because when Rutherford had his initial press conference almost a year ago, he highlighted a lot of the team's flaws and spoke about wanting to get younger and not trading high draft picks away. And he sounded like a president of hockey ops who understood that there was a lot of work to be done. And yet you look at their body of work in the off season, they essentially just continue to double down on what Benning on the Benning project. And there weren't any significant moves to to ship out core pieces. And they had a win now off season. Right. You mentioned resigning J.T. Miller, but also signing a middle six forward and Nalia McKayev to almost five to a contract worth almost $5 million

per year. They traded away a second round pick to rid themselves of this season and next of Jason Dickinson's contract. They didn't, they didn't acquire any draft picks. They didn't get younger in any of their moves, they kind of just doubled down on this group and continued down that path. And I think when you see the results, blow up in your face time and time and time again, at a certain point you've got to realize that maybe you've got to keep an eye on the future and that doubling down and trying to win now isn't the solution because that's been the problem for the last seven, eight years. And that fundamental problem has not been fixed. the fact that the Canucks have always tried to keep their foot on kind of like both sides

where it's like one toe into trying to keep an eye on the future and trying to build prospects and build that way. But then the other toe is win now and let's stay competitive and let's try and squeak into the playoffs. And this is just a league where if you try and balance both priorities, you're going to get burned. And I think it's time for a reckoning with that. And the biggest change, firing the coach or firing this person, firing that person isn't going to change anything. I think it's time to step back and take an honest look in the mirror about the direction of the franchise and whether it needs a radical shift in approach.

You know, I really like what you said there about, you know, one foot in the water, one kind of not in the, like, or a foot in both pools, whatever. I've always been a believer that fan bases are really intelligent. And if you're very transparent with them and say, look, the time has come, we've got to blow this sucker up. We're going to have to say goodbye to some popular guy. So maybe in Vancouver it's a Besser or a Pedersen or whatever it is. Like we've got to say some goodbye. But the plan is in three to five years, we're going to be competitive.

And when you're stuck in the middle, boy, it can be. It can be really frustrating. And I say this is the guy who covered Ottawa. Yeah, there was painful years. But now you feel like, okay, there was a little bit of a plan in place. The Rangers did the same thing a few years ago. You see the kind of the fruits of that. So, you know, I really like that point that you made because I do think that the worst place to be in the NHL

is that spot in the conference between like 10 and 13. Like you're just spinning your wheels, right? spitting your wheels. And the fan base is like, man, that window, it's crazy, right, Harmon? Like, it's been 11 years since Vancouver went to the cup final. Like, 11 years. Like, is it fair to say that the market feels like, that window closed probably 2012-ish, maybe you can argue 2013, but certainly 2012-ish.

Does the market feel like since then they've just been chasing their tail for the better part of 10 years? I think so. I mean, at least in the reaction that I get. And I think that's part of the reason why the fan base is as fed up as quickly as they are right now, is the cumulative effect of year over year over year, because Jim, or Jim Rutherford was even asked on After Hours by Scott Oak about the rebuild question. And the answer that he sort of gave was, well, you've got to realize how long a rebuild is.

That's the same answer that Canucks fans have. gotten for almost seven years now, which that's probably would have been enough time to actually complete a full rebuild. And the team's ironically done the losing of a rebuilding team without netting significant enough rewards. Right. During the rebuilding years, you got your Pedersen, you got your Hughes, you got some pieces like that to start. But they never really committed to that direction in terms of acquiring draft picks and weaponizing cap space. And they continued to make a lot of poorly advised signings that sort of really, even when Patterson and Hughes arrived, well, all of a sudden, the team didn't have the cap space to really add

around them because they had all these like Jay Beagle and Antoine Roussel type signings. And so I think fans just look at that, look at that and go, they've never really committed to a real direction. They haven't had a solid enough plan. And, I just think it's time for this management group to assess. And that doesn't necessarily mean blow things up, right? It doesn't have to mean you trade away everyone. But maybe there's got to, there has to be some tough decisions in at least trying to retool this thing in a more meaningful way.

Because maintaining the status quo and trying to make moves around the edges, I don't think it's going to cut it. Even if the team makes the playoffs this season, let's say they have a miracle turnaround. The question I've always had is, what's their path to actually contending for a Stanley Cup? Because you look at the Canucksus situation right now. They have arguably a bottom five prospect pool in the NHL, which is notable because this Canucks score is becoming more and more expensive by the year. Brock Bessor's new extension kicked in this year. J.T. Miller's new extension is kicking in next season.

Bo Horvats, appending UFA. If you keep him, he's going to get a notable raise. Elias Pedersen is up in two years. So the group that you have right now, which already isn't good enough to contend for a Stanley Cup, is only becoming more expensive. So you need young ELC talent to continue to come up

and be able to play in supporting roles. You don't have the prospects to continue that conveyor belt. You don't have much cap space to work with. And you're already operating at a deficit in terms of your draft pay capital, right?

because that's draft picks are a way where it's like you look at Ottawa, right? They wanted to go in and they were able to use some of their picks to acquire win-now talent. And it really accelerated the process in being able to bring and Alex to brink it. The problem is the Canucks have traded away so many draft picks in the last few years that they can't really afford to do that. So they're kind of stuck in the spot where, again, even if they turn this around and make the playoffs, the biggest question that I kind of have is how do they actually become in a, elite team in the big picture.

One quote I've seen on Canucks Twitter going around is it's coming from Bo Harvat after that last game. He talks about having his jersey throw it on the ice. But the quote that really sticks out is we haven't really given them and he means the fans much to cheer about. It's been a lot of years in the rebuild stage and there's an ellipsies and it says at this point in the season, it just feels like it's never going to happen. Like we're never going to win again.

Were you there for that quote? did you, could you tell me what Bo Horvatt was like when he was delivering it? Is there some added context that we're missing out of that quote? When I see that ellipsies, I have questions about like what could be missing out of that. But just, I couldn't up but think of the fact that you're, you were describing how disheartened the team was, has been looking throughout this whole stretch. And to have your captain say something like this, at least for someone who might not know better, you're like, holy crap. Like, you're the captain. You're supposed to be that leader to kind of inspire confidence.

like you sound really down on yourself. I'm not saying you're giving the fan. I agree with you. I haven't really given the fans most to cheer about, but that's really tough to hear your captain say, especially if you're a fan at this team. Yeah, so I think that was at practice today. I was speaking to another player,

so I wasn't around when that quote, when he gave that quote, so I can't really speak on what the tone of it was or necessarily the context. But if we take it at face value, I'm not too surprised. I think deep down, it's not hard to imagine that because Horvats been through the entire process

essentially at the start of the Benning regime. And so all he's known, aside from the 2019-20 season where they won a couple rounds in the bubble, is losing year after year after year after year. And it builds a losing culture. And if I was in Horvatt's shoes, it just feels like Groundhog Day, like it does for a lot of fans. The same way the fans are fed up this quickly,

I'm sure Horvatt is kind of looking at the team and kind of going, what's it going to take for us to be a consistently good team? And at a certain point, I mean, I don't blame him for having that sort of, for potentially having that lack of faith or lack of belief or whatever it is or just being overall down, I think it was interesting because the season kind of started and what's interesting about this

about the slow start this season compared to the ones that they had the last couple years is that they've actually had stretches where they've played decent hockey. This isn't a case where they've been getting blown out of the building every night. I mean, obviously, against Buffalo, they lost 5'1,

but most of these games have been close. I think a lot of them were situations where going to the third period, they were either leading or tied. And for whatever reason, they weren't able to close. And I think in the beginning, the coaching staff was able to, I guess, continue to get that buy in it and kind of just point to the process and say, look, we're so close, we're so close. But at a certain point when the results don't come, it's hard to continue to believe in that process. and it's interesting because after the Minnesota game,

I actually thought the team was at a bit of a fork in the road because they'd collected points and two straight games, both of them were OT losses, but those games were at the tail end of really hard road trips. And especially against the team like Minnesota, and I know they'd started slow, but the Canucks put up a really strong fight, and it looked like their game was actually trending

in a much, much better direction. So if you looked at that game against Buffalo, it would have been easy to look at it as, if you're a coaching staff, the way I would have framed it is guys, we've got points in two straight, we've been playing solid hockey, going back to our home fans now,

we went tonight, we've got points in three straight, this is heading in the right direction, and you're able to build some momentum. And I think part of why Horvatt and the team must feel so down right now is because you then lose that game and you lose any positive momentum you were building. And it's just, you're starting at rock bottom again

in terms of trying to get this thing back on track. And I think that might be why it's so disheartening for Horvath and the Canucks as a whole right now. Let me, I guess let me, let me wrap it up with this question because, you know, you talked about being at the rink on Sunday for practice. What's the significance, Harmon, of, and I saw you tweeting this out, did Bruce Boudreau let his assistant?

kind of run the drills. You know, we often will throw the term lame duck coach around. And, you know, it's, you know, it feels that way on Bruce. And I just wonder, what's the significance of him not necessarily running the practice in the way that we would be accustomed to a head coach running a practice? Yeah, I asked him about that. And he essentially said that he, you don't want to have essentially the same voice sparking at the players all the time in a stretch like this.

I think my gauge of it, being on the entire road trip and being able to talk to guys, it feels earnestly like the team really, and the players really, really like Bruce. I don't think he's the issue by any stretch of the imagination. I don't think this is a case of the players are tuning the coach out or they don't believe in him or anything along those lines. Like you hear some of these star players talking about Boudreau, they legitimately

like one of the quotes that I got was earlier on this trip from Calabros, one of the Debt Defenders was you want to go to war for this guy. I mean, Hughes going into the season was talking about you want to run through a wall for Boudreau. So Boudreau has the backing of the players. The question that I

sort of have is, does he have the back of management because he wasn't management's initial hire, right? The Boudra hire was made before Rutherford and Alvin came in. And Rutherford did say when he was introduced nearly a year ago that he gave the Boudra hire a thumbs up. But he was on after hours last night and he was talking about how his initial impression of Boudre's hire was that it was just for last season. And that once he got settled, then he realized, oh, there's an extra year on it, right?

And after the run that they had, playing fantastic hockey during the second half of last season, the fact that they didn't give him an extension, knowing the ramifications of what it's like to be a lame duck coach in a hotbed Canadian market, and knowing that it was an option year. Boudreau could have decided to walk if you got a better offer. The fact that they didn't proactively look to address that situation tells me that, it makes me wonder at least if he's not management's guy. And even again, hearing Rutherford talk about the poor start, he was citing things like bad habits and, well, we had a bad training camp

and we don't play with enough structure. Those are a lot of areas that fall under a coach's responsibility. So I'm not saying that a change is necessarily imminent or anything along those lines because the club's also paying Travis Green not to coach this hockey team. So there's a lot of money already invested in coaching staff. but I do wonder if management has faith in Boudre and whether this is

going to work long term. It's going to be fascinating to watch. Six games in and the Vancouver Canucks already feel like they've reached a boiling point. Big week coming up Monday, date against Carolina. Thursday, they're in Seattle, Friday, Pittsburgh, so going to be an interesting week.

Harmon, we're going to look forward to the coverage all week long with you and Thomas Drance is like I said. Vancouver's compelling to watch and we appreciate you drop it by the pod to kind of break it down for us. Thanks guys. All right. Great stuff with Harmon.

Hey, let me ask you this. I kind of laid out Vancouver's schedule for the week. So Monday against Carolina, that's a tough one. You know, hurricanes are, you know,

elite team. Friday against Pittsburgh, that's a tough one. Again, Penguins off to a great start. Do you think Thursday at Seattle has the potential, Julian,

to be a tipping point game? Like, if you come out of the game against Seattle, and you lose, and now you're eight games in this season without a win. And Harmon just laid out, ah, lame duck coach didn't seem like he had the full support. He's not management's guy. Do you think that's the time that they do something? Like you can't, you don't beat Seattle.

Yeah, but he also brought the fact that, like, they're also paying Travis Green not to coach the team, right? Like, do you want to have money going to two guys who are not coaching your team at this point? That's quite a bit of money. It's not my money. but like Vancouver Canucks, do they want to go down that road? Like, I wonder, I would, I mean, then again, also trading from a position of weakness is not necessarily the most ideal move either. And I don't know if Jim Rutherford is in the mood to do some kind of panic move to try to shake up the team. I'm not sure what panic move you're trying to do in that instance.

That being said, like if they lose to Seattle and they still find themselves winless somehow at that point, I'm not sure what you do. Like something has to be done in that situation. And if Bruce Brutro unfortunately ends up being that guy who gets chopped, it would be really unfortunate. Considering everything that Harmon was saying, the players seem like they really like him. The fans, once upon a time, they really liked him. I really enjoyed those Bruce.

There it is chance. And if he finds himself outside, like that, that would be really, really unfortunate. I really think the players need to look within themselves and figure this out. This is something that, this is their mess. They have to clean this up. Like, I don't know if Bruce Boudreau has to talk to them or Jim Brother for us to go down or Patrick Alvin or someone has to go and talk to them. But like, no, like something has to be done with the players and the way that they're handling things if it gets to that point.

Maybe they somehow get an upset win over Carolina and maybe things get different. You know, I mentioned they're playing Pittsburgh on Friday. I want to ask you about this because, man, I got to tell you, the Penguins are off to another great start. I feel like Mike Sullivan, and this might sound weird, tell me if there's a weird statement I'm about to make. Because he's got two Stanley Cup rings.

It's not like he's this unheralded guy. But I think even with two Stanley Cup rings, Julian, Mike Sullivan is underrated or underappreciated as a head coach. Am I right or wrong on that? I see where you're coming from, because Mike Sullivan won those Stanley Cup rings not just because he's a good coach, but he has Sidney Crosby,

generational talent, Evgeny Malkin, I don't care what the NHL 100 says. He's one of the best players we've seen over the last how many years. I know Matt Murray once upon a time, good young goalie who helped them to those cups. Chris Litton or Chris Lattang,

depending on what part of the country you're from, and now you say his name. Also a great defense. He had a great collection of players that Mike Sullivan was able to, he had a great collection of players he was able to help put in the right direction. And you're right.

I think he deserves a little bit more credit than that. I think the fact that the collection of players that he's had over the years who have been so good, it's easy to look at them and be like, well, yeah, of course the Penguins won. They have Sidney Crosby. So I understand where you're coming from with that viewpoint. I think he is a bit underrated. Yeah. I kind of feel like if you ask the average NHL fan, who's the best coach in the game?

I think John Cooper's name comes near the top of, or is that the tip of the tongue for a lot of people. Yeah, I think he might still be number one. Okay. I would also say that Barry Trots, even though he's not in the game right now, a lot of people are like, oh, give me Barry Trots. Trots can do, you know, magical things with...

Put Trots in Toronto, or maybe someone in Vancouver has already mentioned, hey, get Barry Trots, the coach to Vancouver Canucks. Like any team right now that is not playing well, I'm willing to bet some fan in that market of a team that's not playing well has thought at some point, I wonder what Barry Trots is doing right now, and would he be willing to coach this team? Yeah, and I wonder, I guess my question is, how far do you go down the list before Sullivan's name comes up? Like, if you're sitting around

with your buddies, you're like, who's the best coach in the game and you're kind of debating it? And look, I know Pittsburgh has been bounced a lot, right, in the first round of the playoffs, whatever it is, what, is it four years in a row or whatever, you know, maybe that's part of it. it bounced out of the first round. Yeah. But also, like, I don't really put that on Mike Sullivan. Those last two years especially, I mean, maybe more, but the last two years stand out to me the most because goaltending essentially let them down.

Like, they were down to their third string guy last year, and Tristan Jerry didn't have a good year the time before. Like, the last few years for the Pittsburgh Penguins, where they looked really good, and I think you could have made an argument they could have made a run in each of the last two years. Goaltending let them down each of those times. In terms of coaches that are better that or coaches we would come up over, come up over Mike Sullivan, like I want to go through that exercise.

Okay. Do you think Darrell Sutter is a better head coach than Mike Sullivan? Oh, man. It's a good question. He's got his two rings too, right, in L.A. Darrell Sutter's a good coach. And I think where Sutter has got a little bit more cachet is that he's done it in multiple places, right? Yes.

I'm thinking about, but like John Cooper for sure. Here's an interesting one. Rod Brindermore has coached up this Carolina Hurricanes to be a really good team. I don't know. Is it? Mike Sullivan, though? I don't know if that's fair. I don't think that's fair.

He's a really good young coach and like he's getting his players to go around him. But like, I don't know if that's fair. I mean, maybe some people disagree, but like, man, are we really at that point? I'm just throwing out an end. I'm not saying necessarily. He is better. But like I want to know if people feel that way. But I would, I think, I would think like without really getting the names out,

he can't be lower than like top five. Right. And I guess part of the reason why I'm asking is that, you know, a couple of guys who I think have been in this conversation the last 10 years are out of the game for different reasons. One is Joel Quenville. One is Mike Babcock. Like those are guys that you would.

would have been in the conversation, right? Like, for sure, I think two years ago people would have been saying, oh, yeah, he's, he's one of the best, best three or four coaches in the game on both Babcock and, um, uh, Quenville, I think. Um, so anyway, it's, it's, it's interesting to me. I just, I feel like, sometimes I think Sullivan doesn't get enough credit, but, you know, maybe there's other fans that think, no, no, no, that guy just riding, riding 87 and 71 to, to success, but maybe three.

Because, like, I mean, if you're really thinking about it, like, and look, I'm going to go through each coach into, like, alphabetically. I'll have the list of coaches on, list of coaches in front of me for each team. Is this a Wikipedia special? Yeah, pretty much. Like, this is as best as my brain could do it. Like, I need to make this simple for myself. Okay. Dallas Hacinz, Mike Sullivan, like, I would rank Mike Sullivan over Dallas Aikens, Andre Turini, Jim Montgomery.

Don Granato's doing really well, but I think he's, he's ranked well above him. Darrell Sutter, I get it. Fine. Let's think about that. Rod Brindamore's doing really well in Carolina, but I think Mike Sullivan should be above Rod Brindamore. Luke Richardson above him. Jared Bednar just won a Stanley Cup, has had this team be consistent as a good team for the last few years. Mike Sullivan's got them rings, though.

So he's probably above him. Brad Larson, Pete DeBore. Pete DeBore. A lot of people don't like Pete DeBore. But Pete DeBore is also a guy who's been to a Stanley Cup final before. But yeah, he's above him. Derek Lelone is just coming into his own, Jay Woodcroft. Jay Woodcroft apparently is more handsome than him, though.

that might be the ones He's number one, isn't he? He is number one on that list. Paul Maurice. How do you feel about Paul Marys? Paul Maurice is like the Lenny Wilkins. Remember Lenny Wilkins was like the basketball coach that just,

like you looked at his numbers, like damn, this guy, statistically he's won so many games, but then you're like, ah, I don't know. I like, but here's the thing, I like Paul Maris. I actually, I think he's a really, he's had success. but it's regular season success, right? Like he's never, outside of that, I think he took Carolina to the Cup final, boy, 2002,

I want to say, took him in the final. Yeah, like really early on, but like those Jets teams were. Yeah, you did. And then after that, he never really got that close since those Jets teams. I mean, you know, they kind of faded in the last little while of his tenure, but he tried to keep them as competitive as he could. But yeah, no, I think Mike Sullivan's above him, Tom McClellan. Yeah.

Dean Eveson, no, San Luis, no, John Hines, no, Lindy Ruff, no. I mean, Lindy Ruff off Legacy, if you want to look at it one way, but no, I don't think so. Lane Lambert, no, Gerard Gallant, no, DJ Smith, no, John Tortorella, no. No, I don't think so. David Quinn, no, Dave Haxstall, no, Craig Barouba, no. Cooper, better, Keith, no, Boudreau, no, Cassidy, no, Lavalette, no, bonus, no. I'm sorry to have to bore everyone and go. through the list, but like, this is a guy who should be number three.

There you go. So we've settled the exercise. Done. I'm sorry to make it painful for everybody, but he's a top three coach. He could be a top three coach. But hey, listen, if somebody thinks that Cassidy or one of those other guys is the bull or whatever, if you think that's the case, hit us up, I love to hear from people. You know, I just, I was thinking, hey, I was thinking the other day.

Man, I'm not sure he gets enough love. You know what the other thing I was thinking about, too? And I was looking, look, we got to coach everything here in the third week of October with it's early, right? Like a lot of teams have played four games or five games or whatever it is. So it's early. But Julian, the Eastern Conference looks pretty not stacked, but like I feel like once again, the dormats of the NHL are hanging out in the Western Conference, right? San Jose one win.

Vancouver, no wins. Arizona, one win, right? Like, like, Minnesota's off to a terrible start. Like, are we, remember years ago it felt like the Western Conference was like the better conference? And we always thought like the good teams resided over there. I don't know when it was about a year ago, maybe two. It shifted over to the East. And I still feel that way.

Am I right on that? Man, I don't know. It's just, I mean, the East does have a lot of stacked teams. The Western Conference is the reigning Cup champion, though. I don't want to go. I don't think, like, how many of those? Eastern Conference teams, maybe aside from Tampa, can beat Colorado in a seven-game series, right? I wonder, like, I think collectively, yeah, the Eastern Conference probably, like, better than the West,

but the West has the best team. And I think even in a playoff series with them, or even St. Louis, Calgary, you can throw in this too in Edmonton. I mean, fine. The top in the West, I think, is still really good. It's just because they have so many dormats below them. Minnesota's underachieving right now. They should be in that higher tier, I think as well.

I'll say this. Fine, the Eastern Conference is a bit more stacked. Just be careful on the people you sleep on in the Western Conference. And again, they have the reigning cup champion in that conference. It's a weird, I think it's just a bit of a weird way of looking at it.

It really depends on how you kind of view it. Well, San Jose kind of bounced back on Sunday, right? They beat Philly after, remember, Philly got off to that great start where they're, you know, won four of their first five. They kind of come back down to Earth a little bit in losing to San Jose. But I got to tell you the one team, we got to get, you know what, one of these days we'll get Mark Lazarus back on. They're doing this all wrong in Chicago. If they were trying to tank for Connor Bedard and hang at the bottom, they're three and two.

And they did it again on the weekend. They kind of came from behind on Sunday, right? They come back, they beat Seattle. And look, I think a lot of us thought in the summertime, Julian, when they tore down the roster and even, you know, Luke Richardson came in and you thought, man, it's going to be a tough job for him. Goodbye to the brinket. Goodbye to, you know, probably it's going to be Cain and Taves are next.

They've won three out of their first five games. and I don't know what's going. I guess I want to hear from Chicago fans. Like, I think your worst nightmare would be as they end up kind of what we talked about where Vancouver was, where you're too good to bottom out, but you're not good enough to be a playoff team and you're just stuck. Like, that would be the worst thing. After you strip down the roster a little bit, man, they can't,

you can't have a great start to the season, can you? I mean, you definitely can't end it well. I mean, you could have a good start to the year and you could feel good about it and then you crash to the end. And then maybe probably the deadline if you're able to offload some assets because that's what this, that's what this really should be about, right? Like if you have those assets around and you realize, man, like we're doing too well and we could get something for those pieces, that could help with the downturn, right? But I also, I also am with you in the fact that like if you're Chicago and you've been and you're trying to see the, the bright side in sucking for an entire year to at least be, you know, within striking distance of either Connor Bedard, Matt Faye Mishkoff, or Adam Fantilli.

And then you could end up in a position where you have to look at the ping pong balls and be like, man, we could be like fourth or fifth, you know, I can understand where you're coming from. Silver lining to that. And I think Mark Lazarus even mentioned in the previous column of his, you should probably look at who's been drafted fourth overall over the last few years. Detroit will tell you as a team that has had a lot of those terrible years, that drafting fourth overall isn't so bad. The Colorado Avalanche could definitely tell you a thing or two about drafting fourth overall as well. It's not every team.

And if you're not catching on, I'm referencing more at Cider and Caleb Carr, who have both been drafted fourth overall. I understand. You want to be in that top three. You want to get some of those guys, especially with the way that it is. That being said, we all know the draft is a crapshoot, and it is entirely possible for you to find a franchise game-changing player at a completely different spot than you anticipated. But I completely sympathize with Chicago fans and the fact that, like, they were sold on this year sucking. And if they had a big too good, it placed them out of it.

But it is also very early. They could find themselves falling out of this race fast. If you were a Chicago fan, what would you rather have? a, like you make the playoffs this year, or you tank and give yourself the best odds. I'm not going to say you're going to get Connor Bedard, but you tank and give yourself the best odds to get Connor Bedard. Consider how great Connor Bedard is.

You want Connor Bedard. You're going into the playoffs, you get your ass beat. You're like, you're talking about, But I'm not saying that you're going to get Badard. I'm just going to say you're going to end up with the best odds to get him. I know, but like you want that chance. at getting Badar or Fantili or Matt Faye Mitchkoff compared to going to the playoffs. I don't know.

Then again, like, it goes back to my point before where, like, you could find a game-changing talent anywhere in the first round, potentially, but also, like, if you're in a position where you could probably get the sure thing, you try to get the sure thing, right? Like, it's a bit of a difficult situation, but, like, I get it. Like, I don't know about rooting for a team to make the playoffs just so they can get their ass, handed to them within like the first round. You remember when Darrell Sutter, right? Yeah, remember when Daryl Sutter said last year?

Like, it's a waste of eight days for anyone who plays against Colorado. And he was pretty much right on that, like maybe like a day less than what he had said. If I'm a fan of Chicago, I don't want them running up on Colorado or ever ends up first in that Western Conference. And then it's like, oh, man, geez, like, what a waste of a first round. Like, I got to go to these two, I got to go to one of the two home games and they got their they got beat. But hey, Stranger things have happened,

I guess. I guess I'd rather them tank and then put themselves in a position to fail. But maybe that's a losing mentality. Well, I wonder, like,

there'd be a lot of fan bases that would say, you know what, we'd rather just miss all together if it gave us the best shot of Bedard, right?

Like, I think, I think Arizona falls into that category. Absolutely. I think. I would, I almost think, Anaheim fans

are probably like, you know what, we're still not quite there. Like, why not, why not have one more painful year? If we had Connor Bedard, then see you later. We're gonna rocket ship up the standings. Connor Bardard is so good. Like, I get it. There's all, any highlights I see just like come up on Twitter. It's like, oh, he did this between the legs move.

He sped through everybody. It's like nine shots a game or whatever it is. Like, it's crazy, but he does. Like, dude's release is, I can't think of too many. many other players who I've ever seen with the shooting release that he has. Like, I get it. Like, he could change a franchise with the way that he plays. And I get that some people will look at number one overall picks and be like,

oh, well, how many of them have won Stanley Cups in the last how many years. But I also get that, like, when you have a player like that who could elevate your franchise, like, that gives you hope that you could one day end up doing the damn thing and winning. And look, Colorado won with a number with a number, with a number, an overall pick. Like, it can happen. So I get YU tank for a guy like Karnibu Dard. He looks way too good.

And I don't know. I think I'd rather put myself in a position where, at least this year, I'd rather be in a position where I have a chance of getting him. And maybe if I don't get him, I get Mitch Kov and maybe I have to wait a few more years. Where I get in Fantilly, he looks really good. Then be in a position where, like, again, the first round. And then, like, hey, great. We made playoff revenue for two games. maybe it's a little more. I don't know, but I don't know.

If you're going to go in the playoffs, you have to win. You have to make it work now for a while. Last week, we started a new feature here on the Monday edition of the pod. We're handing out the Jack Adams winner of the week. The coach that we thought did the best job in the prior, the previous seven days. Look, the first winner. And maybe we need to be, maybe we need our producer, Chris, or one of us. We need to start keeping a running tally of this.

I agree. So John Tororella won the first. He's the first winner, right? We gave him, we're like, man, Torz got the flyers out to a hot start. If we were voting on the Jack Adams today, Torch was our guy. That was us last week.

He has a chance, yeah. Okay? So we're going to keep this running tally. This week, let me throw out the candidates who are in there. Then you tell me, then we're going to have to come to a consensus between the two of us, and we're going to give the winner this week, okay? So, look, we're just talking about Chicago.

Luke Richardson. He's got Chicago going. They won three games. Maybe Luke deserves Jack Adams of the week. Lindy Ruff. Guy gets booed on home ice on the home opener. New Jersey turns around. They win three straight games. Maybe Lindy deserves some credit.

Don Granato, Buffalo Sabres. You go through Western Canada and you sweep Alberta now. That's pretty impressive. Then he goes into Vancouver and messes with the fan base there, a 5-1 beatdown. Boy, Don Granado's done a really nice job. Let me give a shout out to DJ. Smith, who, you know, Julian, he came back to Ottawa, 0.2 to start the year. You heard some people saying, oh, oh, oh, here we go again. Maybe it's time to change out the coach. Boy, they've

looked so good. I think, I'm a fan of his. I think the way he's, you know, handle things has been really good. They've won three in a row. So, what are we got? How do, who wins? If we were handing out the Jack Adams Award for the past week, who gets it? Okay, my vote goes to Don Granato. You go up against some good Western Conference teams, especially in the Alberta province, and you get some wins. Like, that's really good. The Buffalo Sabres, here's my thing about it. The Buffalo Sabres were kind of in that class with the Detroit Red Wigs at the start of the year, where you're thinking, man, like, when are they going to make that next step in their evolution to become a playoff team? They have an inside track on doing that now. Rasmus Dahlene is like

the early frontrunner for the Norris. Like, dude is, like, playing so well at both ends of the ice. And look, I don't know if this turns into absolutely a playoff berth for them when it's all said and done. But to go up against teams like Evanton and Calgary and get wins on them, like, that is a big deal for that core. And Don Granato, I think, is a big reason why there's so much optimism with that Sabres core. Like, a lot of people have raved about him being a great communicator with those guys. he's getting so much out of that roster. Like, I like him for Jack Adams of the week.

Maybe you have a different pick. But like, I think Don Granato gets it for me. Okay, but how much of that was go to Alberta? They kind of got dummy, didn't they? And it was Comrie that played really well? I guess. But like, I saw them play against Calgary and like, they were skating them out the building.

And I was surprised. There was like a stretch in like the second period I want to say of that game. and the flames are trying to get a stick on the puck. They're trying to clear. The sabers are keeping it in. They're like skating circles around, trying to go, trying to just get a shot off a good, clean shot.

They're holding on a possession. The fans start like groaning at like how long the sabers are able to keep the puck in the offensive zone. And remember, this is not a flame. At that time, the flames were not like, oh, they lost their first game of the year. It's like one and two.

They were undefeated at that point. And Flames fans were just like, what the hell? is going on. And that Flames team knew going into that game. Like, man, this is a fast team. This is a quick team. This is a young team.

They need to find a way to stop those guys. And they couldn't do it. Like the Sabres, like, no, goaltending helped them. But I think the Sabres full on deserved it for the way that they played that night. I'm not saying it's just, I'm not going to say it's just goaltending

that bailed them out. That game was in Calgary. That game was in Calgary. I was in the building for that. I'm suspicious of anything that you say now that happened at the saddle dome. I don't know what to believe. Christ.

Okay. I made a mistake about concessions. Don't start bringing that up with my hockey acumen. Oh my God. Everything. Everything. I made a mistake with the price. I'm sorry.

I was too enamored with the burger I had. I understand. I'm sorry for letting people down with that. But believe me on this. And you can go back to my column that I wrote after that game where I don't know if I'm a lot to swear on the podcast, but even Akita Zedorov was like, yo, we had another shit start.

You can bleep out that word if you so choose. They did not play well because the Buffalo Sabres gave it to them that night. You don't want to believe me on how much I paid for my burger and fries that night. The other night, that's all on you. But you know what? You could believe me on this.

The Sabres did not need to rely on goaltending that night. They played well that night. You've done it. You've convinced me. Ring them up. Don Grado. You're the. Monday edition of The Athletic Hockey Show,

Jack Adams Award winner for the 24th of October. Where'd it go? You got a lot of stuff going on in my life, Ian. I forget things. You're too young to forget things. You're not too young to have too much going on. You're too young to forget things. Okay.

I'm sorry. I want to apologize to everyone for getting up everyone's hopes about how much food costs at the saddle dome. Sorry. We're going to wrap up the pod like we're always doing a Monday. I'm going to ask you about goaltending here. Multiple choice madness. The rapid end.

So look, there's some goalies having great starts through the season, right? Jordan Bennington and St. Louis has just been like, man, this guy looks like the guy who won the cup a couple of years ago. He's been dialed in. And look, there's some been some terrific goaltending performances early in the season. But I'm going to go to the other side of ledger and ask,

like, which of these? I'm going to list out four goalies here, Julian. Okay? that are all off to really, we're not used to seeing them with, you know, sub-900 save percentages, goals against that are north of three or four. Which of these goalies should be most concerned

about a flat start? Is it A, Mark Andre Fleury, B, Thatcher Demco, C, John Gibson, D, Jack Campbell. My pick is Jack Campbell. Because the Oilers, I think, are still a pretty good team.

They're a team that can outscore their problems. Jack Campbell just off of some of the first few performances I've seen from him just letting in a little too many goals, I think. I think my biggest thing with Jack Campbell is just I know a lot of people like to root for him

and he wears his emotions on his sleeve and there's nothing wrong with doing that and doing it within reason and I hope he's able to keep those in check when he needs them to. But considering the fact that the Oilers have paid him handsomely to be their goalie for the next few years, for him to be a real upgrade on Mike Smith. You know, yes, they're a team that could, they have Connor McDavid, they have Leon Drysail that

could score like crazy. What if it gets to a point? It happens a lot with high-powered offenses sometimes. Teams find a way to keep them in check. And if the goal tending doesn't hold up, Jack Campbell is going to get a lot of lack for it. I would be more concerned with the start of Jack Campbell here. That being said, he does play on a team that finds. a way to outscore their problems. And they do that a lot in the regular season. Yeah, Jack Campbell to start the season, 874 save percentage, 508.

Goals against. That's terrible. That's terrible. Like, yeah, I don't even know. I don't even know what else you can, you know, possibly say, then just, you know, read out those numbers and that's all you need to know. I'm going to pick a different goalie, though, okay?

Okay. I'm going to go Mark Andre Fleury. who somehow has worse numbers than Jack Campbell. We're talking 847, save percentage, 525 goals against. Here's what I'm thinking. Okay, now hear me out on, and I like Mark Andre, a lot.

You too. Class Act, great goalie, Hall of Fame credentials, all of that. You know what my takeaway from the NFL this weekend was, Julian, watching NFL? Father time came to collect on Tom Brady and Aaron Rogers. And I think he's collecting on Mark Andre Fleury. It's like he's like, anybody north of 36 come with me?

And you're like, oh, what's this ruin? It's like the grim reaper of, of, like, athletic careers. Like, honestly, don't you feel like Aaron Rogers and Tom Brady all of a sudden aged 10 years in front of your eyes? Like, you're like, what happened here? Where, like, where's the dynamic Rogers from the past? And I know he doesn't have the same receiving court, but whatever, right? Brady looks like, I mean, getting punked by Carolina. That's another podcast for another day.

But Mark Andre Fleury is the same thing. You're like, wait a minute. Where's the guy that like last, just last year got a Stanley Cup contender traded for you, made you the starter. You were like nine and two or whatever down the track. That's my concern, man. My concern is it just, the clock struck midnight on all these guys. And Mark Andre Fleury is part of it.

man that's tough man for for a guy who's good as I hope not I hope not but it is a rough start man like 847 525 GAA like that's yeah like that's not a great start to to the year like that's that's that's pretty bad I still think jack campbell's a worst pick but I I guess I just kind of thought with age too like yeah father time's undefeated but jack campbell is not it doesn't have to worry necessarily about father time right away like he's he's just not having to start the bar country it's get a five year deal yeah man you got make that work. Amazing.

All right, listen, why don't we leave it there? Why don't we ask the audience? Ask the listeners, okay? Hit us up again. If any, back to a couple things here. If any NHL arena or any stadium, to be honest, in North America has a combo that includes beer, we need to know about it.

Okay? And if they do, and if there isn't, I think we need to do a deep dive story on why isn't there. Like, why? What are we doing here as sports fans? I wonder if it's just like a serious, this could be like some serious reason. Yeah, exactly.

Like alcohol consumption. Probably. Exactly. Here's the, here's the laws that outline how you can. Anyway, yeah, probably some lame answer like that.

But hey, we want to know if there's any arenas with that. We want to know where Mike Sullivan ends up on your coach ranking right now. We want to know who's got your Jack Adams vote. your goalie, whatever, all of that. So hit us up either in the comment section. As Gentile likes to say,

like, he's like, you know, you go through a little forest and a nook, and you find, whatever. Just find the comment section. Hit us up. We read all of them. So hit us up on anything we talked about today. Tweet at us. We love that as well.

Or you can leave us, you know, we take emails, the athletic hockey show at gmail.com, all of that stuff. I want to thank everybody for listening to the Monday pot. follow us on your favorite podcast platform. Leave us a rating and review. We appreciate that. Subscribe to The Athletic Audio.

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